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plague-of-insomnia · 5 months ago

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Hi, I saw a post a while ago looking at the original Japanese version of Sebastian's "I have gone through great pain to cultivate you" that I just can't seem to find anymore.

I have a feeling that it might have been one of yours, but it doesn't seem to be in the masterlist and Tumblr's search engine is no help. Do you know if that is a post you remember making or have any idea where else I might have luck finding it?

Thanks :)

Hey, this was a great ask and I'm sorry for the delay in replying. I've been really low on spoons and wanted to be sure I gave this question the attention it deserves.

So I was not the one who did that post, so that explains why you couldn’t find it. But perhaps this was the one you meant? It’s a really long one and only talks a little about that moment but I figured you may wanna see it anyway even if it’s not what you had hoped to find.

But I believe that post is using a fan translation (or maybe a version from the monthly chapters and not the volume, and changes were made in between those two releases) because their English translation is not the same as the one I have.

And now that we’ve gotten to this moment in the anime too, I thought we could compare the different versions:

The original Japanese manga version

The translation used in the cited post

The official English manga translation

The official English anime translation

My thoughts on all of this and how *I* would translate it

So I thought I would take this time to go ahead and look at this section myself and give my own thoughts on the translation/what Yana maybe was going for here.

This is gonna be a LONG post, so buckle up.

Below is from the cited post, with the Japanese side by side the English version they used.

Let’s look at the Japanese first.

Japanese

Sebastian says in the original:

せっかく

育てて

きたんです

掠め取られては

たまらない

A bit literally, this is what it means:

(I’ve) taken great pains

to raise (you) / nurture (you) / foster (your) growth

(for you) to be stolen (away from me)

is intolerable

Old Post English Translation

I went through the trouble of

cultivating** it.

So I won’t let myself be

robbed* of it.

Official English Manga Translation

I have gone to great pains to

cultivate** you.

I cannot afford

to have him steal* you away.

Official English Anime Translation

I’ve gone to the trouble of raising** you.

I won’t stand for anyone snatching* you away now.

My Thoughts

So now you've seen the original Japanese, with a fairly literal translation to give you a sense of the core meaning of what's being said here along with 3 different English translations: a fan (or older) translation, the official English manga translation from the volume and the official English anime sub from Crunchy Roll (specifically; other anime sites may have different sub translations).

So let's first look at the part about Seb losing out on Ciel, the bit about something being taken from him.

The word that Yana uses is shown above, kasumetoru, which you can see according to jisho.org means to snatch or steal. We saw three different English words used for this: rob, steal, and snatch, all of which fit with the Japanese meaning. I'll leave off my opinions on what I would pick until the end. But you can see that you can't really fault either of the three translators for their choice as each works in the context and with the original intent of the word itself.

But what about the more controversial part? The REASON Sebastian can't stand to have Ciel taken from him?

Let's first look at the original word Yana used:

You can see it has three possible meanings:

to raise/rear/bring up;

to train/teach/educate;

to promote the growth of/nurture/foster/develop

Now let's look at the ways the three above English translations approached this word:

Both manga translations went with "cultivate," while the anime went with "raise." How well do these two words fit with the original? Well, let's look first at how the English word "cultivate" is defined according to dictionary.com; pay attention especially to the highlighted definitions:

Those three meanings all align well with the three from the original Japanese, don't they? OK. But what about "raise"? How well does that work? That word has over thirty possible definitions, so I won't post them all here, only what's pertinent, but you can see them all here if you're especially curious.

Only two align with the context/meaning intended in this scene:

As you can see, the first of these two, "to grow or breed, care for, or promote the growth of" is a synonym for "cultivate." The second is the one that the dadbastian fans are latching hard onto, but that isn't completely disjoined from a couple of the meanings of cultivate, and that does fit with the various Japanese meanings.

So who did it better? How would I translate this?

Translation is not a science; it's tricky especially when you're moving from two languages that are as different from one another as English and Japanese are. The way Yana uses layered meanings makes things even more challenging. Sometimes, it comes down to simple preference on the part of the translator. That seems to be the case here, as I cannot really say anyone got things "wrong," despite having three disparate translations for the same lines.

I think I would have translated it this way:

I have taken great pains to cultivate you; I shan't stand anyone snatching you away.

Firstly, I know the first translation went with “it” as in “Ciel’s soul,” but I think “you” is a stronger choice here, and it’s what the other two translators went with, perhaps since Sebastian is directly speaking to Ciel here.

As for the rest, I personally prefer "taken great pains" over "gone through a lot of trouble," partly because it's less modern sounding and to me fits the way Sebastian speaks. I also like "cultivate," over "raise," because I think it not only fits Sebastian's manner of speech better (and we know he doesn't want to be seen as Ciel's parent), but it also has a more immediate and direct association with food. Yes, we "raise" food (as we see above they're interchangeable in English in this meaning), but I think that when English-speaking people read or hear that word they think more about kids first.

While ofc Sebastian HAS raised Ciel—he's fostered his education, watched out for his health and made sure he can pass as an earl, etc.—those are means to an end. Sebastian's main goal is to eat Ciel's soul, which he has already spoken about wanting to perfect so it'll be the most delicious it can be. Thus, I think keeping that association while having us remember his ultimate agenda is why "cultivate" is a slightly better choice than "raise."

The bit about Seb finding losing Ciel intolerable is where we see the most variation in the translations, and that's largely likely because the Japanese only needs a word while we need a whole phrase in English for it to make sense. I like "I shan't stand" because it's stuffy and old-fashioned and more possessive than some of the above options, in my opinion.

I also decided to go with "snatch" over stolen or robbed because that's in the Japanese definition and since literally Sebastian was imagining Undertaker scooping Ciel up and taking him away, I figured it fit.

So you can now decide for yourself how you'd like to interpret/translate this section, and you're welcome to dislike my version and prefer one of these others, too.

However, I think anyone who latches solely on the "raise a child" aspect of the meaning here is not paying attention to the full context of the story, characters, and layers of meaning in the Japanese original.

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problemnyatic · 5 months ago

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so matt's absolutely giving scorched earth orders behind the scenes right. Not only are publically visible transfems dropping like flies, but every third person who musters up the audacity to comment negatively on Staff or Matt about this vanishes fucking instantly

#cultivating fear #tumblr meta

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cosmicxstar · 6 months ago

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