#kuro meta

[plague-of-insomnia]

Ciel does not see Sebastian as his father.

He is actively repulsed by the idea and Yana has shown this explicitly at least twice: once in the Circus Arc and again in the Murder Arc.

I know there’s a significant segment of the fandom who genuinely believes that Ciel wanted to have Sebastian to replace his dead father, but I disagree strongly, not only because of the above, but also because Yana has shown us that OC was much closer with Tanaka than Vincent.

Besides, if you look at the revisited contract scene from ch 138, it almost seems as if Ciel is not thinking of replacing Vincent when he makes the decision to accept Sebastian’s offer, but in fact is looking for a new protector to replace RC, his dead twin.

It’s impossible to talk about this moment without the gorgeous full-page series from the chapter.

Sebastian offers the contract. Ciel recalls his brother promising to protect him. He gazes out at his brother’s corpse and realizes that his only way forward now is through making a pact with the demon. His brother’s soul is gone already, as is his life.

So Ciel becomes his twin. He takes Sebastian on as his new shield for his revenge. Sebastian may be someone that Ciel relies on, but he is absolutely not his new father figure.

[loriache]

Kabru, impossible mutual understanding & unknowable objects

Despite his concerted and constant efforts to understand other people, it’s established in a few extras that Kabru believes that true mutual understanding between certain different races is impossible. Specifically, between long-lived and short-lived races, and between humans and demi-humans. Partially, we can trace this conviction back to specific hang-ups caused by his life; the trauma of the Utaya disaster, prejudices he carries from his childhood, and his experience of racism among the elves. In this “little” essay, I’m gonna discuss how I think those experiences formed this belief, how it comes out in his actions, and how some of his actions seem to contradict it. The question of whether it’s possible to reach mutual understanding with other living beings despite our differences is one of the core themes of the manga, and I’ll also touch on how this aspect of Kabru’s character links to that.

Seeking understanding

Kabru is a character who devotes a huge amount of time and effort to understanding people, and he is very good at it. In his internal monologue, we can tell how advanced and complex his skills of analysis are. He is able to read a huge amount of information just from looking at people's faces and body language.

People are, to him, what monsters are to Laios. This is something that's been expanded on at length in other, excellent meta. It's the fact that they're foils; it's the fact that Kabru is also very easy to read as autistic, with a special interest which is the opposite and parallel of Laios'. It's something that came out of trauma and alienation, as Laios' special interest in monsters also began as a coping mechanism.

The complicated origin of this "love" for monsters and for people comes through, I think, in the fact that one of the places we see both characters use their fixation is in being very, very good at killing the thing that they love. This also ties into the idea that loving something isn't even remotely mutually exclusive with using it to sustain your own survival; using it for your own purposes; hurting it or killing it. Love can be, and often is, violent, possessive and consumptive. This understanding is part of what makes Kui's depiction of interpersonal relationships so compelling to me.

While Laios fixated on monsters and animals to seek a place of escape, in both his imagination and his self-image, from the humans who he couldn't understand and who couldn't understand him, Kabru seems to have fixated on understanding people in order to navigate the complex, socially marginal places that he has been forced into throughout his life. As an illegitimate child raised by a single mother with an appearance that marked him out as different to the point his father's family wanted to kill him, and a tallman child raised among elves who didn't treat him as fully human and wanted him to perform gratefulness for that treatment – treatment that, after he met Rin at age 9, he certainly always understood could be a lot worse – his ability to work out what people wanted from him, whether they were friendly or hostile or had ulterior motives, wasn’t just an interest. It will have been an essential skill.  

Milsiril, I think, was a flawed parent who tried to do her best by Kabru and did a lot of harm to him despite her best intentions. She may have treated him much better than an average elf would have, but like Otta and Marcille's mother, there are other elves with different outlooks on short-lived races. How would they judge her treatment of him? We don’t have any insight on what it could be, but to be honest, the person’s whose opinion of her I’d be most interested in knowing is Rin’s.

But even if she'd been perfect, living as an trans-racial adoptee in a deeply hierarchical nation with a queen who is a 'staunch traditionalist' who wouldn't even acknowledge the existence of a half-elf like Marcille (according to Cithis) is an experience that would deeply impact anyone.

Elves & Impossible mutual understanding

While Kabru was living with Milsiril - in other words, while living in the Northern Central Continent - he came to believe that "there was no way to achieve mutual understanding with the long-lived races."

This is evident in his political project: he wants short-lived races to have ownership over the dungeon's secrets. Despite his dislike of the Lord of the Island, he's a useful bulwark to stop the elves taking over. Despite his doubts about Laios, Laios needs to be the one to defeat the dungeon, because if he doesn't the elves will take over.

Kabru still carries a deep scar from Utaya, one that was exacerbated by the fact that he never got an answer to any of his questions about what happened or why. This, despite the fact that Milsiril knows about the demon and how it works. Do you think Kabru, with his social perceptiveness that borders on the superhuman, wasn't aware that she knew more than she would tell him?

Given that, the fact that he gets to a place where he "doesn't have any particularly negative feelings about [elves/long-lived species]" .... well, to put it bluntly, I believe that he thinks that's the case, but I kind of doubt it. After all, if he did have resentment, of Milsiril (someone who was his primary provider and caretaker since age six, and who despite her flaws, loves him and who I do think he loves) or of elves (who he has had to play nice with for most of his life, in order to survive, and will still have to play nice with in order to achieve his goals, since they hold all the power) what would that do except hurt him and make his life harder? Kabru is Mr. Pragmatic, so I don't think he'd let himself acknowledge any such feelings he did have. Exactly because he can't acknowledge them, they're well placed to get internalised as beliefs about the Fundamental Unchangeable Nature of the World.

However, these stated beliefs seem to contradict his actions. Despite his belief in the impossibility of forming a mutual understanding, he certainly seems to try to understand long-lived people, just as much as he does short-lived people. There's no noticeable difference between his treatment of Daya & Holm versus Mickbell & Rin that isn't clearly down to their relationship with him. His skills of human analysis were honed and developed while living amongst elves, and as soon as he's alone with Mithrun he immediately sets to understanding him - his interests, his motivations, his needs, and his past.

He treats him considerately and without bias, and despite the fact that Mithrun conquering the dungeon for the elves is both a reenactment of a core part of his childhood trauma and a political disaster for his aims, that doesn't seem to colour his perspective on Mithrun negatively at all.

This is something I find extremely laudable about Kabru, and it's another way he parallels Laios. He seems to understand that people, as a rule, (in Laios' case, he understands this about monsters - and eventually, all living beings) will act in their own interests, and if those interests conflict with yours, might harm you. But that's just their nature, and it's not something that should be held against them; you're also doing the same thing, after all. The crux of Laios' arc is precisely that he has to accept the responsibility of hurting someone else in order to achieve what he wants.

Kabru is deeply concerned with his own morals, what he should and shouldn't do, but mostly in the context of responsibility for the consequences - a responsibility he takes onto himself. He isn't scrupulous about what he needs to do in order to create the outcome he wants, but if he fails to create that outcome, then....

He blames himself to the point of thinking he should die. He doesn't blame Laios, or seem at all angry with him, despite concluding he should have killed him to prevent this outcome. That's because in his eyes, ultimately Laios was going to act according to his own nature, and it's Kabru's fault for not understanding that nature well enough. He's extremely confident in his ability to understand and predict others, (including elves and other long-lived people). Then, where does his conviction that mutual understanding is impossible come from?

Partially, it's the "mutual" part. I'm sure Kabru, who isn't able or willing to deny Otta's insinuation that Milsiril saw him more like a pet than a son, has felt that his full interiority, the depth of his feelings and his ability to grow, act, and think as a fully equal being, was something that the elves around him just couldn't grasp. Because that was their excuse for it, he came to understand this as a gulf between short-lived and long-lived beings, an inevitable difference in outlook caused by their different lifespans.

This experience might be part of what leads to his iconic “fake” behaviour. He trusts his ability to understand others, but if they aren’t able to understand him, then there isn’t any benefit to being honest about his feelings and thoughts. If his attempts to reach mutual understanding with his caretakers were never able to be fulfilled, then it isn’t any wonder that he reacts with such surprise and horror at blurting out his desire to be Laios’ friend.

In his experience, making yourself vulnerable in that way only leads to being hurt. Soothing him, hushing him, lying to him, talking to him like a child that isn’t able to use proper judgement – that’s an inadequate and deeply hurtful way to respond to genuine distress, the desire for autonomy, or disagreement. Ultimately, I think that’s why he comes out on the side of being grateful to Milsiril; because she did equip him with the skills and knowledge he’d need to reach his goal, and let him go.

Though he could understand them, they couldn't understand him. To the extent that was true - which I'm sure it was - it wasn't due to anything about lifespan. It was due to the elves’ racism, and the solipsitic mindset & prejudiced attitude that it caused them to approach him with.

Because, if it needs to be said, the idea that there is an unbreachable gap in understanding between the long-lived and short-lived species is not true. Marcille and Laios have a much greater difference in lifespan than any full elf from any short-lived person, and they’re able to understand each other – maybe not perfectly, but better than many other people who are closer in life-span to them.

That doesn’t mean that I think Kabru is wrong about this, however. Because there’s an interpretation of his statement that is reflected in his actions and is true. When he talks about his problem with elves, it’s not just their attitudes: it’s their power, and what they use it to do. They “explain nothing and take everything”. Though it’s presented in the guise of ‘guiding and protecting’, in fact it’s a simple case of a powerful nation using their military power, wealth, access to resources, and historically stolen land – including the island itself – to protect their own interests and advance their own agenda. That’s why they’d be able to show up, seize the dungeon, and forcibly take Kabru’s party and Laios’ party to the West. If Kabru wants to stop that from happening, or change that status quo, persuasion or a bid to be understood would be completely pointless. Between the political blocs formed by long-lived species and the interests of short-lived species, “mutual understanding”, given their current, unequal terms, would be impossible. This is something that we see reflected in Kabru’s actions; before he asks his questions about the dungeon, he grabs Mithrun as leverage. He never really attempts to persuade the canaries to see his point of view, because that would be pointless: they’re agents of the Northern Central Continent’s monarchy, and will act in its interests regardless of any individual relationship with him.  

I don’t think Kabru sees the different dimensions of this belief of his in quite such clear terms, however, as is evidenced by the other group who he thinks it’s impossible to communicate with.

Demi-Humans & Unknowable Objects

The other place that we see his conviction about the impossibility of mutual understanding is in the kobold extra.

I'm including the whole thing, because I think it's an excellent and clever piece of world-building. Aside from what it says about Kabru, which I'll expand on shortly, what this extra does is deconstruct and call into question the usual "fantasy ontological biology" present in these sort of DnD-like settings. Essentially, the kind of worldbuilding where a race (such as kobolds) can be described as war-like, and that's establishing something essential about their biological nature. That's common to the point that if Kui didn't include this, some people would probably come away thinking that's the case about, e.g., the orcs.

But here, despite what Kabru is saying, the information the reader actually gets is:

the conflict between short-lived humans and demi-humans such as kobolds is mostly over access to material resources that they need to survive.

These resources are scarce because powerful nations, such as the elves, have monopolised them.

Kabru, who has grown up in a place at the centre of these conflicts, ascribes essential, negative traits to a cultural group which was in direct conflict with his own. Communication with this other group is impossible; they aren't people, they're more like objects.

oh yes! just like this conflict between groups of tall-men, a conflict which the reader will immediately interpret as more clearly analogous to real-life racism. Our other protagonists also carry prejudices from growing up in a place where a marginalised group was in conflict with the dominant group over scarce resources. It's definitely impossible to communicate with these people, and you can only kill them.

Woah, when you say it like that, it sounds pretty bad!

But also, nobody walks away having had a realisation or unlearned their prejudices - because they don't have the tools they need to do that work. Yet. I do think, to an extent, it could happen - especially with Kabru, since it's suggested in the epilogue that Melini might become a safe-haven for demi-humans.

To focus in on Kabru, the key here is his statement that you should think of demi-humans as "unknowable objects". Even his extraordinary powers of understanding have seemingly hit a limit. Part of this is just inherited prejudice, and doesn't need to have a complicated psychological explanation, any more than the elves who were prejudiced against him need one.

But also... this is probably somewhat linked to the way demi-humans seem to be considered "pseudo-monsters". They're the place that the strict delineation between the human and the monstrous is permeated. Laios, who is not interested in humans, remembers and is excited by Kuro. Chilchuck and Laios argue over whether it's OK to eat a mermaid. Kabru's prepared to (pretend to) roll with the idea that Laios ate the orcs.

But these are people, aren't they? Of course, this is a social construction, as we see from the fact that in the Eastern Archipelago, the label of "human" is reserved for tallmen, but in most of the rest of the world it depends on some obviously arbirary classification based on number of bones; "demi-humans" aren't in any essential way monstrous, except to an extent in their appearance, and physical location - due to their marginal social status, they're pushed out to live in unsafe places such as dungeons.

Therefore, Kabru's view of demi-humans as fundamentally "other", unable to be understood - monstrous - could be read as akin to abjection, the psychoanalytical concept described by Julia Kristeva. In order to create a bounded, secure superego, that thing which permeates and calls into question the border between self and other, human and animal, life and death, is rejected and pushed to the margin.

“Not me. Not that. But not nothing, either. A "something" that I do not recognize as a thing.[...] On the edge of nonexistence and hallucination, of a reality that, if I acknowledge it, annihilates me. There, abject and abjection are my safeguards. The primers of my culture.” (Kristeva et al., 1984, p. 11) “It is thus not lack of cleanliness or health that causes abjection but what disturbs identity, system, order. ” (Kristeva et al., 1984, p. 13) “The pure will be that which conforms to an established taxonomy; the impure, that which unsettles it, establishes intermixture and disorder. [...] the impure will be those that do not confine themselves to one element but point to admixture and confusion.” (Kristeva et al., 1984, p. 107) (discussing food prohibitions in Leviticus)

This is both (due to its affinity with food-loathing and disgust) a very fruitful concept to apply to dunmeshi, and a psychoanalytical theory which I wouldn't exactly cosign as True Facts About Human Psychological Development. You may also know the abject from its utilisation in the classic essay "Horror and the Monstrous-Feminine" by Barbara Creed - that's a lot more approachable than Kristeva if anyone's interested.

Key here, though, is that through the symbol of the "demi-human" is embodied a step between "human" and "monster" - and that's a prospect that puts at risk the whole notion of an absolute separation between those two categories in the first place. To Laios, that's something wonderful, and to Kabru, it's terrifying. We can see this principle further embodied in the relationship both characters have with the notion of becoming monstrous.

To Laios, this is transcendent, and represents a renunciation of everything human - in fact, if it didn't, it wouldn't "count".

To Kabru, it's a deeply-held fear, established by his childhood alienation (due to his illegitimacy, his eyes, and perhaps also his neurodivergency), deepened by monster-related trauma and the sense of responsibility and survivors guilt he feels for what happened at Utaya. His identity as a human who is not monstrous is key to his sense of stability and safety; he doesn't want to touch monsters, he doesn't even want to see them.

To acknowledge a kinship, a possibility of similarity between the things he loves (humans) and the things he hates (monsters) would be more than touching them - it would be putting them inside him. We know, quite explicitly, that this notion is triggering to Kabru. He literally has what seems to be a flashback when he's about to eat the harpy omelette.

So he abjects it, classifying the demi-human as fundamentally unlike him - an unknowable object, or an object that he refuses to know. Because in understanding it, he would interject the things he hates and fears into his self, which is already, always under threat by that hated and feared object.

Of course, again, Kabru isn't very good at enacting this refusal in practice. For one, when he chooses between his desires and ingesting the feared object, eating monsters... he eats monsters. Part of this is treating himself badly, the "ends justify the means" mentality. His goal is to destroy all monsters, so if he needs to become monster-like to do that, he will. But part of it is also the other motivation that he didn't even seem to know about until he said it: he wants to become Laios' friend, and to learn from him how a person can like monsters. He wants, at least in some part of him, to reconcile the feared and hated object into something he can understand.

For another:

Kabru can speak the kobold language. In the first place, while this may have been common in Utaya, it also could have been something he chose to learn, an early expression of his interest in understanding and talking to all sorts of people. It isn't the kind of thing you learn if you believe that communication between yourself and the group that speak it is impossible, is it?

It's possible to harbour prejudices against a group while being kind to an individual, and given Kabru has those prejudices regardless of his reasons, that is what he is doing. But also, his treatment of Kuro doesn't reflect a sincerely held belief that he's an "unknowable object" at all. His approach is exactly the same as it is to any other person: an analysis of goal and motive, and an attempt to help if he's sympathetic and their goals align - going out of his way to give language and local knowledge lessons in secret. His conviction that Mickbell and Kuro will truly become friends when they can properly communicate is completely contradictory to any sense of demi-humans as fundamentally different, or impossible to reach mutual understanding with. To me, it seems like this self-protective shield against the corruptive force demi-humans as an idea present to his identity, this abjection, when Kabru is face-to-face with one, just simply can't hold up against his finely honed skill of intellectual empathy. Perhaps because he's autistic, it seems his "empathy" is less an emotional mirror response, and more a set of cognitive skills for analysis of others. That instinctual, emotional empathy might not trigger when presented with a member of an out-group, but if it’s possible for Kabru to turn his cognitive empathy off, we don’t see him do it.

This isn't to say that this prejudice doesn't affect his behaviour. For one, it could negatively impact his judgement of politics and policy, where individual people don't enter into it. For another, I'm not convinced he'd be willing to overlook Mickbell's exploitative relationship with Kuro if Kuro wasn't a kobold. As it is, since both of them are satisfied, he doesn't feel like he needs to intervene, regardless of the fact Mickbell isn't paying Kuro. But if Daya and Holm were in a relationship, and Holm took both Daya's and his own share from their ventures, but only compensated her in living expenses and kept the rest, do you think he'd tolerate it, for example? Even if she said it was OK?

Conclusion

The kelpie chapter establishes that "people can never know what monsters are really thinking." That isn't just true of monsters, though.

True mutual understanding is impossible - between anyone. We can never truly understand another person's heart. This is touched on in, for example, the existence of shapeshifters and dopplegangers. Even a monster that seemed like a perfect copy of a person wouldn’t be that person, and wouldn’t be a satisfactory replacement.

We’re intended, I think, to understand the winged lion's repeated suggestions to just replace people who have been lost with copies as something uncanny, which demonstrates the way that the winged lion never manages to attain a complete understanding of humans. A version of a person who was created to fulfil your memories of them, to be the person who you wanted them to be, would be a terrible, miserable thing.

Disagreeing, coming into conflict, and misunderstanding each other, are essential parts of what it means to be living beings, as fundamental as the need to eat.

The only thing to do is not to take more than you need to eat to survive, and not impose your own desires onto others. To do your best to sincerely communicate your desires, even if they're embarrassing or vulnerable or strange, like Kabru eventually does with Laios; like Laios does, bit by bit, with the people around him; like Marcille does, Chilchuck does, Senshi does... to hope they will accept you, and do your best to understand them in return.

We can re-examine, in that context, Kabru's line about the elves' tendency to "explain nothing and take everything".

They have the power to impose their preferred "menu" onto less powerful groups. And in that context, mutual understanding being impossible just means that they won't give up their power because they're asked nicely. Kabru's goal is to seize the truth that they won't give to him, and to create a situation where they can't take everything. Because he's accurately surmised that nothing about the treatment of short-lived races will change so long as the power imbalance remains. Despite the way he mistakenly ascribes part of that to "long-lived vs short-lived" or "human vs demi-human", the actual gulfs in understanding he identifies are structural, are about power and about access to material resources and safety.

I think he could come to recognise this. Yaad is teaching him political science after all, and while a prince's lessons on political science won't exactly get at much that's radical or invested in the interests and perspectives of the marginalised (Capital is a critique of for a reason after all...) I believe in Kabru's ability to learn critically and get more from a lesson than it was intended to teach.

[crrows]

BxW Coords

[fumifooms]

My life’s been a lie. I need to know where the misconception that Mickbell & Kuro open a noodle shop post-canon comes from

Kuro and Mickbell’s profiles both talk about it as if it’s a store that sells a bit of everything. A variety store, なんでも屋。

Mickbell’s sentence on the topic is 現在はクロとともに、なんでも屋を営んでいる。 And Kuro’s is 現在もミックベルにこき使われつつ、いっしょになんでも屋を営む。 No mention of noodles whatsoever. "Currently running an all-purpose shop with Kuro." "He is still being worked hard by Mickbell, and together they run a store that sells everything."

I thought maybe the confusion was because Mithrun’s profile had a similar wording that made people think it was the same thing, but Mithrun’s line straight up doesn’t mention anything about a store or noodles either, so. The assumption that Mithrun opens a noodle shop is fully from the comic about Fleki asking Mithrun to be pardoned, where really he only says offhandedly he’ll try making some.

Mick and Kuro’s Knicks Knacks!! It does suit them real well. I just wonder where they get their stock…

[teaforthotxxx]

Not me rereading Haikyuu and remembering that Kuroo’s fucking takeaway from his volleyball career was “sometimes you need to lower the net first” and “you need to teach them to have fun”. Like idk man in a sports manga where everyone is crying and losing their crap and being angsty (ref. Kageyama, Suga and Tsukki) about trying to make regular. I really love Kuroo’s approach. Cause at the end, Nekoma doesn’t win Karasuno. They lose the Garbage battle, they are upset BUT THEY HAD SO MUCH FUN!!

And that fun literally propels them into their future. All of the Nekoma team end up super successful and I can’t help but think its because they all decided to have fun before perfecting. Idk man. Kuroo is really the coolest imo. He’s not a champion, he’s not the best volleyball player but he becomes one of the most integral part of keeping the game alive and remembering the “fun” part of the game.

I know they aren’t as impressive as Seijou but they were so impt to someone like me who was frail and couldn’t really participate in physical education.

[plague-of-insomnia]

Hi, I saw a post a while ago looking at the original Japanese version of Sebastian's "I have gone through great pain to cultivate you" that I just can't seem to find anymore.

I have a feeling that it might have been one of yours, but it doesn't seem to be in the masterlist and Tumblr's search engine is no help. Do you know if that is a post you remember making or have any idea where else I might have luck finding it?

Thanks :)

Hey, this was a great ask and I'm sorry for the delay in replying. I've been really low on spoons and wanted to be sure I gave this question the attention it deserves.

So I was not the one who did that post, so that explains why you couldn’t find it. But perhaps this was the one you meant? It’s a really long one and only talks a little about that moment but I figured you may wanna see it anyway even if it’s not what you had hoped to find.

But I believe that post is using a fan translation (or maybe a version from the monthly chapters and not the volume, and changes were made in between those two releases) because their English translation is not the same as the one I have.

And now that we’ve gotten to this moment in the anime too, I thought we could compare the different versions:

The original Japanese manga version

The translation used in the cited post

The official English manga translation

The official English anime translation

My thoughts on all of this and how *I* would translate it

So I thought I would take this time to go ahead and look at this section myself and give my own thoughts on the translation/what Yana maybe was going for here.

This is gonna be a LONG post, so buckle up.

Below is from the cited post, with the Japanese side by side the English version they used.

Let’s look at the Japanese first.

Japanese

Sebastian says in the original:

せっかく

育てて

きたんです

掠め取られては

たまらない

A bit literally, this is what it means:

(I’ve) taken great pains

to raise (you) / nurture (you) / foster (your) growth

(for you) to be stolen (away from me)

is intolerable

Old Post English Translation

I went through the trouble of

cultivating** it.

So I won’t let myself be

robbed* of it.

Official English Manga Translation

I have gone to great pains to

cultivate** you.

I cannot afford

to have him steal* you away.

Official English Anime Translation

I’ve gone to the trouble of raising** you.

I won’t stand for anyone snatching* you away now.

My Thoughts

So now you've seen the original Japanese, with a fairly literal translation to give you a sense of the core meaning of what's being said here along with 3 different English translations: a fan (or older) translation, the official English manga translation from the volume and the official English anime sub from Crunchy Roll (specifically; other anime sites may have different sub translations).

So let's first look at the part about Seb losing out on Ciel, the bit about something being taken from him.

The word that Yana uses is shown above, kasumetoru, which you can see according to jisho.org means to snatch or steal. We saw three different English words used for this: rob, steal, and snatch, all of which fit with the Japanese meaning. I'll leave off my opinions on what I would pick until the end. But you can see that you can't really fault either of the three translators for their choice as each works in the context and with the original intent of the word itself.

But what about the more controversial part? The REASON Sebastian can't stand to have Ciel taken from him?

Let's first look at the original word Yana used:

You can see it has three possible meanings:

to raise/rear/bring up;

to train/teach/educate;

to promote the growth of/nurture/foster/develop

Now let's look at the ways the three above English translations approached this word:

Both manga translations went with "cultivate," while the anime went with "raise." How well do these two words fit with the original? Well, let's look first at how the English word "cultivate" is defined according to dictionary.com; pay attention especially to the highlighted definitions:

Those three meanings all align well with the three from the original Japanese, don't they? OK. But what about "raise"? How well does that work? That word has over thirty possible definitions, so I won't post them all here, only what's pertinent, but you can see them all here if you're especially curious.

Only two align with the context/meaning intended in this scene:

As you can see, the first of these two, "to grow or breed, care for, or promote the growth of" is a synonym for "cultivate." The second is the one that the dadbastian fans are latching hard onto, but that isn't completely disjoined from a couple of the meanings of cultivate, and that does fit with the various Japanese meanings.

So who did it better? How would I translate this?

Translation is not a science; it's tricky especially when you're moving from two languages that are as different from one another as English and Japanese are. The way Yana uses layered meanings makes things even more challenging. Sometimes, it comes down to simple preference on the part of the translator. That seems to be the case here, as I cannot really say anyone got things "wrong," despite having three disparate translations for the same lines.

I think I would have translated it this way:

I have taken great pains to cultivate you; I shan't stand anyone snatching you away.

Firstly, I know the first translation went with “it” as in “Ciel’s soul,” but I think “you” is a stronger choice here, and it’s what the other two translators went with, perhaps since Sebastian is directly speaking to Ciel here.

As for the rest, I personally prefer "taken great pains" over "gone through a lot of trouble," partly because it's less modern sounding and to me fits the way Sebastian speaks. I also like "cultivate," over "raise," because I think it not only fits Sebastian's manner of speech better (and we know he doesn't want to be seen as Ciel's parent), but it also has a more immediate and direct association with food. Yes, we "raise" food (as we see above they're interchangeable in English in this meaning), but I think that when English-speaking people read or hear that word they think more about kids first.

While ofc Sebastian HAS raised Ciel—he's fostered his education, watched out for his health and made sure he can pass as an earl, etc.—those are means to an end. Sebastian's main goal is to eat Ciel's soul, which he has already spoken about wanting to perfect so it'll be the most delicious it can be. Thus, I think keeping that association while having us remember his ultimate agenda is why "cultivate" is a slightly better choice than "raise."

The bit about Seb finding losing Ciel intolerable is where we see the most variation in the translations, and that's largely likely because the Japanese only needs a word while we need a whole phrase in English for it to make sense. I like "I shan't stand" because it's stuffy and old-fashioned and more possessive than some of the above options, in my opinion.

I also decided to go with "snatch" over stolen or robbed because that's in the Japanese definition and since literally Sebastian was imagining Undertaker scooping Ciel up and taking him away, I figured it fit.

So you can now decide for yourself how you'd like to interpret/translate this section, and you're welcome to dislike my version and prefer one of these others, too.

However, I think anyone who latches solely on the "raise a child" aspect of the meaning here is not paying attention to the full context of the story, characters, and layers of meaning in the Japanese original.

[dunmeshistash]

I think kobolds are not-disabled/still-need-accommodations given their trouble speaking human languages. That said, I don't see any evidence of sign language in setting to help them communicate w/ other races. I hope this isn't a case of people thinking sign language is too modern and thus immersion breaking. (If this was DnD they'd probably spontaneously develop psychic powers instead cuz that's much more reasonable *sarcasm*)

They definitely do need accomodations when living with humans! I forgot to mention them

Sign language is definitely a nice solution considering they can't physically speak common properly but it would probably only work for people already willing to communicate with them unfortunately.

I think Kabru would know sign language too considering he loves communication and humans. It's still in character that Kabru is teaching him common instead of sign language tho, since he probably wants Kuro to assimilate into human society. Plus he would need to teach both him and mickbell sign language for them to be able to speak to each other and Kuro doesn't want Mick to know

All excuses tho, I think this would be a fun thing to explore even tho dungeon meshi didn't. I bet if Mickbell knew this was a way for him and Kuro to speak to each other better he would put in the effort even if he had trouble with it, great idea for a cute fic

[plague-of-insomnia]

Honestly, I think a giant reason sooooo many antis hate sebastian so much is because they have warped Ciel’s character into the hapless innocent child victim, despite that going against his entire essence and everything the story has shown us—yes, even if all you’ve seen are the anime, including non canon anime.

So if Sebastian is planning to eat ciel, if he’s a demon, clearly he’s the epitome of evil because he wants to destroy this poor, sweet, completely innocent kid who never did anything wrong until the big bad demon came along to corrupt and twist him.

🤦

It goes along with how incapable antis are of understanding the layers of meaning and nuance Yana has imbued into her work. They don’t understand Ciel, so ofc how could they possibly understand what a nonhuman entity whose entire existence is so foreign to our own?

It’s easier for them to decide that HE is the ultimate evil than it is for them to accept the message of the story: true evil doesn’t come from demons but from other humans.

A demon did not rape Ciel and his twin.

HUMANS did that.

I honestly think more antis should fucking remember that.

not to always complain about antis but why do they read/watch kuro if they hate sebastian this much

he's the mc how do u have beef w him so bad, interpret him however u want but if you genuinely dislike him... why put yourself thru the torture of reading his story (and this is about him, no way to argue against that)

like are you just gonna ignore all his development with the other servants... he is the epitome of an allegorical queer coded outcasted non human character who finds kinship in other odd (queer) people. how are you ignoring that lol

you can interpret main characters as morally grey or evil (a lot of times they are) but atp it feels like antis hate him and ignore any changes or developments in his personality, at least acknowledge him as part of the 'phantomfam' he helped to create. there would be no phantomfam w/o sebastian because there would be no o!ciel and phantomhive manor w/o sebastian,,, hell, there'd be no kuroshitsuji w/o sebastian. actually fun fact it's called 黒執事 kuroshitsuji (black butler) not 貴族子 kizokuko (noble kid).

they hate him until they sexualise him into the molds they want, usually within the ships they like [nothing wrong with those ships per se but they're viewed as 'correct' while the most canonical ship is wrong(?)] or they only love him after they take away all his sexual characteristics and turn him into a cat loving spinster, a dad/mom figure with no other characteristics other than (1) love cat, (2) dad/mombastian, (3) cooking and cleaning, nothing else but that ruins him because he's not that flat of a character in the original work... from what we've seen he likes a lot of things, he enjoys playing this butler game with ciel, he likes being mean and flirty, he likes being around certain humans like agni who he genuinely seemed to respect despite being a demon, he likes the concept of death and finds it beautiful, he has an eye for fashion and a lot more.

the way they treat him is akin to how society treated women in the victorian era... either the angel of the house (maternal figure, or in his case, paternal but they do momify him a lot, no sexualised identity or made limited and very 'pure'/'demure') or the hated demonised prostitute (evil evil demon taking advantage of little boy, no parental feelings and no feelings AT ALL, worthless). it's laughable how half of the fandom have such an innate dislike of sebs that they want to deny the changes within him or in the best case scenario, they'd minimise it. not to mention how they want ciel to be the perfect little sex-repulsed victim but other people have made posts about that before. my focus is on sebastian who is so grossly mischaracterised by antis, they are either purposely misunderstanding him or just very obtuse.

you guys have two interpretations of him and both are either dead wrong or at best extremely misinformed lol

[minoudrien]

idk plagg’s cheese metaphors are kinda real af. he didn’t even purposely do this one but in kuro neko when he said “people always pretend like camembert is just like all the other cheeses when they know perfectly well that it’s the best of all! especially when you forget where you put it for a few months and it gets all runny and moldy…”

gross as a concept obvi but comparing it to actual events… maribug tries to pretend she loves chat noir the same way she loves all her other team members- as a partner. but when she loses chat because she wasn’t paying him as much attention for a little while (forgot where she put him…) she realizes just how much she needs him. literally waiting for a cheese to get perfectly “moldy” is like ladybug putting her feelings for chat noir on the side burner- they will only grow with time!

[katzkinder]

Layers of Death

Back from vacation! First of all, what the hell happened to the dashboard. this is so ugly, what the fuck

second, I come bearing a gift!

Specifically about this little word right here, and how clever its use actually for this transformation actually is

The Wiedergänger, as hello-kitty-vampire noted in her translation notes, shares many similarities with the strigoi and is your prototypical "vampire" creature you'll find in many places (kind of makes you wonder why so many different cultures have different versions of the same creature in their legends and where it originated from). The Wiedergänger itself it more of a "ghost," in some regards, arising from a corpse who has unfinished business, typically one where they seek to right some injustice done to them in life, such as Adam being murdered for an action he didn't commit, along with his body being defiled by germaine after he was buried. Germaine is guilty of very, very many accounts of abuse of a corpse.

Ahem.

the real meat of this, for me, is of course the overlap between the wiedergänger and the norse draugr (as if i ever talk about anything else). Unlike your strigoi, wiedergänger, jiangshi, or the mananaangal, just to name a few, the draugr isn't defined by life force sucking, but by their ability to inflict their own state of being, of undead-ness, upon others like a disease. they're also noted for being, well, corpse colored lol, ie, being black or deep blue, the signature colors of our boys up there. Their abilities include shapeshifting, dream walking (and will sometimes leave a physical gift as proof of their presence), and notably will o wisp will mark the boundary between the world of the living and their territory. Why is this notable? Because the "will o wisp" we hear of is the very same foxfire you'll also find in japanese folk tales, an eerie blue fire who leads travelers astray... Much like the blue fire Inner Sloth uses in battle!

One last thing. In the Hrómundar saga Gripssonar, the berserker of the tale transforms himself into a troll which blew fire and possessed long, black claws, leading to the hero to describe the draugr as a sort of cat like entity.

PS: rip mahiru, another legend about these ugly critters is that they would transform into a cat which would grow heavier and heavier as it sat upon its sleeping victim's chest until they suffocated. Cats... Really haven't changed ever, have they?

[wackus-bonkus-maximus]

Same anon who just asked about why you placed Adrien as a 7 instead of a 2, only to look deeper in the reblogs of your ML enneagram post and see you already answered it haha!

In friendly defense of 2!Adrien, I’d argue that his reactions to being stressed coming off as more of a 7 rather than a 2 is actually a perfect reflection of the effects of his abuse; it’s fear that drives his non-confrontation tendencies rather his own nature. I think Risk highlighted that a bit in revealing how Adrien does desire confrontation, even if he doesn’t act on it.

(I have always found it interesting to consider the role that trauma/neurodivergency plays in shaping a character’s personality, since it’s one of the flaws I feel most personality assessments can’t really account for.)

I also think Chat’s arguments with LB were more like to be confrontational than avoidant (thinking of the times he’s called her out and his romantic pursuit being the primary indicators), up until she became the Guardian. So then with S4, I’d consider it to be a gradual relationship shift that leads to Chat no longer feeling safe and secure enough in his position to confront her the way he once did, which is why he only tries a bit in Kuro Neko before running, and then doesn’t try at all in Strikeback.

I hope this doesn’t come off as too preachy or anything, just wanted to share my 2¢! Cause either way you slice it, your Adrien has always been brilliantly written and incredibly in-character to me, so you’ve clearly got a rock solid understanding of his character. ❤️

hello november anon and sorry for the delay! thank you so much for the ask and also for going back and looking through my prev posts. you know my teacher heart loves it when you do the readings! 😌 also you're definitely not the only one who believes adrien is a 2 rather than a 7! and while i know there are good arguments for both sides, i'll explain in depth my position on adrien's personality.

part 1 of the ask:

so here are the reasons i think adrien IS an enneagram type 7

adrien's motivation seems like that of a 7 to me: he wants to experience everything and be satisfied in every way he can. if he had a disney princess "i want" song, it would be "i want to go to school, i want to make friends, i want adventure in the great wide somewhere., i want to have fun."

the literal first shot of him in the show (if we use origins as a starting point) is adrien running away. nathalie asks him to please reconsider, he knows what his father wants, and adrien says, "but this is what i want to do." according to the enneagram institute, "sevens do not see themselves as the center of a community or family, but as members of a free-floating band of fellow adventurers whose own enjoyment is enhanced by being with others." going to school and having a new experience with new people is what's going to enhance adrien's enjoyment of life - not being the center of his family unit or the apple of his father's eye.

a 2's motivation would be to be as loved as possible and to make themselves neeed by those they most care about. while adrien definitely shows a desire to be loved and needed, especially by ladybug, i think his primary desire is for experience, and it's this from which all his actions- not just characteristics - are based. take for example his reaction to getting his miraculous vs marinette's (also in origins):

adrien is excited and intrigued and ready to go, as a 7 would be when offered a new experience - and a new way to satisfy their desire to try everything. marinette, as a 1, is quite the opposite: she is being put in a situation where she must do something right or fail, and therefore is stressed tf out. while marinette's motivation to be good/perfect fuels her anxious reaction, adrien's motivation to experience everything and be satisfied fuels his thrilled and slightly reckless reaction. that's why he charges out into battle without listening to all the instructions; his motivation was to escape the restraints of his life and try something new.

in growth, enneagram 7's take on the positive traits of 5's. in stress, they take on the negative traits of 1's. i have seen adrien exhibit these behaviors throughout the show on many occasions!

according to the enneagram institute, "Sevens have fear about their inner world. There are feelings of pain, loss, deprivation, and general anxiety that Sevens would like to stay clear of as much as possible. To cope with these feelings, Sevens keep their minds occupied with exciting possibilities and options— as long as they have something stimulating to anticipate, Sevens feel that they can distract themselves from their fears." therefore, while one can argue that adrien's wealth of knowledge and fun facts is a result of everything gabriel has forced him to learn (mandarin, piano, fencing, medieval horse colors), we can assume he at least was interested in it - and that seeking new knowledge like a 5 kept him from lingering in his sadness.

"i'll help you learn mandarin marinette" "i'll show you how to fence marinette" "most people think henry iv's white horse was white my lady" "do you need subtitles my lady i speak several languages"

now as to how adrien moves to the low parts of type 1 during the show: i think the main examples of this are the instances he adopts rigid, critical, and judgemental characteristics, which is potentially unpleasant for anyone who has to be around him.

first up, adrien's akumatized forms: chat blanc, ephemeral, celesticat

i bring up the akumas because, though adrien isn't in his right mind (by hawkmoth's akumas), they are examples of adrien being in extreme stress.

as chat blanc, adrien wants to either right the world or destroy it for being wrong - the critical supreme judgement an unhealthy 1 is capable of. he lashes out when contradicted, and is quite ruthless even to marinette, who he loves, in the name of executing judgement.

as ephemeral, adrien seeks to control time. (however, this is probably the weakest example because adrien was being amok-controlled in this instance and was acting on shadow moth's will, not his own.)

i include celesticat because while this is an example of a "good" akumatization, adrien was still under so much stress that an akumatization was able to take place. yet even while being in "good" stress, adrien still shows characteristics of 1: perfectionism, righteousness, taking control of the situation. he literally turns into a pure white angelic being, an embodiment of perfection. it's what he believes he has to do in order to salvage the situation. it's one of the more healthier moves from 7 to 1 i have seen depicted in media and is entirely plausible concept under the enneagram's theory! this just goes to show the depth and richness of his character.

next, we will discuss adrien's various alter egos:

cat walker

i've said it before and i'll say it again; cat walker is another move from 7 -> 1.

as chat noir, adrien is at the height of his 7-ness. he enjoys the freedom that his miraculous powers and secret identity gives him, and uses it as a means of escape from the regular constraints of his life and obligations. then in kuro neko when ladybug slights him, she denies him the fulfilment and satisfaction in reaching his full potential as chat noir (e.g., being of equal importance on the team as her) that he should be allowed. of course he becomes hurt and angry! she's stepping on his core desire in life.

according to enneagram coach dr. tom lahue (my favorite enneagram guy ((also a 7)), "type 7's typically deal with anger by trying to avoid it or deflect it. that really is the anger type of a 7 - deflective. deflecting things away." that's what i believe cat walker is: a stress reaction, a deflection of his anger with ladybug. he deflects his painful emotions into something he thinks is positive; a new start.

adrien is usually so joyful and optimistic, but this was a huge blow for him. dr. tom says the best way for a 7 to handle this anger is to be "real and genuine" when coming to terms with it, what does adrien do instead? he turns to a new alter ego. he chases the experience of fulfillment, only he does so by adopting a persona who is serious and perfectionist. obviously this was neither what adrien or ladybug needed, and that is because cat walker is a stress reaction who adrien cannot sustain without continued levels of unhealthy self-denial. this is the hardest he has gone to 1 in the show and what it took to snap him out of it was a level of reflection, analysis, and objectivity (that this was an unhealthy behavior) indicative of a type 5 - and which shows his progression to growth.

2. aspik

one can argue that aspik is more proof of adrien being a 2 than a 7 actually, as his motivations for becoming aspik were to woo ladybug. however, the stress response of a type 2 is to move to the negative qualities of type 8, which is to lash out at those who they believe have taken them for granted.

according to the enneagram institute,

"Average to unhealthy Twos seek validation of their worth by obeying their superego’s demands to sacrifice themselves for others. They believe they must always put others first and be loving and unselfish if they want to get love. The problem is that “putting others first” makes Twos secretly angry and resentful, feelings they work hard to repress or deny. Nevertheless, they eventually erupt in various ways, disrupting Twos’ relationships and revealing the inauthenticity of many of the average to unhealthy Two’s claims about themselves and the depth of their “love.”

as aspik, adrien was never resentful of ladybug for taking him for granted or making him feel rejected. as aspik, his goal was never to make himself needed by her. as aspik, he maintained some extreme levels of optimism that ignored the rational conclusion that he should give up for several thousand time loops. as aspik, he was able to let go and displace his hopes in himself to someone else - and run off to his responsibility as chat noir with high spirits (though i'm sure the ladrien kiss helped)

3. griffe noire

this has got to be the most stressful stress reaction i've seen on adrien. and you might say "but wackus he looks nothing like a type 1" and i say "JUST HOLD ON

going back to dr. tom's analysis on type 7's in anger, he says, "7's typically express their anger indirectly, e.g., through sarcasm, like 5's - like 6's sometimes... but they quickly try to move on and reframe into a more positive way." griffe noire, rather than telling jokes and puns to lighten the mood, mocks and ridicules poor toxinelle who has not convinced me she doesn't have a crush on him. 1's actually do the same thing when they are unhealthy; they criticize and blame and nag others for not being up to par, and by directing his anger at his situation onto toxinelle, griffe noire is doing the same.

dr tom goes on to say, "in some cases [7's] might take impulsive actions to try to free themselves from this feeling of being trapped... engaging in frenetic escapism in behaviors or addictions or substances to try to distance themselves from those who are frustrated with them... or their own anger/pain in life." we have seen griffe noire engage in multiple frenetic behaviors while running amok (haha), all of which are clearly attempts to redirect his pain and anger/ keep it from consuming him. for example, griffe noire takes chat noir's cataclysm to the chest as though it's a game. for another, he openly threatens to destroy the entire world with his super cataclysm. and of course, he is constantly abusing his miraculous by over-exerting his powers in a way only adults should. yet all of these destructive behaviors are still adrien's way of escaping his normal life, and his everyday pain. it's almost like his self-destruction is his addiction.

and yet by the end, it took the introspection of type 5 for griffe noire to realize that his behavior was unhealthy. he observed, he listened, he showed an inquisitiveness that brought him back from the brink. and he also upgraded his outfit so if that isn't a type 7 path to growth i don't know what is!

now i know i won't have convinced everybody, so i just want to drop this section from the enneagram institute's text on misidentifying 2's and 7's:

Although both types are gregarious and enjoy being with people, their interpersonal styles are noticeably different. The Two... would like to be the heart and soul of a family or community, the best friend or confidant everyone comes to for attention, advice, and approval. Twos want to be significant to others and on intimate terms with them, although sometimes they go too far, meddling too much and being too solicitous to make sure they are needed.

adrien is not focused on being needed by anybody, not even ladybug (although due to his romantic interest in her, i can understand why people think so). being the heart and soul of the team is not what motivates him; primarily, i think he just likes having all the experiences he wouldn't otherwise get to have without being chat noir.

By contrast... Sevens do not see themselves as the center of a community or family, but as members of a free-floating band of fellow adventurers whose own enjoyment is enhanced by being with others.... Sevens may thus exhibit a certain generosity, although their motives may well have less to do with helping needier friends than with making sure that they themselves have a good time by having others around.

this isn't to say that adrien is just focused on having a "good time." i see that his enjoyment is amplified when he is surrounded by people he loves and cares for. he is motivated to have good experiences, and be fulfilled by trying everything, and becoming close to people and forming loving relationships is just a happy byproduct of that.

now there ARE several caveats to my analysis which provide potential arguments against typing adrien as a 7 - and which i can touch on briefly before i close:

adrien's abuse: i understand that trauma and anxiety can affect personality deeply. i'm not qualified to speak on this, or on how it should or shouldn't affect any personality type. i can only say that i think adrien has acted pretty consistently under stress as far as the show depicts

inconsistent characterization: i think we can all agree that ml won't be winning any awards for its consistency in characterization. which i know sounds contradictory to what i just said about how it depicts adrien under stress, but i think there IS a lot of discrepancy in this show and over the course of 9 years with different teams of writers all trying to execute one person's vision, inconsistencies are bound to happen.

thank you again for the ask, anon, and thank YOU if you have read all the way through! tell me your thoughts, if you make it down here - whether you agree/disagree or are just nodding along and letting me indulge in my enneagram brainrot! this is an entirely in-good-faith interpretation of mine, and i'd love to see other opinions if you have them!

[protect-namine]

I should archive my own lore notes as well, since I have the power of tumblr's tag system at my fingertips (makes posts easier to find and archive).

important world building concepts to understand wuthering waves lore:

frequencies: everything in wuwa is made of sound waves, and all world building stems from this concept. weapons are sound waves, people are sound waves, even concepts like fear and war are convertible to sound waves. everything is sound waves, also called frequencies. all frequencies can be transformed or distorted. frequencies also decay over time (ending in silence) and are usually not stable for long. this is why waveplates deplete over time, and why we use crystal solvents to stabilize.

resonators: some humans can directly manipulate vibrating frequencies (create "reverberations"), which gives them special powers that alter reality. for example: havoc rover can transform literal sound into feather blades, or gather them into an attack.

the lament: there is an ongoing calamity known as "the lament" (literally: music about grief) which causes destructive reverberations and other phenomena. the lament is what changed solaris-3 and reduced everything to sound-based physics, as well as brought waveworn phenomena like the etheric sea and tacet discord outbreaks.

remnant energy: holds "memories" but it's probably more likely that they are "stable" frequencies that haven't decayed or lost information or been distorted. aalto in act v: "various events across space and time from every dimension are recorded in the form of remnant energy." retroact rain is condensed remnant energy from the etheric sea. with these in mind, we can now think of reverberations as frequencies that have started the process of decaying, or frequencies that are no longer stable.

frequencies are data: frequencies can linger and be stored or act as data. frequencies are information. when tacet discords are defeated, their lingering frequencies create "echoes" of themselves. everyone except rover will store this as data in the gourd, and are able to use echoes in battle by simulating that data. this concept also allows us to simulate environments and events from memories. interaction with retroact rain and sonoro spheres can simulate the past because they contain the data and we "resonate" with them. when retroact rain happens over a large area, illusions pulled from the memories of multiple people can manifest at once. aalto explains that this is similar to how resonators "resonate" with the world as well. another example is the tower of adversity, which is a man-made sonoro sphere meant for simulating battles for the purposes of training.

frequencies can combine/converge: for example, rover can absorb echoes (others just store them in the gourd). tacet discords feed on other frequencies to keep themselves stable — hence why they attack us or even each other. they can also learn to mimic the frequencies they absorb often. ovathrax absorbs weapon frequencies from the norfall barren. from here, we can see why threnodians are more powerful than normal tacet discords. "if civilizations represent mankind's collective will, the threnodians embody our fears and struggles." threnodians can feed on the collapsed will of humanity (remember, everything is made of frequencies, and I really mean everything), and crownless and dreamless (ovathrax) fed on frequencies of "war" which is always abundant especially since the lament started

tacet fields: where tacet discords originate. longer dormant periods mean that the tacet discords are weaker. tacet fields connect to an "unknown space" through a white resonance cord, and feature a tacet mark and the etheric sea. now, who else do we know came from an unknown space with a tacet mark and "fell" (was pushed by a goddess) from the etheric sea?

convenes: I also think it's interesting that the way convenes works is that we created a white resonance cord and pull someone from the etheric sea. if you fight the crownless, you have interact with the resonance cord as well. really makes you wonder if threnodians and tacet discords are really any different from resonators. they both resonate with other frequencies. but what makes a resonator's own frequency more stable than a tacet discord, who has to keep feeding on others to be stable?

[gateau-au-earl]

i don't know why i keep doing this to myself but i'm trying to imagine what the end of kuro would look like and its just devastating no matter what ;-; when ociel gets his soul eaten, how would seb do it? what about the servants, or lizzie, or the midfords, how would they react? would finny try and stop sebastian from doing it (like in the green witch) or would seb keep the whole thing a secret from them ..

it also feels weird because kuro has been apart of a majority of my life so i can't imagine a time when there's just no new kuro content .. for now i'll just enjoy the kuro renaissance and eat my food!

[bittersweetresilience]

Adrien Agreste and Borderline Personality Disorder

DISCLAIMER: I've been a bit low on spoons this week, so I haven't gathered as much evidence as I probably could have. Also, I am but a humble student in clinical psychology. This is mainly a thought compilation for @moonieratty!

To introduce the topic, without going into it too much, personality is described by features and behavioral patterns, or traits, consistent across situations and across time. Personality disorders are therefore enduring patterns of highly maladaptive traits evaluated in personal and sociocultural context (Dozois, 2019, p. 290).

Like other disorders, personality disorders have diagnostic criteria. The DSM is used primarily for diagnosis in the US and Canada while the ICD is used more widely in Europe and other places. I'm more familiar with the DSM, but I've included a brief section on the ICD to be comprehensive. It ended up a bit longer than anticipated, so let's go below the cut. Warning for discussions of abuse, self harm, and suicide, and a brief mention of substance use.

Overview of Borderline Personality Disorder

BPD is prevalent in a small percentage of the population, about 1-2% by varying estimates, and is characterized by instability across domains of emotions, identity, interpersonal relationships, and behavior. Its onset is usually in late adolescence or early adulthood and symptoms may diminish with age, after one's thirties or forties, especially with therapeutic intervention. Along with ASPD, it has been the focus of a lot of clinical research; it is unfortunately associated with high rates of non-suicidal self-injury and suicide (APA, 2022, pp. 754–755; Dozois, 2019, pp. 308–309).

Etiological factors for BPD include both biological and environmental disturbances. Of note to our discussion is the heightened risk for BPD in cases of child abuse or neglect, as well as growing up with another family member with a serious mental health condition (NHS, 2022). It's been well established that Gabriel is emotionally neglectful if not outright abusive toward Adrien in multiple ways, so this is a clear risk factor. In addition, although I won't argue definitively for Gabriel having a psychological condition, he did keep Emilie's body in the basement, so there is clearly some kind of disturbance going on.

From a cognitive-behavioral perspective, Linehan argues that BPD stems from families who consistently invalidate childhood emotional experiences and "oversimplify the ease with which life's problems can be solved," which may cause children to learn to seek attention and communicate with others through emotional outbursts (Dozois, 2019, p. 297). This rings true for Adrien and Gabriel as well.

I have to apologize for my son, Ladybug, he's like his mother. Way too overly dramatic. (Jackady)

It doesn't seem like this is the first time Gabriel has thought this, and labeling an emotional reaction as being overly dramatic is very much invalidation of it. As for emotional outbursts, Adrien has had quite a few, mostly as Chat Noir. More on this later.

To round out this first section, attachment theory proposes a connection between poor parent-child attachments and BPD relationship difficulties. Specifically, maladaptive behavior in relationships may stem from childhood development of an anxious-ambivalent attachment style, where intense fears of abandonment interfere with a strong desire for intimacy (Dozois, 2019, p. 310). You can clearly see this in Chat Noir's relationship with Ladybug, and I'm sure other people have discussed Adrien's attachment style more in depth, but suffice to say I think this is an apt description.

Argument from DSM-5-TR

In the DSM, personality disorders are primarily diagnosed on a categorical model. There are a few general criteria which I won't be going into, but I will highlight that personality disorders are stable and pervasive, and would be diagnosed only if they were leading to significant distress or dysfunction. Adrien's mental state is not great, so the latter shouldn't be a problem, but this show does not always pay attention to consistency, so I'm going to be speculating some. Everything in this section is cited to the relevant DSM entry unless otherwise stated.

The DSM characterizes BPD with instability in relationships, self image, and affects, as well as marked impulsivity. It has no exclusion criteria, so BPD can be and frequently is comorbid with other disorders like mood disorders, PTSD, and ADHD. Of the below criteria, five need to be met in order for a diagnosis to be made.

Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment

Hey, where're you going? . . . So you're allowed to know her true identity, but I'm not? (Syren)

You're not really replacing me with a turtle, are you? (Anansi)

A lot of people have delved into Adrien's abandonment issues, which feature most prominently in his relationship with Ladybug. His fears of being replaced result in him seeking reassurance from Ladybug, and he can lash out if he does not receive the response he hopes for. Ladybug is his world, and he wants to be hers, so anything infringing on that feels to him like a threat of being abandoned, and he does not like it very much.

Impulsive behaviors like giving up his ring can be interpreted under this lens: he can avoid abandonment by doing the abandoning first. Then it will be him leaving, and not the other way around.

I also interpret Adrien's nightmare (Le Marchand de Sable) as being a fear of being alone as much as it is a fear of being trapped.

Unstable and intense interpersonal relationships alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation

We'll be united, more powerful and free. We'll defeat Hawk Moth, then we can both run away to an island! Far away from everything. We will live off nothing but fruits, and we will have a little pet hamster and we will name it— (Le Patineur)

I just can't do this anymore. I give up… on everything. Even you . . . If I become Chat Noir again, Ladybug will just end up rejecting me, over and over. (Kuro Neko)

Even though Adrien mostly keeps his head on straight regarding what he's owed and not owed by other people, his relationship with Ladybug is full of highs and lows. He thinks Ladybug is the most amazing girl, but this can recoil quickly into feeling as though Ladybug doesn't care about him enough or isn't meeting his needs.

Furthermore, he developed this idealization of Ladybug as a potential lover or caregiver at one of their first meetings (Cœur de Pierre), and continually sought to spend time together and share the intimate details of their secret identities early on. These are all common to individuals with BPD, as is the switch from idealization to feeling as if the other person "does not care enough, does not give enough, or is not 'there' enough." Ladybug is the only person Adrien consistently projects this instability and intensity on, which might be something interesting to explore.

Identity disturbance: unstable self image or sense of self

When I was a kid, I always wanted to be what my parents wanted me to be! (Exauceur)

But, does that mean Chat Noir is who I really am? Deep down inside? (Kuro Neko)

With all the secret identities, it isn't surprising that Adrien fits this criterion, but canon even explicitly draws a link between Adrien's unstable sense of self and his childhood experiences. He doesn't know who he is, and he distracts from this by being Chat Noir, only to struggle even more when he feels useless and underlooked as his hero self. His behavior shifts dramatically between trying to prove himself with grand gestures and refusing to participate or lashing out. There is definitely something to discuss on this front.

Impulsivity in at least two potentially self-damaging areas

Giving you some extra time . . . I trust you to bring me back, m'lady. (Gamer 2.0)

There are only two liars left in Paris and one of them knows the ultimate way to catch her attention . . . Crazy about you, m'lady. (Mensonge)

This is walking a thin line between impulsivity and suicidal behavior, which would be excluded from this criterion, but I'll list self sacrifice here because I can see an argument for Chat Noir's impulsive behaviors being out of love or the desire to be useful. There may still be some self injurious intent or euphoria, but Chat Noir does have faith in Ladybug to bring him back eventually. Nevertheless, this is impulsive and unhealthy. Chat Noir jumps too quickly to this option to have thought it through.

I can't think of another area, because Adrien isn't old enough for reckless driving, spending, substance use, or sex. This is also a kids' show. Just presenting these options for fanfiction writers out there.

Recurrent suicidal or self mutilating behavior, gestures, or threats

I... I don't know what to do! (Chat Blanc)

This is all our fault . . . Cataclysm. (Culpabysse)

By itself, what happened in Chat Blanc would not be solid evidence, as that was an unprecedentedly traumatic situation. Combined with Culpabysse, though, there is a strong case to be made for at least passive suicidality for this to be able to come up as an option.

You could also interpret the self sacrifice in this category. Suicidal behavior in individuals with BPD is often preempted by fears of rejection or abandonment, so an interesting analysis could be made on this front.

Affective instability due to marked reactivity of mood

He's still only thinking of himself! I just want this terrible day to be over and done with! I hate Christmas! (Pire Noël)

Sorry! Sorry! I didn't mean to make you so mad. I get it. You're sick of me . . . No one can help me, Kagami. (Glaciator 2)

Adrien's prolonged episodes of anger and despair reflect a high reactivity to emotional stressors, especially interpersonal ones. In general, he just doesn't feel very well unless something is actively bringing him joy. Most of his outbursts are brief, though, and I will discuss them as part of a later criterion.

Chronic feelings of emptiness

I'm not Adrien, so I wouldn't know if this is the case, but I can say he has experienced at least one depressive episode (Kuro Neko) and emptiness would not be unfamiliar. You can look at him and decide.

Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger

How was your amazing evening with your "friends"? . . . What do you think? (Glaciator)

Why not? No one'll know if I quit. No one'll care! (Syren)

A two-person plan?! There's only one two-person plan, and that's Ladybug and me! (Sentibulleur)

Give me a break, Miss "I can't even come up with a superhero name"! (Hack-San)

Anger in individuals with BPD can manifest as bitterness, sarcasm, or recurrent verbal outbursts, which Chat Noir absolutely exemplifies. These outbursts are often followed by feelings of shame or guilt and contribute to a feeling of being bad. Chat Noir apologizes after being harsh in Glaciator, and I wouldn't be surprised if he felt badly about the other times. Again, these outbursts are often precipitated by interpersonal fears and perceived threats of abandonment. Unlike other symptoms, this specific one tends to be unique to BPD.

Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociation

I cannot recall any evidence for this but headcanon away, my friends.

All in all, I think Adrien has a strong case for BPD presentation according to the DSM. Canon is not always consistent, but I think it presents an interesting and mostly coherent narrative for this lens. From this perspective, Adrien's behavior reflects a deep intolerance of being alone and a dependence on other people to define the self.

As a corollary, BPD behavioral patterns are frequently linked to self sabotage and self undermining right when a goal is about to be realized, which could manifest as dropping out of school right before graduating or ending a relationship when it seems to be going well. Food for thought. Individuals with BPD may also feel more secure with transitional objects like pets than with interpersonal relationships, which could reflect in Adrien's relationship with Plagg.

To add some subjective understanding to this clinical mumbo jumbo, I've added a source of genuine BPD experiences below (Mind, 2022).

Argument from ICD-11

With the release of the ICD-11, a dimensional model for diagnosis of personality disorders became the new standard. What this means is that individuals are no longer labeled as having 'histrionic' or 'dependent' or, indeed, 'borderline' personality disorders, but are rather assessed as having any form of personality disorder on a sliding scale of severity and with trait domain specifiers (Swales, 2022). To put it more simply, people are diagnosed only with a general personality disorder or personality difficulty which can be optionally specified as deviating on one of the personality traits in the Big Five model, which is well established in personality psychology.

This move has several benefits. Stigmatization related to particular personality disorders can be reduced, and differential diagnosis and comorbidity between personality disorders becomes irrelevant. However, people retain access to treatment and support. Evidence-based treatments like dialectical behavior therapy are particularly well established and crucial for BPD; for this pragmatic purpose, the ICD contains one additional specifier for borderline pattern personality disorder (Bach et al., 2022; Swales, 2022).

The DSM and ICD are designed to be compatible with each other in many ways, and in this case, the borderline specifier in the ICD is directly lifted from the criterion of the DSM (WHO, 2023, 6D11.5). Based on our previous discussion, Adrien would be equally qualified for a diagnosis in France. I would likely describe his personality disorder with moderate severity, where multiple areas of functioning are affected and self harming behaviors may be present, but not all areas or relationships may be equally impacted and traits are not as rigid and inflexible (WHO, 2023, 6D10.0–6D10.2).

Interestingly, the ICD includes three additional manifestations of borderline pattern which are optional and may vary across time (WHO, 2023, 6D11.5).

A view of the self as inadequate, bad, guilty, disgusting, and contemptible

An experience of the self as profoundly different and isolated from other people; a painful sense of alienation and pervasive loneliness

Proneness to rejection hypersensitivity; problems in establishing and maintaining appropriate levels of trust in relationships; frequent misinterpretation of social signals

I'm fascinated by the number of adjectives in here. I simplified very slightly, as I did with the DSM criteria, but I had to keep all these adjectives. Anyway, I won't elaborate for too many more paragraphs, so let's say sentimonster moment and leave it at that. I will spare you my mirrored Félix essay. For now.

Qualifications and Limitations

First of all, Adrien is a teenager. The distinguishing factor between a personality disorder and regular adolescent difficulties would be longevity and identity concerns beyond his developmental phase (APA, 2022, p. 758). Second of all, Adrien has a uniquely terrible home life and magical problems. Some of his behaviors could be normal considering his experiences and sociocultural context, and this matters when it comes to psychological evaluation. Take everything with a grain of salt!

More generally, the categorical model of the DSM has several issues, not to mention diagnostic issues related to culture, gender, and stigma. Some but not all of these issues are addressed by the dimensional model it includes in a later section, which shares theoretical foundations with the model of personality disorders in the ICD. Even so, issues remain. Diagnosis, access to treatment, and political statements are intrinsically linked in complex ways. I won't get into all of the nuances, but be safe, remember this is a fictional character, and keep an open mind.

REFERENCES:

American Psychiatric Association. (2022). Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders (5th ed., text rev.). https://doi.org/10.1176/appi.books.9780890425787

Bach, B., Kramer, U., Doering, S., di Giacomo, E., Hutsebaut, J., Kaera, A., De Panfilis, C., Schmahl, C., Swales, M., Taubner, S., & Renneberg, B. (2022). The ICD-11 classification of personality disorders: A European perspective on challenges and opportunities. Borderline Personality Disorder and Emotion Dysregulation, 9(1). https://doi.org/10.1186/s40479-022-00182-0

Dozois, D. J. A. (2019). Abnormal psychology: Perspectives (6th ed.). Pearson.

Mind. (2022, September). What does BPD feel like? https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/types-of-mental-health-problems/borderline-personality-disorder-bpd/experiences-of-bpd/

National Health Service. (2022, November 4). Causes - Borderline personality disorder. https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/borderline-personality-disorder/causes/

Swales, M. A. (2022). Personality disorder diagnoses in ICD-11: Transforming conceptualisations and practice. Clinical Psychology in Europe, 4(Special Issue). https://doi.org/10.32872/cpe.9635

World Health Organization. (2023). International statistical classification of diseases and related health problems (11th ed.). https://icd.who.int/

[plague-of-insomnia]

I also wanna jump on and say that perhaps there’s also an element of possessiveness and pride that is why Sebastian especially dislikes when Ciel has outside sweets and perhaps why he indulges him more as time goes on— Sebastian enjoys doing things the human way now, I think (or as “human” as anything he does ever gets), and I think it’s at least partly because he can take even more satisfaction in a job well done.

He’s an arrogant perfectionist with a pride kink so I could see him wanting to always come up with ways to please Ciel partly because it strokes his own ego.

I also wanna point out that Agni also made Sebastian put Ciel’s health first before orders, so later Seb indulging Ciel is going contrary to two other butlers’ advice, in a sense, making it even more likely (to me) it’s a conscious choice on his part.

The Tiniest Analysis and Headcannon:

As you’re probably well aware, Black Butler has more “Being Devoured” allegories than a Hannibal episode. But there was one thing I noticed and hear me out:

Ciel loves his tiny little treats. He’s always sneaking them, as well, most kids his age will. And throughout the series, Sebastian is always chiding him about this.

I originally thought this behavior was because Tanaka never spoiled o!Ciel due to dental hygiene (and maybe illness reasons). From this conversation Sebastian probably is following in Tanaka’s Footsteps as a “Butler” however….

I wonder there’s also an Allegory here. Ciel can eat anything he chooses, except his tiny little treats (when he wants to). As Sebastian can kill anyone he pleases, except for his master. In the cover art, Sebastian likes to dress Ciel up in outfits that match his food, (Thank you @mister-astringent for pointing this out in this post!) I wonder if the restriction is a purposeful mentality.

“If can’t indulge, then neither can you.”

[fumifooms]

Mickrin

Fifth entry of my “Dunmeshi rarepairs I will birth with my own hands if I have to” series. This one’s straight up embarrassing, like of course the shadow version of Chilchuck and Marcille would get me.

It suddenly grabbed me out of nowhere. What got me thinking about it is this exchange, first comic third panel, because like… Woah. He knows she has a thing for Kabru? Or something. And he has NO FEAR. Like it’s so forward and has 0 pretenses lmao. And then I thought… And oh no. Oh no.

"I can fix him" x "I can make her worse"

Very uptight and strict and rules-following and too self-aggrandizing tbh x will not hesitate to insult you to your face and sleazy and free spirit…. Kuro is involved in an ot3 of sorts in my head and basically they drag her into Situations of various moral standing aka scams or idk going to a club god forbid. I think she needs to relax and get taken down 1 peg maybe, and I think he needs like…….. Someone to teach him what is unhealthy lmao, also remind him to get work benefits, and if they can like get to feel safe and comfy with one another (and god just the road there would be a beautiful trainwreck to watch) they would be gossip besties worsties.

Kabru needs to be the epitome of morals but like, if it’s Mickbell she can lower the bar… Just for him… <3 She can fix him just a little and she’ll be like "wow! Ok I can settle for this amount of upstanding behavior from you Mickbell you get a gold star"

I never expected it ok I read this extra expecting nothing and god knows why I saw him be like "hey u like Kabru right. You’re his babysitter right. Which poor sap is being Kabru’s maid" with 0 fear and her being so casually pissed back at him and idk, how they’re so comfy being not polite with one another but they’re still coworkers-friends despite it… Crazy for how prickly they both are that they manage that much. They bicker and see each other as annoying at best but weirdly dependable and friends despite it all and……….. I am going to grow them in a lab and observe how I can make it work

MICKBELL IS A REBOUND MORE AT 9??? Maybe Rin and Mickbell have a one night stand and then the aftermath dynamic is this….. She probably regrets it. And then it gets more complex and grows into something odd as she becomes hyperaware of him and they have this little complicity thing going on….

I think cuddling with Kuro (who would be more like a platonic protective & soothing presence in his and Rin’s relationship rather than romo) would destress her actually I think she needs and deserves it. Go to a dog cafe bbygirl it’ll fix you. So what I’m saying is the three of them watch a movie and Rin and Mickbell are sitting on Kuro’s laps and everyone is so comfy. Kuro’s legs die halfway through but he’s self-sacrificing it’s fine….. Actually Mick is on his laps Rin’s just nuzzled into his side. There, fixed. I am so weirdly invested in them… They’re funky to think about. Rin seeing Mickbell and Kuro like "you guys are aware that what you two have is fucked up right" and then joining them in the messy dynamic 🤝  Put them in situations. That will be all.

The sheer amount of sass on their own, let alone together…

Make them get drunk together it’ll be glorious