#all for a syscourse post....

[ecos-syscourse]

Dear syscoursers, the Atlantic ghost crab was once described as "An occult, secretive alien from the ancient depths of the sea."

[beastwhimsy]

FINALLY drew every single person in the system after half a decade of knowing I have osdd. IT ONLY TOOK 5 YEARS.....

(please don't refer to how we look as character designs!! thanks!)

notes! - I've been evaluated by multiple professionals and they've all gone ya you have guys in there. good luck man - I can remember experiencing pretty damning symptoms since I was like. a wee lad. - I'm guy number 2. hi! waving!!! - sunny and moon don't really have a concrete age but can be considered adults - there are 10 girls, 7 guys, and 3 people who aren't either - some of these guys formed based on some childhood friends I had - there are 6 fictives overall. most of them consider themselves their own people and don't identify much with their source material - the most frequent fronters are robin, sunny, phoebe and francis - if you have any questions please feel free to ask! if anyone says anything nasty I won't respond. I love pressing the block button

[chxrrie-bxmb]

when will pro endos learn that when they break our dni, we're just gonna instantly block them. we aren't clicking your links. we aren't putting any of our time and effort into diving down your rabbit hole of misinformation and lies.

you can't be a system without trauma, deal with it.

-- Rin 🥽

[space-sabotage]

damn, who knew being anti-endo would be on the same level as being racist or transphobic?

pack it up poc and transgender systems, the endos are taking you too

[sophieinwonderland]

An Endogenic Response to a Message Towards Endogenic Systems

Trigger Warning: Death Threats, Harassment, Cyberbullying, Ableism, Slurs, Hate Groups

@loafofcatbread

Aren't you one of the moderators of Aspen's server? You are, right?

You all specifically came onto this website to spread hate. Aspen said she wants to normalize cyberbullying endogenic systems. And you're using our tags to post hateful messages to our community because you want to hurt us. That's your intent in being here. Causing pain and suffering to other people for existing.

Why deny it and try to play victim?

Amazing how you accuse us of sending slurs and death threats while Aspen is calling us "Schizo." Specifically while bragging about using it as a slur.

And... you know we can see your reblogs, right Loaf???

And for death threats... we can also see YOUR LIKES!

Yes! We see you, Loaf! Just like we see Aspen!

We see your hypocrisy. We see your bullying. And we aren't going to tolerate it.

I don't know if any endogenic systems have been sending death threats or slurs in response to you all invading our spaces with the intent of hurting and bullying us. I haven't seen this happening, and I would strongly discourage anyone from stooping to your level.

But I DO know what you all have been doing.

You and your disgusting pals aren't allowed to play victim here! Sorry.

And for your talk of misinformation, I've yet to see anything even resembling a source for the claims your side have made. Anti-endos love to assert thing. They like to say whatever nonsense they can come up with as if it's a fact and then expect people just accept it.

But they can't cite in professionals who can back them up because none exist.

And when pro-endos respond with sources, the modus operandi of you all have been to throw slurs and ad hominems as Aspen did when she was sent a link to my post debunking her video.

Maybe you think you're educated because you got all your information of plurality from a popular Tiktoker with an inflated ego and no actual background in psychology or any sources to support her claims, but that's not education. That's indoctrination.

You and your hive have been indoctrinated.

Finally, over the years, I've seen countless traumagenic systems be attacked, bullied and fakeclaimed for being pro-endo, mixed origin or presenting in ways anti-endos deem unusual. And anti-endos, by their nature, encourage fakeclaiming. They encourage invalidating systems. And this has increased stigma of traumagenic systems, normalizing hate against systems of all types.

You are NOT an ally to traumagenic systems.

You're an ally to a hate group.

And it's so sad that you can't even see it...

[lemonxlimee]

DID is not a trauma disorder. Nor is it a plurality disorder (those don't exist).

It's a dissociative disorder. It's commonly associated with trauma but you don't need trauma to have it. Just like you don't need trauma to have any other dissociative disorder.

[thelunastusco]

Oh my fucking GOD.

The ISSTD information about CDDs is NOT about system accountability. It is NOT about "well you have to make sure that a demon system member knows they're in a human body and anything they do will also hurt them too". The ISSTD isn't supporting the personhood of system members.

"This translates to--"

Stop.

Y'all are literally jumping through hoops to convince yourself and others that the ISSTD sees systems as different people sharing one body if-that-is-how-someone-identifies when that is flat out not the case. Will some providers be good about it? Sure! There are definitely providers who accept systems as different people if that's what they say they are, but that is ABSOLUTELY NOT what the ISSTD suggests.

The DID patient is a single person who experiences himself or herself as having separate alternate identities

It can be helpful to use the terms that patients use to refer to their identities unless the use of these terms ... would reinforce a belief that the alternate identities are separate people or persons rather than a single human being with subjectively divided self-aspects

the patient is not a collection of separate people sharing the same body

patient should be seen as a whole adult person

You can't "translate" these quotes away as being "actually they mean--" because no, no they don't mean anything else. They mean exactly what they say: that plural folks coming in are not separate people even if they say they are, but one person with fractured aspects of their singular psyche.

Yes, you can agree to call them "people" or "individuals" if that's what the patient (singular) calls them, but they are ONLY alternate identities of ONE SINGULAR person, not their own people, and if calling them "people" makes the patient see them as separate people different from the One True Singular Person you're talking to, you are NOT to call them "people". The idea that a system is actually different people in one body is a false belief.

You are not a collective. You are, in their eyes, One Person. Period.

Yes, parts of the ISSTD sound really close to what the plural community would call system accountability-- the idea that "clinicians must hold the patient accountable for the behavior of any or all of the constituent identities", for example. But that is not system accountability. That is "you are one whole adult person, not separate people, and so accountability must be maintained as if you were one whole adult person regardless of what you believe or circumstances".

Yes, parts of the ISSTD sound close to accepting system members as separate people-- specifically the passage of "countertherapeutic for the therapist to treat any alternate identity as if it were more “real” or more important than any other". But again, that isn't because they see individual system members as their own, separate, whole people sharing a body. It's because "all alternate identities represent adaptive attempts to cope or to master problems that the patient has faced". Meaning, they are pieces of the One True Singular Person that have formed to cope or deal with problems, but are still that One True Singular Person nonetheless. So, sure, they're all "real" because they're all actually that One Person.

And for some systems, that might be how it is! For some plural folks who aren't systems, that might be how it is! But under no circumstance should the plural community allow themselves to be fooled into thinking that the ISSTD actually allows for the plural community to ever see themselves, in any way, as separate people sharing one body. It doesn't, and too many providers do not and will not see their plural patients in that way. Even if they mirror your language and play along. They can and will stop doing so, if they think that your system ACTUALLY considers themselves separate, unique individuals instead of "self-aspects" of One Person.

You can "translate" the passages into anything you want, but that doesn't change what is actually meant. Glossing over the fact that it flat out denies personhood because some other lines sound almost like community rhetoric changes nothing. We can't believe systems are literally talking themselves (and others) into thinking that the ISSTD sees systems as fully realized individuals when it says in plain language it doesn't.

We knew reading comprehension was dead, but c'mon.

What horrifies us is the potential that younger or less savvy systems will see that shit, accept it, and then walk into a therapist's office thinking "oh the ISSTD says to accept us as different people if that's what we say we are so it'll be okay". When that sort of thing USED to get plural folks put into mental hospitals against their will. When that sort of thing STILL winds up with systems being discriminated against, and in some cases denied treatment like trans health care.

Most singlets in the psych field DO NOT see you, a system, as different people sharing the same body-- even if they use your language. You HAVE to be careful and screen potential therapists. You HAVE to interview people to make sure that they will respect your system, and treat you/you all as you want to be treated. The ISSTD is NOT your friend, and providers who follow it will by and large NOT be the people you want to see, unless you're the sort of plural/plural system who sees themselves as "subjectively divided self-aspects" of One Singular Person.

The plural community has been fighting this bigotry for DECADES.

It has NOT stopped.

[chaos-in-one]

Daily reminder not to call traumagenic systems who aren't anti endo, endogenic. It's fucked up.

[our-inspire-verse]

I always feel so out of place even in system communities. Does anyone else relate at all??

Like, idk some system memes are cool and relatable bc obviously not everything is gonna line up, but so much of it doesn't click with us.

We've almost never been put off by the voices, we all wanna communicate, we don't think less of each other or think 1 deserves more front time than anyone else, etc. Idk, there's so many memes about denial and eating each other's food and all this distress. Which is i know, a major part of many system's lives. Part of what makes a meme is the repeatability and a lot of systemhood IS struggles in that area.

But what about systems who do everything right (in the sense that we have healthy coping and such)? What about systems who unconditionally love each other and dissociative barriers are something we work around instead of fighting? What about the systems who love the voices?

[sysconversationalist]

I don’t know if this is helpful to the community at large or anything, but I wanna talk about in-system pregnancy for a second.

It’s not an actual pregnancy. I feel like that’s common sense. It’s not going to cause the symptoms that pregnancy would, at least not truly. (Maybe psychosomatic symptoms at most.) People who are pregnant internally should not be in spaces for people who are bodily pregnant. (Again, I feel like that should be common sense, but I have unfortunately seen it.)

That said, a lot of what happens internally can be metaphorical, or for healing purposes. There’s a dozen reasons, just off the top of my head, that a brain might perceive a system member as pregnant.

I’ll use myself as an example. Someone in my system was internally pregnant, and, as we perceived it, gave birth to another system member. As far as I can tell, this in-system kid’s whole purpose is to just be a happy kid that’s never known suffering. Which means a lot to me as someone whose childhood was primarily suffering.

I consider this a split. The system member who ‘gave birth’ to her was happy during that time, but there was so much going on in my life around then, so much stress. Maybe I needed something joyful to focus on.

I can understand why a lot of systems may not have this experience, but I also think it’s ridiculous to say “that’s not something that can happen”. Without giving too many details, a lot of my own trauma involves babies/pregnancy, to a point that I likely would be very awkward around children if not for our in-system kid who I’ve learned to interact with. (Obviously an in-system kid is a lot different from an actual child, but it helped bridge the gap for me.)

To recap: In-system pregnancies are not the same as physical pregnancies, of course they’re not, but that doesn’t mean they don’t happen. They are their own, separate things.

[*As always, this is my personal experience & opinion. I’d try to find sources but, quite frankly, I don’t think there are any. I would love them if anyone knows of any.]

[lanterns-and-lightmares]

Hey.

If you threaten people for being the way that they are, get out of my blog immediately. If you purposely trigger people just to upset them, get out of my blog immediately.

If you’re a fucking asshole who can’t mind their own business, who treats people like utter shit because you don’t believe their existence is possible, get out of my blog IMMEDIATELY.

Yes, I think endogenic systems are real. Yes, I think RAMCOA is real. Yes, I think every origin is valid.

If you think people deserve to be threatened or harassed over their identity, get the fuck out. I do not want you here.

[the-sour-patch-crew]

"Endos must specifically look for our posts because I didn't use their tags"

Tumblr throws random posts and blogs at people. Doesn't matter the tags. Sometimes, it doesn't even matter the content. Endos get recommended anti posts, and antis get recommended endo posts. The algorithm SUCKS!

People see your reblogs or comments through the OP post, who may have cross tagged, even if you didn't.

You still used a common, shared identity tag.

"why would endos be posting and looking through tags that don't concern them"

(Reminder: Endogenic is a system whose origins are not caused by trauma. However, this does not mean they do not have trauma or other mental health struggles.)

People can have trauma and ptsd without being a CDD system.

People can experience dissociation without being a CDD system

People can experience amnesia outside of being a CDD system.

Trauma, amnesia, dissociation, identity disconnection, and other symptoms common with CDDs can be found in other mental health, or neurodivergant experiences. Maybe they have PTSD, ADHD, Autism, Bipolar, BPD, neurological, or experience psychosis. If someone is plural and experience any of these, they have very practical reasons to be in the tags.

It's okay to seek out others who are plural who also share experiences and specific struggles that may not match your origins.

Someone may rely heavily on being able to learn more about CDDs to better understand their own plurality

Someone may be mixed origin

They are learning about CDDs. They are learning to better support CDD systems, or learning to better understand how they differ from CDDs, or maybe because they want to stay in the loop of whats going on in the community or be knowledgeable for friends or romantic partners that have a CDD.

Lastly, some may just want to be part of *any* plural space. Or they do it to spite antis. But I am still against saying this is the norm or most common.

So yeah, you'll get endos where you think they shouldn't be.

[marbles-for-breakfast]

Thoughts/Arguments about Endogenic systems:

(for context, I’m probably best described as “quoigenic”, but I don’t really identify with any origin label because I think they ultimately cause more confusion than clarity)

Firstly, for those who don’t know, the term endogenic is about the narrative of your own existence. It was created by a diagnosed DID system which believes they were born plural and would have been plural regardless of the trauma they experienced. Whether you personally believe that to be true is your business, but I fail to understand how people think that idea is harmful, ableist or anything else. Not everybody wants to conceive of the origin of their existence in the same way. I don’t see anything wrong with that. Trying to force people to adopt a certain narrative about their own life doesn’t help anyone or prevent any sort of harm.

As far as willogenic systems go (because they’re under the endo umbrella, I’m pretty sure), I really don’t know enough about them to have a super definitive opinion. People seem to have mostly positive experiences with it, and it sure doesn’t affect me whether somebody I don’t know tries to make headmates through things like meditation. It’s obviously something quite different than DID, but I imagine it could work similarly in some ways, so I don’t really mind them using terms like ‘system’. I do understand the aversion to willogenics to some extent, though. I feel that sometimes too. And ultimately I think that’s because they get to make a choice that I wasn’t given. And they get to skip syscovery, and probably a lot of dissociation on top of that. It’s tempting to resent them, to assume they see it as a fun or frivolous thing, and are totally ignorant of our problems and suffering. But I don’t think that’s true.

They know what DID is. They know it’s usually caused by trauma, and often serious abuse. They know it is a serious disorder that can make life very difficult. They also know that they created headmates through meditation or something, and now they’re a system. Why should that upset us? Why do we think we own plurality just because we suffered more on the road here? Maybe you think they’re wrong about having headmates, but…. how would we know? Just because an experience isn’t accepted or understood by the field of psychology doesn’t mean it’s not happening. And I make a point to believe people about their own minds.

Just because they don’t have DID and have very different experiences to people with DID doesn’t mean they can’t acknowledge that those experiences do have some similarities. And it certainly doesn’t mean they can’t find community with OSDDID systems who want to normalize plurality itself in order to make life easier for all systems. It may seem “weird” to us, we might not understand it, but that doesn’t mean we should deny just because we originally learned that DID (and therefore plurality) can only form through extreme trauma. Aren’t a lot of the things we originally learned about DID wrong? Aren’t a lot of the things we assumed about it wrong? We, as a species, have never understood the human brain. Even doctors and educators make assumptions about what’s impossible without looking into it enough to prove that.

But when tons of people tell you they created headmates on purpose, and you don’t really have a reason to think they’re wrong other than “I don’t think that’s possible”, maybe it’s time to switch to, “idk how that works, but you do you”. It’s time to acknowledge that someone living their life in a way that you wouldn’t choose for yourself is actually completely fine. I mean, as long as they’re not hurting anybody obviously, but willogenics are not hurting anybody by being openly willogenic.

So yeah, endogenic systems are not inherently a threat to you or anyone else.

This post sums up my thoughts pretty well, so I might just refer people to it in the future. If you’re here from that, thanks for hearing what I have to say. I hope it helps you refine your worldview in some way. You don’t have to agree with everything I said here. I just hope you at least interact with people with more good faith (believing what they say until they give you a reason not to).

[thecircularsystem]

Yeah, by the way, that last reblog were all personal examples of things people have said/done to me. I’ve also been reported in multiple pro-endo servers for using parts language, harassed for being a “sysmed” since I medicalized my own system, threatened with doxxing because I’m not pro-endo (even back when I used that label openly), and most egregiously, many endogenic systems have tried to convince me that my trauma isn’t real or wasn’t bad enough to develop DID.

Meanwhile, anti-endos were the ones who educated me on the disorder I had when I was lost and alone, helped me to differentiate my endogenic and DID experiences (without denying my mixed origins!), and provided me the resources I needed to go on.

But nah, folks are right, the Endogenic community is nothing but positivity and love and acceptance, and the anti-endo community is nothing but bigotry and hatred. Good VS Bad, Light VS Dark, isn’t it so much easier when everything is black and white?

[sophieinwonderland]

"Sophie, Where Are Your Professional Resources?"

I mean, I post them all the time. I figured you would have seen them by now, Grace!

But don't worry. You can find them all in the link at the top your next screenshot.

Yup, right there on the one that says "studies and research into endogenic systems. I put it at the top to make it easy to fi...

No Grace! You can stop! Just click the top link!

And you just went with the second link, didn't you?

"My resources" are resources I created in some way. It's NOT the academic papers.

Those are literally right above it!

Now go back!

No! Not forward!

You wanted the professional studies! Go to those! We're not here to talk about my invaluable collection of resources for creating and immersing yourself into your inner world!

(Also, this kind of breaks the rule of being things I created because it's a list of resources other people have made, but I organized it in terms of difficulty so more basic methods are at the beginning of the list while more advance techniques come later.)

Grace, dear... why would you even expect professional resources in "The Plurality of... Batman!" That's just an overview of the Failsafe arc which covers The Batman of Zur-En-Arrh, a created headmate of Batman's.

Not that the plurality of Blue Beetle either!

Although... it's interesting that you click the two DC ones. Do we have a DC fan here?

And at last we come to Grace's final screenshot...

I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed.

Extremely, extremely disappointed.

Like, how can you be like "where are your professional resources" when it's literally the first link and you screenshotted where the link is!

Grace, do you know how hard it is to be disappointed in somebody who thinks all religious headmates come from Hazbin Hotel???

I was sure my expectations for you were already rock bottom.

But still you manage to find ways to disappoint me!

Anyway, here is the page you completely ignored containing the studies and research I've compiled:

[wispforever]

hello friend what do u mean by endo i do not know what that is in this context

endo is short for endogenic. in this context, I'm referring to endogenic systems, people who are plural/have a system without trauma. endogenic and traumagenic are usually used as opposites (as far as my experience goes). I am a traumagenic system, meaning I am plural as a result of trauma. If I were an endogenic system, trauma would not play an important/any role in my plurality.

I've noticed that this is a big sore spot in the plural community unfortunately. reads a bit like transmeds gatekeeping being trans by citing body dysphoria as a must-have. doesn't sit right with me obviously. you don't have to hate your body to be trans, and you don't have to have a history of trauma/be currently suffering to be a system. if someone says they're a system, that's what they are. the rest is none of my business.

hope this was helpful <3