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blossomthepinkbunny · 8 months ago

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Poor rendition of queer characters in HH and HB

Here I am again talking about queer representation in Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss, this time just more generally. Because it's always a little weird to me when people claim HH/HB to have good queer representation, when in actuality most of the queer characters are either just blatant stereotypes or get mishandled somehow. And with Helluva Boss recently winning the Queertys - Web series reward I think that this is probably a pretty good time to acknowledge that kind of stuff (as people have done before).

TW: Sexual assault, R@pe (when referring to the actions of characters)

Blitzø (Pansexual): is very sexual and seen on screen multiple times either having sex or just having had sex. Pretty much fits the general stereotype of queer men always being sexual and also the stereotype of pansexuals just sleeping with everybody. Like, he literally screwed the mutual Ex of his coworkers even though he knew how much that guy hurt them.

Stolas (Gay): also mostly sexual (from how he was introduced) and he is in a pretty terrible "relationship" with Blitzø, which includes coercion, SA, Power dynamics and fetishization. Another very sex-driven queer man. Also just great proof for the people assuming that queer relationships are inherently predatory, unhealthy and never work out.

Moxxie (Bisexual): is often forced into a very feminine role because even in relationships with women, queer men always have to be pointed out to be feminine and putting a guy in a dress is funny I guess.

Fizzarolli & Asmodeus (Queer): they're actually better than a lot of the other characters here but there is still some of that uneven power dynamic going on with them and there are obvious issues with their relationship. Overall they aren't too bad though. They didn't get that much sexual focus and what they got is kinda warranted since Ozzie is the Lust demon. But there is that one scene with Fizz stepping out of his car with Dildo confetti canons (I think) and that was sorta weird, since in an episode before that they presented Crimson as being homophobic and stereotypical for assuming queer men are all obsessed with dicks. Which is just interesting because thats most of the queer men in Vivzepops stories.

Chaz (Queer): just a sexually abusive asshole because we definitely needed more predatory queer men in this show.

Sally May (Trans mtf): basically the single recognized trans character in both shows and she only had one line. After that they made fan merch for her which consisted of her in a bikini with her bulge being drawn pretty visibly (multiple times). Of course there's nothing wrong with Trans people who don't have surgery but it's just a tiny bit weird to me that fanservice merchandise is what she got reduced to, when something like that wasn't even the joke of the only line she had in the show and because she hasn't recieved any kind of focus after that.

Angel Dust (Gay): now there is a lot of stuff that could be said about Angel. On one hand he is another very sexual gay man whose screentime often just consists of sex jokes and references. On the other hand that's a big point for his character. How he tries to act confident in his sexuality when in reality it's the main source of his problems. Though he does often harass other men in the show and that's just so unnecessary. Talking about Angel mostly leads into discussing if he is good representation for SA victims or not, which is something I don't want to talk about that much because I feel like it's not my place to judge that as someone who never has experienced SA. I'm gonna say that I do find Viv's treatment of him outside of the show insensitive (with the pro-shipping, diminishing Valentino as an Abuser and general sexualization of the characters) but as far as the portrayal of him in the show goes I've heard different opinions and you should read the discussion's of actual r@pe survivors about this topic if you want to know about more about it.

Husk (Queer): I don't have anything to say about Husk. He is a very refreshing queer man in these show's and there is nothing bad about him I could think of right now.

Valentino (Queer): for him I mostly want to talk about how he is treated outside of the show which doesn't sit right with me. He is a villian in HH so it's understandable that he is gonna do effed up stuff. I also like that the show tries to make a point about how men get sexually assaulted too (wether they succeeded in that inside the show I'm not gonna judge too hard like I said). But there are a lot of people who not only sexualize him, but also his actions and his relationship to Angel and from what I know Viv never really spoke out against that. She actually interacts with people who do that stuff and I it's just kinda gross.

Vox (Queer): I also don't have a lot to say about him. He and Val are a couple so he is dating a r@pist but he is also a villain so you can't really expect more from him. Especially since he would still be interacting with a r@pist even if they weren't dating.

Alastor (Aromantic, Asexual): is obviously not interested in relationships or sex but his identity is pretty much ignored by a huge amount of the fandom. Vivzepop never say's anything about people blatantly invalidating him like that. It seems to me like she doesn't care about characters who can't be involved in shipping but still wanted to have more diversity in her show so she just called him AroAce. In Hazbin Hotel he isn't bad representation though. His sexuality is never the focus but thats fine, it's mostly just the treatment he gets outside of HH which I don't like.

Charlie (Bisexual): doesn't have a lot to her sexuality. This is something I talked about pretty lengthy in my other post, specifically about the lack of Sapphic content in both shows, so I won't go into too much detail here. Her relationship with Vaggie would probably be the best in both shows if it wasn't for the fact that they both never get the real spotlight as a couple. And there is that thing in Vivzepops stories where the women are pretty much sexless without men and that's obviously something that is generally an issue when talking about the lack of Sapphic representation (which is also a topic heavily tied to sexism). Charlie's portrayal isn't necessarily stereotypical but that's just because there is nothing to her identity in the show.

Vaggie (Lesbian): like I said I already talked about the Chaggie relationship so now I wanna focus on something I didn't even mention in that post. Her name literally being Vagina and that's apparently funny because she is a Lesbian so she obviously likes Vagina. That's just incredibly stereotypical and also excludes Trans Lesbians and Asexual Lesbians who don't want sex. The whole joke was that Adam named her that because he is obsessed with sex and he's a jerk. But her name was always Vagina even in the pilot (from what I know Adam wasn't conceived then and neither was the idea that Vaggie even is a former exterminator).

That's all the queer characters I could think of. I hope I didn't miss any.

I thought about including Millie here too. But she was also already included in my other discussion post and I still don't know if she is canonically Bisexual of if that is just a headcannon so I didn't put her here.

I'm just gonna say that i don't have a problem with queer men being sexual (or any queer person in that regard). But it's pretty much every one of her queer male characters. This is especially bad when a lot of the relationships are toxic as well.

I just think too many characters fit stereotypes and to me that isn't good queer representation. If you like the depiction of queer characters in HH or HB that's good for you and you don't have to agree with me. But you also can't really deny a lot of this stuff and you can't expect others to just be fine with bland, hurtful and sometimes even toxic representation like there is in these shows.

#hazbin hotel #hazbin hotel criticism #vivzepop critical #hazbin hotel critical #hazbin hotel critique #vivziepop #helluva boss #helluva boss critical #helluva boss critique #helluva boss criticism #queer representation #queer rep in media

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charcubed · 1 year ago

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I NEEEED people—especially those with unfathomably large platforms???—to start doing just a tiny bit of internal evaluation before they log onto a blue website and say “I don’t want these queer characters to fuck in canon” or “I’d be fine if these characters never kissed again” or whatever.

This is a post about Good Omens and the prospect of Aziraphale and Crowley potentially having sex in season 3. It's a response to a tweet that I'm crossposting, but let it be known the above statement and this topic applies broadly across multiple fandoms too.

But anyway, in regards to Good Omens specifically:

I am seeing this take that essentially boils down to "Canon has now made it clear that these characters want to have sex with each other through subtext (i.e. Aziraphale and the ox), but I don’t want that to reach narrative completion because the idea of them having sex makes me uncomfortable or isn’t my personal preference” and it is, to put it mildly and delicately, A Very Bad Take.

This is rhetorical (and I do not expect or particularly want an answer), but: explain to me how and why queer characters who are unavoidably visibly queer (aka 2 "man-shaped beings") fucking on screen wouldn’t be a net positive, especially when you can indicate how canon has set it up.

Presumably, some people say things like this because ~they want to see them as visibly ace.~ Okay. But by some of these people’s own admission, there IS more evidence in canon now to indicate these characters crave sex with each other (vs arguing otherwise)... yet people would rather that be ignored/erased all for the sake of them feeling comfortable or feeling better about what canon shows or doesn’t show explicitly??

I’m sorry, but—speaking as an ace person, to be clear—your personal preferences for the story shouldn’t / don’t affect anything here. There’s too much in this.

Yeah, I understand on a personal level not having “representation.” I almost never see myself or my unique experiences and identity reflected in stories. And yet, I also understand that that doesn’t change any story or the world in which we live. Things like this are not said in a vacuum.

Any queer characters having sex on screen IS a net positive. It is rare and impactful, and openly calling for or hoping for otherwise when canon points to its potential is a detrimental alliance with purity culture, whether intentionally or accidentally. Because we live in a Goddamn society!

Who knows (other than Neil Gaiman) whether Aziraphale and Crowley ARE going to fuck on international TV. None of us do! But the subtext right now blatantly says they’re starving for it. And you don’t have to like the prospect of that, but honestly? We SHOULD get to see it play out. There’s no truly legitimate reason we shouldn’t ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Whether you "prefer" it or not.

And my ultimate hot take is… if someone balks at the idea of that or doesn’t understand the importance of it, despite even seeing the subtext… then they should perhaps unpack that? Just a thought.

Truly the way fandoms are managing to hit either “subtext doesn’t count :/ ” or “let’s keep it to subtext so it’s ‘open to interpretation’ :) ” nowadays depending on what corner one visits is MADDENING. Whiplash-inducing. Surreal. And so much nonsense you can’t pick where to start.

So! I do genuinely hope I'm not kicking off discourse but I felt this Needed To Be Said (and on more than one site). Because posts like “even if they never kiss again, we’ve won <3 “ make me want to be like…

These characters are YEARNING. Do not doom them and us to it. For once, we can reach for the stars and maybe–against all odds–pull them down. Embrace it!

---

[Update: after more discourse has occurred, I have somewhat elaborated on this further, from the POV of the significance of the queer themes in Good Omens and more specifically how they center illicit pleasure/desire]

#good omens #good omens season 2 #good omens spoilers #good omens season 3 #neil gaiman #aziracrow #ineffeble husbands #I'm OVER ITTTT.#this is the delicate version of this rant. trust me. I tried to keep it chill for the sake of posting on main #char writes things #PS adding some brief tags now that the discourse has Escalated:#Mr Gaiman can be pedantic on the internet and pretend by omission he's never heard of subtext all he wants.#it's not what his story is saying and I do actually think he DOES know how to do stories. so. love & light to whatever his deal is.#(what I mean: do not come into my house & try to say 'neil said the ox scene isn't sexual.' inaccurate + that's a whole suitcase to unpack)#(I have now written about All That at length elsewhere with exasperation but it doesn't need to be linked in this post lol.)

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marlopawsome · 5 months ago

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BRIDGERTON SEASON 3 SPOILER ‼️‼️

MY GOD CAN YOU FUCKING STOP CALL PEOPLE HOMOPHOBIC OR QUEERPHOBIC who are skeptical because of the genderswap of Michael??

1. The Writers made us doubt Francesca love for John with the kiss at the wedding and her „I forgot my name“ when meeting Michaela

In the books there is no doubt Fran and John love each other over the moon, they enjoy themselves emotional and physical

Michael falls first, not Francesca, Franny loves Michael as a friend and then with her overcoming her grief she starts to love him in a romantic way

Now we have a she’s married to John whom she clearly likes but we now doubt if it’s real love like Violet tried to convince her for 3 episodes and clearly she’s attracted to Michaela

So it’s not the Michaela is a woman it’s the whole do Fran really LOVE John or is it just mutual likeness? And why would they erase this love they had? They didn’t need to do that! They could have sticked to the book and let Fran fall in love with Michaela after John’s death

2. Michaels whole conflict was based of his GUILT taking EVERYTHING from John

Beginning from his titles and land, Michael never wanted that or the commitment coming with a title

We now had three seasons and Queen Charlotte with whole lot of conflict where WOMAN were on the brink of loosing everything because they could not inherit the title and lands

So after he inherits everything he really struggles to be around Fran, to be true to his feelings because he’s thinking „I am not taking the last thing John had from him!!“

How would that now go with a female Michaela?

As I said the SHOW showed us clearly no female could inherit land or titles

Damn it even was a crucial part in season 2 & 3 with the feaheringtons and changing that would made all the hardships Portia going through invalid

Also they could have just scrapped the Mondrichs/Lord Kent Plot altogether then

So again: it’s nothing to do with Fran should not love a woman BUT with the In-Universe Canon and how that can work out with one of Michael’s biggest inner conflicts? People are not AGAINST it they’re are just wondering how this could work out?

Edit: I see a Eloise and Michaela are going to get woman’s the right to inherit land and titles plot and Fran has a daughter of John but would loose everything and Michaela wants to save her (although Fran has always her family in London)

3. Francesca wants to be a mother more then everything

And yes, wlw couples struggle a lot with getting pregnant and getting kids too

But In the books Francesca struggles to concieve, and after John’s death she miscarried

We don’t have a lot of screentime for this kind of life and struggles, besides in Queen Charlotte, and it would be cruel to remove this

Francesca wants to be a mother so bad and although adoption is a way (but I wasn’t shown in 4 seasons so it would be strange to just pop up in Frans story) or sperm donor (which I don’t think Fran would be compatible for) again it clashes with what the show runners established in the In-Universe Canon.

Surely they can implement that now, it would have just been better to build that up! Not a sudden „it’s possible now“

So the genderchange brings two major plotquestions for the characters and the way the show did it invalidates Frans Love to John

ALSO! That feels so much like forced queerness! We love and want and need queer representation! But we deserve good story’s, nice build up and true feelings!!

In the end we have to wait how the show runners execute the plot now, and what they gonna do, how the actors work etc and can’t say if it will fail or not

But to be critical and question the decision because of how the show handled a lot of topics crucial for the John/Fran/Michael Plot does not make one homophobic or queerphobic.

#bridgerton #bridgerton spoilers #bridgerton season 3 #francesca bridgerton #michael stirling #john stirling

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kinghijinx22 · 5 months ago

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Top 5 queer ships from video games

HELLO my fellow queers! Just in time for the end of Pride Month I have decided to write about my top 5 queer canon ships from video games because I thought it would be a cool thing to do for the occasion, because I play the video games and am obviously very queer myself. This is also sort of a post to go along with the top 5 pansexual characters that I did last year as well. So to begin our list at number 5-

5. Alex Chen and Steph Gingrich, Chengrich from Life is Strange True Colors- Starting off with a ship not from a game I've played myself but I've seen plenty of lets plays of which is something I can say about the whole Life is Strange series, Alex Chen and Steph Gingrich from True Colors are a couple of dorky sapphics with a really cute relationship. The best in Life is Strange in my opinion, while the series has always been known for having good queer representation, I personally was not as impressed as others with the vagueness and burying of gays that LiS 1 and Before the Storm did, and while LiS 2 is better with Sean and Finn in it's explicitness, they make Finn such an asshole. Canon bisexual protagonist Alex Chen of True Colors is the most likeable protagonist in the series in my opinion, and Steph Gingrich who is lesbian, is easily the best love interest. Better then Ryan from the same game in my opinion, Alex and Steph's relationship is well developed throughout the game and the 2 of them have some really heart warming moments, especially that kiss when Alex goes upstairs to see Steph during that town event. Alex seeing the blue emotions around Steph before they kiss because she's worried about Alex not kissing her, and then she does and they explode with the yellow light of happiness. And then in the endings, Steph either settles down with Alex or Alex who is also a musician joins Steph's band and they go on tour together which is very romantic as well. Best LiS couple easy for me.

4. Bayonetta and Jeanne, BayoJeanne from Bayonetta- So now we jump into games that I have played myself with BayoJeanne from Bayonetta, specifically their relationship from Bayonetta 1 and 2 because Bayonetta 3 fucked it to ship Bayo with that loser Luka instead. Bayonetta and Jeanne though were badass power couple of witches in the first 2 game. Childhood friends, to lovers, to rivals, to lovers again, what a wild ride for a relationship to go through as well but they end up being so sweet together. To explain, in Bayonetta 1 Bayo has lost her memories and Jeanne is brainwashed by Bayo's evil sage father Balder so Jeanne as another powerful witch is Bayo's rival throughout the game and it is heartbreaking, fighting your lover who you don't even remember. They both get their memories back by the end of the game though, and Jeanne rescues her girlfriend Bayo from the goddess Jubileus so she can punch her into the sun. Bayonetta 1 has some strong BayoJeanne moments but Bayonetta 2 goes all in with their relationship, with Bayo going on a romantic rescue mission to save her girlfriend from the demon Alarune, journeying through literal heaven and hell to do so. That file that you can pick up in Bayonetta 2 that talks about someone going through hell to find their lover, and then that scene where Bayo wakes up Jeanne after rescuing her from Alarune is great. "What do you need a wake up kiss or something?" referencing some developer art that shows their homelife, where Bayo has to wake up Jeanne for work. Love this badass witchy power couple, the sapphic aunts who always spoil the nephews with Christmas gifts.

3. Jala and Tyler, Jyler? from Thirsty Suitors- who I don't believe have an actual ship name until I just made one up because Thirsty Suitors is so underrated that it's fandom is almost nonexistent? Seriously this game is really good and I wish Tumblr had more fan art for it, especially Jala and Tyler fan art because they very quickly have become one of my all time favorite couples in anything. The most recent addition to this list for me, I only just played Thirsty Suitors for Pride Month and while protagonist and biggest bisexual disaster I've even seen Jala has 7 exes in total, 6 of which you need to confront throughout the game, Tyler has been the most important person in Jala's life. Her childhood friend who she has been on and off with romantically, but the girl who was always by her side and who she would always come back to. I also want to say that, it's mentioned that Jala was also by Tyler's side and helped her while she was transitioning which is really beautiful and I think it's cool that a trans girl is the main love interest of this story. Jala and Tyler have a very messy but special relationship, and after Jala is able to reconcile with Tyler after how much she had let her down in the past, it's implied that they do end up back together and in a fully committed relationship by the end of the story through some art depicting their future together which is good. I just need to mention that Thirsty Suitors is a super charming and delightfully queer game that handles it's characters and themes very well and I highly recommend it. It's a game that celebrates queerness while also allowing it's characters to be heavily flawed and their relationships very messy, as seen with even Jala and Tyler.

2. Susie and Noelle, Suselle from Deltarune- Toby Fox has been a very supportive queer ally and with Undertale and Deltrune, his games have plenty of great queer representation. But while Undyne and Alphys from Undertale are ok, I honestly don't really like Alphys specifically and personally think Susie and Noelle from Deltarune are the much superior sapphic ship. Because both Susie and Noelle are both great characters and absolute cuties who deserve to be happy together! A super adorable story of blossoming young love and self discovery, dorky lesbian deer girl Noelle is head over hooves in love with the cool dinosaur girl from her school Susie. And while Susie does start off as a bully in chapter 1, it becomes clear that she has a lot of her own personal stuff that she's working through that is heavily implied to be from her home life but by the end of chapter 1 she makes some good friends in Kris, Ralsei and Lancer who actually understand her and she grows as a person. While she doesn't really interact Noelle with chapter 1, you do find out as Kris that Noelle has feelings for Susie when she asks them for more information on her. And it's chapter 2 that REALLY develops Susie and Noelle's relationship and gives them a lot of cute moments together, because Noelle actually joins Susie and Kris in going to the Dark World on their adventures this time. And through chapter 2, Susie and Noelle's relationship is developed incredibly well with all of Noelle's adorable blushing and freaking out around the girl that she loves, until the beautiful scene where Susie gets to rescue Noelle from being captured by Queen and they escape on a heart covered Ferris wheel of all things which gives them an incredibly sweet moment together that always makes me cry. Just seeing them these adorable young queer girls being awkward and falling in love for the first time is just so adorable and funny in the best way. And then afterwards, the thing that actually gives Noelle her courage to stand up to Queen is saving the love of her life Susie! AAAAAH I LOVE THEM AND THEY ARE PERFECT FOR EACHOTHER!!!! The only caveat is that Deltarune isn't finished yet and Susie and Noelle technically aren't together yet? But it's very obvious that their relationship is something that is being built towards and I am very excited to see how it develops in future chapters, what we've gotten already has been great though and has given us so many cute moments for Suselle.

Gregg and Angus, Grangus from Night in the Woods- The only MLM ship on this list because there is a distressing lack of MLM relationships in video games compared to there actually being a decent amount of WLW, especially with main characters. But Gregg and Angus are my overall favorite romantic relationship in all of video games. Night in the Woods is another game with some great queer representation, including it's main character Mae who is canonically pansexual which delighted me to find out as someone who is pan and she made it to the top of my Pan characters list from last year. But she doesn't get much of a romance besides meeting a girl that she has feelings for at a party that doesn't lead to much. Her best friend Gregg and his boyfriend Angus though, are also both main characters and their relationship actually gets a lot attention and development and it's handled beautifully. Their experiences accurately represent what it's like living as an openly gay couple in a small and not so understanding small town. Especially as they were the only queer people living there while Mae was away at college. A small town that also doesn't really have much going on, and they both want to move away where they can live a happy life together in a town where they will be supported and accepted more, where they can maybe meet other queer friends. It's an incredibly sweet and relatable story, and the 2 boys work their butts off at their jobs to make their dream of living that life together a reality. Which is why Mae's coming back home and bringing out the chaotic side of her best friend Gregg does bring some tension to their relationship, but she eventually realizes her mistakes and learns that she has to let them go. Gregg and Angus's relationship becomes even more sweet when you learn more about how they met, how Angus had a horrible upbringing with violently homophobic parents who didn't accept him, but then Gregg came into his life and saved him. And then also that scene where Mae talks to Gregg and he's worried that he isn't good enough for his boyfriend and Mae has to give him and uplifting talk. They just mean so much to eachother and they really bring the best out of eachother as well, with Gregg helping his shy boyfriend to come out of his shell a bit more, and Angus helping reel in his hyperactive boyfriend from getting a bit too wild. Gregg and Angus are so sweet and supportive of eachother, a beautifully written queer couple and my favorite ship from any video game.

But anyway, I hope all my fellow queers had a safe and happy Pride Month! And also that you enjoyed reading my list, I would recommend all the games that these ships are from to people. Thank you for reading and remember to stay proud of who you are all year round because no matter your sexuality, gender, what pronouns you go by, whether your closeted or not, you deserve all the love and respect and fuck any bigot who thinks they can tell you otherwise.

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shaunashipman · 7 months ago

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hi cleo, I've been reading a lot of your asks and posts and I'm not the last anon but also new to the fandom and just a little curious as to why you don't like buddie as a ship? you don't owe this a response and please don't feel the need to justify. I'm just surprised to see a rise in buddie-antis in a fandom that seemed only to love them from an outsider perspective until tommy came into the picture.

hi nonny

here's the thing. i don't dislike buddie as a ship. like oliver said, i get it, i see it. the actors have great chemistry, they've got a good dynamic, the family unit, it's all there. i've reblogged buddie edits and i will continue to do so, i've read buddie fanfic and probably will again at some point, interests vary over time. they are indeed a great ship.

i'd say a lot of bucktommy shippers, maybe even most, if they were buddie shippers before, or just enjoyed their dynamic, they probably still do. i still do.

i just don't think all my ships have to go canon, and in fact some i'd prefer if they didn't.

my problem is with a small subset of fans who insist that, not only will buddie most definitely going canon, but the show and the actors are sending secret messages and hints that this is going to happen. and if you don't think they're going canon, or disagree with their "theories", you are a bad fan and don't deserve the show.

my problem is with these fans, who, after screaming about how iconic buddie would be "for the representation", are now shitting on a character's canon bisexual journey, because it's not happening with the person they wanted it to. these same fans, who are calling other buddie shippers traitors for enjoying the two ships, who are calling me and other queer fans fetishists for enjoying this canon representation that we rarely get, who are actively wishing for biphobic and homophobic storylines, who are sending very offensive messages accusing actors in the show of being violent and homophobic just because they are getting in the way of their ship

so yeah, i am not anti-buddie. i am just anti this small group of fans, who insist on screaming the loudest

#cleo gets mail #anonymous #911 #911 critical #anti buddie #except not really #but #to be safe #to clarify my use of the anti tag #i use it on anything that might be perceived as negative towards the ship #even if like in this case it's not really that #out of respect for my followers who like buddie and just want to enjoy the show without all this fandom wank clouding their dash

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utilitycaster · 1 year ago

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A few recent books I've read and disliked led me to this conclusion but it feels like there's been this switch over time with queer stories. It used to be that queer relationships (or queerness in general) had to be Show Don't Tell because, well, you could not make them textual! So you get, for example, shows like Legend of Korra, or Xena: Warrior Princess, where you have women who are clearly devoted to each other to a degree that goes beyond mere friendship, and a ton of effort and care is put into that depiction because they can't actually be shown in an explicitly stated relationship. And as a result, these relationships, while they never receive confirmation in the show, are rich and complex.

Now not only is it much easier to make explicitly queer stories outside of niche areas; it's even popular (and, cynically, a marketing tactic). The problem is I've run into a bunch of stories that are marketed very clearly as A Queer Story that forget to like...be a story, or show me why these characters should be in a relationship. It's All Tell No Show: I'm told that the characters are gay and are in a relationship, but no work is done to actually explain why I should care about this beyond "well they are gay and in a gay relationship."

I'm not going to rehash what I discussed here, but Baru Cormorant is an example of those books where I'm given no real reason to care. The protagonist is a lesbian but the prose reads like a phone book. On the other hand, while Starless has a queer disabled woman as a one of the two protagonists, it also provides her with traits other than "queer, disabled, woman, important" and grants her a rich interiority (even though the story is told entirely from the first person point of view of the other protagonist.)

And the thing about the good examples in that link (Starless, Teixcalaan): they show and tell. It's both explicit that these are queer stories with a canon romantic relationship, but the little moments that make up the tapestry of a relationship are given the time that moments in a subtextual - or frankly, even a queerbaiting work are. That's the real tragedy; for queerbaiting to work, you have to actually make the relationship compelling enough for people follow it until you pull the rug out from under them; whereas you can slap a cold fish kiss on a cold fish queer relationship and technically you are Better because it was Explicit Representation even though everything about it was poorly constructed. I would rather have an lazy and shoddy explicit relationship than queerbait just on principle; but honestly I'd rather have a good story that does neither.

One of my more cynical interpretations of this is that writers are either intentionally or inadvertently taking advantage of the legacy of the Show Don't Tell era of queer coding to place the burden of those small moments on the audience. They know that people looking for queer relationships in fiction are used to having to dig for moments and subtext; but instead of providing that subtext, they set up the clunky text and assume the subtext to support it will emerge from the fandom. Or perhaps, more generously, especially for younger queer writers, they are just so used to having to provide that work themselves that they forget they are doing the writing and are able to (and should) layer subtext and text together and weave something actually good.

Either way, it's this that's led to the "Lesbian necromancers in space, need I say more"* era of recommendations, taglines, and writing, in which explicit representation is, if not plentiful, at least available; but a worrying amount of it forgets to actually write realized characters or a relationship with chemistry or a plot that makes sense.

I should also note: there's obviously a TON of straight romances and books that range from mediocre to abominable. I am under no circumstances arguing that "gayboring" media shouldn't exist. But while I don't think queer stories should be held to a higher standard, I don't think I should be obligated to settle for a lower standard either simply because it's gay. I know it's fraught, in that we're at risk of publishers and producers taking away the message "people hate this because it's gay" rather than "people hate this because it's poorly developed," but like...at the very least, could we recommend things in terms of "this is a great book that has a wonderful queer romance" and "this show is gay but it is also deeply mediocre, and if it weren't gay I wouldn't recommend it at all; do what you will with this information."

*I should note: I happen to like The Locked Tomb (of Lesbian Necromancers in Space fame) a lot! I know it's not for everyone; I know it can feel very gimmicky at times. But no matter how you feel, that tagline is DIRE and does a miserable job of representing the books. Like, that premise could suck, actually (and plenty of people find it does) if you're not sold on the mere fact that it's got lesbians, necromancy, or space in it. Worth noting that neither Starless nor the Teixcalaan books were heavily marketed as Queer Romance Fantasy/SF even though both very much are, which does further make me think this is a case of people writing good books that are queer, vs. people writing books with the intention to be on some New Queer SF list or, god forbid, Booktok.

#long post #the book i read this week (light from uncommon stars) was also like. really hit or miss #the locus review of it is spot on. like. i think one of the characters' stories is fantastic but i think it's afraid to have any bite.#also this was out of scope for this post but like. i have recommended terra ignota before #and like. it is saying THE MOST about Gender since Le Guin or Butler imo. but it's NOT marketed as queer at all #and part of that is that it's really not capable to read it as a romance (certainly not a happy one) despite there being queer pairs in it

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mazzystar24 · 8 months ago

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i have so many mixed emotions, like i am fucking ECSTATIC over bi buck being canon but at the same time im feeling kinda deflated that they tried to shoehorn bucktommy in

like i genuinely think buck deserves so much better than tommy, and im not saying he needs to end up with eddie next episode, like it needs to be realistic

im just afraid they are going to go “oh buck is with tommy now and we are just gonna solidify eddie as his supportive bestie”

which feels so just wrong to me because of everything that has been built up over the years because this recontextualizes EVERYTHING that buck and eddie have. but im afraid they will just retcon all of that as a way to force bucktommy onto us because it’s easier than making buddie canon

idk this episode simultaneously made me so happy from a representation standpoint but it makes me so upset as someone who has shipped buddie for years because i have so much anxiety that this won’t lead to buddie like people are hoping

(anyway i love oliver stark with my whole heart and i am so happy that buck is finally getting his canon bisexual storyline, im just kinda disappointed that its with tommy of all people)

My personal opinion on it is that they’ve more or less established that the bucktommy thing is a brief little think on bucks journey as a bi man

You are absolutely valid in being happy to get bi buck and a little deflated to get bucktommy those things aren’t mutually exclusive!!

I’m with you there with being a little disheartened that we didn’t get the same impact if they’d had buddie canon without the inbetween man so to speak but I can see why they did it this way

Just like you can be happy to see the buck Tommy kiss and still ship buddie!!! (Which is kinda unrelated but I’ve seen some TAKES and I wholeheartedly disagree with because I’m feeling ALL those at once)

Overall tho I think that I’ve said this before the ep aired and I’m even more assured now that bi buck no matter what form it’s in IS GOOD NEWS for us on the buddie front

Because if they have the willingness to do that and also if they see how well responses are and how good ratings stay from bi buck then buddie is just around the corner and I wholeheartedly believe that

Like it makes no sense to make either buck or Eddie’s queer without setting the path for buddie canon I also said this before but it’s the same as the if one of them were a woman argument like idk if I’m making sense but I’m feeling VERY optimistic from this episode even if it isn’t perfect and we do get more messing around and tiptoeing and confusion🫡

#911 #buddie #evan buckley #eddie diaz #911 fox #evan buck buckley #911 abc #911onfox #buckley diaz family #911 spoilers #asks open #send asks #answered asks #asks

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funnylovepuppis · 7 months ago

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I should probably shut up about it because there is so many other people talking about it. But I can't stay silent about it. I can't stress enough how upset and uncomfortable I am with being here in buddie fandom right now.

As a bisexual myself, I agree with the importance of its representation in mainstream media. Especially when it comes to male characters, who are really low in static speaking. We can all agree on this, and hopefully, we can all see it. I'm really thrilled about Bi Buck's journey and about finding his happiness. He's not fixed, he just found out about his other sides he never knew they were existed before. As @m3r1m4r5u333 said in their post, bisexuality is not a personality, just a small piece in whatever color that is a part of many more pieces of soul. Buck, like many real-life people, is trying to figure out himself. I honestly don't think that self-journey will ever stop, not just on sexuality but on many other things. That's how living is, right? So yes, it's very exciting and kind of carefree for him, and I'm truly happy. He deserves it big time after all that he has been through. And I really think that Tommy is genuinely the right person for him at the moment.

But aside from me being bi, I'm also demisexual. Honestly it's more than that for me, because besides the need for emotional connection before sexual intimacy, I need some degrees of emotional connection before even getting into dating. So as you can see, I'm very much attached to Buck and Eddie relationship. I'm mostly finding myself a lot in Eddie's character. I do feel a lot of pressure on starting to date someone nowadays. And I'd probably be single for a long time because that's kinda how how people go to date. You meet someone you like and interested to explore the romantic dynamic and that someone is a completely stranger to you so it's kind of scary and stressful.. I'd rather be someone's friend and then lover..

Yes, best friends have a different kind of love than just two friends. That doesn't necessarily mean that it must have a romance subtext or under the surface, especially when it comes to two people of the same gender. And sure, all the things related to buddie are open to interpretations and any ways that people who see it differently are pretty legit.

We can argue about why things are the way they are. I can acknowledge that Eddie is not in the same emotional place as Buck, and it can be taking a long process for him, if at all, to realize his own feelings about himself and Buck. But at the same time, I can say that although it seems like Buck and Eddie communicate in a very healthy way, there's a sense of underground miscommunication that leaves both of them scared to make a move or talk about their deep feelings and observations on their own relationship. Because what they have is great, so why ruin it for a good change, right? And there is lots of evidence that saying buddie are partially soulmates. Having back from each other. Their reactions are when the other one is in a dangerous situation, such as the firetruck, the wall, the shooting, and the lighting strike. The will. The family moments of Buckley-Diaz. Going to each other's home as a safe place. The teasing from surrounding people about them. The jealousy. Their parallels to other couples on the show/

I guess I'm trying to say to the people who are feeling like some people are not very happy about Bucktommy because they are not appreciative of the new queer couple or the very fact that it's B-Buck canon. I understand the need for bi-representations and am happy to see that. It seems very worth the long wait for this. And yet, I want to say, give buddie stans time, including me. Because our feelings are legitimate and matter, too. It may come as rude or not excited about Bucktommy, but I think this is coming from being afraid and uncomfortable with how quickly many people from the fandom are shifting from Buddie to Bucktommy, even if they still believe in Buddie Endgame. Give us time to fall in love with this couple and connect with them. Give us time to warm up for them. Give us time because we have been attached to Buddie for 5 long years. We have been memorizing all of the episodes, plots, and quotes. Writing for 5 years, Buddie fics. Making beautiful gifsets and fan art.

Thank you for reading this if you have reached this far. 🩷

#buddie #bucktommy

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beauspot · 1 year ago

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Loki Matters a Lot to Me *Long Post*

If you go on my page you’ll see that I’ve never posted about the Loki show or Lokius before so you might be wondering why now that the show is (probably) over? I always liked this show, and I considered myself a fan but coming out of it I wasn’t shipping anyone.

Don’t get me wrong I enjoyed the dynamic Loki and Mobius had but I was just happy to have Loki alive so I savored that. Also I sensed some history with Mobius and Ravonna which I still think exists. I found all of the characters interesting. That includes this season but something about season 2 was different for me and I couldn’t figure out why.

Why did this show affect me so much? Why did this second season affect me so much? And particularly why did this ship, Lokius, affect me so much?

To understand where I'm coming from you should probably understand that first of all I am queer and even before I knew I was queer I had a want for queer representation. For me oddly enough it started with Owen Wilson in Night at the Museum. Jedtavius was a pairing I didn't even realized I shipped til I was older. The enemies to lovers thing was so cute and it pretty much got confirmed in the last movie.

(Just inconspicuously having your cowboy character quote Brokeback Mountain no big deal.)

I enjoy a good ship. As I got older however I began to crave real queer representation and I was lucky enough to find it in places like Steven Universe

And Adventure TIme

Then as I reached my mid to late teens I was able to see films like Brokeback, But I'm a Cheerleader, First Girl I Loved, The Miseducation of Cameron Post etc. Seeing these made me feel more secure in my sexuality.

Of course along the way I got dragged into non canon ships some of which were queerbait like Stucky or even worse, Stormpilot/Finnpoe.

The malicious part about all of these ships is the teams behind them waving these pairings out in front of people like a dog with a bone, hoping to draw them in to get their money knowing they had no intention of following through.

And I have become disillusioned with that. I have also become annoyed with fans of straight ships that oppose those queer ships acting like we're reaching.

I bring this up because there is a certain segment of sylkis(not all) and on a broader scale fans of straight ships that have this sense of persecution because fans of a queer pairing don't like their ship. It's weird and I am tempted to say it stems from homophobia. If you simply don't enjoy a ship that's fine. There are queer ships I despise, but try and assess where that hatred comes from.

There is a language that conveys romance and it seems like only when there is a minority involved do you guys become unable to understand it. This is an issue within most fandoms when it comes to not only sexuality but race in popular ships. For example, The Bear fandom in regards to Chef's Kiss, but I digress.

When a character feels the need to constantly touch another character that signals something, when a character fixes themselves so they look nice before they see another character that signals something. The way they talk, the way they act, how they are with and without one another says A LOT.

So why is it when we point these things out we get called delusional? Why do I feel like I'm going crazy every time I speak with someone about a queer ship? And why do I always feel the need to justify it?

Straight, white, pairings never have to justify their existence. They just are. Sylvie and Loki can fight, yell at one another, hurt one another, literally be the same fucking person and people will find that ok, but suddenly when people see Loki fixing himself before he meets Mobius we can't see love in that(you’re telling me this isn’t how someone acts when they see their crush unexpectedly)? We can't see loss in Mobius when he can't even do his job anymore now that Loki is gone? We can't grieve what could have been even if we find Loki as the God of Stories cool?

Why?

Mobius is the first person in probably thousands of years to tell Loki he’s not evil and he can be good if he chooses to be. We see how much this means to him. From this point on Loki is attached to Mobius like a puppy. Mobius becomes his person. I find something so refreshing about Mobius calling Loki out but then also offering him a path to redemption. He doesn’t let Loki slide, because he cares about him enough to know he can be better and Loki deserves to be better for himself.

So I was bothered by the way the finale was set up. I know they have the conversation about “the burden of glorious purpose” and often I am honestly a supporter of not everyone gets a happy ending even if they “deserve” it in a storytelling sense. I find the tragedy in that intriguing, but this didn’t feel good to me on a personal level. I didn’t walk away from the finale feeling sad but fulfilled, I walked away from it feeling miserable and empty. And I recognize that I attach myself to characters more than the general populace but I don’t really care? This hurt.

Loki wanted nothing more than for somebody to be there with him, to be for him, to love him and instead he ends up alone. Mobius ends up back in his timeline but he can't go back to his life. A version of him is already there and our Mobius doesn't even remember his children. Mobius doesn't smile at the end because he isn't happy. He's alone. They are alone and realistically there's a high chance these versions of them will never see each other again.

Does Sylvie seem bothered by that? No. She's ready to go live her life. And there’s nothing wrong with that, she took the gift Loki gave to her but Mobius is clearly, deeply hurt by Loki being gone. Because they found purpose in each other. In the order and chaos.

Having watched Good Omens and Our Flag Means Death season 2(along with the movie Bottoms starring Ayo Edebiri which everyone should watch 😁) in the same year I have become quite used to seeing queer rep in my mainstream shows. As the years have passed more and more queer characters are able to take center stage. So even though I knew Disney's track record I still held out hope because even the writer and composer saw the potential in Lokius.

Tom and Owen did too somewhat, but at the end of the day actors don't write the shows.

I think what bothers me most is that Loki is the first queer character in the MCU, we've seen him struggle and grow and learn to love and finally last season his queerness was made explicit (more than in Thor Ragnarok where he like fucked the Grandmaster or something). And they immediately paired him off with a version of himself.

Loki isn't gay so I'm not saying he had to end up with a man or anything you can be queer and end up with someone who is a gender different than yours my issue is a broader one which is, this story wasn't made to validate bi/pan people who date the opposite sex or whatever it was made to close Loki off to any other possibilities. One of those being Mobius.

Rewatching season 1 this decision is exacerbated because there are moments where they could have had him flirt with a man like when he was D.B. Cooper and boom we have on screen rep, but they decided “nah let’s just have him say it one time and then never acknowledge it again.” Again I want to reiterate, you can be queer and not be in a same gender relationship, but this is a television character. We don’t know their innermost thoughts like we’re reading a book we have to take them at their actions and we never got the opportunity for our first queer character to express that(at least in his own show because remember the grandmaster, but somehow that feels worse).

The executive producer recently came out and said Loki and Mobius were always meant to be platonic because they were trying to dismantle toxic masculinity by portraying “platonic male friendships”. A phrase I have grown to hate over the years because ALL WE EVER SEE ARE PLATONIC MALE FRIENDSHIPS. This is another parallel with issues I have with The Bear in which the cast and crew were like “why can’t women and men just be friends?” but only in reference to the black girl. Back to the topic at hand though.

Have you ever met a queer person who acknowledges they’re queer once and then never talks about it again? Especially someone with as much showmanship as Loki? Does that make sense to anybody? Even if he ultimately ended up with Sylvie(which I wouldn’t have liked but I digress) that would have been enough for me.

But instead we had this troubled character give up everything and everyone they love to sit on a throne they didn’t even want so that their friends could have a choice. So that they could have a life. And again I can find beauty in that, but that doesn’t mean I have to like it. And I won’t pretend I do.

🥀End of Post🥀

sidenote ouroboros is so autistic tell me i’m wrong. he’s literally an autistic with no experience of ableism just pure autistic sunshine.

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everythingendsbutcomicsr4ever · 1 year ago

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((This originally comes as my response to someone saying that ppl don’t like The Sun and The Star because it’s a middle school book and we were expecting the series to grow along with us.))

Valid point I keep finding BUT I recently read the PJO series again in preparation for TSATS and those books still slap!! They’re so good even tho I’m reading them as an adult even though they're meant for kids. (Also I recently read ToA because of course I’m gonna keep reading Rick’s middle school books until the day I die or they stop coming out lol. And that series while more goofy at points I still really liked) I also read one of Mark Oshiro's other books in prep for this book because I was excited for The Sun and Star to be released and I just COULD NOT get through it 😭 the writing was just giving me the ick and the characters where all kind of samie like that sassy talking wit. Which was a bummer because I liked the premise of the book “Anger is a Gift”, which was about underfunded schools mainly facing ppl of color and immigrants which leads to the school-to-prison pipeline because of the defunct way America funds public schools that keeps the poor poor and the rich getting richer & it was ACAB & had a lot of queer representation & etc. So I thought I’d really like it but I just couldn’t get through it because of the writing and I noticed this same writing style showing up in TSATS. Just because it’s for kids doesn’t excuse it from being bad. Like early Pixar and Studio Ghibli is still so good to watch back again and my 50+ yrs old parents like it. Book examples would be Harry Potter (screw JK Rowling tho fr) & the The Little Prince

Not to bash on ppl who say this is the main reason ppl don’t like the book but it feels like a straw man argument to say that the books not growing with us is the main reason ppl didnt like it. All tho I’m sure ppl have argued this but that is definitely their fault because Rick is staying in middle-grade fiction forever like that’s his thing! Why would ppl expect different 🤣 You think he wants to write a sex scene?! LMAO

(Here’s my review, it’s unhinged and not great because I should be doing productive stuff but am distracted until I can at least write down some of my thoughts on my disappointing experience)

Here are some things I didn’t like about it from a piece of art standpoint:

The pacing was bad

This book was filled with the first thing they teach you about writing which is: SHOW don’t TELL

It made me not ship Solangelo surprisingly like how??! I used to love Solangelo but I think this mainly is because of the collective consciousness of the fandom and because we wanted Nico to find happiness with someone. But if you really look back on their moments canonically from the books Will is a background character (who honestly kind of gaslights Nico by invalidating that ppl treated him differently as a son of Hades and that he didn't feel welcome at camp) and they kind of have a quick meet cute in the last book of The Last Olympian. They get together without us seeing their developing relationship and we now know they’re dating in The Trials of Apollo where we see them briefly in the first book and then more so in the last book. Honestly, this canonically alone doesn’t give me enough information or examples to really know or care about their relationship in comparison to Percy and Annabeth who we get to see develop. So TSATS just kind of felt hollow to me because I’m supposed to believe they’d die for each other but I DONT KNOW THE POWER OF THEIR LOVE?? This could just be a first love fling type thing like I was never shown the depth of their romance just told constantly in the book how much they love each other so it just felt kind of empty and emotionally unsatisfying to me.

Solangelo's relationship has always been in the background and the fans are what really made it cause we love Nico and want him to be happy. So when Will and Nico are fighting in this book all I can think is that this is just their relationship period.

So the reason it made me not like Solangelo was because Tarturus was supposed to bring out the worst in them and strain their relationship but, like, I haven’t really seen much of their relationship so I don’t have a “control group” to base this off of. So Will just seemed rude when he was so mean about Nico’s underworld home and about Nico's darkness which I also didn’t understand wtf he was talking about because Nico has killed just as many monsters as other campers and what else was his darknes based off of. cause he’s emo/goth?? Cause he can raise the dead?? Like guys we’ve discussed this just because a character wears black doesn't automatically make them the bad guy. I honestly thought Will just thought that was hot and they’d have that normie x alt relationship dynamic (that meme of: My hot witch wife. Me doing whatever she wants) I thought THAT was Solangelo not Will constantly trying to bring this light side to him and trying to change him. I agree that Nico needs help w his trauma and PTSD and things like that but this felt like if someone tried to “cure” a goth person, like actually screw you

I thought Will was supposed to look like a normie but be secretly a freak (in a good way lol) / goth interest. Cause this is meee I thought I was like Will as someone who looks like a normie and has a sunny disposition but I have a lot of alt/goth interests and I would let an alt girlie step all over me tbh lol. So does he like Nico for who he is or not?!

This is more in line w what I thought their relationship was like lol:

The flashbacks and forwards I thought were ok even if they took you out of the story a bit but this device is supposed to be used for an IMPORTANT event not just as a way to quickly give context to their relationship and when we got to the scene this was taking place in I was like that’s it?? He what? fell down and is suffering from sun withdrawals and this is the book's big moment to justify jarring flashback scenes?

Mark Oshiro is not a fantasy adventure or horror writer and it shows. Maybe it’s just me but their depiction of Tarturus and the nightmare and the journey were just not up to snuff with good horror and fantasy books I’ve read. (And if your gonna say something about how it’s for kids then I raise you the book series “Goosbumps”) So as a genre in itself, it was just disappointing. It was mainly a relationship guidebook book but I didn’t really like that or feel like it was done well, It felt lectury and also idk if that's the genre middle schoolers really like?? 😅

It had too many references which really dates a book, A lot of professional writers say not to use too much slang or modernreferences (unless you’re trying to make a book expressly about a time period) because it really dates a book and doesn’t make a story feel timeless for future generations if you use too many references (this doesn’t include political novels tho which are very much based in that time when the events happening) Anyways for future writers keep this in mind, you don't need to keep in touch with the youth through urban dictionary you can just write about the emotions of being young or whatever. If you’ve tried to read a comic book aimed at teens from the 50s like I have you’ll realise how funny that is.

(Also the carebear reference that I didn’t even understand and I watched carebear as a kid & Lil Nas video which if this was written for kids that music video feels a bit inappropriate for them �� it had a reference both too old and too young for middle schoolers AND how in the world would 1930s born, dropped out of elementary school, can’t use the internet or phones half blood, NICO DI ANGELO know these references???)

The writings giving:

Bad alt representation. (This is my most out-of-pocket opinionated bullet point rant so if you don't agree that’s a-okay :D ) This could be a whole post in itself but although I know ppl joke about Nico as the Emo kid I would really like to get into how Nico is actually, or it would be cool, as having some goth subculture inclinations. And ppl probably think of Trad Goths with the whole makeup and teased hair look but it’s mainly a music-based subculture and/or it just has a different idealogy around the ideas of death and what is deemed beautiful while most ppl see it as ugly. (Like listen to “Gallows Dance” or the Bauhaus's “Bela Lugosi’s Dead” & “The Passion of Lovers”, to name songs off the top of my head) This bullet point is definitely MY OPINION and doesn’t contribute exactly to the book being bad but aren’t those songs the vibe of an underworld kid like Nico?? Embracing the darkness and dancing in graveyard vibes fr!! Anyways most alt subcultures and especially emo are seen as a phase in life that you grow out of and then become normal. This book just really gives the energy of being written by a normie who would be confused by the choices of alt ppl and just doesn’t get it because it’s not their personal interest, which isn’t exactly bad even tho I want more philosophy from Nico on the chillness and acceptance of death (all tho greek mythologies view on the afterlife sucks fr and THAT is a whole other post haha) So this isn’t exactly a problem BUT what gives me the ick is WILL NOT ACCEPTING THESE THINGS LIKE SIR STOP BASHING YOUR BOYFRIENDS LIFE!! Will asking Persephonee, “How do you love someone from the underworld” SHUT UP!! 😤

Will was useless and I know what they were trying to go for but if I had a girlfriend (oh I’m a lesbian btw just in case ppl think I’m going harder on this book more than the other books because I’m homophobic bruh I swear I’m not I’m only disappointed in the art itself, NOT the representation which I actually liked) and if I was super good at fighting and they weren’t, I’m sorry but I wouldn’t take them BECAUSE of my love for them. If they were going to be useless on a mission of such life-threatening danger and importance I WOULD NOT TAKE THEM OUT OF KINDNESS. Like skills in medicine and art and music are great and there’s of course nothing wrong w not being a badass fighter (lmao this is me and most readers) but then DONT GO TO SUPER HELL!!! Especially if you have something that makes you more pathetic than being a normal human in Tarturus, his suffering from no sunlight is out of pocket and just makes the story draggg and makes him seem boring and the story more boring. I know they were trying to go for a fish out of water storyline and roll reversal but I think it wasn’t done well enough and overall hurt the story

Also, I’ve heard ppl talk about how it would have been nice to have a book focus on their relationship while at Camp Half-Blood. Like maybe it takes place pre Jason's death and we can just see them living at camp. It’d be chill and we can actually see them as a couple & It would give the energy of readers wanting to go to camp half-blood again like how everyone wanted to go to Hogwarts. Cause we haven’t seen the camp as a fun home since the very early PJO books ;-; (this is just a fun idea I like and I think would have been more manageable for an author but this is FR my opinion on a fun book idea i’d like to read) ALSO this would have been so nostalgic for the older readers who have been here since middle school gobbling up this universe 😌

I know ppl get mad at ppl making fun of Will for being pathetic in tarturous. As saying he’s a child and no one can be happy and sunny and doing well 24/7 which is valid but that’s not really my argument. I like watching characters put in situations where we watch them bend against what we thought they were when put in a hard situation (the masochist in me lol jkjjk). But this I think didn’t work for me because as I’ve said before he’s mainly a background character at the end of one book thrown together with Nico and we as a fandom have mainly made him up. Also, Tarturus was just not as scary or adventure-filled as like any of the other missions from previous PJO books, It didn’t feel as trauma-inducing as everyone in the series tried to explain it as. (again show not tell from the book) Also, I would have liked to have seen Will cool at least once or one reason for me to like him with Nico but I saw him as pretty bland as a character

The writing style felt bad to me because of the show don’t tell part for example telling as “it made him sad and traumatized” when showing would be, you know, actually showing the scenes and this book just felt like 80% telling what they were feeling instead of letting the reader feel the emotions of the scene for themselves

I think that’s another thing I really didn’t like related to the Show Don't Tell. And another hallmark of bad writing was this book was really telling the audience how to feel instead of allowing the story to be powerful enough to do that for itself. This book follows a trend I’ve seen a lot in TV shows where everything kind of feels like detached irony from being on Twitter where you hear everyone’s opinions so the story is written as a wink and a nod like we know what we’re doing and we know what your thinking and how twitter will react to it. Like it’s hard to describe this trend I’ve mainly seen in TV shows and movies recently which always gives me the ick cause it doesn’t feel funny it feels like I’m in a response piece that is breaking the fourth wall and reminds me that I’m in reality watching or reading something instead of actually feeling like I’m in the story. It’s like pseudo-wittiness or something. Tell me if you guys feel this way about some modern tv shows or books, I can't be alone please 😭!!

The stupid toast scene at the end lol The book is like: Do you get it? Did you get it?? They’re opposites! And they attract!! We did the trope you guys!! Also, the stupid Darth Vader scene to start off the book 💀

This whole book made me cringe where I had to constantly get up walk around and lie on the floor before I could continue, only to constantly repeat the cycle 😅

Anyway, idk how to end this review/rant I just had such strong emotions I had to get out probably because I was so excited for this book to come out for like over a year and got back into PJO for a bit and read some of Mark Oshiro’s books and greek mythology and stuff, so I think it wasn’t just me reading any random bad book it disappointed me more that it was poor quality because I wanted to love it so much.

It did have some actually good parts, the troglodytes were cute … I can’t remember the other stuff but it was there I swear lol! If you enjoyed it I’m happy for you! Don’t let me ruin a book you like, you deserve to feel joy 😘💐

#the sun and the star spoilers #the sun and the star #tsats spoilers #tsats #anti tsats #pjo hoo toa tsats #pjoverse #pjo #tsats rant #nico di angelo #will solace #solangelo #solangelo book #percy jackson

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storiesofsvu · 7 months ago

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I don't understand why people are so insistent on pushing Emily's sexuality into being lesbian. Don't get me wrong, I also want Emily to have a girlfriend (though not JJ for me, sorry—I don't understand the urge to pair them together, especially when JJ has been married for 10 years with 2 kids). However, with Tara, for example, I'm all for it. I know the initial plan was for Emily to be a lesbian, but throughout Criminal Minds' 16 years, we've seen Emily love men too. Why couldn't Emily be bisexual? Why do people keep pushing her sexuality into something she might not be? And why do people love to tear apart a marriage for their ship? I'm all for it if JJ isn't married; I shipped them before JJ got pregnant and got serious with Will. But now, in my opinion, Jemily is as bad as Jeid, sorry. I really just want to understand; this isn't a hate ask

Bruh I am on the same page as you.

In early seasons, yeah I ship jemily hardcore, there’s so many little moments that linger and toe the line of platonic relationship. Then the writers/show runners knew what they could tease/bait into getting more views/people to come back week after week & continued to do it. (Aka 200/them hallucinating each other).

And that’s the exact same thing that AJ’s comment in that interview was… bait. Theyve already clairified that Will isnt dying/divorcing, the actor just isnt returning. To do jemily in s17 makes no sense, esp after the health scare in s16 that will came out on the good side of, if theyd killed him off in s16 then maaaaaaaaybe.

Now imo, Temily in s17+ does work. They used s16 to establish tara as queer, and then could easily use that progress of emily either saying that she’s bi or having her start to question her sexuality & bonding with tara over it until they realize feelings.

YES. THANK YOU. And yeah she was supposed to be a lesbian originally but there is no erasing the men she dated in canon, no matter how much people may hate them. (Imma get hate for this but i didnt mind Mendoza…) and THAT likely comes from such biphobia/bi erasure within the lgbt community, which is unfortunate. If emily was to be queer in s17+ she would either be bi, or be a late in life lesbian, realizing that maybe that’s why things never seemed to work out. Honestly, i’d prefer her to be bi. We dont have enough representation on television.

I guess i dont really have an answer, but those are my thoughts 😂😂

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zahri-melitor · 2 months ago

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DC Pride #1 (2021)

Right, I'm reviewing this, largely because 'how many decent stories are in this' is always a consideration for the various themed anthologies.

The ratio of interesting stories to formulaic 'did you notice we are queer?' stories is about right in this. It's one of the hazards of these type of titles: I want queer stories, and stories about queer people, but personally think DC should start keeping house a bit more strongly about how tokenistic some of the stories end up feeling. But this was the first up, and I wanted to see how it started before it evolved.

The Wrong Side of the Looking Glass is a Kate Kane piece that is as much about her identity as a twin as her identity as a lesbian, and how one affected the other. Enjoyable! Gorgeous art! It got a little bit 'there are so many of us who are queer' at the end but I could overlook that in favour of the extremely solid themes.

To the Victors is Midnighter and Extraño fighting a neo-Nazi vampire, and then Constantine picking up Extraño. It's very much a Midnighter story but the violence level could have been higher.

Try the Girl is Renee Montoya as the Question (so not set in exact 2021 canon then hey) where Renee has the hots for a Defence Attorney who's now running for Gotham City Council. Renee thinks she's been kidnapped, Valeria gets herself out of trouble, and Renee gets kissed on the mask (the lipstick stain is pretty funny tbh).

Another Word For a Truck To Move Your Furniture it's the annual unnecessary Harley/Ivy story. Was admittedly probably necessary for the first ever DC Pride to help sell it, but even the team of Mariko Tamaki and Amy Reeder doesn't get it past an 'eh' for me. (DC I am begging you give me some creativity in these stories; we don't need a ship that literally appears regularly in ongoings)

He's The Light Of My Life! is a very necessary attempt to try and fix how glurgy and formulaic Alan Scott's coming out story was in Infinite Frontier #0. This time we actually get Alan and Todd having more of a conversation about things and things being somewhat awkward with the friction between Alan and the way he'd navigated hidden years compared to Todd's far more Millennial attitude to being out, framed around the history of the bar/restaurant they were meeting at. A major improvement.

Clothes Makeup Gift I knew literally nothing about Jess Chambers before reading this, but what I will say is the story's got the same cute incidental feel to it that I've seen in several Wally/Linda short stories in various anthologies, which is a very good association to have when you're also a Flash character. It was lightweight filler but it was charming lightweight filler.

Be Gay, Do Crime honestly if the Kate Kane story hadn't been so great this story would have won best of for me entirely off the back of Hartley's very tired sounding moment when he says "It's...not as simple as that. When you get older, the necessity for systems becomes a bit clearer. Mind-controlling people for quick fixes is not the solution--" because oh wow do I want to say things just like that to a whole lot of people who sound and have attitudes very much like Drummer Boy in this. Amazing characterisation beat, I loved it.

Date Night it's fine, of all the Nia Nal stories I've read in various Pride anthologies so far this was one of the most slight, but I guess it was the very first go around and so that's why it's just another 'running late for a date' story.

Love Life this could have been an email. I am shocked not shocked to discover my least favourite aspect of Pride anthologies, the Justice League Queer, first appeared in my least favourite type of story in that anthology, 'look we're at a Pride Parade!'. It's like a collision of the worst aspects of dull 'hey we exist!' representation without actually bothering to provide a compelling story. It's just so tokenistic and boring.

#z canon read throughs #DC pride anthology

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once-upon-an-animation · 1 year ago

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My massive TSATS Review

Hi everyone. In this post, I will sharing my thorough review of The Sun & The Stars by Rick Riordan and Mark Oshiro. I don’t normally do thorough book reviews, but since I’ve invested a lot of time, effort, and money into the hype for this book, I feel like a thorough book review is the best way to top off the journey. In this review, I’m going to be going over my honest feelings, thoughts, and opinions on the plot, the characters, and the writing quality. I took notes as I was reading, so certain things may be repeated/out of order/etc. In addition, I only took notes on the things that stood out to me. Therefore, if it’s not mentioned in this review, it means that it’s a detail that I felt neutral on/didn’t care about.

When I do reviews, I like to share details about me that may contribute to my perspective on the book, so that anyone reading this review is aware of any biases I may have. So here are some of the opinions I held prior to starting the book:

I am not a Nico stan. I don’t hate Nico, and I actually enjoy his character quite a bit, but I wouldn’t call myself a stan. I don’t worship or feel particularly attached to his character.

I am not a Solangelo shipper. I like Solangelo as a concept, but have been particularly unimpressed with its execution thus far, especially its introduction in Blood of Olympus (BoO).

As of ToA, I’m not a big fan of Will’s canon personality. I acknowledge and accept it as canon, and I don’t like it. Ever since Will and Nico’s first interactions in BoO, the way Will talks to Nico about his experiences has always rubbed me the wrong way.

Not that it’s anyone’s business, but I am currently unsure of my sexual/romantic orientations. Therefore, I don’t know how much this book means to me in terms of “representation”, and I’m not necessarily nuanced on all aspects of queer relationships. \

I did not like the preview. I read the preview of the first few chapters when it was released/leaked, which Mark shared that they wrote. And yeah…I was not a fan. The writing wasn’t bad, but it did feel a little jarring, which was to be expected. However, the characters, jokes, and overall flow felt off. And I’m sure everyone is tired of hearing this, but it absolutely gave off fanfiction vibes. I mean, TSATS is essentially canon fanfiction given that Mark is not the author of this franchise.

Lastly, the following arguments: “This book isn’t for you; it’s for kids!”, “It’s a kid’s book, it’s supposed to be cringey/corny/silly!”, “If you don’t have anything nice to say about the book, just shut up!”, and “If you think anything was wrong with this book, you didn’t read it right!” do not mean anything to me. Just because I’m an adult doesn’t mean I’ve suddenly lost the capacity to evaluate the quality of children’s media. If adults are allowed to create children’s media, then adults should also be allowed to analyze them and critique them. In addition, if adults are allowed to review a book and say that it’s good, then adults should be allowed to review a book and say that it’s bad. Positive opinions are not inherently more valid or morally better than negative ones. Negative opinions have their place in art and literature consumption and people are allowed to dislike things and share why. If you cannot handle the possibility that people thought this book was bad, then book discussion is not an arena you should be in. Lastly, I do not hold children’s media or diverse media to lower standards. Children’s media can and should be of high quality. Diverse media can and should be of high quality.

Whew, okay! Now that that’s out of the way, let’s get started! Warning: There will be spoilers! And this post will be very huge/long!!!

Plot

So the basic gist of the plot is that Nico has been hearing this voice calling out to him from Tartarus and he believes that it’s Bob, so he and Will journey down to Tartarus to go rescue him. They stop by the Jackson apartment to get some advice from Percabeth, they spend some time in the Underworld with the troglodytes, and then they face off with Nyx in Tartarus, who is holding Bob hostage. As far as the overall plot, I was very “meh” on the whole thing. I already disliked the premise because A) I think Rick’s version of Tartarus is kind of lame and he always insists on turning things into a joke down there, and B) It felt kind of repetitive with Percabeth’s journey. In addition, Will and Nico don’t actually reach Tartarus until more than halfway through the book, which is actually ridiculous. As a result, the first half of the book feels like such a massive drag and around Chapter 26, I kept wondering “Holy cow, when are they going to get to main destination!!?!??”

Before anyone comes for me, I completely understand that this book is more character-focused than plot-focused. In some ways, this is a welcome change, but in other ways, it really makes certain portions of the book feel like a slog to get through, especially if you’re not a diehard Nico/Will/Solangelo stan and you were hoping for an exciting story outside of the characters. Just because you’re spending more time with the characters doesn’t mean that your story should be lagging. You’re supposed to weave the character development into the main plot.

Anyway, here are my specific chapter notes, arranged in groups:

Chapters 1-5

- So it seems like not much was changed between the preview I read and the final version of the story. I’m kind of disappointed about that because as previously stated, I didn’t really like the preview.

- The Darth Vader joke: I thought the overall joke was cute, but I think it’s the way it was written that makes it land weirdly. I think it went on for just a tad too long.

- I’m not really buying the idea that there are zero kids staying at CHB for the year aside from Nico and Will. I understand the explanation that the book gave, but I find it very unlikely that every single kid at CHB has a happy home to return to, especially given Annabeth’s and Leo’s storylines as examples.

- On a positive note, I am happy to see Nico’s Italian heritage being a stronger part of his character.

- I really enjoyed Nico’s dream sequence in the beginning chapters. It felt nice to see dreams used not just as a plot device but in a way that says more about the emotions of the character. I hope you’re taking notes, Uncle Rick!

Chapters 6-10

- I have mixed feelings about the Percabeth cameo. On the one hand, I feel like it’s tradition to have them cameo in books now since they’re no longer main characters and people like having updates on them. I also think receiving their advice about Tartarus made sense. On the other hand, their advice was kind of shitty and not very useful. There were so many practical tips they could have given, such as certain enemies (ie. Nyx) or certain locations (ie. Hermes’ shrine) to look out for, and they just like…didn’t. It kind of kills me because Annabeth in particular is supposed to be the “smart” and “wise” character, but whenever she has an opportunity to actually do something wise and helpful, Rick dodges that shit like the plague.

- Speaking of WiseGirl, Annabeth’s “Why you, Nico?” line pisses me off and feels like a really stupid question that she should know better than to ask. Unless there are details that I’m missing, Annabeth knows that Percy’s relationship with Bob is quite strained due to the fact that Percy never visited him and Nico being the one to visit is the main reason that Bob was willing to help. Why would it surprise her that Bob would call out to Nico instead of them? Is Nico not the one who actually formed a friendship with the guy? In addition, why should it even matter that Bob didn’t call out to them? It’s not like she and Percy would have actually gone, given how traumatized they are by Tartarus and how they’re trying to live peaceful lives. So again, what is the motivation for asking a rude question like this? Did she actually want to lead the rescue mission? Would a call from Bob that she may have ended up ignoring make her feel validated> Is she offended or jealous or something? Sorry, but this question annoyed me so much and I don’t understand why Annabeth felt like she needed to ask it given everything she knows about Bob and Nico.

- I appreciate hearing Nico make some positive comments about Percy, especially since a lot of Nico/Solangelo stans insist that Percy is the Devil Incarnate. Hopefully, the fact that their favourite character doesn’t hate Percy as much as they do will inspire some of them to chill.

Chapters 11-15

- The nightmares/visions during the encounter with Epiales were pretty well done. In fact, I wish some of Annabeth and Percy’s encounters in Tartarus had gone a little more like Will’s visions in this scene; having nightmares about their insecurities regarding each other and questioning their relationship.

- The troglodyte scene was really dragging. A lot of the dialogue at the beginning of Chapter 14 felt stale and unnecessary.

Chapters 16-20

- The Nyx encounter in the Chapter 17 flashback was really good, and is everything Nyx should have been in HoH.

- Nico’s Tartarus recall was a little…underwhelming. Like the Nyx encounter was great, I just expected for more things to happen to him, like more monster encounters and stuff.

Chapters 21-25

- The ‘story time’ about Nico asking Will out on a date irks me for multiple reasons. 1) So ever since Rick decided to be more upfront about tackling social justice/deeper relationship topics in his books, his writing has developed this preachy quality to it where it feels like he’s just lecturing his readers through the voice of the characters and hand-holds them through his exploration of relationship/queer topics. I hate when Rick does this because the writing is way too on-the-nose and the characters sound awkward and not really like themselves; they sound like someone outside of the story is talking to you. This first date story time reeks of that on-the-nose quality and I don’t like it. 2) I have doubts about whether asking Will out in front of the entire camp (or being the one to ask for a first date in general) is actually in character for Nico. I think Nico could have opened up more as the relationship progressed, but making the first move in the beginning seems more like it should be a Will thing. 3) I am so sorry, but I do not buy for a second that no demigod at CHB felt comfortable in their queerness before Nico came along. It’s a Greek myth camp, for crying out loud. Not only are a lot of the Greek myths and mythological figures hella queer (including some of the Olympians!!!) but some of these kids are also products of queer relationships (ie. Kayla Knowles). Not to mention, one of the biggest narrative themes of CHB is that it’s a place where demigods who have never felt quite at home in the mortal world can establish a sense of belonging and not feel like they’re weird or unusual. Now, I understand that CHB has shown judgment towards certain things (like children of Hades), but that’s mostly because of Hades’ reputation and misunderstanding from myths. And like I said earlier, those same myths also include some queer relationships amongst some of its more beloved figures, so I don’t know that being non-cishet would have been viewed as weird or unusual at a place like CHB if they’re following the myths so closely. Sorry, this argument is kind of disorganized, but overall, CHB is a camp where kids have all kinds of experiences, powers, interests, family backgrounds, monster encounters and more. A girl who likes girls or a boy who likes boys is probably one of the least notable things that they’ve ever encountered, and I just have a hard time believing that the entire camp would be homophobic to the point where no one was comfortable with being out.

- So I actually really like the idea of Persephone and Will interacting and talking about how to manage being in the Underworld. However, something about the dialogue in this scene felt…stale. I understood the message that was being sent, but the actual conversation itself felt a little bland. I’m also disappointed to see that Rick/Mark fell into that same pattern that anyone who writes about Persephone does where they try to romanticize things between Persephone and Hades, and make Demeter seem like a bad figure. Like gee, your mother was protective of you and got mad when you were kidnapped and raped against your will; what a terrible mother, huh? And just once, I would like to read a story where Persephone rightfully bears a little resentment towards Hades for dragging her into a marriage that she didn’t actually want afaik.

Chapters 26-30

- Shout out to the narrative for gleefully reminding us that we are not yet in Tartarus as of Chapter 26, which is more than halfway through the book. Goodness gracious!

- Will & Nico’s “argument” is…okay. I was hoping that it would be moreso about Will’s comments seeing as that’s been the biggest issue so far.

- The infamous Lil’ Nas X reference…not only is it kind of random, but I’m surprised that it’s even in this book. Is the ‘Montero’ video actually appropriate for this book’s target audience? (And when I say ‘appropriate’, I’m not referring to the queer themes, I’m referring to the sexual stuff, like the lapdancing on Satan and whatnot.)

Chapters 31-35

- We are on Chapter 32 of a 51-chapter book with about 160 pages left, and the characters are just now arriving to their main destination. I’m so sorry, but that is such a silly writing decision that I can NOT take seriously.

- I enjoyed the Solangelo argument in chapter 34. Wish it had been a little longer.

Chapters 36-40

- Ah, the infamous aeternae. When I went to Rick/Mark’s TSATS tour, Mark revealed that their first draft of this scene had initially been super serious and scary, but they eventually felt like they had written something too scary. Mark revealed that Rick’s “strategy” for handling a super scary scene was to “cut the tension” with a joke. And so, Mark took the scary aeternae scene and turned it into a joke by making the aeternae a pair of himbos. Words cannot describe how much I hate this. Why can’t scary things be allowed to stay scary? It’s Tartarus, my guy. It’s supposed to be the most frightening place a demigod can be. Why should any aspect of it be turned into a joke? The unnecessary humor messes with the tone of the story and ruins all the suspense and tension that’s been built up. It also makes Tartarus seem less intimidating than it should be.

Chapters 41-45

- Words cannot describe how much I hate the implication that Nyx and Nico produced “children” together. Yes, I know they’re not real children, but I still hate the implication. It’s creepy.

- Now going into this book, I knew damn well that Will wasn’t going to get left behind. I also knew Bob wasn’t likely to get left behind because having them go on this rescue quest only for him to not make it out would be a little pointless. But the cocoa puff thing felt like such a cop-out. Like how convenient is it that Nyx brought these demons to life at the right time so that they were just oh-so conveniently available for Nico to sacrifice in the most in-your-face symbolism for letting go of his demons?

Chapters 46-51

- Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Nico tell us in Heroes of Olympus (HoO) that Bianca tried for rebirth? What is she doing in Elysium?

- The dream scene with Nico, Hades, Bianca, and Maria was very sweet. Probably my favourite scene in the entire book.

- “What an ingenious way of fulfilling the prophecy” Chiron says. Good job, Rick/Mark. Way to not-so-subtly pat yourselves on the back there!

- Shout out to Shel from finally graduating from being a plot device/narrative tool to being something of an actual character (this is moreso shade at Rick). The fact that she’s Native like Piper is really nice.

- Nico’s conversation with Piper is fine, but I don’t like the way it’s written. It’s another heaping pile of that on-the-nose, hand-holding, social-justice-lecture, talking-through-the-character style of writing that I don’t really like. Again, I have no issue with the topic at hand. But the characters do not sound like themselves. They sound like Rick talking to the audience. It’s weird, and I can almost guarantee that there was a better way to write this dialogue.

- Kind of sad that Bob isn’t sticking around, but it’s cool that he’s heading west. Potential reunion with Percy? Hope so. Maybe he and Percy can talk and Percy can apologize/smooth out their relationship.

Characters

So in this section, I’m going to discuss the characters individually, and also Solaneglo’s relationship. I will obviously have the most to say about Nico/Will/Solangelo. In addition, I will only point out the things that stood out to me, and I will try not to repeat myself. So if this character section seems kind of short, it’s probably because my thoughts have been spread out in other sections of this review.

Nico

Overall, I think I liked Nico’s character in this book. I liked that we got to learn a little more about his family relationships, his dreams, his solo time in Tartarus, and his perspective on certain characters and past events. However, his characterization did feel…off…from time to time. I think the reason why has less to do with TSATS in particular and more to do with how Rick has been handling Nico’s character ever since the end of BoO. I think Rick was so insistent on giving Nico a healing/happy-ending romance as quickly as possible that he not only rushed through Solangelo’s introduction and glossed over their initial development, but he also rushed through Nico’s healing process. I feel like there are large chunks of Nico’s emotional healing that was skipped during all the time jumps between BoO/ToA and within ToA itself, and anything that’s told to us in TSATS can only be told in retrospect. As a result, Nico’s joking/ flirting/ wisecrack nature in TSATS feels really sudden and maybe even OOC, because Rick never really showed us when and how Nico developed into this version of himself. To summarize, I believe this version of Nico could exist someday, but the transition needed to be longer, and more importantly, more of it needed to be shown to the reader.

In addition, while we did learn a lot more about Nico, I feel like there were still major things that were missing. His relationship with Hazel was surprisingly absent from his thoughts, and Reyna was barely mentioned, if at all. This represents a larger issue I have with Rick Riordan where, as soon as a character becomes a couple with someone, he tends to shaft their non-romantic relationships in favour of the romance. Like how Grover and Sally lost a lot of narrative importance in Percy’s life in favour of Annabeth during HoO; I really hated that.

Will

Like I mentioned at the beginning of this review, I came into TSATS not really liking Will and not really thinking that he’s the godsend boyfriend for Nico that the fandom likes to paint him as. I was hoping that TSATS would change my mind about Will, and while his character was improved for me in some ways, I think I walked away from this book still not really liking him that much.

So Will’s arc was mostly about accepting the darkness within Nico, the world, and within himself instead of viewing it as something inherently bad/evil or something he has to fix. As a part of this arc, he spends a lot of time complaining about the Underworld/Tartarus and associated concepts (ie. death, darkness, misery, ghosts, etc.) during the quest. Look. I understand the whole thing about Will being a child of Apollo and therefore not really vibing with the Underworld/Tartarus well. I understood and actually enjoyed his fear to some extent. However, I have some thoughts about the nature of these complaints. First of all, Will is not a newbie demigod. According to him and some of his background that’s established in this same book, Will has been at CHB for a while now, and he has endured 3 major conflicts in which numerous friends and siblings died. Will has had more than a lifetime of exposure to death and misery, so I don’t understand why this quest is being treated like his first rodeo with death and misery. I can’t really say it’s OOC for him given how limited his characterization has been before this, but still, it doesn’t really align with the established facts we know about Will. The themes of death and sadness should not be new concepts to him, yet this book is acting like he has never been exposed to this stuff before, despite the fact that the narrative literally acknowledges that he’s been through this stuff before. Again, I’m totally fine with him fearing monsters and total darkness and stuff, but loss and grief are things he should be more than familiar with. In addition, the narrative goes so far to even throw in that Will likes true crime podcasts. Now, listening to podcasts and being in the Underworld/Tartarus are two very different experiences, yes. But I just find it odd that Will can tolerate media about murder/kidnappings/etc. But the death and misery associated with the Underworld has him shaking for some reason.

I also find it odd that Will’s regard to Nico’s struggles with darkness, death, and misery is not always consistent. He can demonstrate the kind, empathetic, snd understanding nature of a healer when he needs to (ie. page 144 when Nico is about to start his Tartarus recall) but somehow he can’t see the insensitivity in the comments he keeps making about the Underworld? Again, it’s okay that Will doesn’t personally like the Underworld, but how is he not realizing how uncomfortable it must be for Nico to keep hearing all these complaints about concepts that he, as a son of Hades, is strongly associated with? On page 185, Will asks Nico yet another question about how he doesn’t find the ghosts disturbing. Nico explains that the Underworld is his second home and Will’s immediate response? “I could never live here.” Like look, this is a totally valid and understandable opinion for Will to have, but it’s also a dickish thing to respond to what Nico said, and the context in which it’s being said makes it frustrating. How and why is Will still acting surprised about what Nico is comfortable with? Nico is a son of Hades, for crying out loud! Him being comfortable with darkness, death, ghosts, and other associated things should NOT be a shock to anyone, let alone his own boyfriend of 6+ months. During the entire book, I couldn’t help but wonder why Will was even dating Nico in the first place if Nico’s domain made him this uncomfortable.

I’m glad Will and Nico were able to talk about this and smooth things over at the end, but by the time this arc was resolved, my annoyance with Will had already been solidified.

Another component of WIll’s arc is that he felt like he was a burden to Nico on the quest because of how much he was struggling with the lack of light and the fact that he kept getting injured/tired. This is fine and I actually like this. What I thought was a little silly was Will forgetting to bring a weapon or something to fight with. Yes, I understand that Will’s unpreparedness was a part of his arc, but while I fully understand his unpreparedness for the darkness/lack of light, him not bringing a weapon is very stupid, and the narrative acknowledging it doesn’t make it any less stupid. Again, Will is practically a veteran as far as demigod things go. How he could make such a silly mistake is beyond me. You’re going into the most dangerous territory in the Greek myth world for demigods, and you didn’t think you should have something to protect yourself with? Seriously? And the worst part is that Nico/the narrative literally mentions that Will has been in three major conflicts so far, but from the way Rick and Mark wrote him at certain points in this book, you’d never be able to tell.

Solangelo (as a pair)

I mentioned at the beginning that I am not a Solangelo shipper, so all the romance in this book didn’t have me leaping for joy as it may have for others. Overall, I still like the concept of their relationship and the themes associated with it, but I’m still not a fan of the way they're being executed. Will’s character arc made things a little harder for me, and the fanfiction vibes of the book were not my cup of tea. I have a smattering of different thoughts about Solangelo in this book, so I’m going to jump from idea to idea.

First, some of the romance/flirting/bantering did come off quite cheesy in a way that’s unusual in Rick’s better books (part of what gives TSATS fanfiction vibes).. Don’t get me wrong, I’m happy that the two boys like each other and have fun together, but it started to feel excessive at some point. Like Will recalling how Percabeth said being cheesy helps, and then Nico responding “Lay it on me, Will. I’m your grilled cheese” (page 373) made me put the book down so I could take a break. And before anyone come for my neck saying “They’re teenagers, it’s supposed to be cringey”...I have read PLENTY of books involving teenagers in which the romance/humor managed to accommodate the age of the characters AND still be mature enough so that it didn’t feel corny. There are fun yet tasteful ways to handle teenage romance/teenage humor in books and it’s up to the authors to find a good balance, so please miss me with this argument.

Lastly, this is going to sound rather bitchy, but I don’t want to hear the term “grumpy little ball of darkness” ever again. I know it was mostly a joke, but it was super corny the first time it was said, and it was corny every time after.

Next up, the circumstances surrounding their first kiss…I don’t like it. I’m obviously not mad at the idea of Will trying to be a supportive companion to Nico in that moment. I’m more so annoyed at what this kiss represents in the larger context of the Riordanverse. To some extent in PJO and to full extent since HoO, Rick Riordan has developed a deeply irritating habit of using romance as the solution to the characters’ emotional conflicts, grief, and traumas. There are too many characters in this franchise whose running emotional issues are magically solved by romance and I hate it. I think it’s harmful messaging to be sending to Rick’s young and impressionable audience that romance is the healing antidote to all of life’s problems. Feeling unwanted and like you’re not sure where you belong because everyone and everything keeps changing on you? Get a boyfriend! Feeling guilty about your past and like a 7th wheel amongst your friends? Get a girlfriend! Struggling with loss and grief and feeling like you’re always going to be alone? Get a boyfriend! Your ex just died in the midst of you trying to figure out your identity and you’re still in the grieving process? Get a girlfriend! It’s gotten sooo annoying at this point! Like no kids, getting into a romantic elationship will not solve all your problems. And viewing your significant other as the fixer-upper for your trauma is NOT actually a good thing, contrary to popular belief. Treating your romantic other as your only source of joy, hope, and happiness is a terrible approach to healing. Just once, I would like the kids in this franchise to work through their emotions in a way that doesn’t default to romance. Because should Will and Nico ever break up (not that they ever will, because according to Rick Riordan, most people find their soulmate as a teen), or something happens to Will, what will Nico do? Crumble? Fall apart? Waste away?

This is part of why I felt like it was really important for Nico to heal PRIOR to engaging in a romance because things like the circumstances of their first kiss suggest a sort of dependence that he’s developing on Will for dealing with his grief and inner demons, and I just don’t agree that this is a healthy coping mechanism. Nico doesn’t deserve to be alone or feel alone, but he does need to learn how to heal and cope through his traumas on his own because using Will as his source of healing is not a good thing. It’s okay for Will to support him or give him advice, but Will should NOT be Nico’s primary source of hope and happiness; Nico should be Nico’s primary source of hope and happiness so that if anything ever happens to Will, Nico doesn’t break into pieces because he’s developed the necessary strength to move on and find happiness within his own self, independent of a romantic other. Romance should complement the happiness you’ve grown from and for yourself, not be the source of it.

Next, Nico telling Will he loves him during the fall to Tartarus as a parallel to Annabeth whispering “I love you” to Percy is…not really something I like. I truly hate to compare a gay ship to a straight one, but let it be known that the critique that I’m about to give has nothing to do with Nico/Will being queer specifically, and more to do with the way they’ve been written. Anywho, with Percabeth, something about that “I love you” on their fall into Tartaurs felt more special given the long history of friendship that they had prior to their romantic one in the PJO series, and the fact that they had been separated so long just prior to the fall. The “I love you” between Nico and Will is sweet on a surface level, but the fact that it’s an obvious copy of Annabeth’s “I love you”, and the fact that we don’t have as much history with Solangelo as we did with Percabeth really takes away from the impact. I think this “I love you” would have held more power at the end of the book. For example, Will and Nico could finally have a discussion about all of Will’s struggles with darkness, and when Will finally accepts the darkness as a part of who Nico is (hopefully) and states that he loves Nico as he is, darkness included, we as readers can feel happy that Nico has found someone who accepts every part of him, even the parts that aren’t so pretty. Will then tells Nico that he loves him, a love that encompasses all of who Nico is, and Nico can say it back, accepting Will for all of who he is. All in all, I think the “i Love you” should have waited, and I don’t think it should have been a rehash of Percabeth’s moment; Solangelo should have gotten their own unique moment.

Next, Will’s guilt over Octavian’s death and him calling Nico a murderer made me go back and reread the scene in BoO. I can understand and appreciate his guilt from a healer’s perspective, but him thinking Nico was a murderer as a deep hidden grievance is kind of funky. Yes, Nico saying that they couldn’t stop Octavian probably came off really poorly in that moment. But also…Nico wasn’t saying that because he was bent on seeing the guy die. Octavian chose suicide and no matter what Will/Nico did, Octavian would have fought to get on that onager. Viewing Nico as a murderer for this, even by mistake, feels a little…extreme.

Lastly for this section, when Nico and Will finally had the talk about Will’s complaining, I liked the gist of the conversation, but I didn’t really like the conclusion that Will came to (or maybe it was the way it was written). Nico’s point was that death is amoral. Yes, it’s hard for the people who are still alive and left behind, but it isn’t an inherently evil process, and the place where the dead go isn’t inherently evil either. However, when Will reflects on this, he focuses on the entities that are alive/from the surface and are somehow thriving in the Underworld, which kind of misses the point. The takeaway shouldn’t be that there’s hope in the Underworld because of the living things that are present there. The takeaway should be that death, darkness, grief, all have their importance and place in our world, and that things that are associated with them aren’t inherently bad or evil. The Underworld doesn’t need to have life in it for it to be valuable.

Miscellaneous

Here, I will talk about a bunch of characters who made important cameos, but weren’t present enough to have their own section. If there’s a character missing here, it’s because I had no significant thoughts on them.

Percy:

- I’m glad to see multiple characters acknowledge that Percy needs time off.

- As sadistic as this might sound, I’m glad to hear that Percy is still having nightmares about Tartarus. I’ve always felt like Rick did a shoddy job of exploring the impact of Tartarus on Percy and Annabeth. This update on Percy doesn’t really make up for what could have been, but I’m glad to see the trauma being taken a little more seriously.

Annabeth:

- I already shared my grievances about Annabeth in the plot section.

The Troglodytes:

- I kind of like the Troglodytes, but their presence in this story felt a little…long, almost like they overstayed their welcome.

Dionysus:

- Mr. D feels off in this book, both at the beginning at the end. At first, I couldn’t really tell what it was, but by the end, I think I got it. So we all know that under Mr. D’s “I don’t give a shit about y’all” exterior, he actually kind of cares about the demigods. However, he’s always been subtle with it so that he never looks like he cares too much, and I don’t think this is something that he would suddenly change just for Nico, even as his pseudo-therapist. Unfortunately, the way he’s written in the book and his dialogue is a little over the top. His excitement towards Nico at the end especially feels OOC.

Nyx:

- I like Nyx a lot better in this book than in HoH. She feels less like a bumbling idiot, and more like a truly scary entity, although I was not glad to see that little tourist skit return. I wish we had spent more time with her.

Writing Style/Quality

So for the last section for this review, I’m going to speak specifically on the writing quality of this book; I’ll be critiquing certain writing decisions made by both Mark and Rick.This section is also a smattering of thoughts, so I’ll be jumping again. Here we go!

First off, the overall formatting of the story was kind of weird and disjointed. For example, choosing to stick with Nico’s POV for the entire beginning, but then suddenly jumping between Will and Nico’s POV after the encounter with Epiales was giving me a little bit of a mental whiplash. I wish they would have stuck to one POV per chapter just to keep things more organized. The interspersing of the story time with Gorgyra was kind of weird too, especially after I learned that it was taking place at a point midway through the overall story. It’s clear that this part of the story mostly exists to establish the canon version of how Will and Nico developed feelings for each other and hooked up, but I think there were better ways of just weaving this into the main story rather than constantly pausing the main story to do this weird kindergarten story time thing. I mean, the main plot was already taking its sweet ass time, and the Gorgyra scenes made it feel worse. I think the Gorgyra thing should have just taken place at its chronological spot. Lastly, I think Nico’s solo Tartarus flashback would have worked better as an epilogue, like ´oh, this is how Nico’s last trip to Tartarus went and now this book is about how different his 2nd trip will now that he’s not alone and Will here’ or something like that.

Next, for the writing specifically, I have mixed feelings about Mark’s contributions to the book. One thing I appreciate about Mark’s writing is the heavier emotional weight of things. I’ve always felt like Rick’s writing was too “Go! Go! Go!” all the time and that he never let the emotions of the plot he was writing sit and simmer within the characters, making the characters feel a little hollow at times. I like that Mark is dwelling a little longer on the emotional aspect of the story and isn’t rushing right through them. However, there are certain portions of the book where the language is just a little too flowery and philosophical rather than just like…getting to the main point. This probably contributed to how long it took for the characters to move on from certain scenes. Also, there were portions of the book where the sentences just felt kind of clumsy and awkward, like Mark knew that they needed to write something but wasn’t quite sure what to write.

Moving on, the pop culture references are definitely a little much. Now, to be fair, pop cultural references are not new to the Riordanverse, but I reread the PJO/HoO/ToA series a little while ago, and I recently read the Kane Chronicles for the first time, and I don’t think the pop culture references in those series occur nearly as frequently as they do in certain portions of this book (ToA might be an exception, but I feel like Apollo’s/Lester’s close relationship with the performing arts makes it more acceptable). In addition, pop culture jokes are not the only way to make good jokes. One thing I really liked about the Kane Chronicles is how Rick often used the mythology/local culture/circumstances of the specific scene as the foundation for jokes, because these feel a lot more organic and natural to the story, and are actually funny, and I wish TSATS had leaned into this more. It also didn’t help TSATS that some of the references felt forced amidst the conversation being had (eg. Nico’s ‘Single Ladies’ joke on page 12. Will makes a comment about not having any monsters to slay, and Nico responds with a joke about making skeletons do a choreographed dance to ‘Single Ladies’. A joke about making skeletons dance felt like a weird response to a comment specifically about slaying monsters, and it didn’t really fit in with the conversation). In general, randomly mentioning things that your audience might be familiar with isn't really humor; the references have to make sense within the context of what’s happening. Puns, play-on-words, sarcastic/smartass comments have been used before in the Riordanverse and worked fine when they were written properly. For example, Will’s “Noble McSacrifice”comment on page 45 actually made me chuckle, as grown as I am. So yeah, Rick has done better jokes in past books, and the try-hard pop references in this book is another thing that made it feel like fanfiction. I cringed very very deeply when I read the “#OnBrand” joke.

Lastly, I’ve already mentioned my thoughts on Rick’s on-the-nose writing. It’s like he doesn’t trust the audience to connect the dots anymore on certain themes and social justice issues, and that they need it spelled out for them in the most blatant and obvious way possible. Like yay for Rick for wanting to touch on important topics, but there’s a way to do this without sounding like you’re making a social justice lecture post on 2014 Tumblr. Find a way to weave these topics and lessons into the narrative so that you’re showing your readers the lesson rather than just telling them the lesson.

Also, if you’re going to use the characters as mouth pieces for these things, it would be nice if the characters could actually sound like themselves rather than just a vehicle for what Rick wants to tell the audience. Like, I really hate how the characters are literally just stating and explaining their character arcs to us, as if we didn’t just literally read the book and can see the arc for ourselves.

Overall Impression

I think this book is pretty mid. It’s not the awful trash that some people think it is, but it didn’t really meet the hype for me either, especially as a non-Solangelo shipper. Certain aspects of it were nice, but many aspects of it annoyed me, and my opinions on Will/Solangelo haven’t really changed. I give it 3 out 5 stars.

#tsats spoilers #tsats crit #the sun and the star #Nico di Angelo #Will solace #solangelo #anti solangelo #rick riordan #mark oshiro #tsats #tsats review

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