#proship vs anti discourse

[catgirl-catboy]

Pro and anti shipper discourse reminds me of one thing, the way exclusionist communities are always meaner. Proshippers are so nice in my experience, and antis are scary:((

Yeah, it feels like there's one group that thinks they are able to play god over other people's lives vs another group that can understand that weirdness doesn't always correlate to morality.

I'm both proship and an inclusionist because I'm reasonable enough to know that I'm NOT smart enough to know what is going on in stranger's heads.

[eatbeidou]

Maturing is realising that proship vs anti discourse is actually really pointless, helps no one, and all it does is set this moral binary that prevents people from having good critical discussions and conversations about depictions of dark themes in fiction and media. The fact that the words "proship" and "anti ship" only exist online should already tell us how relevant and important this debate really is (which is zero relevance! No one gives a shit about this irl!)

[0veil-ablaze0]

I had a dream about a kingdom getting invaded and destroyed after that something about a made up anime about Pokémon-esque thing with animal dessert amalgamation fusion where the finale has these creatures trapped in a gigantic hourglass shaped jar on a stage then it led to a Tumblr proship/anti discourse where the anti seems to be dominant then someone mentioned smut fics being affected (for whatever reason) and then someone rebloged with a "womp womp" type response and something about whitewashed poliwhirl

[this-vs-that]

This question was sent to our inbox. If you’d like for us to post a This or That poll for you, send the 2 things you want to see against each other to our inbox and we’ll let the people decide which one they prefer. Everything will be anonymous.

[myfandomrealitea]

good lord i think I just spent an hour going through the proship tag and just....what have I even been believing my entire fandom life? like I JUST watched my friends try their fucking hardest to get a fic taken down on ao3 .... the site where I thought we all knew was FOUNDED on principles that I thought we all knew...

I mean. I'm not into most dark tropes. I dont like age gaps and the such but .... I don't think people should be harassed for it either? I'm just a little lost at why suddenly thinking people on the internet shouldn't get death threats over fictional characters or let's be real, RPF that is STILL imaginary, suddenly makes me....a bad person?

suddenly being struck by the revelation that . technically I fall into this category that most people hate. like my favorite ship lately can only be defined as toxic. I'm into toxic yaoi. and that's cool right. it's fine it's whatever I like what I like nobody gets to tell me what I should do. but then it's also like. wow there are people who think I should die for--not being queer and brown like the usual--but over a stupid fucking ship???

I dunno man. I'm just thinking about how no matter what anyone likes no one should be harassed and threatened for it bc a) we're all human and b) why do you like so much unnecessary drama. yeah.

word vomit but the tldr is I think I am experiencing what they call a shift(?)

This previous post of mine may be helpful to you. It details the origins of proshipping, the true definitions, and the mentality behind it. Your current mentality about creating free of consequence (in terms of harassment and similar things) is more or less proshipping summed up to a T. Proshipping is not inherently nor specifically about 'dark content.' It very much applies to bland, vanilla, typical ships and content also.

A lot of people like to get wrapped up in the 'dark content' side of proshipping, which often taken away from the true meaning behind proshipping. It becomes less about defending creating as a whole and more about a constant vicious cycle of defending specific types of creating and content. Antis in particular like to trap you in that cycle because they hope to wear you down and reinforce that proshipping is 'only' about that content while they try to trip you up with it.

Take your down. Do your own research and exploration. Come to your own conclusions. Nobody can force you into an understanding and nobody can or should force you to use specific labels.

[pelman]

Please reblog for more exposure! Also, this isn't an offer to start debates in my replies or reblogs. Express your opinions as loudly and perhaps violently as you'd like, but just to yourselves, not at one another. If you try to start an argument, regardless of what side you're on, I'm blocking you. This is just to gather Tumblr's general opinion.

Anyone on either side of the debate can interact with this post, given that this is a neutral space.

[starrbar]

I genuinely did enjoy problematic ships in a vaccuum until fandom got shitty about it. Now I enjoy them rebelliously. Congrats, y'all, you made me worse. :3

[ot3]

seeing the phrase 'actively reposts and comms fetish art' in a callout thread... oh it is so over

[aurynne]

my take on the fiction vs reality debate when it comes to being sexually attracted to young characters, presented with poorly edited pictures. eat my ass out in the replies but before you do, just know that having trauma doesn’t excuse any weird behavior.

[sableraven]

Does any POC proshipper find there are issues of racism or racism being ignored within in proship communities?

I’m interested in knowing others’ stories or if they ever notice this? I’m also including dismissal or invalidation when discussing racism in fandom circles as if it doesn’t exist or in the media you like and it being labeled as “anti rhetoric” when you’re just venting.

Feel free to drop your own stories or send them in boxes to me (anonymously if you feel safer to)

[sagegarnish]

So lately, I've been seeing a lot of little protective provisos before antis* post the EXACT TYPE OF CONTENT THEY'RE SUPPOSEDLY AGAINST.

It's starting to seem as if all the ppl they're fighting could just add a fucking disclaimer and we'd be instantly absolved of all our supposed transgressions.

It feels to me like many antis are actually starting to attempt to pull away from the censorious harassment mindset, while not also getting attacked. By their own friends and people "on their side".

I've seen a lot of "this is a VENT FIC ONLY", and "I do not condone anything that happens in this story" on AO3 in authors notes and tags.

I'm seeing a ton of "I intake media critically, & I hold my faves accountable" in carrds.

I am seeing stuff like "This is NOT MEANT TO BE EROTIC" in the authors notes for an extended explicit gangbang noncon fuck fic with a breeding bench and cum all over.

I am seeing antis who are simply adding little "i don't condone this, PROSHlPS DlE" to GENUINELY FUCKED UP CONTENT.

And that makes it okay to them! It's "safe" now!

Not all antific/antiship types, of course. But a lot of them seem to really think, "Oh okay, they don't condone it, that's fine then." As long as you say "Oh, it's a vent fic" it wipes the slate clean, and you're an acceptable person again.

It's very perplexing, because it's starting to seem like they really do just want us all to add "I don't condone it" before ALL OUR POSTS, otherwise we are "condoning it" by default.

It's so odd to me, having to explain oneself constantly, or be assumed to be a horrible person.

It's almost making me hopeful, because it does seem like the first step to realizing that it's all just imaginary stories. I hope one day they will stop assuming all creators don't automatically just approve of bad shit, just for writing something.

Without the disclaimers.

*Antis are defined here as "people opposed to transgressive/taboo fiction, and who advocate for harassment or punishment for writers/artists who create it, as well as harassing/punishing those who simply passively ship pairings or enjoy kinks"

[myfandomrealitea]

I'm proship leaning but when other proshippers say "I don't trust when someone says [person] is a pedophile because aNtIs!" when that person has DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE of being a predator. You're willfully ignorant at best and think that pedophile is something that only happens in darkfic or weird kink at worst. Like, no, it's not antis faults you can't condem real predators.

That has nothing to do with proshipping itself and everything to do with the actual individual. Its disingenuous at best to reduce an entire community down to a select few.

However, I will say its understandable that sometimes even "documented proof" is called into question based on who is involved in the discussion. Again, this has nothing to do with me being a proshipper, but people who align with the 'anti' principles have:

Sourced and spread around child pornography and non-minor rape and sexual abuse materials, often even using them to torment and abuse the victims themselves.

Fabricated evidence on multiple occasions in order to incite a witch hunt against innocent people and claimed ignorance even when confronted with their actions.

Harassed and doxxed and bullied people to the point of losing their jobs, requiring medication and therapy and suicide attempts.

Called people predators and pedophiles for a numerous array of reasons, usually the majority of which have nothing to do with actual predation or pedophilia.

In the instances where I have my doubts about someone being called out, I will privately endeavor to do as much of my own research as I can before making any decision or getting involved in any way. Which again, has nothing to do with me being a proshipper. That's what you should do, rather than blindly believing and following accusations.

People have a right to genuine doubt. If or when it extends beyond genuine doubt into wilful ignorance and denial, that is an individual fault.

[fangirllllpriv]

The dichotomy of “proship” VS “antiship” is weird to me, because it means completely different things to different people. I’m a bare bones example of an antishipper, because I don’t support adult x minor and I don’t support family x family. That’s an incredibly shitty thing to portray positively. And there are other kinds of pairings I’d rather not go near, but won’t hate on anyone for.

But someone else might call me a proshipper because I’m willing to ship characters in their late 20s with characters in their early 50s. Or hell, even some people think enemies to lovers is proshipping. There are blurred lines in what counts as proship in terms of how something is portrayed, too. What is the line between portraying something dark and “proshipping”, however you want to define it?

So here are some dynamics that might be considered controversial, let me know what you think in the notes. Remember, try to consider if you think these dynamics count as proshipping, not whether or not you’d be personally comfortable with them:

Adults with a large age gap.

“Minor coded” characters being shipped with adults. (That’s a whole other topic)

Bigot X Minority

Therapist X Patient

Prisoner X Guard

Enemies

Rivals

Adoptive siblings that met when they were older than 10

Two people that physically fight

Hero X Villain

Villain X Anyone

Two people that knew each other when one was a minor and the other was an adult but now they’re both adults (think Monica and Richard’s storyline from Friends)

Kidnapper X (adult) Victim

Someone X themselves from an alternate universe or from the future/past (the age old question about selfcest: incest or masturbation)

Human X Monster

I’m realizing I can think of so many pieces of non-derivative media that outright contain these dynamics.

I’m so tired I need sleep now

Edit: apparently I got the definitions wrong. Apply this to “what do you consider controversial”

[starrbar]

The irony of how much this actually disrespects rape victims tho.

I'm so fucking tired of people putting the language of harm reduction in their disgusting, abusive mouths.

Shut the fuck up about "victims" when we all know you ONLY care about your narrative. All the "bad" victims who "cope wrong" will be treated like garbage anyway. Your "support" is worthless and toxic. Go away.

[khepiari]

If I have had the energy and brain space, I would’ve written that book about the: ‘powerlessness to “you are proship” anti-behaviour among the young in a hopeless doomed capitalist world’ spectrum.

But I have lost faith in Academia 😌😌😌 so this will remain a post.

[mouthwashingdiscourseopinions]

this one might be interesting tbh

imo jimcurly is not proship. disliking it does not make you an anti, and enjoying it does not make you a proshipper

like sure it's not healthy but there are so many ships in other fandoms that are WORSE that aren't considered proship, so why are they?

Proship means not harassing someone for fictional tastes and that’s what it means. It doesn’t mean “pro-problematic” but we hate the truth now don’t we.