#what is s2 even gonna b about | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

bylertruth3r · 10 months ago

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Mike and Will literally share shoes (and Will might be sleeping in Mike's room) and might not be dating yet when they start dating they're gonna share a whole closet and flirt with each other about how good they look in each other's clothes and just being obnoxious (I will rewatch those scenes so many times) what if they're sharing/swapping shoes because it's the 80's and they're in a really homophobic and conservative town and if they want to give little hints that they're dating and want to openly show it (to at least their friends) they have to be subtle about it? and maybe when they're at home they share clothes without feeling like they have to be careful with how they act around each other and can be openly affectionate (like them in s2)

Thank you for pointing it out @cler1csfink

you can read my twitter thread about Mike being gay and in love with Will here

blue sky account here

tik tok account here

Confirmation that they're the same shoes and they're both size 10 so yeah they're sharing shoes

and Mike brought these shoes from Hawkins which means the puma suede belong to Will

and in a leaked footage El and Mike broke up/ were already broken up because Mike says "we'll still be friends" and "i wanted to tell you first" which makes me think he might have came out to her (and in that video he was literally wearing his boyfriend's shoes)

video from @nowmemoriees

in s1 during that scene on the train tracks they're friends and in the leaked video they were wearing similar clothes to what they were wearing in that s1 scene where they were friends and could trust each other. i think Mike's gonna come out to her (as gay) there which would explain why El was crying, and why Mike said "i wanted to talk to you first", in s1 Mike said "friends tell the truth" to El and in s5 it's Mike's turn to be honest about himself and maybe he'll tell her he's in love with Will or maybe he'll tell her that he's dating Will

it's the same song that played when Robin came out to Steve, obviously Steve had a crush on Robin but she's a lesbian and can only love him platonically while even though Mike tried to love El romantically he couldn't do it because he's gay and he didn't even bother to close his eyes and kiss her back

plus in a deleted script it says he was mad at himself

and the song playing when Mike and El were kissing in s3 "can't fight this feeling" is about someone being in love with their friend and not knowing what to do about it while already being in a relationship with someone else so it's about Mike being in love with Will and not knowing what to do so he represses it and pushes him away to get over him but then realizing it's not working (which is something he realized at the end of s3) and he's gay and he want on a double date with Will and Lumax after that

and Mike in s4 was trying to be normal and might be into new things (men, because dnd is not new)

and

and in s4 "in the closet at rink o mania" started playing Mike took what Will said "and us?" as romantic and felt the need to clarify that they're friends and Will said they used to be best friends and the camera panned back to Mike plus synth music is his thing since he has "Smalltown Boy" (gay song) as his first song on his spotify playlist, it's a song about a gay man leaving his homophobic town to start a new life and Finn said he wants Mike to leave Hawkins

and he has a "one way" sign pointing to his closet because he's gay and closeted and in his room he has a poster of a shirtless man while the others (Steve, B*lly, and Lucas' "friends") all have women posters because they like women, Mike has all the things he loves the most in his room, a wizard (Will) and buff men <33, and a buff male dragon for some reasons and he has Will's drawings in his room

Mike being obsessed with Superman? and him having a poster of a shirtless man while Steve, B*lly and the tigers all had posters of women in bikinis (because they like girls) Will has a skinny pink panther poster in his room which symbolizes his type in men (Mike) Mike has a shirtless man poster and a buff male dragon poster which symbolizes his type in men (Will) (he's not really buff but he's stronger than Mike) they're each other's type and love each other plus you can see Mike looking at Will's arms during some scenes

also in s3 he was happy about Dustin having a gf and asked him about her but then in s4 when he "finds out" Will has a crush on a "girl" he doesn't ask him about "her" and acts distant (he was pretending he didn't care but he was jealous) and he asked Will about the painting because he was hoping it was for him (it was)

and he realized Will loves him back in the van scene, Mike wants to feel needed and Will needs him, Mike felt lost without Will, Will felt lost without Mike, Will loves him, Mike loves him back, they both think the other doesn't love them, they will prove each other wrong in s5 when Mike finds out Will lied about the painting and loves him back, they love each other the way they want to be loved

and he was so happy to see Will drew a heart on his shield

which is literally an engagement ring, no hands because they'll be more than friends in s5

they've been filming a lot at that farm.. and Ross and his wife said that they enjoyed eyewitness

and Lukas and Mike both have internalized homophobia (Lukas was dating a girl to be normal and then he breaks up with his gf and starts dating Philip,his male best friend)

and if this leak is actually correct there would be another parallel. the episode 2 of s5 is called "the vanishing of ***** Wheeler and if Holly goes missing then Mike and Will are gonna go looking for her in the upside down and maybe they'll kiss there (maybe that's where Mike's gonna get injured)

because in eyewitness Lukas gets injured and his boyfriend stays with him and he kisses his forehead, Lukas' dad sees it (he's ok with it)

and in s2 Mike stayed with Will at the hospital so now it's Will's turn

they've been filming a lot at that farm.. and Ross and his wife said that they enjoyed eyewitness and they filmed at like 3 or 4 different farms (one of them has swings) and they're literally filming at one right now

more s5 leaks and Mike and El staying friends after the break up and Mike being worried for Will <33 and Mike and Robin bonding over their partners being in danger

Will is wearing one of Mike's shirts in s5, Mike wore something similar in s3 it's a gap shirt and Eddie said Mike wears gap shirts and Will has never worn something like this in the previous seasons and he didn't bring that many clothes back to Hawkins so he's gonna have to wear Mike's if he's staying at Mike's (the Wheelers added 2 chairs to their breakfast table and Will's tiger plushie is in Mike's room, it makes me think that they're already dating in the scene because Will is wearing blue yellow and green which are Byler's colors

Noah liking another byler edit? fork found in the kitchen. pic from @iamforbyler from here . there are hints that Mike and Will's first kiss will be in s5 episode 7 (during Jopper's first kiss there were boxes that said MW705, Mike and Will s5 episode 7) they definitely told him to promote Byler again to introduce Byler as boyfriends to the GA and Millie is not promoting mlvn anymore and when they asked her what her favorite pop culture couple was she said the couple from twlight instead of mlvn

Will's wearing Mike's black jeans, the blue shirt looks like something s2 Mike would wear but the undershirt looks like Will's in s4. he's just stealing his boyfriend's clothes atp because Will has never worn black jeans before and he's wearing blue (Mike's color) and Mike's the only one in the party who has worn black jeans and Will might be staying at Mike's because his tiger plushie was in Mike's room and the Wheelers added 2 chairs to their breakfast table plus Will has to stay at Mike's since he doesn't have a house in Hawkins and the cabin is too small for all the Byers to live in.

maybe he's wearing Mike's black jeans from s5 instead of the s4 ones but either way they're still Mike's jeans since Will has never worn black jeans before s5 and Mike has, Will is stealing his boyfriend's clothes, plus Mike is wearing Will's shoes in s5 <33

Byler is so obviously gonna happen even without all those proofs because they gave mlvn the stancy storyline of Nancy not being able to say "I love you" to Steve because she's in love with Jonathan and they didn't give that storyline to Jopper, Lumax and Jancy or even Duzie which are healthy couples who don't lie about who they are to each other and never felt unloved by their partners, and Mike wants to feel needed and Will needs him and El doesn't and Millie said El realized she's her own superhero and that she's gonna figure out who she is without Mike and Millie is not promoting mlvn anymore

Mike and Will spent s3 acting like they were the exes because in s2 Mike was overly affectionate with Will but he stopped doing that when he got a gf because he saw what he did as romantic so in his mind being affectionate with Will even just hugging him or just holding his hand like he did in s2 would be cheating because he's in love with Will and he's gay

Mike becomes less and less interested in El the more feminine she becomes, it becomes more difficult for him to pretend he's straight i mean he "fell in love" with her when she looked like a boy and people kept calling her a boy..

Mike probably thought she was a boy at first, everyone kept calling El the boy with the buzzcut at first in s1 and Mike said "that's not Will" instead of "that's a girl" and interesting thing is the more feminine El becomes the less interested in her Mike becomes, he probably thought El was a boy at first and she was wearing a yellow shirt (Will's color) maybe she reminded him of Will?

I mean Mike being gay aside who would you rather for him to be with?

A, with someone who doesn't understand him and he feels like he has to change himself to be with and who makes him feel insicure?

B, with someone who he feels like he can fully be himself with and who understands him and who puts him on the first place and makes him feel loved? B right? with Will

Jancy had their "we're just friends" moment and they kissed in 2 and Jopper had their "it's just 2 friends getting together for a nice dinner" moment and they kissed in s4 , Lumax had their "she's not my girlfriend" moment and they kissed in s2 and Byler had their "we're friends, we're friends" moment (started by Mike who doesn't know Will is gay) and they'll kiss in s5, there were no moments like these between Dustin and Lucas because they're not in love with each other

Byler's first cameo in a book and they're kissing and holding hands<33 it's about Alina wanting to ask a guy out and she catches the guy (Ben) kissing his boyfriend (Janos), there's carved "W+M" on the tree and a "byler" sign in the second pic, they probably asked permission to Netflix and people who worked on st to add them which makes Byler already canon? the author of the book reversed the arrow on Mike's pocket to point at Will.. and it's close to his heart.. that's adorable

pic from here @sususu34

originally El was supposed to die in s1 (I'm glad they didn't kill her) and they were already planning to make Will in love with Mike since s1? plus if they wanted to make Will move on they would've given him a bf in the previous seasons like with Dustin and Suzie because Max didn't like Dustin back. So basically Mike and Will are gonna get together in s5

JEALOUS MIKE WHEELER WELCOME BACK, Will getting his own love triangle as he should, or maybe it's just Mike since it says "a love interest" not "a new love interest".. I kinda want to see Mike being in pain for a bit tho since I had to witness Will being in pain for 4 seasons, I kinda want a guy to flirt with Will and Will tries to get to know the character to move on from Mike and Mike gets mad and jealous about it, although they did say there were no new characters in it.. and the only new boy is Derek who's Holly's age so maybe the love interest is just Mike, and Mike is gonna be Will's boyfriend, they literally just confirmed Byler because they said Will is getting a boyfriend and they said they won't add any major characters in s5 so that means Mike is gonna be Will's boyfriend

they literally just confirmed Byler is endgame because they said Will is getting a boyfriend and the Duffers said they won't add any major characters in s5 so Mike's gonna be Will's boyfriend since the only new characters are a woman a boy who's 10 and a family with 2 little kids and the Duffers said that Will's emotional arc (his relationship with Mike) is gonna tie up the whole season, if they wanted to give Will another boyfriend they would've done it in the previous seasons (like how they handled Dustin's unrequited love for Max in s2 and gave him a gf in s3) instead of making Will in love with Mike for 4 seasons

Mike is gonna be Will's love interest and boyfriend and they know it that's why they only allowed their subscribers to see this tweet to avoid a lawsuit, leak here, this leaker is really reliable and from Reddit

There's a leak about how Mike and Will are gonna clean each other's wounds in s5 episode 2 like Jancy did in s1, maybe Mike is gonna get hurt while protecting Will from something and Will is probably gonna be there scolding him while cleaning Mike's wounds and Mike is just staring at Will's face and not listening to a single word and blushing

this leaker has a source that was an extra for 2 weeks, take everything as a grain of salt, nothing is confirmed, Mike's gonna kiss Will first (and it's gonna be angsty) after he finds out Will lied about the painting and loves him back, the kiss is gonna happen halfway through the season or later

So according to a leak Mike has finally accepted that he's gay and he's not trying to be normal (straight) anymore, and he's discovering things about himself, he's gonna kiss Will first

So Finn's new st playlist (for s5) is really interesting.. Mike is gay, "it's a passing phase" "give it a hundred years, it won't go away' (from "angst in my pants")"I don't want to be the one whose coming out first" (it's from "don't ask me to explain) Mike wants Will to come out first and to confess first, and "should you need a love that's true, it's me" (from "what you're doing), Will needs Mike and Mike knows it, Mike and Will both have "just what I needed" as the last song in their playlists because they need each other, Mike also has a song about dreaming and thinking about a person they know they're not supposed to, it's his POV of Byler

This is the playlist (STurn), Finn makes playlists for characters he plays for inspiration

Mike tried to lie to himself and pretend that he could love El but he can't (because he's gay and in love with Will), there's a song called "don't ask me anything" in his playlist and the lyrics are "it's so easy to lie to myself and pretend i could love you but i can't" the last lyrics are about a failed relationship with a girl

in s5 episode 4 there will be a flashback with 8 yo Mike and Will and 13 yo Jonathan, the fact that they're spending so much time on Byler (and even giving us Miwi flashbacks) and that we already got confirmation that Will's gonna have a boyfriend (it's Mike) should tell y'all everything (they're gonna get together), they spent s2 and s4 together and they're gonna be a team (jopper parallel) in s5 and spend most of s5 together, they're gonna film the scene in early July, Mike's the only one with lines so the scene is gonna be shot from his POV of Byler

Mike and Will are gonna spend most of s5 together because they're gonna be a team (jopper parallel) and they're gonna have scenes with Rovickie where they're gonna be a group, Mike's obviously gay because otherwise they wouldn't have put him with other queer people, plus El's gonna have a separate arc from Mike (because they're gonna break up and she's gonna be more independent)

we're gonna get a scene of Byler riding a bike with Holly, Holly's gonna have to thirdwheel Mike and Will, good luck to her, Will's gonna spend most of S5 with Mike and they're gonna be a team (jopper parallel) and if Will's boyfriend was gonna be another boy they would've made Will spend most of S5 with that guy so basically Mike's gonna be Will's boyfriend

Pics here

Will's staying at Mike's which would explain the Wheelers adding 2 chairs and it would explain Mike and Will sharing clothes/items and it would explain Will hanging out with Holly, plus the Byers don't have their old house anymore

Now that we know that Will's staying at Mike's house we're gonna get so much domestic content like them sharing clothes/shoes, them sharing Mike's bed, them taking care of Holly together, them kissing, them going to school together .. They're so married

the mlvn make out scene people are talking about is just a kiss at the beginning of s5 which is gonna be their last kiss (a break up kiss?) which is gonna parallel stancy's last kiss in episode 1 s2 before they broke up and Nancy got with Jonathan ,I think they're doing that to compare Byler's first kiss (which is gonna be passionate and desperate) to mlvn's last kiss, also more confirmation that the painting is gonna be really important in both Mike and Will's storylines, a byler got these things confirmed by 2 sources but they said to not worry because this is not bad for Byler, it's actually good for us, production is also trying to keep Byler hidden (they're gonna get together),

Pics here

They're trying to keep Byler hidden because they're gonna date and the painting is gonna be really important to their storylines because that's how they're gonna get together

happy 2 years anniversary to the most obvious foreshadowing ever (making willelmike walk in their love triangle formation and making El walk away from them and picking up the same dead flowers Mike gave her at the airport because their relationship is dead and making Mike stay with Will and putting Byler with other couples and putting them in the center because the're gonna focus on that relationship in s5 and making them breath in sync while the other couples were holding hands, and they made the music pick up while they showed us the couples, Mike and Will are gonna get together in s5)

video of the scene here

so from what we know so far: a guy is gonna hit on Will and Will won't reciprocate, Jonathan hates that guy for hitting on Will and Mike and Will's relationship is gonna be extremely important in s5 and they're gonna be a team, it's kinda obvious what's gonna happen (Mike and Will are gonna get together), what if Will starts dating Chance and starts hanging out with him more to get over Mike and Mike gets mad and jealous about it and they fight about it and then we have another Byler rain fight but this time Mike's the jealous one? btw Jonathan HATES Chance for hitting on Will, he's a Byler shipper fr, pics of the leak here

Mike said he's the only one that CARES about Will because he's in love with him and he said he cares about El because he's trying (and failing) to love her the way he loves Will but when El called him out on him not loving her anymore he got defensive because he's not in love with her ,he's in love with Will and he's gay

Mike only said those things because he thinks El commissioned the painting and he felt like he owed it to El and you can tell that because he only started saying those things after Will said "you're the heart" and they called the soundtrack of the scene "you're the heart" because Mike now thinks the things Will said in the van were from El, in this scene Mike was trying to recreate the shed scene but the difference is no one pushed Mike into saying those things to Will and he didn't repeat any word he heard from others when he spoke to Will, in s5 he's gonna realize Will loves him back and that he lied about the painting and he's gonna kiss him, Mike likes to plagiarize things, pics here

THE OG PARTY IS BACK and so is the Byler height difference <33, Mike and Will being the IT couple in high school <33, Will is sitting in front of Mike during lunch <33 they're gonna be such a cute couple i just know it, they're gonna be the couple who plays footsies under the table, Holly has a gay thing in her room, maybe to support Mike being gay?

only the couples said to each other or about each other that they were "friends" while the actual platonic friends (Dustin and Lucas) never said it because they never felt the need to, and Mike said it about Will while not even knowing that Will is gay and in love with him.. he said it because he was thinking of Will romantically so he said "we're friends, we're friends" to convince himself not Will

the Duffers called Mike and El their E.T and Elliot (which are platonic friends) and the dead flowers El picked up at the end of s4 were the same flowers Mike gave her at the airport, dead flowers represent a dead relationship, hopefully after the break up they'll be able to communicate more and to actually get to know each other and rhat they'll be actual friends, Mike does love El but he loves her platonically even though he's been tryng to force himself into loving her romantically but he can't because he's gay and in love with Will, parallels here

Byler, Jancy and Lumax all held hands in the same episode in s2

Byler's parallels with Jancy: Nancy couldn't love Steve because she's in love with Jonathan, Mike can't love El because he's gay and in love with Will, Nancy talked to Jonathan about Steve on a car after the break up, Mike talked to Will about El on a car after the fight, Jonathan lied and said Steve asked him to bring Nancy home, Will lied about El commissioning the painting, Nancy yelled Jonathan's name in the upside down and he went to save her, Will yelled Mike's name in the upside down and Mike snapped Will out of his episodes

Byler's parallels with Lumax: Mike stayed with Will in the lab, Lucas stayed with Max in the hospital, Will yelled Mike's name during his episode and Mike snapped him out of his episode, Max yelled Lucas' name and Lucas was there for her, they played a song used in a s2 Lumax scene (on the bus) during Mike and Will's heart to heart and used the interruption trope (a romantic trope) in both scenes

Fun fact: they used "heroes" in s3 again but they cut the "and we kissed as though nothing could fall" lyrics that they used in s1 when Mike was hugging his mom and thinking about Will, those lyrics are reserved to Byler and I think they're gonna use this song again during Byler's first kiss, Acid (a leaker) said that Mike's arc in s5 is about self-discovery (which could be Mike understanding who he belongs with, Will) and that he's not gonna try to be normal (straight, Finn said that Mike was trying to be normal in s3 and s4) in s5, plus I think Mike and Will are gonna have another rain fight before the kiss since Shawn Levy hinted at another Byler rain fight, plus s5 is gonna be Will centric and Mike and Will's relationship is gonna be really important in s5

In the first picture Mike is looking at Will (the boy he's in love with) and in the second picture Trevor is looking at Lucky (the girl he has a crush on), Netflix posted this on Instagram

Mike and Will are gonna spend s5 together as a team (Jopper parallel) and their relationship is gonna be really important in s5, also Will is definitely staying at Mike's since he's hanging out with Mike and Holly so much

Mike is filming a lot of scenes with Robin (canon lesbian character) because he's gay, Will is gonna clean his boyfriend's wounds <33, is Robin gonna be Mike and Will's gay mentor and help them get together? i would love that, Mike and Will are sharing two pair of jeans and sharing stuff is a thing for couples

He called El a weapon in s1 and he wanted to send her back to the lab and only changed his mind when he realized she knew where Will was and that she could help him find him, he absolutely DID NOT fall in love with her her at first sight, if he actually loved her he would've chosen a moment where he actually showed that he was in love with her, plus he's gay and in love with Will, He said he fell for El at first sight because he saw Argyle say something similar about Eden and he tried to copy him, he got caught for plagiarizing something at school so it wouldn't be the first time for him doing that, plus he copied what Eddie said about Dustin and said it to El, plus the Duffers said that they don't believe in love at first sight and the first thing Mike said/thought when he first saw El was "that's not Will", he was trying to recreate the shed scene except that in s2 they won and no one lied to him and his words to Will were genuine and sincere while in s4 Will lied to him and made him think El commissioned the painting (which is why he said those things, he didn't know what to say before Will said "you're the heart") and they lost

The actress who plays Suzie ships Byler, Noah and Finn also ship Byler and Brett also ships Byler and Millie ships Byler and the actor who plays younger Henry ships Byler

why did they make Mike say he loved El in s3 and then made him say he forgot he said it and then in s4 he couldn't say it anymore? it makes no sense because he knows El heard him and he just could've just said it again to her face in s3 instead of acting dumb, also in s4 he put the blame on other people instead of on himself and instead of trying to comfort El and he was all defensive and stuff like Nancy when she broke up with Steve, Mike meant it platonically and he's gay

CALEB SAID THEY MADE PLAYLISTS FOR THEIR CHARACTERS, SO STURN (Finn made this playlist) IS ABOUT MIKE AND HE'S GAY (it has lyrics like "it's so easy to lie to myself and pretend that I could love you but I can't" which is about mlvn and "besides I don't want to be the one whose coming out first") which is about Mike wanting Will to come out as gay first because he's scared and it has a song about a milkshake and about how a relationship wasn't built to last (which is also about mlvn since they had milkshakes in s4), and he could also be referring to Mike's bassment beats, which has smalltown boy on it and that song is a gay song about a gay man leaving his homophobic town to find a new life and Finn said he wants Mike to leave Hawkins, or maybe it's the Wheeel playlist, Mike (Wheel)er, Finn made it for Mike, you use the wheel to drive and he put a song called "gay thoughts" in it because Mike is gay

Noah liked a byler edit yesterday (he already knows how the show ends since he's read the last episode script and he knows the endgames, so Mike and Will are gonna date)

Lukas from eyewitness is gay and has internalized homophobia and dated a girl to try and be normal, Mike is gay and has internalized homophobia and he's doing the same thing with El and Lukas has some parallels with Mike

these colors represent El, Will and Mike (i love how Mike is next to his boyfriend instead of in the middle) also i love that Mike wears make up (i have no idea what that thing does), Will is Mike's favorite <33

Will's love interest and boyfriend, they're gonna spend s5 together I can't wait, Mike and Will are still filming together and they're filming the final episodes, they're gonna be a team

Mike thinks he's unlovable but Will loves him like breathing <33, and he makes Mike feel loved instead of insicure and he understands him like no one else could and loves him the way Mike wants to be loved

Mike is wearing Will's clothes again, sharing clothes is a thing for couples

"Mike was always super protective of Will and Will always leaned on him, and you could never really tell if it was something romantic or just a really special friendship, and as it goes on you kinda realize that Will does.. am i allowed to say this?" we already know that Will is in love with Mike, why couldn't he say it? Why is it a spoiler? Because Mike loves him back and he confirmed that Will is still in love with Mike and he's not moving on, reminder that Noah has read the script of the last episode and he knows all the endgames (including Byler)

Mike's monologue made El angry and she knows he was lying to her, does she also know that Mike is gay? She knows Mike doesn't love her in a romantic way even if he tried to in s4

well now that we know that Will is still in love with Mike and that he's not moving on from him.. this leaker basically confirmed that Mike is gonna be Will's boyfriend (they made Will spell "lover" in the words game in the s5 bts pic)

So basically Mike is gonna go on a journey of self-discovery in s5 (accepting that he's gay and in love with Will)

Noah and Finn cried during the final table read , the Duffers said that they put a lot of time in the show to have a proper pay off and the fact that Finn said that the van scene will pay off in the end??

Noah saying: "Mike was always super protective of Will and Will always leaned on him, and you could never really tell if it was something romantic or just a really special friendship" Cara Buono saying: "Mike goes on his journey in s5" (self discovery, accepting that he's gay and in love with Wll), Millie dodging the monologue question, her becoming a byler after reading the s5 scripts, Noah and Finn both crying at the final table read, Finn saying that the van scene will pay off in the end (the Duffers told him that), the Duffers saying that they put a lot of time in the show to have a proper pay off, Mike and Will sharing clothes and Will's shoes in s5, Finn making that STurn gay playlist about Mike and Caleb confirming that they made s5 playlists for their characters

"Mike was always super protective of Will and Will always leaned on him, and you could never really tell if it was something romantic or just a really special friendship"

"bye Will, see you Will🥰"

THIS MIKE WAS ALREADY IN LOVE WITH WILL :(

"Mike was always super protective of Will and Will always leaned on him, and you could never really tell if it was something romantic or just a really special friendship" THIS Mike realized he was in love with Will, this part of the letter matches with Mike's thoughts so well, he wants things to go back to how they were in s2 when things weren't awkward and he didn't know he was in love with Will

"Mike was always super protective of Will and Will always leaned on him, and you could never really tell if it was something romantic or just a really special friendship" THEY'RE IN LOVE

"only love makes you that crazy sweetheart"

"crazy together"

"Mike was always super protective of Will and Will always leaned on him, and you could never really tell if it was something romantic or just a really special friendship" THIS Mike was already in love with Will and he thought he lost him forever without being able to confess to him :(

"Mike was always super protective of Will and Will always leaned on him, and you could never really tell if it was something romantic or just a really special friendship" this scene was always supposed to have romantic undertones because they're in love with each other

them playing "every smile you fake" while Will was faking a smile while dancing with a girl (he's canonically in love with Mike) them playing "and we kissed as though nothing could fall" while Mike hugging his mom while thinking about Will (because he's in love with Will), them using these lyrics was intentional

Karen Wheeler wanted to read lines for Joyce's play with Patty so she could kiss her, she's bisexual, she's queer like Mike

Byler looking at each other's lips <33 also Mike noticed something was wrong with Will before Will touched his neck because he was already looking at Will instead of watching the movie <33 i love the Byler and Lumax double date sm and Mike being a protective and worried boyfriend over Will

happy 7 years of this scene which was basically a love confession <33 in "st the first shadow" Henry was possessed by the Mindflayer (like Will) and Patty used the "power of love" (like Mike) to help Henry, and Will used the hand Mike held to communicate to the others to close the gate so basically gay love saved Hawkins <33

Mike has all the things he loves the most in his room, a wizard (Will) and buff men <33, and a buff male dragon for some reasons and he has Will's drawings in his room

the Duffers put "the Birdcage" on the s4 DNA board which is about a GAY MAN pretending to be straight in the same season where Finn said that Mike was trying to be as NORMAL as possible and where he was acting awkward around Will and in the season where he kept staring at Will's lips and where they played a song called "in the closet at rink o mania" when the camera panned to Mike and he started talking again", the closet is thin air atp, he's so gay

in s5 Mike is gonna go on a journey of self-discovery (accepting that he's gay and in love with Will),and he's not gonna try to be normal anymore Finn said that Mike was trying to be normal in s3 and s4 (he was trying to be straight), "he might be into some new things" (men), dnd is not new for him so the Hellfire Club was not new for him, the word "normal" has only been associated to the queer characters of st

the fact that Mike was trying to make things less gay but he made it gayer by acting weird around his "best friend" who he has "no feelings" for... like all Will wanted was a hug from his best friend of a decade.. homotron 7000 can't even hug his "best friend" anymore who may i remind you has NO IDEA WIll is gay and literally thought Will had a crush on a girl and made the painting for her and Mike got jealous and petty about it... oh and in s2 and s3 he had no problems with hugging Will or being physical with him..

if it was because they drifted away they would've made Will act awkward around Mike too but they didn't, It was confirmed by Finn twice that Mike has no idea Will is gay and he thought Will had a crush on a girl so why was he acting like that? Cuz he was jealous of the girl and gay panicking about Will's glow up

Mike uses his Will voice in Dustin's book and he's afraid of losing Will (and El), Dustin mentions all the things in his healthy relationship with Suzie (like having things in common and being honest with each other) and Mike can't relate to that (they spent s3 and s4 lying to each other) and he doesn't know what to talk to El about, this book was made by a professional writer who's a Byler shipper

in s2 in the shed scene they showed Byler while the lyrics said "if you say that you are mine" "i'll be here till the end of time" , they're the only fully romantic lyrics in the song

THIS was Mike's pov not Will's which is why Will is blurred out but after this Mike turns to Will and he looks happy but then Mike looks back at El and he looks sad and i think there are 2 reasons for that

1 he was scared of how El would react to the truth (he's gay and in love with Will)

2 he was trying to make Will jealous (cuz he knew Will was in love with him during that moment) but then he noticed that it didn't work and he got sad about it, at the airport he was also trying to make Will jealous by kissing El's cheek after he learned that Angela would be at rink o mania (and he thought Will had a crush on Angela), the parallels with Rovickie were intentional cuz we're gonna have 2 queer couples instead of one

they called the van scene the most heartfelt scene in s4? heartfelt means: from the heart, sincere, genuine, which means Mike lied during the monologue cuz they could've called that scene the most heartfelt scene of s4 but they didn't

Holly is gonna go missing but at least Mike and Will are gonna look for her together in the upside down <33 (and maybe that's where they're gonna confess and kiss?), they posted Byler, Jancy and Jopper for st day (and Robin and Vickie's chairs)

maybe we'll get a Byler rain kiss? because in August Noah posted a picture of Byler and a bts picture of him sitting on a chair wrapped in a towel and Shawn acknowledged a post that said that they wanted another angsty Byler scene like the s3 rain fight, hopefully they'll play heroes during Byler's first kiss

Mike said "I didn't know what to say" about his fight with El as if she wasn't literally begging him to say the words "I love you" AND Mike relating and nodding to Will saying "what if they don't like the truth?" Why wouldn't El like Mike "loving" her? She literally heard Mike saying it in s3 and she liked it, so why was Mike so scared of the truth? Because he's gay and in love with Will and he has abandonment issues AND internalized homophobia and he's depressed, the El scene has another meaning behind it: Nina waiting for her lover to come back but he doesn't come back and Nina leaving the station= Mike not being able to love El the way she wants to be loved and her breaking up with Mike in s5 (tho i think it will be a mutual break up)

in s4 Mike bit his lip while checking Will out, because he's gay and in love with Will

Mike listened to his boyfriend's heart in s1, he was so happy to see Will<3, I hope we'll get a scene where Will listens to Mike's heart instead, maybe while they're cuddling in s5?

all the s5 couples were next to each other at the end of s4 <33 (Byler, Rovickie, Jancy, Lumax and Jopper)

Mike used his Will voice a lot in s2, the Will voice is a softer voice he only uses with Will/ when something is about Will

Mike was trying to love El the way he loves Will (romantically) but it didn't work cuz he's gay and then he got all defensive cuz he's not actually in love with her but he's in love with Will, like with the "crazy together" thing and the "blank makes you crazy" and the shed monologue (which actually worked) and the s4 monologue (which didn't work)

the leaker (my time to shine hello) who said that Mike is gonna be Will's love interest got a thing right from Agatha all along that they said would happen (Billy dressing up as Maleficent) so this leaker is reliable and Mike is gonna be Will's love interest and boyfriend

one of the guys Mike was looking at had a rainbow flag on his book, just a funny little detail, and the clock was ticking (Vecna detail?), maybe the fact that he only likes boys will be what gets him Vecna'd?, Mike has been associated with rainbows before (and Will has drawns a rainbow spaceship when he was younger, he's canonically gay)

Mike caressing Will's drawings was so gay, new headcanon: Mike caresses Will's drawings while imagining it's Will's face, oh and i NEED to see people use this scene to transition to Mike stroking Will's cheek in s5 after/before the kiss

"I love you on your bad days" no he doesn't..

*cuts to Mike not even trying to comfort El at rink o mania and sitting close to Will even after they had a fight*

*cuts to all three of them looking upset in the van and Mike only looking at Will while El was crying*

*cuts to Mike comforting Will while he was possessed in s2, him taking care of Will, him being super protective of Will, him literally saying they'd go crazy together, him staying overnight with Will at the lab to make sure he was ok, him acting and talking softer around Will*

*Mike telling El he was already in love with her in the woods*

*cuts to Mike saying "that's not Will" in the trailer when he first sees El* (which is what he was thinking in the show)

*cuts to El listening to Mike wanting to send her back to the lab in s1 (and only changed his mind when he realized she knew where Will was), Mike calling El a weapon and saying "we're no use to Will if we're dead"*

*cuts to s4 Mike saying meeting El was simple dumb luck*

"I love you without your powers"

*cuts to Mike only focusing on her powers and calling her a superhero (superman) has he ever complimented something about her that weren't her powers or her looks? No, why? Because they don't communicate and aren't honest with each other*

like he was literally lying to her face bffr, stfu gay boy in denial, what a hypocrite..

Not to mention that Finn made a face he makes when his character lies before saying "i love you"

Imagine Will teaching Mike how to use a gun in st5 and their faces are really close to each other and he notices that Will's voice has really gone deeper over the years and he starts blushing and gay panicking about it (I want this to happen before they start dating), and then they start leaning in and they're about to kiss but Jonathan interrupts them and we have a Byler almost kiss before their first kiss and imagine Will trying to get closer the guy who hits on him in s5 and he starts bringing him to their party hang outs and the guy starts getting protective of Will and Mike starts getting jealous about it so they have a fight in the rain and Mike says "what? You don't need me anymore?" And that's how it's revealed that Mike knows Will lied about the painting and then Mike kisses Will and Will is shocked and at first he doesn't kiss him back so Mike panics and says he's sorry and has soon as he's about to leave Will grabs his arm and pulls him into a passionate kiss and imagine Will changing in Mike's room and Mike walks in on shirtless Will and he blushes and starts gay panicking about it, imagine this.. st5 starts and we get a Byler kiss but then it turns out it was just a dream but then we see Mike suddenly wake up and he sits up and he's sweating cuz he was the one who has dreaming of that and then Will asks if he's ok and we find out that Will is next to him in bed and we get a parallel to the s2 Miwi scene

#let Mike see his boyfriend's muscles, because Mike likes muscly men or men who are stronger than him (Will)

imagine this.. st5 starts and we get a Byler kiss but then it turns out it was just a dream but then we see Mike suddenly wake up and he sits up and he's sweating cuz he was the one who has dreaming of that and then Will asks if he's ok and we find out that Will is next to him in bed and we get a parallel to the s2 Miwi scene

Ted was cheating on Karen in the play, Karen was emotionally cheating on Ted with Billy, Nancy was emotionally cheating on Steve with Jonathan, Mike is emotionally cheating on El with Will

It runs in the family

The Wheelers are a family of cheaters/emotiona cheaters and Karen and Ted don't like each other and in the play they were just making out and didn't communicate at all (like mlvn)

i do think Murray was talking about Mike and Will but i think he meant it like experiment in a gay way (romantically) like Mike kissing Will, and it's so funny how he clocked them being gay within a second, he mentioned playing nintendo and Will in the van said he wanted to play nintendo with Mike

does this count as Byler getting Murray'd?

El's words "i think there is someone he likes cuz he has been acting weird" relate more to Mike cuz he was the one acting weird around Will while Will was just happy his best friend was there with him and this scene parallels Hermione acting weird around Ron cuz she likes him and they're an endgame couple, "Harry Potter and the chamber of secrets" was on the s4 inspiration board

the pineapple pizza scene was so queercoded for both Mike and El like Mike calling fruit on pizza blasphemous (against God) and not wanting to try it because he grew up in a homophobic and conservative town and he has internalized homophobia and prejudice but then when he tried it he said it was good (while the camera was on Will) while El grew up in a lab and obviously she doesn't have any prejudice or bias against things so she just tried it without complaining because Max told her that to understand what you like you have to try things on and she said it was good and they already used food to indicate queerness like Vickie with peanut butter (putting peanut butter on both slices of bread and called it a peanu butter monstrosity and she had a boyfriend who broke up with her and she likes Robin and will be her girlfriend in s5 and Mike's been paralleled to her and he's in love with Will) and she's bisexual, so basically Mike's gonna kiss Will first (and Will's gonna kiss him back), i also think Max is bisexual because she said "there's more to life than stupid boys" while Will said "a day free of girls" because he's gay and Mike said "i have an idea, boys only" because he's gay, they already used food for symbolism, Mike wants to feel needed, Will needs him and El doesn't

Noah's switch up is crazy cuz now he knows that Mike and Will are gonna get together since he's read the final s5 script "you guys are gonna get me in trouble" "am i allowed to say this?" and he used to say things like "BYLERBYLERBYLER" on Tik Tok and "yes, something went right for him" (for Will) he was definitely talking about Mike loving Will back

can we talk about Finn saying "yeah i'm super excited to see my gf in California but deep down there's some trauma but that doesn't came out"? why would having a gf give Mike trauma? and it's the same season where he said Mike was trying to be as normal as possible.. (he's gay and in love with Will)

when Joyce said "you're not gonna think it's gross when you fall in love" she meant " when you find a bf" but she didn't want Will to realize that she knows that he's gay and when Will said this he meant "i'm not gonna find a bf" (Will's boyfriend is gonna be Mike), if Byler wasn't gonna be a thing they would've given Will a boyfriend in s2 since Will was already in love with Mike in s1 but they didn't, while with Dustin they gave him a gf in s3 cuz Max liked Lucas instead of him and they made him move on from Max, they didn't do this with Will cuz Mike loves him back, Will's character arc is about getting romantic love even though he thinks he doesn't deserve it cuz he's gay andh he's gonna get proved wrong in s5

"and the guns shot above our heads and we kissed as though nothing could fall" they're SO gonna use heroes during Byler's first kiss in s5 (hopefully Bowie's version?), also Mike being protective of Will. he loves him so much <33 they played these lyrics while Mike was thinking about Will in s1 and when they used this song again in s3 they didn't use these lyrics cuz they're reserved to Byler

this video by teambyler explains Mike and Will's relationship really well

AIDS mentions in the show/ in the bts (mentioned in scenes with Mike and Will who are gay)

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grace-williams-xo · 6 months ago

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RAMBLING THOUGHTS AFTER FINISHING PART TWO. GONNA ADDRESS MY P1 THOUGHTS FIRST. SPOILER WARNING.

1 & 2: I think Debling could’ve worked in the second half, and I’m kinda sad Cressida didn’t get a happy ending. The Creloise fell of a CLIFF after ep 5 but I think it could still be saved

5: no cishet man has ever loved his wife more than Anthony Bridgerton I’m gonna be ill

6 & 12: kanthony’s absence was felt BAD in the finale, I think their reactions to LW were sorely needed. Also Jonny and Simone have both said they’ll be at every sibling’s wedding and stick around for years but they missed Francesca’s??? Also felt their absence too much then. They’re both booked and busy I think we’ll continue to only get a couple episodes a season from them

8: Francesca did get to thrive happy in pt 2 my baby I love her

9: I think they managed to disconnect the mondrich plot even further like 😭 once again, I don’t mind them their plot just feels very empty

10: Pen and Delacroix CONTINUE to be my fave duo I love them so freaking much and they can never get rid of it

13: Portia’s growth this season continued to be 10/10 I loved her and Penelope’s relationship it really showed what it’s like to be closely related to people you oppose and the process of needing to forgive and understand them for your own peace of mind

14: that was not how I was expecting Colin to find out about Whistledown

15: Marcus felt a little rushed in part two but I think I need to watch the whole season together to fully decide

17: this was indeed the longest 27 days of my life I got Covid day after it dropped lmfao

MY ~NEW~ THOUGHTS:

We finally got character development from Cressida and if they write her out I’ll be inconsolable (as will Jessica Madsen)

I hope they paid Golda Rosheuvel good for her feet exposure. Worth more than titties in this economy

I feel the need to tell everyone that £5000 in 1815 is in the realm of £500,000 today and we cannot brush over the fact Penelope has made herself the equivalent of a literal millionaire

Anthony has two moods ‘I’m obsessed with my wife’ ‘I want to win this game’ like it is comical how drastically different his facial expression is in the game of charades compared to pretty much every other scene

Anthony saying the marriage is perfect and not hard work and Kate being like BOY I will humble you,,,, doing the lord’s work I love her so much

At some points I felt like Francesca was fighting Anthony for ‘Violet’s least favourite child’ award lmao

John saying he’s off to look at the wainscotting was unfairly funny

Cressida in the red dress is even better than I imagined fuck even if she’s not gay then I am

Peneloise back together the universe is healing I love my babies all we need now is creloise lovers and peneloise friendship simultaneously I don’t like it being one or the other sue me

However much Brimsley is getting paid isn’t enough,,,, Hugh Sachs the man that you are

I adored Penelope’s wedding dress so much and as bitter as I am still about no kanthony wedding in s2, it felt kind of right somehow for Polin to be the first wedding we properly see in this show

Most of the costumes and makeup feel like they got worse,,,,, big ‘I hired a 14 year old’ energy. I don’t need historical accuracy but I would like a modicum of care and the costume/hair/makeup dept looking at a single historical reference from before 1850,,,, please

We all got the bi Benedict we’ve been asking for and I appreciate it, and recognise that he needed Tilley to explore that, but I still would’ve preferred if they first main queer experience was not a threesome

If they go straight into benophie in s4 (which idk, I’m so torn bc I feel like F, E and B all could work well next season) then I also feel like bi Benedict was just them throwing a bone for 5 mins but meant nothing

The CONTENTIOUS Michaela Stirling,,,,, I was undecided until I saw it but that was the definition of gay panic from Francesca and it worked so well I am so excited.

As your resident peerage expert, it is much easier for women to inherit titles in Scotland than England so I wonder (not that anyone on this show knows anything) if that was a reason they chose Francesca to be sapphic [general peerage info and female inheritance info if you care]

On the above, if they can canonically end racism with one marriage then they can end homophobia with one marriage as well

We all know Eloise was the easy and obvious choice to be the queer love story but part of me does kind of like them not taking the easy route, and them going something more unexpected, but that doesn’t mean I don’t want Creloise/Sapphic El like they had eight children let’s be honest

Finch’s sneeze and Phillips’s “now Varely! The bugs!” were unfairly funny

Everything Lady Danbury said to Penelope about suspecting her and what not felt very in character and you can fight with the wall idc

Did they tell us the name of Polin’s baby boy???

Hyacinth saying she thinks of Gregory as the family pet,,,,, girl you an icon walking amongst mere mortals

Predictions I got right:

Anthony didn’t kill Colin, but “are you gonna duel your own brother” lmao I was on the right track

I knew Polin would win the Featherington baby race and I love that for them (but why were Prudence and Phillipa pregnant most of the season, barely showing, Kate was showing almost immediately, and then in the epilogue the sisters all had baby’s similar-ish ages???? Give the writers room a calendar please)

I SAID FROM DAY DOT THAT THE FURNITURE THEY BROKE FROM SEX WAS A CHAISE I CANT FIND THE POST BUT I KNEW IT I FUCKING KNEW IT WHERE DO I COLLECT MY PRIZE SOME OF YOUR GUESSES WERE TRULY FUCKING COOKED

Okay that was too long if you made it this far I’ll make you cookie ily

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murfpersonalblog · 8 days ago

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IWTV S2 Tentative Timeline (Pt2c) - Unreliable Narrators, Armand & the Trial

Thanks for the response to Pt2b, @usuallydeepalpaca-blog! I really want people to talk to me about the IWTV timelines, cuz this show is SO confusing! 😩😭

"I think if you create the timeline with info the show doesn't provide, i.e. Armand was involved from the start, then you're bound to get it wrong."

Absolutely. I fully expect that I got some stuff wrong, which is why I said it's a TENTATIVE Timeline.

I've in no way said it's THEE CORRECT™ timeline, cuz chile IDKWTF is going on. 😅 I openly say what confuses me, questions I have, and how I come to the conclusions that I draw. I'm being as transparent as possible to let y'all know that I DON'T know. 🤷 The show doesn't provide EVERYthing, so I'm just piecing things together in a way that makes an iota of sense to me, following the logic of what the show HAS provided. The only solid details we have are diehard IRL dates, that gave us a time range when certain events can/can't happen. AFAIK I'm working with the same set of details everyone else has, until AMC gives us more info in S3+. And unfortunately, the 2 biggest unknown variables are Lestat & Armand, and to what extent they were/weren't involved in the Trial that got Claudia killed & Louis buried alive.

"saying Armand messed with Louis' memories re: the trial is also something not supported by the show."

The show obvs. wants us to assume that Armand made Louis hallucinate Sam guarding him in the theatre box (thus painting Armand as a "captive" along with Louis & Claudeleine).

Even if Armand didn't use the Mind Gift on Louis, he lied at least twice:

lies by omission: letting Louis think a hallucination of Sam was real

lies to Louis' (& Daniel's) face: going along with the premise that he was Sam's "captive" & Armand sat there the whole time thinking of a way to rescue Louis

And we KNOW this is a lie, cuz Daniel calls it out explicitly, asking how Sam can be "in two places at once," allegedly "guarding" Armand, but ALSO helping to torture Louis in the Wet Room.

Armand never denied or contradicted Louis saying Sam was in either place. Maybe Louis really did misremember Sam being in the wet room--the ONLY one who can corroborate all this is SAM--whom Armand ALSO lies on, throwing Sam, Daniel & the Talamasca all under the bus by saying the script with his handwriting all over it was forged! No honor amongst thieves I guess! 🤣

(Eff Lestat's POV in S3--when is SAM gonna give HIS POV of the Trial?!)

So I'm operating on patterns of behavior, and the logic that if he's deliberately lying about one thing (a VERY BIG THING, actually), then what else is he lying about? How are you "atoning" for anything, when you're just heaping lies on top of gaslighting on top of manipulation?

Armand has used Louis' obvious confusion to his advantage, just going along with whatever will make him look better & more sympathetic. Which ofc, is the exact same thing he does with the "Banishment" lie. "They gave me a choice...I could not prevent it" is the truth and a lie all rolled into one incredibly manipulative cocktail, cuz if it was just a simple matter of Armand selling Claudia out to save Louis, that would be one thing--but Armand KNEW the script planned LOUIS' death the whole time. The "seismic lie" about "Banishment" effs up Armand's whole defense.

Cuz Sam already wrote the script in April 1949 (and I said this is confusing, cuz if it's the WHOLE script, then this implies Lestat's half was written by then, too, and NOT in September after the Eiffel Tower crime--which means he was ALREADY in Paris & working with the coven; inc. Armand (which would also explain WHY Armand took Louis to the library so much--perhaps anticipating that Loustat would feel e/o's presence if Louis was around the theatre too much? But that doesn't explain Claudia)--omfg I'm confused). Wtvr--we KNOW that at some point b/t April & September 1949, Armand made his edits & directed the entire production--from Santiago to Lestat to Tuan's projections--ALL of it. And we know Tuan's projections started being made in June/July 1949.

Armand KNEW Daniel had been given the OLD script from the archives, WITHOUT Armand's edits & directions, and LET Daniel AND Louis think that was the truth--

--same way he went behind Louis' back and removed extra pages from Claudia's diaries that would reveal MORE of his shenanigans--

--and the same way he lied about Nicki (& Gabrielle) in 2x3.

The show ALSO provides us with quotes like this:

And this:

Which in retrospect make Armand look even more insidious, esp. when we wonder to what extend Louis' been "driven to form new conclusions about myself" when he doesn't even KNOW himself; let alone WHAT memories he has that are real or false.

It's so effed up, and it makes me side-eye all the insistence that LOUIS is the one mostly at fault, when he's got literal double-hypnosis Brain Scramblies from WWDITS. 😭🤦

Ofc there are unknown-unknowns when dealing with unreliable narration. But there are also known-unknowns, too, that also make Armand sus.

Sure, Loumand was away at the library in July (IF that memory's even real, Mr. "I Had A Hunch")--but how on earth would Armand have NOT known that the coven was working on the Trial right under his nose for MONTHS prior & after July--Luchenbaum sewing new barrister costumes & wigs; Tuan painting projections & testing new lens/film tech; and Sam writing a new script (when we already KNOW Sam can't multitask when his "head's in a hat")?

July is only ONE month in over HALF A YEAR of Trial prep. Louis was never around the coven to know what was going on--but ARMAND was; it's where HE lives.

Whose POV was it that showed the whole coven passing around Claudia's diaries? Whose POV was it that revealed Santiago being called Maitre in every scene that ARMAND was also in?

Armand was in the park with Tuan when Tuan called Santiago Maitre; and Armand was in the theatre with Sam when Sam called Santiago Maitre--so this is clearly either Armand's POV telling on himself; or it's AMC screwing with us.

It's TRUE that Turning Madeleine was the straw that broke the camel's back, as Armand was like I can't keep THAT a secret from the coven, too (and ofc he couldn't--they're VAMPIRES; they'd FEEL a new vamp in their territory). But Loumand's problems PREDATE Madeleine; the same way Loustat's problems predate Claudia. I blame Les for not dealing with Lou's BS, just like I blame Armand, cuz THEY are the Coven Masters, NOT Lou--esp. cuz Armand had 14 other vamps in his coven he SHOULD be prioritizing over Lou. The same way Loustat's guilty of being bad fathers (which they BOTH admitted to), Armand's guilty of being a bad coven leader (which HE admitted to).

IMO, all this makes any & all discussion about Armand's trustworthiness difficult, when his "seismic lie" throws EVERYTHING else he's done into question. Esp. since the show ALSO provides us with the FACT that Armand knew from DAY ONE that Claudia lied about "Bruce"/Lestat; and that Louis was a terrible liar & terrible with the Mind Gift; and that he'd ALREADY planned on killing Louis in 2x3! Armand knew from the get-go that he couldn't do EFF ALL to keep Louis & Claudia out of danger, and TOLD Louis so.

"It also ignores that Louis softens his participation in certain things because he can't live with the guilt of his full participation, e.g. Claudia's turning, which he continued to lie to Claudia about even during the trial and only accepted the extent of his involvement in Dubai"

The Trial Timeline's purpose is to pinpoint when the preparations took place, NOT to hash out how bad of a father Louis was to Claudia. 🤨

And it certainly isn't meant to provide a timeline for the events in S1 wrt Claudia's Turning--we already know the dates for all of that, that she was made in 1917. I focus on the 1940s in S2, and the European dates, NOT the NOLA dates. LOUIS did not participate in the Trial's preparations, ARMAND & LESTAT did. My timeline has ZERO bearings on Louis' guilt for not warning her, etc.

But on the subject of Louis & Claudia, I've cussed Louis out for not telling Claudia about Armand b4 (x x), I don't ignore it at all. I fully understand & even agree with Armand being fed up with dealing with Louis' BS. But HE CHOSE not to kill Louis when he had the chance, and it's obvs that whatever arrangement they made when they had sex in 2x3/2x4 allowed Louis to TRUST that Armand would keep "the secret" & keep Louis & Claudia SAFE from the coven. (Which is a BOGUS claim for him to make, when Santiago'd ALREADY peeped that they were lying about Lestat & being from NOLA, but wtvr). I've called Louis a naive idiot 1000x for overestimating Armand, putting his life in Armand's incapable hands--just like he would AGAIN by trusting him about "Banishment;" and AGAIN by asking Armand to wipe his memories in SanFran (and LIE by omission about Les saying "I love you, Louis").

"Louis remembers the trial, he remembers what was said and what Lestat showed him."

HOW can Lestat have showed Louis ANY memories during the Trial (inc. the Ep4 revisit), when Makers/Fledglings CANNOT read each other's minds???????

I love this show so much, but I effing hate this show--they don't even give us an answer, Daniel just moves right past it, like wtf are we supposed to do with that, AMC? There's plot threads, vs plot HOLES. Louis' TOO unreliable, Armand's a shysty liar, white savior Lestat to the rescue~~~! "BANishMEnT~!" As if Lestat's any less impartial?

Esp. when at least SOME parts of the Ep4 Revisit were OBVIOUSLY Scripted lines written by the coven to implicate Louis in breaking the Great Laws that Lestat allegedly taught him AND Claudia to follow?

Like, Louis HATES himself, and is quick to blame himself for things beyond his control (a la Paul, a la the Ordinances; "Can we be forgiven if we do not forgive others ourselves?"); so if one is determined to see him bad faith then of course one can easily pounce on him Florence DPDL style / Santiago style, and blame him.

(Esp. since in 1x4 we literally SEE Louis admit to begging & emotionally baby-trapping Lestat into turning Claudia--the revisit in 2x7 is more (melo)dramatic & extended, sure, but it does NOT contradict Louis' account in S1. So I get REAL confused when people say he lied about 1x4 or wtvr.)

Louis invalidates his perspective cuz he KNOWS he's an unreliable narrator--he spends 2x1 sobbing about wanting to remember & "get every detail right"--and ARMAND is there constantly tryna STOP the interview; having directly contributed to his already deteriorated (& inherited?) mental illness, by bending Lou's trauma into "a Lestat shaped-effigy" with all that "I will not harm you" bullcrap.

TL;DR: We won't know for sure what the Trial timeline actually looks like, unless S3+ revisits it with more context.

But as things stand at the end of S2, NO, I don't trust Armand as far as I can throw him, cuz there are waaaay too many instances where he's deliberately lied & obfuscated & omitted in ways to deliberately confuse the narrative surrounding the Trial--that go beyond Louis' already confirmed trauma, PTSD, mental illness, repressed/faulty memory, and guilty conscious.

If y'all want a timeline of S1 events, those have already been made by other people in the fandom (this one is goated).

I wanted to know what was going on in S2; so I used every single date and IRL reference possible, and put them in chronological order in a way that makes sense based on how I TENTATIVELY understand things currently; NOT how AMC has confirmed yet--if they ever will.

If anyone has more relevant in-show references & IRL sources we can cite, to help make better sense of S2 than I did, let us all know!

#the vampire armand #loumand #louis de pointe du lac #justice for claudia #interview with the vampire #iwtv tvc metas #i hate math

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warblogs17282 · 1 month ago

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I want to present another idea on how the scene where Blitz talks to his mother could go, and a bit on Blitz's self hatred.

But first, a little background.

It's very clear that Blitz still hates himself immensely for accidentally starting the fire that severely damaged Fizzarolli, and (very heavily implied) that also killed his own mother.

And I have three pieces of evidence that shows just how much Blitz hates himself, with it all tying back to the circus fire.

1: You're already aware of the fact that Blitz blacks out his face in pictures he's in with others, but it goes a bit further than that, he also did that to a picture of him when he was a child, interacting with the animals within the circus.

2. The fact that three out of the four memories we see in the trailer are of Fizzarolli, with the one exception also taking place in Ozzie's. Which shows us that Fizzarolli has always been on Blitz's mind a lot, even more so after the fire, and every time Blitz sees Fizzarolli in his mind, it just takes him right back to that circus fire, the source of most of Blitz's self-hatred.

There's another thing I'd like to add onto my point of 'Fizzarolli has always been on Blitz's mind a lot', that being, the fact that Blitz also clearly takes whatever Fizzarolli says to heart.

Which is clearly shown to us by,

Fizzarolli being one of the characters in Blitz's drug trip, and with him also saying, "You're gonna die alone, Blitzo!"

The real Fizzarolli at Ozzie's, saying "Last I checked, your love life is a pile of shit!"

And with Blitz very explicitly confirming that he took what Fizzarolli said to him during his drug trip and during Ozzie's to heart.

Sure you could argue Blitz only came out with that because he was drunk at the time, but I still believe that it shows just how much Blitz at least subconsciously cares about Fizzarolli and his opinions.

"Fuck, Fizz was right. I'm gonna die alone, aren't I? Just a wrinkly, old, withered, waste. Will you be there, Loonie?"

Fizzarolli used to resent Blitz, because he thought Blitz caused the fire on purpose, and seemingly just abandoned him. Which is why this memory comes back up again for Blitz, the sheer malice on Fizzarolli's face, the fact that the person Blitz cares about this much hated him just hurts so badly, and just because they made up in s2 e6 doesn't make that pain of the malice filled stare at Ozzie's go away, so while Blitz has indeed come a long way since that circus fire, he still hasn't forgiven himself for accidentally causing it, and all of those memories that we see in the trailer are just a reminder of that fact to Blitz, with them continuing to fuel Blitz's own self-hatred, even to this day.

Considering all of this, it's very clear that Blitz also hasn't forgiven himself for accidentally causing the fire that killed his own mother.

Finally, we can get onto my idea with all of that out of the way.

Pay attention to the floor in the next two pictures.

Notice the eye looking symbol in both of them? What that shows to me is that the scene with Blitz's mother also most likely takes place within the hotel, which also makes me suspect that the scene is a hallucination, not a flashback, and even if it's a hallucination of sorts, I feel like it'd still make sense that we see Blitz's before the fire self in this scene.

So, a potential idea I have that could go down in this scene is that the shapeshifter dude takes advantage of all of Blitz's self-hatred relating to the circus fire, by using a hallucination or something of the likes of Blitz's mother, playing into the fact that Blitz very clearly hasn't forgiven himself for accidentally causing the circus fire, and using that to crush Blitz further, by making the hallucination of Blitz's mother say or do something to make Blitz think that she'd hate him as well if she was still alive.

Which would tie into the scene where Blitz doesn't have his mother's necklace.

Obviously there's a bit of guesswork in this idea I came up with, but it still could very well happen in some way/form, which I'm really interested and scared to see how everything in this scene plays out.

#helluva boss #blitzø #blitzo #helluva fizzarolli #fizzarolli #sorry for just dumping you with a fuck ton of angst

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genericpuff · 9 months ago

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Was the Hera×Echo thing for real?! Was it like planned??? It doesn't feel like it was planned! It feels like Rachel just wanted to queerbait to gather more new readers wtf

yeah it's exactly that tbh

FASTPASS SPOILERS AHEAD !!!

like what more realistically happened is she saw people headcanon'ing Echo and Hera and went "yeah sure I'll do that!" without actually writing the fucking relationship.

This was even a problem back in S2 with Echo's character as a whole, she's introduced as this mysterious 'double agent' character who's almost definitely working for Zeus-

-but then aside from two scenes involving Echo accompanying Hera to the motel to retrieve Persephone's things and Echo warning Daphne that Apollo clearly isn't 'over Persephone' (because he had, y'know, barged into Hera's office demanding Hera's blessing) the whole "Echo is a double agent for Zeus" thing was only confirmed after Daphne was turned into a tree and Echo said "FUCK YOU ZEUS, I'M NOT GONNA DO YOUR DIRTY WORK ANYMORE!" which ... huh? Where's the plot? It feels like there was an entire story there that just got dumped entirely so that Hades and Persephone could play golf with diamonds.

Like this was presumably where Echo ditched her obligation to Zeus, but it had nothing to do with Hera, it was because she heard (I'm assuming from Thanatos) what happened to Daphne.

After that we only ever see Echo again when it's implied that her and Hera had some kind of falling out. No idea what over, maybe it was Hera finding out that Echo was a double agent, maybe Hera called her a slur, we have no clue what. But it's sorta just tacked on during an ongoing monologue about how Kronos has affected her.

The only other 'hint' we got towards it was Ares calling Echo Hera's 'girlfriend' but that doesn't mean a whole lot when we've literally never seen these two have more than two scenes together.

So now Rachel making them kiss feels more like her taking credit for writing a plotline that doesn't exist and was fabricated entirely in the audience's headcanon. And this is something Rachel does a lot, she basically relies entirely on her audience filling in the blanks for her nothingburger plot and then of course gets to take all the credit for being a "smart and inclusive writer". Where? Literally where the fuck is the actual writing?

Imagine if we had gotten a proper B-plot showcasing the relationship between Echo and Hera. Echo is working for Hera as a double agent and doesn't want to blow her cover, while Hera is suspicious because she worries her husband is up to something. Over time they work together, grow closer, Hera realizes that Echo makes her feel a kind of happiness that Zeus hasn't made her feel in a long time, Echo realizes that she can't keep lying to Hera about why she was hired and decides she values Hera's loyalty and respect over Zeus' because she has feelings for Hera now. Maybe Hera finds out about Echo being a double agent, either by overhearing a conversation between Echo and Zeus or because Echo outright tells her, and eventually it resolves with them finally admitting their feelings towards one another and Hera realizing that she's felt trapped in a loveless marriage that's essentially serving the same purpose as her union with Kronos, sacrificing her well-being for the good of a King. They kiss and Hera confronts the original perpetrator of her trauma, Kronos, ready to end the cycle of her abuse once and for all.

Like, the plot is right fucking there but Rachel keeps dumping it in favor of focusing on the boring ass heterocis nightmares that are Hades and Persephone, who get SO MUCH FUCKING SCREENTIME of just telling each other how amazing they are and how much they're in love (meanwhile we didn't even actually get to see or hear what Hera wrote in the letter to Echo, we have to just assume) but still tries to take credit for writing queer stories by just vaguely hinting at a queer relationship that has had zero development or actual screentime. It's Hestia and Athena all fucking over again.

It also doesn't bode well for LO passing the whole "bury your gays" test because Hera is literally marching to what she's expecting to be her death. So she's established as a bisexual character, just for her to be sent to her death, while Echo will undoubtedly get shoved out of the plot again.

And, I shouldn't even have to remind y'all of this, but Hera has been racist to nymphs in the past and Echo was her direct subordinate, her personal assistant.

It just makes zero sense to me why Rachel would suddenly force in a queer relationship between two characters who weren't traditionally gay in the original myths (once again removing the queer aspects of CANONICALLY LGBTQ+ GODS AND GIVING THEM TO THE STRAIGHTS INSTEAD) when Hera's story had more than enough to work with through her trauma from both Kronos and Zeus and her loyalty as the goddess of marriage that's kept her trapped in a loveless and abusive relationship. So now instead of having a subplot that could have been about the goddess of marriage realizing that no one should have to stay in a marriage that's robbing them of joy and the "sanctity of marriage" isn't worth being miserable for life, we have a subplot where the goddess of marriage who is racist to nymphs routinely cheats on her husband and now confesses her love to a nymph who we never even saw her interact with outside of two instances where it was simply a working relationship.

#lore olympus critical #anti lore olympus #lo critical #ama #ask me anything #anon ama #anon ask me anything

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chronicsyd · 3 months ago

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"oh you can't say 'Vi doesn't love Jinx like she does Powder' cause with that logic Jinx doesn't love Vi either"

okay, I'll bite. Jinx and Vi Both don't "love" who the other's grown into. Because after being separated for seven years they Both had misconceptions on how the other would turn out like. Vi thought Jinx would be still Powder who was simply being Forced to work with Silco, not that she was Willingly working for him and took the insecurities both Vi and Mylo bestowed upon her and made it her new name/self. Jinx, on the other hand thought that Vi would continue to love her unconditionally no matter How she turned out.

But they were both Wrong.

Despite Sevika telling Vi that Jinx calls herself "Jinx" now, she calls out "Powder" when the two first meet up again, most likely being overwhelmed by seeing her for the first time in seven years, but she continues to treat Jinx like the 11-12 year old that Vi Used to know, much to Jinx's dismay. But you can see the cracks start to form for Vi when she A) talks about her regret in even calling her "Jinx" in the first place and B) when the two are fighting the Firelights and she sees the glee in Jinx's expression in killing them, and it just gets worse from there on out for her. Because that's not the girl that Vi knew, she's changed. And despite everything Vi can't bring herself to love who this new girl is now. Yes, Vi has sat in denial saying she can "get her back", which is part of the problem, Vi's too stuck on trying to get "Powder" back and having things go back to the way they used to be (so yes, Vi doesn't "love" Jinx in the way that she does Powder, people aren't wrong for saying that). And the way Jinx deems that Vi Can "get Powder back" is too much for her, and Vi can't agree with what her sister Wants. She tries to compromise with her sister by "leaving everything behind" but Jinx's own demons don't trust her, and Vi can't see how much distress she's putting her sister in when she tells her to remember Mylo, Claggor and Vander (cause Vi's still set in her ways of "getting Powder back" during this moment).

But on Jinx's side, she claims that Vi "changed to". And it doesn't solely have to do with Caitlyn. She thought that Vi could bring herself to love who Jinx's turned into, despite all her flaws ("I thought, maybe you could love me like you used to. even though I'm... different."), Vi would always be there for her, because that's how Vi's been in the past. Vi's voice from Jinx's past were the thing that kept Jinx going all these years, she said so herself. Despite everything (Mylo's bullying, Powder's insecurities, etc.), the two always had each others backs growing up. The old Vi probably wouldn't've thought twice about hurting an Enforcer, but This Vi can't bring herself to shoot Caitlyn, she simply couldn't do it. And that's too much for Jinx to comprehend. I don't think Jinx can comprehend how or why Vi has let herself grow so attached to this enforcer that she's met merely a couple of days ago but can't show the same for Jinx herself.

Honestly, it's an issue for the both of them, they're both remembering how the other Used to be. And expecting them to still behave in that same way, and grasping with the changes that the other have made has been hard for the both of them.

So, keeping all that in mind; let's talk about "being opposite of what they were in S1" for the both of them shall we? (I'm also gonna add Christian Linke's (co-creator) thoughts from a few days ago as well. I have a lot more to say on Vi than Jinx)

Vi: The main change for S2 compared to S1 is her relationship with Jinx. She probably loses that last remaining hope/denial that she'll ever get Powder back, and with that grows a newfound determination to put an end to the suffering that Jinx has caused. And probably harbors anger and resentment towards Jinx due to her actions. Now deep down would I say there's still love for her sister? hard to say (she probably does in her heart, but her head is going to be leading her this season more than ever) but what I Can say with certainty is that outright forgiveness is off the table. Vi joins the enforcers because she feels what she's doing is right; whether or not you agree is irrelevant. Vi believes she's responsible in the "creation" of Jinx and that what Jinx has done is her responsibility, harboring Vander's words from her past (Christian goes on to ask "can you forgive a monster?" and I think that's what Vi's head sees Jinx as right now, the monster that she created). There's also a discussion of Vi's amnesia from League lore but I don't have certainty if that's going to be put into play this season or not, so something to keep in the back of your mind (for now at least).

Jinx: In S1, Jinx had an unhealthy codependent relationship with Silco due to being tormented by the demons of her past. But with Silco being dead and Vi being committed to taking her down she'll have no one to turn to in the way that she did with Silco. Sure, Sevika's there but their relationship will look nothing like it did with Jinx and Silco. Jinx will have to live for herself and discover her own identity and her own wants for her future; whatever that future holds for her.

#arcane #arcane season 2 #netflix #vi arcane #jinx arcane #league of legends #arcane discussion #deep thoughts #this goes on for awhile #Vi and Jinx discussion #arcane season 2 theory

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melrosing · 3 months ago

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poor gurm. hotd has it problems but I do believe the showrunners are trying to make a good product. unlike d&d who gurm should rightfully resent...no way there's not a bit of projecting in any hotd criticism from him.

i think it’s probably complicated, like I get the impression that the HOTD showrunners have gotten carried away with the changes they made in S1 and now it’s demonstrable that they just don’t really have the raw talent to spin this story into something new, try as they might. I don’t think they were ever wrong for changing things up in adaptation, F&B practically requires that - but they are to blame for the shoddy execution

but apart from that I’m starting to get the impression that for GRRM it’s more complicated than that. if I had to guess, I’d say that after GOT, he was clear with HBO that he wants more faithful adaptations going forward, and he wants his opinion to count for something, and that’s why he signed. like if he’s this mad about Maelor the Missing, how mad was he when a whole host of characters and subplots were missing from GOT and the rest were butchered?? I’m gonna guess pretty mad. but he had to surrender on that count because he hadn’t finished his books and D&D + everyone involved wanted the show to end.

HOTD was supposed to be different, and it sounds like it hasn’t been. Condal suggested that removing Maelor was only temporary, only now it looks like it wasn’t, and GRRM is annoyed about that - I think he feels lied to or left out of the loop, when that was exactly what he didn’t want this time. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was initially a plan to leave Daeron out similarly, because he was conspicuously unmentioned in S1 and the Daeron references in S2 were really shoehorned in seemingly at the last minute.

and GRRM has been saying he feels like perhaps he ought to stop caring and get on with the books (I would love it if he did) but he’s still so obviously annoyed about how his work has consistently been adapted poorly and that despite all promises he can’t do anything to stop it. especially as he’s apparently mentioned all this in connection with a growing consciousness of his age and his legacy, im gonna speculate that seeing adaptations like this is really grieving him. so i feel a little bad for team hotd because i think they’re really trying, but imo they aren’t doing a good job and even if GRRM’s expectations are too high sometimes, i think it’s been plain since the fall out from GOT that he is well worth listening to.

#ask #hotd negativity

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moonyardz · 20 days ago

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OBX S4 SPOILERS BELOW THE CUT

no bc what the hell was that

jj dying right as he was about to be happy??? all bc of actor drama???

making a 19 year old girl who's homeless / always getting shot at / starving for days at a time / under severe stress PREGNANT???? WHEN A FEW EPS AGO SHE WAS LIKE WHAT THE HELL JOHN B IM 19 WE'RE NOT HAVING KIDS YET??????

ik people care about rafe more than i do & wanted a redemption and whatever i could cope but that was the most rushed redemption arc ive ever seen. and it also looks like they're gonna try and make rafe x kiara a thing ugh

also what even was the point to the whole jj family history thing

anyway show should've ended at s2 or s3 at the MAX even though it sucked but at least it had an actual ending. s4 was so unnecessary for what it amounted to

#i cant even be sad bc im too annoyed #sarah cameron #outer banks #obx #jj maybank #rafe cameron #john b routledge #pope heyward #cleo anderson #kiara carrera

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gingergofastboatsmojito · 4 months ago

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Carmy had an anxiety attack and Sydney stopped it

The Bear | 3x3 | Hands

Let us not overlook the fact that this season Miss Adamu ALSO reverted another one of his attacks, just because we focus on her girlboss speech. OK? The girl bossing is great, sure, but that's not the point.

The point is that Carmy was having a stress-induced anxiety attack in the middle of service, which given S2 eps 9 and 10, was bound to happen this season, of course. And Syd stopped it. Very Sydcarmy material, IK. THAT IS THE POINT. But the B side of that point is that so far I saw NO ONE on Tumblr focusing on that part of this scene, unfortunately. Please make my day and correct me if I'm wrong. Show me a post where this guy is showed some compassion when analyzing this scene, and not a post just cheering up on her girlboss one-liner and butch-femme energy. It's like no one cares. Don't get me wrong, I'm ALL ABOUT that girlboss vibe too, one thing doesn't cancel the other one out in my book. But go ahead, show me that post that highlights his anxiety attack too when meta-analyzing that scene, I haven't found it yet. I'm not gonna lie, because of course I prefer to be right than popular: It pains me and infuriates me in equal measure that just because we all love Syd, some people seem to think that's some sort of license to completely disregard Carmy's mental health deprecating by the minute throughout the entire season, in a rather painfully obvious way, since he got out of that walk-in.

Anyway... Moving on. There's more.

Her words or even energy were not what calmed him down and prompted him to get out of the anxiety attack zone and collect himself, it was looking at her eyes. They locked eyes, held their gazes, and only then he was finally able to get it together. In that order, as can be clearly seen in the vid above. It’s the order what matters, he calmed down AFTER locking eyes for a moment, you can see the shift in his energy not as she was telling him she couldn’t babysitter him but AFTER looking at her with piercing eyes for a sec.

Anxiety attacks and panic attacks are not the same. I encourage you to do the research because if you really care you will and this post is not supposed to be educational, I'm not in the mood for that today, this post is cathartic for me. What I will say though is that patients with panic attacks also suffer from anxiety and can also have anxiety attacks. Some even find it hard to differentiate one from the other. Professionals don't. The difference is quite clear: The build-up, the symptoms, the intensity, the duration, etc. Carmy is a C-PTSD textbook case.

The stressor that triggered his anxiety attack this time around was the lack of HANDS, which can also be a metaphor for the lack of help Carmy gets. Syd is pretty much the only one who really helps him. Ever. He's surrounded by people, yet very alone. Granted, he's not the best at asking for help, and he's not the best leader either, and there's only so much Nat can do being in her 3rd trimester and all, etc, so like I said, it was bound to happen to him, and it did, and when it did, Syd put out the fire with her presence and her calm.

She didn't patronize him, he's not a victim around her, he's just himself. He's certainly not cool-relaxed Logan either, she's not his babysitter, and she's just as stressed out as he is, but she compensated his lack of temperance with her peace firmness, and he responded to it. Because even in the middle of an anxiety attack, Carmy never gets his eyes off the prize. HE HAS TO WIN THAT STAR FOR HER, NO MATTER THE COST → She's his star.

Let us please also notice the fact that the C person MADE YET ANOTHER APPEARANCE IN THE MIST OF HIS ATTACK. That's the guilt I mentioned HERE, eating him away inside and causing him apprehension in the least convenient moment because once an anxiety attack strikes, your defenses are down and whatever you are trying to bury deep down your psyche comes up full force. So she keeps contributing to his anxiety even when they're not even together anymore. Classic.

He also thought about the other source of guilt that is eating him away, his fallout with Richie and how his Cousin didn't forgive him yet, even when he apologized to him and told him he loved him.

Another stressor: GUILT.

OK. Thanks for coming to my TED talk about how Syd calms Carmy the fuck down every single time and I need him to do the same for her in the hallway in 04x01 and return the favor, or I will set FX on fire. Because in case you didn't notice, this post was actually about THAT.

Bonus track: To calm down he willingly tried to think of things and people that bring him peace, and not only he definitely didn't think of C at that moment, he thought of Nat, of his time in CA and in Copenhagen, and this time around HE DID NOT ALLOW HIMSELF TO THINK ABOUT SYD, WHO HE KNEW WOULD HAVE ENDED THE EPISODE ON THE SPOT. He deliberately didn't. But she showed up and did the trick anyway:

Remember to follow my tag #Gingerpovs 💋

#sydcarmy #the bear #carmy berzatto #sydney adamu #the bear season 3 #carmen berzatto #carmy x sydney #the bear fx #the bear hulu #syd x carmen #gingerpovs #sydcarmy endgame #the bear meta #sydcarmy meta #claire who?#HE HAD A FUCKING ANXIETY ATTACK IN THE MIDDLE OF SERVICE AND NO ONE SEEMS TO CARE

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chaifootsteps · 5 months ago

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Lightweights podcast interview: Viv says the rest of the story is about the ‘Goetic’ society (not even a word btw) with kings, other princes explored and stolas perspective in all of that, amongst ‘all these new characters’ Dear god stop adding characters woman. She also said if stolas died there would be no show.

jeez, Viv isn't even trying to pretend Blitz or IMP are the main characters anymore

this is the biggest criticism people have of the show and she just admits it's totally the case and she's doubling down on it?

and thing is, how the nobles work and what the stakes are for this stupid divorce is something the show should flesh out. but it should have done it long before now and just in the background of its B plot

it boggles my mind Viv thinks she's improved as a writer when she keeps doing everything backwards and her stans insist it's good writing when she fixes problems she shouldn't have caused in the first place

I'm so out after s2. I'm never bothering to watch an episode in full again, I'll just read summaries to see how bad it gets. I could care less about Stolas' family drama if it takes over the whole show

also 'there's no show without Stolas'. besides him usurping Blitz, way to kill the tension completely whenever he's in danger. he's obviously never gonna die, the audience is just with him forever

"I've improved as a writer. Also, there's no show without my favorite character that my audience is increasingly saying they hate."

Oh, Viv. Don't ever change...just kidding, it's obvious you never will.

#Anonymous #viv stuff #stolas critical #actual blog post #vivziepop critical

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queerfandomtrifecta · 1 year ago

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How Izzy’s Death Could’ve Made Basic Storytelling Sense

Just to be clear, Izzy is my favorite and I wanted him to live more than anything. This isn’t about that, and that is NOT why I hated his death. Had it served the narrative in a way that made even the most basic storytelling sense, while I’d admittedly have been devastated in a different way (i.e. the character whose queerness was relegated to the subtext in s1 and as soon as it’s textual and his whole arc is that he’s killed, but that’s a whole separate post…), but at least there would’ve been a correctly crafted arc from a surface level narrative standpoint that ended in the death of my favorite character. But that’s not what this is about. It’s is about how the show could’ve actually made the death actually make sense and work effectively. (Also, if you want my unasked for thoughts on how most of the existing plot of s2 (minus 7-8) could’ve easily been adjusted to fix the narrative as a whole and keep Izzy alive, I wrote this)

But. For those in the fandom insisting that Izzy HAD to die, including DJenks who has said as such in interviews (for reasons I do not understand), from an objective developmental editor standpoint, this is what I think needed to change to make Izzy’s death serve the narrative, character arcs and dynamics, pacing, structure, and thematic elements correctly.

It’s about 2K words just so you know what you’re gonna get into. Spoilers under the cut.

Issue 1. Izzy’s relationship with the crew and how they truly became his family this season totally vanished during his death scene. The same crew who he protected from Ed during the later, worse parts of the Kraken phase. The crew who banded together to save his life by hiding him from/lying to Ed about it, and amputating his leg to save him. The crew he saved by crawling up those stairs during the storm, hobbling out into the rain with one leg and shooting Ed before he could shoot a cannon ball through the mast and kill them all. The crew who called him “our dick”. The crew that then banded together with Stede’s half of the crew to him the leg and the new unicorn (aka the figurehead of the ship). That crew didn’t cry a SINGLE tear when he died. What?? Fang sobbed most of episode one and really lost it when Izzy got shot. Where was that when he died?? Izzy’s last speech to Ricky had something along the lines of: piracy is about belonging/family. We are Good. (Forgive me, I’m paraphrasing, but that’s the gist). Izzy truly did find his family in the crew outside of Ed. That was absolutely fantastic, especially in the first four episodes and episode six. It VANISHED when he was dying and dead.

The fix: To make the death impactful, effective, or even to make it make sense on a very basic acting and writing level, the crew should’ve been utterly DEVASTATED. At least heartbreaking music and like 30 seconds of everyone breaking down and holding each other. At least some of them crying and holding each other in the background when he was dying. Come on.

Issue 2. Thematically speaking, is piracy Good or Bad? Again, Izzy tells Ricky that they (the pirates/his crew) are capital G Good. Yet Ed has spent a lot of time maintaining piracy is capital B Bad. He tells the urchins as such. Here’s some money that I never had, now you don’t have to be pirates. Don’t be pirates. He doesn’t want Stede to kill Ned Low in cold blood. Ed just doesn’t want to be a pirate. Even at the end AFTER Izzy dies telling Ed he’s with his family (implied that this is the crew) and they love Ed, Ed LEAVES THAT FAMILY AND LEAVES PIRACY IMMEDIATELY. We’re left with him and Stede watching the family Izzy swore was Good and loved Ed sail away because Ed thinks piracy is Bad. Which is it?? The death served nothing in convincing Ed he could be happy with his found family on the sea as Ed, not Blackbeard, so the dying words were pointless. The thematic elements are all over the place (for the whole season but that’s another post) and that needs changing to make the death scene make sense.

The fix: Izzy should’ve told him he sees he doesn’t want to pirate anymore, he’s glad he’s found love with Stede because Izzy isn’t going to make it, go run your fokkin’ inn, you twat (affectionate).

Issue 3. Izzy died of bad planning and bad luck. Why didn’t they take the gun from Ricky? Between Spanish Jackie, Izzy, and Jim, SOMEONE would’ve thought about it. If not those three, someone else would’ve, but come one. One if not all of those three would’ve known better. Yeah, Izzy happened to be standing in front of Ed and he got shot instead of him, but you’ve gotta be REALLY looking for that to even be aware it’s what happened. It wasn’t even on purpose unless Ed strategically placed himself behind Izzy (which I doubt was the intent). Izzy didn’t position himself protectively/take the bullet for anyone on purpose. It was just happenstance and you only notice it if you’re rewatching and hyper-analyzing everything (which a lot of us, me included, in the fandom do, but casual watchers don’t. It’s totally unclear as far as the surface level narrative goes) Any sort of “heroism” is not acknowledged, it’s barely even noticeable in the shot. If that was the intent, it HAD to be clearer and acknowledged by the characters so the audience would realize the stakes and repercussions of clear choices. As it is, I don’t think it was intentional. If Izzy HAS to die, it should truly have rounded out his arc in a way that CLEARLY changed the course of the scene, leaving him to protect people he’d put in danger at the end of s1. It didn’t. It just read as terrible planning to the point of it being out of character for more than one character, and bad luck.

The fix: Izzy should’ve saved someone. I personally don’t like the idea of it being Ed. I’s have rather he save Stede (Not really, but it’s better than Ed I guess) But really Izzy should’ve died saving the crew. The crew makes the most sense to me, narratively speaking. He’s their figurehead, he’s protected the Kraken Crew for months and they should’ve been fiercely loyal to him, he blames himself for what Ed did to them (more on this later) so it makes sense for him to fiercely protect his crew. His family. Who should’ve been devastated that it happened because Izzy is the one character of the main three who’s managed to earn that status this season.

Issue 4. The death did not serve to move the plot along. There are literally zero things that would’ve been different for the end of the episode, save Izzy being alive and on the Revenge in his rightful role he earned with his crew as the captain, if he’d have lived. Ed and Stede aren’t partnering with Zheng to go after the guy who killed him in the next season. Nope. They got the offer but nah. They’re running an Inn. Which Izzy would’ve supported based on literally everything we’ve seen from him in episodes 5-8. The crew who Izzy protected fiercely and who viewed him as their leader? Not one tear during his death or the the funeral. Happily sailing away to do presumably more Muppet Treasure Island hijinks. No character development happened. No plot development happened. The season could’ve ended literally the EXACT SAME WAY with Izzy alive aboard the Revenge!!! No stakes were changed at all. No one was impacted enough for it to seem like it was even going to be a plot obstacle next season. It just happened, Izzy’s toxic situationship who maimed him multiple times over the course of months to the point of his leg needing to be amputated was sad for one (1) scene, then we moved on and did not seem sad at all at the funeral. What.

The fix: The plot should’ve been driven by the death. Ed and Stede (but especially Ed), and DEFINITELY the crew should’ve been sailing off plotting to avenge the death and defend piracy against Ricky and the British, especially with Zheng who lost her whole fleet. Ricky and the British are clearly (or so I hope, nothing’s clear here anymore tbh) the primary antagonist for the theoretical third season. No one should be running an whim-based inn for fun or sailing off happily into the sunset after the death of the most major character aside from Ed and Stede, who beyond proved himself a major part of something every character (his family) should’ve cared about this season. If he HAD to die, that death should have furthered the plot. But instead, it seems everyone shrugged it off with tears exclusively from Ed.

Issue 5. Izzy got shot in the left side. The side in which canonically NO ONE DOES FROM BEING INJURED ON IN THE OFMD UNIVERSE.

The fix: Yeah I know this is just too nit-picky but it was also just SO sloppy. Like just shoot him on the other side if he has to die, because this was a very memorable plot point more than once in s1. Like, come on y’all.

Disclaimer: Issues/fixes 1-5 would all need to happen together to truly fix it and make the death serve the narrative correctly. Issue/fix 6 is a totally separate route, which I personally hate, but at least the narrative would’ve made sense this way.

Issue 6. The idea that Izzy had to die so that Ed could be free of Blackbeard makes no sense at this point in the story. Ed already threw away his leathers and gave away his treasure to symbolically get rid of Blackbeard, and Izzy very sweetly encouraged him to follow the feeling that throwing out the leathers gave him. Izzy told Stede that he and Ed were good for each other. They balance each other out. Izzy is on good terms with both of them and their relationship, so Izzy “having to die” so Ed could flourish as Ed genuinely makes no sense and came totally out of left field.

The fix for 6: This one stands alone and is my absolute least favorite option, but if it HAD to happen without the 1-5 fixes, here’s how it could’ve made sense. If THIS is truly the way it was going to end, Izzy needed to be continuously antagonistic or avoidant to at least Ed and actually be shown holding Ed back from happiness until that last second. He wasn’t. He was so much better. Izzy clearly does blame himself (that’s for a separate post because I have lots of thoughts there) but to be fair they were both abusive in that relationship, for years it seems. Although I think by the beginning of s2, the power dynamic has clearly flipped and it was Ed who was doing most of it and Izzy was exhausted and knowingly “reaping what he’d sewed” (I don’t Blame Izzy for his abuse but I think this was his mindset) so the crew wouldn’t get the brunt of it.

If he seriously HAD to die because the writers just had to have it that way, those are the changes I think would’ve made the narrative work/make sense, served all the character arcs and dynamics correctly, and actually driven the plot as fictional deaths are supposed to, compelling things into a third season. Seriously, this season finale was a mess of baffling choices the most series finale season finale I’ve ever seen.

Anyway. There’s my unsolicited two-cents. Now back to hoping Izzy’s in the gravy basket waiting to be sea witch necromancied back by seagull Buttons in season 3. I love this show and I hate hating what I hate hating about it because it’s my absolute favorite and I can’t stand it because it’s fantastic and the worst thing I’ve ever seen. (Also, Izzy should’ve lived).

#ofmd spoilers #izzy hands #ofmd #ofmd season 2 #ofmd season 2 spoilers #ofmd meta #izzy my beloved #izzy deserved better #we deserved better #eyyyy djenks if you need a dev editor for s3 just hmu #david jenkins #ed teach #stede fucking bonnet #stede bonnet

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