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tempestvista · 3 months ago

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spoiler warnings for TMA

There is a decent possibility that I am going to eat my words if anything changes greatly since I have not fully finished TMA (Iirc I'm in the middle of season 4? I've been on pause for a bit though so I need to find my place again)

But can I just say how frustrating it is that like everyone villainizes Jonathan Sims in the fandom lmao?? Especially without even considering him and his character + character development as a part of his multi-faceted person and instead just dumbing him down to a one dimensional evil guy who they can also ship with others because ui ui sexo sexo

Now there are obvious things/reasons to dislike him. Namely, the stalking of his employees, which, I don't think I need to explain why is problematic and gross.

But the things I see listed as points against Jonathan Sims are often just… Side effects of him being non-consensually turned into a monster by a deeply calculating man who has a plethora of more knowledge from the get-go and far more manipulation over the situation than Jon himself? ''He killed innocent people!!'' Alright, so did multiple of the other characters?? Like a lot of them, actually?? That's. A really common theme??????????? An overarching pattern (in my analysis/eyes anyhow) in TMA is that literally almost no one gets a happy ending and usually the ones who ''do'' are based in the suffering of others + they've been turned

It just actually infuriates me when I see the "he killed innocent people'' argument without anyone acknowledging how it is near impossible to fight your nature as an avatar and again, really, really loosely saying here because I do not fully recall, but it seems like going against that nature can and WILL kill you. And you can call it selfish, but really, who WOULDN'T want to die? A lot of people have both a conscious and primal instinct to, you know, LIVE.

And again, also not acknowledging that multiple others have done the same.

Also, I see people either justify or entirely ignore the fact that at some point he was being utterly demeaned and belittled by everyone around him. If he wasn't being manipulated by Elias, he was being avoided by Martin, Melanie making cruel digs, being hovered over also by any given person, and generally having petty to hateful comments tossed at him by MOST individuals on any day at any hour. I acknowledge my bias and love for him really does jump out in this, but it also does make me mad that no one seems to care for the fact that he is ALSO a victim. He's a victim of manipulation, of being groomed into being an avatar (at least in my eyes), of being harmed by multiple entities and having lasting marks and impacts from each of them, of being falsely accused of murder (and everyone he knew at the time BELIEVING he was guilty), of being kidnapped/held hostage (MORE THAN ONCE), having to witness literal ghosts/bodies/skins of previous people he knew be lifted around and surrounding him talking about how he's a failure, a bad person, a bad archivist, the worst of the worst- which I cannot IMAGINE the nightmares that that situation would breed. Genuinely just sit and think about that for a moment. Also, as far as the Unknowing and any harm derived from that situation, if we're talking specifically about Sims again, he also had to live with the fact afterward that he was the reason Tim got killed. He has to live with the fact that he was so overwhelmed by everything and the manipulation of Nikola + the Stranger that when he came out of it, Tim had to be the one to end it because Jon failed to. He has to live with Tim being gone, and the fault of it weighing down on him. That is something that I do think one can blame him for (if I am recounting this all correctly). I wanted to bring this up in specific because Survivors guilt is very real and that whole ordeal and blaming must have been something beyond harrowing. He had to realize a thing was basically marching around in the corporeal idea of Sasha and that it WASN'T. HER. Of course this whole podcast is centered around being a nightmare, which is why I find it important to acknowledge the impacts of the nightmare on the people who very much are experiencing them!! And on a continued basis!! Living in that consistent traumatizing environment, developing hypervigilance, watching people drop like flies around you, like. holy shit man. Being traumatized, being threatened by what seems like fate itself at times, and also being used as a pawn for a massive scheme which he didn't even know was a thing. He used to have a life prior to all the world-ending, supernatural, lovecraftian horror stuff that became his new normal.

I know a lot of people would bash the ''I'm a victim too!'' card, but I really don't think that is an easy dismissal here because he just legitimately is.

That, and the people who villainize him also get really.. weird? At times? Like I know this is no longer an uncommon opinion - at least I hope not, but I don't really interact with TMA fandom at all besides liking, reblogging and saving fanart + fics- But people really just tend to make him into this gross or just. Absolutely downright awful human being (occasionally fetishizing his very nature even sometimes) and then Martin is the cutesy innocent person who has never done a single thing wrong in his life, Tim is the sexy hot bisexual who would fuck anything from a lamp-pole to eight mothmen, and Sasha is some demure, sweet and lovely little thing who only exists as just another background person in the polychives.

I can't say I've really seen that characterization of Sasha often thankfully… but that's also because some people straight up forget she was a vital character at one point lol (and I confess I'm not deeply attached to her so the art I save of her is usually secondary/included in other fanart)

I know some of this is redundant, and I am certain that if my memory wasn't so in and out as it is (especially as of late, the dissociation has been… bad, topic for another day, anywho-) I would be able to make more points against the things I've seen, but this is just one facet I really felt like addressing, since I think almost no one is innocent in TMA and harping on Jon specifically is … honestly pointless?? And bland/low hanging fruit as far as the conversation goes? Like big whoop, he's a monster, so is a majority of the characters in TMA? Lmfao??

All in all I say this without aggression or targeted vitriol. I hope people understand I am allowed to be angry at words without hating and/or wishing harm upon the people who say them /npa gen

And if someone happens to see this and has something to contribute, or a point to be made against me, I will gladly listen and engage! I like when people show me my errors, it gives me more perspectives. (Not intended arrogantly, genuine).

I do want it to be clear though that just because this is something I would love to discuss if anyone actually DOES - that doesn't mean I'm accepting of petty spats or arguments.

#the magnus archives #rant #of sorts #tangent #sillyposting #maybe?#jonathan sims #magnus archives #jon sims

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gabbynyssa · 1 year ago

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Okay, so while I do loathe the tendency of DC to become completely centered around just the Bats and Kryptonians; I do love when a strong dynamic between two of them is formed and becomes a core part of how fans view the characters. Not just shipping, but that too.

Like... We have the classic chums, Bruce and Clark, constantly steeped in homoromantic tension, regardless of how little DC want to admit it, but also from that closeness we got Nightwing: a hero raised by Batman but more interested in being a part of his "uncle" Superman's legacy.

Then, when Kal-El's estranged cousin and Batman's commissioner friend's daughter meet, Supergirl and Batgirl form a recurring duo that for awhile was just as shippable if not more so than Clark and Bruce. (And tbh it's kinda a shame that we rarely see Kara and Babs hanging out during Oracle storylines)

And after the deaths of Jason Todd and Superman, two unlikely teens stepped in to try to fill those roles before either could pull their rendition of a phoenix rising from the ashes: Tim Drake and Kon-El: the Robin that found Batman and the clone that would be Superman. Both struggling with who they wanted to be and who they were expected to be at birth, but united by that with a team of similar young people that wanted to just be themselves. (And possibly the most shippable duo in the whole lineup)

Later into their lives, both heroes found themselves with sons. One by choice, the other by circumstances out of his control. These sons were Jon Kent and Damian Wayne: the first naturally born half-Kryptonian/half-human eager to get into the heroing whist his parents desperately try to make sure he gets to just be a kid, and an assassin trained from birth that chose his father's kinder mantle over his grandfather's castle built on bones. Both stuck between halves and initially stuck together because of who their parents were. Despite their differences, or possibly because of them, they each found the other to be a kindred spirit, and grew to be inseparable friends with so much potential between them that their respective families basically dread the two of them without supervision. (Tho arguably they were more primed to work well together than Damian would like to admit, as Dick Grayson, then former Nightwing, had been the Batman to his Robin and his surrogate father figure for much more of his early hero days than Bruce had.)

And then, after many a death, rebirth, reboot and retcon, we find two cast-off members of these families... Jason Todd: an anomaly caused by a fracturing multiverse, his past even more a patchwork after that multiverse rebooted and then again when his found family of Outlaws regained their previous timeline friends and memories; and the third Bizarro of post-Flashpoint Earth One: fated to follow in some of the footsteps of Bizarro No. 1(the third Bizarro pre-Flashpoint) but cast aside for not being the same as the second Bizarro of his own timeline, who sacrificed himself to save it. Brought together thru meddling by Lex Luthor along with Artemis, an Amazon who'd also been uprooted from her past's continuity, they became like family; Jason and Artemis helping Bizarro to find who he wanted to be for himself and all finding some semblance of peace in a world that accepted none of them with open arms.

(Yes, I could get into Diana, Donna and Cassie's wonderful dynamics with their respective Bats and Kryptonians, but they're not as integral to the meeting and dynamics of the others, and the WW family isn't as frustratingly all consuming of the DC comic lineups)

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buttercuparry · 1 year ago

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I now know why the idea that courtesy is the answer to every conflict is so prevalent in the fandom. You have a handful of tumblr intellectuals who would rather discuss if Arya should have been feeling guilty about killing the Bolton guard or the degree of it ( he is just a guy standing around, we don't know anything about him, hey maybe he doesn't get paid enough to stop 3 prisoners from leaving!), rather than acknowledge that Arya had gone through hell to survive and she more than any other Stark kid knows the cost of war. Arya's list is called fucked up ( they add the "understandable" adjective immediately after but reiterate that it's fucked up). And the prevalent idea then, in use of all these words is equating Arya to violence. Which is why all those incorrect quote posts of 'Arya's every solution being violence' get so many notes.

Arya's list isn't the measure of her violence. It instead is the proof of her trauma. And she tries again and again to leave the nightmares behind: the countless times she tries to reach Jon, her feeling what good does Joffrey's death do if her mother and brothers are dead, her wanting to stay on with the crew of Titan's daughter.

They would talk about how fucked up her list is hence insinuate the tremendous capacity of violence and draw up theories after theories about Faceless Men but won't ever be conscious enough to recognize that Arya never truly wanted anything to do with the FM ( even after reaching Braavos she tries to stay on the ship).

So imagine knowing all these. To have read all these chapters and to get stuck on the ethics of murdering the Bolton guard. Mind you this is brought up because it has been admitted that previously Arya has had to kill in self defense and for others. There has been a reiteration that there these kills are pardonable since there had been an active threat on her. But the murder of the Bolton guard is a matter of ethics!

And you know what I am not even arguing about that. It is a grey area. But it's the extra scrutiny placed on the female character that gets to me. A clood blooded premeditated murder committed!! As if this murder exists in vacuum. As if this girl who the world around knows to be a commoner would have been allowed to leave Harrenhal by that guard just standing around. As if prisoners and slaves have a say on what is to be their fate. As if each day and every day Arya isn't surrounded by the violence wrought in Harrenhal. As if this violence wasn't necessary for her to make a safe escape.

They would argue it wasn't and here I realize that the issue goes deeper than that. Here is an excerpt of their dialogue:

They maintain that only Gendry and Hot Pie had been in danger here. That Arya was actually safe as she could have just revealed her identity anytime and apparently there were ways of proving it without one recognizing her face ( I doubt that).

Somehow this makes me realize that this sort of thinking is what dismisses Arya's entire arc. This is what had been going wrong in the tv show which reduced all of Arya's trauma to ✨adventure✨because they think all the suffering Arya went through was intentional and could have been stopped anytime! All she had to do was reveal her identity.

I honestly do not know what Arya could have done to prove she was a Stark. When they sent guards to hunt her down and Arya realized that maybe in convincing her two friends to run away with her, she has in turn condemned them- Arya makes a decision to reveal who she is and let herself taken hostage. But here's the thing and no matter how many so called intellectuals throw up shit that her identity could have easily been proven-there would always, always the matter of chance. They could believe or they won't. And what would happen if they won't? Arya would be killed.

Now let's see what would have happened if Roose had ahold of the real Arya? Wouldn't she be in the place of Jeyne Poole. Jeyne has had to suffer under a monster, under a sadist. And those cries that echo around Winterfell now, would have been Arya's. This is what the fandom wants. I mean to say this is what the fandom wants from its female characters. Be the passive recipient of all that is to happen. There is no admiration in taking yourself promptly out of a situation that can be dangerous by actively interfering in the storyline. Act only when an action has been committed against you. There would have been more sympathy for Arya if she bled the way they wanted her to. If her cries echoed through halls. If she wasn't an active participant in her own storyline.

The other thing is the matter of could have. There is always the matter of could have when it comes to Arya. Arya could have tried to be more courteous. Arya could have just let Joffrey cut Mycah's face. And now Arya could have hatched a plan keeping in mind the safety of not only her party but of everyone else ( the Bolton guard) and snuck past. Every decisive control Arya takes is countered with a could have. That Arya chose to simply eliminate the risk in a situation that begged a safe escape isn't taken well. There is always a could have even when the text itself provides us with no definitive answer to this alternative could have.

I never understood how people could judge Dany when she actively brings down an empire of slavery. But now I think I can. There is no passivity. There is unapologetic action against the slave masters. They too perhaps are just some guys standing around to many in this fandom. And every decisive move against them, every violence against them also brings about the compulsion of the could have.

These female characters refuse to be a part of the could have. Of passivity. Their grey actions are to take back control of their storyline. Hence are they vilified. And hence should there be guilt and remorse on their part.

#arya stark #asoiaf #a song of ice and fire

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themarksideofficial · 2 months ago

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Yep, it's that time of the year again!

Get ready to show off this fandom's creativity and skills with the 7th ANNUAL TMS OCTOBER CHALLENGE!

Last year was the first year prizes were offered, and that was super fun! So for 2024, there's EVEN MORE PRIZES with the all new addition of the POINTS SYSTEM!

Each day you submit, you'll receive 5 points! The number of points you have at the end of the challenge will determine what your prize will be!

As with last year, these prompts were created with drawing in mind, but submissions can be anything! Art, writing, and any creative form is accepted.

Most of the prizes are merch, and this is the only way to get it until the merch store opens!

Make sure you read the rules if you want to participate to earn prizes!

⭐ Reblog if you’re interested! ⭐

Typed rules, prompts, and prizes list below!

RULES:

1 entry per day, except on make up days. If you're going for the max amount of points and you don't want to make a post every single day that you make an entry, you can combine submissions into single posts but only if your number of submissions don't exceed the number of days that have passed for that specific prompt. (EXAMPLE: 5 submissions on day 1 of a prompt is not allowed. 3 submissions in 1 post on day 3 and 2 submissions on day 5 in another post will still earn you all of the points.)

1 entry = 5 points.

Feel free to complete these prompts without entering if you just want something to do for fun!

On make up days, the number of entries you are allowed is equivalent to the number of days you skipped, plus the bonus prompt.

In order to receive points for your entry, you MUST tag Saveraedae or an official TMS social in a public post. (If your account is private, we can't see it.)

Entries must include at least 1 canon TMS character in order to receive points. (AU versions of canon characters are accepted)

If you win prizes. you will need to provide a valid address to receive them. (All prizes will ship for free. Prizes being sent outside the US should not incur any additional import taxes or fees, but if they do, you are responsible for them.)

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PRIZES:

25 POINTS

Choose from 4 different TMS sticker packs, plus receive a set of 5 TMS pin buttons!

(You'll get a few cool exclusive bonus October themed TMS stickers as well.)

50 POINTS

Choose from 4 different TMS keychains of Mark, Ben, Jon, and Kenny, PLUS receive a special and exclusive poster print!

(What makes it special is a surprise! This won't ever be offered in the merch store. You're curious, aren't you? :) If you really like TMS, you're gonna love it.)

100 POINTS

Choose from 11 different TMS character plushes of the main and secondary cast, plus some cool fun extras!

(Options for plushes: Mark, Benjamin, Jonathon, Kenny, Ash, Luke, Steven, Leon, Darcy, Boss, and Alex)

125 POINTS (IMPOSSIBLE MODE)

If you somehow manage to make 125 points, you will receive all of the listed prizes PLUS an additional plush that is exclusive only to the challenge! (What makes it special is a surprise! These things won't ever be offered in the merch store. They're really cool though.)

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PROMPTS:

PROMPT 1: MAIN 4 WEEK! (1st-5th)

A whole week (well, technically 5 days,) dedicated to Mark, Ben, Jon, Kenny, and their super normal and totally not complicated friendship throughout the years! Come up with any scenario you want featuring any of these four, whether it be simple, silly, or even angsty! (You can earn up to 25 points for this prompt.)

★★★★

MAKE UP DAY 1 + BONUS PROMPT 1 (6th)

If you missed any days, you can still earn the points for them! Feel free to submit as many entries as you want for any days you didn't submit something.

OPTIONAL BONUS PROMPT: Crossover TMS with any other fandom or media!

★★★★

PROMPT 2: TMS OCTOBER! (7th-12th)

October brings lot of things: Cooler autumn weather, lots (and lots) of orange, and you can't forget Mark's favorite holiday: Halloween! Come up with anything October themed featuring any TMS character, and feel free to get creative with what you make! (You can earn up to 30 points for this prompt.)

★★★★

MAKE UP DAY 2 + BONUS PROMPT 2 (13th)

If you missed any days, you can still earn the points for them! Feel free to submit as many entries as you want for any days you didn't submit something.

OPTIONAL BONUS PROMPT: Make something with your favorite duo or group!

★★★★

PROMPT 3: FLASHBACK WEEK! (14th-19th)

This week is dedicated to the past, and that means EVERYTHING! The good, the bad, memories both forever and forgotten, and all of what formed everyone into who they are now! Have fun with it! (You can earn up to 30 points for this prompt.)

★★★★

MAKE UP DAY 3 + BONUS PROMPT 3 (20th)

If you missed any days, you can still earn the points for them! Feel free to submit as many entries as you want for any days you didn't submit something.

OPTIONAL BONUS PROMPT: Try drawing something in the TMS art style!

★★★★

PROMPT 4: ANTI-MARK WEEK! (21st-26th)

Fuck Mark, am I right? Just kidding. (Or am I?) Sure, it's called "The MARK Side," but there's so many other characters that are a part of the series, whether their role is major or not! Creativity is encouraged, but remember, this week is dedicated to the others in his life, not him! (You can earn up to 30 points for this prompt.)

★★★★

MAKE UP DAY 4 + BONUS PROMPT 4 (27th)

If you missed any days, you can still earn the points for them! Feel free to submit as many entries as you want for any days you didn't submit something.

OPTIONAL BONUS PROMPT: 404: Ending Not Found. We all know of the Good and Bad Endings, but what if things were different? Create your own AU ending!

★★★★

PROMPT 5: AU WEEK! (28th-31st)

Final prompt! Throughout the years, there's been many TMS AUs people have made to explore different scenarios that wouldn't happen in canon. Choose an AU, create your own new one, or just think of something that couldn't be canon and make something based off of that! (You can earn up to 20 points for this prompt.)

#the mark side #tms #tms october challenge #tms october challenge 2024 #art challenge #october

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g0lightly · 9 days ago

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daenerys’ relationship to jorah mirrors sansa’s relationship to sandor (ft. jon and brienne as their younger foils)

disclaimer: sandor has his issues but i still think he is still a FAR better person than jorah. characters mirroring each other does not mean they are the same - that would be boring! i have also written about sandor’s connection to dany’s relationship with barristan, which connects back to brienne and sansa as well. to be clear, i do actually like sandor as a character and find his relationship to sansa to be rich with meaning. some of his interactions with her are predatory, however, and i have no interest in sugarcoating that. everyone should ship what they like, however this is a post that will address some ship-based ideas about sandor and sansa’s relationship i’ve come across that i find incomplete in the greater context of the story.

while i don't put it past grrm to romanticize objectively predatory dynamics such as drogo and dany, i would like to point out that once dany gains her own strength after hatching her dragons, she is able to push back on jorah (whose treatment of her is not that different from the hound's treatment of sansa) when he forcibly kisses her. her newfound power in the world means she is able to stand up to him in a way that she was never able to stand up to drogo. just because grrm romanticizes that dynamic between drogo and dany - particularly dany's willingness to do what she needs to do to survive her marriage - does not necessarily mean this type of behavior from grown men toward teen girls is ultimately portrayed as a good thing in the text.

i think that's also true of sandor's creepier interactions with sansa. dany notes that a true knight would never kiss her without her permission as jorah did and i couldn't agree with her more. sandor may not have followed through on sexually assaulting sansa as jorah did with dany, but a true knight also would not have traumatized a 12-year-old girl to the extent that she had to make up a kiss to process being threatened with sexual assault at knifepoint by an authority figure she wanted to trust. i don’t think it’s a coincidence that sansa is having a (most likely) false memory of kissing the hound in the same book where dany deals with jorah actually kissing her.

Unbidden, her thoughts went back to the night on Balerion when the exile knight had kissed her. He should never have done that. He is thrice my age, and of too low a birth for me, and I never gave him leave. No true knight would ever kiss a queen without her leave. She had taken care never to be alone with Ser Jorah after that, keeping her handmaids with her aboard ship, and sometimes her bloodriders. He wants to kiss me again, I see it in his eyes. What Dany wanted she could not begin to say, but Jorah's kiss had woken something in her, something that had been sleeping since Khal Drogo died. Lying abed in her narrow bunk, she found herself wondering how it would be to have a man squeezed in beside her in place of her handmaid, and the thought was more exciting than it should have been. Sometimes she would close her eyes and dream of him, but it was never Jorah Mormont she dreamed of; her lover was always younger and more comely, though his face remained a shifting shadow. - Daenerys II, A Storm of Swords

as we see with drogo and dany or even this instance with jorah, it is not uncharacteristic of grrm to play with the romantic aspects of a situation that is ultimately quite disturbing and upsetting. for this reason, i think that some shippers miss the broader context in which some of the more "romantic" moments between sandor and sansa exist. yes, they get moments involving classic romance tropes like a big strong man carrying a helpless damsel in distress. but imo readers miss the full picture if they only focus on that one element of their interactions. maybe these things could be romantic between two people closer in age, but that's not what's happening. much like sansa's overall experience in king's landing, it's a juxtaposition of what is supposed to be romantic with what is in fact horrifying.

both daenerys and sansa have complicated feelings as a result of these boundary-breaking encounters with men who are supposed to protect them. daenerys, being a few crucial years older with more life experience and power than sansa, is better-equipped to process what happened than she was at the time of her marriage to drogo. i also think it’s worth noting that sansa is 13 by the time of the below quote from ASOS, the same age daenerys was when she married drogo. like 13-year-old dany, i think that sansa has to romanticize what happened with sandor in order to process it and still survive a situation where she must rely on other predatory men — tyrion, dontos, littlefinger — for safety.

That night Sansa scarcely slept at all, but tossed and turned just as she had aboard the Merling King. She dreamt of Joffrey dying, but as he clawed at his throat and the blood ran down across his fingers she saw with horror that it was her brother Robb. And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion's eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. "I'll have a song from you," he rasped, and Sansa woke and found the old blind dog beside her once again. "I wish that you were Lady," she said. - A Storm of Swords, Sansa VI

nothing about sansa’s dream sounds pleasant. in fact, it’s a nightmare amid a sleepless night. i didn’t highlight the section about the “younger and more comely” lover whose face remains “a shifting shadow” because i think that tyrion turning into sandor is a parallel to that — if anything, i think the version of sandor that sansa sees in her nightmare is a foil to dany’s shadow dream lover. also, sandor is older than tyrion so that comparison doesn't work imo. i think it goes to show that dany is at least capable of imagining something better. sansa, having just escaped one place where she was abused and treated as a pawn for another place where she will be abused and treated as a pawn, is not.

now, it’s commonly believed among snowstorm shippers that jon snow is the comely stranger of dany’s dreams. i think it’s especially interesting to consider in the context of jorah mormont being the person who sets this off. jorah is a northerner like jon, who wields the valyrian steel sword that was meant for jorah. just because there is something about jorah’s unwanted advances that some part of dany may be drawn to does not mean that she wants to be with him romantically. it sparks something in her, but it also leads her to recognize that she wants someone who can be more of an equal to her.

i think the same is true about sansa’s thoughts about sandor kissing her. the old blind dog who sleeps next to sansa seems to be connected to the hound; she calls him a “sad old hound,” earlier in the chapter right after wondering if sandor clegane would care to learn that joffrey was killed. like dany noting that jorah is thrice her age, 11-year-old sansa in AGOT called the 22-year-old beric dondarrion “awfully old,” so at 29 or 30 sandor is old in sansa’s eyes and nearly thrice her age when she first meets him.

now this is a bit speculative. i believe that sansa wishing for lady instead of the sad old hound at her side is her equivalent of dany’s shifting shadow lover (if she has an equivalent of this at all). i’ve often said that i believe brienne/sansa would be another snowstorm within the fandom if it wasn’t for heteronormativity because the two are so closely linked in the text despite never meeting. brienne is certainly younger than the hound and more comely in terms of her inner beauty. they’re also much closer in age than some fans realize due to gwendolyn christie’s casting in GOT; brienne is two younger than theon and several years younger than the “awfully old” beric dondarrion. i think sansa is too young to ship with anyone at her canon age, however i firmly believe that brienne rescuing sansa after the originally-planned five year gap after ASOS could have been romantic.

whether or not brienne and sansa’s future relationship is ever romantic in the canon timeline, i believe that brienne is sansa’s true knight and soulmate even if that is only ever true in a platonic sense. sansa wishing for lady instead of the old, sad, male hound reminds me of the fact that the hound’s lady foil is brienne. like sandor, brienne holds the ideals of true knighthood closely but does not resemble the knights of songs and legends. in AFFC and her brief appearance with ADWD, brienne’s physical resemblance to sandor becomes even more striking – half her face is now badly scarred and jaime notes that she looks ten years older, which means she looks to be around the same age as sandor. even before this, she is likened to the Hound (and hounds/dogs in general) by Jaime twice in his first POV chapter.

"What do you care what a monster calls you?" "My name is Brienne," she repeated, dogged as a hound. - Jaime I, A Storm of Swords

"You are under my protection," she said, her voice so thick with anger that it was almost a growl. He had to laugh at such fierceness. She's the Hound with teats, he thought. Or would be, if she had any teats to speak of. - Jaime I, A Storm of Swords

brienne spends her chapters in AFFC haunted by the hound (actually rorge in his helm) and the threat of sexual assault as she searches for sansa. in what may be her most iconic moment in the series, brienne slays rorge in a seven-against-one fight while defending orphans against her own would-be rapist who bears the hound’s helm. after killing “the hound,” biter leaves brienne disfigured when he bites off part of her cheek. when brienne wakes in the hollow hill, we learn that lem lemoncloak — who is also quite tall and scarred — took the hound’s helm and identity from rorge after brienne killed him. like sandor and brienne, it’s possible that lem was once a knight of the kingsguard; perhaps brienne will be the next tall, scarred ex-kingsguard to bear the hound’s helm and identity. instead of being someone who threatens young girls with sexual assault, however, brienne is someone who protects them against it.

brienne also bears some (non-physical) resemblance to jonquil darke, who came into the service of queen alysanne targaryen because she needed someone who could be at her side in women-only spaces after she was nearly assassinated the (aptly-named) jonquil’s pool. more than a century later, brienne and jaime find jonquil’s pool full of corpses amid war as they journey to king’s landing to retrieve sansa in ASOS. of course, the pool is so named because it is where florian the fool first saw jonquil. meanwhile, sansa is in king’s landing calling dontos her florian after praying for a true knight and friend in the godswood back in ACOK.

though it may seem as though dontos or sandor may be the answer to sansa’s prayer because they each appear later in that chapter, i believe that catelyn sending brienne to retrieve sansa is indeed the answer to her prayer. like lady the direwolf — in her place, almost, seeing as catelyn was so insistent about the direwolves protecting her children — this would mean that brienne was sent to protect sansa by the old gods. perhaps sansa wishing that the old male hound at her side was lady also reflects the fact that she would do better with a jonquil at her side than a florian.

#sansa stark #brienne of tarth #daenerys targaryen #valyrianscrolls #anti jorah mormont #sandor clegane critical #asoiaf speculation #asoiaf theories #briensa #briennsa #asoiaf meta #grrm #knighthood

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jackoshadows · 11 months ago

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“It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife.” - Pride and Prejudice "Only half a hundred times," Dany teased. "You gave up too easily, my lord. For I must marry, all agree." "A khaleesi must have a khal," said Irri, as she filled the queen's cup once again. "This is known." - Daenerys, ADWD.

I have been listening to Austen on my way to work everyday. Finished P&P and have taken up Mansfield Park. It's, IMO, singularly boring and not as entertaining as the rest of Austen's work. It's incredibly slow, there's pages and pages of events that does not push the plot forward - like the play the Bertrams and Crawfords put on - and Fanny is the least interesting of Austen's female leads.

There have been discussions on how, in terms of Austen heroines, Arya Stark comes closest to Elizabeth Bennet with regards to her questioning of the patriarchal ideals of femininity, her wit and vivacity, as detailed here and here.

However, I did notice some similarities between the characters/dynamics of Mansfield Park, the Starks of ASoIaF and one my asoiaf ships Jonrya!

First, there is 10 year old Fanny feeling the outcast and lonely at Mansfield Park until Edmund steps in and befriends her.

Afraid of everybody, ashamed of herself, and longing for the home she had left, she knew not how to look up, and could scarcely speak to be heard, or without crying. Her feelings were very acute, and too little understood to be properly attended to. Nobody meant to be unkind, but nobody put themselves out of their way to secure her comfort. - Fanny, MP

Reminds me of Arya in King's Landing feeling lonely and missing her home, brothers and especially Jon Snow.

That was when Arya missed her brothers most. She wanted to tease Bran and play with baby Rickon and have Robb smile at her. She wanted Jon to muss up her hair and call her “little sister” and finish her sentences with her. But all of them were gone. She had no one left but Sansa, and Sansa wouldn’t even talk to her unless Father made her. - Arya, AgoT

She went back to the window, Needle in hand, and looked down into the courtyard below. If only she could climb like Bran, she thought; she would go out the window and down the tower, run away from this horrible place, away from Sansa and Septa Mordane and Prince Joffrey, from all of them. Steal some food from the kitchens, take Needle and her good boots and a warm cloak. She could find Nymeria in the wild woods below the Trident, and together they’d return to Winterfell, or run to Jon on the Wall. She found herself wishing that Jon was here with her now. Then maybe she wouldn’t feel so alone. - Arya, AGoT

We have Fanny sad and feeling like no one really understands or cares for her and then being comforted by Edmund.

A week had passed in this way, and no suspicion of it conveyed by her quiet passive manner, when she was found one morning by her cousin Edmund, the youngest of the sons, sitting crying on the attic stairs. “My dear little cousin,” said he, with all the gentleness of an excellent nature, “what can be the matter?” And sitting down by her, he was at great pains to overcome her shame in being so surprised, and persuade her to speak openly.

This mirrors Arya's relationship with Jon, where we know he is whom she goes to for solace and companionship - not her father, mother or other siblings. It's Jon Snow. Like getting bullied over her appearance leading to her thinking she was a bastard and getting comforted by Jon Snow.

"A shade more fun than needlework," Arya gave back at him. Jon grinned, reached over, and messed up her hair. Arya flushed. They had always been close. Jon had their father's face, as she did. They were the only ones. Robb and Sansa and Bran and even little Rickon all took after the Tullys, with easy smiles and fire in their hair. When Arya had been little, she had been afraid that meant that she was a bastard too. It had been Jon she had gone to in her fear, and Jon who had reassured her. - Arya, AGoT

Edmund and Fanny becoming very close and Edmund helping Fanny get pen and paper to write home and selling his own horse to get a new horse for Fanny so that she can go riding - which she loves to do!

For a long while no answer could be obtained beyond a “no, no—not at all—no, thank you”; but he still persevered; and no sooner had he begun to revert to her own home, than her increased sobs explained to him where the grievance lay. He tried to console her. “If that be all your difficulty, I will furnish you with paper and every other material, and you may write your letter whenever you choose. Would it make you happy to write to William?” - MP

Though Edmund was much more displeased with his aunt than with his mother, as evincing least regard for her niece, he could not help paying more attention to what she said; and at length determined on a method of proceeding which would obviate the risk of his father’s thinking he had done too much, and at the same time procure for Fanny the immediate means of exercise, which he could not bear she should be without. He had three horses of his own, but not one that would carry a woman. Two of them were hunters; the third, a useful road-horse: this third he resolved to exchange for one that his cousin might ride; he knew where such a one was to be met with; and having once made up his mind, the whole business was soon completed. The new mare proved a treasure; with a very little trouble she became exactly calculated for the purpose, and Fanny was then put in almost full possession of her. - MP

Jon secretly gets a sword, light and thin, made especially to fit Arya's hands and gifts it to her because she wants to learn how to use a sword.

“I have something for you to take with you, and it has to be packed very carefully.” Her face lit up. “A present?” “You could call it that. Close the door.” Wary but excited, Arya checked the hall. "Nymeria, here. Guard." She left the wolf out there to warn of intruders and closed the door. By then Jon had pulled off the rags he'd wrapped it in. He held it out to her. Arya's eyes went wide. Dark eyes, like his. "A sword," she said in a small, hushed breath. "I can be fast," Arya said. "You'll have to work at it every day." He put the sword in her hands, showed her how to hold it, and stepped back. "How does it feel? Do you like the balance?" "I think so," Arya said. Arya ran to him for a last hug. "Put down the sword first," Jon warned her, laughing. She set it aside almost shyly and showered him with kisses. - Jon, AGoT

Then there are the other supporting characters.

There's Tom Bertram who's like Robb, the eldest son and heir who treats Fanny like a little sister.

Edmund was uniformly kind himself; and she had nothing worse to endure on the part of Tom than that sort of merriment which a young man of seventeen will always think fair with a child of ten. He was just entering into life, full of spirits, and with all the liberal dispositions of an eldest son, who feels born only for expense and enjoyment. His kindness to his little cousin was consistent with his situation and rights: he made her some very pretty presents, and laughed at her. - MP

There's a Mrs. Norris who is very similarly to Septa Mordane in her treatment of Fanny Vs the Bertram daughters, always putting down Fanny to uplift the other girls - similar to how the Septa drags Arya down to uplift Sansa. This has a detrimental effect on the Bertram girls just like it does for Sansa - encouraging them to be mean to Fanny in the same way Sansa/Jeyne mock Arya.

The Bertram sisters mock Fanny for not being good at music or drawing and is told by their aunt Norris that this indeed makes Fanny stupid.

“Yes, I know there is, till I am seventeen. But I must tell you another thing of Fanny, so odd and so stupid. Do you know, she says she does not want to learn either music or drawing.” “To be sure, my dear, that is very stupid indeed, and shows a great want of genius and emulation. But, all things considered, I do not know whether it is not as well that it should be so, for, though you know (owing to me) your papa and mama are so good as to bring her up with you, it is not at all necessary that she should be as accomplished as you are;—on the contrary, it is much more desirable that there should be a difference.”

And as Austen succinctly and rightly puts it, this sort of encouragement and mentorship from their aunt Norris leads to a lack of humility and generosity in the sisters.

Such were the counsels by which Mrs. Norris assisted to form her nieces’ minds; and it is not very wonderful that, with all their promising talents and early information, they should be entirely deficient in the less common acquirements of self-knowledge, generosity and humility. - MP

We see this in AGoT Sansa - the lack of self-awareness, of humility and generosity in the way she treats Arya, Jon, the small folk, Mycah and even Jeyne Poole. Septa Mordane's thoughts and opinions have had a negative effect on ALL her pupils. It's encouraged Arya's low self-esteem and Sansa's vanity and classism.

And while Septa Mordane, Sansa and Catelyn always put Sansa on a higher pedestal than Arya in terms of perfection, intelligence and beauty, it's Jon Snow who considers Arya to be clever and pretty.

"What could you want to see?" Sansa said, annoyed. She had been thrilled by the invitation, and her stupid sister was going to ruin everything, just as she'd feared. "It's all just fields and farms and holdfasts." "Hodor!" Sansa yelled. "You ought to marry Hodor, you're just like him, stupid and hairy and ugly!" She wrenched away from her sister's hand, stormed into her bedchamber, and barred the door behind her. - Sansa, AGoT

But what if Arya was not there to be saved? What if Lady Melisandre's flames had told it true? Could his sister truly have escaped such captors? How would she do that? Arya was always quick and clever, but in the end she's just a little girl, and Roose Bolton is not the sort who would be careless with a prize of such great worth. - Jon, ADwD

"Good." She had never cared if she was pretty, even when she was stupid Arya Stark. Only her father had ever called her that. Him, and Jon Snow, sometimes. Her mother used to say she could be pretty if she would just wash and brush her hair and take more care with her dress, the way her sister did. To her sister and sister's friends and all the rest, she had just been Arya Horseface. - Arya, ADwD

And despite aunt Norris and the Bertram girls finding Fanny to be deficient and stupid, Edmund thinks of her as clever and capable.

“To be sure, my dear, that is very stupid indeed, and shows a great want of genius and emulation. - Aunt Norris, MP

Kept back as she was by everybody else, his single support could not bring her forward; but his attentions were otherwise of the highest importance in assisting the improvement of her mind, and extending its pleasures. He knew her to be clever, to have a quick apprehension as well as good sense, and a fondness for reading, which, properly directed, must be an education in itself. - Edmund, MP

Fanny has a lot of love for Edmund, a mixture of gratitude and affection.

In return for such services she loved him better than anybody in the world except William: her heart was divided between the two. She regarded her cousin as an example of everything good and great, as possessing worth which no one but herself could ever appreciate, and as entitled to such gratitude from her as no feelings could be strong enough to pay. Her sentiments towards him were compounded of all that was respectful, grateful, confiding, and tender. - MP

Edmund and Fanny consider themselves brother and sister, love each other that way and there is a strong emotion there between them.

"By eight in the morning Edmund was in the house. The girls heard his entrance from above, and Fanny went down. The idea of immediately seeing him, with the knowledge of what he must be suffering, brought back all her own first feelings. He so near her, and in misery. She was ready to sink as she entered the parlour. He was alone, and met her instantly; and she found herself pressed to his heart with only these words, just articulate, 'My Fanny, my only sister; my only comfort now!' She could say nothing; nor for some minutes could he say more." - MP

“What do you know of my heart, priestess? What do you know of my sister? Bring her home, Mance., and now I am about to save four thousand of your free folk. You owe me this one little girl. - Jon, ADwD

Despite growing up together, Edmund and Fanny do part as Edmund goes to college and Fanny stays at home. They write to each other and keep in touch, which Jon and Arya cannot do. And while going through their harrowing journeys (Arya) and climbing the ladder to Lord Commander (Jon) they miss each other dearly and want to see each other again.

There are of course differences. I find Jon's love and admiration/respect for Arya to be greater than Edmund's for Fanny. Jon thinks Arya is perfect as is while Edmund sees himself as helping Fanny grow as a person. All the girls Jon admires or falls in love with mirror Arya in terms of personality, looks and physicality (Ygritte, Alys, Val). Jon straight up compares Ygritte and Alys to Arya. In contrast Edmund falls for Mary Crawford who is the opposite of Fanny and where Fanny and Mary are compared with each other in the book. Jon is searching for an Arya in every girl he meets, right from ACoK, while Edmund only acknowledges that Fanny is the person for him at the very end. And then there's the difference in Arya and Fanny, where Arya has more in common with an Elizabeth Bennet than with Fanny herself. And Jon is no Edmund.

So yeah. I remember reading somewhere that GRRM has read Jane Austen. So these similarities are fun even if they were not intended or are wholly unrelated.

#Arya Stark #Jon Snow #Jonrya #Austen

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ultfreakme · 9 months ago

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I broke my silence. Nah, I need someone to talk to me about JonJay, since they are still underrated by the fandom. Like, they started being hated out of nowhere. That nonsense about Damian hating Jay, about what if Jon showed Jay Damian, he would immediately reject it. Demi is literally a fan of Jay and his blog, he literally contributed to Jay and Jon getting together at the 2022 Pride, Jay calls Damian by name and basically sees him without a mask in his real guise, which suggests that he trusts him just enough to show his real personality. He praises him, well, to many of his friends and even relatives (Grayson). This is complete nonsense that the fandom made up is killing me. People also say that Jay is not registered. What? Like, yes, I would also like to know more about him, but this does not mean that he does not have a personality. The entire plot of the comic revolves around him and his story, how in this case can he not have his own character and personality?( like, we literally see that he is a very brave and smart young man who knows how to make difficult decisions. He is also quite daring, he won’t go into his pocket for words, he can express everything he thinks. Jay is very smart and cunning, he knows how to achieve his own and will stand by his interests to the last.) It really scares me how people either don’t want to understand his character. I also saw someone talking about how Jon might cheat on Jay and Nya because the author of her comic released a post about the SuperDreamer (that's what the ship is called). What? In terms of, this bro refused to kiss his boyfriend on the another universe simply because it's not his Jay and people seriously believe that Jon will cheat with another person when he's literally loyal to only one and we're literally shown that, well, he's incapable of cheating on Jay because so much loves him. This is so stupid. Yes, after all, in one of the comics Jon calls a day with Jay “Mental Health Day.” I don’t understand what’s wrong with people. And it seems to me that no matter what happens, Jay will always remain Jon’s main and important love interest. My beloved boys deserve more attention and love from the fandom. I hope that someday they will grow to realize that they are perfect for each other and only at this moment will I find peace

Anon, Anon you are so correct and I love you and I have been sitting with this frustration since 2021 and I am tired.

I know exactly why people don't give Jay a chance:

Xenophobia

Racism

Biases against actual queer people

It gets in the way of the fanon ship; Damian x Jon

A good 99% of the hate I see comes from Damian and Jon shippers who were, for some reason under the impression that Jon being bisexual means he will date Damian....who is not only 3 years younger than him but also just barely out of middle school while Jon is in college.

Most people are still also attached to Super Sons comics, and have yet to come to terms with the fact that Jon is aged up, he is not getting aged down, and Super Sons as it once was is not coming back. So they don't bother reading SOKE or AOSJK or any Jon appearance that occurs where it's JUST Jon (because if you've noticed, the jon kent tag is all damian because they see Jon as Damian's accessory and love interest and not an independent character).

Super Sons mischaracterized both Damian and Jon egregiously while being racist and sexist towards Talia (one very easy example; Damian hates going to school because he's far surpassed that academic level & really only needs school for socialization. Why would Damian who was older than Jon before, willingly go to a grade 3 times below his own where Jon lives, where he needs to get to by helicopter??). Reading that alone means people don't understand Jon, Damian, or Talia(or anyone really).

So when they learn that Damian actually LIKES Jay, that he liked Jay first and enough to introduce him to Dick and potentially a bunch of other batfam characters, they just can't stand it. How dare Damian get in the way of fans shipping him with his best friend(who is 17/18)??? Wdym Damian is happily dating a girl named Nika aka Flatline! Now let's be sexist to the 14 year old girl and call her evil manipulative bitch!!!

Why on Earth would Jon like Jay??? He's not Damian!

And that's another thing; Jay is not Damian and that is all these haters need to destroy Jay and dismiss him. This isn't about character arcs, or canon, or storytelling. It's about being mad that fanon isn't real.

I used to try to get them to at least give SOKE a chance. I wanted to be polite and have a proper discussion but things got overtly racist. I've had people tell me that Jay is seducing Jon, he is evil, he is a criminal who has no morals, he isn't "Asian enough". Me and a bunch of twitter mutuals experienced actual racism, towards ourselves, when talking to these people. I had to delete my account because it was affecting my mental health and I couldn't take it. We also experienced lots of biphobic and homophobic takes (especially about the pink hair which was very fun for a bisexual Asian with pink hair at the time). About how Jay is some "kpop knock off" or "creep" because he and Jon shared a fully consensual kiss. Like yes Karen explain to me how the immigrant Asian kid who just wants to save his country from a colonizer is evil because he kissed a white boy. Do tell me about how he's "mind controlling" Jon to love him. We didn't even have those words thrown around when Saturn Girl legit mind-controlled Jon. But of course! It's because she's white and no one actually read that Legion run. It can pass for heterosexual so who cares!

And the cheating thing grinds my gears it actually makes me want to go scream.

SURE! Let's have the bisexual character cheat! You know let's just forget about how bi people are already stereotyped as sluts and cheaters. Or that Jon's Superman and he straight up said "I'm not going to cheat on Jay."

I think Nicole Maines isn't going to touch JayJon, her run with Dreamer ends around the same time as or before Pride Month and we are getting a pride month jayjon story(unconfirmed yet officially but a cover artist is hinting that's the case). If she does though, if this story is signed-off and it happens through cheating I'm just gonna have to stop reading DC.

I think cheating plots are idiotic, especially with Superfam. Their whole thing is "truth justice better tomorrow." They strive to do good and be kind and honest. Wtf am I taking away if you so severely hurt a person you claim to love? I think they are a lazy and a cheap way to generate bad drama.

If you want drama and for SuperDreamer to happen, at least make JayJon have a proper break up. Making Jon cheat would assassinate his character and Dreamer's because NIA KNOWS JAY. In the story Nia's appearing, she's being sent in to attack Jay's country. It's not even a character flaw atp it's just you two are being hypocritical and choosing to hurt a friend who's done nothing but be kind(lest we forget, Jay was cleaning up Jon's reputation and lost his secret identity FOR JON. He's the one who stayed calm while Jon was about to fight when Nia first showed up).

If Nia is chill with Superman cheating with her on Jay and is simultaneously attacking his country(though it is under Waller's pressure), I will simply leave. What's the point? It's not like POC characters in Superfam get enough respect anyways, especially the Asian ones (I see you Kong Kenan, I SEE YOU). The Steels are fortunately getting more time but that happened after decades and decades (and I've still got no news on Nat and Traci 13 DC GET IT TOGETHER, Nat still doesn't get enough focus imo). I sound really mean towards Dreamer rn but I actually really enjoy the Jon and Nia friendship. I just fucking hate cheaters though, those kind of plots are always exhausting and ill-thought out and the characters become garbage. Because like, you're a superhero, a symbol of goodness and striving to do better. Cheating is actively taking a decision to hurt a person in a deeply personal way. Why would I believe a single thing you say about "truth" when you can't even give that to someone close to you?

I think we should just let the haters stew on their nonsense and find people who create a positive fandom space. My block list for blogs and tags is a mile long. If they can't see how well-written and balanced Jon and Jay are for each other, that's a loss for them and they may....continue to seethe or whatever it is they do.

If you aren't on the supertruth discord server yet or know of it, I'd highly recommend joining!! It's very fun

This was a mess of a response and I let my emotions get too far away from me I am so sorry. I really understand you Anon <3<3 Hugs and comfort from me!!

#riki asks #jon kent #jay nakamura #jonjay #jayjon #superman #superboy #superman son of kal el #soke #jonathan kent #jon el #the truth #gossamer #superfam #adventures of superman jon kent #aosjk #dc comics #dc pride

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pixiecactus · 18 days ago

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About G/A and the separate futures phase. Whoever published it was a very dedicated shipper who got devastated by his response. I don't think anyone would lie about that because this fan was genuinely very upset over this. Despite being my favorite ship, I always had the impression that they would have at most some puppy love, but that it wouldn't be endgame. Then, everything connected for me. A friend of mine pointed out that many female characters of asoiaf (Sansa, Cat, Brienne, Dany, Asha), especially those who are outside the norm. They generally experience passions and/or have multiple romantic interests. And they are allowed to move on from those early love interests. And without the time skip. I end up finding it a bit unfeasible to expect that only Arya never goes through these experiences and that she should be only be with him and end. As if she couldn't live other paths? I know it's not a popular opinion, but I think it's a natural aspect to see other possibilities in life. For me, if she were really going to end up with him (something I don't believe anymore). It would be more interesting if she could experience other passions. I mean in the most innocent sense, like a first kiss and things like that. George comments that he has always known the main characters' endings since 1991. And I don't think that includes G/A as endgame and like the only option in her life... I still like them a lot. However, I have a very different opinion from fandom

i'm going to fracture your ask into parts so it will help me focus on which part i'm actually answering, because my mind tends to hyperfocus on the smallest details, and i go ranting about them, and then i forget what i wanted to write in the first place. so here we go:

so i decided to make my response to this part a post of it's own, and here's the link to it. (x)

Despite being my favorite ship, I always had the impression that they would have at most some puppy love, but that it wouldn't be endgame.

i've come to agree with this notion as an adult, but from what i can remember during my brief time in the asoiaf fandom years ago, back in that time it was treated almost as common knowledge that gendry was arya's very own "ygritte" and how ygritte and gendry served the same purpose in the narrative for jon and arya, a "first love" figure. it seems that the show completely erased that type of idea from being discussed.

Then, everything connected for me. A friend of mine pointed out that many female characters of asoiaf (Sansa, Cat, Brienne, Dany, Asha), especially those who are outside the norm. They generally experience passions and/or have multiple romantic interests. And they are allowed to move on from those early love interests.

i want to say that i agree with this, but at the time i don't. let me explain, sorry for oversharing, but i have to say first that i'm one of the most aromantic fucks to ever exist, so i always have a hard time talking about these concepts because i know very well that they don't hold any significance for me, but my own experience is not the norm, and i have a hard time understanding how romantic interest or romantic love works in the slightest (skill issue on my part, i know). now with that out of the way, i want to tackle each character and their romantic interests as i see them.

let's start with sansa. this is all from my memory, though, as i haven't touched a sansa's chapter in its entirety in years (yeah, i know, but they're headache-inducing for me) sansa was enamoured with the concept of what a prince should be, and i think that her naivety completely blinded her when it comes down to joffrey. since she loved the aforementioned ideas of a handsome prince, i think she decided that if joffrey had the title of prince, those concepts must apply to him, and i guess that it helped his case that joffrey was pretty handsome. so sansa in her naivety, got a crush on an idea of joffrey who was only on her mind while she was actively overlooking any flaw or horrible behavior that joffrey presented. i guess this is why i have a problem with those posts that claim that sansa loves people so deeply. my response is that she is a child that doesn't know a thing about romantic love (and i know that's a bit rich coming from me)

i remember a little bit about sansa having a thing for loras tyrell, but what comes to my brain is sansa dreaming about licking the sweat of his chest, but i'm pretty sure that's an exaggeration, but 16 year old me remembers reading something sansa and loras's chest... okay i did find the part in the books.

Wed to Ser Loras, oh . . . Sansa's breath caught in her throat. She remembered Ser Loras in his sparkling sapphire armor, tossing her a rose. Ser Loras in white silk, so pure, innocent, beautiful. The dimples at the corner of his mouth when he smiled. The sweetness of his laugh, the warmth of his hand. She could only imagine what it would be like to pull up his tunic and caress the smooth skin underneath, to stand on her toes and kiss him, to run her fingers through those thick brown curls and drown in his deep brown eyes. A flush crept up her neck.

i classify this as purely physical attraction, but that's what i want to get to. from my perspective, sansa feels strong physical attraction to people, and her mind does the rest, filling in the blanks, but we never see her making an effort to know who the person behind the appearance she was attracted to actually is.

let me put a disclaimer here: this isn't me criticizing the character, i'm an aroace man that only feels aesthetic attraction, so i understand sansa in this aspect all too well. personally speaking, when i find someone beautiful, the only thing i want is to stare at them as one would to a work of art (and this has always happened to me with celebrities)

so other than the hound, my opinion is that sansa's romantic interests are purely based on physical attraction. and this ties with the notion that sansa believes that good appearance equals good character, when it isn't always the case.

now let's get to catelyn stark née tully. i guess that the three "romantic interests" that we could talk about here are littlefinger, but very loosely, because catelyn loved petyr as a brother, but he was in fact the one who was in love with her. and sure, we can talk about that time where cat, lysa and petyr played at kissing when she was no older than sansa and i think that littlefinger was younger than arya (?) but this example for me is just child curiosity manifesting itself (good thing that mononucleosis isn't a thing in this universe)

catelyn even as a young girl, had the knowledge that littlefinger was infatuated with her and that she didn't reciprocate her feelings, and from what i remember, she was betrothed to brandon stark at a really young age, and i think that catelyn was happy about this decision that her father made because brandon stark was going to be the lord of winterfell and the warden of the north, both very important titles.

so i'm currently using a search of ice and fire to find every time that brandon was mentioned in catelyn's pov, because i don't remember reading her ever waxing poetics about him and his handsomeness, other than that part in which catelyn's declared that she was disappointed the first time she saw ned, and how he was shorter and plainer than his big brother.

and then we have ned stark, the man that catelyn ended up marrying and learned to love. but even when this couple is one of the healthier relationships we ever had in the series as a whole, it wasn't without its issues. we can identify two shadows always lurking in the background following their marriage: the existence of jon snow and ned's refusal to answer catelyn's question of who was the boy's mother, and from ned's part, the fact that he was never meant to actually have the life he has now; it was supposed to be brandon, not him. from the way i see it, that could create a big "what if" for ned to wonder, at least at the beginning of their marriage, if catelyn was disappointed in him and if she still preferred to be able to marry brandon. these issues never got resolved during their marriage, but at the same time we saw they bonded; they were loyal to each other, and their relationship developed into unconditional love. i think that i'm not doing them justice with what i'm writing, but to be honest, i love that arya loves and admires her parents’s relationship, but i don't feel the same way that she does. i don't hate them but i don't like them either; they are just there, existing for me. (i guess it's a bad time to mention that i'm a supporter of the "ashara dayne was ned's first love" headcanon)

let me continue to brienne of tarth. i think that brienne's infatuation with renly is similar to the one of sansa with joffrey, except for the big detail that what made brienne like renly was the fact that he was kind to her. and of course this carries a big significance to brienne because she was accustomed to being scorned, to be rejected, or even to be pitied. but then again, i think that brienne is enamoured of a certain image of renly, without knowing the person fully.

look, i don't want to touch brienne's relationship with jaime, because absolutely i could never do them justice. did you see how bad i sucked at talking about cat and ned's relationship? i don't want to repeat that, even though in this case i do ship braime. but, what i will say is that gendrya and braime both share the aspect that they actually know the person, their character and how they behave before getting romantic feelings involved in the mix. let me point to the sign that says, "they had shared traumatic experiences together that strengthened their bond with each other."

my girl dany comes next. i want to preface what i'm about to write next with: once i was young and stupid and i actually shipped daenerys with drogo (i guess that i saw the relationship similar to how cat and ned marriage came to be) now that i'm a little bit older, i can see the relationship for what it is: a child bride slave and his slaver. now i think that daenerys's mind was trying to protect her from the big traumatic situation she was in and made her believe that she was in love with her so called "husband" because the ugly truth was too much to process. people always love to forget that dany is a young child as well.

we see daenerys exploring her sexuality later on with irri and for me, her relationship with daario, is charged with a strong physical attraction (i have my own theory that is meant to showcase that dany has developed hypersexuality, as sometimes happens with survivors of sexual trauma; a reminder here that dany was subjected to marital rape) and this is a way in which she can reclaim her sexual expression.

i'm going to skip asha (sorry!) because i remember the least about her, other that, i never understood the decision that the show took to make her sapphic (i'm using that term because currently i can't remember if her show counterpart yara was bisexual or lesbian; i have seen some people using one and other people using another) when in the book she's clearly straight, i really don't understand why for some people it's so difficult to conceptualize that gender nonconforming women can be straight and like men.

i really took the long road to get here (this wasn't a reference, by the way) but taking all that i’ve already written into account. yeah i agree with the thought that we see most female characters having different romantic interests and short passions through the books, and yes, i understand where people are coming from when asking the question: why would be any different with arya?

i will become the most positive and deluded version of myself to point out the next stuff about gendrya, how they seem to break the pattern, and why they could be an exception to this.

let's start by saying that when arya and gendry met each other, neither of them found the other attractive to the point that they created a preconceived notion of who they were supposed to be or behave.

they didn't become friends right off the bat; arya knew gendry as the bull, and gendry knew arya as arry, the two of them using aliases.

from there, their "relationship" started to develop from two strangers that were forced to coexist in the same space (this sounds a lot worse than what actually was, because contrary to brienne and jaime, arya and gendry didn't have any animosity towards the other at the beginning) to the very start of a friendship based on mutual trust and understanding.

i do think that they impressed each other, with gendry being the only one willing to go back for arya and then later on arya returning the favor.

that brings me to the "only gendry was different" part of the book. i'm sorry, but i live by this quote, and yeah, i know that the plain context is that arya is considering telling gendry her real identity and how she could be safe telling him because the queen wanted him too, but my main takeaway from this part is that gendry has earned arya's trust by being himself.

and i really think that for gendry the same statement is true. only arya was different, even more after he was told her real identity. because here comes this little girl, as brave and kind as they come, protecting him and a bunch of other kids (she's literally being mother wolf protecting her pack) even when she's part of the nobility and the daughter of a lord. arya's existence is challenging his very own preconceived notions.

so we have these two kids, who have become each other's more trusted people while they are in the middle of a war-torn country trying their best to survive. they have built a very strong foundation for their relationship to develop into something more.

a while ago, i read a post talking that for arya, loving people is easy; she is curious, friendly, and kind; she loves to participate in a community; she knows how to adapt; she's a very passionate character, but what doesn't come as easy for her is trusting people, and i wholeheartedly agree. and gendry with his obstinate and loyal personality, presented himself as reliable and steady, a strong shoulder to rely on, the perfect candidate to obtain arya's trust, if i say so myself. and all of this was before any of the two developed any romantic interest in the other.

i swear i'll get into the angsty part of the deal, but i need to write first that gendrya, in comparison to ned and cat and/or dany and drogo (since both couples were married before they really knew each other) seems to have chosen each other; they started to develop feelings and physical attraction out of their own volition.

i think that is super interesting that arya has never had a problem noticing attractiveness in boys/men before or after, but we don't get a peep from her regarding gendry in this aspect, but we can infer it when we pay attention to all the multiple times where arya describes his deep blue eyes, and his hair always falling between said eyes. arya's focus is on how strong gendry is and how muscled he is, thinking about it even when she's mad at him and how if she were to hit him, he probably wouldn't feel it at all because he's muscled.

Arya knew which prince she meant: Joffrey, of course. The tall, handsome one. Sansa got to sit with him at the feast. Arya had to sit with the little fat one. Naturally.

“A man does not choose his companions in the black cells,” the handsome one with the red- and-white hair said.

She liked to pretend that one of them was Joffrey’s. She tried to picture how his pretty face would look dipped in tar.

“Her?” The Hound snorted. “Is she your mother, Dondarrion? Or your whore?” Dondarrion? Beric Dondarrion had been handsome; Sansa’s friend Jeyne had fallen in love with him. Even Jeyne Poole was not so blind as to think this man was fair.

The handsome man had a beard of a different color every time she saw him, and a different nose, but he was never less than comely.

“The gods must have loved him to give him such a voice, and that fair face as well.” He is fair of face and foul of heart, thought Arya.

Before summoning the serving men to carry him away, she knelt and felt his face, tracing the line of his jaw, brushing her fingers across his cheeks and nose, touching his hair. Curly hair, and thick. A handsome face, unlined. He was young.

time to bring another one of my favourite moments, so i don't think that it would be news for anyone who read the books, the fact that gendry dislikes edric dayne with a passion. what i think that people don't notice is that gendry started disliking him even before the reveal that he was the lord of starfall, and what was the motive for this? well, edric's only crime was spending time with arya and talking to her in highheart. then he learned that edric was a member of the nobility, same as arya, and i think that at that moment, gendry truly hated him.

so currently gendrya has graced us with a friendship that started slowly, but it ended up building a strong foundation, composed of mutual trust, understanding, and loyalty. a little bit later on, physical attraction was added to the mix, along with feelings of inadequacy and jealousy. and then it was cut short.

we had a slow but promising build on towards something more with no payoff in sight.

and from the top of my mind, i think that the only other couple that you could say the same about them, is braime.

so unlike sansa and brienne, arya spent a lot of time next to gendry, learning exactly the type of person he is. she never idealized gendry to be someone that he's not.

and unlike catelyn and dany, there was nothing forcing arya into a place where she develops romantic feelings for gendry as a duty, and it was the same thing for him as well. (again, this sounds so bad for the nedcat nation, but my honest opinion is that if you have two people forced to be married and then later on you learn that these people developed feelings for each other and now are in a loving relationship, it can be a "me" thing, but i cannot help but wonder if there was a little bit of conformism coming from both parties involved added to the mix)

can i say that from a reader standpoint, arya and gendry misunderstanding each other is just so perfectly angsty? i know that i'm biased, but i swear it hurts so bad to even think about it. no, but really. my dumb teen brain used to think that gendry's thoughts about his knighthood were almost "one track mind." and the actual meaning of this was gendry trying his best to climb the social ladder to be deserving of having the chance to get with arya.

but this couldn't be further from what i now consider the truth. this decision is about himself (as it should be!) i do think that gendry noticed arya's class blindness and how this would affect their friendship because in the society they live in, there's no way they could ever be equals, and more closely, the fact that arya's family would never accept their friendship no matter what arya said to him. this is all part of arya's own journey to accept the idea that people that she has known all her life are not the good guys and how her own family and their allies can be responsible for horrible things happening mostly to the smallfolk as well. this is something that the author has put emphasis on for arya to notice since mycah's death in the first book.

and gendry has seen this happen for most of his life, if i have to guess. and this gendry no longer wants to sit as peacefully as you could get while looking the other way; this was what he was doing under lucan's mentorship (?) apathy will get you nowhere, afterall. i think that we could add the fact that back in harrenhal he lived as an armourer would, what his life was meant to be before everything went to shit, and maybe he didn't like it; maybe he felt helpless, and i think he was set into conforming to this way of life before arya showed up with the idea of escaping harrenhal.

so we have gendry making his decision to stay with the brotherhood, first because he liked the idea of how they gave the hound a fair trial; second, the brotherhood presented themselves as outlaws fighting for the biggest victims of the wars all around them, the smallfolk, and that is something that gendry believes in and is willing to fight for. third, this was his best option since his friendship with arya would be a thing of the past whether he wanted or not, and arya's family would send him to the forge, and as i said before, i don't think that's where he wants to be anymore. fourth, i can see him thinking that arya is so close to getting reunited with her family, and probably her happiness about this fact would help lessen the blow of gendry not accepting to follow her again.

arya isn't able to see this decision in this particular light, gendry choosing to leave her only seems to fuel her abandonment issues and bring her self-esteem even lower than before. this is all happening while arya is already breaking down, thinking that her mother wouldn't want her anymore due to her appearance and reasoning that she's not worthy of rescue from her brother, who is a king now. and here's the boy, who she once considered her only true friend in the world, siding with her captors, the same people that kidnapped her and only see her as a means to get coin. i can see this reinforcing the awful idea that arya has of "other than jon, no one will ever love me" and of course this isn't gendry's fault, but it breaks my heart all the same.

and since then, the few times that arya thinks of gendry after getting separated from him, the thought that dominates over any other is that gendry didn't want to be her friend, and she was stupid for ever thinking so.

and that makes you think that if arya would consider that the friendship between them built in mutual trust was a lie from the beginning or gendry was just humoring her because she was a lady from a great house and him a lowborn bastard.

and this means for me that if we get arya and gendry reuniting, they're not going to hit it off; arya was hurt, and the trust and camaraderie they used to share are gone.

And without the time skip. I end up finding it a bit unfeasible to expect that only Arya never goes through these experiences and that she should be only be with him and end. As if she couldn't live other paths? I know it's not a popular opinion, but I think it's a natural aspect to see other possibilities in life.

oh god, this is where i'm very conflicted with myself. because, as a person, i completely agree with you here, but as a shipper, i don't want to agree.

and it doesn't help that it's probably less than a year since i discovered that the five-year time skip is no longer in the picture. my plan really was, i'll get back into asoiaf when twow is released, and by then arya is going to be 16 and gendry is going to be 20, which i learned a few months ago that they would have matched the age both should be (as a girl who is a highborn lady and as a boy who was under an apprenticeship) looking for a partner to marry. we really could have it all.

the thing is that i'm pretty sure that arya would get those experiences in braavos... the problem mostly relies on gendry (not really)

George mentioned the coming of age of Arya in Braavos in the context of how a writer had to discipline himself to write only as many chapters as were necessary to serve the story, saying that what Arya was dealing with in Braavos could make a worthy young adult novel in it’s own right.

"Arya is a lot of fun to write about. I could write a whole novel about Arya in Braavos."

meanwhile it's been a long time since i read a book of that particular genre... but all the ya books i still have stacked somewhere in my house from my teen years have a romantic theme as the main plot.

i'm inclined to believe that arya will have a romantic subplot in braavos just based on those previous quotes from the author, but at the same time, taking into account arya's personality and her curious nature, it fits and makes sense to see it as a possibility for me.

i'd dare to say that i'm a believer that "with the five-year time skip still in place, arya would have come back to westeros without a maidenhood for any man to claim"

now let me explain why i think that gendry could be the problem, but not really at the same time.

personally speaking, i don't find the notion of meeting a person when you're really young, falling in love with them, and them being your only romantic prospect as a healthy one. most likely is the aromantic cynic in me, but i believe that people in your life in the romantic aspect come and go and there's nothing you can do to stop them from doing so, so you better appreciate the time you have with them, and relationships are the best way to discover things about yourself.

but gendry in affc seems stuck in a sort of purgatory state. he's angry and seems to be consumed by guilt. this is my own speculation, but i believe that arya is front and center in his thoughts every day since she was kidnapped. and i'm desperate for someone to take him to the side and tell him that this isn't healthy. i get that the boy is grieving, and grief is expressed in different ways, and i have seen people theorizing that it has been around six or five months since arya was kidnapped in asos and gendry's appearance in affc, but my point still stands: this isn't healthy in the slightest.

and gendry doesn't seem interested in anyone around him, in a romantic or even friendly aspect, and that's why i have a problem with the widely accepted headcanon of gendry hooking up with one of the heddles, who it seems to be always jeyne, affc is showing us that gendry couldn't be more different than his father, even if he tried. the boy is not looking to get his dick wet with anyone. (i'll derrail here a little bit to talk about how most of the fics that follow the aforementioned headcanon have jeyne being the one seeking gendry out, and i have seen more than a few state that jeyne fell in love with him since the first time she saw him or since he came to live with them... and that leaves a weird feeling over me because in affc, jeyne is a 18 year old, already a woman grown, and gendry is a 14 year old, you know, an actual child)

now, with what i have said before, you'd think that i want gendry to experience another romantic prospect before reuniting with arya? well, no, i don't. but this time it doesn't have to do with gendry being his father's narrative foil but rather than somewhere along the way when grrm was writing gendry as a foil to robert in the sexuality aspect, gendry started to fit in a lot in a demisexual category and as a person that is part of the aspec community, i can't simply unsee it.

i don't think that this was the author's intention, and yes, demisexual!gendry is just another headcanon in a sea of them, but i live by this headcanon. like c'mon, what kind of boy rejects free sex offered to him in a society that doesn't see you as a man unless you have fucked someone?

and here's where the conflict in myself starts to show, because i truly believe that romantic relationships aid you in the process of discovering yourself as a person. but as the same person who knew that i was in fact asexual at the young age of 15 and succumbed to societal pressure from people around me telling me "that i couldn't know because i never had sex before" almost sounding as a "your statement isn't valid unless..." and after having a few romantic/sexual relationships in my early twenties, i can confirm that the 15 year old child that i was, still to this day, is right. and now looking back, i realize that i never had to prove myself to anyone, and i don't want gendry to go through the same things that i went through myself.

so... gendry is not interested in having sex or even having a romantic relationship with anyone else? good for him, and i fully support him. "only gendry was different" am i right?

For me, if she were really going to end up with him (something I don't believe anymore). It would be more interesting if she could experience other passions. I mean in the most innocent sense, like a first kiss and things like that. George comments that he has always known the main characters' endings since 1991. And I don't think that includes G/A as endgame and like the only option in her life… I still like them a lot. However, I have a very different opinion from fandom.

i said that i agree with the thought of gendrya not being endgame, and i do, but i think that my decision has a lot more to do with the fact that jonrya in all books is so strong, i'd be an idiot to not recognize it as such.

and this, plus the fact that i believe that the original outline is still relevant to the story, is why we truly respect jonrya in this humble gendrya household that is my sideblog...

but at the end of the day, it all comes down to preferences, and i like gendrya more than jonrya... it's just that i see arya and gendry as more evenly matched in a sense. i think that i have a problem with the fact that jon is arya's own idol, and the idealization of your partner in relationships is not something i find healthy.

and just because i want to come back to the beginning in a way, if we believe that the "quote" is real, gendrya having separated futures doesn't negate the possibility of them getting romantically involved in the first place.

so where i currently stand as a gendrya shipper, is if they happen, they happen and i’m going to be ecstatic for them, because i love them both and i want them to have good things in their life, i agree with you that they aren’t going to be endgame but i still have the littlest hope in my heart, it’s just both of them have so much life and fertility symbolism, you know?

and i think that i have to end this with the least positive version of myself, saying that i believe that grrm doesn't owe us anything as an author, and with every day that passes, i'm losing hope of ever getting to read twow... so there's the possibility that we will never know (?)

this isn't me trying to bring my favourite band into the mix, but i really think that gendrya is going to be my favourite "what if" and my best "i'll never know"

if you have read all of this post, thank you for putting up with me for this long. and thank you, anon for sending me this ask in the first place and for your patience. i'd say take a shot every time i wrote "i think", but that would be encouraging alcohol poisoning, so let's not do that.

#this was 9 pages long on google docs i'm such an idiot that i really thought now that my discussion about the quote is out of the way #this was going to be short and precise #a song of ice and fire #asoiaf #house stark #arya stark #gendry #gendrya #arya x gendry #gendry x arya #ren rambles

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rise-my-angel · 4 months ago

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I love how you phrase it. I criticise ships for being toxic and I get told "it's fiction. Stop being a puritan" and really it's a criticism of them striving for such a harmful thing to happen to the characters. "Oh well it doesn't reflect on my character". I mean, as an example, who wants to see Robb die the way that he did? Nobody sits there and goes, "oh boy, i'm going to watch the most soal destroying scene in Game if Thrones history and I'm going to enjoy it". Nobody enjoys that scene. It's so good exactly because of how much nobody enjoys it. But it's the tropification of such media that makes people think they can list off their demands for the story and expect everything to happen, playing out like a map that gives them a pass through every hurdle for this stuff, so they think they should want these fucked up dynamics to happen, but they also don't want the soul crushing that is involved in those scenarios, like Jon realising he fucked his aunt. They just want the drama without the consequence. Like... Guys you're doing media wrong. I don't know any other way to put it.

I am of the opinion, that there is nothing wrong with taking your own morality, ethics and life experiences, to better connect with a story.

The reason we tell each other stories, is so we can truly bond with one another about the complexities of human life through fictional stories. We do not have to worry about perfectly related to it, because it was never real. But parts of it will always be real to someone in some way. We will always connect to characters through our own lives and morals and it is important that we respect that.

Enjoying dark stories or disturbing content does not make you a bad person, only when you let those disturbing contents dictate how you see the real world is it bad, not the other way around. We can enjoy a show when characters go through bad things they do not deserve, because if it is well written, filmed, acted, it puts you in that scenario and make you root for that character to escape it and get better. It's good not because of the bad, but because we all hope for them to escape the bad before it's too late.

I like that it took a series of traumatic events for Jaime Lannister to reach the point where he was capable of turning his life into something meaningful. But I do not enjoy watching him suffer, nor do I wish it took that trauma in the first place. I like that he fought against a horrible situation, but that doesn't mean I wanted Jaime's hand to be cut off in the first place, or for him to be humiliated and beaten into the mud and mocked. I like watching it, because I hate what is happening. I want to see him get up and fight back, and watching him go through that journey is worth it for where he ends up on the other side.

I like the concept of Jon getting to the exact point Jaime Lannister did, of sacrificing what is considered honorable, to do the right thing. Killing a Queen he is loyal to, to protect his family, his people, and to protect the other millions of people in Westeros from suffering the same fate he just watched one million people brutally perish from. I like the realization that as much as his father raised him to value the right things, Jon comes to his own conclusion that Jaime sacrificed ever having that image in order to do the right thing, instead of the honorable one. That your loyalty and oaths mean nothing if you just stand by and watch as millions of men, women and children burn alive.

I hate the journey that took him there. And not in the same way as Jaime. The journey Jon took was traumatic to the point he will never truly recover. Sleeping with a woman who has kept him hostage for weeks if not months, only to soon after find out that he was related to her in the exact same way he previously thought he was related to his mother? Jon likely would never be capable of a normal relationship after that, he would be traumatized for life and be extremely messed up about it. Likely in the same way that Theons torture and mutilation left him unable to pursue a normal relationship after that trauma.

I do not think anything a shipper could've gotten out of that relationship is worth the harm that it caused. I think, that it is reasonable for me to use my own sense of morality, and my own life experience of relationship based sexual trauma, and determine that it is unhealthy to WANT to see Jon go through all of that, just to get to the few parks that were "romantic". It was not worth it in Jons eyes, so why should it be worth it in mine?

Jon Snow is one of my favourite characters, and I shouldn't want to make him suffer and feel trauma just to see the outcome I want. I don't connect to Jon because he is a prop for my entertainment, I connect to Jon because of my own life experiances make me feel like I relate to his struggles. Why would I ever ENJOY or LOOK FORWARD TO his suffering, just to get him to an end goal I like?

I'd rather Jon not reach that end goal, if the only way is to put him through life changing trauma that he likely will never truly recover from. No one should want that, and they don't. But they refuse to acknowledge that in order to get to that goal the way it did, Jon had to go through those things. Jon had to be put in a complicated amount of pain and suffering that ultimately did not improve his life. But they do not want to look at it. So they ignore the reality of what is being shown, and focus on the small moments that they can ship.

This happened with Ygritte too, they share a scene of banter when south of the wall and it is the only proof they have to point that it was all worth it, when Jon clearly was actually suffering the entire time.

Small pockets of good are not proof it is all good. Abuse is a cycle, and part of that cycle is there are good moments. Moments that remind you why you like this person, and they are by design so that you are not pushed too far too often and decide to leave them. The good does not wash out the bad. Nor the bad, the good. It all adds up to a full image of was this worth enjoying for the pain it put Jon through, and my answer for both his relationships is no.

I don't get to just ignore the suffering it takes to get somewhere for a moment or two of ship worthy content. I can't ignore it and I won't ignore it. Because in my life, I would not be able to ignore the suffering I was put through, so I will not ignore Jons, because my ability to relate to his trauma is part of why I am attached to him. So I do not consider so much harm to be worth such small outcomes when the outcome in the end of the big picture, was just more harm.

Fiction is meant to be related to through your own life and morals, that is how we connect to characters and stories. Because of what in our own lives do we see in the fiction, and how that makes us feel. So I think disregarding the fact that certain ships are the result of putting a character through unfair and unnecessary harm, is not okay behavior.

If you're someone who is not bothered by the trauma Jon goes through in a Jonerys ship, that is your experience of that ship, but you should recognize, that the harm does exist. And you should not want that harm to happen to that character willingly, or turn a blind eye to the harm just to pretend everything is alright and always was.

I respect the art of storytelling to much to pretend that not caring about the harm a character goes through, doesn't somewhat reflect on who you are as a person. It doesn't say everything about you, but I think it says enough.

I think Jonerys is a ship that harms Jon more then it could ever benefit him, and I think it is unfair to the character he is, to want him to go through that inevitable harm just because you enjoy what little good there was, if there even was any in the first place. Because the harm is there, even if you pretend you're not looking at the harm, it's still there, and you know it.

You are just choosing to pretend it's not, to make yourself feel justified.

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