#Tim drake centric
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Press, holding a microphone too close to Tim’s face at a gala: how are you settling in at the Wayne’s now you’re officially adopted?
Tim, with a confused face: What do you mean? I’m not adopted.
Press: ..What? No, you were adopted-
Tim: Bruce gave birth to me.
Bruce, behind Tim, nodding: Obviously.
#tim drake#tim drake centric#tim drake robin#batbros#batfam#batfamily#batkids#batman#dc batfam#bruce wayne#good dad bruce wayne#brucie wayne#incorrect batfamily quotes#incorrect quotes#incorrect quotations#timdrakewhumping
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Ra’s calling Tim. Joker dead on the floor. Batdad in the car. Slender man in the back. Knee high converse. Try diet cok sign. Ai can never replace this.
Late night shenanigans
#jason todd#red hood#red robin#batfam#dc fanart#dc universe#dc#tim drake#dc joker#batman#tim drake centric
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Title: Ain't No Compass, Ain't No Map
Author: ebjameston
Fandom(s): Batman - All Media Types, Batman (Comics)
Link: https://archiveofourown.org/works/38048365/chapters/95037589
Visibility status: Account Only
Update Status: Complete
Chapter(s): 9/9
Word Count: 51,863
Summary:
"CPS Agent, pointing at Tim Drake: We need to take him with us Red Hood: He's fine where he is CPS: He's a minor Hood: Timbo, you a minor? Tim: Can't prove it CPS: I mean, I can. There are records – Tim, who has just finishing hacking CPS to remove his own file: Oh really, tell me more about these records
+++
A CPS agent gets sent to investigate a tip that Tim Drake has been abandoned by his parents and is living with the Red Hood. The CPS agent leaves with no Tim Drake, a date with Red Hood's lieutenant, and an intern who's promising to fix the IT systems at his office.
It's a weird day for Theo."
Author’s tumblr: @ebjameston
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Tim begins to distance himself from his family after Damian becomes Robin.
It was obvious in the way he ran off to rescue Bruce, but that was more of a physical thing at the end of the day. He was desperate and had lost any kind of safety net and support he had after Dick threatened Arkham and how badly he hurt Alfred with his instance that Bruce was alive.
Either way he was going to get Bruce back, if not because he felt like he was an aimless, nothing human being without Batman then there was that he wanted to be believed.
Then Dick handed over Robin to Damian who at that point genuinely despised Tim, though there was also a level of jealously in the young Wayne’s mind at the intelligence and analytical Tim.
It was then that Tim decided he would bring Bruce back and then do his own thing, outside of Robin and outside of Batman.
He clearly had done his job hadn’t he? Sure Bruce was dead, but Dick was acting as Batman and that Batman had a Robin, so his reasoning for being Robin was extinguished.
Tim brings Bruce back and the older man praises and thanks him for several days and then, like everything else, the attention moves away. It goes to him connecting with Damian on a vigilante level and catching up on the last several months of him being ‘dead’. It goes to Jason who, now that he’s lost his foster father has decided that maybe he could try a little harder after all.
It goes to everyone and anyone other than Tim and this time? That’s actually the plan.
Tim isn’t as good of a hacker as Barbara, but she’s basically a god at it so compared to others he might as well be master level, just not against her. This he uses to shift around peoples schedules so Alfred has no choice but to let him go to school on his own (Tim may have also invented an early morning ‘club’ that was totally legit and not at all a fabrication). He makes it so when Dick is over or Jason takes the rare opportunity to visit he had to work at WE or DI, something important he can’t neglect.
He never has to walk Ace or Titus because he’s busy with his team mates.
Team mates who think he’s busy helping out Batman.
Tim still does work as a hero, but it’s entirely through his businesses after a while. A few times he has no choice but to go out in a boring black suit with a full face mask and hoodie. It’s got nothing on it, no symbols or gadgets. Nothing to connect him to anyone.
He starts with the homeless, dishing out vaccines like candy without even doing a campaign to showcase it.
Then he changes Bruce’s rather naive approach to orphanages and makes it so every single child who is put through is given a small amount of funding. He makes it so kids have more chance to stay with siblings, makes sure everyone who even so much as enters the ground of a orphanage have a real background check and sure the adoption rate drops, but so does the missing kids and DV cases.
Tim steals over fifty million from people like Luther and Penguin and all kinds of corrupt rich assholes for the majority of the funding and not even a cent of it is traced back to Wayne or Drake businesses. Whiles he’s digging into Lex be manages to get enough evidence to put a sizeable dent in his reputation, even if Lex manages to smooch a fair bit of it back.
He’s manages to take out a large sized trafficking ring and helps get the victims into a real recovery home that he hand picks out security for.
Later, as in a few days afterward, he discovers a dog meat farm and everyone medical veterinary student suddenly finds themself free of student loans and debt and with multiple work opportunities available and volunteer work being down right pleased for.
Tim knows he’s being noticed but given that he basically lives in his office in the heart of the city, he isn’t there to hear his old teammates and ‘family’ talk about the mysterious Dread.
Dread who was named that after a report came out about a theory of an unknown hacker or ‘cyber vigilante’ who was stealing money and information from rich folk and giving it to the poor, giving all of the 1% dread that he would hit them next.
The exact quote was ‘Those with money deeper than their pockets dread the hackers next moves. And they should feel that dread as a warning for this Robin Hood like legend seems to be getting braver.’
Dick was sure the hacker would have been called Robin if he hadn’t chosen that name already, to which Barbara responded with grumbles and growl because she couldn’t find anything other than holes and traps left by the hacker. It was like they knew her every move before she even made it!
Tim, obvious to his growing reputation until it fully took off, hadn’t even considered that his actions would be framed a threat by Batman. He would say it was because he didn’t think Bruce would ever really target him like that, but in actuality it’s because he knew Bruce was one of the few good rich folk. Surely he would be on the side of a secret vigilante hacker trying to use horrible people to do good? He embraced Dread quickly and was happy he make the rich squirm and brought a sense of hope to people, it was just like Robin but instead of them being safe and given light they were given a peace of mind in a mix of revenge and justice.
What Tim doesn’t know is that Bruce is still too far into his whole image of black and white, good and evil, that he tends to forget there’s grey areas.
At least Jason is on the side of Dread, even if he still thinks the myth of a story is just that, a myth.
It’s when Tim blows up a bank when everyone has gone home for the night just so people will find the underground money ring that and he visits the manner to get a few things that he hears them talking about it.
By that point it’s been around two years since he dropped Robin and as usual Dick always greets him with a look of a desperate puppy, “Tim! Hi, you’re here. I haven’t seen you in months, how have you been?”
Tim smiles at Dick even if he hasn’t gotten over his anger at his oldest brother and moves to sit at the breakfast table with everyone (Alfred, Bruce, Jason and Damian).
“Good. Busy, we��ve had a lot of donations lately.”
Jason snorts, “No shit. Isn’t Wayne Enterprise one of the few ones not hit by Dread?”
Bruce grumbles and shakes his head, “I wouldn’t say that. They’ve managed to get into our system and completely changed the Jason Project.”
Jason grins and laughs happily, “you mean improved! Crime Ally is doing great now. Not the best, but still a fuck of a lot better.”
Smiling at the man who once beat him to an inch of his life, Tim takes a sip of his tea and casually says, “You’re welcome.”
The whole table goes quiet as Tim continues to casually sip his tea.
The silence carries for a total minute before Bruce puts down his cup and leans forward with a slight growl in his voice, “Explain.”
“Explain what?”
Bruce stands over his son even from halfway down the table and very obviously tries to calm himself with a deep breath, “What do you mean ‘you’re welcome’?”
Tim makes an ‘oh’ expression before cocking his head to the side in confusion, “I was the one who fixed the Jason Project? Wait, did you guys not realise I’m Dread?”
Damian shouts out a ‘what?!’ That makes Titus jump and Tim laughs under his breath, “What did you think I was doing?”
“Running the business! Not stealing from people and black mailing politicians!”
It’s Tim’s turn to growl now and he stands up himself with a glare at Bruce that is as close as any of them have gotten to the famed Bat-Glare, “Are you fucking kidding me? Like are you a Tully kidding me with that horse shit?”
Bruce looks stunned and Alfred doesn’t even tell him not to swear.
Tim slams his chair into the table.
“What the fuck else would I be doing, Bruce? I’m not Robin, that was taken from me, so what else was I gonna do? I finished my job, not only keeping you from killing anyone but bringing you back, so I had do pick something else. I’m not stealing from the rich, I’m stealing from selfish cunts who ruin peoples lives for no reason and giving it to people like Jason. So, don’t you fucking yell at me and don’t try to make me feel bad for this, not when I’ve done more in two years than you ever have and- don’t you fucking speak Dick, not when you were the one who took my place here away from me! Now, I have a trafficking ring I need to expose so good. Fucking. Day.”
Jason is the only one who follows him.
#batfam#tim drake#bat family#dc comics#batfamily#dc universe#Tim Drake is NOT red Robin#dc#tim drake is a menace#damian wayne#dick grayson#bruce wayne#jason todd#tim drake centric#hacker Tim Drake
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Here’s a little rant about something, I‘m sure, is only bothering me,
but recently I have (out of funsies) searched up opinions on about what hypothetical superpowers the Batfam would have. And there were pretty cool ones.
Like Dick being able to fly,
Damian being able to talk to animals or having actual assassin powers,
Bruce not having to nurture himself (sleeping, eating etc.),
Jason being able to see ghosts,
etc,etc…
But then comes Tim.
What do you mean Tim‘s only power is being smart?? Every interpretation of him is either just him being smart or being a good detective, like, he’s already these things without superpowers😭
There was one with the idea of him being a lie detector and I was like ‚okay yeah that’s pretty cool‘ but then I looked at the post and all the ideas for the other members were so detailed and throughly researched and his was only ‚not being able to lied to.‘ AND THAT‘S IT.
Is that the middle-child syndrome or do people lack creativity? Idk😔
#dcu#tim drake#bruce wayne#batman#jason todd#batfam#damian wayne#dc robin#red robin#red hood#nightwing#Dont worry I haven’t forgot about Steph Cass and Duke#rant post#dc comics#batfamily#tim drake centric
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A fluffy + angst one shot of Tim and Damian, no trigger warnings, hope you enjoy!
"Geraniums"
Tim could think for hours, but he would never come up with an answer to why Damian suddenly tried getting along with him.
He supposed only Damian knew the answer to that.
But still, even if it was odd, Tim figured the kid had decided that he didn't want to fight anymore, so neither did Tim.
So there they sat, at a family outing in a park, Tim sat with his legs criss crossed in the grass as he watched Dick and Jason play fight, tumbling around in the grass, which was gold entertainment if you started bets on who would win (It was always Dick, but nevertheless).
The girls stayed out of the grass, Steph talking Cass's ear off as they swung together, Cass never minded, just smiling and nodding, adding in her own whispery words every now and again.
Duke watched the fight, but glanced between siblings every few minutes, seemingly checking on them, Tim thinks he was a great addition to the family.
And over on a bench, together sat Bruce and Alfred, making small talk as they watched over everyone, most likely making sure they didn't burn the park down.
Damian however, sat in the grass at Tim's side, something the teen took pride in.
Take that Dick.
He had thought to himself, he didn't really have anything against Dick, though the man had been the reason Tim hadn't got coffee today, so if Tim was stealing the youngest one's attention away from Dick, well who's to really say.
But suddenly Damian stands, Tim glances up at the now standing child, but Damian just pads off.
No one else seems to pay attention to the action, but Tim does, he can't help from wondering where Damian's going, watching him walk away, though he doesn't follow after the younger one.
Tim thinks for a second, Damian was probably going off to play somewhere else. Then he remembered it was Damian.
He ponders for a few minutes on where Damian had left to, stuck in his own curiosity.
But then he returned, Tim peered at him questioningly, and Damian held something out to Tim.
It was a Geranium.
Tim waited, but Damian didn't just push it into his hands like always, Damian waited for Tim to take it put of his hands himself.
So Tim does, holding it up to the sun, watching the way the maroon petals shine in the light.
"Huh..thanks kid."
Damian smiles at Tim's words, nodding pleasantly.
Damian seemed happier that Tim accepted the present, it was a relief that Damian was still in such a good mood.
Tim smiles back, ruffling the younger's hair.
Damian doesn't pull away or shout like he normally would. Opting to stay, even seeming glad.
It confused Tim, but it was a nice confusion, so he stayed silent, letting the comfortable atmosphere wash over them.
The day moves fast, everyone having fun, but when they make it home, Tim realizes he forgot the flower at the park.
Though he supposes it is just a flower after all.
But when they get home Damian's mood sours.
A frown set on his small face. He brushes past Jason quietly.
"Hey, Dami-"
Tim had begun calling out, only cut off by a door clicking shut, Damian's bedroom door, as he ignored Tim...
Tim didn't know why Damian was so upset now.
Jason let's out a whistle.
"Damn, what did you do to piss off your number one fan?"
Jason was amused, joking, but it wasn't amusing to Tim.
They had just started to fix their relationship, why did this have to happen. Maybe Damian just changed his mind.
But as the day finishes and the week continues, Damian doesn't cheer up, only becoming his irritable past self.
And Tim decides he's seen enough.
★
Damian was upset, everyone had to know, he was aware of just how terribly he was hiding it.
Drake didn't want to be his brother and that was fine, he just had to let the older leave.
He wouldn't stop him if Drake didn't want him to.
"Damian, we need to talk."
Damian had to admit he was surprised when one day Drake walked up to him, in the living room.
"Yes, Drake?"
Damian prompted, his tone professional, he thought it would be better, thought Drake would enjoy this tone more, but it only seemed to upset him.
"I want to know what's wrong, why are you being a brat again?"
Drake probably shouldn't have worded it that way, and Drake probably knows it too, and just doesn't care, doesn't care about you, stop trying.
Damian pushed all of his thoughts away.
"You disposed of your Geranium."
Damian had informed, as if Drake didn't already know that.
Damian clenched his hands at Drake's next words, his knuckled turning white.
"That's what all of this is about? Damian it's just a flower."
To hear that stung more than Damian thought it would.
"It is not. It is a Geranium, those symbolize siblings, I gave it to you for that reason, I had assumed you left it for that reason. I know I'm not the ideal choice of brother, you don't have to pretend."
After Damian explained Tim fell silent, and Damian just stood, waiting in the quiet, like he had done hundreds of times before.
Although, Damian was confused, Tim had been silent for awhile now, looking almost distraught, it was an uncomfortable look to see on his elder brother.
"I did not know that. Damian, of course you're my little brother. I thought you knew you always were."
Tim spoke through a borderline sorrowful sigh. And Damian couldn't believe his ears.
"And don't talk about yourself like that."
Tim reminds, adding on to his sentence.
Damian can't stand the feeling of embarrassment that washes over him as he listens to Tim.
Was Damian really that ignorant? Not realizing that Tim hadn't even known what it meant to him.
Of course Tim wouldn't know, Damian never told him, not even once.
His face is dusted red, he knows it, but at this point, he isn't sure how much he cares.
He crashes into his older brother with a tight hug, rivaling one of Dick's.
"This never happened, by the way."
Damian murmurs into the fabric of Tim's shirt, a warm smile creeps onto Tim's expression.
"Sure thing, squirt."
---------------------------------
Word count: 1060
#dc#damian wayne#batboys#batfam#dick grayson#batfam angst#batfamily#tim drake#jason todd#dc fanfiction#damian wayne fanfiction#tim drake and damian wayne#tim and damian#timothy drake#tim drake fanfiction#damian and tim#damian and tim centric#damian wayne and tim drake centric#damian wayne and tim drake#damian centric#damian wayne centric#tim centric#tim drake centric
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I might write a fic that’s just Tim running around being a little shit.
Like imagine if Timmy started to go on like hacking forums in his teens bc he was bored and then he just became a little troll on the internet for shits and giggles.
It starts as a stupid dare one of his friends makes him, “I bet you can’t hack into the GCPD database” and Tim’s has had no fucking chill ever.
Then it slowly spirals until he becomes a well known troll on the internet. He has a distinctive tag with his hacking as well. He posted details important politicians doing shady shit, drug cartels, human trafficking gangs. Like every weirdo on the internet wants to kill him and Tim finds it hilarious.
He’s like a part time info broker for the criminal underworld
Until the red hood reached out to him for info and he seems weirdly familiar
Edit: I did write a fic abt this :)
Uhhh I gave timmy a gun so you're legally obliged to read about it now
#tim drake centric#tim drake#jason todd#bruce wayne#batman#batfam#dcu#red robin#red hood#dc robin#jason todd fic rec
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Normal Person: *sees Death Note* I like this anime, I will recommend it to a friend
Tim Drake: This anime is genius. I will recreate the exploding drawer to hide my secret files
Bruce: I feel like I should be concerned but I'm just glad you decided to recreate the drawer and not the diary.
#bruce wayne and tim drake#tim drake#tim drake is a menace#ao3#ao3 fanfic#tim drake wayne#tim drake dc#tim drake deserves better#tim drake centric#tim drake needs a hug#tim drake my beloved#everyone needs a hug#bruce wayne#bruce wayne is trying#bruce wayne and dick grayson#dick grayson is a good brother#dick grayson#jason todd deserves better#jason todd#bruce#babs#cass#jason todd is red hood#red hood#tim drake is robin#dc robin#robin dc#nightwing#batfamily#red robin
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Jason: If you die in the same place you were born is your net movement zero?
Dick: That's a worrisome thing to ask when you're standing in the grave you were "re-born" from.
Jason: No one's allowed to be curious these days.
Chapter 13 up now. Mind the tags.
#jason todd#dick grayson#bruce wayne#tim drake#jason todd centric#tim drake centric#jason todd is red hood#tim drake is robin#titans tower au#fanfic#dc fanfic#batman and robin#mind the tags#heavy content
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it's important for me that you all know i have a wip that i'm working on titled "Tim and Duke vs The Illuminati" and i can't decide if it should be a oneshot or a short 4-5 chapter fic
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If the Batfam went to the beach I'm pretty sure both Tim and Duke would try and stay out of the sun as much as possible because they wouldn't want to be 'burnt to a crisp'.
Tim, because his body hasn't experienced sunlight in so long and he's granted to actually burn to a crisp. And Duke because he doesn't want to get any darker than he already is.
#batman#batfamily#duke thomas#duke thomas centric#tim drake#tim drake centric#same excuse#diffrent-ish fonts#fr a certified black person response#I hc that Tim is pasty af but looks good with it
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“Don’t make me do this..” I muttered to nobody, sitting alone in my room at three AM, “I can’t believe I’m being forced into this!” as I open another word document, titling it with a Mitski lyric.
#mitski#mitski my beloved#tim drake centric#tim drake#tim drake robin#addict tim drake#batbros#batfam#batfamily#batkids#batman#dc batfam#ao3#ao3 writer#ao3 author#ao3 fanfic#batfic#tim drake fic#timdrakewhumping#jason todd#bat family#batdad#fic ideas#i can’t write#jason todd red hood#the batfamily#wayne family
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I saw the Pic while looking for other references
And I was like- "this is so tim and dami coded"
Ref:
#batfam#batfamily headcanons#batfamily#batfam headcanons#batman#tim drake#tim drake centric#damian wayne centric#damian wayne#get along shirt
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Title: The Drakes Spoiled Brat. (im sorry dad)
Author: Yellow_sprouts
Fandom(s): Batman - All Media Types, DCU, DC Extended Universe, DCU (Comics)
Link: https://archiveofourown.org/works/55276708/chapters/140220793
Visibility status: Anyone
Update Status: Incomplete
Chapter(s): 16/?
Word Count: 95,434
Summary:
"Tim Drake died at seventeen, his family long broken beyond repair. A Cuckoo finally rid from the nest.
But when he wakes up in his time, just a year after the Graysons death and appearance of the first Robin. Tim wouldnt let his family suffer again, even if it meant he couldnt join them.
Bruce Wayne is not "Brucie Wayne" Tim Drake is not "Timothy Drake"
They are both personas, a front to prevent people from looking at whats really under the surface. But sooner or later Tim should have known Gotham being a city of secrets, nothing stays buried forever. Especially not when the bats get involved with their trashy next door neighbor whose behavior seems more and more contriditory.
Tim had saved them all more times than he could count, maybe this time they could return the favor."
Author's tumblr: @batfambrainrotbeloved
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Tim who does crochet.
It’s Dick who is given the first gift, long before Tim is Robin and even before he knows who Robin is.
It was simply because he was a kind kid who had been there to witness something horrible and wanted to comfort the poor boy he saw sobbing off two lost loved ones.
Little Tim walked up to Dick with the crochet elephant that was admittedly a little funky looking and held it up to him without making eye contact. He had hidden the small plushie from his parents lest they disapprove of his hobby, just like they did with drawing and skating.
Dick had beamed happily and held onto the toy, saying it was so cute and how Tim should be so happy to have it.
Tim had frowned and shook his head, “It’s for you, Mister Grayson. It’s Tifa.”
Never had Tim seen someone so in awe of his creation as he did in that moment and it made him beam just like Dick had been.
Once Dick took the little elephant into his hands Tim had bolted away.
Bruce was next, being gifted a big fluffy jumper on his first birthday after loosing Jason. It was a soft, light green with too long sleeves that went over his ass. It was big, far too big, and thick enough that it might even be too hot in autumn.
He didn’t wear it for a while, mainly because he ignored the big wrapped present Tim had left in his room out of guilt and shame and even a little frustration.
When he opened it up he put it on and promptly broke down, finding the feeling more similar to a hug than he thought something non-hug could get.
He wore it in front of Tim once to show he appreciated it and then wore it whenever he was injured.
Steph got a few things, mainly tops and one big blanket that he gave her after they reconnected when she came back. It had been his way of saying he forgave her and wanted to be her friend again without using words.
Cass got a big poncho with a hood that was rainbow, bright and loud while still capable of hiding her when she felt she couldn’t be seen.
It took a long time for him to make Jason anything after he came back. When he did, him and Tim avoided each other for over a year until Tim overheard Alfred talking to Bruce about how sad it was to not see his two bright boys getting along.
Alfred had been pouring tea with the pot he made a kettle warmer snug with Lilly of the Vally on it when he said it.
So, Tim had searched through his old photos of Jason’s Robin and made himself recall those old ideals and awe. He made himself remember what Jason also had ripped from him and, while it wouldn’t change or excuse how Jason had brutalised him, it made him understand him more.
He decided that instead of joining to Jason and having a heart to heart, that he should do what all bats did and start off without saying a thing.
He makes Jason a blanket that took him over a month of a floral book cover of Jane Ire.
Tim was relived when it was done and simply left it laid out on Jason’s bed in his latest hideout with a note that said,
“I know little about Jane Ire, maybe you could tell me about it sometime?
~ Tim. D.”
Jason had sent him a text a day later to say he could send him a copy with his annotations if he wanted.
It wasn’t long after Tim had read the book, taking twice as long with all the notes Jason had left in it, that he was then left to make something for Damian.
Naturally, he didn’t want to at first.
Also naturally, he got bored and wanted to make another animal after seeing Tifa again. She was cute, but a little munted with age.
He took one look at Titus and promptly made a plan to create him with crochet. He wanted to give it to Bruce after he was done, but he’s only an asshole when he finds it entertaining.
At heart, he’s a kind boy, so he gives it to Damian.
When he gets an actual, verbal thank you from the new Robin, he makes Alfred the Cat and Ace, then finally Bat-cow and Goliath.
The best thing he’s made, according to Duke, is Signals first ever fan made merch that he wears nearly all the time.
Kate says that wrong because the leg warmers he made for winter patrols have apparently saved her life.
Salina would say it’s actually the cat pawed mittens he made her when he was twelve and never told Bruce about.
#batfam#tim drake#bat family#dc comics#batfamily#dc universe#dc#tim drake is red robin#tim drake is a menace#damian wayne#dick grayson#tim drake centric#Jason Todd#Alfred pennyworth#Bruce Wayne#Kate Kane#cassandra cain#stephanie brown#duke thomas#crochet#headcannons
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Tim Drake's singer disguise
I've been thinking about this for a while. Tim has a few undercover personas from what I've read, and I think this would be a fun idea for anyone who wishes to use it.
--
The batfam have to do an undercover mission to target a music-based rogue who was targeting opera singers, so Tim offers to go undercover in order to lure them out.
He gets vocal training lessons thanks to Alfred's knowledge on the matter and recommending a good instructor, and creates a fully legal persona to use for the disguise.
The disguise that Tim goes for is a half mask made of porcelain and a more female look, going by the name 'Florence Hill' and applying to be an opera singer at Gotham's most known theater/opera house.
During the time that Tim is set to perform, the rest of the bats can't be present or the villain will know they are there, so Tim keeps a tracker on him along with a distress beacon.
How this ends up can be anything, I just wanted to write about a Tim who can sing.
#batfam#dc comics#dc characters#tim drake#tim drake centric#ras could catch wind of the mission and use that#or tim could just get kidnapped by the villain they were sesrching for in the first place#its random at this point
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