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thickenmyblood · 1 year ago

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why did laurent start dating / having sex with maxime, even before nicaise found out? maybe this is something we find out in ch. 20, but throughout hiuh i’ve really struggled to understand or empathize with laurent in this area. you’ve mentioned him being self-destructive, or how it was good for his ego to bring a date in front of damen. but why did he feel the need to throw it in damen’s face when damen was the one who got dumped? why would he let maxime call him baby and walk all over his boundaries when this guy is a total stranger? i know some people have speculated that maxime is a uncle-stand in, but to me that doesn’t parallel bc there the abuse happened because laurent did (unfortunately) love and trust his uncle at the beginning, which enabled his uncle to abuse him. i’m honestly really trying to see where this sexual self-harm aspect of laurent comes from when it’s with a complete stranger who doesn’t seem to like laurent as a person or give him any real affection. he said sex was the foundation of their relationship, which seems odd for an ascetic person like laurent who even in hiuh canon doesn’t seem to have engaged in that kind of relationship before dating damen, when he was in a way worse physical and emotional state, unless i’m wrong.

i really, really hope this doesn’t come off as criticizing or accusatory in any way — it is your story and you can characterize laurent any way you want! to me it’s felt like this is the one area so far where laurent has been extremely defensive and refuses to take responsibility, even though it really hurt damen — not just being jealous, but being compared to maxime over and over again by laurent’s friends and implicitly by laurent himself — not to mention how it hurt nicaise. yes, damen had flings, but he didn’t try to replace laurent after two months or ever shove it in laurent’s face. and yet it feels like damen over-apologizes for ever asking about maxime or suggesting laurent’s behavior was harmful. i don’t see how damen could get over this massive insecurity when laurent appears to ridicule or dismiss him for bringing it up, like with the condom conversation or the pet name issue.

feel free to ignore this message, but always appreciate hearing why you chose a particular characterization!

hello! i get this question every once in a while so i thought i'd answer it today since we're about to be done with the story. i didn't take it as an attack or anything and it's a very cool question!

but why did he feel the need to throw it in damen’s face when damen was the one who got dumped?

in a way, reading your ask, i think you answered some of these things yourself. why did he bring maxime to a bunch of events knowing damen would be there? because he wanted the upper hand, he wanted to be seen as having moved on (remember that he thinks damen has moved on, too), because it's an ego thing. but why do it if he was the one who dumped damen? same answers, but i'd add that it's implied in the story that laurent was surprised and hurt by how easily damen went along with the break up. laurent brings it up, says he can't do it anymore, and damen just goes to work and never comes back. once again, in a toxic and insecure way, there was a part of laurent that wanted damen to fight for it, to say "wait, let's turn things around" or something. obviously, that didn't happen, and laurent interpreted that as confirmation of a lot of negative thoughts he was already dealing with (damen wants out of this but he doesn't know how to do it, damen's too "nice" to say that he wants out, damen is looking for excuses to start arguments bc he's trying to get me to end this, etc.)

this is not me justifying laurent in any way. was it childish and immature to bring maxime to events bc he knew damen would be there and he wanted, along with all the reasons listed above, to make damen jealous? yes, probably. is it petty? yes. is it ooc? i don't know. i think laurent does exhibit some pettiness in the books.

why would he let maxime call him baby and walk all over his boundaries when this guy is a total stranger? i know some people have speculated that maxime is a uncle-stand in, but to me that doesn’t parallel bc there the abuse happened because laurent did (unfortunately) love and trust his uncle at the beginning, which enabled his uncle to abuse him. i’m honestly really trying to see where this sexual self-harm aspect of laurent comes from when it’s with a complete stranger who doesn’t seem to like laurent as a person or give him any real affection.

this part of the question is a bit more complicated for me to explain. i 100% agree with people's complaints that in this aspect hiuh laurent is ooc (compared to canon laurent). in the books, he doesn't sleep with anyone but damen, so everything regarding laurent/other men is always going to be ooc in some way (unless it's non con, i suppose).

maxime has to be a stranger. maxime has to be someone laurent doesn't care about, doesn't value, doesn't respect. it would never work between them if maxime was not a stranger, which is ultimately what happens in the fic (let's, for a second, ignore the fact that they also don't work out bc lamen are in love lol). when maxime wants more, laurent cuts him out.

why does he have to be a stranger? because hiuh laurent's biggest issue in this story is that he can't be vulnerable enough to be loved and accept that love. he loved damen, but he couldn't get to a level of vulnerability that allowed him to explain himself, to show himself to damen as he really is, and without that a relationship can't last. when you feel like you have to hide parts of yourself from the person you love, eventually that turns into resentment and anger and hurt.

when he starts sleeping with maxime, he's not looking for another boyfriend. he's not looking for love. he's not sleeping with maxime because he's too horny to function either. he lets maxime fuck him because there is something to prove. and here I have to apologize because to me this detail was so clear during my writing process that I'm only now realizing I did not do a good enough job of integrating it EXPLICITLY into the story. what is there to prove? laurent has only ever slept with two people in his life and only damen was a pleasurable, consensual situation. so, here's the setting: laurent and damen break up, they go no contact, months pass, laurent is STRUGGLING (nicaise mentions this time and time and time again in the fic), laurent has no way of knowing that damen is also miserable, laurent has no way of knowing that damen hasn't moved on (damen is, actually, at this point in time, fucking other people). laurent isn't looking for love or dates or romance, but then maxime shows up and he gives laurent an opportunity to prove to himself several things:

he has effectively moved on from damen (in his mind, having sex with other people = the ultimate 'i'm done with damen" move)

he is in control. he has only had consensual sex with one person in his life, which gives damen symbolic power over him in a weird, fucked up way. or... maybe the word isn't power, but status. damen has a status in laurent's mind and memories because he's the first person laurent CHOSE to have sex with, the first person he loved and showed him it could be good, etc. as long as damen maintains that status, laurent will never stop thinking about him, will never have anything to compare damen to and say "see, it wasn't that big of a deal". which brings me to...

he wants to minimize damen. he wants dismiss what damen meant to him, what their entire relationship meant, so it can be easier to move on. how do you move on if you're thinking "oh I broke up with the love of my life lol"? laurent needs to tell himself what he had with damen wasn't unique, wasn't that special. he can have it again (the SEXUAL part).

needless to say, this fails. he has sex with maxime and finds that it's nothing like it was with damen because it's WORSE, because having sex with damen was having sex with someone who knew him and loved him and respected him. laurent has sex with maxime but he's still thinking about damen, he's still in love with damen, the same way damen is having sex with kyra or trying to date iris while thinking and missing laurent.

once this realization sort of sinks in (yes, he can have sex with other people, yet that doesn't erase damen's status in his brain bc damen was special for a bunch of reasons I'm not gonna type in here - THEY'RE IN LOVE, YOUR HONOR) that's when the self-harm comes into the picture. (this is discussed a bit in ch20 so SPOILERS but)

what kind of sex are maxime and laurent having? it's not the slow, gentle, love making stuff damen knows laurent was into. it's rough, it's degrading, it's not as pleasurable, it's a chore, it leaves marks. does laurent want those marks? we don't know. does maxime ask him if he does? we don't know. you can make it as non con as you want because the text doesn't go into detail.

the petnames. "why does laurent like it when maxime says it but not damen?" I don't think he does. he never gives damen a straight answer on this, but he does say that it makes him feel like a bimbo. it makes him feel slightly degraded. he says it wasn't terrible, but he never says he wanted it or that it was good. it's implied that damen tried it once or twice at the very beginning of their relationship, and I think we can all tell why laurent didn't like it back then with him either (bimbo feelings, laurent using him for money, the power imbalance, etc.)

uncle parallels. okay, this one's a bit tricky. yes, you're right to think that the abuse laurent's uncle subjected him to is nothing like his relationship with maxime for a plethora of reasons, but I think the narrative supports some people's opinions that maxime does resemble uncle in some ways (older, brunette, has a beard). i did not write maxime as a literal uncle stand in, so of course it's not going to be a perfect comparison. i wouldn't even call maxime and laurent's relationship abusive.

he said sex was the foundation of their relationship, which seems odd for an ascetic person like laurent who even in hiuh canon doesn’t seem to have engaged in that kind of relationship before dating damen, when he was in a way worse physical and emotional state, unless i’m wrong.

i tried to mirror canon in hiuh when it comes to laurent's... choices? in canon, damen is the first person he's with after his uncle because he's the only one laurent trusts. i don't have any doubts that canon laurent was terribly lonely and probably wanted to be loved waaaaay before damen came into the picture (post uncle, I mean) but his context and environment were so violent and dangerous that he couldn't let his guard down. similarly, in hiuh, laurent leaves his uncle's house without any money and in a very vulnerable position. he's not exactly carefree and happy and able to be like "oh I wanna date and fool around!! explore my sexuality!!!!" - in fact, this is a pretty big plot point in hiuh: laurent did contact damen out of pure necessity.

and yes, sex is the foundation of maxime/laurent for all the reasons I stated above, but at the same time it's not all about sex. it's not even about sex. it's about control and self-punishment. it's about self-hatred. we also don't know what state laurent was in when he started seeing maxime because we don't have his pov, but we do have nicaise's testimony. again, this is briefly mentioned in ch20, but it wasn't exactly pretty.

however, having said all of this, i'm not blind or dumb enough to think oh hiuh laurent is sooooo canon laurent, not a trace of ooc-ness. i get where the characterization issues are coming from. at the end of the day, I have to say that this post summarizes a tiny bit of what went into creating hiuh laurent. i tried to make him as canon as possible, but I'm not pacat and so my characterization is different. my setting is different. the modern au is different. it is completely fair to read hiuh and think as a reader "i would not have gone in this direction, i don't think laurent would ever be with someone who isn't damen, i don't think it's consistent with his canon self". i accept those comments in the same way i accept those that say they love this laurent bc of XYZ.

this is the one area so far where laurent has been extremely defensive and refuses to take responsibility, even though it really hurt damen

i understand this, but at the same time i don't know how much responsibility laurent can take over that when it's... just dating/fucking someone else after a break up. he should apologize for making damen feel bad on purpose (perhaps taking maxime places), but the rest of it... damen also fucked and thought about dating other people. the comparisons you mention were cruel, but they were made, for example, by characters like aimeric (removed from the narrative entirely later on) and ancel (who tells damen he was wrong, who tells damen he thinks laurent made a mistake letting him go).

i don’t see how damen could get over this massive insecurity when laurent appears to ridicule or dismiss him for bringing it up, like with the condom conversation or the pet name issue.

i understand that, but i also think damen's insecurity wasn't born just from this issue. he is an insecure person throughout the fic. his toxic masculinity is one way this insecurity and lack of self-confidence manifest, for example. his fixation on penetrative sex. his fixation on performance. his fixation on parenting like laurent because his own way is wrong. his fixation on never thinking about the things and people he lacks because he can't take it.

yes, laurent played a huge role in feeding that insecurity, but I'm failing to see where he is ridiculing damen. during the condom conversation, laurent snaps because he feels judged and attacked, not because he's making fun of damen's pain. during the pet name conversation, the same thing happens. and in both instances, damen is judging laurent. he judges laurent really harshly in other scenes, too, like when they find out about claude.

some of these issues are talked about in ch20, but I don't think there is a scene where laurent addresses everything. perhaps he should. i just didn't write it.

#anon #hiuh #ok so this got out of hand lol #hopefully this made sense?#i do think a few scenes in ch20 help us see that laurent is sorry and he says so but i dont know to what extent youll be satisfied with it #also i am working my ass off lmao im editing i promise i'm trying to finish it IM TRYING kjbsdkgbdskjgbkd it's just so long dudes #pray for me #pray for my ass bc im editing six hours a day #im so close to the end i can almost taste it #and YES FFS IT'S HAPPY stop doubting me #plot twist they dont end up together

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