#spindlehorse criticism

[theoddest1]

Lmaoooo

Edit:

Samantha is a Story Artist, Animator, and Animation BFA who works for Viv on both HH and HB.

2nd Edit: Some of y'all need to chill in the comments with certain things you say. It ain't finna make any point come across decently with how you spread some info. I get being mad at some of the reactions, don't get me wrong, but bring it back down slow plz.

[kawaiitail-chan]

I saw this peak masterpiece in my fyp LMAO!

[uniquepeanutcreatorfire]

Fandom: VIV GETS HATE FOR NO REASON

Reasons: Toxic workplace allegations, not addressed

Appropriating a closed religion that’s been demonized by Hollywood for years (also making a profit off it)

Burning bridges with other artists/friends (one that implied she was abusive)

Going to animal cafes in Japan with abused and neglected animals

Supporting businesses (Starbucks) that are against Palestine then posting on social media

Liking tweets referring to people as sub-human

Liking tweets referring to criticism as hate or defending from valid criticism

Not giving certain physical features to POC/POC-coded characters in their design to indicate they are POC/POC-coded and also using harmful stereotypes

Fandom: SHE GETS HATE FOR NO REASON!!!



[starlight-bread-blog]

I know we aren't supposed to cheer but... TELL HIM!!

[teeth-cable]

OG Thread

Thread is not mine, I’m reposting this here for critical and educational purposes as it’s very important to amplify minorities’ critiques and voices.

Another thing I want to share is Viv blocked OP and this is his take on her Mimzy tweet.

Also even though OP didn't point it out in their thread, Rosie is an antisemitic stereotype too. She falls under the Jewish mother and blood libels stereotypes explained by another Jewish user. (Link to their thread)

Reading over Rosie's leaked character sheet and watching the show, you can see how she is those stereotypes. (TBH I don't think it can get anymore obvious Viv, at least knew she was coding Rosie as Jewish with the line,"Rosie has the strong presense of a confident energy of a Jewish mother.")

[carto0ncritter]

Not sure if anyone's noticed this but...

Why does Blitzø look like a bad guy, while Stolas looks like a 'uwu cute sweet gay boy'

Also why is Stolas placed in the middle, like he's the main character? Last time I checked, that was supposed to be Blitz- oh yeah, this is now the Stolas show. HOW COULD I FORGET (sarcasm)

[tocomplainfriend]

SPREAD THIS

Critical argument that went and ask for the experience of people that worked in the shows. How they don't have an actual running Human resources, it's just one guy friends with Viv (Neylan) who gave damn shitty responses to every question. READ IT PLEASE, Pass it around!

(It's a person outside of fandom bubble writting this stuff too)

Full-blown confirmation of the pay discord messages by Neylan

(also Viv has tried to make people not work in other indie stuff too)

This sounds so republican as fuck too:

Gaming company?

[spooky-donut-ghost-house]

If you ever feel bad about your writing remember this:

You didn't write Hazbin Hotel

[flower-boi16]

Can we talk about the fact that TOH, a kid's show that aired on the Disney channel, has an unironically a better gay/sapphic relationship with Lumity than either of these "adult shows"?

Lumity is an incredibly well-developed ship; Its gradually built up throughout season 1 and season 2A and they don't drag the shit out of it, they are just incredibly cute together. The ship isn't abusive and toxic...

...unlike Stolitz, which is a very toxic ship where the victim is portrayed as the abuser and the abuser is framed as just an UwU soft boy. Another thing about Lumity that makes it a good relationship is the fact that Amity is her own character; she isn't solely defined by Luz, her relationship with Luz is an important part of her character, sure, but she still has a lot of development in the series that makes her a well-developed, three-dimensional character.

Compare that to Chaggie, which while not nearly as bad as Stolitz, still has issues, that being how Vaggie's character entirely revolves around Charlie, she doesn't have any real development outside of that. There is the stuff about her being a fallen angel but we'll have to see what the show does with it to make a full judgment, but the reveal that she is a fallen angel feels too rushed to give her depth.

Vaggie doesn't feel like her own character, she feels like she's completely defined by her relationship with Charlie, and she doesn't have that much of a character outside of that. Amity meanwhile, is her own character beyond her relationship with Luz, even in Season 2 where people say that supposedly Amity became just "Luz's girlfriend", she still had that whole conflict with her parents.

Lumity is infinitely superior to both of these ships guys.

Then again TOH blows HH/HB out of the water in every single aspect so...

[theoddest1]

Notice how Viv will bitch about a 15 year old fan being critical or a 18 or 19 year old critic who made a harmless meme, or be pissy about "My name is Caine, I am your bitch" but will stay DEAD. FUCKING. SILENT about someone in the fandom ending their own life thanks to the shitty people in her fanbase. So, in other words, people being "mean" to her is more worth her time than calling out those who pushed Shay into suicide.

Not surprising tbh. This is the same person who apparently thought karma was awesome when one of the people she had beef with (Dollcreep) was getting mass hate from her fans and was hospitalized for an attempt on their life just to get out of the massive attacks they were facing.

So yeah...what a kind ass person....

Then there's Tracy

Who actually addressed and tried to bring awareness to bullying in her community.

[poisonheiress]

Someone needs to say it: The "Heaven is actually bad" plot line that Hazbin is based around is useless when you spend more then 2 minutes thinking about Vivzie's Hell and her characters.

Besides it being much too early for this idea, the revelation that Heaven or at least the beings running it aren't good people has little to no impact when the people who are being harmed by this are all horrible people. Stay with me here. None of these people are people who were unfairly brought into hell and we are never ever introduced to someone who was either. Why should we care that Heaven is "evil" and blocking redemption when all the sinners in hell we see are the worst of the worst who would have never gotten in even if it was fair.

For the "Heaven is bad" plot line to actually work, you need people who were just one sin away from Heaven, who would've gotten into Heaven if circumstance hadn't forced them down a path that stole it from them. You need characters who aren't comedic villains but land in the middle of morally grey. Those who deserved to be in Heaven but because Heaven refused to consider their circumstances, they were tossed to burn with people much worse than them. Those are the people who should be your main cast cause those are the people who would actually be impacted by Heaven being bad/ Heaven lying.

Angel dust, for all his trauma, was still part of the mafia and likely had killed people before (showing to almost take joy in it). Husk became an overlord and gambled souls, so he had to have had blood on his hands before hell. Alastor is a serial killer, and the list goes on and on. Sure, these characters are (somewhat) interesting, but they don't make for good characters to have when the key plot line is that Heaven is a scam. Even if that fact is true, none of them were ever going to get there in the first place and this is something we also se in every single background sinner shown in Hell too. They were never close to getting there, so why would they or we care that Heaven is bad when all sinners are shown to be horrific people who are at best in the dark grey area of morality.

If you look at it from the "angel's are unfairly killing sinners" route, it still doesn't work. If the angels are killing them, what makes it different then the sinner on sinner violence that hell is full off? Why is them dying by angels this bad thing when they are just as likely if not 10x times more likely to get knifed in the back by other sinners in hell the other 364 days, especially when everyone here apparently is just as horrible as the next person. You cannot condemn the angels for killing demons and then make a joke of out sinners killing each other and never show sinners who doesn't want to kill people. Life either matters or it doesn't and when the main cast doesn't even show a care for life (outside of Charlie's who's entire flaw is her naivety), why should the audience.

On top of that, Vivzie's whole overpopulation aspect and the Heaven plot line would connect better if she actually had people like those I mentioned above, people who stole to survive but got tossed out cause stealing is technically wrong, people who killed another to protect someone else but were still sent to hell because even though they saved that person's life that person wasn't supposed to be saved, people who passively engaged in sins but never really did anything harmful under them. This would add into how Hell is so overpopulated and highlight why its so important that Heaven is evil/ why Charlie's plan isn't just a naive pathetic fever dream.

In the end, Vivzie should have never made Heaven the central plot of this show nor tried to assign this blatant good vs evil to that conflict. Neither her characters nor her writing choices are able to respond to this conflict in a way that will end or even tell the story in a satisfactory manner.

[poggersbathwater]

I don't mean to come back to the hazbin critical space because sometimes being a hater is draining, but I saw the new short and the comments on it. Ppl were like "dang she's really annoying, she kinda sucks :/" for sexually harassing Blitzo (which, I agree, she was kinda annoying. That was the goal for her character).

...But these are the same people who laughed or thought it was cute when Stolas sexually harassed Blitzo. Both Emberlynn (the girl in the new short btw) and Stolas sexually harassed Blitzo (hell they used the same damn nickname for him, the girl calling him Blitzy-Kun and Stolas calling him Blitzy), but only the annoying girl gets the hate?

Idc about Viv poking fun at women who like anime or participate in fandom or whatever- this trope has been done a million times, I think this is just silly "haha creator poke fun at fanbase lol" shit, it happens with every show. But it's just weird how Stolas isn't considered a creep but this girl is, yk? This feels like the flirting vs harassment workplace meme, but instead of a handsome guy and an ugly guy, it's Stolas and this one-off character.

[uniquepeanutcreatorfire]

Case #108 of Viv having to explain the inspirations behind a character design on social media when there are hardly any indication of those features in said design.

A chicken…..really?? Look me in my face and tell me that ANY part of her design reminds you of a chicken.

At this point, either Viv is making shit up or she’s that terrible at designing humanoid characters with animal-like features.

If people can’t figure out the inspirations for your character designs without you having to tell them, you have a problem!

[starlight-bread-blog]

Why Stolas is a Terrible Person/Character

Oh this will be long. In this post I will cover why Stolas is a character that fundamentally fails at everything it tries to accomplish. I probably have to say that you can love Stolas. That's just why I hate him.

Trigger warnings for: Racism, casteism, power dynamics, sexual assault, sa apologism, abuse, and neglectful parenting. A lot, I know, but that's Stolas.

His Actions in S1

Despite the title, there will be two examples from season 2.

Racism/Casteist

Stolas is from the upper caste, a royal. He seem to often fetishize imps, or the fact that he's sleeping with someone who's less than him. I even saw fans pointing this out. He have empathized Blitzø being an imp in a sexual context.

(Notice the use of words: "little", "plaything", to me this is blatant racism and fetishism).

He also showed a certain lack of empathy for his imp butler.

Stolas isn't particularly violent, he doesn't choke people left and right. He's just angry, at Stella, so he decides to.. choke the imp.

Stolas has been dehumanizimg imps. Fetishizing an imp for being an imp, calling him an "impish little plaything", and he has been willing to choke an imp just because he was angry at something unrelated. He's racist and casteist.

Treatment of Blitzø

"Treatment" is putting it lightly. In the first episode, Stolas does something inexcusable that will taint their dynamic for all of season 1. First, he sees Blitzø in a vulnerable position, where he cannot think or negotiate. Thus, stripping him of what little choice he has on what he's about to offer.

What Stolas is saying is, "Fuck me or I'll shut down your business". This deal he makes is just a threat with extra steps. Which, is a real life abuse tactic called Quid Pro Quo:

"Quid pro quo harassment occurs when someone in a position of authority over another directly or indirectly demands sexual favors in exchange for some benefit, or to avoid some detriment in the workplace".

One element I haven't brought up yet, is the political power imbalance. Stolas is royalty, one with a lot of power, influence, credibility, etc. Blitzø has non of that. Other characters have commented on that the fact that Blitzø even has a business is a miracle.

There are so many layers of imbalance and how Blitzø has no choice or agency. A royal is """offering""" the powerless a Quid Pro Quo while he's in a life threatening situation.

And their dynamic looks exactly like you'd imagen. Stolas is consistently sexualizing him against his consent. (As it's been established, Stolas's racism feeds into this). And refuses to do the surface level courtesy, not even calling him his real name (x).

Stolas treats Blitzø as a lesser being, violates his boundries, forces himself on him, and strips him of all autonomy.

Faliure as a Father

Stolas's role as a father is directly tackled in Loo Loo Land and Seeing Stars. At the beginning, both episodes show Stolas being a good father to Octavia, but does this still hold true in the currect day? Well, no.

In Loo Loo Land, Stolas wants to take Octavia to a theme park. Octavia is 17, and Stolas ignores her when she says she doesn't want to go. (In retrospect, Stolas coud be oblivious because he's projecting onto Via his experience meeting Blitzø).

But that's just the start. Stolas then invites Blitzø to the trip and harasses with him all throughout. Essentially, Stolas is forcing his daughter to watch as he harasses "the homewrecker", all the while he's supposed to be with her, on a trip she didn't even want to go to.

After a whole day of this, as expected, Octavia runs away. Stolas chases her. (And of course, he's still thinking of Blitzø on his way to find Via). There's an apology scene that looks deep, but when you dissect it, it's rather empty.

Stolas never actually provided an explanation as to why he just did what he did, nor of the "drama" with Stella. There is nothing here. Octavia only makes up with him because he said he isn't gonna leave her. Which is bare minimum.

After he realizes that his affair hurts his daughter to the point where she feared he's gonna leave her, what does he do? What practical actions does he take to improve? Divorce Stella? Cut off his deal with Blitzø? Explained the situation?

Nothing. And now we see he's willing to stand up on a stage and let people know.

In Seeing Stars, Stolas bashes Via's mother to her. Which, does she know about their situation? Does she not? She isn't shown to hate or.. anything Stella. Is he hiding the situation (which I'll cover), while also trashing her mother? That's impulsive and negligent.

But that's nothing. She later runs away, Stolas is stressed as he should be, but the second they arravie on earth he's all calm and everything's normal.

When his daughter is missing. When he is shown to be stressed, it's for the sake of plot. But he's willing to just chill, watching Blitzø's show.

Stolas is, dare I say it, neglectful. He might care about his daughter, but he's proven that she's not enough of a priority to focus on her when it matters.

Cheating

Yes, I know what ended up being revealed, I'll cover that. In season 1, the relationship is presented to not be perfect before Stolas cheated.

But there were instances that showed that what Stolas did changed their relationship for the worse. (Some additional rebuttals).

It could have been a loveless marrige, they could hae fallen out of love, they could have been arranged. But their relationship was manageable. Love or no love, it's a committed relationship. and Stella didn't deserve to get cheated on.

Who was Stolas?

Stolas's behavior is common among royals. Stella has no problem throwing said butler at Stolas (S1 E2), and the Goetias are shown to be casteist. They're untouchable privileged assholes.

Stolas was born that wealth, never having to suffer the consequences of his actions. Always putting himself first, hurting others. He doesn't mean to, he wants for everyone to be happy, he does care.

However, when it actually matters, he acts on his worst tendecises with no self control. He never had to learn self control. That is, until Ozzie's.

Before Ozzie, Blitzø and Stolas are at obligation. Stolas's actions had tainted them. There was one redeemable moment: He saved Blitzø's life. Stolas did something for him. But this one act of goodness doesn't magically fix anything.

Stolas's family life have been escalating. Stella hated Stolas for cheating and his daughter just had to take it. In Loo Loo Land, he learns the full weight of the damage he caused. And in the next episode we see him, he proceeds to take no steps to improve the situation. In the end of that same episode, we learn that Stella hired an assasin after him. Because he did nothing.

The season 1 finale, Ozzie's, is aware of all of this and absolutly delivers.

The episode starts with seeing Stolas alone, in his big house, miserable. It appears that Stella finally left the house. (Also he later says "Octavia is with her mother this weekend"). He's eating a bowl of cereal, pitying himself, wallowing in his despair. You feel bad for him, he looks so torn down.

And then Blitzø calls. The one he loves, asks him on a serious date. It's hope, it's honest, and it's exactly what he wanted. It's almost as if the universe handed him is fairytale scenario.

Almost. Reality smacks him right in the face on that date. Asmodeus calls him out on losing everything he had. He had a family, a happy daughter, but gave it all up for an affair.

Blitzø calls him out on treating him like a pet, not earning any of that emotional connection he wants or even communicating it, just violating him, they have nothing.

The show held him accountable and called him out. While it's not perfect, Stolas is a morally grey character. Now, a character arc was set up where he learns to treat people better. Stolas is exactly the character I want to see from a show like Helluva Boss. He's a horrible person, but nuanced, who does care.

Season 2

Yeah... all of that is thrown out the window. Because apparently, Stolas is just imperfect. He simply made a lot of mistakes. He misread a lot of situations, really it's all just an accident. He's an oblivious victim. So, let's get into the woobification of Stolas.

Surrounded by Evil

In The Circus we're given Stolas's ✨️backstory✨️. And we find out he had such a terrible life.

Stella is, and always was, an abusive evil bitch. From the day she was born. Pure evil.

So you see, Stolas did nothing wrong. Let me be clear, you are not obligated to stay loyal to your abuser. We can erase "cheater" off the list. But that's the only reason why it's done. So we can erase that off the list, and that we could feel oh-so-sad for him.

Because Stella isn't written to be an abuser. She's a cartoonishly evil. We see a picture of her as a kid where she's the same person. Spongebob villians have more depth than her, you know, the abuser in the adult show.

Helluva Boss reversed an established dynamic where Stella is the victim and Stolas is at fault, except without any of the depth or nuance.

But that's not all. Stolas's dad (Paimon) is also neglectful. By "neglectful" I mean, of course, a Saturday-morning cartoon villain.

He doesn't remember his name. This is such bullshit. I can buy Stolas having a horrible father. It's also not bad to show Stolas's trauma. What is bad is that the subject matter is handled with less seriousness as the fish fight in Spring Broken. And Helluva Boss did write Crimson as a serious abuser, the episode did have comedy, but not Paimon.

The reason why all of this is happening, is so we could feel bad for Stolas. They do zero of the work to earn a good story about abuse, but still go "Do you see how sad he is? Look at how they're treating this poor baby!!"

"Recontextualization"

In said ✨️backstory✨️, we also learn that Stolas and Blitzø are childhood friends. But also not really, they just hung out for one day. Where did this come from? How does that enrich the characters? I would tell you, but I don't know. However, what I'm sure of, is that it's done to make Stolas look less problematic.

DO YOU SEE HOW CUT THIS IS? He isn't just horny for that imp, he is special, it's absoultly pure! Don't worry, totally safe.

Later in the flashback, we see how Blitzø and Stolas reconnected after over 20 years. Apparently... Blitzø was the one who sexually manipulated Stolas, selling him that he wants him.

All Stolas did was just buying into Blitzø's narrative he was imposed on. It's a role he leaned into, because he thought Blitzø liked it. I.. WHAT???

If this horseshit is true, why did he make this weird r*pe deal with Blitzø? If Blitzø was the one who acted like he's interested at first, and he was sexually exploiting him, why did he lash out at Stolas in Ozzie's? Did it just hold no weight for Stolas? It went from "Don't pretend to have something when you've been harassing me this whole time" to "You misunderstood".

The Stolitz backstory makes no sense, it's cheap, and fixes nothing. No matter what the story is trying to sell, in season 1 Stolas knew what's happening enough to try to force it. And maybe Stolas wanted Blitzø because of a connection, he still harassed, dehumanized and violated him.

Note: Stolas realizing "he imagened the relationship" is completely ignored one episode later in Seeing Stars. This is a huge deal, didn't he learn? Just further evidence that he's willing to violate the guy. (x)

Before this backstory, we had a story of a selfish man hurting the person he loves while explointing the broken system and the power that he has over him for his own selfish desires that he's forcing on him. Now, we have the same thing, but with fanfic tropes – and the story refuses to confront that.

Casteism is Brushed Off

Helluva Boss pretends that Stolas isn't racist, because he didn't want Blitzø for being an imp, but for being his fanfic trope childhood friend. Which fails to adress the disgusting fetishism of Blitzø for being an imp, and he also continued to dehumanize his imp butler in Seeing Stars. He's still racist.

Imperfect Father

In The Circus, Stolas devivers this line: "The only reason I have endured your constant insults and cruelty, was for that girl to have a normal life".

Sounds impressive, he stayed all these years just for his daughter. But that's the thing – it sounds impressive. Every time their relationship is the focus, Stolas is being the scum of the earth. What I see here, is a person. A person who despite being willing to stay passive, acts on his his selfish wants, forgetting to look around him. Mind you, this fact is also being revealed one episode after Ozzie's.

But no, one episode later, in Seeing Stars – that was covered as a prime example of everything I just descriped – Loona says this:

Yeah. He's just a good father "trying" his "best" and makes some.. "mistakes". The Circus did present Stolas as this, but Seeing Stars really solidified how his parenting will be handled moving forward. And I think it's comlete and utter dogshit.

Damsel in Distress

The title is a bit misleading. This section is mainly about Stolas's power being toned down. Both magical and in presentation.

In season 1, he was energetic and enthusiastic, while being able to set his foot down and intimidate when needed. He's still all of those things, but in some instances his characterization made my raise an eyebrow.

In Seeing Stars, he's being weirdly gentle with people kidnapping Blitzø and are later beatting him.

In Oops, he's excited to start negotiating with literal kidnappers. I have no idea why he's so nice.

(He did harass Blitzø again in Seeing Stars and bashed Striker, all of which isn't soft, but it's also the two moments where he should have shut up).

Further more, both of these conflict rely on Stolas not using his powers for some reason or another. Why didn't he just do whatever he did in Truth Seekers to track Fizz/Via?

About Via, I'm gonna have to call bullshit on the "My powers are limited on earth" nonsense because, for starters, kid Stolas is shown to remember the contents of his books and now he's been studying them for years. And two,

There is no excuse for Stolas to not use his powers and whenever the show says otherwise it's bullshitting its way out of it.

Even in Western Energy, before Stolas gets captured he was just aimlessly going in and out of his demon form. Why didn't he turn him into stone like he did in Loo Loo Land?

Stolas has been presented as weaker than he is. He's made to look more vulnerable, less "above it all". He was untouchable, and when he wasn't, it had a harder impact and made sense. Now, I almost forgot he's a powerful demon.

And his characterization is at the core of this issue. At times he's just so kind and gentle with people who should get smacked in their heads.

What about Ozzie's

The big clash, the one that called Stolas out on everything, the one that set him on a genuine path to grow, what about it? How is it adressed while the show tries to pretend he's a good person?

No, not the message Stolas is looking at, the ones in the background he just scrolled through.

I'm not breaking this down. I refuse. The only reason I put it here is to show how fast it goes. I'm not touching that.

Who is Stolas

Stolas is a moral scapegoat – "a character that is bad, but the book/movie/show portrays them as good". It's characterized by the story twisting itself to make one character look good.

Stolas didn't start out as one, but became one over one season premire and it just kept escalating from there.

Helluva Boss takes place in Hell. A horrible place filled with horrible people, the root of all evil. Stolas fits right in there. He was already problematic, awful, fed into Helll's broken system. Why trying to cover up his faults? It's Hell, and it was great. But now, we're supposed to pretend he's just flawed.

With the show actively ignoring everything he did, what's left for him? What does he have to learn? How will he grow as a person? How will he improve? What's his character arc? It's nothing. Because everything that happens to him isn't his fault, and at times could just be solved with one conversation.

[yourfavouritemotherlyanti]

Nah doing your DeviantArt original character rp sesh in what is supposed to be a professional business email and telling your customer to "fuck off" whilst waiting for their playbill is crazy lmao/Neg.

[autumnteawithfriends]

To be honest, while I never really talked about the Hazbin playbill situation, there’s two things that make me feel bad for the people who bought the package

Those packages weren’t cheap. In typical Spindlehorse merch fashion, the package was definitely overpriced to me because I’ve been hearing that this package costed around $70-$90 dollars and it was supposed to include keychains, pins of the main characters, the playbill, and trading cards. Why in the ever loving fuck should a package cost that much, and something that makes this worse is that the playbill wasn’t included when people got the package

For context, a user on the Hazbin Hotel subreddit spent $90 dollars on this package and didn’t get the playbill (I cropped the image because they included a receipt that showed their name, even though they blurred it out)

Like, this is just a scam in plain sight

The other part about this was kinda expected, but it’s Vivziepop’s (either her, or Spindlehorse’s) immature email responses to people asking about the playbills.

Like, why in the holy hell would you roleplay as a character from your own show and insult your customers by saying they’re being greedy only to tell them that they should rewatch the show and fuck off. That’s a whole another level of childish and unprofessional.

The worst part is that people haven’t been waiting since January, they’ve been waiting ever since OCTOBER 2023 because that’s when the merch was announced

Anyways this is just my two cents on the situation, fuck Viv and I hope people who bought the package can get a refund