#anti jonsa

[izzy140105]

i know it's been 2 days from the jon incest anon, but in the books, he has MUCH better people to choose from. val, satin? and in this scenario, even isabelle. like, sorry that not everyone wants to commit incest..

THANK YOU!! It's good to see people with sense 😌 also 100% there are so many better people for Jon to choose from, books and show!! Like I'd rather see him end up with Tormund then see him with his LITTLE SISTERS!!

Also, yes, let's normalise this 👇 instead.

I mean just look at them... Not related... Hot af... Speaks for itself honestly 🫣🤭

[fandomlife-confessions]

[silverflameataraxia]

Sansa and Jeyne are the only people to call Arya ugly.

Meanwhile Ned, Jon, Gendry, Lady Smallwood, and the kindly man have all commented on her beauty, but this fandom ignores it in favor of two middle-school-aged mean girls who have to put Arya down to feel good about themselves.

[ai-manre]

Wha-what now??? WHAT???! This is extremely stupid, why would Lyanna ask for that when her joining with Rhaegar has already fulfilled that pact? And why only first born daughter and not any daughter (hint Jon would always choose Arya). And why would such a stupid premise even exist.

Sorry but Jon*Sansa shippers have the absolute worst theories and takes.

[mutter-of-dragons]

It's interesting that they always miss the point. Also very big of them calling the fandom ships "weird,incestuous" when J0nsa would also count as such. Newsflash: this is not about Sansa being or needing to be "humbled". If only they knew half the shit their own fandom is up to...

[jackoshadows]

Thinking more about this post made me come to a realization about what I will call the Jonsa conundrum.

I have come across this point frequently that anyone writing about or enjoying Sansa's canon relationships in the books does so because they need Sansa to be humbled or hate the character of Sansa herself.

Which is a really weird thing to say considering that people engage in fandom shipping because they really enjoy or love the character and are exploring these characters in fictional relationship tropes they enjoy. From what I have seen it's hardcore Sansa fans who are shipping SanSan.

It's also interesting because the person who has written all these relationships - positive or negative - with Tyrion and Sandor in the books is GRRM. So are these stans implying that GRRM himself hates the character of Sansa and wrote 5 books focusing on these relationships because he needs Sansa to be humbled?

And then there are posts like these:

If Sansa stans are shipping Jon and Sansa because all her other ships are abusive and she is being taken advantage of then why not Sansa and Sam? Why is that not a popular ship? There's as much basis, even more, for Sam and Sansa as a ship in the books than Jon and Sansa.

At the end of the day both are crackships, so if one has to go for a 'wholesome shipping experience' then why not Sam whose canon character does not even have to be twisted and mangled and changed to suit Sansa's sensibilities.

Sam is a genuinely sweet and nice guy who dislikes violence and actually respects and likes girls similar to Sansa unlike Jon Snow and they could even bond over their love for songs and music. Sam and Sansa have more in common than Jon and Sansa. And for folks complaining about incest, Sam and Sansa is incest free!

Even GRRM wants to know why there are not more folks shipping Sansa and Sam whom he describes as kind, smart, decent and devoted. Everything Sansa wants in a partner!

Here is the author himself going - 'Sandor is not a nice guy, why not ship Sansa with someone nice like Samwell Tarly!' - basically the answer to folks complaining about Sansa's canon ships being abusive and who want a wholesome ship for Sansa.

Like it or hate it, Sandor/Sansa or SanSan is an actual canonical relationship! The author has acknowledged it as such, he has outright stated that he has 'played with it' and even has SanSan fanart hanging on his house walls!

Similarly Sansa is married to Tyrion! That is a canon relationship. By the end of ASoS and in AFfC Sansa starts thinking more kindly of Tyrion and even considers him an option of where she can flee to if only he was still alive.

Littlefinger is clearly attracted to this younger Catelyn clone and is grooming her for his own evil purposes. So it makes sense that there are some fans who are into this sort of trope who are playing around with this ship as well.

Then there is Harry the Heir whom Sansa is plotting to marry and is openly flirting with in TWoW. That's another written relationship for Sansa in the books, so I can see why folks would ship that as well.

Then there's Sansa dreaming of or hoping to marry the Tyrell boys, Loras and Willas. Again, makes sense for shippers to play around with those ships.

So when folks ship SanSan or Sanrion or Sansa/Baelish or Sansa/Willas they are only going by the relationships - positive or negative - that Sansa has in the books and that the author has written for the character in the books. This is not Sansa hate.

There is no such relationship in the books between Jon Snow and Sansa Stark. This is why most sensible book readers treat it as the crackship it is. Even Sansa/Margaery and Jon/Sam make more sense as ships than Jon/Sansa because those characters have relationships with more emotional weight and actual page time devoted to it than Jon and Sansa.

Which brings me to the Jonsa conundrum. An oft repeated justification for Jonsa is that it's the only ship where "Sansa is not getting abused or taken advantage in any way". And therefore anyone who opposes this ship does so only because they hate Sansa. (Jon Snow and the character's likes, desires and wants are not even a consideration in this argument)

One main reason for why Jonsa is the only ship where Sansa is not getting abused or taken advantage of is because it exists only in fanfiction written by Sansa stans who center all their stories, headcanon and fanon around Sansa.

Jon and Sansa have nil on page interaction and rarely think of each other. Naturally there is not going to be any abuse! Stans insert whatever headcanons they want into their 'metas' and present it as canon, while straight up creating the dynamic between these two characters as some kind of Disney fairy tale relationship.

They hyper-inflate the one time Jon and Sansa mention each other while ignoring the many times Jon and his other siblings think of each other. They take away from Jon's other siblings and then pretend like they don't understand why fans of other characters don't like this ship.

They frame Sansa's classist prejudice against Jon Snow as being adorable and cute and praise Sansa for following the rules and being honest in treating a bastard like a bastard.

They twist and deliberately misrepresent Jon's reason for refusing Stannis' offer of Winterfell as being about Sansa. They downplay Jon's canon relationship with Arya by making even that to be all about Sansa.

Secondly and more importantly, why is it that they see Jon Snow as the only character who would not abuse or take advantage of Sansa?

What is different about Jon Snow compared to the male characters who fall for Sansa or who Sansa falls in love with canonically?

What is different between Jon Snow Vs Waymar Royce, Joffrey Baratheon, Sandor Clegane, Tyrion Lannister, Littlefinger, Loras Tyrell, Willas Tyrell, Harry the Heir etc.

Jon Snow is refreshing and unique in the world of Westeros because he often goes against the grain and admires girls who defy Westerosi patriarchal ideals and proactively do their own thing, make their own decisions and are in charge of their own destiny. He is a rule breaker and admires fellow rule breakers, something that is consistent over 5 books, from his bond with Arya to his arc with the Freefolk and now as Lord Commander bringing reform and change to the Night's Watch.

Jon Snow himself uses violence as a tool to achieve his goals. He has killed people, has executed people. He would be a hypocrite if he looked down on women who did the same.

Jon loves the 'violent' girlies. He admires the little freefolk girls wanting to be spearvives. He arms an entire fortress with spearwives (Hardin's tower) and puts one of them - Morna White Mask- in charge of a castle called Queensgate. That's right, Jon Snow put a female warrior in charge of Queensgate - so named after a Targaryen queen Alysanne.

He helps Sam and Satin because they are attacked for being gender non conforming. He supports Giant rights by standing up for and building a relationship with Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun.

Jon loves the pro-active girlies. He admires Alys Karstark for getting herself away from her enemies, riding through the harshest of Winters and getting to the Wall. He compares her to Arya and calls her brave.

Being othered himself, Jon can understand and empathize with Arya who gets a lot of flack from Sansa, her mother and the Septa for non conforming to Westerosi patriarchal ideals. This right here is the major difference between Jon and Sansa. Jon is against oppressive patriarchal ideals while Sansa actively upholds them despite being a victim of that very patriarchy.

There is less probability for a character who actively works against ingrained patriarchal rules and regulations of Westeros to abuse women. They are not going to see women as lesser beings, they are not here for forced marriage, they are not going to take out their trauma on the less advantaged of society. We see this in Jon planning on sending Arya to Braavos to avoid her being used as a pawn in the game of thrones. Or telling Selyse and Stannis that Val is free to choose her husband.

Ned/Cat is held up as the ideal relationship when even there Ned literally frightens Cat into not asking anymore questions about Jon and the specter of marital misery meant Cat ended up emotionally abusing a child instead of blaming the man responsible.

Where, even Ned failed to understand his sister Lyanna or daughter Arya and the only ending he wanted/wants for them is get married for a political alliance and have babies. Lyanna couldn't even confide in Ned because he never understood where she was coming from.

And that's the difference between Jon and like 90% of the male characters in the series. Because anyone blindly adhering to Westerosi patriarchal ideals and prejudices would be more prone to putting women into specific boxes and stepping out of those boundaries can lead to abuse.

However the problem for Jonsa shippers is that this book Jon Snow would also fall for the breaker of chains Daenerys Targaryen, another rule breaker and reformist. A true, wholesome, age appropriate, like minded power couple.

This is a problem for Jonsa shippers because they want a character who is out there befriending and supporting the underdogs, the dregs of society and who shows open contempt and disdain for Westerosi bigotry to fall in love with one of the most pro status quo characters, a poster child for Westerosi patriarchy.

This is a condundrum. How to deal with it? By mutilating and mangling the character of Jon Snow into an unrecognizable OC and making up all sorts of fanon that is repeated so often that most non book readers probably think this is true in the books.

Like the fanon about how Jon Snow hates violence and women who engage in violence. Or how Jon 'keeps dreaming of life in Winterfell with a traditional lady love' when in the books he just once imagines this with Val. Or how for Jon Snow his version of an ideal women is Sansa. Or how beauty is the most important factor in whom Jon Snow falls for.

And then of course, Jon's personality and actions make him attractive and he's got a direwolf and sword and possible chosen one hints in the narrative. And he is a main POV character that would prop up Sansa as the Song of Ice and Fire and the main character the series revolves around. And he's got a sword and can enact violence on other female characters like Daenerys.

Because as much as they pretend to espouse pacifism, these shippers want only Sansa to keep her hands clean while Jon and Arya kill all her enemies for her including inflicting violent abuse on other female characters.

Because if they actually espoused pacifism and just wanted a nice guy who hates violence and wouldn't abuse or take advantage of Sansa, there is always Samwell Tarly as I mentioned above.

Honestly, one of the worst aspects of Jonsa is that one of the rare, few male characters who stands out as being against the patriarchy in the books is then shoved into the same box as the 99% of the other male characters in the series.

If one wants Sansa to end up with someone who loves the traditional girlies there are plenty of other characters in the series. Hell, there are actual parallels between Sansa and Theon Greyjoy and yet for obvious reasons Sansa stans would rather make up these fake parallels between Jon and Sansa instead.

They want Jon for Sansa because he is hot and respects women. However they have to then change Jon's entire personality to have him fall for Sansa. In which he is no different to any other male character who follow ingrained Westerosi ideals, and in which case he would be just as prone to abuse just like the other male characters.

Jonsa stans seem not to understand that what makes Jon Snow more open to women's rights is his being against the traditional rules and status quo of Westeros, having been at the receiving end of those rules himself. And Sansa Stark, as written in the books, is the very opposite of that. She hates if girls don't wear dresses, she gives importance to class and titles, she thinks everyone should behave according to their place in society as outlined by outdated dogma, The very dogma, that Jon Snow is tearing down in his attempts to reform the Wall.

And that's the Jonsa conundrum.

[jonsaforeshadowing]

jonsa foreshadowing of the day: Ygritte being a stand-in for Sansa

[queen-of-andor]

I really hate that Jon//sa shippers have equate Sansa's Alayne Stone arc to Jon Snow believing he's a bastard. Because those two characters experience totally different situations.

Even if Jon is at some point revealed to be a Targaryen prince ( which isn't confirmed for all we know he could still be a Targaryen bastard) it won't change the fact that for the first 17 years of his life he lived with the bastard stigma. Nor it would magically erase the feeling of not belonging he felt on his own home due to his status and the way his father's wife was treating him.

Meanwhile, Sansa has lived her whole life knowing she's a noble lady and even now she's posing as Alayne she still knows that she's a Stark of Winterfell. It's different to pretend to be a bastard than to actually believe your whole life to be one.

And since I usually focus my meta on Jon, let's focus this one on Sansa and describe how, in my humble opinion, I believe this comparison is unfair for her, too.

Sansa's biggest problem right now isn't that she pretends to be a bastard. Actually, that's hardly an issue for her considering that Petyr, who poses as her father, treat her like the lady of the house and allows her to have all the comforts ladies of noble heritage have. Her biggest problem is that she has to live with that predator, who half fantasises she's the daughter he could have with his beloved Cat and half views her as the idealised younger version of his beloved Cat. And honestly, living with a creepy pedo is one of the worst things a teenage kid could have to deal with.

Returning to her Alayne Stone persona, I do believe that Martin choose her to pretend to be a bastard for a reason. But that has nothing to do with Jon Snow or any other character fans ship her with. Shocking I know, but asoiaf female characters exist outside of your preferred pairings and some-most!- of their plotlines exist to cater themselves alone.

Sansa grew up with an narrow view of the world most Westerosi noble girls usually have. When Joffrey and Cersei showed their true colors and her father died, her fantasies were shattered but she continued to have a narrow view of the world as she was still a noble who right then was also a hostage. By making her pretend to be a bastard while she's in Eyrie, Martin has given her the opportunity to associate and talk with a larger variety of people than she could have as a noble lady. Also, by temporarily changing her status, she's given the opportunity to witness how things work for those who are less fortunate than those who are born nobles - even if this happens only on a theoretical level bc as I said above practically she's still enjoying the benefits of nobility. I do believe this experience of hers will enrich her view of the world and add even more layers to the already complex personality Martin has crafted for her. And I do believe it's a shame to diminish that for the sake of a crack ship.

[thelustybraavosimaid]

I think what disturbs me the most about anti-Dany and anti-Arya Jonsas is that they claim to be feminist. And yet, somehow, they constantly envision all the ways Dany is going to die by Jon's hands, how she's going to go mad. They go on about how Arya is too far gone to where she either fucks off across the seas or dies, inhabiting Nymeria, and becoming subservient to Sansa as a replacement Lady. Or even being her enforcer, simply killing any person Sansa points at.

They are so threatened by Arya being Jon's favourite person in the world and that Daenerys will eventually have a meaningful relationship with him that they want both out of the picture...

"People who hate Sansa are misogynists and hate feminine women!!" and yet all of your theories are centred around hating women and wanting them to die because they are not "girly enough" according to your standards...what part of this screams feminism at all?

[naetaesarya]

Apparently, children, the Tourney of the Hand is centered entirely around Sansa.

And Sansa is a defender just like Lyanna against bullies (well, unless you're one of the people Sansa bullies herself of course).

Note: Please ignore how Sansa is not actually dead like Lyanna but only feels dead before her time (????) And Sansa fights for love "like a wolf", like a Lyanna, when she defends the demon boy Joffrey based on entirely superficial reasons while ignoring everyone's warnings about him.

Sansa Stark is Lyanna come again -- Arya who?

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

Do you think there is any possibility of a political marriage between Jon and Sansa? I just don't see any point in it. Not to mention that she is already married. But this theory is relatively popular and I don't understand why

No, it doesn't make sense, and it's extremely unlikely. It's popular because people ship them, and think a political marriage is a way out of the cousins-who-were-raised-as-and-believe-they're-siblings problem, and also think the show north storyline is how the books will go. Really, that's all there is to it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[silverflameataraxia]

Arya never hates Sansa or any other traditionally feminine woman for being able to sing, dance, sew, and mind their courtesies. She hates herself for not being able to do those things. She thinks her family would love her more, or that Catelyn would have been more willing to ransom her, if she was more feminine and could do those things.

On the other hand, you have Sansa who wishes that Arya was a bastard and that she could have another - more feminine - sister.

Why couldn't Arya be sweet and delicate and kind, like Princess Marcella? She would have liked a sister like that.

Sansa could never understand how two sisters, born only two years apart, could be so different. It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their Lady mother in her face or her coloring. And Jon's mother had been common, or so people whispered. Once, when she was littler, Sansa had even asked Mother if perhaps there hadn't been some mistake. Perhaps the grumkins had stolen her real sister.

- Sansa I, AGoT

Sansa is ashamed of Arya for being a tomboy instead of being more feminine.

They don't know me, Arya realized. They don't even know I'm a girl. Small wonder; she was barefoot and dirty, her hair tangled from the long run through the castle, clad in a jerkin ripped by cat claws and brown rough-spun pants hacked off above her scabby knees. You don't wear skirts and silks when you're catching cats. Quickly she lowered her head and dropped to one knee. Maybe they wouldn't recognize her. If they did, she would never hear the end of it. Septa Mordane would be mortified, and Sansa would never speak to her again from the shame.

- Arya III, AGoT

Sansa attacks Arya for not being good at something traditionally feminine.

Sansa threw her head back in disdain. "You?" You couldn't sew a dress fit to clean the pigsties."

- Sansa III, AGoT

Sansa thinks that Arya was unsatisfactory as a sister because she wasn't feminine.

Sister. Sansa had once dreamt of having a sister like Margaery; beautiful and gentle, with all the world's graces at her command. Arya had been entirely unsatisfactory as sisters went.

- Sansa II, ASoS

Now where does Sansa get her sexism from? Catelyn (and Septa Mordane).

Arya wonders if her family would even want to ransom her because she's not traditionally feminine.

"What if my brother doesn't want to ransom me?"

"Why would you think that?" asked Lord Beric.

"Well," Arya said, "my hair's messy and my nails are dirty and my feet are all hard." Robb wouldn't care about that, probably, but her mother would. Lady Catelyn always wanted her to be like Sansa, to sing and dance and sew and mind her courtesies.

- Arya VII, ASoS

Catelyn telling Arya she could be pretty...if only she were more feminine.

Her mother used to say she could be pretty if she would just wash and brush her hair and take more care with her dress, the way her sister did. To her sister and sister's friends and all the rest, she had just been Arya Horseface. 

- The Blind Girl, ADwD

[ai-manre]

❌ Jon and Sansa look like NedCat and therefore they will recreate NedCat romance:

- boring

- uninspired

- doesn't work

- Catelyn emotionally abused Jon

- what's the point of recreating something which already worked successfully the first time around?

✅ Jon and Daenerys look like genderbent Rhaelya and they will recreate Rhaelya romance:

- grand

- inspiring

- works thematically

- gives Jon a connection to his own parents

- becomes a positive parallel to Rhaelya's love. Aka a love that triggered a war vs a love that will save the world from extinction. They will succeed where their predecessors failed

- blue rose has featured as a motif in both Rhaelya and Jonerys in book canon

[decadentbutterflies]

No, it's about the brain rot of Sansa stans calling Dany evil and a colonizer etc. Or erasing/diminishing Sansa bullying Arya when we bring that up that she's not exactly kind, only when she wants to be.

Acting like Sansa is a perfect fit for a queen instead because she's kind and "everyone she touches becomes kinder" while she slowly poisons a child, her own cousin (she was even warned about how it hurts the boy) and then going "me and father have more important things to worry about", who's mother was murdered by the man she covers. Being classist...

You could argue that she does it out of fear (which I agree with except the feasts and classist behavior ofc). She is not "kind" like an average person would be. She isn't evil, but calling her kind and then acting like Dany isn't and calling Daenerys a tyrant is mind blowing. Dany personally feeds refugees and genuinely does her best to help people, while Miss Sansa throws feasts while the common folk is starving.

And the argument is... She killed slavers.. Oh noo, how dare she.

Also Sansa's bullying is another reason why people don't see her as kind (validly), but again people love to erase that and diminish it.

Or do even THIS lmao. I just knew there's going to be something "Arya is mean, Arya is bad" in the comments.

Yes, because Arya bullied her so much, like throwing peach on her after Sansa was her classist self (this was Arya's reply to Sansa saying "once she's the queen Arya will have to bow down to her" btw. she ain't becoming a follower like some fans wish for her to be).

She was bullied so much that she has trauma that she doesn't even believe when others tell her she's pretty. Sansa felt sooo out of place in Winterfell and lonely (not like she had any friends that followed with the bullying..) :'((

But thankfully we have Jon who's going to save her and marry her because he just LOVES the "waiting for someone to save her" type of girl! He can't stop talking about that kind of woman lmao.

Ofc. A Jonsa and Catelyn fan account lmao.

I can't make this sht up. That show should've never been made, I'm sorry, but it brought so many morons combining the show into the books and completely changed how fanon sees many of the characters.

[jackoshadows]

I love all the cute 'Why do people hate Jonsa so much' anon questions to Jonsa blogs when there is an entire 'anti-Jonsa' tag they could just browse through to get their answers.

It's not about getting an actual answer but asking this to an echo chamber for bias confirmation on how the bad meanies are unfairly hating on their crackship!

And the funny thing is that the answer to such questions actually gives us the reason for why Jonsa is such a hate filled ship deserving of mockery and why some of us are only responding to that hate.

Answer:

Say the same folks who take and take and take and use every single aspect of the Jon/Arya relationship for their crackship. Maybe these idiots should first stop bringing out the original outline for their crackship?

I mean, look at this nonsense!

So Stark-Tully and Targ-Stark doesn't work with Arya?! Doesn't she have literally the same frigging parents as Sansa?

How did Jonsa get popular when the show was on? Because shippers were straight up using Jon's thoughts of Arya for Sansa - just straight up copy pasting. Like, look at this 2019 post!

First of all, I love how this person pretends to be a 'non-shipper' lmfao.

Second, 'Pointy end'? How dare you!

Then there's made up fanfiction that straight up erases Jon's angst about his bastardy - a central point of his entire story - and his bond with Arya due to their outsider status and make that about Sansa.

If their two brain cells actually worked they would realize that using everything from the Jon/Arya relationship to argue for Jonsa means that they are actually making a case for Jonarya!

However their tradfem brains are so fried with sexism and misogyny and hate for the other female characters that they can only keep their crackship alive by shoving their self-insert fave into the plot/story/relationships of other characters.

These people are all 'Stark sister's foreva!' but they hate, hate Arya and want her gone from Winterfell at the end of the series.

They 'love' Arya so much they want her to be the Northern Oberyn dammit! (Kicking her out of home and family under the guise of 'Freedom')

Also Arya is scary now!

They also want Arya to kill the other female character they hate!

Speaking of Daenerys, apparently the Jonsa hate is also because Jonsa shippers are the OG Dany haters!

Imagine bragging about being the pioneers of spewing some of the most vile, vulgar, utterly sexist, anti feminist, women hating, patriarchal, bigoted hatred against a fictional female character for the crime of getting in the way of your utterly idiotic, totally shite, vanilla, bland, boring crackship.

I have been in many fandoms in the past and pol!Jon has to be one of the ugliest, misogyistic hate I have seen towards the lead female character where women are theorizing and fantasizing about the male protagonist inflicting domestic violence and murdering his partner after seducing/manipulating her.

Imagine bring proud of that... They should be in the shame cube for that nonsense!

[jonsaforeshadowing]

jonsa foreshadowing of the day: Sam and Satin are BOTH stand-ins for Sansa