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acorpsecalledcorva · 11 months ago

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Ok last night's research was wild and I would genuinely appreciate input and other thoughts on these ideas, especially if you've come across these before as I don't think I've seen them discussed. I was actually just looking into the idea of DID being a disorder or multiple realities as highlighted by Kluft but then I ended up in a rabbit hole.

Functional Dissociation of the Self: The Psychological and Sociological Self

So first of all I was reading this paper

Which is really really good, it's massive, absolutely huge, but incredibly thorough and explores how different kinds of trauma are predictive of different disorders and presentations across PTSD, DPDR, Dissociative depression, and complex Dissociative disorders.

But quite early on it mentions the work of Sar and Ozturk and this concept of the Psychological and Sociological Self, so what's that?

(this is just an abstract but it also appears in Dissociation and the Dissociative Disorders DSM V and Beyond so you might be able to read it in a Google books preview)

This paper kind of proposes a new idea, my initial thoughts are that the authors aren't exactly exploring new ground so much as redrawing the map, however, it does seem to be that their perspective has merit in application. The idea is that everyone has these two selves, the psychological self is that deeper true self, it's your creativity and your reason, all that behind the scenes good stuff that makes up you. The sociological self is much more influenced by culture, it's behaviour and social conditioning and belief, the things we project outwardly about ourselves.

If this sounds familiar it's because it absolutely is, it's all very Jungian and Freudian and the authors admit to this. Where they differ though is the amount of agency given to the selves. Neither is a passive observer but instead a duality of the self that works in parallel as a team. These guys are also not afraid to get political in their writing and highlight how a culture that is at odds with the psychological self can give rise to extremist behaviours through overelaboration of the sociological self. There's a great bit in one of their papers about the kind of person who swings politically from far right to far left, it's wild.

When it comes to trauma, they propose that dissociation arises when the Sociological Self attempts to bury the psychological self to protect it. For instance, in the example of betrayal trauma from a caregiver, the psychological self would be the part of you that is hardwired to remain attached to said caregiver, while the sociological self recognises the danger. The SS pushes the PS down to protect it from the external reality, however, the authors suggest that the SS is unequipped to deal with this effectively without the PS's help.

Interestingly, they also suggest that the SS attempts to deal with trauma by distorting the reality of it. It repeats a version of the trauma to try and solve, unsuccessfully, and everytime it repeats it changes so that the trauma becomes retraumatising. This is important because this is where the sociocognitive aspect comes in, because when we are unable to rely on the internal solutions of the PS we turn our attention outward. Fantasy proneness, then, would result in unreliable narration of traumatic events based on attempts by the SS to reconcile trauma from external sources. Pseudomemories. The trauma is real, and a hard copy is stored in the psychological self, but when the SS acts as a barrier to the PS then that core trauma is inaccessible. That's why it's important to focus on the feelings behind the trauma as those remain true.

In this model, alter identity formation arises from the discrete packaging of trauma that is set aside, and an attempt by the psychological self to connect with the external world and creates a new sociological self. This is very relevant to me as it pertains to how I experience alters, that there's a pool of fragments (discrete trauma packages) and, when required, an alter emerges from this pool and passes through my social conditioning to create the identity aspect of the alters sense of self. The biographical data of the alter is therefore formed from my sociological self's interpretation of external sources (be they archetypal or direct copies of media).

This disconnect of the PS and SS leads to an underdevelopment of the psychological self and an over development of the sociological self. This is what, in the authors opinion, leads to the paradoxical phenomena of a lack of neuroplasticity (no new solutions for trauma are found) and high adaptability (new alter identities in traumatic or stressful situations) found in CDD patients. It also means that the psychological self remains a child with a strong drive towards protection and nurturing, but therefore, retains it's sensitivity towards betrayal and therefore need for protection.

Now, this is the extra wild bit, because the authors propose that reconnection and engagement with the psychological self should be the primary goal of psychotherapy and if successful then the PS can rapidly develop and resolve trauma.

In this paper

The authors highlight the main barrier to access of the psychological self, the trauma self. The TS is an aspect of the over developed sociological self. It contains a distorted sense of reality, one of hopelessness and helplessness, and projects this reality internally. Think of it like a recursive version of Plato's allegory of the cave. The trauma self sits inside the cave, miserable, but afraid of the shadows on the wall and therefore unable to leave. Those shadows are then projected inwards to internal parts onto their own cave wall. This creates a bidirectional phobia of the internal and external world. Internal protector parts are hyper vigilant against a distorted view of the external world, and the host alter becomes phobic of the internal parts which they view as irrational, frightening, and dangerous (hello, this is me).

Now, this is the bit that seems insane to me and what I would love others opinion on, because the authors seem to suggest that persecutory parts hold the resolution skills for processing trauma, and if the host would only stop being prejudiced against them (like, actually, not like liberal white women who support BLM but lock their car doors when they see someone looking a little too urban) and let the persecutors do what they were originally designed for then recovery is incredibly swift and effective. One case study took 6 sessions. They also claim that patients have had no relapses up to 7 years after treatment.

So, this to me seems way to good to be true (or maybe that's my treatment resistant trauma self talking 😅). There must surely be counter arguments to this model on limitations or impracticalities. The first paper I linked seems quite thoroughly in support of this model, but I'm pretty sure that it's the first time I've come across it. Does anyone else know more about this? Has it been done to death and thoroughly debunked? Are there discussions by other big names in the field? Help a sister out

#syscourse #sysconversation #sysblr #system community #dissociative identity disorder #did system #actually traumatised #long ass post #sorry about that

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disassociation-culture-is · 9 months ago

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dpdr + suspected ocd culture is not trusting headphones and needing to always ask people if they can hear what you’re listening to, not because what you’re doing is bad but otherwise you think it’s playing directly out of your device and feel awkward unless someone can tell you it’s fine

#dpdr ocd culture is #depersonalization culture is #derealization culture is #dpdr culture is #depersonalization #derealization #dpdr #suspected ocd #I had a really weird thing about that in middle school #I swung wildly by the day between like. Fearing For My Life that everyone could hear my music and Not Caring. At All.#weird time #(not that you were asking but while I don't have OCD I do have obsessive compulsive tendencies..... just not disruptive to my life so 👍)#wire earbuds/headphones help with this usually #unless you have a shitty phone/phone case (like I did lmao)#mod cheese

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schizoid-culture-is · 1 year ago

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schizoid and dpdr culture is being terrified of dying while driving because you constantly derealize but being too simultaneously apathetic towards the thought to do anything about it -🌀

#🌀 anon #schizoid culture is #szpd #scpd #schizoid #schizoid pd #schizoid personality disorder #personality disorder #cluster a #cluster a pd #dpdr #depersonalization-derealization disorder

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adhbabey · 7 months ago

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I think it should be stated that crazy conspiracy theories, while dangerous in their own right, and is probably littered with dog whistles, that many of the people spouting out these conspiracy theories are likely experiencing delusions or hallucinations, and that cannot be stated enough.

So I highly recommend people notice the signs of whether or not someone is experiencing a delusion or break in reality, instead of immediately trying to go off on someone in this mindset.

Here are some common red flags that I notice, that sounds suspiciously like a delusion:

Fearing the government or think the government is secretly out to get them. While our governments can do horrible things to us, all in the name of national security, I see this as a red flag because its often random people in question. It's usually not someone who has done anything to warrant such fear. Just some guy in his basement or a random person online. You don't know these people, but I doubt a secret spy would be this paranoid or neurotic about something like this. It's a big red flag if they mention that the government is secretly out to get them.

That this world is a simulation or somehow fake. If this doesn't trigger you and you experience DPDR, you are a strong one. Unreality is a common trigger for many delusions. The idea that we're in a simulation or it's just like the matrix is just false information, and something spoke about for fun, like science fiction. But if someone is seriously telling you that we're all in a simulation, I'd see that as a red flag of a delusion. It's triggering, even for me.

The idea that pigeons aren't real and are drones of some kind, or that the government is planning to microchip us through vaccines or something. The idea that you're being spied on through secret cameras or that it's like you're in the truman show, or you're going to be experimented on because vaccines give you microchips.. These are all signs of paranoid delusions, and one of them is called Capgras syndrome. It is the delusion that your loved ones are all somehow replaced by imposters and it's pretty damn severe. I would take the idea that everyone is somehow spying on you, a pretty good sign that it's a delusion.

And there's so much more, but I recommend people just researching into other symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia, and be aware of what that looks like. It's important to be educated on this stuff.

And please, don't go out of your way to reality check them or to argue with them, that can often exacerbate or worsen the symptoms, sending them spiraling down into an even deeper delusional headspace. I know the idea that I'm somehow lying or delusional tends to send me into a paranoid headspace, so don't do it. Don't argue with these people, just stay away from them.

And yes, it's common that a lot these things are jokes or memes or just a part of popular science fiction culture, but be aware regardless. You don't know if someone's actually being serious or not. And whatever you do, don't call a stranger you don't know, "delusional", these are just red flags and signs, not automatic reasons that someone is experiencing a break in reality. You don't know them, so just be cautious.

And yeah, a lot of conspiracy theories are anti-semitic, or racist, or ableist, or whatever. But that doesn't cancel out the fact that many of the people in question are also likely mentally ill. It doesn't erase the fact that normal every day people are also mentally ill. Negative or problematic behavior doesn't erase the fact that someone can experience delusions. I'm not excusing that behavior, but I am saying to be more cautious and critical of the fact that half of this stuff sounds like a mental illness.

TLDR; It is important to be aware that several common conspiracy theory buzzwords are red flags of paranoid delusions, and this post lists out some of those red flags in details. Don't reality check anyone, or you could make it worse, just be cautious and disengage.

#babey posts #paranoid delusions #conspiracy theories #red flags #delusions #be aware #psa #please ask me to tag anything that triggers you guys in this post #i understand its a heavy topic so please go drink some water and take a few minutes to ground yourself #if you have any comfort items or otherwise please snuggle them #delusions are fucking scary and triggering and i recommend you guys be gentle with yourself right now #and if you are of sound mind and don't experience delusions please be critical of these things in the future #you'll never know when you bump into someone like this

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the-fallen-collective · 4 months ago

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Why won't you change your view on endogenic systems? /gen

We just don’t believe you can be a system without trauma. The debate of being plural (not a system) without trauma is.. iffy. Considering Tulpamancy is a closed practice, and those who actually practice it don’t call themselves systems (or at least shouldn’t) and the DSM 5, which is the diagnostic tool, quite literally says it is not part of cultural or religious practices.

And being a system is a symptom of a few disorders (DID, OSDD1, UDD) which are much more than just being a system. It’s not fun, it is a disorder, it disorders us, quite horribly. And people deciding to just “identify as a system” or “become a system” (and don’t tell us people don’t say system and only say plural, most endos we’ve seen say system and I think we all know where they’re basing it off from) is mocking and insulting to trauma disabled trauma survivors. And ableist for faking a disorder. I do believe some “endos” could be systems who don’t remember their trauma and have been groomed into thinking a certain way, or that others may have a different disorder which feels similar, but not a system (say dpdr or something that causes a lack of sense of self) and they were just misinformed. However, there are those that just straight up fake it.

I’ve seen being a system compared to being queer way too many times. It is not comparable. Being queer is an identity. Being a system is not. Being a system is not a choice, it was a defense/coping mechanism our brain chose during childhood to deal with trauma. Being queer is an identity, albeit involuntary, but still an identity. Comparing the both of them also implies that being queer is a disorder. It’s hypocritical to not say so. If being system is an “identity” as well as queer is, as many non traumagenic systems think, then that would mean, since being a system is a disorder, being queer would be a disorder too, which is just a very homophobic/transphobic way of thinking. And ableist.

I hope this helped explain our view a bit. We don’t typically generalize groups, but it’s hard not to with endos, seeing as probably around 98-99% of the ones we’ve seen (and we’ve seen.. quite a few) have used “system” and “DID/OSDD” and use medical terms for actual systems.

#-🍃 and 🗝️ and 💎#answered asks #syscourse

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persmo · 6 months ago

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Not that last anon, but there are endogenic systems in the OSDDID community. There are systems who had trauma after their system already formed which can cause a dissociative disorder to develop. There's also like what I think that anon's case is, there are DID systems with endogenic headmates who are spiritual, thoughtforms, etc.

This especially goes for OSDD, which isn't even inherently a system disorder. OSDD is just a catchall in the DSM-V for disorders that don't fit DID, Dissociative Amnesia, or DPDR.

What you are doing is closer to gatekeeping in that sense. Even if you think their experiences are real, you are excluding systems from dissociative resources for something as arbitrary as origin that may not even impact how the system is now if the later trauma was severe enough.

This is also where a lot of fakeclaiming that targets OSDDID systems comes from. It starts with "we don't want endos in our community" then spirals into "this is how you spot an endo". This is how fictives started to be viewed as a faking red flag (the term "fictive" came from endogenic systems), too many nonhumans make you fake (endogenic systems and otherkin have a long lasting overlap), as well as knowing too much about your system (endogenic systems don't usually have dissociative barriers unless something happened later). Even if you aren't fakeclaiming explicitly, encouraging an origin binary and excluding endogenic systems does contribute to the problem that loops around and effects all systems.

Also there are a few cases where you can win a debate with a fakeclaimer. Some people are genuinely misinformed, and if you have the energy, ability, and sources, it can be worth to send a message to try.

Ok so, I know I already said and established that I wouldn't be answering anon things regarding this topic, but I need to clarify something cause, again, you didn't read correctly or you didn't get the point of our post/reply, so I'm gonna explain in detail every point your talking about in this message and also some extra things hoping that people would stop making themselves incorrect ideas about us and maybe do a purification regarding followers (Cause damn, we are getting a big hate even though we aren't famous or shit like that)

So please, if you really want to hate us and really want to know our stand read this whole and then comment or reblog-respond, because if you don't read it whole we're just gonna block you and don't count your opinion

First paragraph topic: Endos in the OSDDID community

I didn't talk about that topic, but you're bringing it out so I will now, and I hope that you and other people can understand my point in this. I know there are endos in the OSDDID community, I know there are cases in which someone has a dissociative identity disorder and also have plurality in some other way, if that's what you're trying to explain me well... You didn't explain anything that I didn't know already, with the last anon I said if their case is they having DID and also having a cultural-spiritual base plurality I know they exist and I don't fakeclaim them because they have OSDDID, so why would I fakeclaim them?

The specific point that I have it's the way they talk and/or present those parts that aren't because of the disorder, but I'm fakeclaiming those parts? Of course not, cause I know they're a different presenting way of plurality that have nothing to do with the disordered parts, and I won't talk about them because our speciality is disordered dissociated parts, not plural parts in general, also cause I don't know almost anything about the topic and, most importantly, don't know last anon case

So with this I hope I clarified this point, if not, tell me and I will explain (Like with every point, so this state applies to all)

Second paragraph: OSDD not being an inherently a system disorder

With this I have a lot to unpack cause we entered in our hyperfix and knowledge field. For this part I'm gonna do multiple paragraphs cause there's a lot to say and explain

First of all OSDD is a disorder, that's why it is in the DSM-5, I'm not sure if you claimed that OSDD is not a disorder or just is not a system disorder, so I clarify this just to make sure

Now, let's see what the DSM says about OSDD, ok?

The DSM V says:

The DSM V TR says:

Besides that info it's good to know that OSDD can be classified in various subtypes, 4 to be exact, and why it's important to clarify the 4 subtypes? Cause only one of this subtypes is capable of being a plural disorder this being OSDD-1 (This subtypes includes from OSDD-1a to OSDD-1d)

So if you're gonna say that OSDD isn't inherently a system disorder you're half correct, because it depends in the subtype you're seeing, if you're talking about OSDD-1 when it is, but if you're talking about OSDD as a whole and not seeing the subtypes, well you're right, and in this case when I talk about OSDDID community I talk only about OSDD-1, it's just that it's better and shorter to just say "OSDDID community" rather than "OSDD-1, P-DID and DID community" don't you think?

And for the OSDD being "just a catchall" for the other dissociative disorders... Well you're not completely right and let me explain. The OSDD stand for "Other Specified Dissociative Disorder", just in the name says it's for specifying other thing because it doesn't enter to the other criterias, and yes, that make OSDD a comodin like diagnosis, but if you read below that you'll find the UDD or "Unspecified Dissociative Disorder" and this diagnosis puts more info about dissociative disorders that doesn't fit in the other criteria including OSDD so even though OSDD can count as a catchall UDD too, and you're not talking about it

So with this information I hope I got clarified this point

Third paragraph: Gatekeeping and excluding

First I'm gonna address the gatekeeping thing.

If you're saying I'm gatekeeping by saying "endos DNI", then I am, because that's one of our boundaries, getting mad for someone else boundaries because it doesn't align with you it's horrible in my opinion.

If you're saying that I'm gatekeeping for excluding endos when I talk about systems and plurality in my blog, then I am, because this is a disordered aligned blog and I'm not gonna be talking about endos, and because a lot of endos want to make everything about themselves I don't want them to interact.

If you're saying I'm gatekeeping because I'm not talking about endos because I don't want, then I am.

If you're saying I'm gatekeeping because I exclude endos that are also disordered well you're wrong, I'm not doing that, if they want they can interact ONLY if they keep comments about them being endos away from our blog, I'm not saying they have to stop being endos cause they have a disorder, just that comments and things about being endo don't put them in our blog, outside our blog talk all you want about being endo cause we don't fucking care

It's just our preference, our boundarie, I don't get why people get mad about it when I'm not even attacking endos, damn we're not even anti-endo, we said it the last post and we'll repeat it. I hope this explains it because, from what I understand we're not gatekeeping nothing, we're just setting boundaries, and if you're mad for that is a you problem, not ours, but if we're gatekkeping please come and explain in detail how

Now about the exluding allegations... Simply we're not ???

I'm not excluding anyone from dissociative resources, I don't know were do you take that conclution, because from our words don't. We can't decide and stop every random from the internet and exclude them, that's imposible, we're not in position to exclude anyone

Again, if you have disordered plurality we don't care if you also have another kind of plurality, if you have disordered plurality and/or you experience maladaptive dissociation go ahead and use the resourses, after all the resourses are for people who strugle with complex dissociative disorders

But if you're not disorder nor experience maladaptive dissociation then why would you want to use resourses for people with CDD??? (No, I'm not counting neither Simply Plural nor Plural Kit in the dissociation resources because, one, their aren't resources just tools, and two, the creators said that SP and PK can be used for any reason that you please including disordered plurality)

If someone has a disordered plurality, a trauma disorder or a complex dissociative disorder then go ahed and use that resources, because the resourses are for you, we don't care if apart from that you have another type of plurality and if you do well good for you, you're still able to use that resources because one, I can't literally stop you, and two, the resources are for you

Fourth paragraph: Fakeclaiming (A binary excluding way and disordered targeting)

This is the most long paragraph you put so I'm gonna talk part by part just to make sure you don't miss any point at all

I don't understand what you mean by "This is also where a lot of fakeclaiming that targets OSDDID systems comes from", but if I'm getting it correctly you said that the exclusion and gatekeeping that I'm doing (Again, I'm not, but you're assuming and claiming I am) encourages the fakeclaimin towards OSDDID systems which in my opinion sounds dumb and let me explain why

Fakeclaiming is not a term that the plural community invented, fakeclaiming has been existing for years before that, but the use of the word was popularized by the plural community. Fakeclaiming disorders have been happening way back before the internet even existed, now a days fakeclaming has been evolving and having new stupid criteria to fakeclaim

Endos fakeclaiming, disordereds fakeclaiming, singlets fakeclaim, everyone fakeclaims, actual plural fakeclaming is mainly towards OSDDID systems and yes, some things of the fakeclaimings is because endo fakeclaiming, but the fakeclaiming to OSDDID has been existing way before the name change to DID/OSDD, the fakeclaiming criteria just evolved and changed

So yeah, for me saying that the fakeclaiming or at least a lot of fakeclaiming towards OSDDID systems come from endo exclusion seems dumb, but everyone has different ways of viewing this and I respect that, I'm just stating my opinion and view of things

Now, you can't say all OSDDID systems act the way you say, first saying that they don't want endos in the community and then making guides to spot endos, because if you're gonna generalize I'm gonna do it to with endos too. We don't do guides to spot endos because that obsessive, wrong and kinda sickly, we just don't care at all about that, endos sometimes say explicitly that they're endos and I believe them so I don't interact with them and sometimes block them, that's all, I don't think that's wrong if it's my prference

It is obvious that I cannot speak for the entire OSDDID community cause we're just some random system online, we're just talking about ourselves in this case. Do you know the amounts of OSDDID system that we have blocked because they're horrible? No, you don't, because you don't know us and our point of view in this topics, in reality we hate almost all the internet OSDDID community (generalizing)

You're explanation of what its seen like signs of faking is correct, and we actually can't say anything for that part, just to clarify that we know singlets that have never encountered the plural community nor plural things in the internet and do that fakeclaiming (we know it because they have done it to us), so no, it's not actually encouraged by the endo fakeclaiming/exclusion like you say

Now about the endo exclusion and binary origin. All that I'm gonna say in this point is about us and our point and stand of all this things, I'm not talking about the whole community, just for us, because to talk about the whole community another post

AGAIN, we're not excluding endos in general, in that case we're excluding all systems besides close friends. Saying that in this blog we don't want endos here is to be safe and prevent fights and things similar to this and other more horrible actions to our person becasue we don't feel comfortable with endos atacking us

In fact if we met endos that are opend minded, respectful, patient and have an attitude that we like we're not gonna exclude them, actually if they want we're more than willing to befriend them, so no, we don't exclude them

It's like neurodivegents prefering not to interact with neurotipicals, they're not excluding them, just they don't feel comfortable around them, but obviously if they found a neurotipical they like they'll can befriend them, we're in a similar position with endos

And in the same manner of exclusion it's the binary origin thing. We only care about origin when talking about our preference and experiences, it's like the cis and trans, it's a binary system about identity, but for some reason that is not offensive and this is?

Like I don't get your point, we're not excluding via origin because we're not doing it at all, pointing out the differences is important to recognize and understand the diversity around systems, and also know it to understand the subcategories and have personal preference, just like us

Again with the allegory, saying that neurotipicals and neurodivergents and different it's ok because even though the two are humans they have some differences and that's ok, and even with neurodivergents are subcategorys and some people may have preference to one or another, but that doesn't make them bad people because it's just a preferencem of course sometimes this can be related to discrimination and things like that, but not always, and when is about discrimination you will be a bad person, but if just for preference it's ok

And now with the last sentence, doing the exclusion (we don't, but you say we do) it's countribuiting to the problem that affects all systems, and here's when I ask how we're countibuting to doing harm to people?

We're not excluding, perpetuating harmful thoughts or points or view to others, we're just setting boundaries bassed in our preference, how we're countributing to harm around systems when we're not atacking no one and we're not doing any harm?, in fact are endos and pro-endos who are atacking us and are trying to make us the bad guy when we're not even mentioning them in a malicious way, damn we're not even a big account or something, we're just starting this blog and people already have us in a blacklist when we did nothing wrong, the only thing we did is have and set boundaries (that people keep breaking just to see cool or for some other reason) and respond attacks and comments against our person just because we don't have the same opinion

If we're gonna talk about problems that affect all systems let's do it, but do it in a right way, not making assumptions about someone and trying to prove some random point when you don't know if the person your talking to is in your side, sometimes remarking things in a condescending way when someone already agrees with you and claiming that they're something that they're not makes the person don't be in your side anymore

I'm not in the plural community as a whole nor in the system community as a whole, I'm not talking or saying things about systems in general, I'm just talking about OSDDID systems and the OSDDID community because for me that's comfortable, because I know about that topic, because that's my comfort zone, and if I'm a bad person and huting others just by having preferences, boundaries and prioritizing me without attacking anyone then I'm a bad person and I do hut people, but we're not and I don't get what's the fixation of people telling me that I'm that villain they're making up with their assumptions

Because if we're gonna talk about hurting others endos have hurt us A LOT way back we had our medical recognition of DID and knew the meaning of "system community", and if that's not a problem that affects all systems because I know that have happend to many OSDDID systems, that and some more horrible thing done by endos to disordered systems then I don't know what it is. But I'm not here to talk about the bad things endos have done because that's not the blog purpouse, because I'm not here to talk about endos, is the people that are making us talk about it and it seems a bit hypocrite to us

For this paragraph I have nothing to add, so again, if I didn't make myself clear or something like that you can tell me and I will clarify it

Last paragraph: Win debates with fakeclaimers

Yes, I'm aware sometimes fakeclaimers are just uninformed people and you can win the debate with them, but many of them just want to mock and attack people, specially within the OSDDID community, that's why I think is best just to block them and don't give them attention, and we made clear in our posts about fakeclaiming that it was our opinion, you don't have to agree with and that's ok

If you want to do a debate with a fakeclaimer go ahead, I respect your patience because I don't have that and you will be helping

We just give our opinion, we just stated our point of view, we don't have to be perfects like no one. And it's not like the post have a big reach, it doesn't even have 50 likes, so it's not like a lot of people is seeing it

Sometimes we do tend to debate with fakeclaimers and uninformed people in general, when we're in the mood and we have the sources and references in hand, we had won various debates because we're informed, but that experience also teached us that most of fakeclaimers don't even care about it so we made a post about that

Extra notes: Some other points not deeply talked about in this post

Ths post already extend so much that we see prudent to just stop it here, even though we have a lot more points to talk about and clarify. We're planning not only to update our intro to be more specific and so we can avoid problems like this in the future, but making some other post talking about various of the topics seen here and a bit more about our points of view

If you want us to clarify some points or things, ask us things or something like that go ahead adn will do it gladly, also, anon of this post we're be gratefull if you say something about this text we did for you

Like a extra note I'm gonna say in short words our stand with endos, we're oct-endo, in other post we're gonna expalin it deeply

That's all, if you read the whole thing thx and see you random people on internet :)

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