#FFVIIR theory

[onigiri-dorkk]

Attack on Titan AOE vs. Final Fantasy VII Remake/Rebirth Parallels

Alright fam. This is my ultimate multi-fandom post! This will go out to fellow AOT x FFVII fans -- especially those who have been looking into the AOT/ANR theories regarding AOE.

Obviously there will be heavy spoilers for both Attack on Titan as well as for Final Fantasy VII (OG and Remake).

Recently I've dived into the theory and lore to FFVII and a LOT of it lines up with what's been theorized for AOT regarding different medias being different timelines for one entire story:

For AOT, the manga is theorized to be a different timeline than the anime.

For FFVII, the original game (OG) is now officially implied to be a different parallel timeline than the current Remake.

In AOT, Eren and Paradis Island's fate from the Manga ending is death, that Paradis is still destroyed despite everything he does to prevent that. In the Manga, he reaches 80% Rumbling and then dies by Mikasa's hands; a sacrifice he was willing to make in order to allow Mikasa, Armin and friends to be heroes and live long lives (which they do) and for Paradis to survive -- however the cycle of hatred still continues on when Paradis is bombed, negating most of what he acted towards.

Before I get into this next part, let me also mention that the Cabin dream is implied to be a previous or parallel timeline -- in this, we see Eren die; his eyes slowly close, fading to black to his peaceful death as Mikasa says, "See you later, Eren..." which directly reflects the beginning pages of the manga of the moments and words he sees just before he wakes up underneath the tree. In other words, when Eren dies in Cabin timeline, he awakens to what we know to be the Manga timeline. It's a peaceful wakeup, sitting up against the tree as he had been sitting at the Cabin during death. He doesn't cry -- he only wonders why Mikasa's hair was long (because when he saw her last in Cabin timeline, her hair was short). Then the manga story ensues, leading up to his inevitable death by Mikasa beheading him -- a violent, gruesome death in the Manga...

...To which he wakes up in the Anime, in fright and shock, laying down on the ground with his head laying directly where Mikasa had laid his headstone in the Manga post-war, as if he'd just woken from his violent death in manga.

This is very similar to what is actually happening (not just theorizing) with FFVII right now.

In the original (OG) game, Aerith is killed by Sephiroth while trying to save Midgar/the world from Meteor destruction, then her soul is essentially absorbed into the Lifestream. In the end, Cloud defeats Sephiroth (who also goes into Lifestream), but in the process, Midgar is still completely destroyed by the Meteor as it was too late to completely save everything, even if the rest of the world was saved.

There are already some parallels here:

Rumbling = Meteor. The world is saved, but still experienced mass destruction. Lifestream = somewhat like Paths, allowing people to transcend time/space/etc.

However a big thing paralleling AOT theories is that the FFVII OG game ends with Aerith (remember, she was killed), surrounded by Lifestream energy, closing her eyes... Then the Remake game opening with Aerith, surrounded by Lifestream energy, opening her eyes as it leads to the new game unfolding.

Aerith woke up in a new timeline.

And there is plenty of evidence throughout the Part I that shows that she knows what is fated to happen based on the OG game/previous timeline:

She knows details about Cloud even though he didn't share/she acts like she already knows him well.

She gives him a flower because he's a 'special' customer, and says that the flower is a symbol for when lovers reunite.

She knew that the Plate would fall and destroy Sector 7, even though Tifa and Cloud were doubtful, but she couldn't tell them. (Tifa: "Aerith... What are you not telling me?")

She knew Tifa wanted her to save Marlene, even before Tifa even said it

In the special cut scene between Cloud and Aerith, she tells him with sadness that everyone dies eventually. And she advises Cloud to never fall in love with her (because she knows how that tragically ended in the original). She KNOWS she's fated to die.

And these are ALL differences from the OG game -- Aerith didn't have any of these reactions, dialogue, thoughts, sentiments before. She is implied to be operating in Remake with the knowledge of how things ended before: that she would be killed, that Midgar would still be destroyed, that Sephiroth would still be alive.

Except this time, with all that knowledge of OG fate, Aerith is now trying to actively veer things away from the tragic fate and destiny laid out before them. (Side note, Whispers are also game-original and are trying to reel things back to fate/destiny. Also, Sephiroth, being part of Lifestream from OG, is also operating with the knowledge that he failed in the OG. Like Aerith, Sephiroth is trying to change destiny.)

And if that isn't enough yet to convince you that it's a different FFVII timeline... ZACK IS ALIVE. They show him make it out of the battle that killed him before. It is an entirely new journey. (I will cry if/when Zack and Aerith reunite)

Now we circle around right back to AOT.

Like Aerith, Anime Eren is theorized to know how things ended in the Manga: his death, Paradis' destruction, etc. He gained this knowledge when he kissed Historia's hand (in both anime and manga), gaining access to memories of the future... and of the past. But not just memories of the Anime timeline. Founding Titan Eren is interconnected with Paths, the way Aerith is to Lifestream, both of which surpass time itself, as we've seen with Eren/Zeke traveling through his memories. (There's a lot of imagery alluding to Manga art intertwined with Anime, but that's a sub-sub-sub-theory)

There is also a side theory that Aerith transferred memories to Red XIII (as she pressed her hand to his forehead upon meeting) because he was already most attuned to the Lifestream itself, and he becomes her aid almost. Likewise, there is a fun theory regarding Eren using Falco as a messenger/Falco receives memories from Eren (which is why in Anime, Falco recalls memories of 'flying around with swords'... Which couldn't have come from Ymir Freckles. You can only see memories once you HAVE the Titan shifter; Falco at the beginning of S4E1 was still just Falco. Falco has also already been used as a messenger of Eren's letters. Falco is also one of the most neutral characters who shows empathy and understanding of both sides. He is a special character. If AOE happens as theorized, many think Falco will play an important role)

Now there is a certain tragic ending that we think Isayama has been alluding to for forever. I'm not gonna say it here because some of you will get triggered over attachment to certain characters/ships and whatnot. But the core of it is that we think Eren is going to do things very differently to change the fate and destiny -- that maybe, instead of choosing others over his freedom, instead of only committing 80% Rumbling (leaving enough people to lead to the demise of Paradis)... Maybe Eren will even choose his freedom this time via 100% rumbling, etc.

Honestly, who knows! There may be an entirely new ending that's the best of both worlds for every single fan. (...Sarcastic, though, because not everyone can or will be pleased. Even for FFVII, OG purists are frustrated by it veering off.)

I do not believe AOT Anime is going to end the same way the Manga did even if I have reasons for wanting it to stay the same (y'all know me and why I would NOT want it to end different; there are special scenes between my OTP I need to see, especially post-war) but it's because we've seen many consistent things throughout the anime -- through the story, dialogue, recurring imagery, etc. all for a separate detailed post -- that Isayama could have potentially been foreshadowing since 2013 towards a new ending.

"What's the lie? What's the truth?"

The fact that Tetsuya Nomura (maker of FFVII) is already doing this meta-narrative of having one media/game being an entirely different timeline than the original content is SO cool, and affirms that if Isayama is pulling this same stunt, it's not because of fans trying to riot and change an ending, but because that's... well, that's what could've been planned from the start, and because it's a really unique storytelling technique that would elevate a work by making many pieces come together as one, singular, consistent story in a brilliant way.

Obviously there's no IRL link between FFVII and AOT, but again, Nomura doing this makes it less crazy and more probably for another Japanese mastermind storyteller to do this, too. (And I won't even START on Muv Luv/Muv Luv Alternative! But it's the same thing, too!)

I'll stop there for now. Any AOT AOE x FFVII fans out there?! PLEASE tell me I'm not alone LOL

[asteriuszenith]

Considering Aerith's words in the trailer, our thought that the "but will you?" Part of the main question/theme Rebirth is asking about saving the world of it relating to Aerith now made me realize that Cloud also just as much has a stake in this. Aerith made it clear that she wasn't just saving the world, she was also saving Cloud.

So if FFVIIR series is theoretically taking place after Advent Children, did something happen to Cloud for Aerith and even Sephiroth to place that much emphasis on him? Dream Aerith remembers. She knows her fate. As does Sephiroth. But Cloud doesn't even if he's getting echoes of it.

Hell, how did this all happen anyway? Why is the timeline going out of whack?

[somebodys-nightmare]

Those Chosen by the Planet: Are Cloud & Tifa Soulmates?

We know from the OG/Compilation that Cloud & Tifa share a deep emotional and spiritual bond. But after Rebirth, I am curious about the true nature of their connection and how soul-bound they really are - and why.

In order to organize this efficiently, I’ve broken this down into parts to best explain both background information as well as specific events that have led me to my conclusions/thoughts. The outline is as follows:

Part 1: The Lifestream (Background)

Part 2: What’s Happening with Cloud?

Part 3: The Lifestream Scene (Chapter 9)

Part 4: The Reunion Flower & Tifa’s Trial

Part 5: The Ending

Part 6: The Lifestream Scene (OG/Part 3)

Part 7: Those Chosen by The Planet: Soul-bound

Let's get started!

Part 1: The Lifestream (Background)

To set the context, I want to first explain my thoughts on the nature of the Lifestream, which is the primary worldbuilding and lore context of FFVII and in particular, how it is being explored in the FF7R trilogy.

In the FFVII Rebirth Ultimania, scenario writer Mr. Nojima shares that he studied Buddhism’s Yogacara & Jung’s theory of the ‘collective unconscious’. He states these concepts inform the “worldview” of the story and give hints about the mysteries and the ending of the trilogy.

I believe that he is referring specifically to the multiple “worlds” that we see in FF7R, which in turn are manifestations of the Lifestream. Let’s break these down first. I will try to explain these concepts as succinctly and relevantly to FFVII as possible.

Yogacara is a school of Buddhist philosophy that states our experiences of the world are shaped entirely by our mind. What we perceive as the external world is really a projection of our consciousness. Thus, everything we experience is a result of mental activities & states.

There are 8 levels of ‘consciousness’ in the Yogacara philosophy:

1-5: The 5 Senses Consciousness: Sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch. These are the things we “experience” in reality through our body’s physical perceptions.

6: The Mind Consciousness: The mental process that integrates and interprets the above sensory information. This is how our mind translates the Sense consciousness of what we see, hear, feel, etc.

7: The Self Consciousness: The aspect of consciousness that involves the sense of self and ego. This is the level of consciousness that revolves around our identity and how it relates to everything else.

8: The Storehouse Consciousness: The deepest level of consciousness that stores all past experiences and ‘karmic seeds’, influencing current and future experiences. These also shape and store an individual's hopes and dreams.

I believe that the Yogacara philosophy forms the lore’s basis of the ‘individual’ consciousness of a person, or their soul, as it relates to the Lifestream. Every human being has their own individual “Lifestream” which becomes a part of the “collective” Lifestream at death.

In this process, a person’s consciousness diffuses into the collective consciousness of the Lifestream. Considering what is happening to Cloud in the game, it is important to understand how the Yogacara and its levels of consciousness influence this lore.

Additionally, it's important to understand that both Sephiroth & Aerith are able to maintain their individual consciousness & not “diffuse” into the Lifestream. This is why after death they are still both ‘whole’ & able to traverse the Lifestream “worlds”.

Which brings me to…

The Collective Unconscious: In psychology, Jung’s collective unconscious describes the part of the unconscious mind that contains shared memories and archetypes common to all humanity.

These universal symbols & experiences influence our thoughts, feelings, & behaviors, connecting us to the broader human experience. It explains why people from different cultures or time periods can share myths, symbols, & themes in their stories and dreams.

I believe these both set basis for the “collective consciousness” of the Lifestream & its relation to the indivdual, which contains the essence of the planet & the memories, emotions, & knowledge of all who lived on it. In Rebirth, we see two representations of the Lifestream:

1. The Physical Lifestream: below ground, represented by ethereal green liquid, energy wisps, and rocky landscapes of the planet’s core. This is where Tifa falls in Gongaga, where the WEAPONs & Whispers are fighting, and where Sephiroth’s true form is.

It is also where Tifa sees fixed memories represented by holographs. This also seems to be the form of Lifestream reality in which the OG Lifestream scene takes place, again seen by the physical structures and the manner in which Cloud and Tifa fell into it in Mideel.

I believe the manifestations of individual consciousness/soul, or an individual’s lifestream, are seen here. Note that there is a physical battle between “the planet & its enemies” seen here and that Sephiroth is seen fighting perhaps more strenuously & aggressively than anywhere else, where we typically do not see his true form.

2. The Metaphysical Lifestream: This seems to be the “plane” of existence that manifests in infinite branches & paths, represented by rainbow imagery we see throughout the game & manifests the “worlds” present in 'Zack’s Story', each marked by a different breed of Stamp.

I believe that this is the manifestation of the “collective” Lifestream, thus containing memories, emotions, knowledge, AND hopes and dreams of the collective spirits within it.

This is where Zack’s realities manifest, representing, it seems, unfulfilled desires or unfinished business, creating a purgatory of sorts or a confluence of memories and emotions. Sephiroth and Aerith seem to have great power in and over these manifestations in different ways, which I believe is also a source of the conflict involving Zack (a separate conversation).

Now that we understand how the Lifestream seems to be functioning, this brings me to…

Part 2: What’s happening with Cloud?

Cloud’s true self/spirit/psyche is currently shattered within the collective unconscious of the metaphysical Lifestream. This is the definition of mako-poisoning, especially in a severe case like Cloud’s.

We see this explained with Jessie’s dad, as well as with Cloud in Mideel in the OG. When a person comes into prolonged contact with mako, they are at risk for information overload from the knowledge of the collective of the Lifestream.

This can cause a person to lose their sense of self, similar to how a person’s consciousness/soul diffuses into the Lifestream upon death. In the case of a living person who cannot withstand the mako poisoning, however, they become “trapped” or “shattered” in the Lifestream.

At this stage, Cloud is still functioning because his contact with Tifa allows him to “wake up” & build a persona, aided by the Jenova cells reading her memories, by his own desires & delusions of grandeur, and his memories of Zack’s experience.

However, we see his true, broken consciousness throughout the collective unconscious of the metaphysical Lifestream (Zack’s side story).

Tifa’s role, as we know, is to help Cloud restore his sense of self after further mako poisoning following the events of the Northern Crater when his false persona is broken and he falls into the Lifestream.

Which brings me to…

Part 3: The Lifestream Scene (Chapter 9)

There’s a lot to say about Chapter 9 and Gongaga, but Tifa falling into the Lifestream is arguably the most important scene in the game as far as foreshadowing for the final installment of the trilogy.

This scene’s purpose is to solidify Tifa’s heroine role for the third game and to prepare her for the task she will undertake, while giving basis for it - a basis that was famously unexplained in the OG but has now been fleshed out.

Tifa falls into the reactor’s mako pool & is carried directly into the physical Lifestream by the WEAPON in the earth’s core. Here, she sees her fixed memories, represented directly in the rocky terrain of the planet, & surrounded by energy wisps and liquid of the Lifestream.

While locations are fixed, images of memories are represented and play out with green holograms, and voices by green pulsing energy wisps. She also sees the white Whispers of the planet & the black Whispers of Sephiroth/Jenova fighting, & Sephiroth’s corruption of the Lifestream via Jenova, aka “Black” or “Negative” Lifestream, represented by purple energy.

Note that Sephiroth, in his true form, physically attacks Tifa & the WEAPON carrying her here.

I can’t say for sure, but while these are definitely Tifa’s memories, they also seem to be Cloud’s. Before Tifa falls into the Lifestream, Cloud becomes vulnerable to Sephiroth’s mental attack because of the effects of the mako fumes in the reactor. This leads me to believe there is an opening for Cloud’s consciousness in the Lifestream to be connected to Tifa's, and that the Planet took the opportunity of Tifa being pushed into the mako (by Cloud) to connect them.

The memories Tifa sees are her own but are also Cloud’s, and given the context of Gongaga but also Cloud’s identity crisis and the entire internal conflict, this is significant and what we must focus on.

The perspectives of the memories are more Cloud-centric - in 2 out of 3 the camera is behind Cloud (bridge and Tifa’s house) and in the third, the memory focuses on what Tifa is saying to Cloud (water tower).

We also have to consider Tifa’s lack of awareness of events and her memory loss during these memories. The Planet seems to be showing her these scenes from Cloud’s perspective to inform and prepare her prior to her duty in disc 2/part 3.

There are also untouched memory locations you can spot in the scene: the gates of Nibelheim, Stargazer Heights, and Seventh Heaven. The Nibelheim gates we know are important for Cloud’s identity from the OG Lifestream scene.

Stargazer Heights is where Cloud tells Tifa he remembers the promise (curiously, that memory is placed close to the water tower memory.)

And while Cloud and Tifa have obviously a lot of interactions in Seventh Heaven, I think the critical moments are actually those seen in Ever Crisis after Tifa finds Cloud at the train station, as those memories directly influence Cloud’s identity.

The “planet and its enemies” - The WEAPONs, Whispers, and Sephiroth and Jenova - are physically fighting over these memories. Sephiroth tries to kill Tifa here. We see the purple corruption of Lifestream Black occurring in this scene.

We see Tifa on the brink of death and seeing Cloud’s spirit being led away from her and her voice silenced from him by Sephiroth.

It seems to me that following this event, Cloud and Tifa’s consciousness’ are already linked. Tifa also has been given preemptive strength and knowledge to save Cloud when the time comes in part three.

Which brings me to…

Part 4: The Reunion Flower

The Reunion Lily appears on the mailbox of Tifa’s house twice: In Cloud’s flawed flashback of the Nibelheim Incident in Kalm, and during Tifa’s Trial in the Temple of the Ancients.

It does not appear at her house during the fixed memory in the Chapter 9 Lifestream scene. I think this is because the flower wasn’t actually there, but is rather a “totem” or marker of Cloud’s psyche.

Cloud knows from events in Remake what the flower symbolizes. In his flashback, he falsely remembers that he and Tifa reunited with him being a SOLDIER, though we know this isn’t true because he hid himself from her.

The flower reappears during Tifa’s Trial in the ToTA. Her trial takes place during the promise scene & the Nibelheim Incident, the same period as Cloud’s flashback, and when she was hoping to reunite with him - but thinks that she did not (because Cloud hid himself).

In the OG, the appearance of young Cloud is representative of the Real Cloud and his psyche. My belief is that his appearance here is another indication that after Tifa falls into the Lifestream, Cloud and Tifa are mentally and spiritually connected.

Next...

Part 5: The Ending

While the ending may be confusing, several replays make it clear to me that Aerith is dead & that once again, the metaphysical Lifestream (indicated by rainbows) is in play in what we see.

Cloud, who is shattered in the collective unconscious of the metaphysical Lifestream, can see what is “manifested” in these worlds. Similarly, these worlds are influenced not only by memories, and knowledge, but by hopes, dreams, and desires.

Without going off on another tangent, I think Cloud is seeing the manifestation of his desire to save Aerith’s life in the metaphysical Lifestream & that she is temporarily aiding him in this delusion (remember, Aerith can maintain her sense of self within the LS after death).

After the murder, Barret & Tifa run up & we are given BOTH of their perspectives of this death scene. Barret very clearly only sees the real-world scene - Aerith dead, bleeding, etc.

However, when we get Tifa’s perspective, she sees glimpses of what Cloud sees - including his mental static - with interspersed scenes of the real-world death and the rainbow Lifestream where Aerith is not dead or bleeding but is "saved”.

Tifa is quite confused & horrified but seems to accept the actual scene - her death. She is not deluded or blocking things out, she knows what is real.

It’s confusing but it is purposefully clear to me that Tifa is seeing, or can see, what Cloud sees. It is not revealed how much Tifa knows is Cloud’s delusion but it is clear that she is deeply affected, not only by the murder of her friend but by something else.

And Tifa remains disturbingly distraught for the rest of the game. In fact, when she calls Aerith’s name in this scene it’s her last line in the game - she does not speak again. Once again, this is a clue to me that Cloud & Tifa are soul-bonded bc of the chapter 9 events.

In the ending CGI, Cloud tells the group not to look up. Barret does and says he doesn’t see anything. Tifa looks up but doesn’t comment, instead continues to look distressed. Does she also see the rift that Cloud sees? Her behavior is the most jarring of the entire party.

In the penultimate cinematics, we see the WEAPONS circling Tifa & Cloud’s memories again, trying to protect them from “the planet’s enemies”. We can see Tifa’s house, the bridge, and the gates of Nibelheim under them.

These sequences are plot arrows for what we should expect to see in Part 3. It should be lost on no one that the planet is actively fighting to protect Cloud & Tifa’s precious memories, especially after personally guiding Tifa through them.

Which brings me to...

Part 6: The Lifestream Scene (OG/Part 3)

All of the above has led me to conclude that Cloud & Tifa are now spiritually or “soul-bound” in some way, explicitly for the preparation of the Lifestream Scene of Part 3.

Tifa’s role is to help Cloud “restore his sense of self” by entering his individual Lifestream and navigating their fixed memories and the truth about his identity in the physical Lifestream, which occurs when they fall in Mideel.

Rebirth has not only prepared Tifa for this role, but has given us the navigation, insight, and background lore for how it will occur and what the experience might actually entail. This may include elements of both the physical and Metaphysical Lifestream mentioned above.

It has set the stage for an in-depth expansion of the original scene that does not solely focus on what happened when rebuilding Cloud’s psyche, but the why behind his choices and decisions that let them to this moment.

These scenes have also demonstrated why Cloud’s consciousness - his individual Lifestream consciousness that contains his “self-consciousness” and “storehouse consciousness”- is and will remain closed off to anyone other than Tifa.

This is where Cloud’s true desires are concealed and must be revealed to Tifa in the Lifestream scene to facilitate his restoration and their reunion and reconciliation.

Which brings me to…

Part 7: Those Chosen by The Planet- Soulmates?

Why is all of this happening? Cloud is the boy who is destined to save the planet, and Tifa is destined to save him. If the planet has memories of the future as well as the past, then it knows this.

Just like the planet knows that it needs the last Cetra in the Lifestream to help save it, it also knows that it needs Cloud to defeat Sephiroth. And I think the planet has known this for a long time.

Is it far-fetched to wonder if the planet is somewhat responsible for the genesis of Cloud and Tifa’s bond? That, in keeping with the theme of fate, it has influenced the circumstances that have both brought them together and pulled them apart throughout the Compilation?

Is it possible that the planet kept baby Cloud and Tifa alive during the bridge incident? Now, with the context of the Remake Trilogy, I don’t see how two small children survived that fall.

Are Cloud and Tifa chosen by the Planet?

Are they soul mates?

Maybe we’ll find out.

Thanks for reading!

[crisiscutie]

Sephiroth's mental breakdown was nailed perfectly. The raw emotions and him realizing Gast was no better than Hojo... Oh man... Rebirth is gonna be amazing

Game isn't even out and it's already one of my favorite scenes. The music. The buildup to it. THE JENOVA CLOSEUPS. The superb voice acting. (yes, I think Tyler Hoechlin does a fine job)

The only thing that seemed iffy was cutting out some of Sephiroth's monologue about the Cetra and traitor thing.

And you know what, I like Rebirth's slight retcon. In this version, it's much more about Sephiroth, providing a clearer understanding of why he succumbed to darkness. This man and boy (since young Sephiroth is his inner child that's always with him) finally discovered the ugly "truth" about the twisted experiments that made him and the other monsters. He always wondered about his purpose, and this was it. All those years of abuse and exploitation... were done at his expense because he's a monster. The few people that did love and support him? No, no such thing. They're no different from his tormentors. He felt so alone and lost.

The Nibelheim Incident is pretty much his trauma reaching a breaking point. I can see how difficult it was for some to discern for some this nuance in the OG (and even in CC) because they focused more on Sephiroth developing an ego complex from more obviously, outdated information. This retcon is more closer to the truth, the only erroneous thing being that Jenova was an ancient. It's an amazing fix and does a great job in humanizing Sephiroth. I absolutely loved how they used the Jung Shadow. I'm a psychology nerd. You basically watched the death scene of Sephiroth's old identity, especially notice how prominent his shadow is. It's meant to show his inner conflict and then his transformation.

He became exactly what he never wanted to be.

Anyways, another thing to note: what was a bit weird in the original game and the compilation is the strange shift in Sephiroth's beliefs and motivations. At first, he believed himself to be a Cetra and had a divine right to rule over the planet. Then, he transitions to wanting to destroy the planet at the beginning of FF7, seemingly abandoning any claims to Cetra heritage. We know why his motivations changed, but it feels odd not getting more expansion on it after they just suddenly threw that bit of information at us. I believe this retcon should help smooth out that awkward transition. It's a great feeling that one item from my wish/check list might be addressed.

And you know another thing I fucking loved Rebirth's portrayal of the Nibelheim Incident? They didn't back off from Sephiroth's villainy and sadism. I already made a post about it here, but holy fuck. He is out for blood. Everyone and everything in his path had to suffer, just like he did. They don't deserve to continue to live life so happy and normal.

Sephiroth really did not deserve any of the shit he was put through, but that will never not excuse the atrocities he committed in Nibelheim. I was honestly scared to see how the writers would humanize Sephiroth, but so far, they seem to do a great job of it. Hopefully, the full game can keep it up.

The demo still has some issues with Sephiroth and how the gameplay works, though.

[usagifuyusummer]

I've been snooping around since Rebirth came out because, man, ever since FFVIIR, I can't stop thinking about FF7...

After seeing Zack's parents, I can definitely see how his hair is both a mix of his parents styles. The front part from his mom and the spiky parts from his dad.

We do know Zack's light blue green mako eye color isn't natural, so from what we can see from his parents, we can conclude that Zack had a more brown-ish green-ish grey-ish lighter eye color before becoming a SOLDIER?

(Does anyone else have a more accurate desription on what they think Zack's original eye color might be like?)

I wonder how Zack looks like with the eye color we can see from his parents here. Admittedly, I do think that the scene is quite dark for me to truly observe his parents models design, since it is really different from the OG design.

I wish there was someone out there who could rip those models out for people as curious as me to observe. As they did bring up some info on Gongaga that I thought was really intriguing, like why tell us that? Why bring up that the Cetra descendants settled in Gongaga and lived in seclusion??? Why not just give us a full mock history book in the game that tells us the places where the Cetra have migrated or were prominent in? I have even more questions in my head than answers right now... Its brainrotting bad lmao.

Hm, I hope Part 3 clears up the questions I have on Zack and some FF7 stuff...

And how in the hell the Planet as a character is going to be portrayed??? Will Zack or the whole cast meet Minerva again to beat her ass up the second time??? Is Genesis even possible at this point, since there's only one part left to explain this whole thing...

I really hope Zack gets a DLC or specific story parts if they didn't have time to fully expand on some Crisis Core loose ends, Jenova and Dirge of Cerberus stuff... Maybe they're planning to do that after the main games end??? I don't know, there's just too many uncertainties right now. And I'm just rambling out of my mind lmao.

Side note, I didn't know what to describe Zack's parents eye colors, so if what I wrote in the poll is not accurate, sorry for that. Unless either someone tells me, or I read/watch an analysis of this somewhere, then I'll change it. This is the limit of my knowledge on this so far. Discussions are open for anyone of course, if there are any who think about this as much as I do lol.

I don't know if polls can be reopened, since I don't really want to have a time limit on this one. I'm just curious on what others think of this. If my post ever gets far of course... That's why I didn't want the time limit. I'll see what happens then. Thanks for reading my ramblings this far.

[ffvii-series-incorrect-quotes]

[voicefromthecorner]

Alright FFVII fans (and other willing volunteers), enough dancing around it! With a month to go until Rebirth comes out, it's time to discuss the title of the third game in this trilogy!

We already have Remake and Rebirth of course, plus the Crisis Core Reunion prequel and the Retrograde DLC (or was it Remission? (EDIT: it's Intergrade and Intermission. I'm an idiot, of course)), so we all see the pattern, don't we? Thus, I shall wager that the final game in this saga shall be one of THESE WORDS:

I'm not exactly a prankster, so while I know I'm putting my life in the hands of the internet here, I am willing to accept suggestions on some kind of forfeit if the third game doesn't have one of these titles. Purely for fun, but why not? I figure my odds are pretty goo-OH, RECONFIGURE, DARN IT!

So yeah, place your bets, cast your votes and throw in your ideas! What do you think will be the name of the final game of the FFVII remake trilogy?

[silver-wield]

You think the reason he can go snow boarding is because he hasn't come to turn that he hast stopped hallucinating a dead person? Nothing shippy obviously. It's a mechanism the brain does to stop someone from spiraling down. Like when SA victims block their trauma to the point like it never happened at all. Because if they do everything will resurface. Because if it resurfaced for cloud, then one of the stars of trilogy Zack, will haunt him again. He's done another failure, someone died because of him being a weakling. He can't be a hero, he's also not a soldier, and therefore cannot be important to Tifa. He can't protect Tifa.. 😭 and therefore not deserve her 😭.

That's likely the angle they're gonna take with it. I'm expecting some fucked up shit up until his break down at the crater.

[freelanceexorcist]

FFVIIR theory time

Just one or two or five this time, but this one has been on my mind a bit lately, especially with the new Crisis Core footage. This will probably still be long as hell, though, so consider yourselves warned.

As always:

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Seriously, kids, you know the drill

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OK, you've officially given up your right to bitch about any spoilers in this post.

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To start, some of these theories will be pretty canon-divergent. The key word here is theories. If your eye is twitching right now, think of this as an AU fic except it's just the opinion of someone who can't write fiction for shit. And like it or not, big parts of the canon story HAVE changed and these theories might even fit into canon in some way. And yes, I know the dev team has said that all of the major story beats will remain the same, but they said a lot of things back then, yet exercised their right to change their minds, which I think gives me a little wiggle room.

Anyway.

I've had the origin of Ore!Sephiroth on my mind lately, and I've tenuously concluded that he is the only real version of Sephiroth in the game. I even have my doubts about his real body chilling out in the Northern Crater and rebuilding in this iteration of the story.

So who's the person creating illusions in Cloud's mind and warging into the black-cloaked zombie men? I think it's Jenova herself trying to utterly break Cloud.

"But Jenova is just a mindless, instinct-driven animal that Sephiroth uses as a meat suit throughout the game," you say.

Yes, that's basically what she was in the OG. So much so that a man whose mind was utterly broken could wrest control away and impose his will on her. But subsequent materials give her more and more agency and suggest that her influence on Sephiroth is stronger than originally thought. It follows that the Remake series, with all of it's changes, would make her sentient and malicious.

Having said this, if you have the ability to assume other forms based on someone's memories and you want to inflict maximum psychological damage on your prey, you don't appear as yourself. The only memory they have of you is your severed head. No, you appear as the man responsible for the worst day of their life, and you taunt the shit out of them about that. You throw their mother's dying words at them. You follow them around telling them how weak and worthless they are because you know that somewhere deep down, they believe that about themselves. You constantly remind them that anyone who looks to them for protection will end up dead and you show them glimpses of the future to prove it.

I don't get the sense that it's Sephiroth's thing-either in the Compilation or spin-offs-to do that. This is why it was kind of jarring to me to see Sephiroth behaving that way in the Remake. It seemed out of character. Sephiroth's usual attitude toward Cloud is one of indifference and control at worst and, at best, seeing him as a somewhat worthy opponent. Even in Advent Children, when he was basically a rage-fueled golem made of Jenova cells and spite whose white hot hatred of Cloud fueled his very existence he wasn't that verbally abusive toward him. That was, to me, a big clue that something was off.

So my lowly opinion is that OG Sephiroth's motives will be transferred to Jenova in future installments while she continues to look like him and we won't find out this is what's going on until the big reveal. That will be the mystery of Sephiroth this time around.

Jenova as the new Big Bad is even scarier than Sephiroth when you think about it, because her genetic material is the source of his superhuman strength. As strong as he is, that would make her even stronger. Imagine being at the mercy of a villain that is mentally breaking you down piece by piece and can then instantly squash you like a grape once she's gotten what she wants from you.

So from here on out, I'm assuming that each appearance of Sephiroth other than Edge of Creation or similar instances is actually Jenova assuming his form.

Then there's Ore!Sephiroth. During the boss fight at the end, it's heavily implied that he is at least partially controlled by The Whispers. That also implies that the final battle wasn't entirely his choice. By being defeated in that battle, he's able to break free from our friendly neighborhood Dementor wannabes. I also theorize that he wanted to see how strong the party had become.

Fast forward to the Edge of Creation sequence, and you know that this person is very different from the person we've encountered throughout the game. Jenova induces hallucinations, but Sephiroth helps snap Cloud out of them. In the Japanese version, he uses a first-person pronoun ("ore," hence the nickname) that is personal, casual and used amongst peers, while all others use "watashi," which is impersonal and very formal. This was important enough for the folks who put together the Ultimania for the Remake to point out about him.

What I'm getting at is that all sensors indicate that this guy is actually Sephiroth, and that he has managed to shake off Jenova's influence and regained full control over his own mind (something that-again, in theory-The Whispers were trying to prevent in order to keep events chugging along as they were meant to).

Now I've seen some really good theories in my travels that say this is either pre-Nibelheim Sephiroth or a version from the future, either of whom could have traveled through time. While I love the idea of the former, I tend to favor the latter. The reason for that is for drama's sake.

Pre-Nibelheim Sephiroth gaining knowledge of future events and enlisting Cloud's help to stop them is a good storyline, but not as powerful as the other scenario. In that one, Future Sephiroth has shaken off Jenova and his personality has been able to re-emerge, but now he's wracked with guilt and shame over the things he's done and knows exactly what will happen if Jenova wins. Sure, as of the end of Advent Children she had been beaten back once again, but as long as she persists in the Lifestream, she can try again and again.

Who is to say that Future Sephiroth doesn't come from a time when she finally succeeded? The landscape at the Edge of Creation looks a lot like a barren planet after all. This is the culmination of everything he helped her do for so many years, and he sees the chance to put an end to it. But he can't do it alone.

Also, personality-wise, the latter would be more entertaining. Pre-Nibelheim was dutiful, determined and a bundle of personal and emotional issues. Future Sephiroth would be all of those things and also a bit of a giant asshole, too. Any good he does won't erase or excuse the awful things he did in the past, he will have to come to terms with that, and one doesn't just find out they were born as the result of horrific human experimentation and come out the other side of that with a winning personality. Kinda like Negan after his heel-face turn on The Walking Dead.

Finally, this being pre-Nibelheim Sephiroth doesn't make sense when you figure that if he's here, that means the destruction of Nibelheim likely didn't happen, or at least didn't happen in the way we know. This would completely change the story from the ground up, and big changes aside, the major story beats seem to be chugging along as usual. There's always the issue of alternate timelines that the story wants to play with, but it'll take a lot more theorizing power than I have to figure out how pre-Nibelheim Sephiroth would figure into that.

That's about all I've got right now, so I'll wrap this up. If you're still reading, thank you for indulging me.

Until next time!

[crescent-lockhart97]

UPDATE: So it has been confirmed by Nomura himself that the scene above with the dude does, indeed, take place during Crisis Core!!! 😱😱

So this is indeed CC Sephy we are seeing. But the question remains: why does he have the same hairstyle as Remake Sephy when, in Crisis Core Reunion itself (which dropped recently in 2022, by the way), they portrayed him with shorter fringes? In my opinion, his fringes growing in the remake is an indicator of the passage of time from Crisis Core to the FF7 timeline. I really find it hard to believe Square Enix could make such a small mistake like this, so it must be deliberate or for a reason.

there's one little detail i just noticed in the ever crisis trailer 😳😳

so we know in crisis core, sephiroth's fringes were short and looked like this, right?

but in the trailer, the part where he's calling genesis, his fringes look longer:

and near the end of the trailer:

he's basically sporting the same hairstyle as his remake self. this also can't be his remake self since he's lacking that belt we see him wear in the remake.

is this a mistake? is this deliberate????? COULD THIS MEAN SOMETHING??? or am i just clowning???? 😩😩😩😩🤡🤡🤡🤡 SQUARE ENIX I NEED ANSWERS NOW!!!!

[browniefox]

Anyway one of my theories/Headcanons for ffviir is that there’s not that many SOLDIERS left so they kind of let them do whatever they want bc they’ll probably degrade soon anyway, and trying to keep those guys under control is rough, which is why Roche just kinda does whatever seemingly.

[nebuvoid]

i had this terrible thought during my replay btw. you know how FFVIIR Cloud wears this scummy looking bandage under his glove?

Tifa you really couldnt convince him to change that grody thing?

anyway since apparently R is gonna have CC and AC and probably also DoC canon (god save us all), wouldnt it be hilarious if they bring geostigma into the story early and thats why Cloud is wearing that? im not saying i want that or even that im coming up with some big brain theory. i just think it would be funny in a NO GOD WHY kinda way you know

[crisiscutie]

It's almost twistedly heartwarming that Sephiroth is using a puppet version of his brother/father figure to spark conflict between Shinra and Wutai. I can't help but wonder if he is pulling the strings for Matt and Lucia too. They were confirmed alive and working with AVALANCHE. They seemed to have some influence within it, at least, leading their own teams.

It would definitely make sense. One puppet on Wutai's side, two on AVALANCHE? Is Sephiroth taking inspiration from Xehanort, I wonder? Though, it's entirely possible he's simply only using Glenn, and that Matt and Lucia turned against him or went on their own ways at some point.

I'm curious to see how First SOLDIER ties all of this in. I'm not expecting the game to last more than a year after Rebirth's release through. So surely, we will get more story updates soon after the quietness from last year.

[oveliagirlhaditright]

Reasons I think a Final Fantasy VIII Remake could've could be fun:

Addressing the elephant in the room first: yes, they would have to rework the Junction system (since the Junction system is canon to the story). But I don't think there's anything saying that they wouldn't be able to do that all these years later (and that maybe Square has even having thought about it some during said long years). I for sure think they'd be able to find a way to make it better (and less broken for those who get it, and less complicated for those who don't) and something new for this generation, ala FFVIIR's battle system.

Rewrites to the story: this is a thing that would probably have to be a thing that would happen, too, as the story of FFVIII is admittedly not perfect: Most of all to make characters other than Squall and Rinoa more important to the overall story, I think. But seeing just how Square Enix was able to handle character writing in the FFVIIR parts-- and add changes to the story that didn't hurt things (we're not talking about the Whispers or timeline stuff here), but rather enhanced it: like explaining that the Gi created the black materia--I have faith in them.

Now for some things that I, personally, would love to see, that I think could help FFVIII in the modern era, and perhaps the story:

My friend @bluerosesburnblue in defending Rinoa Heartily one time, once described her as a social justice warrior--with all the best intentions--who doesn't exactly know what she's getting into, and gets in over her head. And she's exactly right. If FFVIII were to ever be remade, I'd love to see that sort of direction taken with Rinoa's character, perhaps.

Another elephant in the room, perhaps (but one that I think would be fun/funny. And worth the price of admission... at least for me. I might just be weird). I feel like there would have to be a joke about selfies and Selphie's name. But I don't want them to modernize FFVIII with smart phones like they did FFVII. FFVIII takes place in an era akin to the Cold War, and that's where it should stay. But I've seen many a vintage post labeled something like "a selfie made before selfies were created!" Where a person, back in the day, seemingly did take a kind of selfie with cameras of old. And I think we could do that with FFVIII: the people of that world learn how to take selfies with their cameras, and they become a big hit. And Selphie says something like, "I was 'Selphie' before these 'selfies' ever existed. And I'm the best one that exists, don'chu know?" IDK.

Anyway, those are some of my thoughts for a Final Fantasy VIII remake, if one were to ever exist.

Feel free to add onto this if you have more:)

Edit: And this one y'all will either love or hate. But I believe it was Kitase who said that if they remade Final Fantasy VIII, they might play with the "Squall is Dead" theory. They wouldn't make it true or anything like that, but probably put some red herrings about it there and pay homage to it. I personally like this idea, think it's fun, and would like to see it if we ever did get said Remake. But I also completely understand why others would hate the idea.

[bluerosesburnblue]

1. I don't know if you're keeping up with FFVII Rebirth stuff, since I know you haven't played FFVII Remake (though I know you at least kept up with the general idea of what happened with FFVII Remake). But have you noticed how divided some of the fandom is with what's going on with it? Like, how some people think there are multiple timelines going on (which I definitely think is the case. And I think SE just confirmed that). Whereas some think there are only one.

2. And not even just with the timeline thing (though that's certainly part of it), people are just so adamant that everything they think about how FFVII Rebirth is going to go is absolutely right. And I'm just... worried that people are going to be wrong in some areas. And are building it up in their heads too much, and are going to be disappointed in the end. I feel like I learned my lesson some with Game of Thrones and KHIII, but this recent fandom trend (not just with FFVII oc) concerns me. 3. And I guess I'm wondering if you've also noticed that kind of thing in other fandoms, or feel the same way. I'm sure we could name other fandoms that are doing that (KH very much still is). And I also feel like FNAF definitely does that: like in "I've solved the story of FNAF (or this part of the story of it), and everyone else is wrong." And it feels like, at least in some ways, people are in danger of making their own stories of the stories they say they love, and not loving the real thing. 4. I'm hoping that the FFVII Rebirth thing will be SLIGHTLY better, now that SE has confirmed that it's multiple timelines. But a part of me is still kind of biting my lip, because it still feels like at least parts of the fandom are like, "FFVII Rebirth is going to open like X, and then do this thing, and then this is going to happen, and end like this." And I'm kind of like... why? ...Not that I want to put bad thoughts about FFVIIR out there now, when there's so many reasons to be hyped atm.

You know, funny enough, I was actually talking to a friend of mine yesterday about this exact same thing happening in the Pokemon fandom right now with regards to the ending of Pokemon Scarlet/Violet and how the fandom is completely split on what a certain device in the finale (not gonna spoil things since you did say you might be interested in the game) does. One side takes what the game says it is at face value, the other has a conspiracy theory that "fixes" certain plot holes that they're adamant is correct. And both arguments, to me, are kind of pointless since we already know that the upcoming second DLC this winter is going to cover it? They weren't even subtle about the fact that we're going to be getting more on it, with the DLC pack being called "The Hidden Treasure of Area Zero" (Area Zero being the location of the game's finale)

And you're right, it is a worrying trend across a lot of fandoms. There's this... I don't know, obsession, with the idea of being "the one who called it" amongst certain people. As someone who's been known to engage in theories myself, I don't think there's anything wrong with theorizing, necessarily, or with defending the merits of your arguments pre-release, but you also have to be open to being wrong and willing to look at your stuff before and after and realize that "being wrong" isn't always some sort of failing on your part (though some people are just wrong because their comprehension of established facts were wrong and that usually is their fault, that's only an issue if you stubbornly refuse to allow yourself to be wrong when presented with corrected information)

Like, you might remember some of my KHUx theorycrafting and the fact that I was half-right, half-wrong on some things. Like, I called the fact that Ephemer and Brain were going to split up with one going outside of the Datascape to try to save the others and one staying behind, and that the one who stayed behind would also get out of the Datascape after the others were gone. I was wrong about which was which. Looking back, I can look at my own reasoning and see where it was sound, and where I was just limited by the available information (IIRC I said all of this before Brain handed Master's Defender and the Book of Prophecies over to Ephemer, which would have certainly changed my reasoning). Not having all of the pieces because they hadn't been revealed yet isn't a failing on my part. A failing on my part would be seeing those pieces and how they contradict what I've come up with, and refusing to adjust my stance because I won't allow myself to be wrong

Being wrong isn't some horrible, life-ruining thing that a lot of people in fandoms make it out to be. More people should be open to being wrong, actually. Takes the fun out of things if you always know what's going to happen, and to me it also kind of belittles authors by assuming that you know their own work better than they do (which, again, sometimes warranted because some modern authors shun "predictability" and make nonsensical plots just to surprise *COUGH* GAME OF THRONES *COUGH*, but frequently not)

Actually, another example. I've mentioned that I'm a fan of the comic One Last God: Kubera. It's a really wonderful, intricately crafted narrative and part of that is due to the fact that the whole thing was written as a fully complete novel before the author decided to convert it to a comic. It isn't being written as it goes, but has been fully planned out from the very start of the comic. Now, up until one of the most recent updates, there were two big theories in the fandom that most people... just kind of assumed were probably going to be true. Without giving too much away, one of the theories was that a certain character who would frequently seem to have their motivations and what they know shift between scenes, was time-traveling (and we were sometimes seeing their present self, and sometimes their self from another time). Another theory was that two of the highest-level gods in the series (Primeval Gods) were actually split personalities of the same person. Now, the former theory had some merit to me, the second made no goddamned sense since we had seen the two interact with each other, they've always been depicted as separate, and there's at least one instance where one is in the room and gives the exact location of the other (which even people who believed the theory took as fact even though it being fact would contradict the theory?), but the people who believed that one were diehard about it. Couldn't go into a discussion about either character without it being brought up

Well, lo and behold, one of the latest updates from this past month revealed that, actually, there's a way for someone to impersonate a god and that's what's been happening, with this directly being the real answer for the first theory and having a strong implication to be the real answer behind the second theory. I'm loath to even call it a twist, since the mechanic behind it is just... something that we knew about from the very start of the series and just didn't realize the implications of until it was said outright. I sure as hell didn't think about it, but when I saw it my first thought was "oh, DUH." But I saw people genuinely upset about this reveal because it contradicted the theory, calling it "disappointing" because "it feels like the author thought about it at the last minute," and "the time travel theory made way more sense." When, no, it doesn't. The new update is literally just taking something we were told at the very start to its logical conclusion. And yet people were getting upset because they had completely sold themselves on the theory being the true answer and their belief in it being "right" to the point where they were blaming the author rather than their own guesswork. It's something I find infuriating

All this being a very long-winded way of saying that from my observation, there's an ever-growing intersection between fans who are entitled and fans who refuse to allow themselves to be wrong that's leading to an unfortunate trend of people desperately coming up with theories, then refusing to admit when they're wrong and counting their theories as "better" than the source material. And this, unfortunately, just makes fandoms a much more hostile place between people who actually do like the source material and are open to new experiences and these fans

And I do want to make it clear that there's a distinction between defending your theory and reasoning when you have confidence that you're correct, and outright refusing to accept contradictory information because you can't handle the idea of having a flaw. I would know, because I got accused of doing the latter constantly at my last job when I was doing the former. The difference is in being able to verify the evidence you're using to support your logic. Like, for fuck's sake, I'm not "being defensive" or "trying to get out of things" when I hand you the stats and say something doesn't look viable. Same stuff can apply to fan theories

Also, as if this wasn't long enough already, I just gotta add:

And it feels like, at least in some ways, people are in danger of making their own stories of the stories they say they love, and not loving the real thing.

I hate to say it, that's most of fandom culture these days and I hate it. Go into any given character tag on Tumblr and you'll see a million headcanons that directly contradict what's said in the source material at best and completely undermine the character's entire storyline at worst. You'd start to suspect that the people making these have no sense of reading comprehension and are only here for the aesthetics, but then scroll a bit and you'll see dozens of "redesigns" that "fix" the character by completely ignoring a ton of the cultural influences, small personality-defining hints in the look, or in-universe justifications for things. Want to find a fic of a certain character because you like their personality? How about a dozen where they're so wildly out of character that the only possible explanation is that the author just decided to write out an OC and slapped the character's name on because that's the kind of look they imagined their OC having, because there's no way they could've gotten that from the source material

There's a reason I started a Fandom Critical tag on here for this kind of stuff. It's so pervasive nowadays. Like, it kills any desire I once had to publish my own stuff because, well, fuck, no one's gonna care about what I actually have to say about my works, they'll just appropriate whatever little bits and pieces suit them

And I just genuinely don't get it. I don't get how we got to this point where people will go around praising a creator's works with one breath while showing no sign of understanding or even liking that work with the "fan" content they produce. And this is a separate, but related, issue to the theory stuff above because, like I said, it's possible to just guess wrong with theories and it's fine so long as you don't refuse to accept that you were wrong or get militant about it, but a lot of non-theory fanworks? Those just go beyond into sometimes ignorant, sometimes spiteful territory. You don't even want to see what my blacklist on here looks like just to try to get a handle on some of that stuff because at some point the lack of respect for the original works and their creators just really eats away at me

[ffvii-series-incorrect-quotes]