#proship vs anti

[vacantgalaxies]

If Character AI really is trying to remove romantic roleplays from its platform, I'll be the first to say it.

That will be everyone's future if people keep trying to censor any fiction they decide is too gross to exist. Censorship won't stop at the crappy AI platforms that waste energy and steal online art or "gross" fiction, it'll keep going until fiction as we know it ceases to exist. Even the most innocent and pure fictional stories like My Little Pony or Bluey will become unrecognizable. That's what censorship does.

"Except for-" No. There are no exceptions. If you censor one thing, no matter how gross or morally abhorrent you think it is, everything gets censored.

Also, censorship will always negatively impact LGBTQIA+ stories. Fiction or non-fiction, SFW or NSFW, our stories will get hit by censorship whether that was your intention or not.

This is the closest I'll get to getting involved with proship/anti discourse on here. I've stepped away from both labels because one goes against me being anti censorship, and for the other, I just don't want to get dragged into petty drama by people that don't know what a block button is.

[heyftinally]

Okay, I almost ranted about this on a reblog, but it can (and probably should) be it's own post.

Fiction effects reality and fiction does not effect reality are BOTH true.

Yes, I'm going to elaborate in the most unedited, covid-fueled rant I can, as tumblr intended. Hold on to your butts, grab a soda, and strap in.

First and foremost, I need all of the piss on the poor readers to stop their feral response typing - READ what I'm ACTUALLY SAYING before you start bitching about what you're pretending I said. Got it? Good.

This is going to involve nuance. Yes, I know, this website is allergic to nuance. Pop a Benadryl, you'll be okay.

Now, for real:

Fiction DOES effect reality BUT

Only in subtle ways. Absolutely nobody is going from your average normal Sarah to a cold blooded mass murderer because they played silent hill or something. People who become murderers always have some other motive, usually long term and/or severe (ie years of abuse, victim of trafficking, untreated psychological disorder usually paired with abuse, etc).

When I say fiction influences reality, I mean kids who grew up hearing Disney's Pocahontas say "you think the only people who are people are the people who look and think like you, but if you walk the footsteps of a stranger, you'll learn things you never knew you never knew" are more likely to be accepting of diversity than the kids who exclusively grew up on South Park and Family Guy.

I mean reading stories of real people's struggles with disabilities not being accommodated will make you more likely to notice inaccessibility in your daily life, and make you more likely to be accommodating to those who need it.

I mean reading about how a character was skeptical of or easily misled about something via the media can make you more critical of what you read.

Fiction effects reality because if you only consume one kind of media, we assume that's the only way things are. If we consume a vast array of media, we learn to explore different possibilities.

Fiction does NOT effect reality IN THE WAY THAT

Reading a fanfic (or even a published novel) with dubious themes is inherently going to normalize those themes in your reality.

Millions of people watched Hannibal, but cannibalism didn't surge.

Lolita is a rather famous novel, yet I've never heard of it being the sole reason someone suddenly condoned pedophilia out of nowhere.

Horror movies do not routinely make people murderers.

Fiction is not enough to make someone completely change their morals.

So where is the line?

Exactly where your critical thinking ends.

Because yes, there are people who watch shows like South Park and Family Guy and take the crass, bigoted, and otherwise truly vile jokes at face value, and find the humor in that. There are also people who watch it and see the jokes as hyperbole emphasizing just how terrible the people in the show are. Yes, some of this also has to do with the show writers, but again - your critical thinking is what tells you "is this show promoting being racist, or is it showing this character as racist to drive home what an absolute shitbag they are?"

The other aspect is your personal moral compass and ability to adapt.

Yes, I'm talking about echo chambers.

If you can NEVER accept being wrong, or if you refuse to change your mind on a specific topic (again, like racism), so instead of adapting you seek out people who are more likely to agree with you, you may find yourself starting to agree with other viewpoints that previously you wouldn't have.

And this can be good OR bad - if being friends with someone who agrees with you that racism is wrong, they may influence you to also start believing homophobia is wrong, and that's a good thing! But the reverse can also happen, and that's bad.

But media alone didn't do that - it was one of MANY contributing factors, including race, religion, disability (or lack thereof), income, how you were raised, where you live, and more.

So whenever I see people talking about "pro-ship" and "anti-proship", all I can think is

Shipping is only one tiny thing that media can influence you on - why is shipping your sticking point, but not murder?

You aren't capable or willing of engaging with the media you consume in EITHER direction.

Being anti/proship is irrelevant. If anything you're just telling me whether or not toxic purity culture is part of your specific flavor of media illiteracy. It means nothing of substance.

Instead of worrying about who ships what, worry about how your views and actions shape how you percieve and impact those around you.

[oceansarepink]

Just so you guys know, sending me messages like “don’t follow/pls block @ username they’re a pro shipper” and nothing else, does little other than confuse me.

My policy is that ‘proship’ as a label is just not on my radar, unless they have specific heinous shit on their blog. It has become a vague term and the discourse can become very unnecessarily nasty. This is solely my experience and I know the proship types can harass too but….I don’t wish to proclaim myself as either. I have only been harassed by someone who was an ‘anti’ trying to police my blog for not being ‘anti’ enough.

I’m probably not ‘enough’ for either side and I see proship and anti as a false dichotomy.

[artfightdramaconfessions]

Artfight but mainly this blog has made me aware of how much I've curated my online circle. Like I only ever see posts about how the proship vs anti thing is stupid and then there will be someone who's out there using proship like it's a slur

.

[fangirllllpriv]

The dichotomy of “proship” VS “antiship” is weird to me, because it means completely different things to different people. I’m a bare bones example of an antishipper, because I don’t support adult x minor and I don’t support family x family. That’s an incredibly shitty thing to portray positively. And there are other kinds of pairings I’d rather not go near, but won’t hate on anyone for.

But someone else might call me a proshipper because I’m willing to ship characters in their late 20s with characters in their early 50s. Or hell, even some people think enemies to lovers is proshipping. There are blurred lines in what counts as proship in terms of how something is portrayed, too. What is the line between portraying something dark and “proshipping”, however you want to define it?

So here are some dynamics that might be considered controversial, let me know what you think in the notes. Remember, try to consider if you think these dynamics count as proshipping, not whether or not you’d be personally comfortable with them:

Adults with a large age gap.

“Minor coded” characters being shipped with adults. (That’s a whole other topic)

Bigot X Minority

Therapist X Patient

Prisoner X Guard

Enemies

Rivals

Adoptive siblings that met when they were older than 10

Two people that physically fight

Hero X Villain

Villain X Anyone

Two people that knew each other when one was a minor and the other was an adult but now they’re both adults (think Monica and Richard’s storyline from Friends)

Kidnapper X (adult) Victim

Someone X themselves from an alternate universe or from the future/past (the age old question about selfcest: incest or masturbation)

Human X Monster

I’m realizing I can think of so many pieces of non-derivative media that outright contain these dynamics.

I’m so tired I need sleep now

Edit: apparently I got the definitions wrong. Apply this to “what do you consider controversial”

[septrose]

I'm gonna be an asshole.

Look. I'd say im neither proship OR anti. I'd say I really can't care what people do but perhaps thinking rape / incest is sexy is weird.

But.. being on fanfiction related reddits has made proships seem WAY more annoying holy fuck.

I swear they're obsessed with antis and them getting the upperhand.

Both sides are annoying sure but at least.. anti's like.. aren't creepy I guess. idk idc.

edit: since im dumb and forgot to say. Uh proship doesn't *actually* mean you like dark topics / romanticize them. It just means you are well.. pro-ship. You think people shouldn't be so strict on what people make / ship.

The better term to use would actually be darkship which means you DO ship those taboo stuff (ex; incest and age-gaps)

comship also exists but thats.. well in the name (complicated). think immortal x mortal.

The reason why I said that's what proship is was because im stupid but also because that's.. I guess the rounded term. Proship could mean either you're again censorship or you like taboo ships. unbrella term it seems.

[www-sys-net]

Anyways here's yalls unfriendly reminder that despite how fucking stupid the proship/antiship discourse is, I would still entirely be on the side of pro!

Curate your own fucking internet experience. I do not care if I somehow trigger you because it's not my responsibility to cater to every single person on the internet.

Especially when the term "trigger" is being used so loosely. 7/10 times you're just uncomfortable, not triggered. A lot of you all are so engrossed in online spaces that it's degraded your knowledge of actual issues.

And that's entirely fine. Nobody should ever force you to interact with content that makes you uncomfortable or that could harm you.

But your trauma or your discomforts are your own. They're not mine. And hopefully, they never will be. I can only hope that you can get the help you need to move forward instead of wallowing in self pity because it makes people feel bad for you.

Blocking is a right that you have. Nobody should be telling you that blocking people makes you weak or that you've somehow lost some fight or argument for keeping yourself safe as best as you can.

But when it comes to it, that's that. You can't impose anything on anyone else because you dislike it or because it makes you uncomfortable.

Also, if you're going to use a legally definable term, I'm begging you all to actually understand what that term entails. Cause it really seems like quite a lot of you are throwing around words and terms that aren't actually applicable, and then you'll ignore anyone who points out you're being incorrect.

Your trauma does not give you the right to impose your thoughts onto others. Antishippers have no right to use their trauma to force someone to censor themselves. Proshippers have no right to use their trauma to force someone to interact with content that makes them uncomfortable.

Disagree? Congratulations, you have the right to block us and move on with your life.

[mouthwashingdiscourseopinions]

this one might be interesting tbh

imo jimcurly is not proship. disliking it does not make you an anti, and enjoying it does not make you a proshipper

like sure it's not healthy but there are so many ships in other fandoms that are WORSE that aren't considered proship, so why are they?

Proship means not harassing someone for fictional tastes and that’s what it means. It doesn’t mean “pro-problematic” but we hate the truth now don’t we.

[lilyrose-terraharuka]

Antis, stop harassing Proshippers. Just block and ignore them.

Proshippers, block and ignore antis.

If you harass someone, you will get reported.

[catgirl-catboy]

So. You've just heard the words "proship" and "anti" for the first time. Or maybe you've been hearing them for a while, and you decided to look up what they mean. Or maybe you've just stumbled upon this post.

A quick disclaimer! I, the person that wrote this post, am a proshipper. However, I will try to present both arguments from an objective and unbiased point of view. However, there may be small mistakes from the antiship side of things, of which I am sorry. This post was made in good faith to help people who have never heard of this discourse before. If you're an anti and would like to give your two cents about my section on antis, feel free!

I have also linked several sources in the replies section, since links tend to fuck with the tumblr search engine. Feel free to look into those if you'd like to read more on the subject. (and please do before trying to correct this post, since there's a lot of misinformation going around on the subject!)

Antishipping:

Since the term antishipping originated before the term proshipping (even if the proship ideology existed first), it seems like a good place to start.

Antishipping is the belief that certain types of fandom content reflect badly on the people that create and consume it. Antishippers believe that if you interact with that content enough, your real-life morals get loosened, and you are more likely to want to commit the crimes depicted in said content.

Some antishippers think that people that already have a desire to commit said crimes are more likely to enjoy content depicting those crimes, and thus liking that content is a "red flag". I've seen both arguments about equally.

What do I mean by said content? You'll get a slightly different definition from anti to anti, but common targets of this logic include:Ships with a large age gap. Ships that have one character under the age of adulthood, and one over. Incestuous ships. Ships between real people like celebrities. Ships deemed racist/sexist/ableist/homophobic/transphobic by the fandom. Abusive ships. One thing I've noticed about antis is how sex and romance focused they seem to be. They rarely apply the same logic to fics depicting crimes such as assault and murder, despite those also being just as illegal IRL.

Proshipping: If antishipping is the belief that certain ships reflect badly about your character, proshipping is the belief that it does not.

There are a lot of misconceptions about the word proship, so allow me to do a quick tangent about what a proshipper is not:

Proship is not short for problematic ship. The term proship was named to oppose the pre-existing anti ship. It is pro as in for.

Proship is not a synonym for pedophile. Proship is all about what you think is okay to depict in fiction, not your real life sexual preferences. For instance, the proshipper writing this is asexual and incapable of having a sexual interest in anyone.

Proship is not an assertion of comfort for every type of problematic ship. Quite a lot of proshippers are uncomfortable with incest and age gap ships. The only requirement to be a proshipper is that you don't think someone is a bad person for writing/reading problematic fiction.

Why do proshippers think this? There is a variety of reasons among the community, but as a general rule of thumb they try to give people the benefit of the doubt. That person who writes incest fic could be hitting on their own family. But they also could be a victim of incest and write to come to terms with what they went through. They also could be an only child that finds the idea of a big brother having a crush on them hot. Without having an honest conversation with them, we have no real way of knowing.

I won't overshare, but the main reason I enjoy abusive dynamics in fiction is because I was abused in the past. I like the idea of finding catharsis in fiction, where characters that remind me of my abusers can grow and change for the better. I don't think that'll make me more likely to abuse the people close to me. I'd argue that since I understand what behaviors are abusive better, I'm actually less likely! (I had to unlearn a lot of shit.)

Problems with the antiship community:

A lot of antishippers harass people that make content for ships they dislike. Despite antishippers being upset at the perceived normalization that problematic ships might cause, a lot of them normalize using violent language to people they disagree with. A lot of antishippers are comfortable dehumanizing proshippers and have little compassion. Despite a lot of antis calling for better trigger tagging of fictional content, they rarely trigger tag their violent threats to people that make content they are morally opposed to.

A lot of antis overuse words like "pedophile" and "Child Porn" (tangent: the proper terminology for pictures of a (real, IRL) minor is CSEM or Child Sexual Exploitation Material. It is never porn.) in situations when they don't actually apply, creating alarm fatigue and difficulty communicating when an actual crime is being committed. Governments have asked antis specifically to stop clogging up their hotlines with reports of porn of fictional characters.

A small but dangerous subsection of antis will knowingly expose NSFW content to minors to show them what proshippers are creating. This is an IRL crime, and should be reported if you ever encounter it.

A lot of antishippers strech the definition of problematic to include ships they personally dislike. I have seen anti shippers bashing the relationship between a 14 y/o character and a 16 y/o character, despite that not being much of an age gap at all. This causes the rise of excuses like "sibling coding" (the implication that two characters that are not biologically related or are adopted siblings are siblings for found family reasons, and can't be shipped.)

Antishippers frequently call for problematic content to "remain out of the main tags", which would seem a logical request at first. They do not wish to know such content is being created. However, this makes it harder for the people not in the fandom to avoid seeing said content. Some people have fandom tags blocked for trigger reasons, and following the antis advice of not putting things in the main tags can put those people in danger. (Most proshippers put multiple trigger warnings on their content for people to search for and filter out.)

There is a lot of ableism in the antiship community, with two of their frequently used insults being "get help" and "proship freaks". Many antis frequently expect users who want to interact with them to check a "carrd" (an external website where they keep lists of who they do and don't want to see on their blog.) which can frequently be eyescorching and hard to read for people with visual sensitivities.

A lot of antishippers overshare information about themselves to dangerous levels. It is common for them to share their names, exact ages, and triggers. This could be used to hurt them by malicious trolls, and is not a good idea.

Instead of creating new websites where the rules cater to them, antis will try to bend (or just) the rules of existing websites that are more in line with the proship ideology. Despite believing these websites lower the moral character of everyone that uses them, the willingly choose to use them anyway.

Problems with the proship community:

(this is by far the section I am the least confident in writing, so if you would like to reblog this with problems about the proship community I did not mention, I will not be upset. I try to make this post as objective as humanly possible.)

Many critics of the proship community describe it as an "echo chamber", and there is some truth to that. There is a lot of pressure to be comfortable with the darkest of problematic ships, else you may get accused of not being a real proshipper.

There is also overlap between the proship community and several communities like consang, radqueer and transid. You have to do your research on who you follow if you (understandably) wish to avoid those communities.

There is a lot of hostility to "neutrals" of this discourse from the proship community. (Personally, I don't think neutrals exist. Either fiction makes you worse, or it doesn't. Its a binary issue. That being said, ID as neutral to this if you want, I won't stop you.)

This could either be a bug or a feature depending on who you ask, but I notice a tendency to prefer ship positivity over nuanced discussion or talk about dynamics/headcanons.

Quite a lot of proshippers have victim complexes (probably due to all of the suicide baiting) and will take any disagreement with them in the worst possible light.

[rebuzzbuzz]

I feel like people need to be a lot stricter with the distinction of what is comshipping, venting or just plain old dark content. Hear me out i have reasons for this, but they might be a bit jumbled and long so they go under the cut. Hope they make sense.

Warning: This is my opinion. No words are censored because i find self censoring stupid. If the discussion of various dark topics make you uncomfortable you should probably not keep reading, I am not responsible if you do anyway and it ends up upsetting you

Edit: i have been made aware of the fact that i got some terms wrong and fixed them ( i think ), i didn’t really do much research and went from memory from when this was still all over the place, I apologize for that but most of my points still stand

( thank you to the people two people who pointed it out, i really appreciate it)

What is my definition of a comshipping? The act of shipping someone with someone else that would be a unhealthy and/or toxic relationship in a positive light. Most prominent examples being pedophilia and incest

Apart from the fact that i personally do not consider any fictional relationship that is unhealthy and/or toxic a ship, i completely agree with the anti’s that you shouldn’t do that, and if you do it to cope with things that happened to you (wich i personally dont think is entirely healthy) do it privately wich brings me to my next point

What is my definition of a healthy ship? people in a romantic relationship that were both in the same age group when they met, not weirdly fetishized, and no other kind of wrong

Do i think that you cant explore your trauma in an very vivid and/or descriptive matter? No, i think you can and it’s possibly even healthy for you, what i do think however that it should be kept between yourself and those that you trust, because i don’t think it is save to put vivid descriptions of your mental or physical health and trauma onto the internet.

People are both cruel and a lot more brave to be horrible on the internet than in real life. And that can lead to bullying, death threats and the possible backtracking of your progress wich i personally find too big of a risk to take.

Including dark topics into into whatever creative projects you have, doesn’t immediately make it romanticized, sexualized or god forbid normal, nor does it immediately make you into a bad person.

Is there a point where it could be interpreted that way? Yes. Is that point the inclusion or mention of said topic? No. Otherwise Horror, thriller, crime and other similar media should also be in the same boat. The inclusion of a murderer doesn’t immediately advocate that you should kill your neighbors, the same way that the inclusion of a pedophile doesn’t advocate for you to go have sex with a child. As long it is explicitly clear that it doesn’t intend to portray the dark topic of choice as a good or healthy thing, you don’t have to say anything and can avoid said media. Can you point out if they maybe forgot a warning or tag? Yes. Can you tell them that they maybe represented it wrong or in a potentially harmful way? Yes but only respectfully, they might have genuinely not realized. Can you tell whoever wrote it that they should kill themselves? No absolutely not, wich brings me to my last two points

Proshipping: having the opinion to just let people be with what they ship and letting them have the freedom to create and consume whatever they like (including darker content) fair points are being made, but i feel like there has to be a line drawn somewhere if it could actually explicitly harm people ( people shipping something in a way where it can only be interpreted as encouragement of said unhealthy/toxic relationship dynamic )

Antishipping: being against ships deemed offensive of in some other way problematic same point as before, as long as the only possible interpretation isn’t bad thing=good i don’t really care, i have the decency to look after my own internet/content consumption. I agree that there has to be a line somewhere. People enjoying things in a way where i couldn’t harm anyone is not where it needs to be

I do not identify with either parts of this debate, why is that. The way a lot of the people i see handle it absolutely horribly and in ways i do not agree with and i do not want to be associated with.

Im not saying that there aren’t people that don’t make proper points or react appropriately, but the loudest part of them don’t, with the most common things i see being aggressive about it, dragging it into extremes and telling the other person to kill themselves, and i just dont want to be associated with that.

My thoughts overall in the pro vs anti discussion: frankly i find it immature. I’ll say it. It’s immature do discuss morals regarding fiction to the extremes that some do. Im not saying that some people dont make genuine good points, but most people use it as an excuse to be horrible.

If you’re only argument against something is “ it is bad so therefore you should kill yourself for even interacting with it” i dont think you have actually something explicitly against it in a way you know why, you just want to justify being a horrible person. I am aware that the sheer existence of various topics can be interpreted as encouraging from certain type of people, but those kinds of people will find anything to justify their doing, and their potential actions are not your fault. Horror movies do not encourage murder, but could be inspiration for a future murderer. The incest darkfic of some random person online doesn’t immediately encourage having sex with your family, but could be interpreted as “im not horrible for that” by actual people who do want to have sex with their family. Thats why its called an interpretation. The only things i find reasonable to do in this case are: not engaging, blocking people (it does not make you a coward you just don’t want thing you consider trash in your house), blocking tags and probably some more i cant think of right now

Conclusion:

Comships based on the earlier given definition are in my opinion bad and i do not agree with them, but i don’t think people who ship them deserve to die either.

Inclusion of dark content isn’t bad if done correctly, and you should just avoid it if you dont like it.

A lot of people have a horrible approach to things and i dont want to be associated with them.

I do not consider posting vent content a safe thing to do, but also not something you should verbally abuse people over.

The pro vs anti discussion about ships is unorganized, toxic and sometimes even just another excuse to be absolutely horrible, and i advice to just stay out of it

[skin-perambulator]

The internet is the only place where you will see someone call themselves an activist and their only activism is quite literally just quote retweeting people explaining the in-depth reasons as to why it’s completely right and just for them to be able to look at an anime child making an ahegao face and why you’re actually the one in the wrong and oppressing them on this matter and infringing on their rights.

[weaselbeaselpants]

Genuinely sorry for @alligatorjesie cuz that's not cool. For what it's worth I've seen lots of proshippers telling people to unalive themselves on the assumption that someone else was criticized them and therefor and anti and therefor deserving of the exact same treatment they themselves had been put through. Princess Weekes is a proshipper and she got death threats from other proshippers for daring to be 'anti-apoligist'. Oh, and, of course then yes! I did see antis saying weekes and Sarah Z should unalive themselves because they were proshipper-apologists. You are assuming every selftitled anti is the same kind of person who's sent you that awful virtriol. Where I believe you def had more than one person do that to you, those people are bad shit people who make the anti communities a shit place the same way the proshippers I just mentioned attacking Weekes and Sarah Z are also shit people ruing (I guess) your community.

My point is that these exact terminologies aren't helping people - especially hurt people. They're further dividing people from what are our allies because we are treating every anti/proshipper under the sun like the worse case scenario and not someone who's also lost in the terminology-semantics. These are terms coined to keep the everyfan happy and comfortable but they're being used by fandom-moms to dictate how we interact w everyone ever who disagrees about the semantics of categorizing ourselves and not the broader strokes of if we're actually bad people or not -and they're NOW being treated as boogiemen terms in our own little microcausom moral panics against each other because we're all too scared of our abusers to leave a community where people are still abusing us.

And I learned from my own fandommutual to block people not when I know they're a bad person, but when I know they're just going to be argumentative and hate me. Much love Alligator. Also I genuinely like your banner art.

[dablogename]

I really hate how braindead proship/anti discourse is because there are some legitimate questions regarding the relationships characters have in media that could theoretically happen in real and you can kind of just debate but instead some internet moron will be like SO IS IT PROSHIP OR ANTISHIP

actually something weird is that this proship vs antiship discourse has not penetrated the youtube sphere depiste that shithole being so drama hungry they would cling onto two dogs pissing each other as "insane crazy drama of the week that needs discourse"

there is literally only one video on the topic made by that sarah z person, and even then the youtuber was pretty "Centrist" breadtuber about it, so there wasn't much to it besides "yeah this is dumb but I'm sooo much smarter because I don't research the thing I'm literally making an essay about"

the only other time I've seen the word "proship/antiship" uttered out loud, despite apparently being "such a big discourse on the internet" was by this one booktuber, but the way they used it is like how kpop fans refer to people who either support their group or are against it [i.e antis = haters]

[eatbeidou]

Maturing is realising that proship vs anti discourse is actually really pointless, helps no one, and all it does is set this moral binary that prevents people from having good critical discussions and conversations about depictions of dark themes in fiction and media. The fact that the words "proship" and "anti ship" only exist online should already tell us how relevant and important this debate really is (which is zero relevance! No one gives a shit about this irl!)