#How did you get the idea that I am pro endos?

[antiendosystemterms]

i am Confused

your blog is pro-endo

but when i read the url "anti endo system terms" it SOUNDS like a blog that is anti-endo and is explaining endo terms

im anti endo???????????????

I make terms for anti endos

[circular-bircular]

2 Cents

(Get it? Cause it's all about change? I'm hilarious)

The response to SAS has been stunning, to say the least. Duh, of course you know what I'm talking about -- Woooahhhhh the major anti-endo is pro-endo now!!!

Only, I really don't want to frame it like that. And... I'm so relieved to see so many taking it in stride and not framing it like that.

Me and Dude have been friends for a very, very long while -- or at least it feels like a long time. DID makes it hard and all to really realize how much time passes. But I consider Dude one of my close friends at this time, and I hope people can see why. He's a person who's willing to change, albeit stubbornly, and he works so hard to be kind -- even when the world has been so much less than kind back.

And one thing I've always known is that Dude was anti-endo, but willing to compromise on those opinions and beliefs if it meant furthering the science of it all, and understanding more about all of this. As time went on, it became understanding more about CDDs than ever before, fueled less by frustration and more by genuine curiosity. It's what attracted me to this friendship in the first place.

Seeing Dude repeatedly start to say that he is pro-endo warmed my heart, but not because of the pro-endo part; it was because of the change part. Because so many people struggle with that, with the idea that they can change. Me being one of them.

It's been... so difficult trying to carve out a place in syscourse. In life. I started out pro-endo and manipulated into very nearly thinking I wasn't a DID system at all. I moved to this nebulous area where i was harassed for stepping out of line. I was neutral, I became anti-endo, neutral again -- constantly flip flopping because I didn't have anyone or anything to hold onto. I didn't get to have a community. I didn't get to be anything other than The Bad Guy.

While I was in a CDD server, I at least had that community, but even that wasn't what I wanted. Even that wasn't good for me, even if it was good in other ways. Maybe I'll find the good again someday.

But seeing this outpouring of support... As someone who now no longer uses any syscourse label (Call me what you want, I really don't care), it's a goddamn relief to see someone being accepted with open arms. It's a relief to see people being so kind and generous, both with asks and with comments. I have to be blunt and say how jealous I am, seeing the outcropping of support.

But I'm also relieved to see my experience really is far from the norm... while also acknowledging that I am incredibly braced for impact at the moment due to those experiences.

I'm an incredibly stubborn person, I'm able to admit it. I struggle to change. I'm incredibly set in my ways. But I also do change, rapidly, flipping on a dime when I think it's what the other person wants. (Honestly, part of why I appreciate Dude so much was his insistence on slowing down, getting the facts, and making an educated decision based on that). And recently with syscourse, I've felt as if I have to slam my fist into the table and shout and scream about How Pro-Endo I Am, just in case anyone was lumping me in with those anti-endos -- but then I saw how some pro-endos were acting, and I felt I couldn't say anything about it-- ugh, I'm rambling.

All that is to say, I've felt so... stunningly alone lately, even with the support of my friends. I'm alone in syscourse. I'm alone in recovery. So many of my friends are moving on, healing, growing, and... Here I am, just a silly little circle on their blog, young and stupid and dumb.

So I'm glad people are accepting Dude, not as a pro-endo, but as someone who has grown. It gives me a lot of hope for my future. A lot of hope for finding a community -- not as a pro-endo, or anti-endo, or syscourse anything.

Just as a person.

Does that make sense?

I hope other people out there, stuck in syscourse like me, feeling very alone in a very large world, can see how willing people are to extend a hand. I hope I've extended my own enough. I just... have a lot of hope for the future.

@sysmedsaresexist Thanks for helping give me that right now <3

[xenvaei]

Dissolving MIROYMON, what's next?

Hello. I'm Hail, from the mohi system. This is a bit of a late, abrupt message for all of my social medias. As of July 23rd, MIROYMON as a collective, ceases to exist. While we, the system, will never depart from labeling our work under MIROYMON for ownership reasons, we will not refer to our career and our work as being from MIROYMON. MIROYMON, to us, no longer is what we want to be known for.

Other labels such as Elmani, Shifterstars/Starryhail, Alterworldly, and Dancingpuddle are connected to this label and will also be put to rest as we do not want to be known as that either.

Addressing the elephant, of course. The previous hosts have a long winded history of misdeeds that are publicly out there for everyone to see. I am ashamed of acknowledging that, even if those were not me, I am still the current host in the same body.

We engaged in debate in online spaces actively denouncing zoophilia and pro-zoos online, specifically on Twitter. We exposed the faces/deeds of a lot of zoos in therian + furry spaces just for fun. We don't have shame in this, we just look back at it with a cringe because we ended up falling into the radqueer crowd only to crawl out more disgusted with ourselves. Interacting even closely with deplorable ideas will lead you to exploring how they think.. then getting too close and being persuaded into.. basically a cult. We left the crowd and never want to revisit it.

We engaged in syscourse, which led to many heated encounters. We had, with the intent of warning them, called someone a "token asian" because they were oblivious to how both the pro-endo and anti-endo side was using their opinion in tulpa spaces in order to fill their own community grudges. While I was, in the long run, correct that the plural community never cared about Buddhist voices.. I used my own racial trauma to say that someone was being tokenized. That's not okay, that's fucking disgusting actually. It's the fact that, no matter if it was an old host, that the same body made the active choice to type it. It's gross, and I have since stepped back from syscourse and apologized.

We engaged in transandrophobia on cohost, which lead to us getting into an argument with a trans woman. Said trans woman is a transandrophobe, but my behavior in consistently using her actions as a way to punish others and her friends for follow along was not okay. To many, I harassed this woman for days on end. To me, I made her feel unsafe on a platform she came to in order to get away from Tumblr. I wanted to make an example out of transphobia in trans communities and how rampant it was. But, I quickly realized that fighting fire with literal magma doesn't do anything but make it worse. And I made it worse by even tempting to call out people on their transandrophobia. I defended myself online, people used my wife's image as a way to demean not only my sexuality but my ideas too. I fucked it up, I tore apart relationships and I made people uncomfortable by pushing it too far.

We engaged in altersex discourse, in which we created a lot of tension for intersex individuals who either did not enjoy altersex people or did not enjoy how I worded my altersex identity and morals. What I hear tends to be along the lines of me changing definitions, co-opting experiences, allowing h-slur usage, denying my perisexness in favor of altersexness, creating uncomfortable environments for intersex people in their own tags, and being tone deaf to intersex issues. I apologize, completely. No push back, no buts or whatever. I apologize, and I won't do it. Everything that I have ever done, I will take it back and I will change to be a better ally. I don't personally feel comfortable using shi/hir pronouns for myself and will stick to hiu/hium, even if I don't have a strong connection to the set. I will restrict all usage of the h-slur in and out of my communities. I accept that I am perisex, yet I do want to show that I am altersex as well and will use altperisex to describe myself instead.

In other places, I have lot personal friends for my explosive anger and behavior. I have betrayed trust, I have made others feel uncomfortable talking to me due to my past history. I have started fights over little things, and I have been stubborn over the internet just because I didn't have the right words to express myself.

In each part, in every thing I have done to harm others, I do recognize that distancing myself from the MIROYMON label by adopting another label would look as if I am.. running from my responsibility of clearing my name.

But I do not want to clear my name, nor do I want to deny all the things people have said about me - about my system - because of me. These events are not just a year's worth of issues, these issues span to 2018 to now. It has been more than 2 years of my disgusting behavior and I am sick of myself and haunting other people and being a blight in the world of other's. I am sick of trying to change and never actually changing because I haven't had the time to build myself. I am tired of having a disorder that makes it harder to find who I really am.

So, I have decided to rebuild myself and my branding and my name. This is for the safety of my system that I am consistently putting down, but for the safety of others who have been with me on this journey and who have left me because of this. I am doing this not for me, but for everyone I have ever put in danger or even stepped on by being who I am. I no longer want to be MIROYMON, I don't want to be representing MIROYMON. I want to be someone else, and I want to start over and dissolve every aspect under MIROYMON so that I may finally sit and have a chance to become a better person.

I will still draw, I will still publish, and I will still talk about being altersex. That is how it is, I cannot take a break or simply leave. I must trial and error my way, because then I do not make money and I cannot feed myself and I cannot become a better person.

I am a bad person. I am a horrible person, and I have done horrible things and I do not deserve to still have an existence where I am happily making othrs feel unsafe and uncomfortable with me around. So I am changing, I am forcing myself to change, I am molding myself by performing good and changing names and leaving this behind so that I can still afford to heal while not hurting people anymore. I don't want anyone to tell me that I never meant harm, I need people to tell me that I am a flawed person. I need people to nitpick at my flaws, tear me apart and find the reason why I'm so compelled to start fighting and hurting people so that I can actually change.

No, therapy doesn't work anymore. No, medication never soothed it. The only thing that is currently changing me is HRT, and I realized that I've been working my ass off to be better while on it. So, I'm sticking to HRT and disappearing into a new name with a new look, a new hope, a new joy, a new reason to live. With respect for people, without hurting people, without fighting or trying to be better. I just need to go away and never come back to these names. I need to restart and become better.

What's next?

I'm going to change the name of all my social media. We have not chosen a replacement name, but we will and we will change. I no longer want to run away from my mistakes and my problems, so that means ending them now with a new courage to become a better person.

I will most likely take a break from writing and art and pursue offline activities. My mother recently got surgery, so I am here helping her until September. She can't do basic activities without pain. I can't wither away alongside her.

I'm going to stop being so extreme. I'm still going to be goofy and a fantasizer, but I need to calm down. I just need to stop taking thins seriously. I need not provoke my anger and relapse on destructive behaviors.

I'm respecting the wishes of people who genuinely don't like me. I'm leaving, I'm stopping, I'm changing, and I hope the scars I gave you heal and leaves no marks. I am not a perfect person, no one is, and I am not criminal.. but I am emotionally draining and hurting others.

I'm gonna spend time in objectum spaces, I'm gonna love my wife and talk about it. I'm going to enjoy being objectum and do more in objectum spaces.

I'm going to work on altersex experiences and my community. I'm going to not step over intersex spaces and their experiences and I'm going to focus on my own.

This is a long post, but I wanted to end it with something nice.

I'm sorry, and I don't know what to say but I did this to myself. I thought I was doing everything right and that when things like this happen, when people lie about you, I thought that fighting back was the first answer. But it digs the hole under me, and it makes me fall into the behaviors I exhibit out of fear of messing it up.

I'm taking steps to ensure that I move on, that you move on, and that this shit stops here. Be safe, find peace, enjoy life.

[sophieinwonderland]

The anon you answered who just wants everyone to chill out and live a better life —

Yeah, I knew. I was also a pro-endo who witnessed the… ever so eloquently named “cock gate” and spoke out about it. 🤦‍♀️

I’m happy to see a recent apology for those actions.

Maybe I was the only one out of the loop. LOL! Imagine if literally everybody knew that except me, just sitting here trying to figure out why this person I didn't know hated me so much all this time.

Your message did give off... Vibes... Of somebody who would be in the know. You know, the syscourse Illuminati. /Hj 😋

It does make all of their noble claims for this vendetta and their doc come off more as post-hoc rationalizations to me.

Prior to what they're calling "cock gate", they had sent in a friendly joke ask to this blog and I responded kindly.

Then a couple weeks later was when they started their dick gate, I tried to DM them to get them to rein it in a bit. Then they just double down so I made my callout post telling people to block them, and called them friendless and compared them to a toddler throwing a temper tantrum.

Realizing all of this, I also recall other things. It was THEN then that they started complaining about my influence over the pro-endo community. They made numerous posts about it over that period following my callout post of them.

And in the apology for their cock gate, they mentioned that a lot of that incident was spurred by a trauma response to things that were going on in their own life. With all of this added context, I can see how they might have a strong reaction to somebody who they used to like (at least enough to send asks to) coming out and saying all of those cruel things about them during a period where they were particularly vulnerable.

It actually explains why they are how they are, even to the point of being triggered by anybody who even reminds them of me. I wouldn't even be surprised if the connection of this incident being a trauma response also fueled the idea of me being an abuser in their mind, causing them to associate me with whatever abuse they were going through at the time.

But it also highlights just how ridiculously petty this entire thing has been.

Their entire grudge appears to be rooted in a callout post I made about them, telling people to block them for their behavior and how it was harming both the pro-endo and anti-endo communities.

The irony is so thick you would need a chainsaw to carve through it.

If I was a better person then I might use this newfound understanding to try to mend fences. But I'm not. Besides, I've already seen how they react to people trying to mend fences with the Nox incident. Understanding does not actually make me more sympathetic.

It was nice of them to finally apologize for the people they hurt through that incident. Even if it does just seem like it was build up to another attack against me and Nox, who they ended up causing to delete their syscourse blog.

I do wonder if they actually remember when it was that they started hating me. Do they actually believe themselves when they say that this is all about how "dangerous" I supposedly am? It would be fascinating to know the story they tell themselves in their own head to justify continuing this stupid vendetta.

[sysmedsaresexist]

The entire point of trauma related dissociation, at any level, is to divorce yourself from the event-- to separate yourself from the hurt and minimize the impact of the event. At worst, you forget the events completely.

No, I lied, at worst, you get fucking stabbed and go, "that wasn't me :3 I'm good bro, really. Hardly remember it and it's the most unimportant memory in the entire bank. Hold on, someone is having an emotion for some reason, ignore them, no idea what their problem is-- whoops, now I'm front locked. What a bunch of dramatic bitches."

(it's us, we're bitches)

It bothers me when pro/endo systems say things like, "we don't feel DID fits us because we're so much more than the events that caused our system."

Like... Okay? So does everyone?

That's the point???

How does that stop you from having DID? Why does it matter?

You are allowed to involve religion and cultural/personal beliefs into your systemhood, you're allowed to have strong personal beliefs about reasons for formation, but how does that make you different from any of the rest of us?

"Endogenic" alters can appear in DID systems, because the mechanism that allows you to dissociate in the first place is still trauma. You're not special because you're mixed origin, that's actually totally normal but no one wants to hear that they're just like everyone else with problems.

Meanwhile, you're saying shit that is actually offensive and you're so blind to it.

You're allowed to say that you don't like the medical model applied to you, or that you don't feel it fits you, and that's perfectly acceptable, but to say that it's because you're special and different, and that it's not just a personal choice is... Painful to see. You're making a direct comparison to people with DID and the experience, but putting yourself a step above us because of your personal beliefs about your self.

It puts the other side of the coin, those who find use in the medical model, beneath you. You're not saying, "I don't feel the medical model represents me," you're saying, "I'm different from those people with DID," and the connotation behind that statement matters.

Just because you're able to apply personal beliefs to your systems and alters to give it some greater meaning doesn't mean the rest of us are incapable of that.

Do you really think medicalized DID systems are over here just drowning in trauma and self understanding, clutching the DSM to our chests?

Because let me tell you, I still have some very deep beliefs about my system.

I am more than what created my system.

We are more than the trauma that is the basis for our existence, however far removed we may feel from those events.

I love my system.

I'm happy.

I'm successful, with minimal dysfunction.

I am still someone with DID.

The ones talking about medicalizing my beliefs and not accepting my personal interpretations are not doctors-- it's fucking systems online going, "I'm so much more than that so I don't have DID UwU 🌸"

Okay, so I'm not??

You're telling this to other young, vulnerable systems, who are still at a point that they can very easily be lead into belief systems that can further divorce them from their trauma and the understandable reactions to it.

If the medical model doesn't suit you, great, say that, but don't "other" the people who find it representative of them. Don't put them beneath you.

Think about the language you're using and how it comes across.

[queer-otherkin]

Warning: syscorse

Uhhh sooo syscorse. Can someone explain it to me?/gq It can be here or on dms.

Questions down below.

(I'm posting it here so I can actually get an answer, because I have a bit of a following here.)

Here are my questions

-why are endos bad?

-why do people hate endos so much?

-how are they mocking systems?

-Am I anti or pro endo? (My beliefs are down bellow)

Background about me:

I've been trying to keep kind of "I don't want to talk about it bc I don't understand it" and trying to remove myself from it immediately.

But I do want to understand it. At the same time, everytime I go to the tags, it's just everyone yelling at each other and I don't understand anything. And I don't want to be yelled at either lol. I'm actually pretty scared to post this.

My beliefs till now:

-Can they exist?

Ok, uh so, I don't think it matters if I think if endos are real or not? Like, it's not my identity, I don't know them. And that's why I want to know if and how they are hurting the DID/OSDD comunity.

-Are they fakers?

I personally believe they're not. But you can think that they're not real and faking all you want, but have some manners. Don't go out invalidating others. You wouldn't do it irl, so don't do it online.(This sounds like I'm mad but I'm not)

"They fake having DID" but they never said that though...?/gq isn't the term "endo" made to differentiate them from disordered systems?

My opinion on them rn:

I've asked around irl a bit, and it turns out a bunch of teenagers don't give out the best concise answers. So the closest I've gotten to an answer is:

They need their own spaces. traumagenic systems want their own spaces and I think that's valid, sure, they can, and should intersect sometimes, but not as much as they do now. That's why I considered myself sort of anti endo until now. Idk if I'm anti endo tho??? What does my belief classify as?

we can't prove if they're real or not, because studies don't really 100% discard the idea of them being real. As far as I understand, they just haven't done research around endos. They don't fit in the research, because the researchers don't think about endos when doing the research.

And I don't think it's really your, or my space to say what someone is or isn't. If someone calls themselves an endo, but are actually a did system, who cares?

"But they need help because they have trauma!!" yeah!! I agree, but even traumagenic beings don't get help sometimes. Endos can be in treatment and still identify as endogenic. Idk, in the end, everyone has their own process and recovery time.

[cipher-gyps]

Hello world of tumbr.

I am Cypress (or Cipher) and I’m the co-host of a DID system. Bodily 19.

Fictive of (reformed) Bill Cipher which is pretty neat. Mass following systems rn because I’m desperate for sys moots

Agender aroace he/it

I like birds, reptiles, bugs, oddities, drawing.

I gen don’t know what else to say.. gravity falls fictives pls interact !

More active in insta/discord. New to tumbr and I don’t know how to use it, lol

Interact pls ;

- systems

- 17+

- bird, reptile, and bug enjoyers

Dni ; ( block and move on, don’t argue about these pls )

- under 17 (you can follow but we won’t be friends sorry <\3 )

- pro/dark/com-ship

- zoo/pedo/anything along those lines

- endo systems

- anti-recovery

- if u want to me my friend just to date me I’ll genuinely throw you into the sun

Bfyf:

- Other than DID were also diagnosed with ADHD, autism, bpd, and ocd. I try my hardest to manage these things but sometimes I need to step back and take a break. If I leave you on delivered or seen, I will get back to you and it’s nothing you did!

- I don’t tend to “act” like my source. If for some odd reason, this upsets you, then I’d suggest looking for someone else.

- I don’t mean to sound dry ever. I’m simply just nervous around new people.

- I can’t believe this has to be said but I am *not* looking for any sort of romantic relationship online. I don’t mind if you have /r mems with me, or if you talk about it, though! Memories are a totally separate thing. I just want to be fully transparent that I am not interested in having a romantic partner.

- I’m ok with things like platonic pet names and jokingly flirting, I see these as fully platonic. But it’s always a good idea to ask first!

- I am very passionate about my interests, I will ramble about them.

- I struggle understanding tones from time to time, tone tags are appreciated but not required.

#systems #system #did system #did sys #gravity falls fictive #looking for moots #endos dni

[system-of-a-feather]

I am genuinely gonna say this even though it's syscourse (and that I prefer to keep syscourse off my blog) cause 1) its related to my views and recovery which is what this blog is about and 2) I feel people might actually hear me out as an ex-anti-endo and DID* system, but being anti-endo (talking about "endogenics existing" not any larger criticisms on individuals or communities; thats a different topic) really perpetuates some unproductive mentalities around alters and multiplicity that really honestly is very healing to let go of and stop worrying about.

Like even just from a solely selfish point of view and not a "don't judge how people get by in life and what works for them" - holding so tightly onto this idea that being multiple parts, people, identities etc and operating life like that as this sacred, unique, and trauma-defined experience just really holds you in a place of saying that "I am significantly different due to trauma and I am inherently not the same as a 'normal person' because of the trauma" which I GET it, its true trauma does change you like that, it has changed brain circuitry and there are things those of us who have Been Through it at a young age will understand.

But like... I know it might be hard to see and understand depending on where in healing you are, but interacting with yourself as multiple parts and individuals - while not traditional and orthodox - is honestly.... not new or that special? Especially as the dissociative barriers lessen, the idea that there is a straight and clear divide between "multiple" and "singlet" really starts to be debunked.

In my opinion, it's hard to see the difference between a person who has multiple parts due to trauma BUT recovered to lower dissociative barriers, and someone who has multiple parts because they are a multifaceted person BUT interacts with themselves in an Internal Family Systems manner because that helps them, and someone who has multiple parts that they choose to interact with as separate as it gives them company, insight, and comfort.

And personally? I think thats really beautiful honestly. Even though our brain has been royally fucked by trauma from an insanely young age to the point that it segregated parts to survive, it's not inherently anything that is "proof" that we are broken or changed significantly from any other person or human.

Of course there is nuance, I do think that especially earlier stage recovery DID systems really should have the option for their own space and what not, because the "going through it" experience of DID is so so so so so extremely different than that of someone who is late stage recovery, at functional multiplicity, and/or a system that is endogenic and/or operates within themselves as multiple for non-trauma related reasons.

But honestly? We stopped being anti-endo largely cause the more we recovered, the less and less sense and significance it held.

Also, do not argue "science!!!!" at me. I'll ignore it cause again, I used to be a feverous anti-endo. I know the texts, I've read them, I love reading research papers.

((Usual disclaimer: while we are generally / vaguely pro-endo / endo-safe we very rarely interact with the community due to lack of interest and limited time in our life (we aren't online enough) so we have limited awareness on how things work there and unspoken social rules; we are not In The Endo community, we just think they deserve to have their space and designated shared spaces. If we said anything that is Bad Rhetoric or what not, I apologize as I am not the most versed in endo-community talk))

((*DID = Dissociative System in general, I don't care for discourse regarding DID and if that is inherently trauma or not and any interprettation - in this post - beyond 'a system with notable dissociative issues and a dissociative disorder' is up to the person reading))

[wondercourse]

Hi. Excuse an anecdote, I just started thinking about something related to my fucking rollercoaster of an experience re: being Wonder. This isn't going to really have a point more than just being me sharing my experiences and thoughts.

Something weird that I'm realizing is that…I think the people I used to spend time with (online, in syscourse spaces) in high school would genuinely hate to see me not only openly questioning the nature of the plurality of a part of my system, but doing so in a way that's not fearful of it possibly not being traumagenic.

I definitely was, at first, because I am always learning. Even going into this account having been pro-"stop dehumanizing people into their stances", I was still learning. I am still learning. I still have a lot to learn. I was a hardcore anti-endo, and in the spaces I was in, your worth was pretty much determined by if you were being a system "right". Even after leaving these spaces, I carried these ideas with me subconsciously.

I kept thinking about how it'd affect how people saw me and the legitimacy of my words. I made a post around when I first made this blog about how identifying this layer as quoigenic—a term that I still vibe with but choose not to use for reasons mentioned later—meant that people were labeling me in their heads, and I claimed that it didn't bother me.

It did. Not as much as it would've when I was in high school (god, I should NOT have been involved in syscourse back then, still being in an actively traumatizing situation was not doing me any favors), but it did.

This isn't to say that I've completely solved the problem. I spent six years in echo chambers, being told that the experience I'm having right now made people inherent enemies to those with CDDs. There are even people who, alarmingly, think that traumagenic systems who are pro-endo (or lean that way) are just claiming such so they can get in with the antis and change their opinions—which, by the way, is a take I saw TODAY. Changing one's stance is already scary enough as is. Finding out that you could also, in part, be the antithesis of something you believed for half a decade? That these parts of you could be tge "enemy" of your own disorder, in that outdated view? Yikes!

However, the discovery of Wonder, the reaction of my treatment team to Wonder, and learning more about the infinite nuance of plurality as it relates to CDDs through this has made me realize that it doesn't matter what people think of me or my situation. Because…it's mine. And it is what it is.

I'm slowly but surely gaining confidence in the worth of my words within syscourse and sysconversation. In the background, there's a little bit of trying to figure out what's going on with us as Wonder, but it's in less of a "HOLY SHIT WHAT IF THIS ISN'T TRAUMAGENIC?!" way and more of a "Well, we're here, and we're gonna be here. So we'll treat ourselves like we're here" way that my therapist has also adopted (I do have a DID diagnosis and I'm in treatment for it). Which has led to me discovering so much nuance to my experience that where I wanted to label it before, I feel like now it might not be able to be labeled at all. And I don't really want to. I'm me! We're me! We're Wonder! And that's pretty cool on its own.

Like I said, this ramble, like…doesn't really have a point. Maybe just to put my experience out there. I guess the three main takeaways are this:

People can and do change, but a part of that is not being bombarded with information and being given the space to form their own opinion and then find people to discuss it with.

Your form of plurality and/or syscourse stance do not define your worth.

Take syscovery of any kind at your own pace. Especially if it's new to you. You don't have to rush to the answers (in fact I've found that both in and outside of the CDD context they come easier if you don't brute force them).

You're you (or perhaps even y'all)! That's pretty cool. I hope you're having a nice day.

Yeah! Rambles over, I'm gonna go make dinner. :3

[ironwoman18]

As long as you love me - One Shot

Disclaimer: Spy x Family and their characters as well as the song As long as you love me, belongs to Endo-Sama and The Backstreet Boys.

This will be narrative in first person and from Loid and Yor’s POV. 

Enjoy this One- Shot.

OOooOOooOO

Loid POV

Although loneliness has always been a friend of mine

I'm leaving my life in your hands

People say I'm crazy and that I am blind

Risking it all in a glance

And how you got me blind is still a mystery

I can't get you out of my head

Don't care what is written in your history

As long as you're here with me

Discovering that the woman you choose to be the fake mother of your fake daughter was a famous hitman and part of the legendary group of assassins known as “Garden” was shocking, could be taken as an overstatement. But for me it was.

My coworkers were also in shock and they talked about me behind my back about how the most powerful, intelligent and famous spy in WISE couldn't have noticed that his wife was the Thorn Princess?

Alas! I didn’t even consider Garden as a real thing until THAT day.

I was on a mission, trying to gather information on some Donovan Desmont when I saw her... A beautiful woman wearing a long, black dress, black heels and her hair tied in the base of her skull and other parts of her hair was falling on her hair, just like... YOR?!

My wife was in front of me, her red eyes as shocked as mine “L...Loid?” she said then she shook her head, cursing under her breath “No... It 's not true... You can’t be him...” she looked at him again “you can’t be Twilight”

She seemed surprised but her body moved on its own and started to fight me, that was the moment everything started to make sense in my head. She was so strong, she could fight like a pro, she had amazing athletic abilities and an amazing ability with the knives.

“So... You are the famous Thorn Princess?” He asked to block her attacks as fast as he could but she was faster and stronger, he didn't have a chance against her.

“Yes, I am!” she said with some tears as she was fighting with me. She seemed frustrated and angry. I could tell she had no idea who I really was before this day but I couldn’t tell for sure if that was correct, not until I had a chat with her.

“Yor... Can we talk?” I asked, using her name, I wasn’t to prevent her from killing me and to prevent my fellow spies from shooting her before I got my answer. Using her name seemed to distract her enough to allow me to stop her attacks and she accepted to be taken to the headquarters of WISE.

“Twilight, I can’t believe you were married to an enemy” said Nightfall in a really disappointed tone, then she sighed feeling I wasn’t in a good mood for her accusations “I guess that’s explain how she was able to hit that ball with such strength”

Yeah, I thought, that made sense but... Somehow I was blind around her, she looked so innocent and I was so comfortable around her that I couldn’t sense her true self. 

I don't care who you are

Where you're from, what you did

As long as you love me

Who you are, where you're from

Don't care what you did

As long as you love me

“Yor...” I said, sitting in front of her, I stopped the recordings and kicked out everyone on the other side of the room, not even the Handler could be there “Did you know prior tonight who I was?”

“No Lo... Twilight” she said, her eyes looked softer when she started to say my fake name, but that lasted less than a second before her eyes turned back to stone as she said my codename.

I believed her, I could tell she was telling the truth and I also knew The Handler knew that too because she was the one letting me run this interrogation alone.

“How did you know I would be there?”

“The Shopkeeper, my boss, told me to be there because some Westalis spies would be there, and one in particular... you... Of course back them I didn't know it was my husband”

I sighed looking at her and rubbed my hair gently “We both were aware that this marriage wasn't real”

“I know, but... I... I thought... Your feelings were getting real because I can tell... My feelings are...” She had tears in her eyes and my stomach flipped and I started to feel butterflies again.

“My feelings are true, that kiss at midnight on New Year's Eve... That wasn't an act, I was glad I did because I really wanted to kiss you” I confessed and I felt suddenly vulnerable, like every Friday movie night cuddling with her while our daughter was in bed, or when I fell asleep after a tough mission with my head on her lap. 

“Loid... I will be completely honest... I love you...” She said blushing hard and she was avoiding my eyes “and no... I'm not using this to manipulate you or because I have those cuffs on... I don't do that kind of things... I hope you know me by now... After all we have been living together for almost three years”

Three years... 

Operation Strix was a long- timed mission but I never expected it to last more than a year. However I managed to get close to Desmont thanks to her and Anya.

Anya became closer to Damian after that party in first grade and she managed to not get expelled and they finally were on friendly terms. However Yor was a key player since she became friends with Melissa, Donovan’s wife.

But it took time to build up a good friendship between the two women but the bastard wasn't around when we visited them the first time and it didn't happen until New Year's Eve, the night of our first kiss...

“Yes, I know you wouldn't” I had to be honest, she was the purest woman I ever met.

“So tell me Twilight...” Everytime she uses my code name, it feels wrong, like she's talking to a different person. And in scents it was the truth, Loid wasn't the same as Twilight but, Loid was way closer to that boy in Westalia, before the war. I looked at her “what was your plan when you finished your mission?”

“When I began the Forger, the plan was leaving both of you and I would change into one of my alter ego, returning Anya to an orphanage and divorce you” now that plan was like a punch in the guts for me and I can tell Yor felt the same because she had tears in her eyes.

“And now?” She asked, looking at me.

“I wouldn't do any of it. Because I don't really care anymore if the mission is complete or not or if I was sleeping in the same apartment as the famous Thorn Princess. I want to continue living with you both” Yor still had tears but she smiled softly at that. And even though I knew she could break those cuffs a long time ago and killed me in a heartbeat, because I saw her speed, strength and power, she remained there, calm and with bloodlust.

Yor POV

Every little thing that you have said and done

Feels like it's deep within me

Doesn't really matter if you're on the run

It seems like we're meant to be

I was sitting in front of the same man I fell in love with since the first day I met him, but his eyes seemed colder and more dangerous. However, when we were alone and talking, that cold melted and I could see MY Loid again.

I used his code name, Twilight, and his reaction was a sad or hurt face, which tells me he didn't like me to call him like that, but it was different when I called him Loid, his eyes softened and he seemed to relax.

“Ever since I got on the cruise ship I had doubts about whether or not to continue this job” he looked shocked, he didn't know I was there on a mission for “Garden”.

“Were you on the cruise ship to kill someone?”

“No... My client was a woman with her baby boy. I had to protect them from over five hundred hitmen, sent to kill them. I was their bodyguard”

He seemed to relax and I could see how the realization of some stuff he saw back made sense now.

“So your cheek was slightly swollen and red when we saw you at the port and that's why the ship was full of shady people and microphones” I didn't know that back to them, I was quite impressed by how he noticed stuff I've never thought of. I just nodded “and I guess that ended up well...”

“I told you that day that the couple left happy. That part was true”

He seemed to analyze my words and nodded “I see. Well at least you saved those two people”

“Three actually because there was a male with them as part of their cover” he looked at me and nodded, understanding what I said “look I know I lied and you lied but I don't care... Because I know some things you said we're real and I also knew back then that above all people in this world you would be the only one who will accept me as who I am”

He opened his eyes in shock just like everytime Anya said he was a good dad and she wouldn't ask for a better one “I never opened up or trusted anyone as I did with you, Yor. I never felt in danger around you. That's why I decided to bring you here and the Handler, my boss, accepted”

I don't care who you are (who you are)

Where you're from (where you're from)

What you did, as long as you love me (I know)

Who you are (who you are)

Where you're from (where you're from)

Don't care what you did

As long as you love me

Never thought that I could fall in love with someone from Westalia until I met him, I was taught at school and by the Shopkeeper I should hate them and I should be merciless with them but Loid... Er... Twilight wasn't the monster they told me and I said to him, I was sure he would love me even with my past.

And I can tell he does, because I'm still alive even when I'm here at WISE HQ, with a lot of spies ready to execute me at will.

“Mrs. Forger” said a beautiful woman with a big hat, red hair and glasses “I'm the Handler but for name sake, you can call me Sylvia” I nodded “I know you are strong enough to destroy those cuffs and kill all my agents in a heartbeat but you decided not to”

“He asked me to come willingly and I did,” I said with honesty.

“And I appreciate it. Now... Operation Strix, the name of Twilight's mission, could be in danger if you left him. We still needs the Forger because Donovan Desmond had been elusive to our best agent but with your help we can still find the information we need to stop a potential war”

“I also want peace. That's the reason I continued to be Thorn Princess, especially because of Anya”

“I know and that's why I'm asking you to not leave the Forger's without a mother. You are her mother and Loid is her father and I know you love them both” 

I took a deep breath and nodded after a second “I will do it but I don't want more lies” I said that not looking at her but to Loid, who, for sure, was at the other side, I just could feel it and Sylvia’s smirk told me I was right.

“Very well, Mrs. Forger. I just have a little request, can you accept work as a double agent? I would love to know more about Garden. I know that organization is quite powerful here and I would love some Intel about them”

“That could be dangerous and I'm not a trained spy”

“It's ok. You can tell Twilight as something you could tell your husband and he will tell me in private and coded” I nodded agreeing with her but happy, my boss gave me a chance all those years ago and I don't want to betrayed him but also I'm afraid of losing my family “then you might go”

I stood up after Sylvia freed me and walked to the door. Before I opened it I heard an angry scream, when I opened it there was Fiona being held back by my two men.

“HANDLER!! How could you dare to free that woman??!! She will kill Twilight in his sleep!!!” She said screaming, I closed tightly my fist, taking deep breaths to calm myself down.

“Nightfall...” Said the woman next to me, irradiating an intimated aura, she stopped fighting and looked at her boss “stop embarrassing yourself. She IS Mrs. Forger and will continued to be you won't bother her or Twilight about this mission” Nightfall nodded still in complete silence “Come with me to assign you a new mission” she walked away and Nightfall started to walk behind her like Bond when Loid scolded him for some bad behavior “oh by the way, Mrs. Forger and Twilight, keep going with your good job raising Anya, she's the MVP of that family” she said with a longing smile, like she remembered something happy.

I nodded and looked as she left with Nightfall and I heard whispers saying “that's why she's called the Fullmetal Lady” or “I wouldn't be Nightfall right now” then they left and Loid came over to me.

“Let's go, Yor” he held his arm for me to hold and after I did we left. Thankfully, Franky was there to watch over Anya.

Loid POV

I've tried to hide it so that no one knows

But I guess it shows

When you look into my eyes

What you did and where you're coming from

I don't care

As long as you love me, baby

I promised myself and always thought I was immune to falling in love but she changed that, with her kindness and her dedication to be the best mother for Anya.

I tried to hide it but I guess, as the time passed everyone but me noticed, I can read all the people around me but not myself. 

While I was watching the Handler talking to her I noticed how Nightfall looked at me, did she notice how I was watching her like an idiot? How her features changed when the Handler mentioned Loid or Twilight, the former made her eyes softened while the later turned her eyes into ice.

When we arrived at my car, hidden in a parking lot, I turned to her and made a bold move... I kissed her, the mere action could mean a death sentence but she seemed really open to it because she didn't hit me but kissed me back.

It was refreshing after everything that happened between us. 

The kiss felt like it lasted a second but when we pulled away we were out of breath and our lips swollen.

Her arms wrapped around my neck “hello Dr. Forger” she said with a little smile.

“Hello Mrs. Forger” I smiled back.

In the end we don't care who we were, as long as we love each other and our little girl and big dog. And more importantly... No more secrets.

OOooOOooOO

Yesterday I was listening to this son and thought about those two and about their secret identities being revealed.

[loquaciouswiggler]

PINNED POST

hi! don't use tumblr too much, but i plan to be more active here, so i'm making a pinned post!! disclaimer, i switch between i/me and we/us a lot in this post, but everything is meant collectively unless otherwise stated icon credits

TL;DR: DNI PR/SHIP, (PRO)ENDO. THERE ARE OTHER THINGS BUT THOSE ARE THE BIG ONES.

ABOUT ME

Hi !! collectively, we go by monzter. we use xe/he pronouns (no they collectively, please!)! while i don't really care too much what version of the xe pronouns you use on me, i heavily prefer xe/xim. it's like he/him, but the h is actually a x :). as of writing this, i am 17 years old, but i am ~3 weeks away from being 18. don't be a weirdo i am happily taken ( @tinyderse - < 9 / 26 / 2023 3 ), and i will NOT be tolerating any flirting or anything of the sort, ty did sys. any fakeclaiming will be blocked. i have literally been diagnosed for over 4 years now, lol. there will be a section below the cut of some frequents, but other than that, i wont be shouting off the rooftops information abt my system. that is not the entire internet's business. (also, if you have a problem with me saying "my system", i need you to understand that is not meant in an "oh lol i own this system it is mine and i'm the important one" way. saying "my system" is the same type of comment as saying "my family". clearly, you don't own your family, but that family is still something you have). special interests areee art, teenage mutant ninja turtles, and friday night funkin'!! feel free 2 ask about any of those :3 we are also collectively alienkin, rabbit therian, among other things. i am unapologetically cringe, and i will absolutely laugh at you if you leave hate of any form! leaving hate on what you deem as "cringe" just shows how miserable you are, stop being allergic to fun!!!

more below the break!!

ABOUT BLOG

my blog is just whatever i feel like posting!! :3c i will mainly post about fandom stuff, system stuff, and my general thoughts. this is also where i share my art!

my tagging system is as follows; #🛸 my creations = anything i make! most everything under this tag will be my art :3 #🛸 yapfest = just me talking about whatever #🛸 rebloop = reblogs #🛸 asks = responses to anything i get in my ask inbox #🛸 gooberville = anything goofy and/or not to be taken seriously. this is literally just me goofing around #🛸 real talk = this is anything serious

BOUNDARIES

mooooost important section!!! do not break my boundaries! i am not shy to block anybody if they repeatedly break my boundaries or if i am not comfortable around them

ACTION BOUNDARIES

NO venting without asking!! i am free to talk to just pleaaaase ask before venting! DO NOT ask about any of my diagnoses unless it is either relevant to the topic at hand OR we are decently close PLEASE ask my boundaries if you don't see something on here that you're curious about! DO NOT block evade. i can and will block you the second i find out who you are, lmao. if i blocked you, i blocked you for a reason, so do not keep trying to contact me, that just goes to show that blocking you was a good idea. NO flirting. this includes joke flirting. ty :) DO NOT repost my art on other sites, ESPECIALLY if you aren't going to credit me. if you see something reposted, let me know DO NOT dm me if you are 14 or younger. this is just a personal boundary. feel free to interact on the blog, but do not dm me or try to be my friend. i don't feel comfortable with that with my own age

DO NOT INTERACT

pr/shippers (missing letter is o. not typing it all the way out so it doesnt get on their dash lol). this includes ANYBODY that ships that weird shit, even if thats not what you call yourself

endos / pro-endos. im not going to debate on it, especially if you think all anti-endos are harassing you and want you dead. i'm just trying to live my life out here, i just block and move on, you can do the same

basic dni (ik this is broad. if you think you fit under basic dni, you probably do. if you think you might and you want to check, feel free to ask me, im happy to answer)

don't support agere/petre, therianthropy, otherkin, furries, etc. i don't want your negativity in here!! besides, you won't like it here anyway /lh

obligatory "random" thing, sorry. if you post about hazbin hotel, block me. you enjoy what you want (though i am very much not chill w/ hazbin), i'm just incredibly uncomfortable with seeing hazbin stuff lol. and yes, i do have the tag blocked, don't tell me to just block the tags. :)

FREQUENT FRONTERS

here is a small list of frequent fronters. anyone on this list (and a few others) will probably tag their post with #🛸 name! . that's kinda for us. memory issues go hard

★ kankri (or leo / venus) - he / him - main host + gatekeeper - 19-27 ageslider -> professional yapper + hater ★ cronus (or danny / casey) - he / him - host + caretaker - 19 y/o -> he's like a white suburban dad, goofy guy fr ��� sollux - it / ask / neoprn hoard - co-host + persecutor - 16 y/o -> brainrot. if you demonize it for being a persecutor we will immediately block you btw <3 ★ marina - she / glub / shell / sea - protector of multiple kinds - 21 y/o -> britney spears listener ★ donatello (or raven) - he / him - symptom holder - ageless -> world's maddest scientist ★ raphael - he / him - avenger + anger holder - 18 y/o -> local juggalo ★ andromeda - they / he / star / gear - protector + gatekeeper - 16 y/o -> space fan

our list of fandoms is giant lol. just ask if we like something, i am ALWAYS happy to answer PLEASE keep in mind that we consume media critically. just because i like, for example, homestuck, that does NOT automatically mean i support everything that has to do with homestuck

[circular-bircular]

Miscellaneous Thoughts

Alright, now that I’ve sat for a bit with my thoughts, got food, and destressed some…

Thoughts are going under a cut. This is all just ramblings and musings in regards to syscourse. Don’t take it too seriously.

I am sick and tired of the “sides of syscourse” bullshit. There aren’t sides. The sides are completely arbitrarily decided by those who tout themselves as leaders of the community, and if they don’t do so themselves, they are held up as paragons by those who regurgitate their disgusting displays in attempts at coherent thought.

I do mean that in regards to “all sides.” There are some of those who follow me who sicken me with how they attempt to interpret my words.

But then there are those who also engage with conversation, when possible. There are those who attempt to further conversations. And there’s those who are just trying their best, to understand or to learn more.

I’m… frustrated. Mostly that I can’t exist without this. It’s my entire disorder. I can either exist openly online as a DID system while participating in syscourse, or I can’t be online as a DID system. I can’t have a blog about my experiences without having to bring Endogenic systems into it, in some way.

I see my endogenic friends struggling right now due to fakeclaiming, and that’s hell. But I also see endogenic systems saying, “anti-endos have no idea what it’s like, having people tell you each day that they hate you or that you don’t exist!” And I know they mean me. Because they believe anti-endo means CDD.

I’m a CDD system. I’ve got DID. I struggle with it. And each and every day, I see more and more people who are trying to punch at the anti-endos doing things that directly impact me, as someone who isn’t a fucking anti-endo. As someone who isn't even pro-endo anymore. I'm not anti or pro anything! I'M JUST TRYING TO FUCKING EXIST.

The ToSD is real and valid, regardless of who participated in the writing and popularization of it. There’s plenty of research that supports it. Attacking the ToSD is not attacking anti-endos. It’s attacking CDD systems.

DID is a trauma only disorder. You cannot have DID without having repeated childhood trauma. You do not need to hate your system or be disordered by your plural aspects of self to have DID, and anyone saying otherwise is ignoring even the DSM. Attacking DID diagnostic criteria is not attacking anti-endos. It's attacking CDD systems.

Anyone, at all, who harasses anyone else, is either a troll, or hurting. They aren’t fucking evil. They aren’t irredeemable. They’re certainly a damn sight more than a fucking parasite — how in the goddamn insurmountable levels of hell do you think it’s appropriate to compare living, breathing human beings to parasites, and deem them worse and lesser? What gives you the right to treat others like this?

For fucks goddamn sake, I just want to live. I just want to survive with this disorder online. I want to talk about my experiences. But every single goddamn time I’ve tried, I get caught in this loop.

First, it was pro-endos, insisting I was valid while gaslighting me and harassing me into thinking I didn’t have goddamn trauma.

Then, it was anti-endos, insisting my hurt was valid while demonizing the pro-endos who hurt me first.

Then it was all of you fuckers, every single person in syscourse — yes, even you — who perpetuated these cycles. And the thing is, I’m not blaming you, I’m not upset with you; it’s just fucking impossible to avoid at this point!!

And the thing is, I don’t want to go. I don’t want to leave this place. I’ve spent a goddamn decade trying to carve out a hole for myself to hide in here. This became my home for so goddamn long because I didn’t have one of my own. And god, I have made a lot of connections here, people who I would miss. People who I DO miss.

But you all make it so damn difficult. Pro-endos hurting me more each day. Anti-endos hurting my friends and taking the battling gun approach to fighting ableism.

I’m so tired.

I’m just. So goddamn tired.

I think that’s all I’ve got in me right now. That’s all the energy I can muster for this. At least it’s words that count toward my daily total, right?

[systemofcryptids]

quick about for a pinned post I suppose.

collective he/it, 19. known alter count: 5(?). we often do not sign off. we do not have a hard and fast system name. diagnosed DID. made this sideblog to keep system shit off my main.

none of us are human, just FYI. various flavors of xenogender and nonhuman.

quick n fast syscourse stances (though I'm not sure what is or isn't syscourse):

- endo neutral (they probly exist? i have no say in what you are experiencing. not my place. I know good endos and bad endos, just like any other group. not really my business. I don't care. I agree with some pro *and* anti endo points, depending on who's fronting and what the topic is. if my stance seems to move, that's why - I'm not firmly on either side)

- pro psych (in most cases! in some cases it's shit. I had a really traumatizing experience with a therapist that put up really bad dissociative barriers around therapy. I'm becoming a therapist to help the people I can, because I have benefitted as well)

my stances will shift if I'm given evidence that's compelling, because I do my best every day to be as rational as I can be. my core belief is that everyone is doing their best to just... be, and to judge people too harshly for that is a fallacy - i won't hold any opinions of yours i disagree with against you as a person. even harmful beliefs need to be understood to be tamed.

- pro self dx (with the proper time and research, though I don't do it myself; all of mine are professionally diagnosed if I don't say otherwise)

- on alter race: complex. (I am white, don't feel like it's my place to decide, but generally i think claiming to have experiences you don't is a bad idea. could be some exceptions maybe??? but not my place)

- on alter age: doesn't exist. (we all feel ageless, or in a vague maturity range. mental age as a concept has a tendency to be ableist. body age matters most, but how you feel personally is also very important, though that's more maturity than age. either way not really my business.)

- ask me abt more cuz I can't think of any rn

unless we're talking about, say, death threats. yeah, I'm not gonna defend you for those. get your shit in order if you're doing that. my ideal internet is civil - you can be at each other's throats metaphorically, but if anyone on either side of any issue is getting into doxxing and threats, no matter how noble the cause, you need to take a breather. i won't do it to you - don't do it to me, or anyone else. we are all people behind the screen with our own concerns.

(the above includes general harassment as well. do not harass people. I will bite you. you can be mean, sure, nobody is gonna shoot you, but if you harass someone I will bite you.)

I'll probly do some syscourse. I'll probly talk about general system stuff. I'm making an 18+ DIDOSDD server that may or may not have a section for endos, I'm still deciding that one (and I'm open to arguments from either side on why I should or shouldn't).

have a good timezone.

- this was mostly written by neo, current host, he/it - an example of a sign off we probly won't do all too often, lol, because sometimes we get real blurry and confused. this one has elements of c and s in it, for example - I didn't write it alone.

[starstruck-sillies]

Honestly this was refreshing to see, a lot of people who reblog typically don't even try to listen to what we're trying to get at, but I can definitely tell that you put a lot of genuine thought and actually listened, I appreciate that.

I am aware that there are many that do try to keep to themselves, and those people are (mostly) fine to me, but there are an awful lot I've seen saying a lot of...strange things. Some say that "Because some endos experience trauma they belong in CDD spaces" (Yes, that's an actual thing I've heard) And I'm definitely not trying to say their experiences are invalid, I'm just skeptical about how similar they are to us, and I'm not entirely convinced that they're actually systems like we are. If they say they are multiple people, that's fine by me, I just feel like they try awfully hard to seem like us at times, which irks me. I do see quite a few endos trying to claim that they are "so similar to us", maybe we just found different sides of it I suppose? Another thing I forgot to mention here is that there's a lot of anti-traumagen rhetoric prevalent in endo spaces. I highly doubt this is completely intentional, and I don't think that many actually realize they have this belief, but I have seen many that seem to have this idea ingrained in them that they're better than us, simply from being formed from means other than trauma, and while I think most of them are completely unaware of it, I can tell that a concerning amount of them do have this kind of rhetoric oozing from their posts. It's part of the reason that I stay away from mixed-origin and pro-endo spaces, I feel unwelcome and judged every time I try to go into these spaces.

Personally, I can't stand being in any mixed-origin spaces, though if they work for you and you feel safer there that's completely valid, and I'm glad it's worked out for you.

And I do agree that there's too much focus on alters in CDD spaces, there's so much more to these disorders than alters, and it's frustrating to see that people only ever talk about that part of it. It makes it harder for us to open up about the other parts of it, and it's extremely unhelpful.

I don't think I'll be changing my stance anytime soon, but this did put some things into perspective, and I think you taught me some things. I would be interested in hearing from endos, I haven't heard much from them, and I feel like I keep finding the bad ones, it's hard for me to find any that are decent. I still do pretty firmly believe that there needs to be more separation between traumagenic and endogenic, though I do agree that having some shared spaces would be a good idea, just that there should be more distinction between them.

(Sorry that I didn't respond to all of your points, I'm tired lmao, plus there are some I need to think on)

-Kaz

Keep seeing posts of pro-endos who used to be anti-endo talking about "Ugh, anti-endo spaces are so toxic" which is not necessarily bad, there are bad anti-endo spaces out there and people are allowed to vent about how those spaces hurt them

I do have a problem when they use that as an excuse to call us all toxic and cruel. I've seen many saying things like "Anti endos are so horrible, I'm so glad I'm not one of those monsters anymore"

You need to understand we aren't the monsters you make us out to be. We're traumatized people, trying our hardest to survive with something debilitating, who can't help but see endos as mocking, whether they truly are or not. We can't help but see endos as invading our spaces.

We didn't get to have safe spaces most of the time. We didn't get to be around people who cared about us and understood us. Even those of us that did have a safe space had it poisoned by trauma elsewhere. We spent our childhoods afraid, isolated, and so agonizingly alone, feeling like we were better off dead, that we were freaks, that we were the only ones in the world going through this. This community we made for ourselves was one we had to fight through years of hell to get.

So when random people come over trying to insist that they're "just like us" and demanding to be let in, despite having only one or two things in common that we couldn't even trust they truly had, of course we'll be fucking defensive. In our eyes, you're trying to take the safe spaces we fought tooth and nail for away from us, whether you truly are or not. In our eyes you're people who know nothing about us or what we went through, and continue to go through, trying to barge into our havens and bloat it with bullshit, whether that's what you're trying to do or not.

We've been hurt so many times, by so many people, for so long. Why the fuck would we take a chance on people that are so suspect? You claim to have alters just like us, yet without any of the other symptoms of our disorders. You claim to be systems, yet without being caused by the immense trauma we had to suffer through. Hell, some of you claim that you made your alters for fun, just because you can.

Of course we're wary and defensive. We don't want to even risk losing the spaces we worked so damn hard to get.

If you've had a bad experience with anti-endo spaces, and are pro-endo now because of it, that's fine by me and I understand completely. But that doesn't make us all villians. That doesn't make us all evil monsters.

And besides, many of us have been hurt by pro-endo/mixed origin spaces too. We've seen people have horrible experiences with them. (Let's not forget endos started as natural multiples, who were notoriously shitty, cruel, and discriminatory toward any and all traumagens, and that a lot of that same rhetoric is still rampant in the community, AND that the community at large has basically just decided to pretend that never happened.

-Kaz

[system-of-a-feather]

If you are still taking asks about your syscourse stance from anti endos (I'm a bit late) :

1. Excluding those who do not remember their trauma or do not believe it to be enough to be traumagenic, do you believe that endos are really experiencing systemhood and not some other kind of plurality or multiplicity?

I cannot understand how someone who doesn't have any dissociation could ever have alters. It just doesn't make sense at all to me, no matter what angle I look at it from, and I cannot find any sources explaining it either. I do not *not* believe that endos are experiencing some kind of multiplicity but I don't think it's necessarily systemhood, if that makes sense?

2. How do you not get jaded by some of the things you see happening in the pro-endo spaces?

I'm talking about things like people labeling themselves "trans-programmed" or "trans-RAMCOA" (and so many more), those same people often calling traumagenic systems privileged, and other people who keep spreading misinfo about OSDDID (for example, that you don't need trauma to have DID), etc.

I know this isn't the entire community but I rarely see much opposition to those behaviors, which makes me feel very unsafe amongst most pro-endos.

1. Excluding those who do not remember their trauma or do not believe it to be enough to be traumagenic, do you believe that endos are really experiencing systemhood and not some other kind of plurality or multiplicity?

Honestly, I think the only thing in this topic is a lot of arguing over semantics and if words can be shared. From what I'm getting, I think you equate systemhood / being a system to being traumagenic / DID / OSDD exclusively. From the sounds of it, I think you seem to be open to the idea that they do experience multiplicity / plurality so I don't think we disagree there much. I personally don't think "system" and "systemhood" needs to be an explicitly DID/OSDD term but its also a debate I have very little interest in. I am cool with saying that "system" is a term that people can use regardless of their nature cause - to me - it's just a way of labeling yourself.

Also, while I am not sure if it is similar or the same as DID/OSDD alters, I honestly could see how someone could have disordered plurality without being traumagenic simply due to how prolonged internet usage can cause a dissociative effect, especially in situations where roleplaying features are around and those have been documented in clinical studies - particularly around the proposed internet gaming disorder and internet gaming addiction. There is a lot of research to be done whether the experience of DID/OSDD like symptoms late in age is anywhere comparable to the more traditionally researched and understood DID/OSDD that stems from complex and chronic childhood trauma - but it's honestly a pretty false notion that dissociation ONLY comes due to trauma. (ADHD has it as a symptom, internet usage has a dissociative affect on the self, substances can also do it, meditation also can do it) So I figure with the combination of developing research in developmental psychopathology and research into other things that can cause dissociation that we might honestly find other means of developing alters or alter-like experiences in people who did not experience the extended trauma often seen in our current understanding of DID/OSDD.

2. How do you not get jaded by some of the things you see happening in the pro-endo spaces?

I just divide "pieces of shit" from "people just living their lives". //shot//

Honestly, really though, if someone is being an asshole, bigotted, extremely fucked up, etc I consider them first and foremost their fucked up group and then the neutral or positive group identities they have second.

So if someone is trans-programmed and identify as endo - I identify them FIRST as a toxic and fucked up trans-ID person who happens to identify as part of the endo community. I attribute the trans-ID shit to their trans-ID beliefs and give the overall community the benefit of the doubt and good faith that the overlap is a Ven Diagram and not a circle.

Generally I like to avoid generalizing groups as all bad based on their bad corners, especially if I've seen the community actually make efforts to improve. I personally found the latter of the that statement earned with the good faith I saw in a lot of quiogenic and endogenic systems when the tulpa-discourse came up and a good number of servers and people made the effort to leave the appropriated terms behind.

From that point I went "aight ok" and divided the endo community between racists and people with no intent of improving themselves and their community and endos that just honestly want to live their life and are doing the best in their knowledge to not harm others.

TransID people I generally put in the same group as the Tulpa people and just click my tongue in disgust and block them.

But TLDR I just honestly would prefer to give the people that haven't done anything wrong a chance to just live their lives without hurting people rather than punishing them with the people that really don't care the harm they do. Just cause some people who claim to be part of your group are pieces of shit, doesn't mean everyone in that group both 1) supports and wants those people in their group and 2) deserve to be shunned, harassed, and treated with poorly.

[none-gender-left-man]

Anti endos are hilarious bc theyll accuse anyone who supports endos of being one and I'm sitting here, knowing I was "diagnosed" (incorrectly with DID when I do not have DID actually) at 15-- and I am traumagenic. Idk how to tell y'all system origin doesn't make me better than any other plural person and I'm not gonna tell anyone their ND traits are "fake" because they present different? Wtf is wrong w y'all, for real.

Being seen by a psych did me no good other than getting me abused by the system I submitted myself to. Do anti endos have no idea what it's like for people in rural places that may have one psych clinic worth seeing for a hundred miles? Do y'all not know what it's like to be working with literally nothing to help you except others like you online?

I'm equally confused as to how some anti endos claim to be pro-self dx based on this behavior. How can you be okay with self determined diagnosis (which IS good-) but then make harassing an entire neurodivergent class your hobby because they "annoy you" and YOU "think" they're "harmful".

That'd be like if autistic folks like me decided to start harassing people w ADHD en masse bc they don't have exact 1-1 experiences or vis versa. Yet? These VERY DIFFERENT communities predominantly foster solidarity, because they recognize their STRENGTH IN NUMBERS.

You guys make my head hurt. I cannot imagine making my whole personality about attacking, belittling, insulting, and "disproving" a marginalized ND group just for being "alike" to me but "too different to be real".

You're not more worthy of help than any other demographic of ND ppl.

Don't call yourself psychpunk or any variation if you play the blame game against other obviously neurodivergent people. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯