#but other characters being shipped? without jon?

[sparky-is-spiders]

Maybe i already asked that but whatcha think of jon/sasha/elias as a poly ship. Doomed to fail? Very dramatic but ultimately works? Personally i think elias and sasha would uh. Butt heads to say the least. I can see them work individually but in a poly ship... Eh. Maybe if you add in tim instead of jon he could errr moderate the polycule

Hmmm. I've definitely thought about it a bit (mostly in the context of "Elias should be weird about his archivist"). But the problem is that I'm a Jonshipper at heart and my brain doesn't do as much chewing on non-Jon characters. I think I could see a ship where Jon is sort of the hinge? Like Jon's dating Sasha AND Elias but they're only really connected through Jon (and working at the Institute. And being Eyevatars). There would be some level of fondness there (especially if this is dual archivists Jonsasha and they're getting Blended). Personally I see Sasha being "well he's kind of annoying but I guess Jon likes him so I can tolerate him." Don't currently know what Elias' approach to Sasha would be.

Tim being there could add a Dynamic? But again we run into the problem where my brain refuses to generate ideas or opinions if my Special Little Boy isn't there. It's puffing out smoke. There's nothing. Im sorry.

Oh wait if we're going full Eyevatar au I do think Sasha and Elias could and should bond over enjoying seeing Jon in distress. Eyevatar snack time y'know how it is.

(I mean I think they would all enjoy seeing the others suffer (even if it also hurt or horrified them) but Jon's the one I want to see suffering the mostest. I want to bite the scruff of his neck and violently shake him)

[agentrouka-blog]

What made you first interested in Jonsa? I really want to love Jonsa. Which may sound strange. But hear me out. I’ve read all the metas and from a metatextual level I really agree with and believe in Jonsa. But I have trouble actually enjoying it and I think maybe it’s because so much content seems to focus on Jon pining over Sansa. I’d much prefer to see things from Sansa’s perspective where she sees the hero in him and sees that maybe all the songs aren’t lies after all as opposed to him “winning her over.” I feel I have been inundated my whole life with stories of outcast men pining over beautiful women they see as out of their league and “winning them over” and I honestly find the trope tiring because it’s so male perspective focused and doesn’t give Sansa the agency of choosing her lover, instead, making her something to be won or earned. If you have any suggestions for Jonsa content that focuses heavily on Sansa’s point of view, on her falling for Jon first (or at least falling for each other at the same time without realizing it) I’d love to hear them! And I’d love to hear what makes Jonsa appeal to you on a personal non-meta level!

Hi there!

I too draw a difference between Jonsa as a theory and shipping it for entertainment.

I've drifted quite a bit away from what you describe as "content", which is fanworks, art and fanfiction. My tastes are very narrow and that puts me outside the target audience for a lot of what is being shared by creators. Plus, I get a great deal more personal enjoyment out of just interpreting the canon text. I enjoy what the couple represents in the narrative more than I necessarily enjoy immersing myself in different non-canonical variants.

And there's a lot of variants. You have two similar but also very different canon-sources (books and tv show) and within those two sources very different takes on the couple. For as many "Jon pines for higborn Sansa" approaches you get an equal amount of "Sansa jealously pines for her brother's oblivious best friend" modern au's. What we enjoy in recreational reading is extremely personal and subjective.

That said, for fear of disappointing you, I don't particular enjoy the "Sansa falls first" scenarios because what I like about the couple especially is the idea of Sansa finally being appreciated for who she is. Canon offers us plenty of examples of Sansa extending affection and crushes on other characters. They are never truly reciprocated, and they join in on a theme of Sansa going unappreciated for her qualities by the world around her. She is disregarded, mocked, criticized, belittled, humiliated. So much so that a large part of the fandom considers this to be justified and educational for her. She has given up on being loved for herself, but she will not sacrifice her values as a consequence. So someone falling in love with her is to me a very compelling and cathartic validation of Sansa as a person. Of course, this only works if the person falling for Sansa is actually attractive to her and embodies the things we know she has been looking for all this time. But specifically the idea that Sansa falls first fails my personal taste because it contains a sense of lacking reciprocation that we've already seen multiple times in her story. She's been not-loved-in-return a lot already.

I do enjoy the concept of Jon being loved by Sansa, too, because it validated aspects of him he usually keeps close to his chest. Things that touch on his specific mixed sense of identity as a nobly-raised bastard. He has soft sensibilities, a romantic disposition, pedestrian dreams of family and home, and highly idealistic and emotional ideals surrounding leadership that center on duty and honor. But he is generally not appreciated for those specific things. He is appreciated for his brains and his abilities, his bravery, his pragmatism, his loyalty to his friends and duties - but not for the boy who wants to be Lord of Winterfell with a lady wife and babies, who wants to be a hero from the songs, Florian the Fool, Ryam Redwyne. It's a lovely and very specific recognition of a very private part of Jon, to be loved for his secret soft self.

But it's not my primary focus because unlike Sansa, Jon still receives a lot of validation and love in the source material. It's just not the specific kind he wants. So that makes it comparatively less compelling to me.

That doesn't mean that Sansa primarily falling in love with Jon isn't an equally valid thing to enjoy! It's just that I can't make you any good recommendations on this subject specifically because it's not my specific favorite flavor of jonsa.

I wish you good luck though!

[devine-fem]

why don't you like jayjon? Genuinely asking btw and I'm neutral btw I don't really ship superheroes kids, so yeah

Alright, firstly I have always come across damijon shippers that ship them as kids because their purest connection peaked when they were young so you kind of permanently keep Jon and Damian as kid in your head because of what DC did to them.

We ship them in a ‘wholesome crush on your best friend, twisting inside you over time that you snub out till you reach your adulthood and have the maturity to deal with it’ type of way. The beauty of Damijon is not the fact that it’s Bat x Super. I honestly don’t care for this dynamic ergo not shipping superbat and not liking Timkon at all. The beauty of Damijon is that they could become something with a friendship to back it up, then continue to push each other’s characters forward while being in a relationship if the writer cared enough. It’s a plus that they care for each other so much and have the personalities to really balance each other out.

I enjoy ships like Daminika, Dami x Colin and other Jon ships as well. I just only post damijon and talk about them. It’s only Jonj*y I have issues with. It’s not about ‘getting in the way of my ship’ nothing can ever get in the way of me enjoying damijon and fandom is just gonna have to deal with that. We all come here for enjoyment because we should supposedly enjoy DC for DC and find community in that, enjoy our ideas and takes on it and one person is not going to perceive or enjoy something the same way but we are so damn MEAN to each other. Damijon gets a lot of heat, mostly because twitter damijon stans are annoying and horrible and damijon antis are just as bad.

So the problem I have with Jonj*y is just deep rooted.

Firstly, I hate the way it came about. The last thing Jon’s character needed was to be in a relationship period but then for it to be a queer relationship used as a tool to garner sales? There’s nothing in the world I dislike more than queer baiting. The last thing we needed from DC was to pull something like this and as a queer person it just really gets under my skin - as it should anyone, to be honest.

Even regardless of that Jonj*y is the relationship equivalent of stale bread. They have no chemistry, Jay has no character besides catoring to Jon’s sexuality, and even if they were to explore him there’s no point because objectively they’ve tarnished Jon Kent way too much to be wasting comic ink on Jay.

I don’t like aged up Jon Kent as a whole, it’s not like I want him to stay a kid forever - obviously not. The fun of a comic book character is their growth! Jon over time should have never been able to get to the age he is now when other comic book characters struggle to get near that age in decades. I MEAN HE’S NEARLY OLDER THAN KON RIGHT NOW. Bendis did what he did to Jon because he ain’t even like him.

There are real serious issues with Jon Kent’s age up than him getting with Damian. I know how to seperate my ship/fanon from canon. I can go on and on about the problems with it without mentioning Damian once.

I had to put “JonJ*y apologist DNI” in my bio because the stans kept coming to my page and spewing BS 24/7 so I thought it was my absolute right to make sure they knew this page was not for them.

If you enjoy the ship at all then you will not like me because I have almost every single active Jonj*y poster blocked because I have fought with them at least once because they wanted to be stupid and spew nonsense on Jon Kent when you can tell they haven’t read a damn comic besides SSOKE and it really shows.

If you enjoy it, just block me. It’s only a matter of time before we fight anyway, so don’t waste your breath because the whole time you could be trying to open your mouth, you could open a comic book instead, how about that?

Thanks for the asks though, LOL.

P.2

[magpod-confessions]

i saw the ask that was saying jonelias hate was homophobic but wtgfs hate wasn’t lesbophobic and didn’t want to reblog it because i didn’t want to get involved in drama but. yikes.

the wtgfs thing- no, it is absolutely not lesbophobic to be more interested in the main characters than a side ship. that does not change the fact that misogyny and lesbophobia are a pervasive issue in popular and fandom culture. i feel like it’s possible to acknowledge that main wlw ships being ignored for a side mlm pairing is something that happens, and that’s bad, and it is also not inherently misogynistic to be less invested in a side wlw pairing.

the jonelias thing- yes, treating jonelias like some terrible morally reprehensible thing is silly, and no it’s not somehow inherently sexual. there are many darker/more questionable ships that are significantly more widely accepted, and not everybody is going to be interested in jmart. a lot of people like corruption arcs and would have found that to be more interesting. however, you cannot just call someone a bigot because they prefer the canon ship over your fanon interpretation. a lot of people aren’t going to like a ship like jonelias, for plenty of different reasons. maybe it doesn’t fit the way they see the characters, they would prefer jon regaining his humanity and healing in a healthy way, maybe they just don’t like it. that doesn’t make them inherently homophobic. you can disagree with someone and dislike their ships without it meaning they are a bad person.

the mean lesbian thing- i feel they missed the point here. the issue isn’t jonny writing women as mean lesbian stereotypes. none of the characters even have a canon sexuality beyond tim and jon liking multiple genders and jon being somewhere on the ace spectrum, and even those are vague. the issue is fandom stereotyping, seeing women in a terrible situation under pressure getting angry at a man and then deciding they must be mean man hating lesbians. seeing a man who has a sense of humor and is presumably bisexual and deciding he’s a flirty slut with the emotional capacity of a teaspoon. seeing a violent woman who cares for another woman and deciding she must be a masculine butch lesbian and other interpretations are somehow wrong. etc.

can we please all just acknowledge that nuance exists and differing opinions aren’t evil

.

[tempestvista]

spoiler warnings for TMA

There is a decent possibility that I am going to eat my words if anything changes greatly since I have not fully finished TMA (Iirc I'm in the middle of season 4? I've been on pause for a bit though so I need to find my place again)

But can I just say how frustrating it is that like everyone villainizes Jonathan Sims in the fandom lmao?? Especially without even considering him and his character + character development as a part of his multi-faceted person and instead just dumbing him down to a one dimensional evil guy who they can also ship with others because ui ui sexo sexo

Now there are obvious things/reasons to dislike him. Namely, the stalking of his employees, which, I don't think I need to explain why is problematic and gross.

But the things I see listed as points against Jonathan Sims are often just… Side effects of him being non-consensually turned into a monster by a deeply calculating man who has a plethora of more knowledge from the get-go and far more manipulation over the situation than Jon himself? ''He killed innocent people!!'' Alright, so did multiple of the other characters?? Like a lot of them, actually?? That's. A really common theme??????????? An overarching pattern (in my analysis/eyes anyhow) in TMA is that literally almost no one gets a happy ending and usually the ones who ''do'' are based in the suffering of others + they've been turned

It just actually infuriates me when I see the "he killed innocent people'' argument without anyone acknowledging how it is near impossible to fight your nature as an avatar and again, really, really loosely saying here because I do not fully recall, but it seems like going against that nature can and WILL kill you. And you can call it selfish, but really, who WOULDN'T want to die? A lot of people have both a conscious and primal instinct to, you know, LIVE.

And again, also not acknowledging that multiple others have done the same.

Also, I see people either justify or entirely ignore the fact that at some point he was being utterly demeaned and belittled by everyone around him. If he wasn't being manipulated by Elias, he was being avoided by Martin, Melanie making cruel digs, being hovered over also by any given person, and generally having petty to hateful comments tossed at him by MOST individuals on any day at any hour. I acknowledge my bias and love for him really does jump out in this, but it also does make me mad that no one seems to care for the fact that he is ALSO a victim. He's a victim of manipulation, of being groomed into being an avatar (at least in my eyes), of being harmed by multiple entities and having lasting marks and impacts from each of them, of being falsely accused of murder (and everyone he knew at the time BELIEVING he was guilty), of being kidnapped/held hostage (MORE THAN ONCE), having to witness literal ghosts/bodies/skins of previous people he knew be lifted around and surrounding him talking about how he's a failure, a bad person, a bad archivist, the worst of the worst- which I cannot IMAGINE the nightmares that that situation would breed. Genuinely just sit and think about that for a moment. Also, as far as the Unknowing and any harm derived from that situation, if we're talking specifically about Sims again, he also had to live with the fact afterward that he was the reason Tim got killed. He has to live with the fact that he was so overwhelmed by everything and the manipulation of Nikola + the Stranger that when he came out of it, Tim had to be the one to end it because Jon failed to. He has to live with Tim being gone, and the fault of it weighing down on him. That is something that I do think one can blame him for (if I am recounting this all correctly). I wanted to bring this up in specific because Survivors guilt is very real and that whole ordeal and blaming must have been something beyond harrowing. He had to realize a thing was basically marching around in the corporeal idea of Sasha and that it WASN'T. HER. Of course this whole podcast is centered around being a nightmare, which is why I find it important to acknowledge the impacts of the nightmare on the people who very much are experiencing them!! And on a continued basis!! Living in that consistent traumatizing environment, developing hypervigilance, watching people drop like flies around you, like. holy shit man. Being traumatized, being threatened by what seems like fate itself at times, and also being used as a pawn for a massive scheme which he didn't even know was a thing. He used to have a life prior to all the world-ending, supernatural, lovecraftian horror stuff that became his new normal.

I know a lot of people would bash the ''I'm a victim too!'' card, but I really don't think that is an easy dismissal here because he just legitimately is.

That, and the people who villainize him also get really.. weird? At times? Like I know this is no longer an uncommon opinion - at least I hope not, but I don't really interact with TMA fandom at all besides liking, reblogging and saving fanart + fics- But people really just tend to make him into this gross or just. Absolutely downright awful human being (occasionally fetishizing his very nature even sometimes) and then Martin is the cutesy innocent person who has never done a single thing wrong in his life, Tim is the sexy hot bisexual who would fuck anything from a lamp-pole to eight mothmen, and Sasha is some demure, sweet and lovely little thing who only exists as just another background person in the polychives.

I can't say I've really seen that characterization of Sasha often thankfully… but that's also because some people straight up forget she was a vital character at one point lol (and I confess I'm not deeply attached to her so the art I save of her is usually secondary/included in other fanart)

I know some of this is redundant, and I am certain that if my memory wasn't so in and out as it is (especially as of late, the dissociation has been… bad, topic for another day, anywho-) I would be able to make more points against the things I've seen, but this is just one facet I really felt like addressing, since I think almost no one is innocent in TMA and harping on Jon specifically is … honestly pointless?? And bland/low hanging fruit as far as the conversation goes? Like big whoop, he's a monster, so is a majority of the characters in TMA? Lmfao??

All in all I say this without aggression or targeted vitriol. I hope people understand I am allowed to be angry at words without hating and/or wishing harm upon the people who say them /npa gen

And if someone happens to see this and has something to contribute, or a point to be made against me, I will gladly listen and engage! I like when people show me my errors, it gives me more perspectives. (Not intended arrogantly, genuine).

I do want it to be clear though that just because this is something I would love to discuss if anyone actually DOES - that doesn't mean I'm accepting of petty spats or arguments.

[gabbynyssa]

Okay, so while I do loathe the tendency of DC to become completely centered around just the Bats and Kryptonians; I do love when a strong dynamic between two of them is formed and becomes a core part of how fans view the characters. Not just shipping, but that too.

Like... We have the classic chums, Bruce and Clark, constantly steeped in homoromantic tension, regardless of how little DC want to admit it, but also from that closeness we got Nightwing: a hero raised by Batman but more interested in being a part of his "uncle" Superman's legacy.

Then, when Kal-El's estranged cousin and Batman's commissioner friend's daughter meet, Supergirl and Batgirl form a recurring duo that for awhile was just as shippable if not more so than Clark and Bruce. (And tbh it's kinda a shame that we rarely see Kara and Babs hanging out during Oracle storylines)

And after the deaths of Jason Todd and Superman, two unlikely teens stepped in to try to fill those roles before either could pull their rendition of a phoenix rising from the ashes: Tim Drake and Kon-El: the Robin that found Batman and the clone that would be Superman. Both struggling with who they wanted to be and who they were expected to be at birth, but united by that with a team of similar young people that wanted to just be themselves. (And possibly the most shippable duo in the whole lineup)

Later into their lives, both heroes found themselves with sons. One by choice, the other by circumstances out of his control. These sons were Jon Kent and Damian Wayne: the first naturally born half-Kryptonian/half-human eager to get into the heroing whist his parents desperately try to make sure he gets to just be a kid, and an assassin trained from birth that chose his father's kinder mantle over his grandfather's castle built on bones. Both stuck between halves and initially stuck together because of who their parents were. Despite their differences, or possibly because of them, they each found the other to be a kindred spirit, and grew to be inseparable friends with so much potential between them that their respective families basically dread the two of them without supervision. (Tho arguably they were more primed to work well together than Damian would like to admit, as Dick Grayson, then former Nightwing, had been the Batman to his Robin and his surrogate father figure for much more of his early hero days than Bruce had.)

And then, after many a death, rebirth, reboot and retcon, we find two cast-off members of these families... Jason Todd: an anomaly caused by a fracturing multiverse, his past even more a patchwork after that multiverse rebooted and then again when his found family of Outlaws regained their previous timeline friends and memories; and the third Bizarro of post-Flashpoint Earth One: fated to follow in some of the footsteps of Bizarro No. 1(the third Bizarro pre-Flashpoint) but cast aside for not being the same as the second Bizarro of his own timeline, who sacrificed himself to save it. Brought together thru meddling by Lex Luthor along with Artemis, an Amazon who'd also been uprooted from her past's continuity, they became like family; Jason and Artemis helping Bizarro to find who he wanted to be for himself and all finding some semblance of peace in a world that accepted none of them with open arms.

(Yes, I could get into Diana, Donna and Cassie's wonderful dynamics with their respective Bats and Kryptonians, but they're not as integral to the meeting and dynamics of the others, and the WW family isn't as frustratingly all consuming of the DC comic lineups)

[buttercuparry]

I now know why the idea that courtesy is the answer to every conflict is so prevalent in the fandom. You have a handful of tumblr intellectuals who would rather discuss if Arya should have been feeling guilty about killing the Bolton guard or the degree of it ( he is just a guy standing around, we don't know anything about him, hey maybe he doesn't get paid enough to stop 3 prisoners from leaving!), rather than acknowledge that Arya had gone through hell to survive and she more than any other Stark kid knows the cost of war. Arya's list is called fucked up ( they add the "understandable" adjective immediately after but reiterate that it's fucked up). And the prevalent idea then, in use of all these words is equating Arya to violence. Which is why all those incorrect quote posts of 'Arya's every solution being violence' get so many notes.

Arya's list isn't the measure of her violence. It instead is the proof of her trauma. And she tries again and again to leave the nightmares behind: the countless times she tries to reach Jon, her feeling what good does Joffrey's death do if her mother and brothers are dead, her wanting to stay on with the crew of Titan's daughter.

They would talk about how fucked up her list is hence insinuate the tremendous capacity of violence and draw up theories after theories about Faceless Men but won't ever be conscious enough to recognize that Arya never truly wanted anything to do with the FM ( even after reaching Braavos she tries to stay on the ship).

So imagine knowing all these. To have read all these chapters and to get stuck on the ethics of murdering the Bolton guard. Mind you this is brought up because it has been admitted that previously Arya has had to kill in self defense and for others. There has been a reiteration that there these kills are pardonable since there had been an active threat on her. But the murder of the Bolton guard is a matter of ethics!

And you know what I am not even arguing about that. It is a grey area. But it's the extra scrutiny placed on the female character that gets to me. A clood blooded premeditated murder committed!! As if this murder exists in vacuum. As if this girl who the world around knows to be a commoner would have been allowed to leave Harrenhal by that guard just standing around. As if prisoners and slaves have a say on what is to be their fate. As if each day and every day Arya isn't surrounded by the violence wrought in Harrenhal. As if this violence wasn't necessary for her to make a safe escape.

They would argue it wasn't and here I realize that the issue goes deeper than that. Here is an excerpt of their dialogue:

They maintain that only Gendry and Hot Pie had been in danger here. That Arya was actually safe as she could have just revealed her identity anytime and apparently there were ways of proving it without one recognizing her face ( I doubt that).

Somehow this makes me realize that this sort of thinking is what dismisses Arya's entire arc. This is what had been going wrong in the tv show which reduced all of Arya's trauma to ✨adventure✨because they think all the suffering Arya went through was intentional and could have been stopped anytime! All she had to do was reveal her identity.

I honestly do not know what Arya could have done to prove she was a Stark. When they sent guards to hunt her down and Arya realized that maybe in convincing her two friends to run away with her, she has in turn condemned them- Arya makes a decision to reveal who she is and let herself taken hostage. But here's the thing and no matter how many so called intellectuals throw up shit that her identity could have easily been proven-there would always, always the matter of chance. They could believe or they won't. And what would happen if they won't? Arya would be killed.

Now let's see what would have happened if Roose had ahold of the real Arya? Wouldn't she be in the place of Jeyne Poole. Jeyne has had to suffer under a monster, under a sadist. And those cries that echo around Winterfell now, would have been Arya's. This is what the fandom wants. I mean to say this is what the fandom wants from its female characters. Be the passive recipient of all that is to happen. There is no admiration in taking yourself promptly out of a situation that can be dangerous by actively interfering in the storyline. Act only when an action has been committed against you. There would have been more sympathy for Arya if she bled the way they wanted her to. If her cries echoed through halls. If she wasn't an active participant in her own storyline.

The other thing is the matter of could have. There is always the matter of could have when it comes to Arya. Arya could have tried to be more courteous. Arya could have just let Joffrey cut Mycah's face. And now Arya could have hatched a plan keeping in mind the safety of not only her party but of everyone else ( the Bolton guard) and snuck past. Every decisive control Arya takes is countered with a could have. That Arya chose to simply eliminate the risk in a situation that begged a safe escape isn't taken well. There is always a could have even when the text itself provides us with no definitive answer to this alternative could have.

I never understood how people could judge Dany when she actively brings down an empire of slavery. But now I think I can. There is no passivity. There is unapologetic action against the slave masters. They too perhaps are just some guys standing around to many in this fandom. And every decisive move against them, every violence against them also brings about the compulsion of the could have.

These female characters refuse to be a part of the could have. Of passivity. Their grey actions are to take back control of their storyline. Hence are they vilified. And hence should there be guilt and remorse on their part.

[jackoshadows]

“It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife.” - Pride and Prejudice "Only half a hundred times," Dany teased. "You gave up too easily, my lord. For I must marry, all agree." "A khaleesi must have a khal," said Irri, as she filled the queen's cup once again. "This is known." - Daenerys, ADWD.

I have been listening to Austen on my way to work everyday. Finished P&P and have taken up Mansfield Park. It's, IMO, singularly boring and not as entertaining as the rest of Austen's work. It's incredibly slow, there's pages and pages of events that does not push the plot forward - like the play the Bertrams and Crawfords put on - and Fanny is the least interesting of Austen's female leads.

There have been discussions on how, in terms of Austen heroines, Arya Stark comes closest to Elizabeth Bennet with regards to her questioning of the patriarchal ideals of femininity, her wit and vivacity, as detailed here and here.

However, I did notice some similarities between the characters/dynamics of Mansfield Park, the Starks of ASoIaF and one my asoiaf ships Jonrya!

First, there is 10 year old Fanny feeling the outcast and lonely at Mansfield Park until Edmund steps in and befriends her.

Afraid of everybody, ashamed of herself, and longing for the home she had left, she knew not how to look up, and could scarcely speak to be heard, or without crying. Her feelings were very acute, and too little understood to be properly attended to. Nobody meant to be unkind, but nobody put themselves out of their way to secure her comfort. - Fanny, MP

Reminds me of Arya in King's Landing feeling lonely and missing her home, brothers and especially Jon Snow.

That was when Arya missed her brothers most. She wanted to tease Bran and play with baby Rickon and have Robb smile at her. She wanted Jon to muss up her hair and call her “little sister” and finish her sentences with her. But all of them were gone. She had no one left but Sansa, and Sansa wouldn’t even talk to her unless Father made her. - Arya, AgoT

She went back to the window, Needle in hand, and looked down into the courtyard below. If only she could climb like Bran, she thought; she would go out the window and down the tower, run away from this horrible place, away from Sansa and Septa Mordane and Prince Joffrey, from all of them. Steal some food from the kitchens, take Needle and her good boots and a warm cloak. She could find Nymeria in the wild woods below the Trident, and together they’d return to Winterfell, or run to Jon on the Wall. She found herself wishing that Jon was here with her now. Then maybe she wouldn’t feel so alone. - Arya, AGoT

We have Fanny sad and feeling like no one really understands or cares for her and then being comforted by Edmund.

A week had passed in this way, and no suspicion of it conveyed by her quiet passive manner, when she was found one morning by her cousin Edmund, the youngest of the sons, sitting crying on the attic stairs. “My dear little cousin,” said he, with all the gentleness of an excellent nature, “what can be the matter?” And sitting down by her, he was at great pains to overcome her shame in being so surprised, and persuade her to speak openly.

This mirrors Arya's relationship with Jon, where we know he is whom she goes to for solace and companionship - not her father, mother or other siblings. It's Jon Snow. Like getting bullied over her appearance leading to her thinking she was a bastard and getting comforted by Jon Snow.

"A shade more fun than needlework," Arya gave back at him. Jon grinned, reached over, and messed up her hair. Arya flushed. They had always been close. Jon had their father's face, as she did. They were the only ones. Robb and Sansa and Bran and even little Rickon all took after the Tullys, with easy smiles and fire in their hair. When Arya had been little, she had been afraid that meant that she was a bastard too. It had been Jon she had gone to in her fear, and Jon who had reassured her. - Arya, AGoT

Edmund and Fanny becoming very close and Edmund helping Fanny get pen and paper to write home and selling his own horse to get a new horse for Fanny so that she can go riding - which she loves to do!

For a long while no answer could be obtained beyond a “no, no—not at all—no, thank you”; but he still persevered; and no sooner had he begun to revert to her own home, than her increased sobs explained to him where the grievance lay. He tried to console her. “If that be all your difficulty, I will furnish you with paper and every other material, and you may write your letter whenever you choose. Would it make you happy to write to William?” - MP

Though Edmund was much more displeased with his aunt than with his mother, as evincing least regard for her niece, he could not help paying more attention to what she said; and at length determined on a method of proceeding which would obviate the risk of his father’s thinking he had done too much, and at the same time procure for Fanny the immediate means of exercise, which he could not bear she should be without. He had three horses of his own, but not one that would carry a woman. Two of them were hunters; the third, a useful road-horse: this third he resolved to exchange for one that his cousin might ride; he knew where such a one was to be met with; and having once made up his mind, the whole business was soon completed. The new mare proved a treasure; with a very little trouble she became exactly calculated for the purpose, and Fanny was then put in almost full possession of her. - MP

Jon secretly gets a sword, light and thin, made especially to fit Arya's hands and gifts it to her because she wants to learn how to use a sword.

“I have something for you to take with you, and it has to be packed very carefully.”  Her face lit up. “A present?”  “You could call it that. Close the door.” Wary but excited, Arya checked the hall. "Nymeria, here. Guard." She left the wolf out there to warn of intruders and closed the door. By then Jon had pulled off the rags he'd wrapped it in. He held it out to her. Arya's eyes went wide. Dark eyes, like his. "A sword," she said in a small, hushed breath. "I can be fast," Arya said. "You'll have to work at it every day." He put the sword in her hands, showed her how to hold it, and stepped back. "How does it feel? Do you like the balance?" "I think so," Arya said. Arya ran to him for a last hug. "Put down the sword first," Jon warned her, laughing. She set it aside almost shyly and showered him with kisses. - Jon, AGoT

Then there are the other supporting characters.

There's Tom Bertram who's like Robb, the eldest son and heir who treats Fanny like a little sister.

Edmund was uniformly kind himself; and she had nothing worse to endure on the part of Tom than that sort of merriment which a young man of seventeen will always think fair with a child of ten. He was just entering into life, full of spirits, and with all the liberal dispositions of an eldest son, who feels born only for expense and enjoyment. His kindness to his little cousin was consistent with his situation and rights: he made her some very pretty presents, and laughed at her. - MP

There's a Mrs. Norris who is very similarly to Septa Mordane in her treatment of Fanny Vs the Bertram daughters, always putting down Fanny to uplift the other girls - similar to how the Septa drags Arya down to uplift Sansa. This has a detrimental effect on the Bertram girls just like it does for Sansa - encouraging them to be mean to Fanny in the same way Sansa/Jeyne mock Arya.

The Bertram sisters mock Fanny for not being good at music or drawing and is told by their aunt Norris that this indeed makes Fanny stupid.

“Yes, I know there is, till I am seventeen. But I must tell you another thing of Fanny, so odd and so stupid. Do you know, she says she does not want to learn either music or drawing.” “To be sure, my dear, that is very stupid indeed, and shows a great want of genius and emulation. But, all things considered, I do not know whether it is not as well that it should be so, for, though you know (owing to me) your papa and mama are so good as to bring her up with you, it is not at all necessary that she should be as accomplished as you are;—on the contrary, it is much more desirable that there should be a difference.”

And as Austen succinctly and rightly puts it, this sort of encouragement and mentorship from their aunt Norris leads to a lack of humility and generosity in the sisters.

Such were the counsels by which Mrs. Norris assisted to form her nieces’ minds; and it is not very wonderful that, with all their promising talents and early information, they should be entirely deficient in the less common acquirements of self-knowledge, generosity and humility. - MP

We see this in AGoT Sansa - the lack of self-awareness, of humility and generosity in the way she treats Arya, Jon, the small folk, Mycah and even Jeyne Poole. Septa Mordane's thoughts and opinions have had a negative effect on ALL her pupils. It's encouraged Arya's low self-esteem and Sansa's vanity and classism.

And while Septa Mordane, Sansa and Catelyn always put Sansa on a higher pedestal than Arya in terms of perfection, intelligence and beauty, it's Jon Snow who considers Arya to be clever and pretty.

"What could you want to see?" Sansa said, annoyed. She had been thrilled by the invitation, and her stupid sister was going to ruin everything, just as she'd feared. "It's all just fields and farms and holdfasts." "Hodor!" Sansa yelled. "You ought to marry Hodor, you're just like him, stupid and hairy and ugly!" She wrenched away from her sister's hand, stormed into her bedchamber, and barred the door behind her. - Sansa, AGoT

But what if Arya was not there to be saved? What if Lady Melisandre's flames had told it true? Could his sister truly have escaped such captors? How would she do that? Arya was always quick and clever, but in the end she's just a little girl, and Roose Bolton is not the sort who would be careless with a prize of such great worth. - Jon, ADwD

"Good." She had never cared if she was pretty, even when she was stupid Arya Stark. Only her father had ever called her that. Him, and Jon Snow, sometimes. Her mother used to say she could be pretty if she would just wash and brush her hair and take more care with her dress, the way her sister did. To her sister and sister's friends and all the rest, she had just been Arya Horseface. - Arya, ADwD

And despite aunt Norris and the Bertram girls finding Fanny to be deficient and stupid, Edmund thinks of her as clever and capable.

“To be sure, my dear, that is very stupid indeed, and shows a great want of genius and emulation. - Aunt Norris, MP

Kept back as she was by everybody else, his single support could not bring her forward; but his attentions were otherwise of the highest importance in assisting the improvement of her mind, and extending its pleasures. He knew her to be clever, to have a quick apprehension as well as good sense, and a fondness for reading, which, properly directed, must be an education in itself. - Edmund, MP

Fanny has a lot of love for Edmund, a mixture of gratitude and affection.

In return for such services she loved him better than anybody in the world except William: her heart was divided between the two. She regarded her cousin as an example of everything good and great, as possessing worth which no one but herself could ever appreciate, and as entitled to such gratitude from her as no feelings could be strong enough to pay. Her sentiments towards him were compounded of all that was respectful, grateful, confiding, and tender. - MP

Edmund and Fanny consider themselves brother and sister, love each other that way and there is a strong emotion there between them.

"By eight in the morning Edmund was in the house. The girls heard his entrance from above, and Fanny went down. The idea of immediately seeing him, with the knowledge of what he must be suffering, brought back all her own first feelings. He so near her, and in misery. She was ready to sink as she entered the parlour. He was alone, and met her instantly; and she found herself pressed to his heart with only these words, just articulate, 'My Fanny, my only sister; my only comfort now!' She could say nothing; nor for some minutes could he say more." - MP

“What do you know of my heart, priestess? What do you know of my sister? Bring her home, Mance., and now I am about to save four thousand of your free folk. You owe me this one little girl. - Jon, ADwD

Despite growing up together, Edmund and Fanny do part as Edmund goes to college and Fanny stays at home. They write to each other and keep in touch, which Jon and Arya cannot do. And while going through their harrowing journeys (Arya) and climbing the ladder to Lord Commander (Jon) they miss each other dearly and want to see each other again.

There are of course differences. I find Jon's love and admiration/respect for Arya to be greater than Edmund's for Fanny. Jon thinks Arya is perfect as is while Edmund sees himself as helping Fanny grow as a person. All the girls Jon admires or falls in love with mirror Arya in terms of personality, looks and physicality (Ygritte, Alys, Val). Jon straight up compares Ygritte and Alys to Arya. In contrast Edmund falls for Mary Crawford who is the opposite of Fanny and where Fanny and Mary are compared with each other in the book. Jon is searching for an Arya in every girl he meets, right from ACoK, while Edmund only acknowledges that Fanny is the person for him at the very end. And then there's the difference in Arya and Fanny, where Arya has more in common with an Elizabeth Bennet than with Fanny herself. And Jon is no Edmund.

So yeah. I remember reading somewhere that GRRM has read Jane Austen. So these similarities are fun even if they were not intended or are wholly unrelated.

[ultfreakme]

I broke my silence. Nah, I need someone to talk to me about JonJay, since they are still underrated by the fandom. Like, they started being hated out of nowhere. That nonsense about Damian hating Jay, about what if Jon showed Jay Damian, he would immediately reject it. Demi is literally a fan of Jay and his blog, he literally contributed to Jay and Jon getting together at the 2022 Pride, Jay calls Damian by name and basically sees him without a mask in his real guise, which suggests that he trusts him just enough to show his real personality. He praises him, well, to many of his friends and even relatives (Grayson). This is complete nonsense that the fandom made up is killing me. People also say that Jay is not registered. What? Like, yes, I would also like to know more about him, but this does not mean that he does not have a personality. The entire plot of the comic revolves around him and his story, how in this case can he not have his own character and personality?( like, we literally see that he is a very brave and smart young man who knows how to make difficult decisions. He is also quite daring, he won’t go into his pocket for words, he can express everything he thinks. Jay is very smart and cunning, he knows how to achieve his own and will stand by his interests to the last.) It really scares me how people either don’t want to understand his character. I also saw someone talking about how Jon might cheat on Jay and Nya because the author of her comic released a post about the SuperDreamer (that's what the ship is called). What? In terms of, this bro refused to kiss his boyfriend on the another universe simply because it's not his Jay and people seriously believe that Jon will cheat with another person when he's literally loyal to only one and we're literally shown that, well, he's incapable of cheating on Jay because so much loves him. This is so stupid. Yes, after all, in one of the comics Jon calls a day with Jay “Mental Health Day.” I don’t understand what’s wrong with people. And it seems to me that no matter what happens, Jay will always remain Jon’s main and important love interest. My beloved boys deserve more attention and love from the fandom. I hope that someday they will grow to realize that they are perfect for each other and only at this moment will I find peace

Anon, Anon you are so correct and I love you and I have been sitting with this frustration since 2021 and I am tired.

I know exactly why people don't give Jay a chance:

Xenophobia

Racism

Biases against actual queer people

It gets in the way of the fanon ship; Damian x Jon

A good 99% of the hate I see comes from Damian and Jon shippers who were, for some reason under the impression that Jon being bisexual means he will date Damian....who is not only 3 years younger than him but also just barely out of middle school while Jon is in college.

Most people are still also attached to Super Sons comics, and have yet to come to terms with the fact that Jon is aged up, he is not getting aged down, and Super Sons as it once was is not coming back. So they don't bother reading SOKE or AOSJK or any Jon appearance that occurs where it's JUST Jon (because if you've noticed, the jon kent tag is all damian because they see Jon as Damian's accessory and love interest and not an independent character).

Super Sons mischaracterized both Damian and Jon egregiously while being racist and sexist towards Talia (one very easy example; Damian hates going to school because he's far surpassed that academic level & really only needs school for socialization. Why would Damian who was older than Jon before, willingly go to a grade 3 times below his own where Jon lives, where he needs to get to by helicopter??). Reading that alone means people don't understand Jon, Damian, or Talia(or anyone really).

So when they learn that Damian actually LIKES Jay, that he liked Jay first and enough to introduce him to Dick and potentially a bunch of other batfam characters, they just can't stand it. How dare Damian get in the way of fans shipping him with his best friend(who is 17/18)??? Wdym Damian is happily dating a girl named Nika aka Flatline! Now let's be sexist to the 14 year old girl and call her evil manipulative bitch!!!

Why on Earth would Jon like Jay??? He's not Damian!

And that's another thing; Jay is not Damian and that is all these haters need to destroy Jay and dismiss him. This isn't about character arcs, or canon, or storytelling. It's about being mad that fanon isn't real.

I used to try to get them to at least give SOKE a chance. I wanted to be polite and have a proper discussion but things got overtly racist. I've had people tell me that Jay is seducing Jon, he is evil, he is a criminal who has no morals, he isn't "Asian enough". Me and a bunch of twitter mutuals experienced actual racism, towards ourselves, when talking to these people. I had to delete my account because it was affecting my mental health and I couldn't take it. We also experienced lots of biphobic and homophobic takes (especially about the pink hair which was very fun for a bisexual Asian with pink hair at the time). About how Jay is some "kpop knock off" or "creep" because he and Jon shared a fully consensual kiss. Like yes Karen explain to me how the immigrant Asian kid who just wants to save his country from a colonizer is evil because he kissed a white boy. Do tell me about how he's "mind controlling" Jon to love him. We didn't even have those words thrown around when Saturn Girl legit mind-controlled Jon. But of course! It's because she's white and no one actually read that Legion run. It can pass for heterosexual so who cares!

And the cheating thing grinds my gears it actually makes me want to go scream.

SURE! Let's have the bisexual character cheat! You know let's just forget about how bi people are already stereotyped as sluts and cheaters. Or that Jon's Superman and he straight up said "I'm not going to cheat on Jay."

I think Nicole Maines isn't going to touch JayJon, her run with Dreamer ends around the same time as or before Pride Month and we are getting a pride month jayjon story(unconfirmed yet officially but a cover artist is hinting that's the case). If she does though, if this story is signed-off and it happens through cheating I'm just gonna have to stop reading DC.

I think cheating plots are idiotic, especially with Superfam. Their whole thing is "truth justice better tomorrow." They strive to do good and be kind and honest. Wtf am I taking away if you so severely hurt a person you claim to love? I think they are a lazy and a cheap way to generate bad drama.

If you want drama and for SuperDreamer to happen, at least make JayJon have a proper break up. Making Jon cheat would assassinate his character and Dreamer's because NIA KNOWS JAY. In the story Nia's appearing, she's being sent in to attack Jay's country. It's not even a character flaw atp it's just you two are being hypocritical and choosing to hurt a friend who's done nothing but be kind(lest we forget, Jay was cleaning up Jon's reputation and lost his secret identity FOR JON. He's the one who stayed calm while Jon was about to fight when Nia first showed up).

If Nia is chill with Superman cheating with her on Jay and is simultaneously attacking his country(though it is under Waller's pressure), I will simply leave. What's the point? It's not like POC characters in Superfam get enough respect anyways, especially the Asian ones (I see you Kong Kenan, I SEE YOU). The Steels are fortunately getting more time but that happened after decades and decades (and I've still got no news on Nat and Traci 13 DC GET IT TOGETHER, Nat still doesn't get enough focus imo). I sound really mean towards Dreamer rn but I actually really enjoy the Jon and Nia friendship. I just fucking hate cheaters though, those kind of plots are always exhausting and ill-thought out and the characters become garbage. Because like, you're a superhero, a symbol of goodness and striving to do better. Cheating is actively taking a decision to hurt a person in a deeply personal way. Why would I believe a single thing you say about "truth" when you can't even give that to someone close to you?

I think we should just let the haters stew on their nonsense and find people who create a positive fandom space. My block list for blogs and tags is a mile long. If they can't see how well-written and balanced Jon and Jay are for each other, that's a loss for them and they may....continue to seethe or whatever it is they do.

If you aren't on the supertruth discord server yet or know of it, I'd highly recommend joining!! It's very fun

This was a mess of a response and I let my emotions get too far away from me I am so sorry. I really understand you Anon <3<3 Hugs and comfort from me!!

[rise-my-angel]

I love how you phrase it. I criticise ships for being toxic and I get told "it's fiction. Stop being a puritan" and really it's a criticism of them striving for such a harmful thing to happen to the characters. "Oh well it doesn't reflect on my character". I mean, as an example, who wants to see Robb die the way that he did? Nobody sits there and goes, "oh boy, i'm going to watch the most soal destroying scene in Game if Thrones history and I'm going to enjoy it". Nobody enjoys that scene. It's so good exactly because of how much nobody enjoys it. But it's the tropification of such media that makes people think they can list off their demands for the story and expect everything to happen, playing out like a map that gives them a pass through every hurdle for this stuff, so they think they should want these fucked up dynamics to happen, but they also don't want the soul crushing that is involved in those scenarios, like Jon realising he fucked his aunt. They just want the drama without the consequence. Like... Guys you're doing media wrong. I don't know any other way to put it.

I am of the opinion, that there is nothing wrong with taking your own morality, ethics and life experiences, to better connect with a story.

The reason we tell each other stories, is so we can truly bond with one another about the complexities of human life through fictional stories. We do not have to worry about perfectly related to it, because it was never real. But parts of it will always be real to someone in some way. We will always connect to characters through our own lives and morals and it is important that we respect that.

Enjoying dark stories or disturbing content does not make you a bad person, only when you let those disturbing contents dictate how you see the real world is it bad, not the other way around. We can enjoy a show when characters go through bad things they do not deserve, because if it is well written, filmed, acted, it puts you in that scenario and make you root for that character to escape it and get better. It's good not because of the bad, but because we all hope for them to escape the bad before it's too late.

I like that it took a series of traumatic events for Jaime Lannister to reach the point where he was capable of turning his life into something meaningful. But I do not enjoy watching him suffer, nor do I wish it took that trauma in the first place. I like that he fought against a horrible situation, but that doesn't mean I wanted Jaime's hand to be cut off in the first place, or for him to be humiliated and beaten into the mud and mocked. I like watching it, because I hate what is happening. I want to see him get up and fight back, and watching him go through that journey is worth it for where he ends up on the other side.

I like the concept of Jon getting to the exact point Jaime Lannister did, of sacrificing what is considered honorable, to do the right thing. Killing a Queen he is loyal to, to protect his family, his people, and to protect the other millions of people in Westeros from suffering the same fate he just watched one million people brutally perish from. I like the realization that as much as his father raised him to value the right things, Jon comes to his own conclusion that Jaime sacrificed ever having that image in order to do the right thing, instead of the honorable one. That your loyalty and oaths mean nothing if you just stand by and watch as millions of men, women and children burn alive.

I hate the journey that took him there. And not in the same way as Jaime. The journey Jon took was traumatic to the point he will never truly recover. Sleeping with a woman who has kept him hostage for weeks if not months, only to soon after find out that he was related to her in the exact same way he previously thought he was related to his mother? Jon likely would never be capable of a normal relationship after that, he would be traumatized for life and be extremely messed up about it. Likely in the same way that Theons torture and mutilation left him unable to pursue a normal relationship after that trauma.

I do not think anything a shipper could've gotten out of that relationship is worth the harm that it caused. I think, that it is reasonable for me to use my own sense of morality, and my own life experience of relationship based sexual trauma, and determine that it is unhealthy to WANT to see Jon go through all of that, just to get to the few parks that were "romantic". It was not worth it in Jons eyes, so why should it be worth it in mine?

Jon Snow is one of my favourite characters, and I shouldn't want to make him suffer and feel trauma just to see the outcome I want. I don't connect to Jon because he is a prop for my entertainment, I connect to Jon because of my own life experiances make me feel like I relate to his struggles. Why would I ever ENJOY or LOOK FORWARD TO his suffering, just to get him to an end goal I like?

I'd rather Jon not reach that end goal, if the only way is to put him through life changing trauma that he likely will never truly recover from. No one should want that, and they don't. But they refuse to acknowledge that in order to get to that goal the way it did, Jon had to go through those things. Jon had to be put in a complicated amount of pain and suffering that ultimately did not improve his life. But they do not want to look at it. So they ignore the reality of what is being shown, and focus on the small moments that they can ship.

This happened with Ygritte too, they share a scene of banter when south of the wall and it is the only proof they have to point that it was all worth it, when Jon clearly was actually suffering the entire time.

Small pockets of good are not proof it is all good. Abuse is a cycle, and part of that cycle is there are good moments. Moments that remind you why you like this person, and they are by design so that you are not pushed too far too often and decide to leave them. The good does not wash out the bad. Nor the bad, the good. It all adds up to a full image of was this worth enjoying for the pain it put Jon through, and my answer for both his relationships is no.

I don't get to just ignore the suffering it takes to get somewhere for a moment or two of ship worthy content. I can't ignore it and I won't ignore it. Because in my life, I would not be able to ignore the suffering I was put through, so I will not ignore Jons, because my ability to relate to his trauma is part of why I am attached to him. So I do not consider so much harm to be worth such small outcomes when the outcome in the end of the big picture, was just more harm.

Fiction is meant to be related to through your own life and morals, that is how we connect to characters and stories. Because of what in our own lives do we see in the fiction, and how that makes us feel. So I think disregarding the fact that certain ships are the result of putting a character through unfair and unnecessary harm, is not okay behavior.

If you're someone who is not bothered by the trauma Jon goes through in a Jonerys ship, that is your experience of that ship, but you should recognize, that the harm does exist. And you should not want that harm to happen to that character willingly, or turn a blind eye to the harm just to pretend everything is alright and always was.

I respect the art of storytelling to much to pretend that not caring about the harm a character goes through, doesn't somewhat reflect on who you are as a person. It doesn't say everything about you, but I think it says enough.

I think Jonerys is a ship that harms Jon more then it could ever benefit him, and I think it is unfair to the character he is, to want him to go through that inevitable harm just because you enjoy what little good there was, if there even was any in the first place. Because the harm is there, even if you pretend you're not looking at the harm, it's still there, and you know it.

You are just choosing to pretend it's not, to make yourself feel justified.

[witheredoffherwitch]

Why do you find Alysmond compelling at all? After he's with Alys, he seems to lose all motivation. He betrays his family, and without thinking rushes after Daemon - ultimately resulting in his demise. It's strange for fans of Aemond to ship them together as it appears that Alys is the cause of Aemond's downfall.

Hi nonnie, thanks for being polite in the asks.

First of all, Aemond was spiralling long before he met Alys. He was famously declared a kinslayer - and therefore 'cursed in the eyes of both men and gods'. Aemond's actions not only jumpstarted the civil war, but also resulted in his own king to lose their heir --- AND left his queen on the brink of madness, ultimately costing their faction a skilled dragonrider. We see Aemond making it to Harrenhal only after he becomes Prince Regent... and by then much has passed - and in many ways, the claims of his role being his brother's greatest asset was somehow looking more and more dubious.

Many fans consider one of the Alysmond characters to be a 'victim,' and that may or may not be true. However, based on our observations of the show, it's unlikely that Aemond would take her by force. We can assume that Aemond is someone who has little to no interest in taking bedmates or lovers, and on top of that, we also learn that he was a victim of unwanted sexual advances when his brother took him to a brothel for his thirteenth nameday. This "we men have no taste for depravities" Aemond doesn't scream as someone who would rape or even coerce any woman into an unwanted sexual relationship. Moreover, his distaste for Aegon's proclivities further demonstrates why he initially sees his brother to be inferior or, in his own words, 'a drunken wastrel who's never taken half a interest in his birthright'. Instead, he is the only male in the Targaryen family to show any kindness and understanding towards women in his life - namely, Alicent and Helaena. Contrary to what many accuse him on this platform, Aemond's character has not once uttered any derogatory term against his half-sister. Instead, we have only seen two men using the word 'cunt' - and those two are Daemon and Criston!

Now coming to the subject of Alys - she is introduced as a bastard of House Strong. Many fans mistakenly think that all bastards are treated the same way as Jon Snow or Strong bastards. But there is little evidence to believe that Alys was 1) treated right by other members of House Strong, or 2) even considered a kin by her own blood. Bastards were considered shameful to any great house, and they served as reminders of the lords/ladies who had broken their marital vows by pursuing intimate relationships outside their marriage. It's a massive taint on their honor. In addition to that, Alys was a wet-nurse after having stillborns - and there is no evidence to suggest that she was anything more than a servant serving under House Strong. Furthermore, she was believed by many to be a witch which will not yield many positive engagements for her in this world of Westeros.

Thirdly, coming to the question of why I find them compelling - well, LOOK AT THEM! A kinslayer and his witch queen coming together to make a bloody mess in their way. These two are every gothic fan's wet dream. A bastard witch who is reviled by her own kin AND the kinslayer with a conqueror's dragon who is feared by many around him! Most Alysmond fans see these two people - who are an unlikely couple in every other sense - come together (for even a brief period) to relieve the loneliness that has plagued them both in their lives! And if we go by Aemond's characterisation in the show, the couple could be shown as two misunderstood characters who might seek solace in each other's company.. and can find a common ground as social outcasts. (This is obviously a speculation and should not be considered as a gospel truth)

Now the world of asoiaf is riddled with many problematic ships, however I would argue that Alysmond is definitely one of the tamer ones. Alys is older while Aemond is the prince, and although some say she groomed him, it should not be forgotten that in this very patriarchal world, he holds absolute power over her. Unlike his first sexual encounter, he is not only a willing partner but is believed to be the one who had initiated it. On the other hand, I have already reiterated why I believe Aemond may not be the kind to rape her; moreover, Alys is not shown as some hapless damsel without any choice -- she becomes his closest confidante, to the point that Team Black holds her accountable for leading him to his death!

At last, although you may think Aemond lost his entire purpose after meeting Alys and ended up 'betraying' his family, a lot of fans however believe that his purpose changed from beating Rhaenyra to protecting his family - which he did by standing up to Daemon. Although Aemond's death was a great setback for the Green faction, Daemon's death likewise eliminated the biggest obstacle for his family, Alys and their unborn child.

[im-not-a-l0ser]

So a while ago I did a poll on who Mark Chasity should date

For some reason, Ted Spankoffski won???? With Gary Goldstein (Attourney at Law) in second place.

Anyway, Officer Bailey made third, and I'd like to make my case for him and my opinion on the rest of the relationships.

I think that Officer Bailey and Mark Chasity would be so cute because they'd balance. Bailey is intense in an overcompensating way, and Mark Chasity is a sweetboi. Like it's such 😠👬😸 and I'm here for it.

I think that they could have a nice, domestic relationship, that Mark could make Bailey open up and be vulnerable.

Now, if you're uncomfortable with shipping characters played by the same guy, worry not! Many of us have decided that the cop in TGWDM (the guy who's not Sam lol) could easily be Bailey. And if that helps, do that. Because I love the idea of them.

Opinions of everyone else under the cut.

Okay, we're gonna talk about how these relationships would go, and I'm gonna go in decending order of who won. Which means:

Ted Spankoffski- I think that maybe it'd be a gay awakening hook-up? Nothing long term for them. Mark doesn't deserve that, honestly.

Gary Goldstein- This I think could be a longer term relationship, where they meet bc of some legal trouble or something like that, and they date for a few months, but Mark is overall neglected by Gary's busy worklife. They have a civil breakup, and maybe even a comforting relationship if they need a shoulder to cry on.

Offer Bailey- I already said, but I will continue to say: Bailey is someone Mark would consider separating Karen for. Someone he can just be with, and who keeps his life interesting without being abusive or rude to him, and who will be emotionally vulnerable with him, even if it's probably only with him. I think of of ever broke up, it would be so bittersweet. I think it would be Mark picking his religion and family over Bailey, and Bailey holding back tears while supporting him because he knows that his family means so much to him and since Bailey may have wanted something like that for so long (imagine him with a little girl omg) he'd understand even more

No one, he will never be happy- Sad, but realistic.

Dan Reynolds (with Action News, weekdays at 10 pm)- He's someone I highkey put to fill slots, so I'm surprised he made 5th. But like... I can sort of see it? Like, I feel like one would flirt with the other, and the other would either not notice or ignore them.

Bill Woodward (tied with Gerald Monroe)- I have mentioned how I think Bill is straight, and how it makes me sad bc I like him and Paul, but it's prolly one-sided. But it would be cute if he were queer. Someone said they met at church, which I love, but I just think Bill is (sadly) straight.

Gerald Monroe (tied with Bill Woodward)- I feel like this would be more of a similar relationship that he'd have with Max’s dad; a not-even-friends with benefits that's out if the public eye because they are bigots who happen to be attracted to men. They would both not treat Mark like a person, and while he might even enjoy that for a short period of time, he would realise that it's unbalanced and would eventually leave like he deserves.

Kyle's Dad- So, we don't know Kyle's Dad, I just thought it was a silly, cute idea. Besides Bailey, it's either Kyle or Jason's dad that I could see, just based on how nice their kids are when given the freedom.

General John MacNamara- Okay, I get it, it's a cute idea. Uh, Jon McNamara is married though and I don't wanna fuck that up.

Other (Put in Tags), AKA President Howard Goodman apparently- I think this is silly, but I actually like it. Especially if he is with Mark during/after his meeting with Wiggly. Because hooo boy, imagine that conversation. A stuck, frozen, breaking down Howie calling his long distance hubby and telling him 'I just met a dark god and almost died,' and Mark doesn't want to belittle his experience or preach in a moment of absolute madness, so he just doesn't know what to do? I see the appeal 100%

[windriverdelta]

On the Grand Northern Conspiracy

Somehow I have been thinking a lot about the Grand Northern Conspiracy, an ASOIAF fan theory that posits that in AFFC/ADWD the lords of the North and Riverlands are plotting to install Jon Snow as King in the North. Well, no time like present to write a comment.

TL;DR I find it extremely implausible and would very surprised if TWOW featured anything even resembling that. It's a far-fetched conspiracy theory.

First of all, as other people like @turtle-paced have pointed out, there are lots of barriers to communication between the supposed conspirators and no evidence that they could coordinate their actions. Now, there is evidence in Arya's ASOS chapters that the Brotherhood Without Banners has contacts to the Riverlords and one wonders if Jaime Lannister in AFFC is being deliberately steered to Brienne, but that doesn't mean the Northerners can do the same.

Second, where is the set-up for the Northern lords using Stannis like that? Late Walder Frey is amply established as a traitor, opportunist and oathbreaker two books before the Red Wedding, there is no foreshadowing at all for Mormont, mountain clans etc. This isn't Game of Thrones, spectacular betrayals do not come out of thin air in ASOIAF. In this context, it's worth noting that foreshadowing in ASOIAF usually takes the form of a few unambiguous meaningful events, not a lot of very ambiguous little things that can interpreted in multiple ways like the infamous "Corn Code"

Three, Jon Snow does not work very well as a fulcrum for such a conspiracy. Ignoring for a moment that nobody has bothered getting his buy-in for such a plot (what if he deems it dishonourable and sleazy and ices out all the participants?), there is no indication that any physical copy of Robb's will survived the Red Wedding. Remember, the various lords and ladies are referred to as its "witnesses", and most of them are now prisoners of the Freys. Look at it from a character's perspective: Two lords who somehow survived the Red Wedding, claiming that Robb wanted to make Jon king. Why would anyone believe them? Especially Jon Snow, who knows in ADWD that Robb was killed by his own men, he has no reason at all to trust Maege or Galbart. And without the will, Jon Snow would just be an usurper and deserter from the Night's Watch.

Narrative-wise, I don't see much foreshadowing of Jon being king in the north in the main series - all so-called "foreshadowing" I've seen are ambiguous allusions or far-fetched interpretations. I see no thematic or character purpose, either - I tend to think that R+L=J, the three dragons and his assassination lead into him being a dragonrider and fighter against the Others. In my opinion, the political side of the Northern storyline is Sansa and Stannis' job. And there is plenty of potential conflict around them without the need for a king in the north scheme.

But the big sticking point is that the actions of many of the supposed conspirators don't fit with theory. Just to cite a few examples:

Lady Stoneheart is not crowning Jon with anything but a noose, not in a million years, there is no evidence whatsoever that she's anything but a revenge zombie.

Wyman Manderly is entrusting Rickon Stark to consummate Stannis loyalist Davos Seaworth, which makes no sense at all if he planned to betray Stannis later - why would he risk Rickon becoming Stannis' hostage?

We have no reason to believe that Barbrey Dustin is lying about not liking the Starks - for one thing, Dustin troops are noticeable by their absence for the War of Five Kings, true to her word. She'll probably jump ship if Roose falls, but that's not the same thing as becoming a Stark restorationist. In fact, I could see her supporting Stannis to take the Starks down a peg.

People keep citing Lyanna Mormont's defiant letter to Stannis as proof of Bear Island not being truly on his side, but not only is she (as Jon points out) not in charge of House Mormont, we later see Alysane marching with Stannis. She almost certainly is in contact with Maege given her comments to Asha about her family; I doubt that this is a right hand vs left hand situation. I am not even sure that she has much of a retinue, either - the problem with Rickon above may exist here too. Finally, recall that in AGOT Maege challenged Robb, telling him that he was so young as to have no business giving her commands. The Mormonts don't let anyone boss them around, that doesn't mean that they are Frey Lite.

In short, this theory requires lots of poorly foreshadowed OOC behaviour to enable a rather pointless political ploy that doesn't fit the narrative very well.

[magpod-confessions]

hi. so because i'm normal about jonathan sims and jmart. um.

i really like jmart. i think there could have been MUCH better buildup, but... ultimately it's a very cute ship. i think the appeal, yeah, is a lot that it's just canon. but.

they're both deeply broken people. jon wasn't loved enough. his grandmother tried her best, but he was never cuddled, never read to, never had a chance to *be a little kid*, really. and martin was never loved. maybe he convinced himself he was just never loved the right way, that his mum just didn't know how to show it because he was so *insufferable* and *incompetant*, but no matter the lies he tells himself, martin was not shown love by his mother.

and then they meet. and martin gives and gives and gives because that's all he knows. and jon has no idea how to receive because he never really had anything to receive. and jon's coping mechanism, with that unknown situation, is to reinforce his emotional walls. martin does not know how to stop giving. so they don't work at this point, not at all.

and then jon's emotional walls come tumbling down. well, moreso that they were violently destroyed, with prentiss and all. jon has no support system!!! tim hates him because he's a fucking *stalker*, martin... well... he can't rely on martin, of all people. and sasha... he never knew her too well, but she's acting strange. so jon and martin don't work together at that point, romantically, i think partially because jon won't let it.

in big part, jmart is built on mutual trauma (NOT traumabonding!! i know it's used that way in podcast, but that's not the correct definition) and ... martin being pretty much the only person jon has left. of course, there's basira and melanie and georgie, but they don't *get it*. they didn't go through everything jon did alongside him. sure, martin didn't either, but martin has been there the whole time.

it's partially a relationship of proximity, partially shared trauma, but i do think a lot of it is genuine care for each other (even if that care stems from the former two reasons).

anyways. theyre really cute. tma could have been just as good without it, but---and im saying this as someone who typically despises most romance in media---i really adore them and their dynamic. it opens up so many doors for both character- and self-exploration.

martin learning to love without sacrificing himself. jon learning to love openly, period. explorations of trust and how mutual trauma that affected people in different ways can shape them, etc etc etc. and of course, this is all in fics and in my own mind, because . theyre dead . (i wont accept any ending but that, honestly. theyre not Somewhere Else to me). but. it's nice. they mean a lot to me as characters and as people and as a pair. thumbs up.

and some jon ranting!! because i. admit. finally. that i might be a bit of a jon kinnie.

jon doubts himself, constantly, unless his decision is completely impulsive (ex. the coffin). he can't *let* himself feel, fully, because as a child it was always annoying/obnoxious, or too much, or wrong in some ambiguous, nebulous way.

he's out of touch with himself emotionally. it's... not so much that he doesn't get emotions, it's moreso that he's repressed the majority of his own so intensely that he has a hard time dealing with others' emotions because he's not too sure what it's supposed to feel like without a heavy flavouring of shame.

he's read a lot of books. he knows, in theory, what sadness or romantic love or anger or excitement feels like---and occasionally in practice, when the repression and 'compartmentalisation' (bottling it up) becomes too much and it all boils over---but he has a hard time relating those hypothetical and heat-of-the-moment feelings to actual, real life people.

he struggles with empathy, severely. partially an autistic thing, partially a trauma response. yknow. he's genuinely well-meaning when it comes to comforting those he cares about, but he's not sure of the right thing to say because of how severely that muscle has atrophied. he was never taught that with his grandmother and her neglect (and yes, no matter what he says on tape, it was emotional neglect) and then not having very many friends... he missed those prime developmental stages as a child.

he never empathised with book characters, i don't think. he was always the observer, never really fully putting himself in the role of the protagonist. he definitely used books as an escapist coping mechanism, but it wasn't in a visiting-this-fictional-world way, it was more of a losing-himself-in-the-story way, if that makes sense. there was always a sense of detachment. reading was an *in between* of his life and the life of the protagonist.

he struggles with his and others' feelings because, from his perspective, his emotions are uniquely shameful, uniquely embarrassing, and uniquely *harmful* to other people. so, he represses them, and doesn't let himself feel them unless they're 'useful'. and then, when he can't apply this ideology to others' emotions, he has no way to deal with them. he freezes up because this is a situation in which he has no real experience in, and, as a child who was punished for behaving autistically *wrong* ---whether by his peers or his grandmother---he's scared to make a wrong move.

he sees himself as a person who is uniquely capable of harm. other people can hurt other people, sure, but jon can hurt them in a *special* way, a *worse* way, because he is a fundamentally wrong, bad person.

yeah👍

.🗣️

I AM EATING THIS I agree with this yea

[ao3feed-jonmartin]

Falling Asleep

read it on AO3 at https://ift.tt/ECRplyb by JWordss “Oh, uh well you don’t care but my hair is completely fucked up- Uh- Messed up!” “Martin, it looks good.” “You’re just being nice.” “No it looks hot- Well no wait, how do I put this, it’s a really attractive haircut and I like it.” The skin around his eyes and nose turned ever so slightly red. “And I was just asking.” Oh god, he used the first word that came to mind. If he had continued with his original thought it could have been some sort of violation. He had no attraction to his coworker, he was simply not thinking, and it was clear no one was thinking in that room because both of them had seemed to have gone brain dead after what he said clicked completely between both of them. - Them accidentally being assholes to each other over and over. Words: 1627, Chapters: 1/?, Language: English Fandoms: The Magnus Archives (Podcast) Rating: Not Rated Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply Categories: M/M Characters: Martin Blackwood, Jonathan "Jon" Sims | The Archivist, Sasha James Relationships: Martin Blackwood/Jonathan "Jon" Sims | The Archivist Additional Tags: Fluff without Plot, Enemies and Lovers, because its s1 jmart so yeah, Falling asleep on the job??? How romantic..., Asexual Jonathan "Jon" Sims | The Archivist, threw out some canon for FLUFF, Light Angst, Sasha and Tim are shipping them, S1, coping from mag 200, Misunderstandings read it on AO3 at https://ift.tt/ECRplyb

[greenbloods]

18, 19, 34

18 see earlier ask!

19 A theory you’ve adopted as canon

the valyrians fucked the dragons in order to control them theory is always a good one (anon from a week ago if youre reading this i swear ill get to your ask about this). also that in the Meereen arc that the green grace is the Harpy that leads the sons of the harpy from the shadows to resist dany's rule.

i havent seen a lot of people gunning for this one but larys is a greenseer to meee at least in the books him being in harrenhal growing close to the isle of faces being brother to alys rivers constantly being associated with rats. the parallels to bloodraven. the strongs being first men riverlanders just like the blackwoods. even in the show first talking to alicent in the godswood (a place associated with the old gods) and being aware of the harrenhal bloodcurse. he is a greenseeeer

34 What’s something people get wrong about your favorite character?

hmm my favorite characters are probably cat brienne theon and stannis. i wont even start thinking about the things they say about catelyn in other corners of the internet. people in the lords year 2024 will be like ugh catelyns such a bitch for not liking jon as if her coldness around jon isnt a sublimation of all her resentment of ned being externalized into this one child so that she can love her husband that she was forced to marry without the resentment eating at her mind. sorry shes acting unreasonable about thinking her husband cheated on her and putting her in a situation where shes not even allowed to confront him about it 🙄.

fortunately this site (at least my mutuals <3) are catelyn brienne and theon understanders they have phds in all those characters for all i know. for stannis i feel like people shy away from him because of all the stannis the mannis content and the redditors making sigma gigachad edits of him. yes he sucks <33 however have you considered he was cressens sad sullen boy, son he never had, the one that was most unloved, the forgotten middle child, who watched his parents ship drown and nursed an injured goshawk back to health and made sure renly always had enough to eat when they were sieged by the tyrells? have you considered i love him??