#grand northern conspiracy

[windriverdelta]

On the Grand Northern Conspiracy

Somehow I have been thinking a lot about the Grand Northern Conspiracy, an ASOIAF fan theory that posits that in AFFC/ADWD the lords of the North and Riverlands are plotting to install Jon Snow as King in the North. Well, no time like present to write a comment.

TL;DR I find it extremely implausible and would very surprised if TWOW featured anything even resembling that. It's a far-fetched conspiracy theory.

First of all, as other people like @turtle-paced have pointed out, there are lots of barriers to communication between the supposed conspirators and no evidence that they could coordinate their actions. Now, there is evidence in Arya's ASOS chapters that the Brotherhood Without Banners has contacts to the Riverlords and one wonders if Jaime Lannister in AFFC is being deliberately steered to Brienne, but that doesn't mean the Northerners can do the same.

Second, where is the set-up for the Northern lords using Stannis like that? Late Walder Frey is amply established as a traitor, opportunist and oathbreaker two books before the Red Wedding, there is no foreshadowing at all for Mormont, mountain clans etc. This isn't Game of Thrones, spectacular betrayals do not come out of thin air in ASOIAF. In this context, it's worth noting that foreshadowing in ASOIAF usually takes the form of a few unambiguous meaningful events, not a lot of very ambiguous little things that can interpreted in multiple ways like the infamous "Corn Code"

Three, Jon Snow does not work very well as a fulcrum for such a conspiracy. Ignoring for a moment that nobody has bothered getting his buy-in for such a plot (what if he deems it dishonourable and sleazy and ices out all the participants?), there is no indication that any physical copy of Robb's will survived the Red Wedding. Remember, the various lords and ladies are referred to as its "witnesses", and most of them are now prisoners of the Freys. Look at it from a character's perspective: Two lords who somehow survived the Red Wedding, claiming that Robb wanted to make Jon king. Why would anyone believe them? Especially Jon Snow, who knows in ADWD that Robb was killed by his own men, he has no reason at all to trust Maege or Galbart. And without the will, Jon Snow would just be an usurper and deserter from the Night's Watch.

Narrative-wise, I don't see much foreshadowing of Jon being king in the north in the main series - all so-called "foreshadowing" I've seen are ambiguous allusions or far-fetched interpretations. I see no thematic or character purpose, either - I tend to think that R+L=J, the three dragons and his assassination lead into him being a dragonrider and fighter against the Others. In my opinion, the political side of the Northern storyline is Sansa and Stannis' job. And there is plenty of potential conflict around them without the need for a king in the north scheme.

But the big sticking point is that the actions of many of the supposed conspirators don't fit with theory. Just to cite a few examples:

Lady Stoneheart is not crowning Jon with anything but a noose, not in a million years, there is no evidence whatsoever that she's anything but a revenge zombie.

Wyman Manderly is entrusting Rickon Stark to consummate Stannis loyalist Davos Seaworth, which makes no sense at all if he planned to betray Stannis later - why would he risk Rickon becoming Stannis' hostage?

We have no reason to believe that Barbrey Dustin is lying about not liking the Starks - for one thing, Dustin troops are noticeable by their absence for the War of Five Kings, true to her word. She'll probably jump ship if Roose falls, but that's not the same thing as becoming a Stark restorationist. In fact, I could see her supporting Stannis to take the Starks down a peg.

People keep citing Lyanna Mormont's defiant letter to Stannis as proof of Bear Island not being truly on his side, but not only is she (as Jon points out) not in charge of House Mormont, we later see Alysane marching with Stannis. She almost certainly is in contact with Maege given her comments to Asha about her family; I doubt that this is a right hand vs left hand situation. I am not even sure that she has much of a retinue, either - the problem with Rickon above may exist here too. Finally, recall that in AGOT Maege challenged Robb, telling him that he was so young as to have no business giving her commands. The Mormonts don't let anyone boss them around, that doesn't mean that they are Frey Lite.

In short, this theory requires lots of poorly foreshadowed OOC behaviour to enable a rather pointless political ploy that doesn't fit the narrative very well.

[daenystheedreamer]

"Grand northern conspiracy" what part of the last 5 books makes you think ANY of these people have the ability to collaborate with each other independently be so real rn. ned had been IMPRISONED and the manderlys and umbers were fighting over hunting lands they are NOT planning anything together they just all hate roose that much

exactly plus what have we learned about people. They Do Not Shut The Fuck Up EVER. r+l=j only stayed secret because it was JUST ned and howland and they never said anything ever ned lied to his wife for fifteen years. there is no way, in such a tense climate, every lord and lady in the north could a) keep their mouth shut b) coordinate despite conflicting loyalties c) not have any of their hundreds of men blab even accidentally. also ravens is not texting its not immediate and you can just shoot that raven dead. the grand northern conspiracy is several seperate minor quests that slightly overlap.

my thoughts on the gnc (based on the ASX video, i hate the forums) below the cut

WINTERFELL

the snowmen lords (barbrey, wyman, harwood stout, whoresbane umber) have their rickon conspiracy. this is the davos one, most obvious, confirmed etc. i believe what has been explained and hinted is straightforward.

ROBB'S WILL: MAEGE AND GALBART

maege and galbart are ambiguously with howland in the neck with robb's will that says jon is heir. there's evidence they made it and maege is "with lyra and [jorelle]" but probably not at bear island, because lyanna is the only one there. there have since no mentions of galbart's whereabouts

howland of course is the last living person with knowledge of r+l=j

robb's will was made under the belief that bran and rickon were dead and that sansa and arya were ???, leaving that document in limbo. also jon is dead

my belief is maege and galbart had their meeting with howland and are in some kind of hiding rn. i don't think howland told them about r+l=j because it's honestly sooo unrelated to the northern political situation. all it does is make things way more chaotic and puts jon in a really precarious position.

ROBB'S WILL: LADY STONEHEART

LSH has robb's crown and since cat was at the signing of the will it's possible she could crown jon. people link her to maege and galbart but lsh is clearly doing her own thing right now and does not gaf about her bastard stepson

the lannister/freys lost the brotherhood somewhere in the neck so its possible LSH is up there slaying it up with howland.

i think the LSH/howland collusion is a little iffy. LSH is not in her right mind because her brain is rotting in her cracked skull. i just dont see her scheming a huge political conspiracy rn.

personally im of the opinion LSH is on a course towards arya and/or sansa, not jon. or at least her nexus is at her daughters. she is on a revenge quest, not avenge quest. she wants to kill RW participants, not complete robb's will.

plus imo if LSH and the brotherhood are scheming anything, its a red wedding 2.0 massacre

RIVERRUN

tom of sevenstreams is spying on the lannister riverrun camp on behalf of the BWB and is clearly colluding with edmure.

edmure frees brynden

brynden is a robb loyalist and is now running around possibly knowing whatever edmure knows from tom

two riverrun tully guards choose to join the night's watch. where JON is!!!

also jeyne westerling is confirmed to feature in the TWOW prologue

this stuff is wayyy more circumstantial. the line of thought is that the BWB knows about robb's will -> tom knows -> tom tells edmure -> edmure tells brynden -> brynden becomes jon snow #1 fan or whatever. + those tully men are sent judge jon/inform him/whatever

again this is all under the assumption that this is LSH's plan, which i doubt. i think this part of the conspiracy is the least credible and i think a lot of these 'clues' or whatever are probably about a possible red wedding 2.0 (or attack on the lannister camp) as opposed to Everything Is About Jon. those tully men are sus though...

---

jesus okay i got bored here once i got to the part about stannis army politics. i only have enough space in my head to care about one conspiracy per contingent and i picked night lamp for stannis' army. i think there are conflicting loyalties and the fArya situation + bran rickon thing will complicate it further but jesus christ theyre on a military campaign. they do not have time to hook up with fuckn wyman manderly. everyone is freezing and starving okay.

flint and norrey have some shit going on. plus the fuckin liddle that met bran. god. what ever. basically its several minor conspiracies that happen to overlap and some are probably unrelated. but anyway everyone go watch and draw your own conclusions<3

i think the bolton-held winterfell is a powder keg waiting to explode is the Point or whatever. everyone runnning around with conflicting loyalties lying hating each other loving their family etc etc human heart in conflict with itself. way more fun and thematically appropriate. plus its so unneccessary... its like how people try and make littlefinger have bigger and crazier plans. his plans are already big and crazy you dont need to throat him so hard. now i think wyman does deserve a good throating but he's already an awesome schemer do we need to include lady stoneheart. let her murder more people on her own for her own reasons. god forbid women do anything

[halekduo]

The Blackfish slandering Jon Snow is my personal Red Wedding.

Hoping against hope Brynden was just putting on a show so Jaime wouldn't suspect the two of his men taking the black and that those fellas are only going to Castle Black to inform Jon about Robb's will. Please god.

[askmeaboutmyoctopustheory]

this is the third time i’ve tried to upload this lets see if i can do it

[nulnoildrinker]

Broke: The Grand Northern Conspiracy is real, and upheld by most northern lords through their sheer and eternal loyalty to House Stark.

Woke: Without the loyalty to Ned Stark in particular, The North will be turned into a massive free for all, as any and all lords with some ancient claim will scamper for the throne. This issue is made worse by the fact that the preferred heirs to said houses are either dead or held in southron chains; and as such could be used as pawns in southron ambitions. This is also why the heirs of Ned Stark, be they real or fake, are used as symbols of legitimacy, such as the marriage between Ramsay Bolton and Jeyne "Arya Stark" Poole.

[atopvisenyashill]

thoughts on the grand northern conspiracy theory?

it makes some points but i think most of it is deeply silly and relies on far too many leaps in logic and characters acting in a way they would never act all to push a “jon will be king” theory, which as i’m sure everyone knows, i am a big hater of.

The basis of the theory is that the Northern lords are purposefully playing Stannis & the Bolton/Freys against each other so they can take each other out, and free the North up for a Stark King & Northern Independence. That, on its face, I fully believe. It’s the details in the theory that I don’t fully buy into.

It’s basically canon that the Northern lords & ladies are really taking advantage of the chaotic politics & lack of a real centralized leader at the moment to make their own political moves. Some examples here include:

Arnolf & Cregan Karstark are explicitly doing this, something Alys comments on and something several other lords point out: "My uncle declared for Stannis, in hopes it might provoke the Lannisters to take poor Harry's head. Should my brother die, Karhold should pass to me, but my uncles want my birthright for their own." They don't really care about Stannis, they want Harry dead so they can have Karhold.

Alysane Mormont is potentially working off orders from her mother, when she says here, "Five, we were. All girls. Lyanna is back on Bear Island. Lyra and Jory are with our mother. Dacey was murdered." Even though as far as we know before that, all of Maege's girls were at Bear Island (except Dacey, who was with Maege in Robb's campaign).

There's the Umbers refusing to fight each other while picking two different sides, and this theory here that it was likely a plan between Mors and Hother to keep the Greatjon alive.

The Manderly Of It All re: very obviously using his granddaughter's anger as a cover for his own brutal plans for revenge and a Stark restoration.

The North is all clearly playing the game & attempting to oust the Boltons & Freys from power. I also don’t think the grumbling for Northern Independence would have died down since Robb died - if anything, after their King is brutally, viciously murdered, his mother’s corpse made a mockery of, his little Queen now a prisoner, and his sisters married off to enemies & humiliated, I imagine the calls for Northern Independence have gotten louder. This is a people that has suffered not just death and violence, but a lot of humiliation on top of that, and all of that is the perfect recipe for some sort of nationalist call for independence.

But the theory has. Some points that I just cannot co-sign because they make absolutely zero sense to me.

The idea that the only thing stopping Jon from being king is Jeyne being pregnant or the witnesses of Robb’s will being dead is just silly. He isn’t Ned Stark’s son, he is Lyanna’s! That puts Robb’s entire will in question, and you can bet your ass that there will be some grumbling or discussion about whether Winterfell should bypass Ned‘a line despite him having TWO true born sons and TWO true born daughters still alive, or whether it goes to Lyanna and therefore to Jon. The succession question is just NOT as simple as the meta makes it out to be because it completely ignores that Jon is, I cannot stress this enough, NOT actually Ned Stark’s son.

The meta is right that it’s likely Maege & Gallbart got a message to Howland because Theon notes that there’s been attacks by craggoman. But. Howland is one of - possible thee only - person left alive that knows Jon is Lyanna’s son. There is just no way he doesn’t have a strong opinion on whether Jon should inherit winterfell without knowing the truth.

Irrelevant but it’s really mean to Jeyne Westerling. Whatever role she may have - even if it’s to die in the prologue of TWOW - her life and her death are important regardless of whether she’s pregnant! She is the widow of a King, and if she dies by LSH’s hand, it’s going to be a huge point in showing us the violence in the Riverlands. Maybe the continued breakdown in the Riverlands, Lady Stoneheart’s anger, and Jeyne’s defiance of her family is not relevant to the King Jon pushers, but it IS thematically relevant to the plot thank you very fucking much. THE GIRL IS JUST AS IMPORTANT AS THE BOY.

More relevant to this point is there’s just no way in fuck that Lady Stoneheart is trying to crown Jon. “oh she has bigger problems” she is going to crown one of her children if she crowns anyone, likely Arya, not her husband’s bastard who she fucking hated & asked to be banished to a glorified penal colony. Look at Brynden’s comments about Jon:

The Blackfish narrowed his eyes. "Did your father arrange for that as well? Catelyn never trusted the boy, as I recall, no more than she ever trusted Theon Greyjoy. It would seem she was right about them both.

Cat hates that kid so much she wrote letters to her uncle talking shit about him but we are supposed to believe this is proof she wants to crown him? When she's so far gone she's willing to kill Podrick and Brienne off a perceived slight against her? When she's heard several rumors that her daughters may still be alive and well? No. Don't buy it even a little.

Also, Brynden is flying Robb’s banner bc Robb was his family, because he loved Catelyn, and because what else is he supposed to do when he’s in the middle of a siege?? This point is silly and nonsensical.

Harwin as the Hooded Man - i mean. there’s nothing for or against this really, but also the Theon Durden theory aka Theon is the hooded man and doesn’t realize bc he’s having a psychotic episode, is much more believable to me & much more in line with everything that’s happening in theon’s chapter.

So like. Yes, the basic premise of “the northern lords are desperately looking for a stark, any stark, to make king/queen in the north, bc they are tired of All This Bullshit” is something i completely agree with. I do think it’s likely Maege has been in contact with her daughters, & that she and Gallbart made contact with Howland, who is about to enter the scene in a big way. But all that ish about LSH, the BWB, and Blackfish? Absolutely not. LSH is about Arya’s story (and Brienne & Jaime’s), not Jon. Stoneheart doesn’t care about the politics in Westeros; she cares that she followed all the rules and it got her family killed, so now she will break every rule there is to get revenge for her slaughtered children. she is Alyssa Arryn except she has the power to cause a lot of suffering before her tears drown her. she is not wasting her second life crowning jon snow!

[bravelittlescrib]

[cynicalclassicist]

That is good! So cannibalism does come to the North due to the Freys! And ironically, it's from a House that is relatively new to the North that it comes.

On the surface, Wyman Manderly killing Rhaegar, Symond and Jared Frey the moment he is free of host obligations and baking them into pies to serve at Ramsay’s wedding is only a commentary on the violation of guest right that took place at the Red Wedding. At best, any additional connection comes from the  tongue-in-cheek nod to all the comments about Lord Manderly’s weight via the connection to the Rat Cook who is an enormous white rat that serves as inspiration for Lord Too-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse of White Harbor.

But there’s more to the pies than just being a creative way of extracting revenge while mocking the Freys and the Boltons. We have to wonder why Lord Manderly chose such an unorthodox method that shows a sinister side not typically known of the Manderlys. Why didn’t he just kill the Freys and dump their body somewhere obscure, never to be found? Yes, it’s a direct link to the popular song about the gods’ punishment for those who break sacred guest right. But is that it?

Throughout the whole mummer’s farce, Lord Manderly is basing his revenge plans on things the Freys or the Boltons have done in a series of moves that speak of poetic justice, from skirting around guest right to promising betrothals as a way to lure the Freys to planning to bleed the Bolton supporters in the same way Roose Bolton bled the Northern forces. Now the Freys did make a mockery of Robb’s Young Wolf title by sewing Grey Wind’s head on his body, and made a mockery of the Tullys’ funeral rituals by throwing Catelyn’s body into the river, but while serving the pies and Manderly’s attitude afterwards is a sly mocking of the Freys and the Boltons, the connection stops at that.

Or so it seems. Our first meeting with Wyman Manderly in ADWD is helpfully rife with references to people whose stories pertain to cannibalism one way or another, people who Lord Manderly holds dear that were either made to eat human flesh or falsely accused of doing it by the Freys, Boltons and Lannisters. True to his form of inspired retribution, Manderly prepares a revengeful dish, served steaming.

1. Wylis Manderly:

Lord Manderly’s son and heir, the one whose safety is made possible by Davos’ arrival in White Harbor with how it gave Manderly the chance to prove his good faith to the Lannister, ensuring Wylis’s safe return by the time Davos learns of Manderly’s true loyalties.

In ASOS, Ser Wylis is taken captive by the Lannisters as a direct result of Roose Bolton’s betrayal. In a ploy to bleed the Northern houses loyal to the Starks, Roose Bolton puts Wylis and the knights of White Harbor in the rearguard of his forces when they are crossing the Trident by small boats, making it that Wylis and a host of Northerners are stranded when Gregor Clegane attacks, leading to Wylis’ capture.

Held at Harrenhal under the command of Clegane and his men, Wylis and the other hostages are served parts of Vargo Hoat’s body with Wylis eating the lion’s share of the “roast goat”

“One of the captives was always begging food,” Rafford admitted, “so Ser [Gregor] said to give him roast goat. The Qohorik didn’t have much meat on him, though. Ser took his hands and feet first, then his arms and legs.”  

“The fat bugger got most, m'lord,” Shitmouth offered, “but Ser, he said to see that all the captives had a taste. And Hoat too, his own self.” (Jaime III, AFFC)

It’s unknown if Wylis finds out that he has been served human flesh, Jaime wonders the same thing when he sees him. But as crazy and sadistic Gregor Clegane is, chances are Wylis is made aware of it at one point, if he was ever fooled in the first place.

2. Donella Hornwood:

Both Wylla and Wyman Manderly conveniently reminds us of the Lady Hornwood plot from ACoK, and of why Ramsay is widely despised and reviled across the North, even before his part in the sack of Winterfell is found out.

[Wylla Manderlly]: ”[Ramsay] won’t ever be my lord! He made Lady Hornwood marry him, then shut her in a dungeon and made her eat her fingers.“  

A murmur of assent swept the Merman’s Court. "The maid tells it true,” declared a stocky man in white and purple, whose cloak was fastened with a pair of crossed bronze keys. “Roose Bolton’s cold and cunning, aye, but a man can deal with Roose. We’ve all known worse. But this bastard son of his … they say he’s mad and cruel, a monster.” (Davos III, ADWD)

Wyman brings it up again in his conversation with Davos, the same one in which he betrays his intentions to kill the three Freys currently residing under his roof.

“The evil is in [Ramsay’s] blood,” said Robett Glover. “He is a bastard born of rape. A Snow, no matter what the boy king says.”

“Was ever snow so black?” asked Lord Wyman.“Ramsay took Lord Hornwood’s lands by forcibly wedding his widow, then locked her in a tower and forgot her. It is said she ate her own fingers in her extremity” (Davos IV, ADWD)

It’s a reminder of the dispute over Lord Hornwood’s lands that ended with Ramsay marrying and raping Lady Hornwood before starving her to the point of eating her fingers. Wyman points out that Roose Bolton has decreed that he gives up control of the Hornwood land and castles to Ramsay, lands that Manderly came in control of - after the North cracked down on Ramsay and he was thought to be dead in ACoK - because Donella Hornwood was Donella Manderly before marriage. She is Wyman Manderly’s cousin.

3. Robb Stark:

The first person on this list who didn’t actually eat human flesh but was slandered by his enemies as a vicious cannibal going back to ACoK.

Sansa had always thought Lancel Lannister comely and well spoken, but there was neither pity nor kindness in the look he gave her.

“Using some vile sorcery, your brother fell upon Ser Stafford Lannister with an army of wargs, not three days ride from Lannisport. Thousands of good men were butchered as they slept, without the chance to lift sword. After the slaughter, the northmen feasted on the flesh of the slain. (Sansa III, ACoK)

The same lie is perpetuated by the Freys in the Merman’s court and used to put the blame of the Red Wedding on Robb himself. Not only that but they try to sell the lie that Robb could turn into a wolf. They try to paint him as a savage violent animal who attacked and killed his own men.

One of the Freys stepped forward [..] “The Red Wedding was the Young Wolf’s work. He changed into a beast before our eyes and tore out the throat of my cousin Jinglebell, a harmless simpleton. He would have slain my lord father too, if Ser Wendel had not put himself in the way.” […]

The enormity of the lie made Davos gasp. “Is it your claim that Robb Stark killed Wendel Manderly?” he asked the Frey.

“And many more. Mine own son Tytos was amongst them, and my daughter’s husband. When Stark changed into a wolf, his northmen did the same. The mark of the beast was on them all. Wargs birth other wargs with a bite, it is well-known. It was all my brothers and I could do to put them down before they slew us all.” (Davos III, ADWD)

The Freys obviously use their desecration of Robb’s body by sewing Grey Wind’s head onto his body as a tongue-in-cheek echo to their lie about Robb’s warging which they promptly use to pin the crime of breaking guest right on him and his men and slander him as a beast who feasted on human flesh and not only tried to kill his host (who, in a broader definition of kinship, was made to be Robb’s kin by Edmure’s marriage to Roslin) but also killed his own loyal vassal, Wendel Manderly.

4. Rickon Stark:

The precious cargo Davos is sent to secure in exchange for Wyman’s fealty. Rickon and Osha are currently on Skagos, a place that Davos reflects on when Wyman states the terms for his allegiance.

For half a heartbeat Davos considered asking Wyman Manderly to send him back to the Wolf’s Den, to Ser Bartimus with his tales and Garth with his lethal ladies. In the Den even prisoners ate porridge in the morning. But there were other places in this world where men were known to break their fast on human flesh. (Davos IV, ADWD)

Although Bran and Rickon originally flee from Theon, their hiding in the crypts speaks of them waiting for help, for a Northern force to come to liberate Winterfell from the Ironborn. It’s Ramsay’s sacking Winterfell that forces them out to seek safety in another place, ultimately leading Osha to conceal Rickon on Skagos, an island with a sinister reputation for the widely believed notion that it has a cannibal population.

So, to review: Roose Bolton causes the capture of Mandely’s son who os fed human flesh in captivity. Ramsay forcibly marries Manderly’s cousin and starves her to the point of eating her own fingers, then sacks Winterfell causing Rickon to end up on cannibal island. And the Freys slander Robb’s name by putting forward a fable about how he ate both his enemies and his men.

In return, Wyman Manderly makes them all eat human flesh, feeds the Freys their own brothers, and eats from the pies himself, making Lancel’s words about the Northerners feasting on the flesh of the slain a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The North sure remembers.

[visenyaism]

i don’t believe there’s a whole grand northern conspiracy. what there IS is like 20 nobles stuck in Winterfell together all of whom are at this point prepared to unleash cataclysmic violence as soon as someone else moves first and lets them know which way the wind is blowing but all of them refuse to blink first so they’re all just waiting. but it’s soon. if someone even drops a fork at the wrong time at dinner it’s ending up in Ramsay’s eye before it gets back on the table. 

[jeyneofpoole]

my dealer: got some straight gas 🔥😛 this strain is called “the grand northern conspiracy” 😳 you’ll be zonked out of your gourd 💯

me: yeah whatever. i don’t feel shit.

5 minutes later: dude I swear I just saw some freys eat cannibalism pie

my buddy barbrey pacing: the maesters are lying to us

[synchodai]

for those not familiar with jacegan and fan theories, could you elaborate on what you think happened when jace and cregan met, the pact they made, the whole issue of baela and sara snow, jace’s death, black aly, etc?

Well, I did write a series about this, but time to bring back the conspiracy board...

the pact of ice and fire

Cregan and Jacaerys took a liking to each other, for the boy prince reminded the Lord of Winterfell of his own younger brother, who had died ten years before. They drank together, hunted together, trained together, and swore an oath of brotherhood, sealed in blood [...] Cregan Stark and Jacaerys Velaryon reached an accord, and signed and sealed the agreement that Grand Maester Munkun calls “the Pact of Ice and Fire” in his True Telling. - F&B

Note that Munkun is basing "the pact of ice of fire" around what he knows from Orwyle's testimony and rumors, meaning that out of the three primary sources in the book (Orwyle, Mushroom, Eustace), none of them were there to actually witness what Jace did in the Vale and the North. That being said, Cregan seemed to ally with the blacks based on three things:

The oath sworn by his late father, Rickon Stark,

A promise of marriage between his heir and Jace's firstborn daughter,

And that he just really grew a liking to Jace.

The first one suffices for a lot of readers as reason for Cregan Stark to throw his lot in with the blacks. He named his firstborn after his father, so it's a logical conclusion that he wants to honor his vows.

The second one is a bit iffy since betrothals to daughters who don't exist from a guy who isn't even married yet sounds like a bad trade-off, but some have excused this by saying that Cregan Stark really wanted dragonriding blood in his lineage for some reason.

And the third one is what the shippers latch onto to, and which I believe may have weighed more in his decision-making process than #1 and #2. The reason for that being Cregan Stark himself deciding to lead an army of men whose goal was pretty much to die in battle. He had every reason not to take up command and march south:

Winter had arrived and those days were crucial for bringing in the last harvests. Cregan amassing his host and marching as he did arguably may have partially resulted in the famine in the North that we see in Aegon III's regency.

His only heir was three-years-old at the time, so if he dies in battle, the only Stark in Winterfell would be a toddler.

And it must needs be said again, the northern army was looking to die. Cregan seemed to be on the same suicidal warpath because his plan was to recklessly go scorched earth.

Others had started this war, Lord Cregan was heard to say, but he meant to finish it, to continue south and destroy all that remained of the greens who had placed Aegon II on the Iron Throne and fought to keep him there. He would reduce Storm’s End first, then cross the Reach to take Oldtown. Once the Hightower had fallen, he would take his wolves north along the shores of the Sunset Sea to visit Casterly Rock. [...] When Kermit Tully pointed out that Storm’s End, Oldtown, and Casterly Rock were as strong as Stark’s own Winterfell (if not stronger) and would not fall easily (if at all), and young Ben Blackwood echoed him and said, “Half your men will die, Lord Stark,” the grey-eyed Wolf of Winterfell replied, “They died the day we marched, boy.”

The non-shipping interpretation here is that Cregan Stark is a paranoid opportunist who wants to thin the herd, so to speak, and trusts no one because of his own childhood trauma of being betrayed by his uncle. But this can also be read as Cregan Stark as having a deathwish himself. But for what reason? He's twenty-three with a child and a whole realm to govern. Why is he so openly hostile to the blacks like Corlys who are supposedly his allies for "failing to protect the king"? You know, the same king that Cregan was ostensibly looking to kill himself?

Unless, the king he's thinking about isn't Aegon II. Maybe it was a black king instead of a green king that Corlys failed. Cregan's actions just make more sense if they're driven by vengeance than a need to "end the war" when the war is already ending and he's the one ramping it up.

Let's look at additional evidence that supports this reading.

the sara snow question

But we turn to Mushroom to find the tales other chronicles omit, nor does he fail us now. His account introduces a young maiden, or “wolf girl” as he dubs her, with the name of Sara Snow. So smitten was Prince Jacaerys with this creature, a bastard daughter of the late Lord Rickon Stark, that he lay with her of a night. On learning that his guest had claimed the maidenhead of his bastard sister, Lord Cregan became most wroth, and only softened when Sara Snow told him that the prince had taken her for his wife. They had spoken their vows in Winterfell’s own godswood before a heart tree, and only then had she given herself to him, wrapped in furs amidst the snows as the old gods looked on.

The book itself tells us to take Mushroom's account with a giant block of salt, so most people just tend to dismiss Sara Snow entirely. The readers who do like to think that she existed do so because they like that it complicates Jace's relationship with Baela and how she could possibly have allowed Jace to explore or confront his issues with his bastardy.

However, if she did exist, it raises some questions like:

Why is she a non-entity, being only mentioned twice in the book? While not the focus of F&B, we still get updates on Cregan and the North post-Dance but Sara Snow is never mentioned in any of them. She wasn't even mentioned attending Cregan's eventual wedding to Black Aly.

Why did Cregan never bring her up during his time in King's Landing? If Jace did marry his sister and she got pregnant with his child, that would explain his zeal to secure the throne for his nephew who has a claim to it, but Cregan just never mentions the marriage at all.

Why would he still be friends and so loyal to someone who deflowered his sister under his roof? Doesn't seem like a very bro thing for Jace to do.

So we split the difference between Sara Snow existing and not existing by assuming that the person Jace slept with was actually Cregan Stark.

delaying the marriage to baela

Though Baela also announced her intent to marry Jace at once, no wedding was ever held. Munkun says the prince did not wish to wed until the war was over, whilst Mushroom claims Jacaerys was already married to Sara Snow, the mysterious bastard girl from Winterfell.

This is the second and last time Sara Snow is mentioned. Admittedly, there are plenty of practical reasons Jace and Baela's wedding was postponed — foremost being that consummating their union meant getting Baela pregnant and losing an active dragonrider.

However, we add this to the conspiracy board because GRRM didn't have to include this detail. No one reading the book would have questioned why Jace and Baela never wed, but he called attention to it anyway, so it must mean something beyond being distracted by the ongoing war. Even more interesting is how this passage specifies that Baela wanted to get married at once, heavily implying that it was specifically Jace who delayed it.

It's also interesting that what comes after this is...

the gay abandon

Their father, Prince Daemon, had made many friends in the Free City of Pentos during his visits there, so Jacaerys reached across the narrow sea to the prince of that city, who agreed to foster the two boys until Rhaenyra had secured the Iron Throne. In the waning days of 129 AC, the young princes boarded the cog Gay Abandon—Aegon with Stormcloud, Viserys clutching his egg—to set sail for Essos.

I grant you that this my farthest and most tinfoil take, but mentioning delaying Jace and Baela's wedding and following it up with Jace arranging for a ship called the Gay Abandon? Wow, to be abandoned by a gay, huh?

baela targaryen

“Not even the tears of a dragon could melt the frozen heart of Cregan Stark, men said rightly,” Mushroom tells us, “but when Lady Baela brandished a sword and declared that she would cut off the hand of any man who sought to harm the men who had saved her, the Wolf of Winterfell smiled for all to see, and allowed that if her ladyship was so fond of these dogs, he would permit her to keep them.”

This is Cregan and Baela's one interaction in the book — her threatening him and him being impressed enough to back off. Prior to this interaction, other men and women have pleaded with and threatened him, but Baela is one of two people who actually get him to spare someone from getting sentenced and executed. This could just mean that Baela is a badass, which she is, but combine that with the other person who does this feat and we may see a bit of a pattern.

black aly

“A lean tall creature was this wench,” says the dwarf, “thin as a whip and flat-chested as a boy, but long of leg and strong of arm, with a mane of thick black curls that tumbled down past her waist when loosed.” [...] Though Black Aly was no man’s queen of love and beauty, her fearlessness, stubborn strength, and bawdy tongue struck a chord for the Lord of Winterfell, who soon began to seek out her company in hall and yard. “She smells of woodsmoke, not of flowers,” Stark told Lord Cerwyn, said to be his closest friend.

This is the woman Cregan eventually marries and ends his scorched earth campaign. Now, Baela's connection to Jace is obvious — she's his cousin/step-sibling/betrothed. But I argue that Black Aly may remind Cregan of Jace even more strongly than Baela did. Here are their similarities:

They are of the same age. Black Aly is 16. Jace was 15 when he arrived at Winterfell and would jave been 16-17 by the time Cregan arrived in King's Landing.

She looks like a boy.

She has thick, black curls and dark eyes.

She is the eldest sibling who is acting as de facto head of their House.

She loves riding and smells of smoke. You know...maybe like a dragonrider.

Cregan's desire to enact "justice" seems to be quenched once he secures a marriage with her — which makes little sense if his initial motivations were to get dragonriding blood into his line, to "clean up the mess" of the war, or to kill off his men and grab the spoils of war. However, if the driving force behind all of this had been grief over a love lost too soon, then it suddenly makes sense that he calms down when someone else makes him experience love anew, yes?

Anyways, Cregan is a himbo bi-icon and Brokeback Winterfell happened — it just makes sense.

(Art by Yanh Hyung on X)

[daenystheedreamer]

‘lgbtabcd alphabet community too many letters har har har’ you’d fucking die fucking brain explosion DIE if you read asoiaf. asoiaf got hotd grrm d&d agot acok asos affc adwd twow ados f&b twoiaf awoiaf tsoiaf r+l=j n+a=j d+d=t bwb 3EC COTF rw wot5k KOTLT toj ptwp ymbq tdotd kitn LF YG NK BF BR CH LS KL KG WF NW. both use gnc though gender non-conforming 🤝 grand northern conspiracy

[atla-confessions]

A few headcanons and confessions I guess (sorry it will be a bit long. Also spoiler for the Roku Novel):

* Azulon definitely called Sozin grandpa or grandfather at some point (first time was a mistake, other times were to piss him off)

* The design of Khandro makes me think that one of his parents is from the Water Tribes (or that he is a result of Kuruk hedonistic lifestyle although it would be impossible )

* While the reason for why Roku appear as an old man compared to his past lives is because there was no design for a young version of him yet, I want to believe that because of the volcanic eruption all illustration of him as young man that he must have had were destroyed so they had to make a statue of him as an old man which compels him to appear as one to not confuse his successor

* Aang asked Roku at one point if Flameo Hotman is a real slang in the Fire Nation. Roku wanted to say no at first but then told him yes because he remembered his conversation with Gyatso when they were young and thought that it would be funny to perpetuate Gyatso's small legacy

* Also in the Roku novel, while I am all for Gyatso calling out the Fire Nation for it sexism about not having a woman Fire Lord, I find it quite disrespectful to outright call it morally backwards to Roku's face ( this is not to defend the fire nation)

* In case we get a Kuruk Novel (and I hope so!!), whoever will be the writer will have quite a challenge since we know most of his life and his battles with the added fact that he died in his 30s. It does not leave a lot to write about.

* Maybe Avatar Szeto saw Fire Lord Yosor growing greedy and wanted to quit his role as Grand Advisor in order to put his focus on the other nations (and also because in his eyes the fire nation could sustain itself without him) but was murdered by the Fire Lord in conspiracy with the clans and they kept it hush hush (just a theory!!!)

* I refuse to believe that Sozin died peacefully in his sleep. Nuh uh, I believe in ''No peace for the wicked''. In his last moments, after writing his testament, he was tortured by his own mind about the Friend that he dishonorably left to die in a volcanic eruption and put an end to himself making a bloody mess. Azulon covered everything up and got rid of every witnesses.

* I do not have a problem with Kyoshi's characterisation in the Roku novel and I don't think it is fanon Kyoshi (which I dislike even more). However, I would like to ask to the ones who don't like it how they would have wanted it to be handled (this is an honest question).

* I think the next Roku novel might take place a few years after the first in The Northern Water Tribe and put some emphasis on his problems with waterbending considering the situation with his brother's death. I also hope that it will be better written than the first and that the author is seeing the reviews written here to better himself.

* Koko has asked to do Kyoshi's makeup once. It was awful but Kyoshi wore it proudly to face her enemies despite the laughs she might have received from them.

* Maybe after the Camellia-Peony war, future Fire Lords after Zoryu up until Sozin were taught lessons in dick management to avoid a repeat and not give more power to the clans (in Sozin's case, he took them a little too seriously)

* I want Yangchen's special tea

X

[windriverdelta]

Jon Snow - King in the North?

One of the open questions of TWOW/ADOS is whether Jon Snow will ever become King in the North, as in Game of Thrones and in Robb's will. Now the KitN point in the show was extremely sloppily done - Jon didn't really accomplish anything with it, and some people suspect that the show simply gave Jon Stannis Baratheon's book function - and unlike "Stannis burns Shireen" or "Bran becomes king" it's not one of the moments-from-the book we know of, but given the show's tendency to write "moments" without a solid foundation just because they occur in the future books it's not ruled out. There are also some references by Mormont's raven and elsewhere that compare Jon to a king.

That said, I find it improbable. The first big problem is Stannis Baratheon. He's never going to abide a new King in the North, as he makes clear to Catelyn and Davos in ACOK. Jon Snow is effectively a Stannis supporter in ADWD, as we can see from e.g the way he calls him "the king" without qualifiers to Alys Karstark and tries to warn him about Arnolf Karstark. I doubt that he'd try to usurp Stannis. And crucially, Stannis has a lot of plot armour/guaranteed survival going in to TWOW/ADOS - unlike the show, Shireen has been left at the Wall and there is no way she could reach Stannis at Winterfell before his army starves to death, so we know he has to survive. And while we've seen with the Edric Storm affair in ASOS that Stannis is prepared to sacrifice a child to stop the Long Night, until the Long Night is actually underway I doubt that he'll give his only child to stop it. Lastly, Stannis being Azor Ahai is one of the lies Daenerys must slay, not the Boltons or Jon. Him dying before ADOS is an exceedingly unlikely prospect.

Second, there are a lot of political obstacles to Jon Snow becoming King in the North. While Robb's will almost certainly legitimized him, there is no evidence that a written copy of the will survived the Red Wedding and the Grand Northern Conspiracy is not a thing. All what he'd have is Maege Mormont's and Galbart Glover's word, since all other witnesses are trapped south of the Neck/in Iron Throne ally custody - and oh yeah, they are with Howland Reed who knows that Jon is not Ned's son. Also, the will assumed that Bran and Rickon were dead and Sansa in the power of the Lannisters; they aren't, and this is going to come out in TWOW between Davos' mission and Bran revealing himself in the crofters' village, complicating Northern politics as all these candidates have advantages and disadvantages over Jon. It's also unclear whether Northern independence is actually strongly supported in the North after the Red Wedding - we don't have much evidence of patriotic fervour in ACOK and ASOS, let alone in the history of the North during the Targaryen dynasty, and the current movers-and-shakers in the North mostly weren't around for the war council in Riverrun where Robb's acclamation took place. Their attitudes might be very negotiable. And as for the notion of Jon being acclaimed like in the show after defeating the Boltons - that's extremely unlikely in the books for sundry logistical and thematic reasons.

Speaking of, I think it's somewhat thematically unsound for a story where per GRRM the "true conflict is north of the Wall" and where Osha tells Bran that Robb is marching in the wrong direction, to suddenly champion the cause of Northern independence. Stannis, not Robb, is still alive at the end of ASOS. A coalition between wildlings, Starks, Team Stannis and small-o others - later joined by Daenerys and Tyrion as future dragonriders - is way more likely in my opinion.*

Vis-a-vis Jon Snow, there is also the question of how KitN fits into his character arc. He has already declined Stannis' offer of Winterfell in ASOS, making a tilt in TWOW might be repetitive. His story in TWOW is likely going to head to a resurrection, the Stark Family Reunion, the R+L=J reveal and (eta: in ADOS - see conversation with @jackoshadows) becoming a dragonrider (two of them must be Targaryens), probably also an identity crisis - KitN seems more like a detour, especially as the timeline does not leave much time for anything else. Abandoning the fight against the Others for political games in the North only to return to fighting the Others would be questionable storytelling.

Credit to @nobodysuspectsthebutterfly @poorquentyn @turtle-paced for inspiration/citations.

*Or a very dark possibility: Northern separatists try to force Jon's (or someone else's) accession by fighting with Stannis ... only to be taken in the rear by the Others when the Horn of Joramun brings the Wall down and their attempt to end in catastrophe as their armies are smashed between Others and pro-Stannis troops. The fiefs of the most pro-independence Northerners we've seen - Lyanna Mormont (OK, she's way down the Mormont succession order), Greatjon Umber and Robett Glover - are also the closest to the Wall, discounting the mountain clans, and thus closest to the "firing line". That might be a set-up to such a tragedy.

[exhausted-archivist]

Cassandra Pentaghast Timeline

A summarized and organized timeline of Cassandra's life. Summarizing the major points of Dawn of the Seeker; such as naming characters and such key events.

Warning in advance about some spoilers for Absolution as I quote a couple lines in the notes section.

9:04 Dragon

Cassandra is born in a carriage halfway between Cumberland and Val Chevin. She was raised in her family estate in Nevarra City until 9:10 Dragon.

9:10 Dragon

Lord Matthias and Lady Tigana, Cassandra and Anthony's parents, are executed by King Markus Pentaghast for taking the wrong side during the second attempt to overthrow the king. Cassandra and Anthony were spared from execution thanks to their uncle, their father's brother, Vestalus who was a senior member of the Mortalitasi who vouched for them and took them as his wards.

Cassandra and Anthony were moved to the Grand Necropolis in Nevarra.

9:12 Dragon

Vestalus was promoted to prelate of the Mortalitasi and overseer of the Grand Necropolis. This left Cassandra and Anthony by themselves more often, leaving them in isolation save for Nomi in the Chantry where Cassandra devoted her time.

Anthony and Cassandra started training in swordsmanship with asperations to becoming dragon hunters.

9:16 Dragon

Cassandra, at the age of 12*, witnesses her brother Anthony; a renowned dragon hunter, get beheaded at the hands of blood mages.

Cassandra begs to join the Templar Order when faced with a lack of justice for Anthony. Her uncle instead sends her to the Seekers of Truth.

She begins her training at the Seeker fortress of Montsimmard as an apprentice to Seeker Byron, a senior member. He focused on her religious education rather than her martial education.

9:19 Dragon

At the age of 15, Cassandra is the youngest Seeker to go through her vigil since the Storm Age. Her vigil takes place in a remote castle located within the Blasted Hills of Northern Orlais and lasts for two weeks.

9:22 Dragon

The following are the events of Dawn of the Seeker that take place. This is the briefest of summaries.

Cassandra and a group of Seekers attack a group of blood mages who abducted Avexis, an elven mage from the White Spire who has the ability to control beasts. The blood mages use a ritual to extend that power to controlling dragons. Byron, Cassandra's mentor and father figure, reveals to Cassandra a conspiracy within the Chantry as he is leaving the fortress with Cassandra and Avexis.

The three are attacked by blood mages, in wich Byrion dies and Avexis is kidnapped again. Cassandra is branded a traitor. Regalyan, a friend of Byrion and the contact they were to take Avexis to, is captured by Cassandra under the suspicion he is a blood mage. The pair is then captured by Templars and eventually make their escape. Cassandra's goal is to clear her name and discover proof of the conspiracy.

The conspiracy is that Knight-Commander Martel and Grand Cleric of Orlais, Callista, are working with the blood mages who intend to attack the 10 year gathering at the Grand Cathedral. Grand Cleric Callista and Knight-Commander Martel intend to unleash dragons on the Divine and gathered Grand Clerics during the ceremony so that Callista may become Divine as the last remaining Grand Cleric.

The conspiracy is thwarted by Cassandra, Regalyan, the Circle Mages, and additional Seekers. Cassandra kills two dragons and a high dragon. Saving the Divine.

As a reward for their actions, Cassandra is made the Right hand of the Divine and declared Hero of Orlais.

After the ceremony, Divine Beatrix III speaks with Cassandra about how the attack on the Gathering was only the beginning. Insisting that the Chantry must prepare for the coming storm before placing the holy writ into her hands. The writ that grants the Right and Left Hands of the Divine the authority to restore the Inquisition.

9:34 Dragon

Divine Beatrix III dies and Divine Justinia V is elected. Upon election, Divine Justinia V made a bit to retain Cassandra as her right hand. Pitching to Cassandra the multiple aspects of reform of the Chantry she wanted to do. Which Cassandra met with intrigue and accepted the role once more.

Leliana sent Cassandra a letter that speaks of her observations and how she welcomes the opportunity to work with Cassandra.

9:39 Dragon

Cassandra writes a letter to the now Lord Seeker Lucius, declaring she will not be joining the Seekers and will continue to work with the Divine.

There is an error with this as the Mage-Templar War didn't start until late autumn or winter of 9:40 Dragon. Seeker Lucius doesn't take over for Seeker Lambert until after the events of Asunder where Lambert is killed by Cole at the end of the book a few months later. Leaving the date of this letter to be 9:40 or 9:41.

9:40 Dragon

Cassandra interrogates Varric following the outbreak of the Mage-Templar War.

9:41 Dragon

Cassandra brings Varric and Cullen to Haven with Leliana, they both miss the chance to join the Divine at the beginning of the Conclave as they were delayed.

The Breach opens up and Cassandra leads soldiers into the valley to look for survivors. Her soldiers find the player character (PC Herald/Inquisitor) and the events of Inquisition begin.

Cassandra advocates with Leliana to approach the rebel mages for support with closing the Breach. If the player goes to Redcliffe and sees the situation, Cassandra's opinion will change to supporting the Templars.

Cassandra is investigating the disappearance of her fellow Seekers, her theory is they are prisoners of Corypheus.

Evidence is found that Samson/Calpernia sold the Seekers to the Order of Fiery Promise after finding out that the Seekers are resistant to red lyrium.

When Cassandra investigates the castle of Caer Oswin after tracking the Seekers there, she discovers that her apprentice Daniel, has been implanted with a demon and fed red lyrium. At this point, she discovers that it was Lord Seeker Lucius wh sold the Seekers to the Promisers and has been operating there the whole time. Cassandra then confronts Lucius and kills him in battle.

Procuring the Book of Secrets from the Lord Seeker, Cassandra learns the truth about the vigil. That Seekers were made tranquil and that it was only reversed once they were touched by a Spirit of Faith. This is what granted them their abilities and restored their minds. A fact she learns all Lord/Lady Seekers have known up until this point, and that Lord Seeker Lambert actively hid from the Divine.

Cassandra considers finding the scattered Seekers, reading the Book of Secrets with them, so there are no more secrets between them and establishing a new charter. She also wishes if there is a way to refine the process of reversing Tranquility on mages without the dangers that come with them being overcome by their emotions. The PC character will determine whether she actually does reform the Seekers and investigate the rite further.

If Divine:

Cassandra is said to enact reforms for a new Templar Order and Circle of Magi. She rebuilds the Seekers of truth and rededicates them to protecting the innocent, if the player encourages her. Her attempts of reform are controversial despite her popularity though are generally seen as successful efforts to stabilize peace.

If Not Divine:

She takes the position of advisor on the Divine's council, giving advice on important matters to Divine Victoria. Depending on if the Divine is Leliana or Vivienne dictates how long she stays. If the Divine is Leliana, she stays and works well with her as Cassandra holds respect for Leliana. If Vivienne is Divine, Cassandra eventually leaves disgusted, feeling that Vivienne is perverting the Chant of Light's intent.

9:42-9:44 Dragon

If Cassandra is Divine, she is working on efforts to clean up red lyrium and stating that it is going well.

If Cassandra is not Divine, and she is encouraged to rebuild the Seekers; a month before she returns to Orlais for Trespasser she is in the Hunterhorn Mountains tracking down Seeker Emery and finding leads on other Seekers in Rivian.

If Cassandra is not Divine and wasn't encouraged to rebuild the Seekers; she is in the port of Antiva City and completing a survey and establishes that there are no further signs of Fade energy or demons since the Inquisitor closed a rift there in the Spring. She confirms the Inquisition mages deem the Veil stable in the region. Cassandra also confirms that at this point, all rifts have finally been sealed.

Unclear

At some point, Cassandra aided a reaver named Nyree in defeating her first dragon. By doing so Nyree completed her Rite of Passage.

At some point prior to Cassandra's interrogation of Varric, the Seekers investigated the Vimmark Mountains that housed Corypheus and were turned away by the Grey Wardens and were told that everyone who had been in the prison were dead. Unclear if Cassandra was part of this investigation.

At some point in 9:41 during the Inquisition, Cassandra orders Sidony to return to Nevarra City and stop a Mortalitasi plot that is seeking to assassinate a member of the very unstable line of succession.

It is unclear when this occurred, as Absolution happens after Trespasser and that is about all that is established.** Cassandra and Leliana dispatch Fairbanks and Hira to steal an artifact from the Tevinter Imperium, the Circulum Infinitus.

Notes:

* Cassandra tells Sera that she was trained as a Seeker since she was 6. This is in conflict with a letter from Cassandra's uncle to the Seekers stating she was "even at the tender age of twelve, is too old to begin training with the Seekers". This is reinforced though dialogue the PC can have with her where she establishes she was training with the Seekers at a far older age than most recruits, and was able to do so because of her status.

** The Interview establishes this (emphasis by me)

"Despite its relative proximity to Dreadwolf, though, Absolution intentionally doesn’t try to use its time establishing any real sort of canon for players to latch onto. Some characters from the prior games show up for a spell, and events are broadly mentioned, but Epler (who also serves as Dreadwolf’s creative director) admitted that it was important to avoid setting a definitive canon." He acknowledged it as a “tricky balancing act,” in part because BioWare making its own canon runs the risk of conflicting with the canon players make on their own, and the studio’s word being potentially declared definitive gospel is the last thing anyone wanted. Similarly, there was a desire to make sure Absolution stood on its own, explicit ties to the games or no. “There’s all these elements that make up Thedas and what’s going on,” said Epler. “We were fine with leaving space for these stories to exist and feed into a larger world as a whole.”

Up until the Dragon Age cookbook, there was no establishment of the BioWare canon or the game default. Which are at times two separate things, but do overlap in areas. But the difference between the two is for another conversation.

Additionally some lines in Absolution are about all we have in regards to the fact it definitely happens after Trespasser.

"Before the Inquisition ended, we learned the Tevinter Chantry was in possession of an artefact. The Circulum Infinitus." ep1. , 7:50ish

"Rezaren is dead. I have the Circulum. It's over, if you want it to be. You were right, Hira. Tevinter is an evil place, and I know what it feels like for that hate and that fear to infect you, but... you can't let it. Help me take the Circulum to what's left of the Inqusition and we can try again, free from everything." ep.6, 21:40ish

Source:

World of Thedas Vol. 1 p. 143 World of Thedas Vol. 2 p. 220-223 Dragon Age: Inquisition Dialogue Dragon Age: Dawn of the Seeker Dragon Age: Redemption Interview with Absolution showrunner Mairighread Scott and EP John Epler by io9

Codex:

Cassandra Pentaghast Cassandra and the Last Few Years

[bravelittlescrib]

Level 1 asoiaf theorist: guys I think Jon MIGHT be a Targaryen

Level 555 asoiaf theorist: so the lovecraftian fish people are working with the maesters to usher in the Grand Northern Conspiracy, which will result in the annihilation of the tree god hivemind by Ser Pounce the cat (who has skinchanged into a dragon) and also Roose Bolton is an immortal vampire who wears people’s skin

Level 1000 asoiaf theorist: guys I think Jon MIGHT be a Targaryen