#sansa meta

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

I really hate that Jon//sa shippers have equate Sansa's Alayne Stone arc to Jon Snow believing he's a bastard. Because those two characters experience totally different situations.

Even if Jon is at some point revealed to be a Targaryen prince ( which isn't confirmed for all we know he could still be a Targaryen bastard) it won't change the fact that for the first 17 years of his life he lived with the bastard stigma. Nor it would magically erase the feeling of not belonging he felt on his own home due to his status and the way his father's wife was treating him.

Meanwhile, Sansa has lived her whole life knowing she's a noble lady and even now she's posing as Alayne she still knows that she's a Stark of Winterfell. It's different to pretend to be a bastard than to actually believe your whole life to be one.

And since I usually focus my meta on Jon, let's focus this one on Sansa and describe how, in my humble opinion, I believe this comparison is unfair for her, too.

Sansa's biggest problem right now isn't that she pretends to be a bastard. Actually, that's hardly an issue for her considering that Petyr, who poses as her father, treat her like the lady of the house and allows her to have all the comforts ladies of noble heritage have. Her biggest problem is that she has to live with that predator, who half fantasises she's the daughter he could have with his beloved Cat and half views her as the idealised younger version of his beloved Cat. And honestly, living with a creepy pedo is one of the worst things a teenage kid could have to deal with.

Returning to her Alayne Stone persona, I do believe that Martin choose her to pretend to be a bastard for a reason. But that has nothing to do with Jon Snow or any other character fans ship her with. Shocking I know, but asoiaf female characters exist outside of your preferred pairings and some-most!- of their plotlines exist to cater themselves alone.

Sansa grew up with an narrow view of the world most Westerosi noble girls usually have. When Joffrey and Cersei showed their true colors and her father died, her fantasies were shattered but she continued to have a narrow view of the world as she was still a noble who right then was also a hostage. By making her pretend to be a bastard while she's in Eyrie, Martin has given her the opportunity to associate and talk with a larger variety of people than she could have as a noble lady. Also, by temporarily changing her status, she's given the opportunity to witness how things work for those who are less fortunate than those who are born nobles - even if this happens only on a theoretical level bc as I said above practically she's still enjoying the benefits of nobility. I do believe this experience of hers will enrich her view of the world and add even more layers to the already complex personality Martin has crafted for her. And I do believe it's a shame to diminish that for the sake of a crack ship.

[jozor-johai]

Understading Sansa: how Songs make Culture in Westeros

Or: Life is not a Song, Sansa & Littlefinger, Part 0.

I'm working on something about Sansa and Littlefinger, but I realized: before we even start talking about Sansa, we have to understand where she's starting from. So this is sort of a prologue to that post (or posts), but this really stands alone as its own idea, so I'm doing something unusual for myself and sharing this before I finish the rest of it.

This examination of song could be a series in its own right, and maybe it should be, and perhaps even this is too quick an overview. Nevertheless, understanding Sansa requires at least a brief exploration into the place of songs in Westerosi culture. Besides Mordane’s intentional training, Sansa, like all people, is also surrounded by passive societal training which describes the roles she is supposed to play in life, even when not explicitly. This is culture, and the songs of Westeros all collectively build it, establishing expectations and defining what is “normal.” 

long-ish post so rest is under the cut

Tyrion even notes the way that children’s media helps form and reinforce cultural knowledge, though not directly in regard to song. He points out that the game “Come-into-my-Castle” is one way to passively introduce social lessons and cultural information into children's lives:

Come-into-my-castle was a game for highborn children, one meant to teach them courtesy, heraldry, and a thing or two about their lord father's friends and foes. (ADWD Tyrion IX)

But this is happening constantly, and even when the lessons are not being intentionally considered.

The Dornishman's Wife

The Dornishman’s Wife, for example, contains the encoded information that a man would kill another man for kissing his wife; therefore the song builds on the idea that wives are expected to be physically loyal to their lord husbands. Also, that for some reason (likely their status as effectively property), a woman's lack of perceived agency means they lack culpability, and that such infidelity is therefore justly punished through the killing of the other man involved—and so normalcy is regained and the story concluded. We might even say that because the characters are only the “Dornishman” and the undescribed protagonist, that the song is based on the idea of an otherized “Dornish.” (ASOS Jon I)

Off to Gulltown

Off to Gulltown tells a similar tale about women’s agency: it describes a man who will visit “Gulltown to see a fair maid” from whom he will “steal a kiss with the point of my blade” and then he will “make her my love.” (ASOS Arya II) All of these, again, are demands of the man in forming relations with a woman, and once again, this song explicitly combines the threat of violence with that of love. Here, there is no other man—the subject of the man’s violence is the woman herself. So, this song teaches that a man will threaten a woman with violence in order to get what he wants, and offers no information whatsoever about the intentions of the woman. The desires of the woman in this story are effectively irrelevant, which is messaging in itself: the man wants what he wants, and the woman comes with.

Knights

The preoccupation with knights in song similarly comes with this implicit threat of violence—knights carry swords, and when swords are not busy standing in as metaphoric phalluses, swords are... swords, and anyone around them need beware.

Any story of a knight that rescues a maiden carries with it the combined messaging of the previous two songs. On one hand, any sword and any knight potentially provides protection against other men, keeping the maiden from other, future violent advances. In practice, as in song, this is more for the man’s interest than the woman’s, as evident in The Dornishman’s Wife, which also makes no mention of the woman’s desires (though the protagonist of that tale certainly believes she was asking for it). On the other hand, that same sword can be used against that woman, as is the case in Off to Gulltown, and so that ‘rescue’ may not be so safe after all (much like Sansa's own trip to the Vale... hmm...) The songs reinforce the truth of the world. For men, knights make for great stories if you can be a knight. For women, the lesson is what to expect: being with a knight means accepting certain realities. 

Which perhaps creates a void to be filled by songs that reinforce “normal” by recounting the abnormal.

Florian and Jonquil

We don’t get any text from the tale of Florian and Jonquil, but the distinctive thing about that tale is that while Florian is a knight, but he is also a fool, first. This contradiction, in being a contradiction, also reinforces the “normal” state of things: if it is special that Florian is a fool, then the default circumstances are for knights to be… well, simply knights. Here, it’s significant the ways in which Florian is less than the average knight: he is not of noble birth, he dresses in iron motley. This affects how he is perceived as a knight. He perhaps seems less threatening—but is that a bad thing, for his perceived reduced ability to protect? Or is that a good thing, for his perceived reduced capacity (or reduced desire) to harm Jonquil after saving her? Of course, his magic sword probably helps too—no matter whether that’s a magic sword or a magic sword (wink wink). Florian is a different kind of man: he is as chivalric as a knight, with all the associated honor, but perhaps without the same menacing air of presumed violence.

The Bear and the Maiden Fair

Similarly, The Bear and the Maiden Fair helps shape the narrative of “normal” by describing a situation which is anything butl:

Foremost, The Bear and the Maiden Fair stands out as a particularly unusual song by the standards of Westeros because the end of the song is told from the maiden’s point of view—and the female gaze in Westerosi stories is a rare thing indeed. In this son, the maiden explicitly explains what is normal what isn't: “I called for a knight, but you're a bear!” (ASOS Sansa I).

This song is built on—and in being retold, further reinforces—the idea of a maiden who must normally want a knight... and yet knights come with swords, and so come with risks as well as rewards. The Bear, like Florian, is not the usual kind of savior, but in the opposite way as Florian: the Bear has taken no knightly vows of chivalry, and is bound by no code of honor. In fact, the Bear appears is in every way more violent than we might expect a knight to be, not just for his lack of knightly code but also for his… animal tendencies.

Considering that, it’s paramount that here we’ve been given—for once—the insight into the Maiden’s perspective: by the end of the encounter, she comes to trust the Bear, despite her initial misgivings, and goes with him willingly. This factor alone makes the story of the Bear stand out against any stories we’ve heard about men with swords, and the sexual undertone of this song is no less an essential factor of this scenario than it is in Off to Gulltown. The Bear does not need to have a sword, metaphorical or otherwise. (This is why Brienne makes for such a good Bear to Jaime, too). The Bear is powerful enough to protect the Maiden… and, despite lacking a sword, is capable enough to please her, too. Rather than ending in penetration, this song ends in cunnilingus: 

She kicked and wailed, the maid so fair / But he licked the honey from her hair / Her hair! Her hair! /He licked the honey from her hair! / Then she sighed and squealed and kicked the air! / My bear! She sang. My bear so fair! / And off they went, from here to there

Which is both an assertion that the Bear can provide in every way that a knight could, sword or no, and is also a willing act of deference, rather than demand: the Bear wins over the Maiden by giving, rather than taking—a far cry from Off to Gulltown, where the man "steals" a kiss at knifepoint. But again, because the Bear is so expressly not a knight, and because the Maiden asked for a knight, this is not the “normal” expectation for a maiden.  

The Mother

Finally, in in another field entirely from these tales of knights and maidens, Sansa herself provides the song that encodes the expectation and desires of a Mother:

Gentle Mother, font of mercy, save our sons from war, we pray, stay the swords and stay the arrows, let them know a better day. Gentle Mother, strength of women, help our daughters through this fray, soothe the wrath and tame the fury, teach us all a kinder way.

This song in particular comes at a significant moment for Sansa, but even without that context this corroborates our expectations from the other songs about men—this song too is helping to build the total unified culture for Westeros to be learned and understood by those who live within it.  

Mothers have the “strength of women”—a strength that this song clearly delineates as separate from war, and rather of peace and the promise of something “better.” In the second verse, this is also the strength of mentorship, because this still will not change, nor does the song expect it to. Part of the Mother’s task is to teach her daughters how to exist amidst the “fray” of life.

While it is a noble and strong pursuit to “how to live a kinder way,” the fact that half the song is dedicated to relaying this skill to the next generation implicitly signals and admits that despite the Mother aiming for a “better day" and despite the Mother’s desire to “stay the swords,” the daughters are inevitably also going to have the same exact task when they themselves become Mothers. Like all of the other cultural touchstones I’ve discussed, this is a song which maintains the status quo; this is the eternal task of Mothers, and it will be the future for their daughters.

With that interpretation, there is also a subtle message about a woman’s ability to enact change in the world: they will "pray" for their sons to stop fighting but "help" their daughters to last through it anyway. The men, ultimately, are not beholden to the wishes of the mother—these are just prayers—and the daughters must be prepared to practice the same mercy as their mothers, because the men will never learn it from them.

Olenna Tyrell has lived long enough to know the truth of it:

All these kings would do a deal better if they would put down their swords and listen to their mothers. (ASOS Sansa I) 

But Catelyn understands the futility of this:

He wants me gone, Catelyn thought wearily. Kings are not supposed to have mothers, it would seem, and I tell him things he does not want to hear. (ACOK Catelyn I)

Kings are not supposed to have mothers... because the idea of Kingship has already been encoded and disseminated across the kingdom in the form of song and story. No king in song can have a mother, because it's tantamount to the institution of monarchy that the cultural perception of a King is omnipotent with no need to heed to anyone. Here, this cultural understanding of what a king is supposed to be supersedes the actual, lived reality of Catelyn and her son: despite being mother to Robb, it is impossible for either of them overcome the culturally enforced impossibility of being mother to a king.

Conclusions

It's not only Catelyn who struggles against the inability to cope with the fact that her lived experience is being altered by the perception of what is supposed to happen. Cultural expectations of "normal" work for some and not others. Those underrepresented in song are undescribed, and as a result, not understood. Sansa, who does identify with the songs and culture of Westeros, has no foundation for understanding Arya, who has always existed outside of those cultural expectations. 

This struggle to exist against the collective mythologies that constitute culture remains omnipresent throughout the books. It is a factor in everyone’s story, and though most songs give men agency where women have none, men are no more able to escape the limitations of song than women are.

Jon and Robb experiment with the future ramifications of their differing status through the legendary roles they adopt in play—Jon can’t be Lord of Winterfell, neither in make-believe nor in reality. Bran, now unable to walk, is therefore unable to meet his own expectations that he believed possible based on the stories he was told, and these stories of knighthood are such an integral driving force in his real life that he travels north of the Wall for the express purpose of regaining his legs so he can be a knight. Brienne lives the worst of both worlds—she does not believe she can be a traditional mother, but no more can she replace Galladan, her perfect brother made perfect by never truly existing except as his perfect namesake, the knight of song. These are not the only examples of characters struggling against the expectations that common culture has dictated for them, and several characters in ASOIAF parse their ability or inability to relate to these expectations through the lens of song. The list goes on—Victarion and his reaving songs; Euron and his pastiche of piracy; Sam, who sings to Gilly, fighting against his father's ideas; the impossible weight of the legendary predecessors to Jaime, Barristan, and Arys.

Sansa

The only thing setting Sansa apart from everyone else in this regard is the intensity of her belief in the actual truth of these songs and the degree to which these songs and stories guide her actions and expectations. In this way, though, Sansa is not unique in her belief in the power of songs, she is simply the story's quintessential explorer of this theme.

All of this analysis of song is just context for Sansa's world when she meets Sandor Clegane and Littlefinger in the early chapters of AGOT. For rest of her story, Sansa goes on to interpret King’s Landing—and her place in it—through her knowledge of songs, and these songs are so familiar to her that she “knows all of the words,” as Sandor says. From the very start, though, she knows what to say, how to act, and even more importantly: what to want. 

And yet Littlefinger tells her “life is not a song.” How could that possibly be, after all this? These songs may be a misinterpretation of life in some ways, but at the same time, life is made by songs.

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

@ihaveastorminme reblogged the post “Was there any mention of why Sansa never got high harp training...” and said:

#more and more i think that sansa's first “dancing master” was the hound. he's the one that tells her to look with her eyes and hear #with her ears #and what a savage education that was. she's gonna have other masters as well but her first one of this kind was sandor i think. #and before that - the education that suited her natural talents came from her mother and septa: courtesies are a lady's armor #she got her fitting lessons as well. they were just a different kind cause her journey would be of a different kind

Excellent addition - no need to add anything myself... ok, wait, one thing: I'd say that Littlefinger was also one of Sansa's teachers (even before he became her “father” and made her Alayne, etc), since in AGOT it's his "life is not a song" that returns to Sansa at the end. As does Sandor's "save yourself some pain and give them what they want".

However, unlike the way Syrio's aphorisms continue to be repeated by Arya for their truth and help when she needs them, I believe Sansa will learn otherwise that Littlefinger's (and yes, Sandor's too) cynical teachings are not the truth, that life can be a song (because it is, it's the song of ice and fire), that "all the stories can't be lies". More on this here, and slightly related but still relevant here.

[g0lightly]

Sansa's (possible) attraction to Mya Stone mirrors Jaime's attraction to Brienne

As part of my Briensa brainrot posting, I want to establish one of many parallels between Sansa and Jaime that may be relevant later. I think the text may be setting up Sansa’s attraction to women, specifically gender-nonconforming women like Mya. The way Sansa describes women’s appearances versus men’s appearances is more similar to straight male POV characters than to other female POV characters, as this post does a fantastic job of demonstrating. Specifically, I’d like to point out that the way Sansa thinks about Mya in her men’s clothing mirrors the way we initially see Jaime think about Brienne in hers. 

[Mya] could be pretty, if she would dress up like a girl. Alayne found herself wondering whether Ser Lothor liked her best in her iron and leather, or dreamed of her gowned in lace and silk. - Alayne II, AFFC

As the above post also points out, Sansa has to contextualize her potential attraction to a woman — an unconventional woman at that �� through the eyes of a man as it’s not ladylike to have such thoughts about other ladies. Later in this chapter she repeats this question to Myranda Royce, excited to have an older girl to ask such a question.

“Do you think Ser Lothor likes [Mya] as she is, in mail and leather?” She asked the older girl, who seemed so worldly-wise. “Or does he dream of her draped in silks and velvets?” “He’s a man. He dreams of her naked.” She is trying to make me blush again. - Alayne II, AFFC

Sansa is so curious about this that I have to wonder if Ser Lothar is indeed the one with a crush. Mirroring Jaime, she goes from imagining her unconventional crush in her men’s clothing to imagining her in the kind of clothing she understands to be beautiful. And then she’s prompted to picture her naked.

He amused himself by picturing her in one of Cersei’s silken gowns in place of her studded leather jerkin. As well dress a cow in silk as this one.  - Jaime I, ASOS

Afterward, Jaime jokingly (or not so jokingly) asks Brienne to remove her clothes to prove that she is a woman. This is a much more cruel and direct sequence of thoughts/interactions than what we see with Sansa and Mya, though that’s fitting of Jaime and Sansa’s characters at these very different places in their respective arcs. Nevertheless, both are characters used to being valued for their conventional beauty (and their ability to conform to gender roles) attempting to understand their own interest in unconventional beauty that does not conform to gender roles. 

[sayruq]

What’s the deal with Arya fans pretending Sansa stans are the ones who like to downplay Arya’s suffering as if it wasn’t the other way around? They project so much, it’s unbelievable. They say we claim Arya looks down on traditional femininity. I can only speak for myself, but I’ve read lots of metas written by Sansa stans that acknowledge Arya respects women in general. That’s why I hate the way so many people condescendingly write post saying that “it’s okay to love both sisters” “you don’t have to put the other down just to prop your fave up”. As if both sisters receive the same amount of hate. Well, I think it’s also okay to NOT love both sisters and have a favorite one. I hate how many bloggers pretend to like Sansa when they obviously don’t (sansabuts) and pretend Arya is not a extremely loved and popular character (there’s nothing wrong with that) and Sansa is not a controversial one, that many people love, but it’s still misunderstood by lots of readers as a shallow, selfish and weak girl. It’s just so mean spirited.

What’s the deal with Arya fans pretending Sansa stans are the ones who like to downplay Arya’s suffering as if it wasn’t the other way around?

They want to be us so badly it makes them look stupid.

There's over a decade of metas on why

people shouldn't downplay Sansa's suffering

people should respect and appreciate Sansa's strengths including her intelligence, charm, wit, resilience, etc

people should understand that being feminine isn't bad at all even in a fantasy book.

etc etc

Arya stans just copy and paste and then point the finger at us ☠️.

The meanest things I've seen Sansa stans say regularly is #shipgirl or making fun of Arya for not knowing sigils.

Arya stans will wake up and say the most misogynistic thing you've ever heard in your life. The kind of shit that would make a 4chan incel blush.

I hate how many bloggers pretend to like Sansa when they obviously don’t (sansabuts) and pretend Arya is not a extremely loved and popular character (there’s nothing wrong with that) and Sansa is not a controversial one, that many people love, but it’s still misunderstood by lots of readers as a shallow, selfish and weak girl. It’s just so mean spirited.

I think a big reason those stans have been so pissed off the past couple of years is because Sansa is no longer the controversial character. She's fairly popular these days among book readers. It's no longer commonplace for people to sprout hate towards her (outside of certain fanbases). People like her and people appreciate her the way they didn't in the 90s and 2000s. It helps that the show indicated where Sansa will end up - on the Northern throne after returning to Winterfell and playing a key role in defeating the Boltons (Ramsay or Roose, take your pick).

Sansa is no longer in Arya's shadow, she's not the 'irrelevant' Stark. She has her own fierce fandom. She clearly has an exciting story in the next two books. She's arguably the one who won the Game of Thrones. All those theories about Sansa marrying the Hound and disappearing from the story or Sansa staying in the Vale no longer read like viable theories but antis coping.

[cynicalclassicist]

Aye, that is true. No matter what a lady does in this society she can't fit in the role.

Something that feels skipped over in the perception of Sansa is that she also struggles to fit into gender roles. A lot of her hobbies are feminine and she fits a lot better than most, but in the first book she still struggles with being a lady. She feels embarrassed over not being good with numbers when its needed to run a house as a lady, she gets scolded for arguing with her sister and her father and for talking about beheadings. She has to constantly remind herself of her courtseys and to be a lady. Because even though everyone else sees her as one, it still isn't enough because the ideal of lady is impossible. Because there is no correct way to be a woman in a misogynistic society.

[babybells123]

‘Cersei and Joffrey and the general trauma Sansa suffers leads her down a path of hating herself in the same way Cersei does; hating her naivety, partly wanting to shame others who are still like that as a means to project it outwards and yet she never quite does. And not only is that a triumph of her empathy in the face of her situation but it is also a triumph of belief in herself; still seeing goodness within herself rather than just something to shame and attack the way everyone makes her internalise. If these other people deserve empathy, even when part of her does feel the opposite, if they still deserve empathy, so does she. I think all of this tells us she did have a lot of loving experiences from her parents growing up. That as much as she might feel self-hatred a lot of the time there is still a little voice in there saying ‘no you deserve more, you are more than they say.’ At many points it’s a very faint, faint voice in this story but what’s important is that it is there.’

Oh my god. He gets it. I really think the entire asoiaf fandom should watch this video. I mean, op is a child therapist - of course he has a better grasp of her complexity than half the freaking fandom.

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

Are Jon and Sansa both "idealists" on AGOT that have their dreams being crushed?

(This meta was inspired by a conversation I had with @docpiplup )

I've seen a couple of posts claiming that Jon and Sansa go through parallel arcs on AGOT because "both have idealistic dreams which get crashed". I do like all the Starklings and I find interesting pointing out parallels - even underrated ones - between any combination of them however in this case I find the parallel rather shallow.

First of all, let me begin by saying that Jon, Sansa AND BRAN ( who often is forgotten in order to make this parallel only about his older siblings) all express an ambition of theirs at the beginning of the first book. Jon wants to join the Night's Watch, Sansa wants to go to the South and become the Queen and Bran to become a knight.

Sansa and Bran's ambitions are more related because their ideal scenarios are inspired by the South and their mother's culture. Meanwhile, the Night's Watch is considered a respectable choice only on the North and Jon, the sole sibling raised only by a Northern parent couldn't possibly have a southern ambition.

In my opinion, what makes Jon's "dream" different than those of his younger siblings is the position he occupies within the family. Let me elaborate. Sansa and Bran are two well cared and sheltered kids living in a loving environment who are allowed to have their big dream (and honestly? Good for them, that's how kids on their age should be allowed to be). Plus, those are the two Starks who love reading fairy tales and I would describe romantic at heart.

Even if their dreams won't come true they will still have a bright future ahead of them (even if Sansa doesn't travel South and doesn't become Joffrey's queen, her father would arrange for her a noble marriage of her status/ even if Bran doesn't become a knight, he would still be welcomed to his father's and later to his brother's council and he could also have a noble marriage with lands to rule).

Unlike them, Jon feels unwelcome to Winterfell ( mostly bc of how the Castle's lady is treating him). He needs to make his life somewhere else. But what are his options? His father didn't make him apprentice of a craftsman so one day he could have a job of his own to make his living. Instead he was given a lording's education alongside his brothers - but bc of his bastard status, he's not expected to rule anything- and he was trained at the sword. Living in the North were sellsword companies and knights don't exist, becoming a Black Brother was the only road for him. So for Jon, wishing to join the Night's Watch isn't a romantic dream but instead the only solution a realistic teen could come up with.

Here are his own thoughts right after he tells his uncle he wants to join the Night's Watch:

He had thought on it long and hard, lying abed at night while his brothers slept around him. Robb would someday inherit Winterfell, would command great armies as the Warden of the North. Bran and Rickon would be Robb's bannermen and rule holdfasts in his name. His sisters Arya and Sansa would marry the heirs of other great houses and go south as mistress of castles of their own. But what place could a bastard hope to earn?

And since this meta is getting too long I won't gointo detail and describe how Jon and Sansa react once their dreams get crushed (maybe I'll make a part two of this meta someday?). I'll just say that once again they have totally different reactions. Which is to be expected since those two siblings are very different in terms of personality.

[knightingale]

The "Sansa reminds Sandor of his sister" motive that some people try to hitch to his character really just flies in the face of his actual attachments to her, doesn't it? Sansa reminds Sandor of himself. He sees the little boy who used to love knights in this girl who's been swept up by the same romanticism. He sees his abuser in her abusers, the much larger knight(s) beating on the helpless child. He sees how she is betrayed by every level of authority that should have saved her and remembers his father's neglect and Tywin and Robert's apathy for Gregor's crimes. He's protective of Sansa because he was Sansa.

And GRRM's design, that one of the strongest warriors in the series, a fearsome and cynical 6'8" guy who's "muscled like a bull" and has the face of death itself, sees himself in this soft and effeminate teen girl, and empathizes with her because he was an abuse victim too, is INFINITELY more compelling than "Oh yeah I bet she just reminds him of his sister," who he's never mentioned and who we know literally nothing about. Way to unnecessarily water down a character, you couldn't have ignored the black and white text more efficiently if you tried.

[sailor-hufflepuff]

Honestly, this is more proof to me that Sansa is not simply naturally easy going and ladylike- rather, that this is something she works at, because she has been taught that it’s important.

I’m intrigued by the idea that Ned knew Sansa would likely go South for her marriage, and so was much more strict with her, and then - feeling guilty - overcompensated by letting Arya run wild without consequence.

Yk, now that I think about it again, it's wild that Sansa has a reputation for being weak or simple minded or whatever when like

She tamed a direwolf. At, like, 11. The patience and discipline to accomplish that? Granted, Lady's only a pup, but Nymeria at the Trident is proof that even at that age those wolves can be really dangerous. Again, she got a wild animal with fangs and claws, a magical beast that could have grown to the size of a horse, to eat out of her hands delicately. Like a queen.

And I know part of that is due to the magical connection between the Starks and their wolves influencing each other's behavior, but almost all the other wolves exhibit some degree of wildness. But Lady? No. She might have, eventually, but her time is cut short.

[ladystoneboobs]

imo one of the biggest proofs of sansa's character growth post-agot (which seems to be overlooked) is this, where grrm makes sure we know how her perspective of the trident incident has indeed shifted. why else even say this? it's not what the tyrells wanted to know, they asked about joff's treatment of her in particular, and "he lied about the butcher's boy" means nothing without context (and even if she said the lannisters used that lie to justify killing mycah, i doubt olenna, at least, would care). but for sansa atp, joffrey's sins against mycah are worth remembering and reporting as his first crime (known to her), that incident is now recognized as evidence of joff's montrosity, the wrongs committed against mycah by joffrey personally (as in not even his death) are on par with sansa losing her wolf and being beaten by the kg. sure, she still has some classism remaining, but to say she cares nothing for the smallfolk, and is still the same girl disgusted by mycah's smellyness, who later repeated joffrey's lie about him weeks after the fact and blamed arya for lady's death more than joffrey, that's just demonstrably untrue.

[g0lightly]

help! i found sansa + brienne parallels to true knighthood via barristan selmy + sandor clegane (mostly) planted in ACOK and i can't get up!

as i have previously written, brienne and sansa both keep blood-stained kingsguard cloaks that come into their possession during ACOK. analogous to maiden cloaks, i read these cloaks as symbolizing two idealistic characters facing the brutal reality that the "protector" institutions they have looked up to (knighthood, primarily) their entire lives do not live up to their ideals. while marriage is certainly an institution that has failed to protect both of these characters, i don't read cloaks as an inherent marriage symbol. if we get sansa putting sandor's former cloak on brienne after she gets the hound's helm from lem that's another story but at the end of the day i think it's significant that sansa wrapped herself in sandor's cloak; he simply dropped it as he did with his kingsguard duties, he did not put it on her as is done in a marriage ceremony.

while the brienne parallels to barristan are more obvious, there is also a very direct parallel between sansa and barristan in ACOK i just noticed that knocked me off my feet a bit: both sansa and barristan plead with the cruel king they were sworn to in order to stop that king from executing dontos hollard because they recognize that he is defenseless. when dontos was a child, barristan plead with king aerys to spare him when he executed the rest of house hollard. of course, barristan was sworn to aerys as a knight and sansa was sworn to joffrey as his betrothed; i think this just drives home the potential for brienne and sansa to wield their complementary abilities for their own cause like a nontoxic version of cersei and jaime (the subject of a forthcoming essay that examines wuthering heights and arthurian allusions in asoiaf).

this connects to a more obvious parallel between brienne and barristan that is set up when we meet brienne through catelyn. i've always thought there has to be some significance to the fact that brienne's place on renly's kingsguard was originally meant to go to barristan selmy, a character who is presented in-universe as the closest thing to a living true knight. as is the nature of true knighthood in this series, however, it's debatable if this can apply to him given his service to aerys while he abused rhaella. through catelyn and later jaime (via loras) we learn that renly made a few assumptions when he gave the blue knight position to brienne:

renly assumed that barristan had gone on to serve robb as king in the north instead of himself; in reality, we know that barristan went off to essos where he took on a false identity to serve dany out of loyalty to house targaryen.

renly thought that brienne would not live long, given her willingness to die for him, implying that he believed her position would be open for someone he'd see as more worthy in the future. once again, in reality we know that actually renly died and brienne lived on, guilty that she did not have the chance to die for him as they both seemingly wanted.

i believe this sets up two major themes for brienne's character: 1) that a true knight's loyalty cannot be bound by the powers that be 2) brienne's connection to death/the stranger. as i also touch on in the post linked above, i think that brienne is foreshadowed to become the next hound after lem (an idea explored in my fic!) which is another stranger-coded persona connected to the idea of true knighthood. sandor clegane is also the person who fills the vacancy that barristan leaves.

similar to what sandor does with his own cloak during the battle of the blackwater, barristan throws his white cloak at joffrey's feet during his dismissal scene and Sansa later kneels before it to plead for her father's life. given that sandor was barristan's replacement, i read the cloak that sandor leaves with sansa as an extension of the cloak that barristan abandoned in front of sansa when she plead for ned's life. extrapolating from this, i think that brienne will ultimately be a balance between sandor and barristan in her knightly capacity (even if she is not a knight). this also means that both sansa and brienne have a bloodstained cloak that was (symbolically) supposed to belong to barristan.

both barristan and sandor literally as well as metaphorically gave up their white cloaks (in front of sansa fwiw) with the intention to serve someone they felt they owed their service to but ultimately end up serving that person's younger family member. though barristan set out to serve viserys, he winds up serving daenerys. though sandor set out to serve sansa, he winds up serving arya. as we know, grrm likes to do things in threes -- i think there's a good chance that brienne serving sansa in catelyn's stead will be the third iteration of this pattern. and because this would be the third iteration, i imagine there will be some sort of twist such as brienne turning on lady stoneheart if she endangers sansa (another idea explored in my aforementioned fic).

additionally, it is emphasized time and time again in brienne's POV chapters that she takes her oath to catelyn even more seriously because she is dead. this provides another mirror to barristan, who is forced to re-evaluate his service to aerys' usurper after his unprecedented removal from the kingsguard. he takes on a new identity and exiles himself to essos to renew his oath to house targaryen, though not to the targaryen he expected to serve. if brienne takes on the hound's identity and serves sansa, that would certainly rhyme nicely with barristan's trajectory.

i think the role of the stranger/death is important because brienne has to kill the idea of what a knight is supposed to be just as sansa has to kill the idea of what a lady is supposed to be (RIP lady, that's the real meaning of her death imo). when lem tells brienne that the hound (meaning himself) will kill her and when brienne tells jaime that the hound will kill sansa, what if that is setting up brienne and sansa letting their ideal knight and lady selves die to become something they get to define for themselves? this would also provide a contrast with cersei and jaime, who served as mentor figures to sansa and brienne respectively in the role that they want to fulfill (queen for sansa, knight for brienne). both lannisters show their respective younger idealist counterparts the dark side of the future they initially want for themselves.

obviously i do ship brienne x sansa assuming things happen on an age appropriate timeline; tbh i thought they had chemistry on the show and now i'm spiraling about their parallels in the books which are also sending their characters in a much more compelling direction. but at the end of the day i don't think these textual allusions have to be romantic! same goes for plenty of other ships involving brienne and sansa that i won't name here bc 1) i appreciate some of them thematically 2) i don't want to invoke the shippers' wrath! sometimes characters are important in each other's arcs (i 1000% believe this will be the case for brienne and sansa) but that doesn't equal a romantic endgame. however i also fully believe that brienne as sansa's true love and true knight would be a beautifully subversive yet text-supported culmination of several main themes in the series (yet another essay on this to come). grrm has not been the best with wlw stuff in POV format but fire and blood has (perhaps foolishly) given me a hope that something like this could be done well 🥹

[sayruq]

Is the person who made that post about comparing the stark girls to their parents a hater? You and the other fans seem to be mad at them. Personally, I didn’t read anything malicious in the original post. But I can understand your reaction if it’s based on previous things they said.

I don't know them, I've never seen them before but you have to understand Arya stans have a long habit of working themselves into a fury over anything that we say about Sansa (or any other character but mostly Sansa). They live to micromanage our fandom and people's perception of Sansa.

If we spend a week discussing Sansa and tourneys, for example, by the following week they'll be in Sansa's tag going on about how tourneys are awful, how Sansa is so dumb for enjoying a national past time, and how she's wasting resources by organising one, nevermind that the whole point is to bring the Vale together and by doing this, many players in the Vale now know what she looks like, idk I think that could be important later on (like, say, if she ever needs an army).

How is comparing Sansa to her father a problem? How are we flattening both characters? I'd say the opposite is true. It brought a bigger spotlight on how Ned copes with trauma and Robert's behaviour because that's how Sansa deals with trauma and Joffrey. It showed how carefully GRRM has weaved that coping mechanism into both characters and how Sansa is slowly but surely working to overcome it so she can escape Ned's fate. And that's just one thing they both share, there are others.

The only reason OP and people who agree with them even care is because Sansa is the one being compared to Ned, not Arya, with the obvious implication that eventually Sansa will take on Ned's role as the ruler of the North.

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

#when people say sansa is ‘ambitious’ and did/will sell out her family for power. ohhhh don’t piss me off #nowhere in the text does sansa show a hunger for power. she wanted to be a disney princess as a kid and now ppl act like she’s machiavelli #sansa’s desire to be queen was always a desire to be loved. and again SANSA’S DESIRE TO BE QUEEN WAS ALWAYS A DESIRE TO BE LOVED‼️ #show sansa is smth else but book sansa was only ever following the path she was taught would lead to a happy life where she is valued/loved #and she has learned that there is no path that guarantees that. so now she will be focussed on navigating towards that life herself imo #which naturally will lead her back to wf and her family where she has always found love and value (via @alaynestcnes)

#she's a girl who likes songs and stories and has been told that she is a perfect little lady #and perfect little ladies get romantic songs written about them and grand stories about their lives and she hasn't LIVED #makes the pomegranate scene even more interesting she rejects the fruit that would trap her in that story #she is learning some narratives aren't for her she will not be carried away for the winter (via @olympusrox123)

it is so obvious on a second (and adult) reading that sansa doesn't love joffrey but the idea of a prince and she doesn't have a crush on loras but on the idea of a knight and she doesn't want power (whatever that means for a teenager) when she dreams of being queen, she's just trying to insert herself intentionally into that story. what a fascinating, complex, meta-narrative well constructed character

[tell-them-the-north-remembers]

If there is one line I like to over-analyze in the ASoIAF books it is a rather famous thought that goes inside Cat's head before her death. As the steel is close to her throat Cat thinks "No, don’t, don’t cut my hair, Ned loves my hair." And this line and her entire inner monologue is absolutely heart-breaking but one thing I fixate on is the actual sentence itself.

"Ned loves my hair."

Anyone who has read the books knows that Cat holds contempt for the fact that except for Arya, she has failed to give Ned children who look like him. It is also one of the reasons she dislikes Jon so much, because the mother of Jon (who she assumes to be Ned's bastard son) has managed to give Ned a child that looks just like him while she, his lawfully wedded wife gave birth to five of his children only for four of them to come out looking exactly like her. Red hair, blue eyes. Unlike Jon (and Arya) who share Ned's dark hair and dark eyes.

And knowing that it is so interesting to me that Cat's last thought about Ned (and her last thought ever) was that Ned loves her hair.

Because Ned loved her, he loved her hair, he loved her the way she was. And every time he looked at Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon he saw the reflection of the woman he loved, while Cat was so upset that they weren't all reflections of the man she loved.

Every time Ned ran his fingers through their hair, he ran his fingers through the hair of the woman he loved. He never resented Cat for the fact that four of his children didn't look like him, he loved that they looked like their mother, again, the woman he loved so much. He loved that they had the same hair he loved on Cat, and judging by it being her last thought Cat also knew that Ned loved her hair (and the way she looked), whether she ever came to the realization that Ned was perfectly happy with the way their children looked at all, or if she realized after he was dead and it was too late, it is unclear. But all those years she beat herself up over nothing.

Ned loved her the way she was, Ned loved his children the way they were, when they looked like him and when they didn't. Because when they didn't look like him, they looked like the love of his life, his darling wife.

And if the books decide to go with R+L=J it also adds another layer to Cat and Ned's relationship. Because Jon's mother was always a woman she didn't know but was still competing with in her mind for Ned's love for all these years. Turns out she didn't even exist. Turns out she didn't need to feel inferior to the woman Ned loved enough to not even talk about with her, no need to feel bad about the fact that she was able to give Ned a child that looked like him while Cat "failed".

At the end of the day, all the voices in her head making her feel insecure in her marriage never needed to be there, because everything she thought of as a problem with her were not problems at all for Ned. He was perfectly happy with her and their children.

[g0lightly]

not to give the sansa haters who want arya to be queen simply bc they hate sansa any credence, but i actually love the idea of sansa being more of the visenya/rhaena figure by the end of the series while arya is the rhaenys/alysanne. that's not to say i want her depressed in harrenhal like rhaena - i want her to be a cool gay witch who seizes power outside of the structure she's been in all this time! i think these characters show a pattern of an elder sister bucking the rules when she realizes her duty doesn't guarantee a good outcome and i very much think sansa is on her way to that same realization. i think that's a major point of lady's death - even if sansa always does everything right, she needs to kill the idea of what it means to be a proper lady if she wants to survive.

at the start of the series, it seems like arya would naturally be the visenya as she's the one more inclined to be a warrior. i think people forget that rhaenys was a warrior too. i think they also forget that visenya married aegon out of duty rather than affection - i don't think arya would do that (especially if she had vhagar as a mount), but sansa would. rhaena also married aegon out of duty despite clearly being a lesbian and was known for her maternal nature toward her siblings. yet, both eschewed expectations for highborn women and were said to be witches - just as sansa is after joffrey dies.

"She is Rhaenys and I am Visenya. I have never thought otherwise."

Rhaena and Alysanne Targaryen through time.