#FFVIIR theory

[somebodys-nightmare]

Those Chosen by the Planet: Are Cloud & Tifa Soulmates?

We know from the OG/Compilation that Cloud & Tifa share a deep emotional and spiritual bond. But after Rebirth, I am curious about the true nature of their connection and how soul-bound they really are - and why.

In order to organize this efficiently, I’ve broken this down into parts to best explain both background information as well as specific events that have led me to my conclusions/thoughts. The outline is as follows:

Part 1: The Lifestream (Background)

Part 2: What’s Happening with Cloud?

Part 3: The Lifestream Scene (Chapter 9)

Part 4: The Reunion Flower & Tifa’s Trial

Part 5: The Ending

Part 6: The Lifestream Scene (OG/Part 3)

Part 7: Those Chosen by The Planet: Soul-bound

Let's get started!

Part 1: The Lifestream (Background)

To set the context, I want to first explain my thoughts on the nature of the Lifestream, which is the primary worldbuilding and lore context of FFVII and in particular, how it is being explored in the FF7R trilogy.

In the FFVII Rebirth Ultimania, scenario writer Mr. Nojima shares that he studied Buddhism’s Yogacara & Jung’s theory of the ‘collective unconscious’. He states these concepts inform the “worldview” of the story and give hints about the mysteries and the ending of the trilogy.

I believe that he is referring specifically to the multiple “worlds” that we see in FF7R, which in turn are manifestations of the Lifestream. Let’s break these down first. I will try to explain these concepts as succinctly and relevantly to FFVII as possible.

Yogacara is a school of Buddhist philosophy that states our experiences of the world are shaped entirely by our mind. What we perceive as the external world is really a projection of our consciousness. Thus, everything we experience is a result of mental activities & states.

There are 8 levels of ‘consciousness’ in the Yogacara philosophy:

1-5: The 5 Senses Consciousness: Sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch. These are the things we “experience” in reality through our body’s physical perceptions.

6: The Mind Consciousness: The mental process that integrates and interprets the above sensory information. This is how our mind translates the Sense consciousness of what we see, hear, feel, etc.

7: The Self Consciousness: The aspect of consciousness that involves the sense of self and ego. This is the level of consciousness that revolves around our identity and how it relates to everything else.

8: The Storehouse Consciousness: The deepest level of consciousness that stores all past experiences and ‘karmic seeds’, influencing current and future experiences. These also shape and store an individual's hopes and dreams.

I believe that the Yogacara philosophy forms the lore’s basis of the ‘individual’ consciousness of a person, or their soul, as it relates to the Lifestream. Every human being has their own individual “Lifestream” which becomes a part of the “collective” Lifestream at death.

In this process, a person’s consciousness diffuses into the collective consciousness of the Lifestream. Considering what is happening to Cloud in the game, it is important to understand how the Yogacara and its levels of consciousness influence this lore.

Additionally, it's important to understand that both Sephiroth & Aerith are able to maintain their individual consciousness & not “diffuse” into the Lifestream. This is why after death they are still both ‘whole’ & able to traverse the Lifestream “worlds”.

Which brings me to…

The Collective Unconscious: In psychology, Jung’s collective unconscious describes the part of the unconscious mind that contains shared memories and archetypes common to all humanity.

These universal symbols & experiences influence our thoughts, feelings, & behaviors, connecting us to the broader human experience. It explains why people from different cultures or time periods can share myths, symbols, & themes in their stories and dreams.

I believe these both set basis for the “collective consciousness” of the Lifestream & its relation to the indivdual, which contains the essence of the planet & the memories, emotions, & knowledge of all who lived on it. In Rebirth, we see two representations of the Lifestream:

1. The Physical Lifestream: below ground, represented by ethereal green liquid, energy wisps, and rocky landscapes of the planet’s core. This is where Tifa falls in Gongaga, where the WEAPONs & Whispers are fighting, and where Sephiroth’s true form is.

It is also where Tifa sees fixed memories represented by holographs. This also seems to be the form of Lifestream reality in which the OG Lifestream scene takes place, again seen by the physical structures and the manner in which Cloud and Tifa fell into it in Mideel.

I believe the manifestations of individual consciousness/soul, or an individual’s lifestream, are seen here. Note that there is a physical battle between “the planet & its enemies” seen here and that Sephiroth is seen fighting perhaps more strenuously & aggressively than anywhere else, where we typically do not see his true form.

2. The Metaphysical Lifestream: This seems to be the “plane” of existence that manifests in infinite branches & paths, represented by rainbow imagery we see throughout the game & manifests the “worlds” present in 'Zack’s Story', each marked by a different breed of Stamp.

I believe that this is the manifestation of the “collective” Lifestream, thus containing memories, emotions, knowledge, AND hopes and dreams of the collective spirits within it.

This is where Zack’s realities manifest, representing, it seems, unfulfilled desires or unfinished business, creating a purgatory of sorts or a confluence of memories and emotions. Sephiroth and Aerith seem to have great power in and over these manifestations in different ways, which I believe is also a source of the conflict involving Zack (a separate conversation).

Now that we understand how the Lifestream seems to be functioning, this brings me to…

Part 2: What’s happening with Cloud?

Cloud’s true self/spirit/psyche is currently shattered within the collective unconscious of the metaphysical Lifestream. This is the definition of mako-poisoning, especially in a severe case like Cloud’s.

We see this explained with Jessie’s dad, as well as with Cloud in Mideel in the OG. When a person comes into prolonged contact with mako, they are at risk for information overload from the knowledge of the collective of the Lifestream.

This can cause a person to lose their sense of self, similar to how a person’s consciousness/soul diffuses into the Lifestream upon death. In the case of a living person who cannot withstand the mako poisoning, however, they become “trapped” or “shattered” in the Lifestream.

At this stage, Cloud is still functioning because his contact with Tifa allows him to “wake up” & build a persona, aided by the Jenova cells reading her memories, by his own desires & delusions of grandeur, and his memories of Zack’s experience.

However, we see his true, broken consciousness throughout the collective unconscious of the metaphysical Lifestream (Zack’s side story).

Tifa’s role, as we know, is to help Cloud restore his sense of self after further mako poisoning following the events of the Northern Crater when his false persona is broken and he falls into the Lifestream.

Which brings me to…

Part 3: The Lifestream Scene (Chapter 9)

There’s a lot to say about Chapter 9 and Gongaga, but Tifa falling into the Lifestream is arguably the most important scene in the game as far as foreshadowing for the final installment of the trilogy.

This scene’s purpose is to solidify Tifa’s heroine role for the third game and to prepare her for the task she will undertake, while giving basis for it - a basis that was famously unexplained in the OG but has now been fleshed out.

Tifa falls into the reactor’s mako pool & is carried directly into the physical Lifestream by the WEAPON in the earth’s core. Here, she sees her fixed memories, represented directly in the rocky terrain of the planet, & surrounded by energy wisps and liquid of the Lifestream.

While locations are fixed, images of memories are represented and play out with green holograms, and voices by green pulsing energy wisps. She also sees the white Whispers of the planet & the black Whispers of Sephiroth/Jenova fighting, & Sephiroth’s corruption of the Lifestream via Jenova, aka “Black” or “Negative” Lifestream, represented by purple energy.

Note that Sephiroth, in his true form, physically attacks Tifa & the WEAPON carrying her here.

I can’t say for sure, but while these are definitely Tifa’s memories, they also seem to be Cloud’s. Before Tifa falls into the Lifestream, Cloud becomes vulnerable to Sephiroth’s mental attack because of the effects of the mako fumes in the reactor. This leads me to believe there is an opening for Cloud’s consciousness in the Lifestream to be connected to Tifa's, and that the Planet took the opportunity of Tifa being pushed into the mako (by Cloud) to connect them.

The memories Tifa sees are her own but are also Cloud’s, and given the context of Gongaga but also Cloud’s identity crisis and the entire internal conflict, this is significant and what we must focus on.

The perspectives of the memories are more Cloud-centric - in 2 out of 3 the camera is behind Cloud (bridge and Tifa’s house) and in the third, the memory focuses on what Tifa is saying to Cloud (water tower).

We also have to consider Tifa’s lack of awareness of events and her memory loss during these memories. The Planet seems to be showing her these scenes from Cloud’s perspective to inform and prepare her prior to her duty in disc 2/part 3.

There are also untouched memory locations you can spot in the scene: the gates of Nibelheim, Stargazer Heights, and Seventh Heaven. The Nibelheim gates we know are important for Cloud’s identity from the OG Lifestream scene.

Stargazer Heights is where Cloud tells Tifa he remembers the promise (curiously, that memory is placed close to the water tower memory.)

And while Cloud and Tifa have obviously a lot of interactions in Seventh Heaven, I think the critical moments are actually those seen in Ever Crisis after Tifa finds Cloud at the train station, as those memories directly influence Cloud’s identity.

The “planet and its enemies” - The WEAPONs, Whispers, and Sephiroth and Jenova - are physically fighting over these memories. Sephiroth tries to kill Tifa here. We see the purple corruption of Lifestream Black occurring in this scene.

We see Tifa on the brink of death and seeing Cloud’s spirit being led away from her and her voice silenced from him by Sephiroth.

It seems to me that following this event, Cloud and Tifa’s consciousness’ are already linked. Tifa also has been given preemptive strength and knowledge to save Cloud when the time comes in part three.

Which brings me to…

Part 4: The Reunion Flower

The Reunion Lily appears on the mailbox of Tifa’s house twice: In Cloud’s flawed flashback of the Nibelheim Incident in Kalm, and during Tifa’s Trial in the Temple of the Ancients.

It does not appear at her house during the fixed memory in the Chapter 9 Lifestream scene. I think this is because the flower wasn’t actually there, but is rather a “totem” or marker of Cloud’s psyche.

Cloud knows from events in Remake what the flower symbolizes. In his flashback, he falsely remembers that he and Tifa reunited with him being a SOLDIER, though we know this isn’t true because he hid himself from her.

The flower reappears during Tifa’s Trial in the ToTA. Her trial takes place during the promise scene & the Nibelheim Incident, the same period as Cloud’s flashback, and when she was hoping to reunite with him - but thinks that she did not (because Cloud hid himself).

In the OG, the appearance of young Cloud is representative of the Real Cloud and his psyche. My belief is that his appearance here is another indication that after Tifa falls into the Lifestream, Cloud and Tifa are mentally and spiritually connected.

Next...

Part 5: The Ending

While the ending may be confusing, several replays make it clear to me that Aerith is dead & that once again, the metaphysical Lifestream (indicated by rainbows) is in play in what we see.

Cloud, who is shattered in the collective unconscious of the metaphysical Lifestream, can see what is “manifested” in these worlds. Similarly, these worlds are influenced not only by memories, and knowledge, but by hopes, dreams, and desires.

Without going off on another tangent, I think Cloud is seeing the manifestation of his desire to save Aerith’s life in the metaphysical Lifestream & that she is temporarily aiding him in this delusion (remember, Aerith can maintain her sense of self within the LS after death).

After the murder, Barret & Tifa run up & we are given BOTH of their perspectives of this death scene. Barret very clearly only sees the real-world scene - Aerith dead, bleeding, etc.

However, when we get Tifa’s perspective, she sees glimpses of what Cloud sees - including his mental static - with interspersed scenes of the real-world death and the rainbow Lifestream where Aerith is not dead or bleeding but is "saved”.

Tifa is quite confused & horrified but seems to accept the actual scene - her death. She is not deluded or blocking things out, she knows what is real.

It’s confusing but it is purposefully clear to me that Tifa is seeing, or can see, what Cloud sees. It is not revealed how much Tifa knows is Cloud’s delusion but it is clear that she is deeply affected, not only by the murder of her friend but by something else.

And Tifa remains disturbingly distraught for the rest of the game. In fact, when she calls Aerith’s name in this scene it’s her last line in the game - she does not speak again. Once again, this is a clue to me that Cloud & Tifa are soul-bonded bc of the chapter 9 events.

In the ending CGI, Cloud tells the group not to look up. Barret does and says he doesn’t see anything. Tifa looks up but doesn’t comment, instead continues to look distressed. Does she also see the rift that Cloud sees? Her behavior is the most jarring of the entire party.

In the penultimate cinematics, we see the WEAPONS circling Tifa & Cloud’s memories again, trying to protect them from “the planet’s enemies”. We can see Tifa’s house, the bridge, and the gates of Nibelheim under them.

These sequences are plot arrows for what we should expect to see in Part 3. It should be lost on no one that the planet is actively fighting to protect Cloud & Tifa’s precious memories, especially after personally guiding Tifa through them.

Which brings me to...

Part 6: The Lifestream Scene (OG/Part 3)

All of the above has led me to conclude that Cloud & Tifa are now spiritually or “soul-bound” in some way, explicitly for the preparation of the Lifestream Scene of Part 3.

Tifa’s role is to help Cloud “restore his sense of self” by entering his individual Lifestream and navigating their fixed memories and the truth about his identity in the physical Lifestream, which occurs when they fall in Mideel.

Rebirth has not only prepared Tifa for this role, but has given us the navigation, insight, and background lore for how it will occur and what the experience might actually entail. This may include elements of both the physical and Metaphysical Lifestream mentioned above.

It has set the stage for an in-depth expansion of the original scene that does not solely focus on what happened when rebuilding Cloud’s psyche, but the why behind his choices and decisions that let them to this moment.

These scenes have also demonstrated why Cloud’s consciousness - his individual Lifestream consciousness that contains his “self-consciousness” and “storehouse consciousness”- is and will remain closed off to anyone other than Tifa.

This is where Cloud’s true desires are concealed and must be revealed to Tifa in the Lifestream scene to facilitate his restoration and their reunion and reconciliation.

Which brings me to…

Part 7: Those Chosen by The Planet- Soulmates?

Why is all of this happening? Cloud is the boy who is destined to save the planet, and Tifa is destined to save him. If the planet has memories of the future as well as the past, then it knows this.

Just like the planet knows that it needs the last Cetra in the Lifestream to help save it, it also knows that it needs Cloud to defeat Sephiroth. And I think the planet has known this for a long time.

Is it far-fetched to wonder if the planet is somewhat responsible for the genesis of Cloud and Tifa’s bond? That, in keeping with the theme of fate, it has influenced the circumstances that have both brought them together and pulled them apart throughout the Compilation?

Is it possible that the planet kept baby Cloud and Tifa alive during the bridge incident? Now, with the context of the Remake Trilogy, I don’t see how two small children survived that fall.

Are Cloud and Tifa chosen by the Planet?

Are they soul mates?

Maybe we’ll find out.

Thanks for reading!

[ffvii-series-incorrect-quotes]

[usagifuyusummer]

I've been snooping around since Rebirth came out because, man, ever since FFVIIR, I can't stop thinking about FF7...

After seeing Zack's parents, I can definitely see how his hair is both a mix of his parents styles. The front part from his mom and the spiky parts from his dad.

We do know Zack's light blue green mako eye color isn't natural, so from what we can see from his parents, we can conclude that Zack had a more brown-ish green-ish grey-ish lighter eye color before becoming a SOLDIER?

(Does anyone else have a more accurate desription on what they think Zack's original eye color might be like?)

I wonder how Zack looks like with the eye color we can see from his parents here. Admittedly, I do think that the scene is quite dark for me to truly observe his parents models design, since it is really different from the OG design.

I wish there was someone out there who could rip those models out for people as curious as me to observe. As they did bring up some info on Gongaga that I thought was really intriguing, like why tell us that? Why bring up that the Cetra descendants settled in Gongaga and lived in seclusion??? Why not just give us a full mock history book in the game that tells us the places where the Cetra have migrated or were prominent in? I have even more questions in my head than answers right now... Its brainrotting bad lmao.

Hm, I hope Part 3 clears up the questions I have on Zack and some FF7 stuff...

And how in the hell the Planet as a character is going to be portrayed??? Will Zack or the whole cast meet Minerva again to beat her ass up the second time??? Is Genesis even possible at this point, since there's only one part left to explain this whole thing...

I really hope Zack gets a DLC or specific story parts if they didn't have time to fully expand on some Crisis Core loose ends, Jenova and Dirge of Cerberus stuff... Maybe they're planning to do that after the main games end??? I don't know, there's just too many uncertainties right now. And I'm just rambling out of my mind lmao.

Side note, I didn't know what to describe Zack's parents eye colors, so if what I wrote in the poll is not accurate, sorry for that. Unless either someone tells me, or I read/watch an analysis of this somewhere, then I'll change it. This is the limit of my knowledge on this so far. Discussions are open for anyone of course, if there are any who think about this as much as I do lol.

I don't know if polls can be reopened, since I don't really want to have a time limit on this one. I'm just curious on what others think of this. If my post ever gets far of course... That's why I didn't want the time limit. I'll see what happens then. Thanks for reading my ramblings this far.

[makololpop]

Still thinking about the Rebirth ending and all the theories people have. I personally like the theory that the Zack parts are actually him in the lifestream, but there are holes in that theory.

Why are Marlene, Elmyra, and Kyrie there? They aren't dead. Biggs being there can make sense, because maybe he doesn't accept that he's dead yet?? There are other questions I have, like how they showed Tifa, Barret, and Red XIII at the beginning (and Red was shown to be conscious for a moment as he helped take the helicopter down).

On the other hand there are a lot of holes in the alternate timeline theory as well, that I feel people aren't really addressing. One of the biggest ones is Marlene. Marlene knows Cloud and Aerith. Aerith saved her and she saw her future just like in the Beagle world. But how would that make sense if it was an alternate timeline where Cloud was with Zack the whole time?

Without Cloud wandering off to Midgar, meeting and helping Avalanche, then meeting Aerith, there would be no way Marlene would have met Aerith. Aerith never would have left Sector 5 and she wouldn't have met Tifa or Barret or any of Avalanche. Therefore she wouldn't have saved Marlene.

Elmyra and Kyrie don't seem to recognize Cloud (as far as I can tell at least), so it's just Marlene and Biggs (but Biggs is from the Beagle world).

I think both theories have valid points, but also have their mysteries and things that don't add up. I have so many questions, but I'm curious to see what happens in Part 3!

[voicefromthecorner]

Alright FFVII fans (and other willing volunteers), enough dancing around it! With a month to go until Rebirth comes out, it's time to discuss the title of the third game in this trilogy!

We already have Remake and Rebirth of course, plus the Crisis Core Reunion prequel and the Retrograde DLC (or was it Remission? (EDIT: it's Intergrade and Intermission. I'm an idiot, of course)), so we all see the pattern, don't we? Thus, I shall wager that the final game in this saga shall be one of THESE WORDS:

I'm not exactly a prankster, so while I know I'm putting my life in the hands of the internet here, I am willing to accept suggestions on some kind of forfeit if the third game doesn't have one of these titles. Purely for fun, but why not? I figure my odds are pretty goo-OH, RECONFIGURE, DARN IT!

So yeah, place your bets, cast your votes and throw in your ideas! What do you think will be the name of the final game of the FFVII remake trilogy?

[silver-wield]

You think the reason he can go snow boarding is because he hasn't come to turn that he hast stopped hallucinating a dead person? Nothing shippy obviously. It's a mechanism the brain does to stop someone from spiraling down. Like when SA victims block their trauma to the point like it never happened at all. Because if they do everything will resurface. Because if it resurfaced for cloud, then one of the stars of trilogy Zack, will haunt him again. He's done another failure, someone died because of him being a weakling. He can't be a hero, he's also not a soldier, and therefore cannot be important to Tifa. He can't protect Tifa.. 😭 and therefore not deserve her 😭.

That's likely the angle they're gonna take with it. I'm expecting some fucked up shit up until his break down at the crater.

[browniefox]

Can't remember if I've made this post before, but my theory for the clear materia in FFVIIR is either that it will a) slowly fill up with Cloud's memories of this second Aerith, who will then become a summon companion, or b) it will hold Cloud's memories of Zack after Tifa helps him sort that out, and then Zack will be a summon companion

[nebuvoid]

i had this terrible thought during my replay btw. you know how FFVIIR Cloud wears this scummy looking bandage under his glove?

Tifa you really couldnt convince him to change that grody thing?

anyway since apparently R is gonna have CC and AC and probably also DoC canon (god save us all), wouldnt it be hilarious if they bring geostigma into the story early and thats why Cloud is wearing that? im not saying i want that or even that im coming up with some big brain theory. i just think it would be funny in a NO GOD WHY kinda way you know

[oveliagirlhaditright]

Reasons I think a Final Fantasy VIII Remake could've could be fun:

Addressing the elephant in the room first: yes, they would have to rework the Junction system (since the Junction system is canon to the story). But I don't think there's anything saying that they wouldn't be able to do that all these years later (and that maybe Square has even having thought about it some during said long years). I for sure think they'd be able to find a way to make it better (and less broken for those who get it, and less complicated for those who don't) and something new for this generation, ala FFVIIR's battle system.

Rewrites to the story: this is a thing that would probably have to be a thing that would happen, too, as the story of FFVIII is admittedly not perfect: Most of all to make characters other than Squall and Rinoa more important to the overall story, I think. But seeing just how Square Enix was able to handle character writing in the FFVIIR parts-- and add changes to the story that didn't hurt things (we're not talking about the Whispers or timeline stuff here), but rather enhanced it: like explaining that the Gi created the black materia--I have faith in them.

Now for some things that I, personally, would love to see, that I think could help FFVIII in the modern era, and perhaps the story:

My friend @bluerosesburnblue in defending Rinoa Heartily one time, once described her as a social justice warrior--with all the best intentions--who doesn't exactly know what she's getting into, and gets in over her head. And she's exactly right. If FFVIII were to ever be remade, I'd love to see that sort of direction taken with Rinoa's character, perhaps.

Another elephant in the room, perhaps (but one that I think would be fun/funny. And worth the price of admission... at least for me. I might just be weird). I feel like there would have to be a joke about selfies and Selphie's name. But I don't want them to modernize FFVIII with smart phones like they did FFVII. FFVIII takes place in an era akin to the Cold War, and that's where it should stay. But I've seen many a vintage post labeled something like "a selfie made before selfies were created!" Where a person, back in the day, seemingly did take a kind of selfie with cameras of old. And I think we could do that with FFVIII: the people of that world learn how to take selfies with their cameras, and they become a big hit. And Selphie says something like, "I was 'Selphie' before these 'selfies' ever existed. And I'm the best one that exists, don'chu know?" IDK.

Anyway, those are some of my thoughts for a Final Fantasy VIII remake, if one were to ever exist.

Feel free to add onto this if you have more:)

Edit: And this one y'all will either love or hate. But I believe it was Kitase who said that if they remade Final Fantasy VIII, they might play with the "Squall is Dead" theory. They wouldn't make it true or anything like that, but probably put some red herrings about it there and pay homage to it. I personally like this idea, think it's fun, and would like to see it if we ever did get said Remake. But I also completely understand why others would hate the idea.

[bluerosesburnblue]

1. I don't know if you're keeping up with FFVII Rebirth stuff, since I know you haven't played FFVII Remake (though I know you at least kept up with the general idea of what happened with FFVII Remake). But have you noticed how divided some of the fandom is with what's going on with it? Like, how some people think there are multiple timelines going on (which I definitely think is the case. And I think SE just confirmed that). Whereas some think there are only one.

2. And not even just with the timeline thing (though that's certainly part of it), people are just so adamant that everything they think about how FFVII Rebirth is going to go is absolutely right. And I'm just... worried that people are going to be wrong in some areas. And are building it up in their heads too much, and are going to be disappointed in the end. I feel like I learned my lesson some with Game of Thrones and KHIII, but this recent fandom trend (not just with FFVII oc) concerns me. 3. And I guess I'm wondering if you've also noticed that kind of thing in other fandoms, or feel the same way. I'm sure we could name other fandoms that are doing that (KH very much still is). And I also feel like FNAF definitely does that: like in "I've solved the story of FNAF (or this part of the story of it), and everyone else is wrong." And it feels like, at least in some ways, people are in danger of making their own stories of the stories they say they love, and not loving the real thing. 4. I'm hoping that the FFVII Rebirth thing will be SLIGHTLY better, now that SE has confirmed that it's multiple timelines. But a part of me is still kind of biting my lip, because it still feels like at least parts of the fandom are like, "FFVII Rebirth is going to open like X, and then do this thing, and then this is going to happen, and end like this." And I'm kind of like... why? ...Not that I want to put bad thoughts about FFVIIR out there now, when there's so many reasons to be hyped atm.

You know, funny enough, I was actually talking to a friend of mine yesterday about this exact same thing happening in the Pokemon fandom right now with regards to the ending of Pokemon Scarlet/Violet and how the fandom is completely split on what a certain device in the finale (not gonna spoil things since you did say you might be interested in the game) does. One side takes what the game says it is at face value, the other has a conspiracy theory that "fixes" certain plot holes that they're adamant is correct. And both arguments, to me, are kind of pointless since we already know that the upcoming second DLC this winter is going to cover it? They weren't even subtle about the fact that we're going to be getting more on it, with the DLC pack being called "The Hidden Treasure of Area Zero" (Area Zero being the location of the game's finale)

And you're right, it is a worrying trend across a lot of fandoms. There's this... I don't know, obsession, with the idea of being "the one who called it" amongst certain people. As someone who's been known to engage in theories myself, I don't think there's anything wrong with theorizing, necessarily, or with defending the merits of your arguments pre-release, but you also have to be open to being wrong and willing to look at your stuff before and after and realize that "being wrong" isn't always some sort of failing on your part (though some people are just wrong because their comprehension of established facts were wrong and that usually is their fault, that's only an issue if you stubbornly refuse to allow yourself to be wrong when presented with corrected information)

Like, you might remember some of my KHUx theorycrafting and the fact that I was half-right, half-wrong on some things. Like, I called the fact that Ephemer and Brain were going to split up with one going outside of the Datascape to try to save the others and one staying behind, and that the one who stayed behind would also get out of the Datascape after the others were gone. I was wrong about which was which. Looking back, I can look at my own reasoning and see where it was sound, and where I was just limited by the available information (IIRC I said all of this before Brain handed Master's Defender and the Book of Prophecies over to Ephemer, which would have certainly changed my reasoning). Not having all of the pieces because they hadn't been revealed yet isn't a failing on my part. A failing on my part would be seeing those pieces and how they contradict what I've come up with, and refusing to adjust my stance because I won't allow myself to be wrong

Being wrong isn't some horrible, life-ruining thing that a lot of people in fandoms make it out to be. More people should be open to being wrong, actually. Takes the fun out of things if you always know what's going to happen, and to me it also kind of belittles authors by assuming that you know their own work better than they do (which, again, sometimes warranted because some modern authors shun "predictability" and make nonsensical plots just to surprise *COUGH* GAME OF THRONES *COUGH*, but frequently not)

Actually, another example. I've mentioned that I'm a fan of the comic One Last God: Kubera. It's a really wonderful, intricately crafted narrative and part of that is due to the fact that the whole thing was written as a fully complete novel before the author decided to convert it to a comic. It isn't being written as it goes, but has been fully planned out from the very start of the comic. Now, up until one of the most recent updates, there were two big theories in the fandom that most people... just kind of assumed were probably going to be true. Without giving too much away, one of the theories was that a certain character who would frequently seem to have their motivations and what they know shift between scenes, was time-traveling (and we were sometimes seeing their present self, and sometimes their self from another time). Another theory was that two of the highest-level gods in the series (Primeval Gods) were actually split personalities of the same person. Now, the former theory had some merit to me, the second made no goddamned sense since we had seen the two interact with each other, they've always been depicted as separate, and there's at least one instance where one is in the room and gives the exact location of the other (which even people who believed the theory took as fact even though it being fact would contradict the theory?), but the people who believed that one were diehard about it. Couldn't go into a discussion about either character without it being brought up

Well, lo and behold, one of the latest updates from this past month revealed that, actually, there's a way for someone to impersonate a god and that's what's been happening, with this directly being the real answer for the first theory and having a strong implication to be the real answer behind the second theory. I'm loath to even call it a twist, since the mechanic behind it is just... something that we knew about from the very start of the series and just didn't realize the implications of until it was said outright. I sure as hell didn't think about it, but when I saw it my first thought was "oh, DUH." But I saw people genuinely upset about this reveal because it contradicted the theory, calling it "disappointing" because "it feels like the author thought about it at the last minute," and "the time travel theory made way more sense." When, no, it doesn't. The new update is literally just taking something we were told at the very start to its logical conclusion. And yet people were getting upset because they had completely sold themselves on the theory being the true answer and their belief in it being "right" to the point where they were blaming the author rather than their own guesswork. It's something I find infuriating

All this being a very long-winded way of saying that from my observation, there's an ever-growing intersection between fans who are entitled and fans who refuse to allow themselves to be wrong that's leading to an unfortunate trend of people desperately coming up with theories, then refusing to admit when they're wrong and counting their theories as "better" than the source material. And this, unfortunately, just makes fandoms a much more hostile place between people who actually do like the source material and are open to new experiences and these fans

And I do want to make it clear that there's a distinction between defending your theory and reasoning when you have confidence that you're correct, and outright refusing to accept contradictory information because you can't handle the idea of having a flaw. I would know, because I got accused of doing the latter constantly at my last job when I was doing the former. The difference is in being able to verify the evidence you're using to support your logic. Like, for fuck's sake, I'm not "being defensive" or "trying to get out of things" when I hand you the stats and say something doesn't look viable. Same stuff can apply to fan theories

Also, as if this wasn't long enough already, I just gotta add:

And it feels like, at least in some ways, people are in danger of making their own stories of the stories they say they love, and not loving the real thing.

I hate to say it, that's most of fandom culture these days and I hate it. Go into any given character tag on Tumblr and you'll see a million headcanons that directly contradict what's said in the source material at best and completely undermine the character's entire storyline at worst. You'd start to suspect that the people making these have no sense of reading comprehension and are only here for the aesthetics, but then scroll a bit and you'll see dozens of "redesigns" that "fix" the character by completely ignoring a ton of the cultural influences, small personality-defining hints in the look, or in-universe justifications for things. Want to find a fic of a certain character because you like their personality? How about a dozen where they're so wildly out of character that the only possible explanation is that the author just decided to write out an OC and slapped the character's name on because that's the kind of look they imagined their OC having, because there's no way they could've gotten that from the source material

There's a reason I started a Fandom Critical tag on here for this kind of stuff. It's so pervasive nowadays. Like, it kills any desire I once had to publish my own stuff because, well, fuck, no one's gonna care about what I actually have to say about my works, they'll just appropriate whatever little bits and pieces suit them

And I just genuinely don't get it. I don't get how we got to this point where people will go around praising a creator's works with one breath while showing no sign of understanding or even liking that work with the "fan" content they produce. And this is a separate, but related, issue to the theory stuff above because, like I said, it's possible to just guess wrong with theories and it's fine so long as you don't refuse to accept that you were wrong or get militant about it, but a lot of non-theory fanworks? Those just go beyond into sometimes ignorant, sometimes spiteful territory. You don't even want to see what my blacklist on here looks like just to try to get a handle on some of that stuff because at some point the lack of respect for the original works and their creators just really eats away at me

[freelanceexorcist]

So I found out recently that in the beginning of OG FFVII development, there was an entirely different story but that it was scrapped because it was deemed too dark for a FF game. I think it went on to become the story of another game, but don’t quote me on that.

In light of that, it stands out to me the fans who are coming up with theories about FFVIIR that are so grimdark that I don’t even want to know where some peoples’ minds are at.

Like “hey, you know what would be really awesome? You know what would make the story way better? 100% more pain, suffering and torture! Game of Thrones that shit up, bruh! Force the 14-year-old to kill the first friends he’s ever had. Have Zack die in every universe he exists in. Have the bad guys be so cartoonishly evil they make Ramsay Bolton look like Santa Claus. And there had better be buckets of blood when Aerith gets kebab’ed. I will not be satisfied until you’ve ripped out my soul and pissed on it!”

In a game that rejected a whole plot because it was too dark for Final Fantasy.

I’m not calling anyone out because I’m guilty, too. I just thought it was kinda ironic (am I using the term correctly)? It’s kinda like wanting there to be more beheadings on a sitcom.

[icharchivist]

Okay now my turn to send you an ask hehe

So I have a coworker that got into ffvii through the remake and a little while ago Advent Children was playing in a few theaters where I live, so this coworker got to watch AC for the first time. He really loved it but was telling me that he's kinda confused about how the events of AC tie in to ffviir, so I talked him into playing the OG to better understand AC, since the remake isn't. Exactly the same game

He's been updating me on his OG progress, and he's in the progress of getting Cloud's dress for Corneo, but he's enjoying the OG game so much and it makes me happy! He's still kinda confused about the similarities and differences between ffviiog and ffviir, I think he's still kinda seeing them as the same game, or since he played the remake first he's comparing the og to the remake, but he's been developing his own theories and the like for what he thinks will happen in the og, and it's been fun

Now I just need to convince him to play CC so he *really* gets the full story, and so he can experience all the love and heartache that is Zack :3c

OOOOOOH that's sO COOL

I'm so glad he's enjoying the OG and was curious to explore it even after playing the remake!! I can imagine it is super confusing to go from the remake to the OG and trying to make sense of it @.@ but i'm so glad he is having fun and is getting the gears working on theoryland.

That's so so fun i'm so happy you're getting this experience of watching him go through it, and so happy he seems to like it

and hell yeah CC next on the line. Do It For Zack.jpg. :3c admiring you planning the suffering, you're so right about it

i love it, than you for telling me <333 wishing you the best!!!

[onigiri-dorkk]

Attack on Titan AOE vs. Final Fantasy VII Remake/Rebirth Parallels

Alright fam. This is my ultimate multi-fandom post! This will go out to fellow AOT x FFVII fans -- especially those who have been looking into the AOT/ANR theories regarding AOE.

Obviously there will be heavy spoilers for both Attack on Titan as well as for Final Fantasy VII (OG and Remake).

Recently I've dived into the theory and lore to FFVII and a LOT of it lines up with what's been theorized for AOT regarding different medias being different timelines for one entire story:

For AOT, the manga is theorized to be a different timeline than the anime.

For FFVII, the original game (OG) is now officially implied to be a different parallel timeline than the current Remake.

In AOT, Eren and Paradis Island's fate from the Manga ending is death, that Paradis is still destroyed despite everything he does to prevent that. In the Manga, he reaches 80% Rumbling and then dies by Mikasa's hands; a sacrifice he was willing to make in order to allow Mikasa, Armin and friends to be heroes and live long lives (which they do) and for Paradis to survive -- however the cycle of hatred still continues on when Paradis is bombed, negating most of what he acted towards.

Before I get into this next part, let me also mention that the Cabin dream is implied to be a previous or parallel timeline -- in this, we see Eren die; his eyes slowly close, fading to black to his peaceful death as Mikasa says, "See you later, Eren..." which directly reflects the beginning pages of the manga of the moments and words he sees just before he wakes up underneath the tree. In other words, when Eren dies in Cabin timeline, he awakens to what we know to be the Manga timeline. It's a peaceful wakeup, sitting up against the tree as he had been sitting at the Cabin during death. He doesn't cry -- he only wonders why Mikasa's hair was long (because when he saw her last in Cabin timeline, her hair was short). Then the manga story ensues, leading up to his inevitable death by Mikasa beheading him -- a violent, gruesome death in the Manga...

...To which he wakes up in the Anime, in fright and shock, laying down on the ground with his head laying directly where Mikasa had laid his headstone in the Manga post-war, as if he'd just woken from his violent death in manga.

This is very similar to what is actually happening (not just theorizing) with FFVII right now.

In the original (OG) game, Aerith is killed by Sephiroth while trying to save Midgar/the world from Meteor destruction, then her soul is essentially absorbed into the Lifestream. In the end, Cloud defeats Sephiroth (who also goes into Lifestream), but in the process, Midgar is still completely destroyed by the Meteor as it was too late to completely save everything, even if the rest of the world was saved.

There are already some parallels here:

Rumbling = Meteor. The world is saved, but still experienced mass destruction. Lifestream = somewhat like Paths, allowing people to transcend time/space/etc.

However a big thing paralleling AOT theories is that the FFVII OG game ends with Aerith (remember, she was killed), surrounded by Lifestream energy, closing her eyes... Then the Remake game opening with Aerith, surrounded by Lifestream energy, opening her eyes as it leads to the new game unfolding.

Aerith woke up in a new timeline.

And there is plenty of evidence throughout the Part I that shows that she knows what is fated to happen based on the OG game/previous timeline:

She knows details about Cloud even though he didn't share/she acts like she already knows him well.

She gives him a flower because he's a 'special' customer, and says that the flower is a symbol for when lovers reunite.

She knew that the Plate would fall and destroy Sector 7, even though Tifa and Cloud were doubtful, but she couldn't tell them. (Tifa: "Aerith... What are you not telling me?")

She knew Tifa wanted her to save Marlene, even before Tifa even said it

In the special cut scene between Cloud and Aerith, she tells him with sadness that everyone dies eventually. And she advises Cloud to never fall in love with her (because she knows how that tragically ended in the original). She KNOWS she's fated to die.

And these are ALL differences from the OG game -- Aerith didn't have any of these reactions, dialogue, thoughts, sentiments before. She is implied to be operating in Remake with the knowledge of how things ended before: that she would be killed, that Midgar would still be destroyed, that Sephiroth would still be alive.

Except this time, with all that knowledge of OG fate, Aerith is now trying to actively veer things away from the tragic fate and destiny laid out before them. (Side note, Whispers are also game-original and are trying to reel things back to fate/destiny. Also, Sephiroth, being part of Lifestream from OG, is also operating with the knowledge that he failed in the OG. Like Aerith, Sephiroth is trying to change destiny.)

And if that isn't enough yet to convince you that it's a different FFVII timeline... ZACK IS ALIVE. They show him make it out of the battle that killed him before. It is an entirely new journey. (I will cry if/when Zack and Aerith reunite)

Now we circle around right back to AOT.

Like Aerith, Anime Eren is theorized to know how things ended in the Manga: his death, Paradis' destruction, etc. He gained this knowledge when he kissed Historia's hand (in both anime and manga), gaining access to memories of the future... and of the past. But not just memories of the Anime timeline. Founding Titan Eren is interconnected with Paths, the way Aerith is to Lifestream, both of which surpass time itself, as we've seen with Eren/Zeke traveling through his memories. (There's a lot of imagery alluding to Manga art intertwined with Anime, but that's a sub-sub-sub-theory)

There is also a side theory that Aerith transferred memories to Red XIII (as she pressed her hand to his forehead upon meeting) because he was already most attuned to the Lifestream itself, and he becomes her aid almost. Likewise, there is a fun theory regarding Eren using Falco as a messenger/Falco receives memories from Eren (which is why in Anime, Falco recalls memories of 'flying around with swords'... Which couldn't have come from Ymir Freckles. You can only see memories once you HAVE the Titan shifter; Falco at the beginning of S4E1 was still just Falco. Falco has also already been used as a messenger of Eren's letters. Falco is also one of the most neutral characters who shows empathy and understanding of both sides. He is a special character. If AOE happens as theorized, many think Falco will play an important role)

Now there is a certain tragic ending that we think Isayama has been alluding to for forever. I'm not gonna say it here because some of you will get triggered over attachment to certain characters/ships and whatnot. But the core of it is that we think Eren is going to do things very differently to change the fate and destiny -- that maybe, instead of choosing others over his freedom, instead of only committing 80% Rumbling (leaving enough people to lead to the demise of Paradis)... Maybe Eren will even choose his freedom this time via 100% rumbling, etc.

Honestly, who knows! There may be an entirely new ending that's the best of both worlds for every single fan. (...Sarcastic, though, because not everyone can or will be pleased. Even for FFVII, OG purists are frustrated by it veering off.)

I do not believe AOT Anime is going to end the same way the Manga did even if I have reasons for wanting it to stay the same (y'all know me and why I would NOT want it to end different; there are special scenes between my OTP I need to see, especially post-war) but it's because we've seen many consistent things throughout the anime -- through the story, dialogue, recurring imagery, etc. all for a separate detailed post -- that Isayama could have potentially been foreshadowing since 2013 towards a new ending.

"What's the lie? What's the truth?"

The fact that Tetsuya Nomura (maker of FFVII) is already doing this meta-narrative of having one media/game being an entirely different timeline than the original content is SO cool, and affirms that if Isayama is pulling this same stunt, it's not because of fans trying to riot and change an ending, but because that's... well, that's what could've been planned from the start, and because it's a really unique storytelling technique that would elevate a work by making many pieces come together as one, singular, consistent story in a brilliant way.

Obviously there's no IRL link between FFVII and AOT, but again, Nomura doing this makes it less crazy and more probably for another Japanese mastermind storyteller to do this, too. (And I won't even START on Muv Luv/Muv Luv Alternative! But it's the same thing, too!)

I'll stop there for now. Any AOT AOE x FFVII fans out there?! PLEASE tell me I'm not alone LOL

[rhoeysama]

I used to ship Vincent and Aerith. Weird, I know. I still kind of do, even though it makes little to no sense, because Aerith loves Cloud (and arguably Tifa as well, really) and Vincent is hung up on Lucrecia and atonement. Sure. But even so, I want to see Vincent and Aerith have one or two bonding moments, establishing their friendship. Not romantically, because it wouldn’t fit into the story, but as friends. Perhaps we could have a moment where we see the two of them have a deep conversation; these two, who are very much like a foil to each other’s character, and yet so similar in many ways. If this happens, I will be crying with joy.

Here’s a headcanon/idea I have, about how it could potentially go down: Since Vincent was born in 1950, he probably grew up in a flower-power-esque era when a lot of young people were against the war with Wutai. Although he ended up working for Shinra in his 20′s, he had a rebellious streak in his teens, and a lot of the hippie culture and lingo rubbed off on him. And since he was technically secluded for 30 years since the 70′s, and times have changed, some of the time, old slang slips out when he makes an effort to partake in fun activities with the others, much to his embarrassment. Aerith pokes fun at him for it relentlessly, and teaches him some new slang, and she in turn has a lot of fun learning 1960′s and 70′s slang from him. Vincent, who is the most serious of the group, even finds himself chuckling from time to time.

One time, Yuffie loudly makes a point of that she’s been thinking about Vincent’s age and calculating, and comes to the conclusion that he must be around her dad’s age or more, and that once upon a time, Vincent used to be a hippie with big hair and wearing flowers in his hair. Vincent denies this, but he fails to mask his embarrassment, and Yuffie bursts out laughing and exclaims “I KNEW IT!”. Embarrassed, he clears his throat and tries to explain away that it was “just a phase”. But alas, his secret is out, and Yuffie points out that she can’t get the image out of her head, and is laughing hysterically, and says that she needs pictures of this. The girls especially, together with Cid and Barret, are having a ball, making comments and laughing. Vincent leaves the group behind to go and be by himself, and doesn’t return for several hours, and eventually everyone goes to sleep.

Unable to sleep, Aerith is out for a walk that night, and comes across Vincent by himself, and decides to sit down and join him. She makes it very clear that all of the joking was all in good humor, and they didn’t mean to pick on him, to which he says “It’s all right”. She tells him that she knows what it’s like to feel like one doesn’t belong. She tells him, sincerely, about growing up, feeling like she was all alone, and that she can’t imagine what it must be like to have been like a “stone in the river of time”; to being locked away for so long and to come out into a world that has changed and you no longer recognize it.

Aerith then also ventures to ask him if he knew Professor Gast. Vincent tells her that he has met him a few times, and wonders why she brought it up out of the blue. She then tells him that growing up in the Shinra building, Professor Hojo once referred to Professor Gast as her father, and she always wanted to know what he was like, and figured that since Vincent used to be a Turk working under Professor Hojo, he might have known her father. Vincent tells her about Professor Gast, that he was a great man in many ways. “He would have been proud of you,” Vincent tells her, “and...I think he is”. To that, Aerith smiles. They have a little bonding moment, the two most unlikely of friends.

[silver-wield]

Imma drag this back out since we now know a hell of a lot more about dates and how the story is gonna progress.

This is the calendar from in the game, and it's very suspicious.

So what do we think?

The first bombing mission is on the 9th and I've already covered why I think Remake is a week long in game time.

So for the rest of December:

Is the 17th-21st the days the team spend going from Kalm to Costa del Sol? Is it a relaxing trip for the most part?

Whose birthday is on the 24th? Or is that the Cosmo Canyon arc where we learn Nanaki's real name?

Would the 27th be the GS dates? And then two days later Aerith dies, so that's why it's scrubbed out? Fun fact: she does actually die about 2/3 days after the GS date in OG, which is why I said that.

And then we have two days spare before the end and we head into part three? Or maybe they'll skip those two days as them travelling from the forgotten city to icicle inn and we'll just start there on January 1st and part three will take 21 in game days?

A lot of this is speculation, although I did check the times for sunrise/set in 2007 to help estimate the time of day.

There's very few in game clocks and notices to pin point the hour. There's one in chapter 1 before you go into the reactor and another on the wall in Jessie's house in chapter 4.

I'm going to guess at the ring around the 2nd of December is when Zack and Cloud escaped their test tubes because there's no other event that happened on that date. This would also give Zack time to mosey with Cloud assuming little time passed until he got that letter from Aerith and decided to return to Midgar.

FF7 is typical for using a lot of 7 symbolism and 7R also does this, which leads me to believe the in game timeline is no more than a week long, from the evening of the 9th to the morning of the 16th.

This leads to the next marker on the calendar, which either says return or reborn. Now, I was saying before that this was when they escaped and decided to return to Midgar, but that leaves a plot hole where them waking on the 2nd doesn't.

So, on the 4th, Zack and Cloud start heading to Midgar, pursued by Shinra.

On the 7th is Zack's last stand.

It takes Cloud at least 30hrs to cross the remaining few miles into Midgar, where he collapses from exhaustion at the train station in sector 7. Late that evening (8th), Tifa finds Cloud and his soldier persona snaps into place. We have to assume he spent the night in the bar and then the next day, he agreed to join the reactor 1 mission.

Chapter one

09/12/07

8.50pm - 11.00pm

The clock before you enter the reactor has several train times listed with the next one due at 8.50pm. Avalanche want to be in and out quickly, so wouldn't have taken long to get to mako storage, although the boss battle and escape would've stretched the time limit. The maximum amount of time on the bomb is 30m and Barret acts like Cloud is a coward if we choose it. Meaning they had 20m maximum to get out.

Chapter two:

09/12/07 - 10/12/07

11.00pm - 12.00am

Cloud and co catch the last train out of Midgar. The detour from the collapse and Cloud having to fight his way through wouldn't have taken long or else there would have been more public security on the streets. They'd had time to install some roadblocks and scramble choppers, which would've taken about 30m-1hr.

Chapter 3

10/12/07

12.30am - 4.00pm

The train journey taken into account, Avalanche arrives back in sector 7 after midnight.

That morning, Cloud and Tifa spend time together until late afternoon when Barret sends him off. After fighting Corneo's goons, Cloud wants a nap, so heads back to stargazer heights, where he run into Jessie.

The lighting changes after their chat, indicating the sun will set soon, meaning it's around 4pm.

Chapter 4

10/12/07 - 11/12/07

9.00pm - 7.00am

It's fully dark when Cloud goes to the station to meet Jessie and the trains are on a reduced schedule. This means that Cloud did get some sleep in the meantime, though I doubt it was very restful.

It takes them longer to reach the plate than a train would because the bikes aren't as fast and they have to fight public security and Roche.

By the time Cloud's "mission" stealing a security card is through we see from the clock it's 12.35am.

This leaves the remaining time dedicated to the storming the annex and getting home to sector 7 again.

After a chat with Tifa, where we could assume she's up early or just couldn't sleep, the chapter ends early that morning when whispers attack and incapacitate Jessie.

Chapter 5

11/12/07

8.00am - 2.00pm

After prepping, the triple A trio take the rush hour train to Midgar, with Tifa noting how empty the carriages are.

Following the jump from the train, it takes several hours to reach the platform that'll take them to the underplate.

Chapter 6

11/12/07

3.00pm - 6.00pm

Tifa notes the sunset seen on the horizon and by the time they make it to the far side of the underplate, we can see in president Shinra's view from his office that it's dark.

Chapter 7

11/12/07

6.30pm - 10.30pm

President Shinra's office window shows us it's dark and it would've taken a few hours to go up all the floors, fight the enemies and mess with the airbuster.

Exiting outside the reactor we can see it's fully dark.

Chapter 8

12/12/07

8.00am - 7.00pm

The whispers slow Cloud’s 300m descent into sector 5 and he wakes the next morning to Aerith telling him he fell into the flowers.

It takes a couple of hours to cross the rooftops after beating up Reno, then Cloud spends the rest of the day with Aerith and after waking from another nap, we can see it's now dark as he leaves to head back to sector 7.

Chapter 9

12/12/07 - 13/12/07

7.00pm - 12.00am

It takes around an hour to navigate the collapsed expressway and run to wall market, meaning Cloud and Aerith arrive at around 8.00pm as hinted at in one of the sector 5 posters foreshadowing the "date night."

It takes Cloud several hours to complete tasks and work his way through fights at the coliseum before he reunites with Tifa and they're dropped into the sewers.

Chapter 10

13/12/07

12.15am - 2.00am

It takes at the most a couple of hours to navigate the sewers. When Cloud, Tifa and Aerith reach the surface we see it's still dark and there's fighting going on at the pillar.

Chapter 11

13/12/07

2.00am - 4.00am

The train graveyard would also only take at the most a couple of hours due to the ghosts delaying them, as well as being forced to navigate the maze like area.

We hear over the radio that Avalanche are still holding off public security and that reinforcements are being called in, including Tseng.

Chapter 12

13/12/07

4.00am - 5.30am

Following the rules of climactic action, this chapter would take the least amount of time from start to finish to convey the high pressure the characters are under. We see both Cloud and Tifa's run up the pillar as rushed and in Tifa's case it happens at the same time as Aerith is getting Marlene. We also see that Cloud has been pinned down by the Turks for minutes at the most. They quickly reach the top and the subsequent collapse happens within the span of 30m.

The skyline, though hazy with smoke, suggests early hours of the morning.

Chapter 13

13/12/07

6.00am - 3.00pm

With Tifa knocked out, there must've been a point where Cloud put her arm under her head for her to wake like that.

It's still dark when Avalanche reach Elmyra's and when they go back to sector 7 to search for survivors.

By the time they exit deepground with Wedge most of the day has passed and Elmyra is suggesting they've had a long day and to get some rest.

Chapter 14

13/12/07 - 14/12/07

4.00pm - 2.00pm

Barret's resolution shows us it's not fully dark, which gives us a rough estimate of the time. Tifa's resolution happens around midnight, and Aerith tells us it's almost morning in hers.

When Avalanche leave Elmyra's it's early morning and they spend several hours helping out the locals and Leslie.

It's late afternoon by the time they start up the wall.

Chapter 15

14/12/07

3.00pm - 6.00pm

It's sunset at the start of this chapter and by the time the trio reach the top, several hours have passed, which is a logical conclusion based on how far they had to climb.

Chapter 16

14/12/07

7.00pm - 11.00pm

It takes a few hours of back and forth to navigate the Shinra building. The skyline is fully dark the whole time and we hear comments from workers about the late hour.

Chapter 17

15/12/07 - 16/12/07

12.00am - 4.00am

Following Cloud's passing out, the group hides in Aerith's room and spends the day recovering before getting trapped by Hojo in the drum. This takes several hours to navigate. This gives Wedge time to wake up and get inside the building where he tells the group he begged Avalanche to fly by. After they escape, they head to roof where we see it's night again. They then have to head back down when the helicopter is blown up.

Chapter 18

16/12/07

4.00am - 8.00am

The escape along the Midgar expressway and subsequent battle with the whispers and Sephiroth takes a few hours so that it's early morning in the final cut scene and for that time of year, sunrise would be around 8am.

[browniefox]

Anyway one of my theories/Headcanons for ffviir is that there’s not that many SOLDIERS left so they kind of let them do whatever they want bc they’ll probably degrade soon anyway, and trying to keep those guys under control is rough, which is why Roche just kinda does whatever seemingly.