#well. me obviously but also are there any other people who want it

[a-stitch-in-time-and-space]

"Dad," Jake begins, shuffling a bit from foot to foot.

Uh-no, he thinks. He can pinpoint how worried Jake is by the mixture of movement, tone of his voice, and inability to look him in the eye. Did someone die?!

"Yes Jake," he says, giving him his full attention -- earnest and soft.

"Dad, I... have something to tell you... um... and you can't get mad about it or weird about it. And you can't interrupt until I've finished telling you, okay?"

"Sure."

Another second. Two. "Dad I've been dating-"

"But that's great news Jake," he says, relief no-doubt visible on every inch of his face. "Why would I be anything but happy for you?"

"Dad!" Jake interrupts. "I'm dating Nog. And have been for awhile..."

That makes him pause for a second. Okay, Nog. Makes sense. They've been inseparable since Jake first arrived on the station.

"Why didn't you tell me before? I might have opinions about his uncle on occasion, but that's nothing to do with him. He's a fine Officer, bright, loyal, brave-" as he speaks he warms to the whole thing more and more. A few years ago he might have had his doubts, but... and sure, he'll invite Rom and Leeta around, which means having to invite Quark around, but it's a small price to pay. Overall a good family, good people, and some people who grow on you if you're on a space station with them for years on end.

Jake clears his throat. "I also... am dating... Ziyal."

He stops dead in his tracks.

"Tora Ziyal?"

Jake nods. "Do we know another Ziyal?"

"Dukat's daughter?"

Jake frowns. "Dad, I said you couldn't do anything until I was finished."

Ben's own frown mirrors his son's, but he breaks it to hold up his hands. "Alright, alright. You're dating Nog and Ziyal. I'm sure Commander Kira will be happy about it."

Yeah. Yeah, okay. Dukat's daughter, but hasn't he long abdicated the right to come calling for in-law heart to hearts? Ben certainly won't be busting out the real peppers for him if he ever does mysteriously find out, but Kira has been Ziyal's default parent for awhile now and is naturally always welcome - and Ziyal herself is an up-and-coming artist, lots of groundbreaking work being platformed on Bajoran-Cardassian identity, explains why Jake's been writing so much on the subject for awhile now. Kira has every right to be proud, and even though the Dukat thing niggles in the back of Ben's mind, he's sure he can put it aside for hers and Jake's sake.

Ah, and Elim Garak would have to be invited too, come to think about it... he'll have to think about that one, but at least it'll make for an interesting dinner at this point.

"And Ezri."

"What about Dax?" Ben asks, jolted out of meal-and-seating-planning (well obviously Kira and Quark can't be seated next to each other and he doesn't trust Garak next to Rom, and he thinks Leeta and Ziyal might get on well)--

"I'm also dating Ezri. Well, it's early days, we're still... but I asked if I could tell you and she said yes, but she didn't want to be here when I did. I think Dax- uh, Worm-Dax that is, isn't sure how you'll feel about it, because you've known each other for a long time. But. Ezri's her own woman, you know."

He says the last part very seriously, like he's expecting disapproval, but Ben's not halfway through processing the first part, when the second part belatedly careens into him... "Dax?" he says, a little strangled.

Jake shrugs. "Ezri said if you could keep Jadzia and Curzon out of it, that would be great." A pause. "Especially Curzon. I know there's some memories or... but. I mean, if Dax accepts it then everyone should!"

He bites his lip a little, like he used to when he was much younger and was worried he'd gone too far with something or other.

"Dax..." Ben says faintly. And under his breath: "oh the trill-commission are going to love this..."

"We haven't broken any laws," Jake says, defiantly.

Ben puts a comforting hand on his shoulder. "A four-person interspecies romance? Oh, I'm sure you are."

Then pulls him into a hug, and adds: "the variation on cuisine and custom within a single meal will be an interesting experience for us all though. I think I know how I can make it work..."

Jake laughs, relieved, and hugs him back as he continues to talk.

*

*The big problems don't start until the wedding planning several years later... meal prep really is the least of it.

Jake and Ziyal: softTM, bond over shared sad-mother stories, being young civilians during wartime, art, both of them are connected to Bajor - bonus points that dukat and sisko would be in-laws

Jake and Nog: friends to married, ultimate tol and smol, worried Jake when Nog’s away, long-distant relationship, they already know they can live together - bonus points quark and sisko would be in-laws

Jake and Ezri: their brief interactions were Good Chemistry, he’d help her find her bearings as Ezri, so supportive, they’ve both come off age pretty similarly, soft beans, bonus points sisko and the worm would be confused as heck 

[traegorn]

hi, i'm reeling from everything today. was wondering your opinion on the "blame" for this result. i've seen fellow leftists say it's because harris abandoned her base and catered to right-wing voters. but i've seen exit polls say that they think harris is too extreme, and i don't think the third-party voters can account for the margin between her and trump. i see people saying it's discontent against democrats + biden, while some seem to think it's about harris and her lack of policies specifically - which doesn't make sense to me, since she explicitly outlined a lot of her goals as president.

i also think that her being a black woman *does* have something to do with this, especially amongst the demographics that voted against her more (white men + women).

but yeah. where do you think the democratic party is going to go from here? is it a misinformation, political literacy issue? a specific distrust of harris, or distrust of the left??

and obviously you must be going through it as well, so feel free to reply with "how the fuck should i know" haha. hope you're doing ok :(

The only people to blame in an election are the voters.

The people who voted for Trump, the people who voluntarily didn't vote at all, and the people who voted third party are responsible for Trump's win and in that order.

Trump told everyone who he was loudly and regularly, and we live in a two party system. We knew he had support, and that Harris was the only other option.

Anyone who chose not to vote for Harris was making the conscious decision to allow a second Trump presidency, and I don't care about any excuses. The folks who voted for Trump got what they (at least think they) want, and the folks who didn't vote on purpose or voted third party chose their own selfishness over saving real lives.

But it doesn't matter who's fault it is. We are where we are, and we have to move forward and fight from here.

I'm going to fucking live, and I'm going to try to help save as many people as I can along the way. I hope you're with me.

[rebouks]

Invictus: Author's Note

Now that we've all survived the horrors, I figured I'd do a bit of a commentary on Robin's nightmare below the cut...

I guess the central themes we were going for within Robin's dream were threefold; the fact that he feels lonely/alone with the burden of his gift, that he's worried about Alex, and that his friends (and some other's) are annoying/confusing him, so let's break that down to begin with.

Robin was always destined to be the last one alive, mostly to compound his feelings of desolation, but also because planning/executing various endings would've taken way longer than 2-3 months to plan on my own 😅 He doesn't dare tell anyone about his abilities due to the fear of being judged or ostracised and I don't blame him. Most people wouldn't believe him, and those that might would probably avoid him or at least act differently around him even if they supported him; he's also paranoid that if a medical professional found out, they'd want to study him or god knows what else, hence the scepticism from the group when he told them (in the nightmare) and his twisted view of Doctor Abbott (who's actually a perfectly lovely psychologist in the waking world).

Alex hasn't written for over six months at this point and Robin doesn't know why; it's not as if they've slowly been losing touch over time with less and less communication either, her letters stopped without warning! Half of him expects there to be a reasonable explanation, but he can't help worrying. Clearly his subconscious mind ran away with all that concern...

Robin's classmates personalities were spot on (thanks to Robin's gift) but slightly exaggerated since each one of them is a proverbial thorn in Robin's side at the moment.

Levi: Extra impulsive, standoffish and contradictory within Robin's dream, I think it's fairly obvious Robin's still pissed at his friend. I toyed with the idea of Robin being the only one to make decisions that we could vote on, but thought the loss of control he'd feel from not being able to stop bad outcomes from happening off the back of other people's choices was far more apt. Levi continues to tread a questionable path irl and Robin can't stop him.. if only he'd just apologise!

Penny: Robin strongly dislikes Penny, hence her being super annoying.. not that she's much better in the waking world! If the psychic doesn't rate someone, I'd say it's a pretty safe bet they're not such a great person.. I'm sure he wishes his friend wasn't so into her 💀

Aster: I think the fact that Aster's stood up for Robin twice now had a big impact on how he acted; he tried to keep the peace where he could and was the only one who supported Robin after he'd told the group about his gift. Robin doesn't know him very well outside of his dream though, so some of this could just be a projection based on what little evidence he has 🤷‍♀️

Jacob: Robin's a bit annoyed/put off by Jacob right now.. he barely spends any time with him and Jude anymore and as they've gotten older, their personalities appear to be veering in different directions. He's volatile, haughty and obsessed with girls, hence his distrust toward Robin after the revelation of his gift and his less-than-stellar treatment of Tess.

Tess: Tess goes where Jacob goes, simple! Though Robin feels bad for her because he knows that she's way more into Jacob than he is and he's not faithful; that's why he so obviously dismisses his own girlfriend within the dream. In the waking world he's much more convincing, but Robin knows better.

What the hell was "x" about?

The dolls - they were usually found pointing toward danger and/or bad decisions, but did we listen? NOPE! Instead we chose to vilify them 😩

The Lab - this was actually a warped version of the seed vault/hydroponic garden Robin, Wren & Oscar explored in Granite Falls. That's why the retina detection system recognised him, 'cause he has technically been there before. I'm not a professional, so don't quote me on this, but apparently our minds can't conjure up people/places/things from nothing, so what we usually see in our dreams is stuff we've seen before or an amalgamation of various things mashed together, even if we don't actively remember them.

The Asylum - Sunnyside Asylum is a real place Robin read about on a late night internet delve down a rabbit hole (don't judge him, we've all done it) he just forgot he'd read about it or seen it before 🤷‍♀️

The butterflies - they're Alex's favourite animals (along with the humble moth!) so Robin thought they were leading him to her, but they were not ;-;

"So, I suppose you know-..." - what was Aster going to say!? Aster was about to assume that Robin knows he has a crush on him, and he'd be correct! Robin never really picked up on it before, but after recent events it's pretty obvious.. to Robin at least! Does he like Aster back? Well, maybe he doesn't know yet, or maybe it's a secret, but (spoiler alert) Robin's pansexual, so there's a chance he could.

Doctor Abbott - briefly mentioned before, but let's dig deeper!

Dr. Abbott is the psychologist Oscar/Courtney sent Robin to a while back for his selective mutism after it started hindering him/his schoolwork etc since starting high school. He's terrifying simply because Robin's terrified of him-.. though I suppose not him personally. Robin's torn between a rock and a hard place when it comes to professional help; on the one hand he'd love to offload all his troubles and get some real guidance, but the other side of him worries what that'd mean. He can't tell anyone the full story, so how could anyone truly help him? Is his mutism even connected to his gift, or does he just use it as a convenient excuse? What if they didn't believe him and labelled him insane? What if he IS insane and imagining everyone else's thoughts? What if they do believe him and want to experiment on him?! 😱 If he's gonna tell anyone about his abilities, it sure as shit isn't gonna be some stranger he doesn't trust, even if it appears they mean well! He'd love to know where his gift came from though. Why him? Where'd it come from? Does anyone else have it?? He doubts anyone would be able to answer these questions but it still kinda ties into the whole theme of being experimented on etc. I think at this point he's wondering who he is (as every teen does around his age) or who he'd be without his abilities too, like another part of him is worried he'd be a mere husk of himself if science somehow explained away his world. It's just a part of who he is now and I think he's starting to accept himself as is, so the thought of someone picking it all apart after his acceptance is perhaps more scary than letting anyone in to help make sense of it. Maybe it's just one of those things, or maybe he's bonkers and has no idea? He doesn't know.. he's very confused, hence the complicated feelings around poor, well-meaning Dr. Abbott.

Mr Handy - he gets an honourable mention because it's funny to me.. like he's usually on the players side, right?! Yeah, but Robin isn't fond of technology in general so in dreamland good ol' Mr Handy is a dickhead instead lmao 😂

Some fun what if's & titbits...

I'm not gonna break down all the what if scenarios because there were a LOT but I still wanna take some time to point out some fun stuff n' share a few fun things we missed out on 🤸‍♀️

If Levi tried to scare Robin, it wouldn't have worked in the slightest which I just find amusing 🤭

If Robin n' co. chose to hide instead of run earlier on in the dream, he would've gotten stuck in a closet with Aster eheuheuheu (this is the fun thing I said y'all missed out on!!)

There were numerous ways for Levi to piss Penny off during the duration of the dream (somehow he only managed one so well done ig) that would've potentially changed their demise and one was Tess falling off the ladder and Levi helping her.. look at those mad lil fists on Penny LMAO 😂 You can also see another lovely doll pointing in the direction of the monster that was chasing them but everyone would've been like ewwww! even tho she was just trying to help.. shame on us tbh ;-;

Just Aster being cute tryna keep the peace.. IF HE'D SURVIVED! T-T

Mr Handy being absolutely demented.. love that for him.

Robin being yeeted back to the asylum.. skjsk idk I just like these screenshots lmao

Aster being a menace to both Levi and Penny ehehe

I had such fun creating this little project (I say little but it literally took months fkfjgkj) and October was kinda shitty for me so thank you to everyone for reading along, voting and generally having fun with me, it gave me something to look forward to! 🧡

I love horror and taking a break from a more realistic style of storytelling is always good fun, dreams especially 'cause they can be as wacky as you like!

I suppose my main inspo for the what if's/voting was Until Dawn but I think we can all thank games like Silent Hill, Outlast, Resident Evil, Amnesia etc etc for the general vibes I was going for 🤔

EITHER WAY! Very fun.. 10/10 would recommend trying to stretch yourselves into doing something something similar, I had a blast!

I think I covered a fair amount of questions n' stuff but feel free to ask anything else! ILY 🧡🧡

[descaladumidera]

Okay, so I'm finally putting all the stuff about the other characters on this post as well that @illicien and I came up with. It's not that much, just bits and bobs for different characters. Yeah, I wanted to do this ages ago, but I forgot. Do not judge me or I'll cry.

Let's start with Tony.

He is an engineer for SHIELD, building the Jaegers. He is quite miffed that he is allowed to build but not to pilot. Makes for a grumpy Tony. Alas, when the base gets attacked, he turns the weapons inside out and manages to use them against the attacking Kaiju, saving a lot of people and destroying a big part of the base in the process. Fury is pissed. Tony is proud. Nobody can fire him, 'cause they need him. Fury even allows him to use his bots to clean up the mess, 'cause he needs Tony to keep working on the Jaegers and more defenses.

(He also absolutely is working on a mini-Jaeger called Iron Man. But it's his little hobby side project, because nobody is letting him have any fun. At all. Ever.)

Next is Peter.

He is the kid that's on his own and builds his own Jaeger, after his aunt and uncle got killed in a Kaiju attack. His Jaeger can be controlled by one pilot (yes, this is a Scrapper reference) and is named Spider. He ends up at SHIELD by accident and gets adopted by literally everyone. Even Fury has a soft spot for the kid.

And Stephen.

Stephen was a Jaeger pilot, but he also lost his partner, which scarred him deeply and fucked with his mind so hard he never sets foot in a Jaeger again. It takes a lot of convincing, but thanks to him having deep knowledge about neurology (which was the main reason he was recruited in the first place), he stays at SHIELD, helping Tony refine the sync machines in the Jaegers.

About Thor and Loki.

Obviously they pilot a Jaeger together. They're insufferable. They work well. But, damn, everyone wants to smack them into the next dimension.

The package deal of Steve, Bucky, and Sam.

Steve (who comes from a long, proud line of Jaeger pilots) and Bucky used to pilot a Jaeger together rather early on. But shit went south and Bucky lost his arm and they thought Steve was dead. That led to Fury putting Bucky and Sam together as pilots, because they are compatible. Well. Drift compatible. They're always on each other's throats otherwise.

Through some fucked up kind of luck, though, Steve survived and turns up at SHIELD months later, healed up and ready to get out there again. Only that his old partner has a new partner. That leads to Tony engineering a new Jaeger—one for three pilots. Turns out that Steve is the buffer Bucky and Sam need and they work together like a charm.

Not-really-married Natasha and Clint.

Of course Nat and Clint make a team. They know each other inside and out. So much, in fact, that people think they're actually married and don't dare approach any of them to ask for a date.

Rhodey and Curtis and their white idiots. Also Pepper, Christine, and Karen and their male idiots. And Trish, Claire, and Colleen and their idiots in general. There's overlap.

Just stuffing all these characters into one room, giving them an abundance of alcohol, and letting things play out. There's a lot of complaining. There's bonding. I need a whole series of them just being Done With Shit™. They're so tired.

We did not forget about Bruce.

He is just. Quietly suffering. Bruce is hopping between helping the analysts and helping Tony and nobody gives him the appreciation he deserves. Poor guy. Let me pet him. He is the one listening to people complaining about everyone else.

Another three-person-Jaeger for Jess, Luke, and Danny.

They join SHIELD later on, bringing their people with them. It's clear they also need a three-person-Jaeger, so Tony gets to work. They're good, but really inexperienced, so there's a steep learning curve.

For some reason Zemo gets a part as well. (The reason is my wife, who I love dearly and he is their blorbo, so gotta incorporate him somehow.)

Not too sure about his part, yet, but some kind of intelligence operative, feeding info to Fury about the Kaiju black market and other things normal people wouldn't be able to know. He might have to work together with David at one point, gather as much information that SHIELD can use as possible.

Also. Bucky starts to flirt with him. Steve and Sam are not impressed. Nat is delighted. Clint is actively helping (he is making it worse).

Fuck it, I'm gonna put out my ideas for a Fratt Pacific Rim!AU. Do with this what you want.

Okay, lemme paint the background picture.

SHIELD are the ones behind the Jaeger program, with Nick Fury at the head. Once Curtis lost his leg during That One Mission, Fury seeks him out and recruits him (like Fury does), which leads to Curt dragging in Frank and Billy, because he knows they would be damn good at operating a Jaeger together.

Now on to Frank.

Frank and Billy were marines and friends first, so they have the discipline and they are drift compatible. They go on a lot of missions (don't have a name for their Jaeger yet—maybe The Punisher? *coughs*)—successful missions. They're the heroes of the Jaeger program. Until everything goes to shit. A Kaiju attacks New York and kills Frank's family. Frank and Billy try to stop it, but they fail, their Jaeger breaks, and Billy dies on this mission. Frank is … not in a good place. He wants to find a new partner, wants to take revenge, but Fury and Curt deem him too unstable and pull him out of the program. Frank goes back to New York (meeting the Liebermans during that time).

((Lieberman tie-in.

David do as David does and hacks into databases he shouldn't hack into. So when he finds stuff he shouldn't find, he panics. But he knows that a rather legendary Jaeger pilot (Frank) is back in New York, so he finds him.

"You have the connections! You can tell SHIELD about the illegal Kaiju trade!"

Frank does not want to do this. He does not. He tells David as much, shoves his middle finger into his face, and leaves. But David is a persistent asshole, so he tracks him down. Again. And again. And again. Until Frank groans and comes by to at least look at what David has found. That's when he meets David's family ('cause he has his set-up down in the basement of his house). Of course Leo, Zach, and Sarah make Frank stay for dinner. And then they make him come over again. And again. And again. Until he can't help but feel integrated into their family. Goddamnit.))

And now on to Matt.

Matt has been part of the Jaeger program family since he was a kid. Jack got recruited just after Matt got blinded, desperately needing to provide for his son, and the people at SHIELD were his best bet to give Matt the care he needed. Jack actually was Fury's partner and they operated a Jaeger together (also no name for this one—maybe Daredevil? *coughs*). Of course shit goes south and Jack dies during a mission, Fury taking it upon himself to keep Matt at the base and raise him.

Matt goes on to become one of their analysts, one of the best (at one point Foggy and Karen get recruited, too, and work alongside him). Despite not being able to see any of the Kaiju and the samples that end up at the base, Matt can draw conclusions from the data he has like nobody else. He, Foggy, and Karen find out about the pattern in which Kaiju will appear.

Now onto Frank and Matt meeting.

This discovery prompts Fury to seek out Frank, because, well, they need the best of the best and it has been years by now, so he wants to give Frank another chance. Frank comes back when he hears what's at stake (and brings the Liebermans with him—he doesn't want to lose another family and David can join Matt, Foggy, and Karen). The problem is—nobody is drift compatible with him. They try the best of the best: Steve Rogers, Natasha Romanoff, Bucky Barnes, etc. None of them work.

On one night, Frank thinks it would be best to find out anything he can, so he goes to the lab and asks the analysts himself for all the details. Because he knows Fury and he knows that Fury's secrets have secrets. And that's when he meets Matt, that's when he realizes how goddamn fucking smart he is. And he wants to try to drift with Matt.

Fury is like, hell no, of course. But Frank is nothing if not persistent, and Matt has a secret desire to try this. Because of his dad. Because the Murdock boys have the Devil in them. Because he is just so tired of not doing enough. Fury is still like, hell no. So Matt and Frank just. Do it. Without Fury's permission. 'Cause they're assholes.

Of course Matt, never having drifted before, goes down the rabbit hole. That's when Frank learns that Battlin' Jack Murdock—the man he had looked up to since he was a kid—was Matt's dad.

I have a shitton of other ideas, all expanding the universe and including other characters. But this is the more specific stuff I came up with.

[mellohiizz]

im more complex about the episode then everyone else seems to be apparently. imo they all sucked this episode.

for one, i am actually a dean sympathizer. lets be real parrot and wifies both treated him badly. i wouldnt have told parrot either when he was there constantly repeating the exact same things ash said to blackmail dean; and wifies isnt much better for affirming the shit ash told dean either, infact i would argue wifies was even worse then about it. if i was there hearing "ash was right. youre a burden, but thats ok." and "ash was right. your a burden, we should be leaving you for dead." i wouldnt want to risk jeopardizing my one source of safety either.

before the reveal that dean was actually involved in the leaking of their location wifies just came of as a semi-controlling dick. there were a million better ways all of them could have done things this episode. i dont really like the wifies glazing as if he was perfect this episode and didnt treat a fellow victim who lodgically didnt have a choice like shit. wifies is smart enough to figure out dean didnt want to sell them out. imo he had no actual reason to reason to treat dean with as little empathy as he did, especially when wifies knows exactly what its like to have his existance used to get to parrot in the exact chain of events parrot referenced after the compass was burnt.

both sides of odessy were being hypocritical and hurtful as hell and thats been a theme of uu the whole time. theyre all flawed, they are make mistakes and are selfish and hurt others doing what they think is righteous or best or safest. uu is the dichotomy of perspective, about how everyone does what they think is best and how more often then not that best hurts atleast someone. and guess what? thats life. thats actually pretty normal, especially if youve been through your own shit or are traumatized like the characters of uu are.

they all suck and hurt people, thats the moral of the story. the moral that feels very lost on most of the fandom...

-🔍🏰(f:▶️🥊)

honestly, good take. kind of made me rethink some things that happened in the episode as well.

to be fair, yes, obviously dean was treated badly the whole episode. even i noted that wifies was a bit too harsh with how he approached things the whole video. he knew that dean was leaking information, didn't tell parrot, and still tried to put basically the whole blame of it on dean. "you could argue i hid it from you" yes, wifies, you did keep it from parrot, knowing that parrot would've tried to look for a different solution.

parrot was obviously not any better. he brushed off wifies despite the other very clearly showing signs of concern and he did also openly called dean a burden. which is, yes, he was slowing them down, but i feel like there was a nicer was to go about it.

and yes, i do sympathize with dean, but he did hide a piece of pretty crucial information from them, keeping a leverage in the compass, and then ran away after being confronted. it's fair, i'm not saying he was entirely wrong for that too, but i feel like it wouldn't be fair to say anyone was fully in right/wrong.

and yeah, you're are right, the morality of characters is a pretty obvious focus on the whole uu, and obviously all of them are very flawed. taking wifies's words, we just need to try and look at things from all of their perspectives. they're all understandable, and in some ways even reasonable, but there were much better ways to go about the whole situation, but the problem was exactly that. perspective. they were all focused on their individual goals and didn't try to see everything from the perspective of others. and that's what separated all of them.

[emphasis-on-the-oopsie]

alright besties who wants a logicality week this year

[al-luviec]

juvie buddies

[josefavomjaaga]

No one is saying he shouldn't be held responsible for his actions, but at the same time it's not fair to turn him into a target of harsh judgment based on misinformation, biased assumptions and personal antipathy.

I guess arguing further will do nothing to align our points of view. But what you wrote above really hit me because spreading misinformation surely was not my intention. I will try to explain and give the information but please bear with me, this will get very long.

I will try to answer this point first and then adress the rest:

My whole point was that it's unfair to make Junot looking so much worse compared to his colleagues, when they were all military men who committed various degree of violence either directly or indirectly.

If Junot looks so much worse than his colleagues then that’s because apparently, in this aspect, he indeed was. Unless of course you can provide evidence that Murat, Soult, Duroc, Eugène, Bessières, Davout etc. also stabbed their wives with scissors? (Or any other woman for that matter. Or any similar acts of physical abuse.) If you can, by all means please do! I would love to change my mind on this.

I know of several incidents when husbands had every reason to suspect their wives of infidelity, Napoleon, Murat, Marmont, Louis Bonaparte, possibly Ney. I am unaware that any of them acted the way Junot did. Did general Foy, whose wife became Junot’s mistress, beat her in retaliation, for example? Heck, as far as I have read not even Hortense, who really describes Louis as the husband from hell in her memoirs, ever mentions any physical abuse.

Treating a woman like this was not normal. If it had been, Junot’s behaviour would not have caused such a scandal all throughout Paris.

I can totally understand hating a historical figure: I loathe some, but they don't deserve slander and constant bashing in serious discourse (and sometimes even some memes are in bad taste).

I really seem to be unable to make myself understood. I do not hate Junot. I do not find him very likeable in many aspects, that much is true, and if he was alive today I’d damn well try to avoid having to deal with him. What I do hate, and what has me truly worried, is how some people seem to normalise his behaviour or now seem to simply project it onto other historical figures (see your own quote above: when they were all military men who committed various degree of violence), in order to make Junot look better. That’s not fair to these other men.

Again, if you have evidence to the contrary, please provide it.

You accused him of murder, an act which has a specific definition you most likely ignored on purpose

I must admit that I did not use the term murder in its legal sense. Guilty as charged. And I’m not a lawperson but if we really want to come down to the question if what Junot did was attempted murder or only attempted manslaughter … well, let’s see if we can find arguments that would support an indictment for murder, shall we?

-> Trigger warning for domestic violence, obviously.

Previously you used the expression "attempted to murder"; now according to the definition, a murder is the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

Thanks for the definition. So, let’s see in how far Junot’s actions may have indeed been premeditated. The first question would be: when did he first learn about Laure’s affair with Metternich. For this, we have Laure’s testimony (translated from Turquan, La Générale Junot) about her first encounter with her husband after the latter returned to France in October 1808, after the evacuation of Portugal and the Convention of Cintra:

I arrived in La Rochelle. I met Alexandre again, but I found him changed in a thousand ways. He was moody and embarrassed with me. I saw that he was aware of my relationship with M. de Metternich [...].- ’ Would it be true,’ he said, ’that M. de Metternich is your lover? If I only had a notion based on some plausibility...’ And his voice trembled, his eyes wandered: he made me shudder. I hurried over to him: - ’My friend,’ I said to him, ’we are playing strange roles here: you act jealous when it is my turn to get angry [...].’

So, by October 1808, over a year before his attack on Laure, Junot is already more or less informed of what’s going on between Laure and Metternich. The couple merely avoids talking about it, which is all the easier for Laure as Junot is in a bad position to argue about her unfaithfulness, having just been mocked by British newspapers about the size of his serail that the Royal Navy had to transport to France and that was even larger than the one they had transported home from Egypt in 1801. The topic is not adressed further.

By the way, at this point Laure already merely endures marital sex with Junot. (As his spouse, she is in no position to refuse it, just to explain what she will write later.)

It was a fury of love that repelled me instead of attracting me. Often I would pull away from his arms, feeling a sharp pain produced by a bite or too much pressure: the senses were everything, the soul nothing.

Junot then returns to the Iberian peninsula and the siege of Saragossa with his ladyfriends, and Laure returns to Paris and her sweetheart Clemens.

The spouses will only meet again a year later, after the Fifth Coalition War. By that time, Metternich has long left France and has been made Austrian Minister of Foreign Affairs, he and Laure can only exchange letters at the time (that her chambermaid hides for her). The Junot marriage, however, is in full crisis, even if Laure desperately tries to cover it up:

Junot arrived from Zaragoza shortly after me. His mood was gloomy and harsh. He would hurl sarcasm at me in hushed tones; he would say words of love interspersed with insults. It was painful for me, but I submitted to it in atonement for my fault […] [...] However, I could not help noticing how gloomy and morose the Duke was. Sometimes he would look at me for half an hour and I would hear him muttering curses, then he would go out and bang the door violently.

So Junot is already treating Laure badly – while not abusing her physically yet – from October 1809 on, two full months before the Mareschalchi ball on 13 January 1810, and all throughout the winter months. At the bal masqué, hosted by Italian ambassador Mareschalchi, Laure dances in a much admired quadrille and thus has to leave her house early. Before doing so, she presents herself to her husband and asks for his opinion on her outfit.

He looked at me without answering. - 'Do I look bad then?’ I asked him, surprised by his silence. - ‘Bad? No, you look only too fine.' He came over to me and squeezed my hand hard. - 'I sometimes feel like giving you a scar that would disfigure you: you wouldn't look good any more.' This sentence, which would have made me laugh at any other time, made me shiver.

This is a clear threat, several hours before the actual attack.

Laure dances her part in the quadrille and after having changed her costume, she has a walk with Monsieur de la Vaugyuon before returning to the ball room.

We entered the room, which was so full of people that you could hardly move around. I was laughing in response to a remark by Monsieur de la Vauguyon, when I felt my arm being squeezed so violently that I cried out in pain. I turned around and saw a tall figure dressed in a black domino: a black mask covered his face and the mask's beard was agitated by rapid breathing. Monsieur de la Vauguyon's first reaction was to call this mask to account for the insult he was inflicting on a woman to whom he was giving his arm. But I had recognised Alexander and, freeing my arm from his, I took my husband's and, after giving him a sad smile, I was immediately dragged away rapidly by the Duke, who knocked over everything in his path and almost carried me through the streams of masks and joyful groups that filled the halls. When we arrived in the vestibule, he called in a thunderous voice for his people. They hadn't arrived, but mine were there, so we got into my carriage. There, tearing off his mask and beating his chest and face, I heard him utter the most dreadful expletives against M. de Metternich.

At this point, Joseph Turquan decided that "reproducing the scene that took place between the spouses" would be "pointless". So from now on I will translate from Nicole Toussaint du Wast, "Laure Junot, duchesse d’Abrantès", Paris 1985, a book that provides some more citations from Laure's so-called "Journal Intime". We continue from where we left off:

[…] the most dreadful expletives against M. de Metternich. - ’Recommend your soul to God,’ he said, ’you're going to die!’

So, let’s summarise: Junot, after already having threatened her, follows Laure to the ball. He does wear a costume so as to not look out of place. He gets called out on his misbehaviour yet ignores it. He then drags Laure out from the ball and brings her to a place where she is alone with him and entirely in his power, and he does so with the intention of killing her.

As I said, I’m not a lawperson. But I’m pretty sure that a prosecutor might be able to interpret this as a certain level of premeditation. Especially as Junot has suspected the affair between Laure and Metternich for over a year, his bad mood towards her has built up for at least over two months, and the shock of seeing his conspicions confirmed cannot have been that overwhelming but only seems to have given him the final incentive for punishing her.

Continuing from above:

And he shouted, smashing the windows of the carriage. That's how we arrived at the hotel. I couldn't walk. He seized me with the same violence and fury as a tiger taking its prey into its lair, and ran through the rooms, throwing me into an armchair when we reached the bedroom. He had to close the door and, crossing his arms, came and stood in front of me: - 'You have deceived me, betrayed me, dishonoured me,’ he shouted. I know everything.' […]

He then forces Laure through threats to bring him the box containing the letters she had received from Metternich. When she tries to convince him to not open and read them, he in turn tries to force himself on her:

I was crying and couldn't answer. He lifted my head and, wiping my eyes, kissed them, kissed my cheeks, his mouth came close to mine, his lips trembled as they approached my lips: as soon as they touched them, they clung to them with inconceivable strength. He sucked in my breath as if he wanted to draw my soul to himself. My tears redoubled, they probably ecitated him because he wanted to obtain the last favours with an ardour that I could not conceive. There was something ferocious about his caresses that made me shiver. I struggled on, and a sharp bite on my lip gave me new courage […]

And enough strength to free herself. And yes, this is the closest thing to a woman of the early 19th century describing an attempted sexual assault – the word rape she could not even use because at the time there was no such thing as rape in a marriage. To the contrary, in her thinking she had to explain how she dared to refuse her husband.

However, what I think becomes very clear in her description: She was crying – his kisses made her cry even harder which, instead of stopping him, only turned him on further, he was indeed trying to get to "the last favours", and she barely managed to struggle free.

So much about the attempted rape. Let’s get back to the question of attempted murder versus attempted manslaughter:

Furious, Junot then retires and takes the box of letters with him. Laure remains in her bedroom for the whole night. At dawn – this must be several hours after Junot has dragged her from the ball, enough time for even the most agigated mind to calm down somewhat, Junot goes to see the emperor. He returns at 9 am, enters her bedroom, locks the door twice (which I assume could again be understood as evidence of premeditation) and stares at Laure trembling in her bed. He tears a ring off her finger "avec violence", a ring she has received as a souvenir from Metternich, and lets her read a letter he plans on sending to Metternich, challenging him to a duel in Mayence. Laure jumps out of her bed and throws the letter into the fire. At which point…

- ’ You're trembling for him,’ he shouted, ’you wretch, because you still love him, don't you? Oh, tell me! So that I don't feel any remorse when I kill you!’ I was almost lifeless at his feet. - ’Speak a curse on him,’ he cried, ’tell me that you curse him, tell me that you hate him!’

At this point, the author Toussaint du Wast merely summarizes that Junot grabbed a pair of scissors, stabbing Laure in the throat and the chest. The book then continues with Laure’s own words:

He rushed at me and, knocking me over onto the ottoman, put both his hands on my throat, probably to strangle me. Just as I thought I was going to die, I felt his hand slip away and he cried out: - ‘I could never do it’. I opened my eyes and saw his face and hand covered in blood.

Again, summarizing: We are now several hours and one discussion with Napoleon away from the ball at Mareschalchi’s and whatever caused Junot’s original explosion. Junot has had ample time to calm down. Yet it seems that he is instead looking for a reason to go through with the killing that he has planned at least since they went home in the carriage, it seems that he wants Laure to offend him enough to push him over the edge: "Oh, tell me! So that I don't feel any remorse when I kill you!" - Premeditation?

This was not the end of the madness (in fact, Laure actually writes that she thinks this was the first instance of Junot showing his dementia) but the next step then rather involves Eleonore Metternich being dragged into this shitshow, so we can cut off here. It’s gotten long enough, and this is a good point to end because I do want to give credit to Junot for in the end not having the heart to go through with an act he seems to have tried to incite himself to commit.

--- End of ugly domestic violence story ---

Finally, just to adress some of your minor points:

you belittled his military feats as skirmishes

I was referring to the combat of Nazareth (not even Gros’ painting calls it a "bataille"), which seems to be seen as his greatest military feat, took place in the context of a much larger battle (Mount Tabor) and in which Junot commanded 400 cavalry.

How would you feel if someone kept posting about how Eugene Beauharnais was a mediocre lapdog, good only to lick Napoléon's ass?

That’s pretty much how many historians do refer to Eugène most of the time, though they tend to word it differently. So – already there? They do have a point in many cases, too.

Do you know how hard is to discipline oneself, especially if the person in question suffers from addictions - as Junot seemed to - and serious injuries that compromised their brain forever? Again, I'm not saying that mental illness is a justifications for one's acts, but if we really want to judge someone - like you are doing pretty often with Junot - , a little sympathy would be expected.

I’m sorry, but in a situation with a clear victim and a clear perpetrator, like in the case of the attack on Laure, my sympathy immediately seems to go to the victim first and foremost.

you accused him of beating and raping women as something customary to him, without providing evidence.

No, I did not. What I wrote was, in reference to the previous tags:

"Well, admittedly not all evil imperialists who were bad at military tried to rape and murder women..."

Plural "women" because the subject of the sentence "evil imperialists" is also plural. The evil imperialists would not all try to murder "a woman" (i.e. one and the same woman), would they?

And while I cannot provide evidence for Junot habitually mistreating specifically women, I have come across examples of Junot mistreating people who could not defend themselves or of him resorting to violence whenever something displeased him in daily life. But you probably know those better than I do.

[idkwhatimdoingbutslay]

ADAPTATIONS DO NOT HAVE TO BE BAD ADAPTATIONS DO NOT HAVE TO BE BAD ADAPTATIONS DO NOT HAVE TO BE BAD ADAPTATIONS DO NOT HAVE TO BE BAD ADAPTATIONS DO NOT HAVE TO BE-

ADAPTATIONS ARE NOT INHERENTLY BAD ADAPTATIONS ARE NOT INHERENTLY BAD ADAPTATIONS ARE NOT INHERENTLY BAD ADAPTATIONS ARE NOT INHERENTLY BAD ADAPTATIONS ARE NOT INHERENTLY BAD ADAPTATIONS ARE NOT INHERENTLY-

[dayurno]

No but for real do you think Jean blamed Kevin for leaving him at the Nest?

(being held at gunpoint) ok ok ok ok ill answer officer please

i dont think jean necessarily blames kevin for anything thats happened in the nest, but he's still just a person after all. in such a harsh environment and suddenly alone after hanging so much of his sanity on kevin and their friendship, of course jean resents him for leaving; he doesn't have the time nor the space to process the feeling of loss in any other meaningful way.

but! i think after he is no longer in such peril and can think clearly, jean learns to be angry at the world again. the realization that the anger towards the nest riko beat out of him was actually Rightful and Just like the sword of an angel will also bring the logical explanation that kevin was in no more control than he himself was, and that ultimately it was not his fault. i believe the pain of abandonment for jean comes from a much deeper place though, and that will be something that creates a rift between them even if jean doesn't blame kevin anymore; kevin, because he is too afraid of jean hating him to actually allow them to interact again, and jean, because kevin's avoidance of him makes him angry when he was prepared to absolve kevin of guilt in the first place

[hershelwidget]

I don’t know anymore have a Caleb prepared to Fight for his bestie

“she asked for no pickles” lookin scene

[britneyshakespeare]

i have been working with kids for four years and i had to write my first ever note just now about a seventh grade boy being inappropriate towards me. i don't know what the hell this could possibly lead to or what. he was trying to feel my legs repeatedly to the point where i had to stop sitting next to him (and i was subbing for his one-to-one para!!!). he's got high support needs. in that kind of job, you're supposed to sit next to them all day and look over their work.

the teacher whose classroom this was happening in could also tell something was wrong. the whole class was acting kinda crazy because it was the day before school vacation week and there was another class coming in to share projects. so like, he was swamped with keeping order already. but we were sitting two feet away from his podium at the front of the room. the kid was giving him and me a hard time when he wouldn't take out his chromebook as he was instructed. and then when he did take out his chromebook, he immediately, for some reason, places it on my lap. he had been ogling my legs the whole time. he puts his computer ON MY LAP. and i'm just like, stunned, because what the hell? can you not keep it on your own lap, for some reason? i don't even know what to say, i just hold it a little above my lap while i'm thinking why on earth would this be happening? he would NOT do this to his regular para if she were here, would he? this can't be normal.

and the teacher sees this and within a minute places a stool in front of the kid for him to put his laptop on. and i'm like. oh ok. yeah. he notices exactly what's happening and that that's not appropriate. and then when the other class comes in to share projects he tells me "miss b——, you don't actually have to sit next to c—— this whole period if you don't want to." and he grabs me a chair for me to go sit with the other paras in the back opposite corner of the room. like he KNEW. and thank you mr. d—— for recognizing that because i was just kind of shocked and didn't know if i was overreacting in my head to all of this.

when there's a point in the class where the kids are discussing stuff, i privately mention what's happened to the para who's sitting closest to me. and she says that the thing about him calling me pretty is something he's been known to do, but the fact that he kept trying to touch my legs is new behavior. and that's a completely different class of behavior. i was telling him NO, don't do that, and he kept doing it. and the fact that he was calling me pretty repeatedly, even when i was giving him instructions that he wasn't taking. and this is the second to last class before the end of the day, so she says she'll take a walk with him before learning center and talk to him about it, and i'm grateful for that. she does. the kid apologizes to me as soon as i come into learning center. but like. WHAT the hell.

i'm STILL like what the hell. this is unfathomable to me. the other adults who i told about this or who witnessed it were supportive of me. but. what to do??? i wrote a long note to his regular para about this, because i knew she was going to hear about it at least from the first para i told. the second para i told about it after school had a kind of... i'm not gonna say enabling reaction, but i suppose since it had already been "taken care of" (or at least, he had been spoken to and apologized) she didn't really have much to add in the way of discipline. i told her what happened after school and she was just like... a little bit, laughing? like oh, yup, that dog. she at the very least confirmed he KNEW what he was doing, that that was not an accident. she said to me "i had a feeling he was going to develop a crush on you" (me and these other paras were together for most of the beginning of the day too). but it's like. it's not about that.

i have worked with children for FOUR years. children have had crushes on me before; i'm quite unfazed by it. boys from the ages of 5-to-15 have told me i'm so pretty before and asked me to marry them. i've never had them feeling up my legs before. i've never had them making me physically uncomfortable. it's NOT about this seventh grader having a crush on the pretty substitute. he is NOT unusual for that, at all. but i've never had a boy of any age or education level repeatedly touching my knees and thighs. THAT is problem behavior!!!

because what if i wasn't assertive enough with him to tell him to stop? what if i was a girl his age? worse, what if i was an adult who encouraged this behavior? i don't come to the middle school to be a seductress. i had no intention in putting on a pair of tights and a skirt this morning of being viewed as an attractive object, especially not by a pubescent boy. what if i did though? what if his interpretation of me wasn't so incorrect and offensive? what if i let him keep touching me inappropriately and saying flirtatious things to me? me, an adult in my mid-twenties, towards a middle school boy?

in no world would that be ok. if i had been feeling up and overly-complimenting a CHILD at my place of work, holy shit would there be reports about me. so a child acting that way could never be ok either. if it'd be firable for me to be reciprocating that action, then that action should not be happening to me. ever. and that child should never repeat that action again to any other adult again.

like i am simply not there to be treated as an attractive young woman. i put on a skirt that shows too much knee and get paired with a boy, though, and that's apparently just a natural consequence. hooo-ly shit. like i don't know what to do. first of all, the more time passes since this has happened, the more i am just unable to stop thinking about it. i wasn't "hurt" or too emotional in the moment but i'm just still processing it and it gets worse. i'm just more and more disgusted.

i don't know what i expect to come out of this, or the email i sent to his regular para. like, am i gonna have to attend a fucking meeting? what is the precedent that this sets for him? WHY do i feel BAD for him about this? well, because he's a child, of course. a child who has done wrong he may not be able to understand. but he knows WHAT he did. he just doesn't know WHY it was wrong.

and i couldn't even say something to him that was like, "well, how would you like it if i was touching you like this?" because young boys do not understand how inappropriate it'd be. i'm sure this kid thought he was gonna get away with what he was doing at the very least. but probably not unlikely he (being a child with no concept of how wrong it'd be) thought he could get some sort of "positive" attention for treating me like this. either way he was simply doing what he wanted to do, with no perspective of how it would make me feel or that it could be classified as harassment. teenage boys think it'd be awesome if the older attractive woman would reciprocate their affections. they're wrong. i, as the older attractive woman of his affection, cannot be the one to convince him of that, though.

i don't know. i don't know. like it's just so not ok. but if i didn't tell another adult about this, he would've gotten away with it. he would probably do it again. and him being in trouble for it is not the same as him understanding that it was wrong. unless someone has a REAL talk with him about inappropriate attention and consent, it's not unlikely that he'll just repeat the behavior in a setting where he thinks he won't be caught or told on. THAT'S the problem. me, i could just never have to be this boy's para again. in my email, i didn't say that i would never be ok working with or around him ever again. he already knows i didn't like it and i'm not afraid to tell on him; as far as that lesson applies to me, individually, i think he's become too ashamed to repeat that.

i don't know. i don't know. i very much expressed that i, i guess, "forgave" him in the email that i wrote. i clarified that i was writing it for the sake of having it on the record. i think that could potentially be very important for the purposes of preventing further similar or escalating behavior from him in the future. i don't want him to be in trouble. i don't think i will be blamed for this, especially not with how promptly i acted, although i don't know to what extent this will be framed as me thinking i'm a "victim." i'm not... i don't feel victimized. i feel disgusted. i feel afraid for the sake of what could happen to or with him in the future, if he thinks behavior like his towards me today is ok.

i feel like if i end up having to further respond to this, this will be made about me. in a way it kind of was. is? in the moment it was happening, it was certainly about me. because i was the one this boy was giving all this unwanted attention to. but to make the consequences of this about me and to involve me any further, i also don't want. because i said what i said already, i don't care if a student has a crush on me. this isn't about me being the pretty substitute. i'm the pretty substitute all the time, to tons of people. that's not really something i've been concerned about up until now.

but do i have to reexplain my personal embarrassment? that i was wearing a skirt? that he was ogling my legs? really? what more do i have to gain from sharing that, other than having the adults at my place of work confirm or deny me in their heads as the pretty substitute? i don't know. perhaps that's REALLY overthinking it. but i don't want to be the substitute that caused a problem for this special ed kid. i don't wanna be the reason that he can't be around me anymore, the person people think of when they're monitoring how he's acting around girls and young women. i DON'T want to be the one people think of when they think of his past misbehavior. i'm NOT here for that.

that's just fucking humiliating. and in this being a thing that could follow him, i have to be ogled and touched over and over again in people's minds for this to be taken seriously. but for this to be swept under the rug would be even worse, no? i don't know. i hate this. the principal is a nice guy; i wouldn't be surprised if he and/or people from the special ed department reached out to me sympathetically about this. but i don't wanna be reached out to. i don't wanna have ppl i work with tell me "sorry that kid was just so attracted to you he couldn't help himself" like come on. if the kid himself doesn't change then i don't really care to remember this incident. and no one reaching out to me and saying they've talked to this kid will actually prove to me he understands. this is the kind of inappropriate behavior it takes years for people to understand why it was wrong, especially a child who has no idea. i mean come on.

[pepprs]

i wish i’d kept pushing the point (<- vagueposting). im so tired i’m hitting a wall. but why is the answer to feeling bottomlessly lonely just to love myself and be loved by myself? isn’t that only more loneliness?

[hobisexually]

x

[sailorsleepymoon]

Latest news in being a person with anxiety is wanting the same thing as someone else but being anxious about why they want it

[cinematicbookworm]

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