#but Charlie I see when people compare the ships

[aro-tarot]

Oh, it was funny last night.

So, my nana was watching the new season of Heartstopper. I watched it the day it came out, but she always waits until I’m visiting her to watch shows we both like.

Anyway, we were maybe 2/3 into the new season when Nana said, “You know who Charlie reminds me of? Merlin.”

Nana is thinking like someone in fandom circles without ever being in the fandom circles.

[almacambiondaughterofsaleos]

I Keep Thinking Back To This

Instead of immediately going to make Vaggie Charlie's girlfriend she stayed a friend and she ended up getting with Emily. Seriously, at this point Charlie has more chemistry with other characters than her goddamn love interest. You know it's funny the fact that people have issues when it's a male x female canon relationship that has no chemistry they call it a result forced so-called heterosexism but ignore it when it comes to canon LGBT couples. The problem isn't hetereosexuality, but the fact people forget to put chemistry in a relationship and assume it will wow an audience.

Seriously, people were saying that it was heteronormality the reason why people shipped Charlastor over Chaggie, but then Emily happened and it showed no it ain't being homophobic but the fact that the canon relationship has no chemistry written. You don't feel like their relationship is alive compared to how she interacts with Alastor and Emily. And I don't care how much the narrative tries to push the Alastor tries to be her daddy, because that just makes even more shippers.

I kind of now wish that kept Vaggie and Charlie as friends then introduce Emily in the first episodes as an ambassador from heaven who is at first infatuated with Charlie and wants to see her mission succeed. Like again she learns more about what is going on in hell and believes in Charlie's mission to make it better. Seriously, I don't know when Emily was created but this was a missed opportunity.

[barblaz-arts]

I know you've been making a lot of art of it lately, but out of curiosity, what's your opinion on Hazbin Hotel in general? I'm referring to both the show and the fandom here. Just curious.

God. What a loaded question. Are you ready? Bcuz I'm fresh from Vaggie discourse on twitter and I have a lot to say.

I think that Hazbin Hotel seems worse than it is for people who know the fandom but haven't actually watched the show. Honestly, I think it's a fine show. It isnt super incredible and I'm not gonna sing praises about how deep and thought provoking it is or whether it's an artistic masterpiece. It never tried to be that and was never advertised as such(to my knowledge) anyway. I just had a lot of fun. Like, yeh sure the cussing in the dialogue can be a bit much, especially in ep 1, but there are different writers in other episodes, so it gets better. It can be super crude yeh, but I grew up watching things like the Scary Movie franchise and other dumb american movies (yes, i was too young for them. yes, i still watched them), so it's pretty tolerable for me. It also helps that Charlie is the main character. That's one of the main reasons why I watch HH but dont watch HB. It's probably a fun show, but without a sweetheart like Charlie to balance things out, I'd just get tired of the sex jokes and mean jokes.

Compared to my last hyperfixation, I think I have more things to love about Hazbin Hotel, believe it or not. With Netflix's Wednesday, I had already been an Addams Family fan for a while and hung on because I loved the family and eventually Enid and wenclair. The show itself was honestly meh... so far! I'll give season 2 another shot.

But with Hazbin Hotel, it catered to a lot of things I've always loved. Found family with a bunch of misfits? We didnt get to see it much bcuz of the fuckass 8-ep per season format we have nowadays, but its fine its there! The juxtaposition of a kind hearted woman in a harsh world? Love love Charlie for that, I watched the show in the first place because of her. A canon lesbian lover with a "fuck the world cuz my world is you" type of love for the protag? Fuck yes. How very Pearl-from-Steven-Universe of Vaggie. And the music? The music is soooo good. I didn't know the songwriter prior to watching, so I was nervous about the songs, but I knew most of the theater actors they cast(still cant believe Jeremy fucking Jordan is Lucifer) so I figured even if the songs are mid, at least the performances would be topnotch. And they were! But the songs were a pleasant surprise. Sam Haft did real damn well. I still listen to the soundtrack to this day.

The fandom, however, is probably the worst one I've been in. And I've been in a lot in my big age... Just... lacking media literacy, and based on the replies I get when I say something on twitter, it seems a lot of them lack reading comprehension and just plain emotional intelligence too.

There's a lot of criticisms about this show that I honestly think is fair. Pacing, character design, overuse of the F word, whatever. But in my opinion, claiming that Hazbin is a male-centered show is an unfair misconception that is mostly the fault of the fandom.

Bcuz, sure, the male characters are uber popular. Alastor, Vox, Lucifer, Angel Dust and the many web of ships they're involved in went trending every few business days. But come on now. How often does a fandom even have their main protag as the most talked about character? This has been going on for ages. Just because the boys have the most merch and fics and fanarts and thirsty fans doesn't mean that they had the spotlight for most of the show itself. It only meant that they were the ones the viewers paid attention to, in a fandom filled with people drooling over the next tumblr sexyman and toxic yaoi ship of the month.

But if you actually look back at what the show gave us so far, the boys didnt outshine the women. I actually think the women got to do more and be more as characters than the men did. Let's take a look at the male characters.

Alastor was not in all the episodes. In fact, he was MIA in two out of the eight episodes. In all the episodes he was in, he was a mere side character. His purpose in season one was to stir the pot and be the intriguing mystery that occasionally quips. But he was not the one whose deeper thoughts were explored and whose character and goals was challenged THROUGHOUT the show, merely alluded to at the VERY END of the season, which is hardly him taking the spotlight away from Charlie. If you merely looked at the fan content of him, you'd think he were a father figure to Charlie(or a love interest. whatever) and that he has developed a soft spot for the Hazbins deep down in that cannibal heart of his. But if you pay attention to the show, he never had even a meaningful one on one conversation with the Hazbins. The only time that happened is when (a)he threatened Husk's life (b)when he constantly mocked Charlie while she was down in the dumps and used this as an opportunity to manipulate her and (b)when he told Niffty watching the crew sure can "make one sentimental", even tho he had taken no prior opportunity to bond with them! There's no foundation for all the fandom's claims that he could be redeemed bcuz of a budding fondness for the group, but that's all you see of his fan content(aside from the horniness). I dont have any problem with his lack of an actual relationship with the Hazbins bcuz I believe redemption for him is not what the show is going for, but it's frustrating to see people interpreting it that way BUT not seeing how horridly developed it would be if that is the case, meanwhile they turn around and say that Vaggie and Chaggie as a ship "had terrible development".

Then we have the male Vees. Vox was only ever in episode two, and was essentially a youtube reactor in episode 8. He was in ep 4 but had no speaking lines. We only know of his obsession with Alastor and the toxic relationship he has with Val. Val, meanwhile, is merely shown as the sex obsessed fiend behind Hell's sex industry and Angel's abuse. They did what they needed to do with minimal screentime. It was fine, but that's IT. Despite what little CANON gave so far, you have hundreds of people writing essays and fics and fanarts about them being complicated characters. But to reiterate, this does not mean that they are bad characters or that they don't deserve the fame. But to say that these men are better written within canon than the women is such a bold statement when most of the depth they knew of these characters were lore drops given before the show and their own speculations as they dug into the shallow soil of what the show has so far.

I'm not gonna speak about Angel and Lucifer. Because I think they were characters who were legitimately well-explored so far.

Now onto the women. So many of them were given the opportunity to have their characters challenged or given the agency to push characters and the plot forward or give you intrigue about implications of what's to come for the characters and the plot. I've talked a lot about Charlie and Vaggie. So let me talk about the other, terribly underrated women of Hazbin.

Velvette and Carmilla were the ones who advanced the subplot in the war against Heaven. Because of Carmilla's love for her family despite being a demon, an angel was killed. It gave Heaven the excuse to escalate things, but it also gave Charlie hope later on in the season that they're not powerless. Carmilla was also the first demon shown to make selfless actions that is contrary to what is expected of demons, making it proof that Charlie's belief that demons deserve a second chance isn't unwarranted. She's an interesting character, as an overlord who hangs on to power but clearly has morals. But how often do you see people writing essays about her? Eating up the fact that she's a powerful overlord but would sacrifice anything for her daughters? If Carmilla were a man, hundreds of girlies would be drooling over the crime boss who has a soft spot for his daughters.

Meanwhile, Velvette got to demonstrate why exactly she's an Overlord despite being the youngest demon in there. She's calculating and observant. She gives off a haughty vibe and constantly boasts about how she's young and fresh, but she isn't naive. During that meeting, she paid attention to Carmilla and Zestial's relationship. In order to find out who killed the angel, she riled everyone up, and when she got the feeling it was Carmilla, she mocked Zestial so that Carmilla could slip up. By playing these Overlords who are older and more experienced than her, Velvette showed what exactly her asset was to the Vees and why she's a threat, something that Vox and Val have yet to be given the opportunity to do when they were busy eye-fucking Alastor and literally fucking Angel. But in fan content about the Vees, Velvette is almost treated as an after thought to the boys...

Then we have the Seraphs. Not only were their designs gorgeous, their dynamic and presence as characters had impact to the plot and main characters.

Emily is a much needed character to show that this story isn't meant to tell you that Heaven = bad; Hell = good. There is good and bad in both, and it is so important for the protags to know that they have an ally in Emily who represents the true virtues that heaven is supposed to uphold. And I love the confrontation she had with Sera when her own view of what's right and good was challenged. We got to see the strength of her character and started the seeds of what could be heaven's acceptance of Charlie's goals.

Sera is such an interesting character to me. She was also important to show that not all angels were sadistic like Adam and Lute, but not in the same way Emily was. I have no idea so far which direction this show would go with her. But I'm intrigued by the fact that she seems to be driven by fear, unlike Adam and Lute's cruelty. She knew Lucifer and was there when he was cast out for his disobedience. Whether everything she's doing is to prevent that from happening again remains to be seen, and I'm looking forward to this kind of subplot for her.

And then Rosie! I really really look forward to seeing more from her. Spoilers aside, something I barely see people talk about is how interesting it is that Rosie is every bit the leader that Charlie hopes to be. Rosie is able to be a respected overlord in her own faction without needing to sacrifice her love for showmanship and music and her positive disposition. When we were officially introduced to her, they show how she seems to care about actually taking care of her people, not JUST ordering them around, by talking to them personally and giving advice. That's exactly what Charlie wanted to do for her people, isn't it? The hotel to Charlie was what the emporium was to Rosie. They have a lot of similarities that could set up for Rosie to be the one to teach Charlie in becoming a leader. Now whether that's a good thing or a bad thing remains to be seen, but it is rather compelling.

So yeah! With all that said, I really dont think this show ignores its women at all. Just because a bigger part of the fandom gravitated towards the men doesn't necessarily mean its a misogynistic show so far. But if certain people are claiming that the women are badly written, then I hope they also own up to the fact that their blorbos are just as shallowly presented within the show, maybe even more so. Which wouldn't even be a bad thing! Since when did a show or character have to be amazingly written for a person to like them? That's just no fun at all. All I'm saying is... Fuck this fandom's double standards, hiding behind claims that it's the writing's fault when the problem is they couldn't be bothered to think about the women.

[fandomapocalypse]

Love and relationships in Hazbin Hotel

Episode 7 has something interesting and in the song that is called "Out for love" is sung by a character that is referring to a type of love different from a romantic or sexual one, Carmilla is openly talking about familial love. Vaggie of course relates this to her romantic feelings towards Charlie and how she wants to help her. But something else interesting happens in episode 7, Rosie is properly introduced as Alastor's bestie. This leads to showing another type of love: platonic love.

Now to the main point of this post: Alastor. It's canon that he is aroace and as an ace myself (I'm still questioning whether I'm aromantic or demiromantic but this post isn't about me lol) I'm extremely happy to see myself through him. Plus, the fact that the perfect Tumblr sexyman is aroace is genius and hilarious, you can't possibly top this type of humor.

Alastor for me has been a great ace representation and I've seen myself mainly in how he acts around his friends or other people.

When it comes to Niffty it looks more like a relationship between someone with their feral cat or their crazy little sister. But it's still a genuine connection and a fun chaotic one at that, he even lets her touch his hair and climb on him. In regards to Mimzy, he has shown he cares about her and welcomes her with open arms. He openly hugs her, which shocks everyone in the cast. This is extremely important because Alastor usually only starts physical contact to mock others or to pretend physical closeness as a manipulation tactic (like he often does with Charlie). When it comes to people he hates Alastor may touch them but will quickly wipe his hand on his clothes, like what he did with Lucifer. Personally, I don't like personal contact and only accept it if I start it and usually I use it as a way to show affection with close friends. Also, they have known each other since they were alive, so Mimzy probably knows a lot about Alastor that the rest of the cast doesn't. Mimzy also says that they used to dance together. But that doesn't exclude the fact that she uses Alastor's friendship and affection to save her own ass and taking into account how Husk reacted to Mimzy, this isn't the first time she does this. Also, the relationship between the two starts to crumble after what happened in episode 6 and Mimzy seems to be the kind of friend who will pretend that they are still on good terms and still ask Alastor for favors in the future.

Now jumping back to Alastor's true bestie: Rosie. They probably bonded at first over their cannibalistic natures but it's clear that it evolved beyond that. Personally, I don't ship Alastor with anyone, but when it comes to Rosie I headcanon they are in a QPR.

There are various reasons why this relationship is so great and wholesome, the first one being that there is no power imbalance, they are equals. Both are cannibalistic overlords and are on equal footing in terms of power. When Rosie first sees Alastor she is genuinely happy which is something new because most people react badly to him out of fear or hatred.

Alastor respects Rosie, he even compliments her, in her introduction he says she is "the most darling, delightful, and dangerous Overlord of this side of the pentagram". Considering how self-centered and narcissistic he can be, it means a lot. Alastor would rather die again than compliment another Overlord who isn't Zestial, which he respects but out of fear. Alastor respects Rosie as his close friend. When they stand next to each other they give an air of equals, something that never happens thanks to Alastor's ego and sadism towering over everyone else. With Rosie it's different and Rosie can openly tease Alastor with the "Look at you, so polite! Alastor you can learn a thing or two" when comparing him to Charlie when meeting her, or "I'm just kidding, I know you're an ace in the hole" to tease him about his asexuality. This is something that not a lot of people can do because Alastor is obsessed with control and respect. After all, we see how badly he reacted when Husk insulted him.

He also harmonizes with her, he willingly makes a duet with her in "Ready for this". He isn't interrupting her, instead, he agrees with her and they sing together in unison. This is the first time he doesn't openly hijack a song or fight for control over it, like he did with Vox and Lucifer (although this also happened because this is Charlie's song, but who cares the point still stands). Also, this is the first time we see him dance with someone, instead of forcing them to join his musical number (like he does with Charlie on various occasions). Alastor and Rosie are in perfect sync and it's so wholesome and precious to see him being so openly happy with her. Many have pointed out that the only times Alastor is genuinely smiling is when he is with Rosie and it shows by his expression in his eyes.

Finally, Rosie is the only one capable of bringing the most human emotions out of him, the most obvious one being confusion. In the scene of "ace in the hole" Rosie manages to confuse and surprise Alastor for a solid second, which is a huge change of his persona around everyone else of control and manipulation. Also, it's hilarious that Alastor doesn't know what being aroace is, he probably thinks he is above all that.

He is openly relaxed around Rosie and lets her touch him in an affectionate way, something that not even Mimzy can do. It may be because of the height difference but Mimzy only touches Alastor to hug him and to emphasize he is a "heartless son of a bitch" and Alastor clearly gets irritated by her touching him that way and even moves her finger away from him. This never happens with Rosie and he even welcomes her touching him by not having any walls with her. It's Rosie the one starting the physical contact and Alastor doesn't seem to mind and he never tries to use physical contact to take advantage of her like he does with other characters. Rosie is one of the few people who can touch Alastor without losing an arm and instead have a positive reaction out of him.

The most genuine relationship Alastor has is with Rosie, he even has the confidence and comfort to stop his elegant and reserved persona of not swearing. Which he only does when he is truly angry, like what happened with Lucifer. Or when he is threatening someone like he did with Adam. Or when he is shocked when his microphone breaks. He swears to insult Susan, which is someone they both despise equally. Something that you would only do with your closest bestie.

Finally, let's talk about Alastor's breakdown in the last episode. We've already seen that Alastor is capable of having friendships that aren't based on an end goal. Alastor knows this but he rejects it because he is at the hotel originally for selfish goals and doesn't want his emotions to get in the way. He is terrified of ruining his reputation as a sadistic killer and becoming an altruistic who cares about his friends. Alastor wants to stop himself from starting to care about the crew the same way he cares about Rosie, Mimzy, or Nifty to some degree. This is confirmed by his conversation with Niffty, where he admits he has grown accustomed to the main crew and perhaps he is growing feelings of affection towards them in his own way.

In regards to shipping him with Rosie, I see it as a platonic ship or a QPR. Some people have a headcanon that if they had known each other when they were alive they would have married for tax benefits and to avoid the social stigma, which is the only right answer. When they first met in hell they probably had dates in cannibal town where they ate human flesh while gossiping and trash-talked about the other overlords. Which is exactly what an ace person like myself wants from a close friendship.

As an ace, I really like Alastor not because he is the ultimate Tumblr sexyman or see him as hot but because he is an extremely fun character that I can relate to. I'm grateful for the crew and VA that take into account he is aroace and take seriously that aspect of his character. I don't mind that the aroace representation in Hazbn Hotel is a narcissistic psychopath, if you want a more wholesome ace representation you can check Todd in Bojack Horseman or Saiki in The Disastrous Life of Saiki K.

I don't mind people shipping Alastor, after all, it's just people having fun, but you can't ignore that he is aroace and how this affects his relationships. So yeah have fun and respect and aroace community :)

ok thanks for hearing my rant bye

[showtoonzfan]

Ganna rant about Episode 4 of Hazbin again. For starters it has the same issue that Seeing Stars did for Helluva boss, that being Loona giving Octavia advice in comparison to Husk giving Angel advice. While the characters situations are different, both Loona and Husk were the wrong characters to pick to give advice, or simply just comfort the other character. I’ve already seen some people say that Charlie or Vaggie should have been the one to cheer Angel up, and that would have made more sense. They’ve known him longer and it’s in character for them to do that. For it to be Husk, not only does it feel forced as an excuse to just hook Angel up with a boyfriend and get the shipping fuel going, but it doesn’t make sense narratively.

In Loona’s case, her situation was flawed because she just MET Octavia, didn’t know a thing about her struggles and spouts to her about how she should be thankful just because her dad is “trying”, and the show tries comparing both girl’s situations when they’re not the same. This is practically the same situation with Angel and Husk. While Husk is aware of Angel, he barley knows him. He hasn’t been at the hotel that long considering the pilot took place only a week ago. On screen, all that Husk knew about Angel was that he was a porn star who constantly flirts with everyone, him especially, and we as the audience only see that and only that when the two interact. However episode 4 claims that Husk can see right through him and know that this is all part of his persona that he displays. If we had more time with these two characters outside of flirty banter scenes, this would make more sense, but instead it’s all tell and no show, being rushed with the little time we’re given. Husk even says that the hotel residents go to him to rant their sorrows while they’re drunk and even THAT happens off screen and that’s the problem, the audience has no reason to believe that Husk knows Angel deep down or even cares enough to want to help him, in our eyes, all Angel’s been doing is sexually harassing him.

There’s no reason why these two need to have an emotional scene together, it’s unearned and unwarranted because we haven’t had enough time with these characters, just like Loona and Octavia, there’s just no purpose or buildup. I also resort back to what I’ve said before: Husk selling his soul to Alastor is not the same as Angel selling his soul to Valentino. The show tries to compare Angel and Husk’s situations and it’s just not comparable because Alastor isn’t a rapist who’s trapping Husk to sell his body and be used like a rag doll constantly. Had it been something like “you’re a drug abuser and I’m an alcoholic”- THEN that would have worked, but that’s not what we get, and this leads me to talking about why “Loser Baby” isn’t good.

Some people have already misinterpreted my opinion, so here’s a few things. Is the song in character for Husk? Yes. Is the song about Husk telling Angel not to act and just embrace himself? Yes. On its own, the song is fine outside of some distasteful lines. The CONTEXT, execution, and placement of the song is the issue. Episode 4’s whole purpose is to see just how much Angel suffers. He’s forced to work like a dog at the studio day in and day out, and he gets abused and SA’d by his boss and other demons constantly. He doesn’t have a say in anything and can never say no because he’s under contract. He can’t Fizz his way out of this one and just go “I quit”, he’s literally forced to work in the porn industry wether he likes it or not, and we see all of that on screen. We also explore just how much this affects him. They reveal some pretty dark stuff here, how Angel doesn’t even want his position as a famous porn star and is so desperate to be numb from the pain and suffering he endorses that he’ll get high constantly and let people drug him for nefarious reasons, it’s his escape. They dump ALL of that info onto us, only for this bullshit to come up:

So the writers slut shame him, call him a freak and an addict to laugh at because “haha he’s addicted to drugs and a slut”, even though we JUST got done with a scene that confirms HE DOES ALL OF THIS AS A TRUAMA RESPONSE. He said himself he does the drugs and is addicted to numb the pain, and his own flirting (while problematic) is shown to be an act of him hyper sexualizing himself due to what he goes through. It’s not excusable but it’s still a fact, and we’re supposed to LAUGH at him??? That’s what’s wrong with his character and what continues to be wrong, because Viv sees him as the butt of the joke. Every line of dialogue he has is always about sex and how we should laugh because he’s a slut, an it comes off as so distasteful and insensitive to not only people who have been abused/SA’d, but porn actors in general. We’re supposed to laugh when he talks about cock and sex, but the reason he’s doing it is so dark that we shouldn’t be laughing about it at all cause he’s a VICTIM, yet Viv thinks it’s funny. It’s so disgusting and makes my stomach twist. Angel is trapped being in a position he doesn’t even want to be in, yet his entire character revolves around comedic sex jokes, and once you figure out the reason behind said sex jokes, it feels so wrong.

And this is why Loser Baby doesn’t work. Aside from everything else I’ve already said, It doesn’t line up with what Angel is going through, it doesn’t line up with the rest of the episode. If you wanted Angel to have this arc about realizing he doesn’t need to stick to his persona, fine, but you should have done it in a different episode. This is why Husk comes off as telling him to just suck it up and stop whining rather than what he’s actually trying to say. It looks bad with how they executed it, it just looks like he’s telling an SA victim to get over it and stop whining and what’s worse is they compare their situations when it’s not the same. You literally have a scene of Angel telling Husk he lets people drug him, and not even a minute later Husk is calling him a loser. That’s the issue. The show doesn’t know how to read the room, build character relationships slower, is just so incredibly tone deaf and is hypocritical. We’re supposed to feel bad for Angel cause he’s sexualized to the maxes and is having trauma responses of that, but then we’re also supposed to laugh at him and his sex jokes while also finding him hot. Pick a fucking side Vivienne, the show wants to have its cake and eat it too and look where that’s gotten us. The writing is a fucking atrocious mess and yet it had so much potential if Viv actually cared enough to take Angel seriously, instead of just desperately wanting to give him a boyfriend, and a rushed arc where he magically feels better in the end.

[deadlyangelofpurity]

You know with how safe edgy Viv's shows I don't see why the setting is in Hell. I feel like Viv shot herself in the foot by doing this because it seems like Viv wants the praise of being considered edgy but she's too cowardly to follow through so we're trapped in this weird limbo where Viv wants to be edgy but is obviously putting on the brakes.

I think part of the problem Viv is quite immature.

Despite Viv being an adult, it is very evident in her writing style that she hasn't quite matured past the edgy teen phase and whilst her animation and drawing skills are good despite the questionable character designs, her writing is by far the weakest part of her skill set. It doesn't help Viv seems very impulsive and changes her mind on a whim and is willing to turn the story upside down at all costs as it's why Helluva Boss went from a dark comedy to Stolitz melodrama soap opera.

Not to mention Viv has amassed the wrong kind of audience for this show. Let's be honest with ourselves, despite Viv's show being rated adults, I am like 99% certain that at least a fairly large chunk of Viv's audience are teenagers and young adults at best who have been watching her since her channel got popular and most of these people primarily care about shipping and tend to be...immature and more volatile. I think that's partially why the writing is so juvenile because Viv is scared of alienating her audience. I think that's why she made Ozzie care for consent and Bee being concerned over people overindulging because Viv didn't want to make them unlikable at the cost of consistency. It's also probably why Lucifer's more evil pilot incarnation got changed into some wacky silly uwu depressed boy.

Viv seems to play favorites and she doesn't hide it. It's very obvious that when Viv favors a character, they become more likable almost instantly or at least she tries to make come off that way, though it's more noticeable with people like Stolas, Fizz and Lucifer. Compare their initial impressions in their debut episodes and you'll see a stark difference. I also think Viv is overall way too close to her fanbase because she takes ideas from them and she ain't subtle. Vaggie being a fallen angel was a fan theory that slipped into canon, Stolas and Blitzo meeting as kids was based off fan art and Hell, Chaggie wasn't even her idea(which probably explains how dull and unnecessary their relationship is) because a crew member made it and Viv being impulsive put it into canon despite Vaggie and Charlie acting more akin to best friends and honestly given how Vaggie's fallen angel backstory makes things so weird, I genuinely think she'd be better not existing in this series.

Honestly I'd at least respect Viv if she at least stuck with her guns here. Instead she's pretty much playing ping pong in terms of consistency because Viv's version of Hell is more or less Detroit but painted red.

[alastorssimpforever]

Part 1: My Take on Hazbin Hotel Ships

I am a multishipper at heart.

A very long post btw

Spoilers for Hazbin Hotel Season One!

HOWEVER NO SPOILERS FOR SEASON 2 IN HERE AT ALL!

Chaggie:

They supported each other through the roughest of times and while they doubted each other, they got through it together. Vaggie never fails to show how much she loves Charlie in each episode and she's Charlie's rock. Charlie loves Vaggie dearly and even when she was revealed to be an angel, her love won out for her. Relationships are hard and secrets like that, even rougher but they've grown stronger together.

Vaggie is always tough on everyone else but always treats Charlie with a gentleness that shows her tender side. The two will never hesitate to fight for their loves one, especially when the other is in danger.

It's a perfect trope of Forbidden Love and honestly, just a sweet sapphic ship.

Huskerdust:

Two broken people who find the good in each other. They're duet in Loser Baby bonds them together. And right off the bat, Angel Dust starts flirting with him and Husk starts rolling his eyes. But despite all this, Angel Dust being high energy and sexual...Husk perfectly pairs him with his nonchalant attitude.

They're banter is seeming less. Husk can see right through Angel Dust's facade and he can see the person behind the big old porn star persona.

They're a perfect trope for opposite attracts and somewhat sunny x grumpy.

CherriSnake:

Pentious was always an adorable stuttering mess in front of Cherri Bomb and honestly this one-sided love was endearing. And hilarious. Cherri Bomb is the super hot girl next to the awkward nerd. It's a cute pairing. Even Cherri Bomb admitted after the kiss that it was hot.

it's personally not my cup of tea but I'm sure its delightful for other people!

Charlastor:

Right in the pilot, we see this charming pair have a dance and a duet together. The two also have a lot of similarities in that they both have matching outfit and love to sing and dance. Alastor always appears to be intimate and gentle towards Charlie, even encouraging her in her singing.

And come on, in the pilot, he called her a demon belle. And in Episode 8 of Season 1...you gotta admit that was a treat for Charlastor shippers. Kicking his feet on her bed and getting close to her.

The appeal for me is that the two have very different views of the world with Charlie being more optimistic contrasted with Alastor's cynicism. In a platonic match, Alastor could help Charlie become more assertive and Charlie help Alastor become more kinder or at least, less murderous.

Cherrimoth:

Did they interact for like two seconds in canon? Yes. Do I care? No. Their outfits do have eerily similar qualities, the two sport X's on their outfits as well and both have a singular eye. And honestly, the pink and purple complexations look great together!

Now in personality, they would drive each other crazy in a good way. Cherri Bomb would help Vaggie grow in being less conservative while Vaggie would help Cherri Bomb be less chaotic. The two could really help each other grow better as people.

I personally think it's a cute pairing with flecks of a 80s rock star romance for some reason. I can already hear Vaggie calling Cherri a "diabolita" in an adoring way.

Radiodust:

Angel Dust is the only one that can make Alastor truly flustered. The dynamic is also hilarious. The idea that the efficient porn star can pull off the crazy murderer is cute and yes, comedical in a good way. Also the conservatively dressed Radio Star compared with Angel's Dust lack of humbleness makes the odd couple very interesting.

Two very opposing world views crashing together and choosing to be together is fascinating. Also those two would kill at a ballroom dance. The ship has so much potential for some unhingeness.

Also radiodust is such a pretty ship name!

Guitarspear:

Two smug asshole in love? I LOVE IT! And yes, it's sad but also bittersweet that Lute was the only one that mourned Adam's death. The two are ride or die for each other. And while Adam is still a huge jackass, he still does respect Lute's opinion.

They're banter is seeming less. She always plays off his jokes. Whenever the two are together, they seem to steal the stage. They're humor matches. Do they help each other grow? No. Do they still encourage each other? Sure.

And the nickname "Dangertits" while its a little insane, is kind of cute. They're relationship is unique. A bromance you could say.

Staticmoth:

Another assholes in love pair. These two are no good for each other and I'm sure only encourage each other. They're terrible people but they're terrible together. A fire evil power couple if I've ever seen one.

Vox is the only one that can calm down Val. And you know, Val is a crazy son of a bitch and Vox is the only one that can handle him. They both have a flair for drama and killed it with their dancing in that one scene. And the two of them both have it out for two of the guests at the hotel.

They're both crazy and they can be crazy with each other. Also both of them have a damaged part of their bodies. Val with his antenna and Vox with his...antenna too??? They must have been through something together.

Radiostatic:

They hate each other. Guys, the chemistry is already there. Buckle up for some toxic and doomed yaoi. We got a down bad Vox who will not admit his feelings and Alastor, who continuously taunts him. And they had a history where they were friends (or maybe more)??? Hell yeah! sign me up! The angst and drama is doing its job!

It's a perfect Lovers to Enemies (to Lovers?) trope. They're relationship is tumultuous and they want to kill each other. It's perfect! Say less! And they both match each other and rival each other through their different entertainment medias? Yas!

And "Stayed Gone" was an amazing duet! It's the song that absolutely sold me on Hazbin Hotel.

Radiohusk:

I am all for Alastor's spontaneity compared to Husk's gruffness. These two are dapper gentlemen with similar outfits. And hell, they both have been overlords. One didn't turn out to be so lucky. Also Alastor annoys the hell out of Husk which can have some appeal. And I also wonder how that card game went between them? Speaking of which...

I do want to be positive about this ship but the one thing I have against it is that Alastor owns Husk's soul. That's the one thing. But I'm sure some people are into that.

RadioApple:

Old man toxic yaoi. What's not to like? Enemies to lovers fits this pairing well. Right off the bat, they despised each other. They drive each other crazy. They were both competing for Charlie's attention. And does Alastor see Charlie as a daughter probably not?

The best part? He was only doing it to tick Lucifer off. The pettiness of it all was absolutely wonderful!

And "Hell's Greatest Dad"? One of the best songs on the track list. It was an upbeat, mind blowing duet that swept me off my feet. In all honesty, it was an endearing argumentative encounter over Charlie which makes it so appealing.

And yes, who doesn't want a splash of Enemies to Lovers? It's intense and it's a whirlwind of emotions. And between the two most dramatic and over the top characters in the show? SAY LESS!

Lucilith:

It's honestly an adorable couple. The first two people driven to sin? Willingly to deny Heaven and Earth just for the sake of their love? Two people driven to change the world for the better? These two stayed true to themselves and raised an adoring daughter.

If Lucifer and Lilith ever cross paths again, I do hope they can solve whatever happen. I just got to say I love the tragedy of it all. Falling together into the abyss of sin they had created, the first two dreamers of a new world.

I just know those two are attracted to each other as fuck. It goes beyond anything. Even though, they may have grown apart it's clear that Lucifer may still have feelings for Lilith (he still has his wedding ring). Hell, he was devasted when she left.

I hope we get a second chance romance with those two. It would be sweet for Charlie to have her parents get back together.

Radiorose:

An old timey platonic romance? AAAAAAAAAH! And they both have immaculate style and wonderful dancing skills. It's a perfect couple from the 1920s with a vibe of Mary Poppins and Jack. I find them to be very charming and cute together.

In this gif the also almost, just barely kiss! EEEEE! I can totally see these two gossiping over some tea and flavored pinkies. I love the domestic, comfortable feel to this relationship. While, it may not be a whirlwind romance, it's adorable. They dance, the sing, and they laugh together. Hell, Rosie is the only one that truly seems to evoke a true smile from Alastor.

Alzy:

Mimzy got a bad rap due to interrupting "Dad Beats Dad". And if they may not ever get together again, I like the idea of them formerly dating in life. Alastor also seems to very fond of Mimzy and they both seem to go way back.

Also fun fact: Mimzy and Alastor were supposed to be dating in the show but in the end, it didn't happen. Also the idea of a Radio Star and a Southern Belle is very endearing to me. They grew up in the same city I suppose and they've been through a lot together. It's cute. Alastor is also very gentle and kind with her. Although, I'm not a fan of Mimzy playing the damsel in distress and have Alastor deal with her problems.

Another note is that it refreshing to see a woman in this show with more variation in her proportions.

Zestmilla:

I love their dynamic. They both defend each other. And you cannot tell me that Zestial acts like a father figure to Carmilla Carmine's two kids. It's adorable. And I'm all for a power couple!

I wish I could say more but we got so little of them that I really can't. Maybe we'll see more of them in further seasons!

Adamsapple:

Lucifer accidentally saying he was going to FUCK Adam was the best thing ever. And Adam shoving Lucifer into a wall a second later? EEE! Yes, it a crack ship? Yeah, kinda. Do I care? Also the history between these two is priceless. Yes, has Lucifer stolen all of Adam's wives? Yes.

But whose heart has he not stolen yet? ADAM! All the fics I've read about them either have these two in Eden or when Adam reincarnates as a sinner. Are they crazy and wonderful? YES! I LOVE IT I LOVE IT I LOVE IT! I'm all for the unhingeness of the relationship.

And the angst? God, don't get me started on the angst! It's delicious.

Angelicradio:

A good old Enemies to Lovers pair! I love it! It's definitely not that popular but I'm all for it. Also their fight was lit. I do have to explore more about this duo but I'm afraid there's very little of it out there.

FallenWings (Lute x Vaggie):

Hell yeah, toxic and doomed yuri. They've got history, they hate each other. And Lute may be a lesbian/woman lover in denial. If Lute ever had a relationship with Vaggie, Hell, she still has a lot of religious guilt packages to unpack.

The thing that really draws me to this pair is yes, it's toxic. But the angst, the drama, and the betrayal. The forbidden love must have been insane.

The idea of them being exes is probable and spicy. But honestly the trope of Friends to Lovers to Enemies is not used enough. AND I'M HERE FOR IT!

RoyalHalo (Charlie x Emily):

Emily and Charlie got along so well right off the bat! I mean they matched each other's extorted festiveness and they even have similar personalities. The hand touching on Emily's hand got my attention.

They're pretty cute together. And they're outfits look amazing together! They're a pretty fluffy couple that probably wouldn't have many issues. Although Vaggie was explicitly glaring at Emily when Charlie and Emily were holding hands, possibly alluding to a future love triangle. Big maybe though!

And these two teamed up together going against Heaven! AAAAHHH! They're duet was amazing!

Guitarprincess:

Alright, here goes a controversial ship. Is it the ultimate form of toxic? Yes. Is it the best kind of crack? Yes. Is he a big asshole and she's the sweetest thing ever, yeah? Did he try to destroy her Hotel and kill her? Yeah.

The fact that he kept calling her babe was cute. Yes, was it meant to be condescending. Yepppp. But still interesting.

I DON'T KNOW I'M OBSESSED WITH ENEMIES TO LOVERS! IT'S AMAZING! And ngl, they give a Hades and Persephone kinda vibe (the good kind). And to add on, the fics I have read about them were AMAZING!

Baxty:

Nope, Baxterhas not appeared in Hazbin yet but I love him already! He's gonna be that moody scientist and Niffty is gonna annoy the Hell out of him. I just hope the dynamic is that he is the only one that puts up with Niffty.

We also need more short Kings out here apart from Lucifer. AAAAH! I THINK THEY'RE GOING TO BE SO CUTE! And Baxter is going to be her (cute) bad boy.

Roo x Charlie:

I'm here to spread some Roo x Charlie propaganda! I'm sure I'm like the only one that ships it but HEAR ME OUT! Toxic yuri at its finest. Roo is the Root of All Evil while she represents all the sins, the Sin of Lust is what drives Roo towards Charlie. Roo becomes obsessed with corrupting Charlie's almost incorruptible persona. And would it be fire to see Roo tempt Charlie to the dark side a little bit, let that devil in Charlie come out just a tad?

The angst would be absolutely amazing. And my idea is that Vaggie is the only one that can see through Roo's lies and she knows she's bad for Charlie. Vaggie knows Alastor is no good, but my, Roo is double the danger.

Also do I want to see an epic hero x villain thing? Yes. And TWO BEAUTIFUL WOMEN? HELL YEAH!

Striker x Alastor:

Two badass asexuals together? WHEW! And they're both delightfully terrifying? LETS GOOO! Another fire, power couple.

GuitarMaid:

Yet another wonderful crack ship! Another instance of Niffty scaring the shit out of someone. And honestly, if Adam came back as a sinner it would be interesting to see the pair reconcile. Adam would surely HATE Niffty at first.

But maybe, just maybe something more and weird may bloom.

Lovebug:

I think this ship is hilarious. And even Niffty, is the only that can freak Valentino out or should I say overdo his freak. It would honestly be kind of satisfying to see Valentino be terrorized by Niffty.

It's a beautiful crack couple.

Chaggistor:

Why fight over Chaggie and Charlastor when you can just combine them? And there would always be that spice of tension between Alastor and Vaggie that keeps the poly fresh. And honestly, it would be great! All the people invovled in the hotel in a polycule! AMAZING!

Chaggily:

It's a wholesome poly ship. And honestly they'd be a killer throuple. Absolutely unstoppable.

Maybe I'll do a part 2. Shoot me an ask if you want me to add a ship I didn't add here in a part 2!

[n3felibata]

I made a post on Reddit titled "Hot take but I feel like many if not most Stolitz antis are either homophobic or just hypocrites" and I even had to clarify at the end that not all Stolitz antis are like that. Cue the replies harassing me, taking it as a personal attack on them and making baseless accusations about me. One of them even sarcastically said "Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong and bigoted" as a way to make fun of me. I never said anything remotely similar to that. I don't think they bothered to actually read past the title where I explained that Stolas and Blitzø meeting as children is compared to a bad fanfic when that never gets said about straight couples in media who met as children and that people who hate Stolitz for what it is now only tolerated it when it was just a running gag, as if they can't stand it when gay relationships are being taken seriously. I also mentioned that even non-homophobic Stolitz antis complain about how toxic it is and then turn around to ship Blitzker. (Blitzø x Striker)

I had a similar experience. It's so stupid because like, some of them aren't even subtle about it. Same for chaggie antis. I remember seeing a post talking about how much Charlie doesn't get enough dick, so she's unsatisfied and needs Alastor. Like... I'm sorry, what?

A lot of the arguments stolitz antis are literally inherently bigoted. Like how they want Stolas to be paired with Stella instead even though he's gay. And STILL hating him for "cheating" after The Circus even though he's a gay man being forced to marry an abusive woman? Idk, that's... a red flag 💀 The same people saying stolitz is one sided were the same ones saying that Stolas and Stella were in love not to long ago... sounds like heteronormativity...

And a lot of them are Stella defenders? Sorry that I came to the conclusion that the people doing mental gymnastics defending the cishet abuser calling the gay male abuse victim the abuser may be homophobic 😭

Like, it's not that different from female characters who get hate while the same people shitting on her praise fictional men who are worse or do the same shit. There are clear double standards here. These people turn around and praise cishet media with very similar writing, characters and tropes as Helluva Boss. And not only that, but it's not even just about their relationship specifically. Like, I have a theory that the whole controversy about Stolas being an "abusive" father is because of the stereotype that queer people can't be good parents. And the whole "child and parent have conflict but make up in the end" trope happens in fiction all time (example: Danny Tanner, Jeff Morales, Doofenshmirtz, ect.) Weird how it only became abuse and neglect with Stolas and Via.

Some people are blantly saying they wanted stolitz to "stay a joke", and it feels obvious to me that a lot of them just like queer characters who are queer in a goofy "dark humor" way and not an actual character with queer struggles and/or queer relationships.

People who say "but I disagree and I'm not homophobic!" Be expecting you to give them a pat on the back or something, I swear 💀 Like... good for you? Thanks for not being a bigot? Do you want a reward?

What I don't think people understand is that if they're not homophobic, then the post isn't about them. The fact that they're getting so defensive about posts directed at no one in particular is just weird because it looks worse than it would be if they just kept scrolling. Now it just kind of seems like Freudian Slip.

No one was looking at you until you said something

Of course they're not all the same, but I've seen people straight up call them the f slur

Sorry that happened to you. Just remember that Reddit is INFAMOUS for being toxic, so don't take what people on that app have to say to heart. Like, it's up there with Twitter and Tumblr...

And wouldn't you know it? Those are the 3 sites I see the most Stolas and Blitz hate.

Interesting

[imhidingonceagain]

Slimeriana and QSMP fans, we need to talk (really, I'm going to talk about a few things).

CW: nsfw

Warning: long post.

At this point I think majority of you guys know what happened with Mariana yesterday (especially because the fliporiana community is small compared to other ones).

I'm gonna write some stuff Mariana said and I'm gonna be explicit about it because I want you guys to understand the severity of the situation (this is your warning):

Context: He was curious to see if people actually posted nsfw stuff about him (and poor boy, he really thought he wouldn't find any).

And I quote what he said after seeing some posts: "No, no, no! Why's Slime penetrating me?!" (He was probably looking at a fanart)

"I'm not doing role like that with Slime anymore. I thought you guys found it funny (he was talking about the sex role in the QSMP) but it only fills your minds with shit"

"I'm gonna say it in English because I know there's QSMP fans who do it as well: Don't draw hentai about me, don't draw us fucking, that's being a pervert, that's wrong"

Some months ago I wrote a post when we got the first warning in regards of this topic.

Mariana and Slime have talked about fanart before and at the time they didn't seem uncomfortable about it (though it seems like Charlie's girlfriend was).

So I wrote: it's not necessary to stop doing fanart about them. Just be careful with what you draw and where you post it.

To me even "suggestive" fanarts are "okay" (but with suggestive I mean the characters looking at each other like they want to kiss each other so bad, that's it). But when and how did that translate to some of you thinking that drawing real people having sex and not only having sex (because there's always ways to show intercourse without being explicit or disgusting) but also showing private parts is okay?

Because it's obvious Mariana saw something super explicit by the way he reacted (because he doesn't get bothered too easily). My poor man was distressed!

And let me tell you something. This is not only about Mariana and Slimecicle. This is a REAL PROBLEM within the fandom. Let me give you some examples:

I love reading fanfiction and months ago I was scrolling through the QSMP section on AO3 and let me tell you something: the amount of fanfiction written about the eggs and their parents in a non platonic way is CONCERNING.

Especially Wilbur Soot's fandom seems to have a lot of rotten apples who think that writing abusive stories about q! Wilbur and Tallulah is fine.

I understand some people write stories like that not because they're crime apologists, but because that's their way to deal with trauma (and dealing with trauma through art is okay). But PLEASE remember that while the eggs are fictional, their "parents" are REAL people.

Use fictional characters, please. Stop writing real people into pedophilic or highly abusive situations. THAT'S HORRENDOUS.

Another example is the following: Some weeks ago people were reporting a Twitter account and I clicked on the account (I personally don't like reporting people without making sure they deserved) and it took me like three seconds of scrolling to see more than 5 Ccs being disrespected (including Slimecicle, Quackity, Cellbit, Roier and Badboyhalo). Explicit Pictures, videos and fanarts were being posted about these creators.

You know what I think? I think Cellbit made his character asexual not only for the representation (it's clear by now that q! Cellbit is a sex positive asexual which is still representation yay!) But because he has been on the internet since around 2011 and he knows how disrespectful people can be. I think he knew that his and Roier's ship was getting too popular and that makes them both unprotected to shit like this.

Sadly, it's clear that it didn't matter that Cellbit made his character asexual, people can't seem to respect that detail about his character and about himself as a real person.

To some people it doesn't matter if the Cc is ambiguous or completely clear about their boundaries, they still don't give a fuck.

Please remember that behind each character is a real person. I understand sometimes you guys want to see your favorite characters fuck -me too, honestly- but for people like streamers that's out of the questions because not only they're real people, but because their work is related to social media and the possibilities of them finding EVERYTHING we write and post about them are super high.

I don't know how to feel. It's obvious that Mariana has not been feeling the same about the server since Juanaflippa died. Maybe this will make him feel even worse about the QSMP but I hope I'm wrong.

[princess-charlie-of-hell]

(Warning this post is going to be very anti Radioapple so don't read this if you like this pairing)

Are people seriously believing that Stolitz is a parallel to R*dioapple?!

Like I obviously can see the similarities from Lucifer and Stolas, both depressed fathers who are trying to connect with their daughters because they both are in complicated situations

But I don't really see how Alastor fits as Blitz as both of them are just different characters types in my eyes especially if their relationship with Lucifer and Stolas couldn't be more different

Stolas and Blitz know each other since their childhood and Blitz was Stolas first friend

Then they met later after Stolas is an arranged marriage with Stella then they later start their situation ship for the grimoure and I am not going to summarize their whole relationship because most probably know about it anyway

Then there is Lucifer and Alastor, both meet because of Charlie, from the start they hate each other and Alastor starts to act like Charlie's father just to annoy Lucifer then, I don't think anything more really happened between them except them fighting

Then there are also people who compare Lucilith with Stella and Stolas which honestly doesn't suprise me anymore because people seem to want an abusive Lilith so much so that Alastor can be Lucifer knight in charming armor so bad

But from what we know right now about the relationship between Lucifer and Lilith, it seems more to be the opposite of Stella's and Stolas

Stella and Stolas marriage was arranged from the start, there never was romantically interest in both Parties and they did it because they didn't had a choice really,Whereas Lucilith fell in love with each other because like in story at the beginning told us they both were dreamers, if anything you can see a slightly Resembles between Lucilith and Stolitz because in both situations a higher being fell in love with someone in lower position and their love caused trouble for them and just like Stolas, Lilith was in an forced marriage with Adam.

Lilith and Stella also can't really be compared to each other. Lilith, despite leaving for 7 years, seems to had before that a good relationship with Charlie that she despite seeing her mother not for years that she calls her when she needs emotional support like seen in the pilot. Despite not seeing much of the relationship between Stella and Octavia it seems like Stella was more a neglecting and maybe even emotional abusive parent like we seen in Sinsmas where we see drawings which Oktavia made as a child with only her and Stolas, Octavia also didn't really seemed to suprise how Stella acted while Stolas tried to call

Where Stolas hates deservingly Stella with a passion, we don't see that Lucifer has the same negative feelings towards Lilith and in the playbill it was said that he even misses his wife. It can of course be a possibility to miss an abusive partner but nothing we know yet about Lilith makes it seems like she was abusive towards Lucifer

I already said in an other post how the family pictures are differently from each other, the Morningstar family seems to be happy and comfortable with each other where in the goetia family Stolas and Octavia seemed happy because of each other, Stella looks like she thinks about murdering Stolas

So right now there is nothing which shows that Lilith and Stella have a similar personality and the only thing the both seem to have in common in my eyes is that both of them are hot (Sorry)

If it actually turns out that Lilith is like Stella then i still can't see Alastor being like Blitz in this situation if anything he would resemble more Andreaphlus. Both of them tried to manipulate The respective daughters for their advantage, Andreaphlus to get make Stolas feel terrible and Alastor for his own agenda

So right now I can't see how people say that the Stolitz and R*dioapple are similar if the dynamics and history between them is completely different

[arabella-s-arts]

I'm going to blow some people's minds with this.

Just because people are very close best friends, does not make them suddenly be siblings.

I know you all are probably thinking 'obviously.' It's just that I saw some comic panels that are of Batman and Superman where they think of each other as the closest that either will come to a brother. Meanwhile, I don't think that's their dynamic at all. I'm not just saying this because I do like them as a romantic pair (though, who knows, maybe this brother comment was a chance for the writers to go "no homo"). The thing is I also adore them as best friends, their relationship is clearly so special, and they understand each other in a way that's unique. And I don't think calling them brothers makes them closer.

Maybe a better example would be a pair I don't ship at all. Okay, then Alex and Harper from Wizards of Waverly Place. It was a sweet moment when Alex called Harper her 'sister' and it didn't annoy me. But that's just not how I see their relationship. Obviously if you see them as sisters, that's fine. I'm just saying they don't have to be sisters to be close.

Obviously, sometimes, the relationship between two best friends is a sibling dynamic. Charlie from Supernatural is totally Dean's little sister in my opinion. But I'm not about to call Benny his brother just because they're also best friends, y'know? (Benny gets away with calling people brother because that's just how he speaks.)

It's not like it never works, where someone calls their best friend their sibling even though that's not the dynamic. Dean calls Cas his brother, and while it's honestly kinda second-hand embarassing, I once saw an interesting post on how the closest relationship Dean has ever had is with his brother Sam. He doesn't have close ties on such a deep level outside of that relationship for most of his life. So the best way he can express those close ties, or how much a person means to him is by comparing it to brotherhood.

This is such a random and unimportant thing to rant about. And maybe it's just me being annoyed that people keep referring to my ships as 'brothers.' Idk... As always, if you have different opinions feel free to drop them in the comments. There's always a side I haven't considered, and I try to keep an open mind about things.

[veetowervaporwave]

Man I am so vanilla when it comes to ships in Hazbin...

Staticmoth: The epitome of toxic old men yaoi. They're just the worst. They push each other's buttons. They both have obsessions on the side but both want to be each other's center of attention. Other people's suffering gets them horny. They got married three times and divorced five times. They know exactly how horrible the other one is but it only makes them more attracted to each other. They're so toxic it's a health hazard for everyone around them. I wish nothing more than for them to die horribly while holding hands.

Chaggie: I've been shipping them since the pilot and I'll be real they were everything I wanted and even more. I always knew that their relationship would be mostly background stuff since they're an established couple, and I was excited to have something where the main character is in a stable and affectionate relationship. I didn't expect them to get a whole little storyarc with the whole angel drama... I'm just. So happy. Seeing them, knowing how much they supported each other over the years when they had no one else on their side, openly working out their issues... They're just everything that's good in the world.

Huskerdust: I feel about it a bit more differently compared to the previous two. I'm happy to see them just do whatever, but Huskerdust stands out because its development is kind of... part of the plot of the show, rather than just being an extra layer to their characters. I'm not even interested in fanfiction for them because I'm too excited to see how it progresses in the actual show.

Radiorose: QPR goals. Alastor having someone he's so comfortable with honestly elevated his character for me. I don't have a lot to say but I enjoy seeing them together immensely.

Appledust: guilty pleasure comfort ship, refer to this post for more context.

Ships I like less under the cut, I try not to be too mean but still, be careful.

Radiostatic (Or, I guess, Onewaybroadcast, rather): I like it a lot but only when it caters to my superspecific tastes. First of all it needs to be one-sided. The second Alastor reciprocates I'm like *Lucifer voice* "Who is this? Who is this man?" Second of all the "hate" part of the "hateboner" is essential (unless we're talking before their falling out). Vox both wants Alastor and wants him dead. It's been swirling inside him for years and had poisoned whatever relationship they had beforehand. There's no turning back from this.

RoyalHalo: I don't know how to explain it, but when I personally ship something "platonically", it's different from just regular shipping and different from having a brotp. Nothing much to say on the ship itself, they're cute.

Cherrisnake: I wish I could like it more but "Meh" is right. I think it has potential, unfortunately 8 episodes a season didn't allow it to develop. I wish we could have had Cherri before ep6 to establish her relationships with Angel and Pentious and I wish they had at least one genuine conversation before the end of the season.

Alastor x Charlie & Alastor x Angel: actually it's not about the ships themselves, just some bad experiences in the early fandom. Ik not all the shippers are like that, especially now when those ships are less popular and a lot of people are vocal about not liking them, but unfortunately I don't think I'll ever be able to enjoy them.

Lute x Vaggie: Nothing to say I just don't like it.

Val x Angel: I put a black line because my knee jerk reflex was to think of people like. Ignoring the abuse, but thinking about it, I do enjoy the exploration of their relationship if it's in-character. It's just not something I personally would consider "shipping". (But then what makes it different from onewaybroadcast? Guess I'm just a hypocrite or something)

"Found family" is a term that's used very differently by different people in the fandom, which is a little confusing to me, so I changed this category to "maybe".

Alastor x Husk: Much like the previous one, except I trust people with it even less after all the victimblaming Husk got after ep5.

Velvette x Vox and/or Velvette x Valentino: I don't ship those personally just for the reason that Vel genuinely seems uninterested, but I support the people who do. Especially the polyvees shipping. There's also additional element to this for me personally is that if Val and Vox were an item, there's a fear that Vel would come off as a third wheel or be pushed to the side, and if they were all together this wouldn't happen. So I have no choice but to support, even if I myself can't get into it.

Guitarspear: Lute ripping off her arm to go help Adam... The last thing Adam does before death is smile at her... God. They were also very fun hypemen for each other during songs, and just the general dynamic was really funny. I would say I like this ship when I see it, but I won't go out of my way to look for it?

Carmilla x Zestial: They're friends... The fanart is nice to look at. It's fine.

Radioapple: I'm conflicted. I guess I am kinda interested in what their relationship would be like in the show, but in fanworks I mostly enjoy the "they aren't actually attracted to each other but everyone thinks they are" dynamic. It's funny.

Pentious x Emily: Ok, one (1) crackship. My friend ships them and I kinda see the vision? Could be cute.

[valenschmidt]

Thanks for answering my ask! Yes, that's very true, Ryan has been consistently hated/viewed with suspicion and skepticism for years, so the majority of buddie fandom (who are Oliver stans) wouldn't want to ship him with Oliver. I distinctly remember one particular post (in Ryan's tag) a year or two ago that was like, "ugh if buddie goes canon i feel sorry for oliver having to kiss that man" 🙄

Lol yes I guess we have to thank bt shippers and their OTT vitriol for turning the tide somewhat. It's been nice to see a recent influx of vocal Eddie/Ryan fans join the fandom. So refreshing and entertaining.

Yes also I remember the super cute bts vids that popped up during/toward the end of s6, and some people tagging positively about Ryan (albeit begrudgingly!). But definitely a lot more people were on edge about rpf compared to now.

Ooooh so about Oliver being single, that's what I thought too! But someone else I sent an ask(?) to a while ago said that he didn't actually say anything concrete in his insta live, and that he is still with his gf 🤔 does anyone have any further confirmation either way? I'd love to know!

"this happens quite a lot when ships are about to go canon. People start projecting the ship onto the actors, especially when chemistry is REALLY huge " - this is a really interesting phenomenon you've pointed out!

No provblem anon! I love receiving asks!!

YES!!! I completely understand why people were really mad back then, especially black people and I also understand if there are still black people who haven't quite forgiven him and it's totally valid, because what he did was not ok (even if he never said that word he was still trying to justify his then wife's actions and that should have been a big no no) the problem is that people let it get a tad too far and spreading things that were NOT true to new fans in the recent years out of anger, making him seen like a terrible person who is a racist and hates black people when that is not true... Aisha and Angela were really mad back then but they both clearly have forgiven him (since Angela invited him to his anniversary party and Aisha to his wedding) and he has never done anything remotely similar again so I think he truly changed and has become better so I really believe people have started to see that and the bt being awful to him probably was a changing point to most of the fandom (not all because some still hate him) but well you can't change someone's views on people changing...

Also yes anon! A lot were completely against it calling it awful and whatnot and now are the biggest ryliver shippers (and getting viral over it when less than 6 months ago they would cancel you) and taking everything as ryliver signs but whatever I just hope they don't take things too far

To the Oliver thing... I watched that interview live and I'm 100% sure he said he's single but I can't for the life of me find a clip of the interview (if anyone finds it please send it to me!!!) But I remember that he said he was single and then kind of shaded his ex (lol) so yeah

As for the last thing... yup not many notice but it happens quite a lot. Just like how actors tend to fall in love with eachother (which doesn't happen all the time but it happens) in fandom it also happens that they believe they fall in love. Take heartstopper for example... Kit and Joe plan Nick and Charlie who are very in love but in reality they're just very good friends but people insist on shipping them or the Bridgerton actors that play Colin and Penelope as well... people project the feelings of their characters into their real life personalities because of the chemistry the actors have together. It's hard to comprehend the idea of acting so close to someone and play lovers and have so much chemistry but not falling in love

Wow now that was quite a lot 🤣

Sorry anon I got carried away

[alice-after-dark]

back at it again with my shitty fandom hottakes — if you’re still accepting asks about the whole “canon v. fanon” thing, that is — because i have ✨ opinions ✨ that have been ruminating in my head for a while now and i kind of wanted to throw them out into the void (i DO humbly apologise for the length — i have more than one talking point and am not known for my brevity lol)

(1) Alastor being sex-repulsed, or just sex negative in general.

yeah, we’re getting the controversial one out of the way first: probably should clarify that i personally AM a sex-repulsed aroace and therefore, i can See why people, including our fellow aces, naturally come to this conclusion — really, it’s only when people tote this statement as fact *specifically* to deter shipping that annoys the hell out of me. Alastor is a mysterious character: we REALLY don’t know much of anything about him in the grand scheme of things beyond what he *chooses* to reveal and that includes the matter of his sexuality — and frankly, he doesn’t reveal much of anything on that front, man doesn’t even know what an “asexual” *is*, XD. Most evidence I’ve seen citing his so-called sex repulsion that *isn’t* just dubiously canon at best supplemental material such as the Hunnicast or simply headcanon being repackaged as fact are the two scenes where Alastor turns down Angel Dust — a character who, especially at that point in the narrative, is VERY forward in his hypersexuality. The thing that i just don’t see a lot of people acknowledge, however, is: (1) Alastor turns him down, yes, but not in any way that would characterize him as being *particularly* sex negative (“Ha! *No.*”/“Haha! Never going to happen!”), he’s just bluntly rejecting Angel Specifically; and (2) Husk *also* rejected Angel and far more overtly before the two started to genuinely bond + is much more open about his discomfort with Niffty’s kinks, and yet he isn’t treated as sex-repulsed by the much of fandom — quite the opposite, in fact. Frankly, while i can *see* the reasoning behind portraying Alastor as sex-repulsed, the idea of him being this sex negative person who lashes out or faints at the notion of literally *anything* that can be perceived as sexual to be laughable when you consider his long-lived friendship with Mimzy — a *flapper* — and that he grew up in a period of great sex revolution in the United States: just because the 1920s is considered “prudish” by today’s standards doesn’t negate that fact; i can easily see Alastor as being repressed as a consequence of the time period and his unwillingness to adapt, but not to the extent that he’ll keel over seeing a fucking ankle getting flashed or while getting hit on — he *is* an adult, after all, and has had plenty of time to adjust to Hell’s general hedonism while not partaking in it himself.

(2) the infantilization of Charlie, Niffty, and Velvette. pretty self explanatory, i think: fandom in *general* has a pretty glaring issue of treating happy-go-lucky or just...short characters, especially women or neurodivergent characters, like children and it’s not *just* limited to hazbin fandom — it just makes me sad.

Charlie gets it slightly less *severely* compared to the other two, i believe, but i still see it crop of in some sects: yes, she’s clearly sheltered, and yes, she wears her heart on her sleeve to her detriment, but she’s also a grown ass woman (Faustisse — who i don’t personally consider a reliable source for most things relating to the current day show by virtue to them having left the project in 2020 — has stated that she is around 200 years old, so i’m going with the general assumption she’s older than MOST sinners here) and she *is* trying to run a business beyond feel good therapy exercises, however messily because, frankly, she isn’t particularly *good* at doing business: still, i see certain sects of the fandom treat and portray her as having the naivety of a child, reducing her to an “uwu smol bean” blindly trusting even the shadiest of fuckers like Alastor without any hesitation or critical thinking whatsoever under the notion of “well, EVERYONE can be redeemed” and relegating characters like Vaggie to be glorified babysitters at *best*: in canon, yes her ideas of redemption aren’t particularly well-rounded *yet* and it’s clear there’s a disconnect between her and other sinners due to her upbringing, but she *isn’t* an idiot — she’s well aware Alastor is shifty as fuck and doesn’t have her best interests at heart no matter how much she hopes he secretly *does* care, that’s *why* she held off on making any deals with him until she was driven into a corner, and she has no problem calling people out on their shittiness or showing her teeth just because she leans more towards pacifism compared to the rest of the cast.

Niffty, frankly, isn’t treated *much* better in canon compared to fandom, but that’s honestly a rant for a *different* day: it’s obvious she likely has SOME kind of disorder to explain much of her more eccentric behaviour, frankly we can speculate but we simply won’t know for sure until we know more about her in general, which *may* come in s2 considering where things left off with her. Oftentimes in fanon, she’s pigeonholed into simply being “Alastor’s hypomanic daughter” rather than her own individual character, which is a shame — it’s obvious the two have an amicable relationship despite her being his thrall, but it doesn’t read as particularly familial to me personally beyond him finding her antics amusing (and in a, frankly, patronizing way typical of Alastor) — and she’s regularly coddled, not allowed to have relationships with other characters *beyond* a parental dynamic with deerboi or husk: despite the actual show pointing to her having, at the very least, a friendly relationship with Mimzy and the rest of the hotel’s guests, and her being a former housewife who’s explicitly into hardcore kink/BDSM.

Velvette getting this treatment is the most egregious to me, tbh: i’ve frequently seen her be boiled down to being staticmoth’s glorified wingwoman/their daughter rather than their *equal* and business partner — frankly, i think people hear that she was the “youngest Overlord” and took that in the most literal way possible to portray her as a glorified teenager, her being a social media influencer not helping matters in that regard because people tend to subconsciously associate social media primarily with teenage girls due to bias. i can’t speak on *some* aspects of her infantilization in fandom that gives me a particular case of the “ick”, but I can’t help but be bothered by it showing up even in work I *enjoy*. Food for thought, all that jazz.

(3) Vox being portrayed as this overly flirtatious and horny 24/7 voyeur creep guy, *especially* around Alastor. this may just be my bisexuality speaking, but it just...*doesn’t* sit well with me when so far the only *confirmed* bisexual male character in the show is written with this sleazy behaviour he doesn’t exhibit in the show proper — yes, he’s suave and charismatic, and clearly not a prude considering his frenching with Val and...well, Val: “[which whore] could i be talking about?!” Vox: [points to self], and yes, he runs surveillance literally *everywhere*, but...[sighs] He Would Not Fucking Say That, guys — where at *best*, he’s a horndog, and at worst, an outright rapist, who’s *solely* driven by his obsession with Alastor and fuck the rest of his character, i guess. It just...makes me uncomfortable. but hey, that’s just me.

(christ on a stick this is a lot, i am so, so sorry :skull:)

Oh, MK, this was delicious. Do not apologize for the length, I am absolutely delighted. I am always interested in hearing peoples’ hot takes!

(1) Alastor being sex-repulsed, or just sex negative in general.

I totally get you on this one and honestly, I never thought about the Husk angle but you’re absolutely right. Husk rejects Angel way more often that Alastor and yet I have never seen Husk labeled as sex-repulsed, yet Alastor is labeled as that for…doing the exact same thing? What? I’m asexual and possibly aromantic myself, and this just rubs me the wrong way with people just assuming because he’s asexual that he doesn’t like sex full-stop. Not how it works.

I also really like how you point out the historical context of it. The 1920s were a time, man. This fic explores some of the crazy things that went down in the 1920s and it’s wild. But yeah, the idea that he would freak out over any little sexual thing (which…we actively see him not do?) is frustrating and kind of makes him out to be this delicate flower whose innocence must be protected.

Now, if people want to make him sex repulsed for various reasons, then go right ahead, but I definitely agree that it irks me when I see people trying to use it as an argument against literally any ship with Alastor.

(2) the infantilization of Charlie, Niffty, and Velvette.

Yeah, I definitely see this. Charlie is naive, but it gets ramped up a lot. People forget she is literally now an official war veteran and has actually led an army into battle. She is an overwhelmingly positive character, yes, but she’s not an infant. We even saw in the pilot that she was cautious and hesitant to even speak to Alastor, let alone make a deal with him (she slammed the door in his face twice). She is kind and emotional and optimistic, but she’s not stupid. She wants to see the best in everyone. This doesn’t make her a child. And like you said, we see her demon side come out when she’s angry. She’s not above getting pissed and letting it show when she really wants to.

I think people honestly forget that Niffty is not a child. She looks like one, but yeah no she’s an adult. Like you pointed out, this is done pretty frequently in canon and fanon. I honestly like her and Alastor more as friends than as a parental relationship, someone who entertains him and he genuinely enjoys the company of. I do hope we get to see a little bit more of her being an actual character in season 2 because I do love her and want to see better for her.

Velvette is complicated for me as the Instagram kind of did set her up as their daughter, so I think a lot of people got used to that concept. But honestly? I prefer them as equals. I can see Vox taking on more of a mentor role with her when they first started out while Valentino was more her creative BFF, but ultimately she is shown to be a capable character who can stand on her own two feet. I do think the whole social media thing and her being the youngest plays into her infantilization alongside her previous incarnation, but I definitely prefer her as an equal player in the game.

(3) Vox being portrayed as this overly flirtatious and horny 24/7 voyeur creep guy, especially around Alastor.

Fucking THIS. Okay, gonna just jump forward a bit here, but people calling him a creepy horny voyeur because of the cameras bothers me so much. HE. IS. A. CONTROL. FREAK. Those cameras aren’t for him to jack off to! They’re literally to siphon information and blackmail and anything else useful. He is a connoisseur of information. Literally every instance where we see him using his camera, HE IS INFO GATHERING. The one exception is when he is watching Alastor’s fight with Adam and that is clearly outside his norm. That being said, I think people take that scene and run with it, especially his comment about being “so hard right now,” which I think is ridiculous. He’s exaggerating, he’s having fun and joking around because the guy he hates is getting his ass handed to him. And the idea that his obsession with Alastor rules his brain 24/7 is a hard pass for me. The man is the CEO of a media and technological empire. He does not have the time to devote his every waking moment to obsessing over Alastor. In the scene where Pentious calls him, it’s pretty clear that Vox was busy doing other things both times he was called. He wasn’t sitting around with bated breath waiting for Sir Pentious to report in. He was just going about his day and getting his shit done.

Also hard agree as a fellow bisexual that it’s troubling that the only confirmed male bisexual character gets so hypersexualized in a way that he…doesn’t demonstrate at all? Literally the one time we see him get sexual is the fight with Adam. That’s it and yet suddenly it’s his entire personality. The flirtiest we ever see him act is during his part with Valentino in the finale and even that isn’t focused on sex or romance. It’s more them talking about being in power.

[hazbinstohell]

When you compare Chaggie to other canon relationships in the universe, like Fizzmodeus, Moxillie... You realize how poor they really are in comparison. The fact that they are already a couple when the show begins is not an excuse, especially when you compare once again to these two canon couples already established that I cited above. Even StaticMoth vague secondary relationship seems more interesting from what little we've seen of it, not to mention the borderline mythological story of Lucilith which is extremely intriguing. Not to mention the relationships in development like Stolitz (frankly epic by the way) CherriSnake and Huskerdust... I mean, compared to all these other main romantic relationships that are already canon, those that are more or less canon but secondary, and those that are currently being developed... Chaggie is no match for me... I heard that they were originally just supposed to be best friends and that the designer changed that at the last minute ? Well if it's true, it shows. And a lot. And it's a shame, because they have great potential. But I don't find it treated well enough... It's very sad to be called homophobic by part of the fandom for this simple difference of opinion.

I agree. I feel like we have both - we have multiple canon relationships that have been done, but they are treated as relationships that are developing or organically working, such as Millie and Moxie. While I understand that Viv decided to make Charlie and Vaggie a thing, it would also seem that from pilot to Season, they could have added some elements that make the relationship much more organic and such. To make Vaggie her “protector” just ruffles me up a lot. Seeing them maybe have more conversation, engaging, flirting, and such would have made more sense. Not “You have to be careful!” Or “Maybe we shouldn’t do something” does not tell me that the relationship is working. Charlie has some grand ideas that Vaggie doesn’t seem to accept.

I really like Charlie, and I want someone who could be supportive.

And then someone out there is going to be like “It isn’t Alastor!” I didn’t say that, however, he has done more for her confidence than Vaggie has, and I absolutely believe he is going to be a big bad for them, but then Charlie is going to lead him down a better path-which, unfortunately people STILL don’t seem to understand that that is the ENTIRE point of Hazbin-Sinners are not EVIL, they have made decisions that are not GOOD, and that Heaven themselves are also not making strict black and white choices with who they are putting there(Adam should be in Hell, change my mind).

Problem is, we have some great, GREAT characters! I love them all in their own way, but relationship mechanics? The story? Meh. I’m having fun with my own ship, and Chaggie can enjoy theirs. It’s as simple as that.

[weaselbeaselpants]

I really dislike Chaggie being compared to Jally. I ship both, but....

Jack and Sally aren't a couple in Nightmare til the very end. Jack only comes around once he's literally been shot at and forced to see things out of his fantasies for once and realize that other people really do love and support him; like Sally. The entire rest of the time Jack's stuck in his own mind. Sally's in love with Jack but she's actually not supportive of his Christmas and even tries sabotaging it because she knows what he's doing is wrong even if it took an unexplained visionflower for her to get that hunch first. Her line is literally "although I'd like to stand by him" not "I support him even if I really don't want to". And in the end not only is Sally vindicated by being right like Santa says she is, but Jack suddenly realizes what she's done and falls for her right then. YMMV on how good a couple they'd actually make ((they aren't Diane and Mr. PB; eat shoot Lindsay Ellis *annoying cries*)) but that's what's cute about Jack and Sally: Sally does her pining maturely (stalking not included) while Jack instantly falls all over in love with her because he's Jack.

I understand there are different interpretations w people think Jack was always in love with Sally but obviously I digress and have always kind of disagreed with that reading, as did the writers of TNBC. Because, if you did have a version where Jack was always feeling something romantic towards Sally, or WORSE, was in a relationship- you would get Charlie x Vaggie.

If I'm right (seasoned hazbinnies feel free to correct me on this) Charlie and Vaggie were not written to be lovers initially but later retconned into being later into the writing process....which shows. I think promo stuff from back then called the two just "friends" and Vaggie and Charlie don't act very romantic. As I just laid out and as any shipper of Jally could tell you it's not hard to make that kind of dynamic cute and quirky. The problem is it isn't even THERE.

Vaggie is apparently Charlie's girlfriend and I guess just also believes in the hotel but is skeptical of it, though I wouldn't consider that on par w Sally who was straight up gonna poison Jack in one of Caroyln Thompson's earlier scripts. Especially given that she's an angel this could either work for or against her character but Vaggie seems more like an agent then a loving bestie, even. I think I remember one of the spin off comics for Hazbin which had Vaggie just straight up admitting she's doing the hotel plan because it makes Charlie happy and she'll do anything Charlie wants.

To be honest, it reminds me more of Dr. Mrs. the Monarch from Venture Bros going on about how/why she puts up with Monarch's shit when he doesn't listen to her and it's because he has "passion for a villain"...the difference is that in that case you can kind of get where Mrs. the Monarch's coming from in her emotions. With Vaggie, well, guess that's a sin of not having all the details of her feelings laid out yet. I mean, when you ever get Vaggie's feelings. Such little work about your main couple in comparison to Angel or Alastor.

AND THEN CHARLIE? You can really tell she wasn't written w Vaggie as her gf in mind.

Boy howdy I REALLY HOPE for the series that Viv and co listened to some of the crew complaints and gave Charlie a more empathetic and supportive vibe because ho mah gawd and I mean this as someone who ships them- Charlie is a HORRIBLE girlfriend in the pilot.

Again, thematically, Jack has the excuse of being in a manic depressive episode and also not knowing Sally very much at all in TNBC. He sees her as just another one of his Halloween Town friends who's especially talented but doesn't even realize she and the rest of the town cares. He's not listening to her when she comes to warn him because he's self obsessed. He's nice to her but also passive cause that's how he is at that point of the story, even if he's gentlemanly about it. Compare to Charlie who, while always adorable Didneyprincessesque, is dismissive of Vaggie's concerns, anger, fears and reform while she's not only aware of Vaggie's feelings WHILE BEING IN AN APPARENTLY COMMITTED RELATIONSHIP WITH HER is concerning. And that's before you get to Charlie not noticing Vaggie getting tossed around by Alastor right in front of her.

It'd be different if Al does his weird smarmy shit and Charlie is uncomfy but only stiffens up and shows her actual strong side to him when he touches Vaggie- "HEY! Don't you lay a finger on her!" but no, nothing.

I ultimately get what Viv wants and is going for by comparing Charlie and Vaggie to tnbc, but I think in practice in the pilot it fails because it

was never planned out to be a couple

they're supposed to be a couple but Charlie and Vaggie aren't all that romantic

they're supposed to be a couple but Charlie isn't very supportive or even defensive

People give Jack a lot of shit (rightfully, in the video games) and give the movie and Jally shit for being a "bad fit" but I again vouch for them not only on the grounds of tnbc being complete and at home in it's own skin. The rest of the franchise not so much, but the movie and the writers of the character know what kind of person Jack is and have his redemptive quality be that he falls for Sally; I love him and Sally both as characters but also as a couple for that reason. I'd feel totally different if Jack, say, was Sally's bf throughout the film and acted the way Charlie did. I can be critical of TNBC and I think some of Jack's writing is flawed and could be better, but y'know, I will defend it pedantically like I'm doing right now.

With Charlie and Vaggie, I ship them because they're my favorite characters from the pilot but dayum. I'm the kind of hermitshipper who's able to sustain myself off scraps and headcanons and even I'm saying these two need some work. Cuz they do. They need A LOT of work. And better writers.

If Chaggie is ''endgame'' in the final season then I hope "A Happy Day in Hell" is just an outlier scene or it's going to be retconned that they aren't lovers yet because if not- oh Vaggie! Get urself a Hasani Walker comic and fast my gurl you need it.