#shipping discourse mention

[be4utiful4byss]

flashback to the time I talked about spy x spy in a discord server and the mod was so “concerned” about me being “a filthy comshipper” that they

sent other members to interrogate and harass the shit out of me instead of dealing with it like a proper moderator should (directly and discreetly sending out punishment in the face of a problem)

sent a fucking carrd website clearly made by a fancop whenever someone got confused ??? all for giving sources if the source you’re giving is from an uncredited website by someone who doesn’t know what they’re talking about

let people keep lunging at me despite the fact I literally had to explain the definition of slapstick to them until I just left the hellhole

… keep in mind this all happened because they didn’t know the fandom at all and I called the ship toxic yaoi. because it’s toxic even if it’s goofy as shit .

[kromazque]

https://youtu.be/R80hXdU4-9o?si=fCfPqtB4BdSY0H9X

https://www.tumblr.com/iloveyoumost/736078863498723328/if-you-dare-to-rank-gwen-low-on-your-list

LOOK AT THIS COWARD WHO CANNOT ACCEPT THE TRUTH THAT HE IS A FUCKING HYPOCRITE FOR SAYING THAT HE LOVES GWEN IN THAT CRAPPY 3 HOUR VIDEO ONLY TO TRASH HER BY PUTTING HER LOW!

1: huh

2: saw that vid in my recommended. watched about an hour and got bored lol(if there's a tldw lmk). discourse, shipping discourse especially, does not interest us. and as a fellow Gwen enjoyer the whole love triangle just makes me tired lmao

3: who are you

[muwwwsky]

you know i would rather trust an adult proshipper with "disgusting" and "weird" kinks who clearly knows the difference between fiction and reality and not allowing minors to interact with them than an adult antis who stalks minors with rape and death threats because of fictional characters

[sparkling-pink-lemonade]

Saw a post of an anti saying that they are leaving AO3, as they are too uncomfortable to post their fics there now. The reason? They found out one of their long time readers was a proshipper, despite their fics having proship dni. And how "that includes silent readers too, I don't want you all looking at my content."

My brother in christ, you are posting on the fiction freedom site. The proshipping site. Dnis aren't god damn restraining orders. They are one tool in helping you display your boundaries. It's still on you to enforce your boundaries. You post something publicly, you forfeit your ability to regulate who can view your work. If you're obsessive enough, you can regulate who actually interacts with your work by stalking each person in the kudos list, comments, or bookmarks and then blocking snyone you don't like, but you do not get a say on who may silently read your posts. Not unless you private your work and only show it to specific people.

And if you don’t want proshippers to interact, get off the profic site.

[allthingswhumpyandangsty]

literally just saw another “call out” post in my fandom, “this person ships these characters together, they support fucked up things in fiction. moots, unfollow them, they’re disgusting for liking these fictional things 🤢” can we please just. not do this? especially with all that’s going on in the world recently, can we please not try to take away people’s source of comfort? who cares what fictional things a person enjoys? they’re ✨fiction✨. they’re ✨not real✨. you don’t know what battle a person is going through outside of social media. you don’t know if fandom is literally the last source of happiness they have left. you don’t know if fandom is the only thing keeping them alive right now.

ask yourself, is it really worth it? you claim to be “morally superior” by “exposing” people who find comfort in fictional things you deem morally unacceptable. but is it really worth it if your words drove a person into harming themself?

are you really being morally superior by being the reason someone hurts themself?

these characters are fiction. but the person you’re harassing in the name of being morally superior is a real person with real feelings.

if you find something that you don’t like, instead of going out of your way to harass someone, scroll past it, ignore it, mute it, block it. and focus on the things you do enjoy.

with everything that’s going on in the world right now, now is the time we need to keep fandoms safe. they’re the last source of happiness some people have left.

[carto0ncritter]

I'm sorry but I genuinely can't understand how people can look at Stolitz and Catradora and think these ships are healthy in any way, shape or form.

Stolas r*ped Blitzø. No, consent given in a life-or-death situation doesn't count

Stolas is racist towards imps, and this didn't change even when he "fell in love" with Blitzø

Stolas doesn't appreciate or respect Moxxie and Millie in the slightest (and was disappointed that his "Prince Charming" wasn't the one to rescue him)

He looks down on Blitzø and calls him things like "impish little plaything" and "his big dicked Blitzy" and doesn't stop treating him like shit even when Blitzø says loud and clear that he hates being talked down on like this (DUH)

The only thing Stolas knows about Blitzø is that he hates books and the only thing Blitzø knows about Stolas is that he's a boring bookworm. Keep in mind, the two figured this out about each other while they were kids, 25 YEARS AGO, after Blitzø was bought so that he could be Stolas' "friend" for ONE DAY

Stolas doesn't love Blitzø for Blitzø. Stolas loves the *idea* of Blitzø. The bird man wants to live a romance that is just like the romances in his cheesy novels. He wants to ride into the sunset with his one true love. He wants grand romantic gestures. He wants his "Prince Charming". Except, Blitzø isn't the type of guy for such sappy displays of affection, he never was. Especially combined with his trauma. And as soon as that other imp guy asked him to dance, Stolas not only accepted the offer, but Blitzø was no longer on his mind. And no, I don't think being drunk is proof that Stolas didn't mean what he had told Blitzø. Drunk people find it easier to say what's really on their mind after all

Blitzø fell in love with his abuser. This makes sense, actually. The guy always pushed everyone away and never got to experience true love, and now that he has the chance to be "wanted," even if the "relationship" is toxic, he finds it hard to let it go

As for Catradora, the things I wanna say about this ship have already been said throughout the years, but it all boils down to these things:

Catra mentally, emotionally and physically abused Adora

Catra had no problem ending the whole entire universe if it meant she'd finally be better than Adora

Catra was a war criminal and a fascist

Catra was responsible for what happened to Glimmer's mom and never apologized, let alone faced consequences

Their relationship was toxic even when they were kids

They were both raised by Shadow Weaver and were the only ones in the Horde who saw her as a mother figure, thus making the ship straight up incest, with even the official source material calling them sisters (adoptive siblings ARE REAL SIBLINGS!!!)

Catra got exactly what she wanted in the end (the girl she's always been obsessed with and dependent on) and, once again, faced 0 consequences for her actions

The show (and C//A stans) fetishizes abuse. As a SA survivor, I felt physically sick during the final episode, where the abuser ends up with her victim/sister and they kiss

In short, these ships are disgusting and the lgbt community deserves better representation

[dead-pidoves-dirt-takes]

I’m literally begging y’all not to disclose your trauma in order to justify and validate your tastes in fiction.

The people who are or you fear are going to get on your case about your fantasies, taste in fiction or how you identify? Do not give a shit about you. Or the trauma you have faced. They don’t give a shit about other trauma survivors either, and they don’t care about how callous and shitty they seem. All they care is about controlling and policing people they think they might have a sliver of power over.

You can block or clown or do whatever you want. (I recommend blocking, don’t feed the trolls) But please for the love of god do not tell random strangers on the internet who have absolutely no business knowing you’re traumatized and have X Y and Z mental illnesses from it.

Don’t reveal yourself as vulnerable, don’t paint that target on your back, and don’t give people access to possible triggers that may hurt you.

[sarafangirlart]

I’m a firm believer that ancient ppl came up with better crack ships than modern ppl. Achilles and Medea? They literally never actually interacted in mythology and are just kinda mentioned by Hera and that was that. But even then… Both emotionally fucked up demigods with severe anger issues who became extremely cruel and violent after a traumatic event? Yeah I can see it.

Poseidon and Odysseus? Y’all would ship single cell organisms if they were both male. Seriously, zero creativity here.

[be4utiful4byss]

over here going to the theatre with my mom and I feel bad talking about the movie because I know it’s going to leave me tottering into shipping discourse that would result in me getting ‘called out’ by a 30yo cishet lady

[cakemadeofbacon]

Listen hardcore heightseeing truther here (i’m making that the ship name for crewxgerry💀) but i think the theory that gerry would find michael shelley annoying if they met is so funnily untrue to me .Like gerry keay ?The same guy who freaks out when someone yells at him ?The same guy who stopped beating up leitner because he felt bad and lied to himself claiming that “that couldn’t have been him” ?the guy who starts an episode with “piss off jon” and ends it with “can call me gerry ?all my friends call me that🥺” my girl folds SO easily

[muwwwsky]

"Proshitters only hate us because we don't like their disgusting pedo and incest ships!!" Nah lil bro we hate you because you stalk us, threaten us, spread disinformation about us, and wish for victims of sexual abuse to relive their trauma because they ship fictional characters. We don't care if you're uncomfortable with comship pairings as long as you don't touch us or try to harm us. Period

[petrock42clone]

I swear to God, arguments made by proshippers to justify their degeneracy will never cease to amaze me with how stupid they can get.

"But it's not real." Doesn't matter, it's still gross to portray that shit in a positive light.

"I wouldn't support this in real life." If you're not gonna support it in real life then why the hell would you support it in fiction? Just admit you're a creep and get it over with.

"I use it as a way to cope with trauma." I don't want to call those people liars, but nine times out of ten I only ever see them saying this when they get called out for it. And if it's meant for coping, then why do most pieces of proship media glorify and portray it as a good thing when it shouldn't be seen that way? Also, I don't wanna be that guy, but maybe you shouldn't post that sort of thing publicly when actual creeps/criminals could use that for gross purposes.

"Fiction doesn't affect reality." Tell that to every piece of government propaganda ever released. Also, proship content does have an effect on people, especially young kids. I was exposed to a proship undertale fan blog when I was nine, and for at least two years I thought that shit was ok.

"So you support harassment towards proshippers?" Harassment is bad no matter who it's directed towards, so no I do not support harassment towards proshippers. Though I'll be completely honest and say that I don't feel sympathetic towards proshippers either.

"You're just a puritan." Dude if I were the puritan you claim I am, I probably wouldn't be ok with writing gore/torture scenes in some of my fanfics. And before you start yapping, I make it clear in those fics that those acts are not ok and are not meant to be seen in a good light.

Proshippers/Neutrals do not interact. Try arguing with me about why this shit is ok and the most you'll get out of me is a block.

[patchwork-crow-writes]

No, actually, you get the Kralsei "incest" rant now, I've decided.

The ship being considered incest or incest-adjacent is largely a result of several assumptions that are being made about Ralsei, and to a lesser extent about Kris as well. For this to work, you have to assume the following:

Ralsei is modeled primarily on Asriel

All Boss Monsters of a certain age look identical to one another and are related to one another

Kris had absolutely no hand in Ralsei's creation

Kris is heavily uncomfortable with Ralsei's existence

The entire implied romantic undertones of Ralsei's feelings towards Kris were designed to be incestuous from the start

In order, I shall deconstruct and debunk these. Very long post below the read more, you have been warned.

While it is true that Ralsei does share some superficial similarities with Asriel, he's actually much, MUCH more similar to Kris in many ways. All he shares with Asriel is an anagrammed name and a passing likeness. They're not similar in terms of personality, and that goes regardless of which Asriel we're even talking about. Many people associate Ralsei with Undertale's incarnation of Asriel, who doesn't even exist in the same universe. Any similarities between the two are inferred entirely by the player, aided and abetted by the game making these subtle hints that they're "connected" in some way. Yeah, about as connected as Undertale is to Deltarune. To take this a step further, consider Kris and Frisk. No-one is conflating these two, not in a million years. And yet look, they share an anagrammed name and a passing likeness, so they're basically the same person, aren't they? I mean, we both control them through the SOUL, and they're both protagonists of games made by Toby Fox, so if anything they're more similar to each other than Ralsei is to Asriel. But of course, that's utterly absurd, and we all know it. *

I refer you once again to the humans. And before you tell me "they all obviously look different to each other" - and of course I'm not saying they're not different when they obviously are - consider how a monster might look at these humans if you placed them side-by-side. Pale-ish skin, brown hair, no obvious gender markers, similar height profiles. Any monster who's not intimately familiar with any of the humans in question might perhaps confuse them. And so it is with us and Boss Monsters. Just because Ralsei and Asriel share certain characteristics common to ALL boss monsters does not make them the same, or even similar, to each other. You only have to look at the sprites for the two side-by-side to see that there are plenty of differences between them. And as for Deltarune's Asriel? We haven't even seen this guy, we have NO idea what he looks like. We're just making assumptions again based on incomplete information. And if we assume that all boss monsters are related in some way due to how similar they might appear, then what does that make Toriel and Asgore, two boss monsters who have canonically produced offspring in both continuities? I don't need to say it, do I? *

It should be clarified here that I don't just mean Kris consciously made Ralsei at any point, either as an imaginary friend or monster-sona or what-have-you, but that Ralsei's creation as a darkner is somehow linked to how Kris saw themself/wished to be seen in their childhood. The most obvious piece of evidence supporting this is the horned headband that Toriel mentions at the end of Chapter 1. It's heavily implied that Kris would wear it so that they could be the same as their adoptive family, before they supposedly lost it somewhere down the line. It's not too much of a leap in logic to infer from this that Ralsei was created from that headband, at least in part. That said, there are certain aspects of Ralsei that don't exactly fit this neat mold, and I am willing to concede this point if it turns out that the headband thing is a massive misdirect. Nonetheless, I would say that the evidence we currently have to hand points more resolutely towards Ralsei being an aspect of Kris than of him being an aspect of Asriel. *

So I'm just going to say it: WE DON'T KNOW. Because Kris is our protagonist and POV character, it's incredibly easy to forget that we know next-to-nothing about the inner workings of their mind. They have no dialogue except what we tell them to say, and anything we CAN say about them is inferred from how other characters respond to their tone of voice. Of course, we can infer that Kris doesn't fully consider Ralsei a good friend based on his tea healing 60HP, but that on its own doesn't really tell us anything of much substance because you can't exactly cross-reference those numbers against a handy chart or anything - it's all context-dependent. We do at least know that they are comfortable enough around Ralsei to play the odd prank on him, which we know is something they used to do a lot of with Noelle and Asriel, two people they were close to growing up. They will, of their own volition, interpret our instruction to "take a bite" of Ralsei's dummy's clothes to make it look like they're kissing it on the cheek. I don't think that's something you would do with somebody who freaked you out on an existential level, or somebody who reminded you of your brother. Again, I am willing to concede this point should it turn out my interpretation of these clues is incorrect. *

Ask yourself this: What would Kralsei being incest - or incest-adjacent, or pseudo-incest, or whatever - contribute to the characters of Kris and Ralsei, to our relationship to them as players, or to the narrative or wider themes of Deltarune as a whole? I'll tell you - nothing whatsoever. The most such an interpretation can EVER say is that we as players are so easily manipulated by window-dressing and flattery that we will, knowingly or otherwise, romantically pair two characters together who are related in some way, shape or form. And let's say that this IS the intent behind their dynamic - all it amounts to, all it can ever amount to, is a great bit gotcha from Toby Fox himself. Haha, I tricked you into shipping two characters who are secretly related, isn't that fucked up of you? Somehow, I don't think that was his intention with this, it seems such a petty and small-minded thing for somebody who we know is capable of creating moving, thought-provoking, horrifying and beautiful stories. He's better than that. It turns the entire thing into a glorified skill-check: are YOU smart enough to identify that you're being encouraged to engage in incest-shipping, or are you a dumbass who only sees what's presented to you and doesn't ask questions about it? Contrary to popular belief, we're not all 5-D chess grandmasters, and shockingly not everybody is going to interpret the clues in this way. All it does is make people who DO earnestly ship Kralsei feel bad for something the game WAS ENCOURAGING THEM TO DO. Which would be fine if we were playing, say, Spec Ops: The Line, which is very much built around that conceit. And hey, if you wanna feel shitty about shipping two characters together in an extremely unhealthy and harmful manner, Snowgrave is right there. The difference here is that the weird route is A) completely optional, B) difficult if not impossible to accidentally trigger, C) completely derails the game's story and emotional beats, and D) doesn't rely on the shock value of surprise incest to carry it. Snowgrave actually has something INTERESTING to say about the nature of former friends, forced romance, a player's control over a protagonist and how people can be manipulated to do horrendous things by proxy. All the incest interpretation of Kralsei has to offer is that... it's incest, and you're a bit yucky for partaking in it. I'll wrap up this point by saying: incest is a very emotive topic and produces visceral emotional reactions in a lot of people. It's very clever that people have looked critically at Kralsei and observed the possibility, the interpretation, that this could be what's happening, but if the aim in doing so was to promote debate and analysis on the topic, I'm afraid it's only succeeded in doing the exact opposite, causing people to disengage from it entirely. And I strongly believe that's going to severely harm the state of discourse going into Deltarune's future chapters, because how are you going to talk about the game and what it's trying to say if you keep dodging a major part of it for fear of being thought of as pro-incest? It sucks if you're invested in the ship because no-one wants to discuss it, it sucks if you're NOT invested in the ship because it's not likely going to just evaporate come chapter 3, it sucks for everybody.

Now, having said all of that, I am not here to convince you that Kralsei is the truth and the life and what-have-you - you can read any of my other essays on the topic if you want to be preached to in that manner. You're valid and based for not liking Kralsei for any reason, and I wholeheartedly respect your opinion. All I'm trying to say here is that, calling it incest because "Ralsei is/looks like Asriel" or "Kris hates Ralsei" or whatever doesn't do anything for anyone. There are plenty of valid reasons not to like the ship, I just don't think that this is one of them.

Rant over, have a lovely day :D

[outofpocketonepiecethoughts]

I want to preface what I’m about to say by saying that I have nothing against any ship. I have nothing against SanZo/ZoSan and even enjoy some of the fics and fanart. More importantly, I have absolutely nothing against people who like ships that I don’t like.

But goddammit why is it that if I like even one piece of ZoSan art it ends up being my entire dash. I want to see ZoLu. Sometimes I admittedly get a bit annoyed by it because I just wanna see LuZo and the only thing on my dash is ZoSan and LawLu. I don’t wanna block those tags because there’s a lot of talented artists posting there but I sometimes wish that LuZo was more popular.

Sorry for venting and being a bit negative. I don’t want to hate on ships I’m not as into or be super complainy but you know what I want to vent a bit so I’m gonna vent.

I also just don’t really get the popularity those two ships have. I get why people like SanZo. It’s got a lot of drama and they do have some pretty gay moments, but I have a hard time understanding why it’s so much more popular than LuZo. Like, the incredible devotion involved with Zoro and Luffy is insane. I get LuLaw less. Like, dressrosa made me get why people ship them, but I don’t quite understand the popularity. I don’t know maybe I just prefer to have more material to work with in terms of ships compared what there is with LuLaw. It’s like, I kind of get why people ship it after dressrosa but I still don’t really get the appeal. And I don’t really get why it seems to be quite a bit more popular than Zolu.

Again, I’m not hating on other people for liking what they like. Your preference is yours and mine is mine. I just sometimes get tired of seeing so much stuff for ships I’m not really into instead of what I really want to see.

Sorry for the rant, I just felt like I needed to get this out so I can go back to being a normal member of the fandom and just talking about things I like instead of being negative.

I probably won’t post about this stuff again because it is pretty negative, but just this once I’m gonna let myself be a bit negative.

[averysherwood]

A guide to determine who are siblings and who are not on the example of TOH

Follow the instructions below and don't harass people for nothing

1. Do they have the same parents?

Yes? Congratulations, they are siblings! ✅

2. Do they have one same parent?

Yes? Cool, they're siblings! ✅

3. Is one of them adopted by another's parent(s) / Are both of them adopted into the same family?

Yes? No questions, they are siblings! ✅

4. Do they have the same parental figure who raised them / Do they call each other brother/sister?

Yes? Then... It's complicated. They're not siblings in the usual sense, but it's still really wierd to see them in a romantic way, even if they don't have any other problems (king x luz clearly does have other problems, don't get me wrong)

5. Is none of the above list suitable for characters in question?

I have some news for you, they are NOT siblings! ❌

You can headcanon them whatever you want, but it doesn't give you any rights to harass people who doesn't see them in the way you see!

[thatsailormoonkinnie]

Can we just chill??

ok, so, this is my first time being in a big fandom that isn’t like dead, in a WHILE. Safe to say, I forgot how toxic and draining it can be. Like I’m just trying to enjoy things I like and hang out with people who just wanna vibe. But like all the mis-tagged posts and the yelling at each other (mostly over shipping) is just so tiring. I don’t post much, if at all, but like I just need to say something at this point.

I’m a shipper. I love shipping. But omg can we stop trying to kill each other!? Like maybe it’s cause I’m a multi-shipper, but like Ive never understood shipping wars or hating on other ships. For example I don’t like Zaundads (nothing against Zaundads shippers), it’s not my thing, I personally see them as brothers because they are meant to be parallels for Vi and Jinx. But that doesn’t mean I go out of my way to bother Zaundads shippers when they’re doing nothing but enjoying their ship!! Like I was happy for them that they got more content in 2x07! And if for whatever reason you really just CANT..just block it…don’t make that someone else’s problem…?

And the Christian Linke thing. I will admit, at first I was heated too. As an ace person who’s favorite ship is MelJayVik (at first just JayVik but the pipeline swallowed me lol) I didn’t like that part of my identity was being used to invalidate or villainize something I like. However, looking more into the situation has calmed me down a bit, especially seeing how aggressive people are being. Yes, I think Viktor being ace was implemented weirdly and could’ve been handled better. But that doesn’t make Christian some spiteful, evil, homophobic, SoB. Like…could he have revealed it sooner or made it more upfront in the show? Sure. But I think treating him like the devil for that discredits how important he was to the making of Arcane and how hard he fought it in the first place. Like it’s fine to be mad at him, or disagree but, remember, he’s just a guy. A person; we can very easily forget that online.

It just feels like every time I show up to this fandom, I’ll be happy one minute and grimacing as people argue the next. Like I know one post from a rando who never posts anything isn’t gonna stop fandom toxicity. But like can we just all chill out for a minute and think about what you’re arguing about. We all love this show…so why are we yelling at each other..we are the same thing different font fr fr lol. Like I’m just tired at people yelling at each other for…having a good time..? Enjoying what they enjoy…? Existing?

Sorry for kinda long incoherent mini rant. Don’t wanna bring anyone’s mood down. Have a good day nerds. Have fun!!