#this isn’t in reference to anything I’m just thinking

[tinfoil-jones]

For Your Own Good: Intermission

Askbox? Open

If you don't know what this post is about, "For Your Own Good" or tagged as "Early Amnesia AU" on tumblr is a dialogue-only Gravity Falls fanfiction I've been working on that kinda-sorta follows a Mystery Trio -esque timeline, where Ford doesn't build the portal. To sum it up, the whole fanfiction boils down to:

Researcher Ford: I told you I never wanted to see you again.

Mullet Stan: Dude, I don't know who you are or WTF you're talking about right now, but I'm leaving this town and never coming back. You are never seeing me again after this. I'm probably going to forget you in like five minutes.

Researcher Ford:

Researcher Ford: *immediately kidnaps him*

You can consider chapters 1-10 to be Act 1 of the fanfic, and I’m taking a break for at least a week, most likely longer. The chapters so far were already written out in advance, and so was a huge reveal, but I still need to tie things together.

Here’s some authors notes/extra stuff about it, some of it might have already been put in the AO3 before or after notes. These are in no particular order:

This takes place 10 years after Ford and Stan were separated, currently they are both 27 about to be 28. Fiddleford is slightly older than them, being in his early 30s.

Ford is unironically the only person who finds Stan’s really dumb jokes funny.

Ford is the one who displays the most behaviours that would be seen from Mabel and Dipper decades later. Like Dipper, he views washing clothes as a waste of time, and like Mabel he ate an entire tube of toothpaste (granted, it was on accident)

While Ford is the more likely of the two to display traits that later present in Mabel and Dipper, it still happens with Stan as well. Stan has a similar nervous-chewing habit that Dipper displays in the OG series, but his only comes out when he’s particularly anxious. In this case, it was because he had nicotine cravings.

The 'That motherfucker is ugly' line that Stan used on Ford can be considered extra ironic because of how much the Stan Twins look like their dad.

Bill Cipher was originally supposed to speak in Times New Bastard (which is Times New Roman except every 7th letter is jarringly sans serif, a meme from tumblr), but AO3 and tumblr don’t let you change the font.

Stan goes out of his way to avoid using Ford and Fiddlefords given names- but this isn’t because he doesn’t know what they are. In the few times he has used their names, it was a sign that he was being sincere.

If you want to wonder whether or not Fiddleford likes Stan back, consider the fact that he could have walked away at any point, and either washed his hands of the whole thing, or just outright reported Stanford to the authorities. 

Bill is more like Discord from MLP - he’s just chaotic, often to the detriment of others, but he isn’t outright malicious (anymore), and he’s too busy SIMPING to cause any real harm. Basically, Bill is Fords patron for studying weirdness - he helps Ford in his research, but the cost that Ford pays is that Bill is able to possess him when he sleeps, and has unlimited access to his brain.

If Ford knew Rick Sanchez, why didn’t Rick see how similar Stan looked and put 2-and-2 together? Easy; Rick didn’t give a single shit about Ford, so he never committed his face or name to memory. Ford himself only remembered Rick because Rick was such a massive, egotistical asshole. If anything, Rick would think Ford is the lesser version of Stan.

Chapter 10 was the first concrete proof that the Stan we’ve been following likely is Stanley Pines and not some similar conman named Stan Malone. The last time Ford saw Stan would have either been when they were teens, so other than Stans commercials for his failed products there’s no way Ford would know what an adult Stan would even look like, and he’d have to use himself as a reference.

Stan has given some insight on his Thalassophobia (fear of the ocean / large bodies of water). In Chapter 10, he told Ford a number of things he escaped, including the trunk of a sinking car, and cement shoes. Cement shoes are either when you tie someone to a cinder block and throw them into a body of water, or when you literally incase their feet in cement, wait for it to dry, and then toss them into a body of water, so they’ll drown. Presumably, these are still things that would have happened to him even if he didn't lose his memories, so why would it give him a fear of the ocean now? Stan Pines in the OG still had a lot of positive memories associated with the ocean - he grew up on the coast, and had a lot of his hopes and dreams tied to the ocean. But without his childhood memories, he has no positive associations with it, only memories of times he almost drowned. 

Ford himself is not a touchy guy. The reason he hugs Stan even though it isn’t reciprocated is because from his perspective, this is his twin brother who is in pain and has been suffering all by himself for a long time. And Stan - at least how Ford remembers him - had a very touch-based love language. Fords doing it because he thinks it’d comfort him.

Stan seems pretty calm and chill for someone who’s been kidnapped by a ‘stranger’. This isn’t because he’s an overall chill guy because of amnesia, no he’s super pissed and the second he knows he’s free he will let them know that with his words, and incredible violence. He’s remaining calm because he’s been imprisoned and kidnapped enough times to know that pitching a fit or lashing out at his captors won’t do him any favours.

Fiddleford is still married to Emma-May and they do have Tate. But it's one of those lavender marriages (they're both gay and mutually bearding each other)

[sufferu]

I think Subaru just feels that if he was born a girl life would have been easier since he wouldn't have to deal with the expectations as the first son

The thing is: Subaru gets a genuine sense of joy out of dressing as a woman. His entire presentation undergoes this massive shift. He becomes more confident, he thinks he’s prettier, he’s outwardly flirtatious — and even when he’s not, uh, “in uniform,” he genuinely loves making dresses, and styling hair, and playing with makeup. It gets to the point where, before he learns ANYTHING else, Rem remarks that his sewing skills are “top notch” — simply because he enjoys it so much that it’s where he dedicated all his time. Plus, there are all these little hints in the LN about how he misses being a cute, androgynous child who could be easily mistaken for a girl (even saying that the years have not been kind to him, which is a very strange way for a totally cis guy to reference puberty), and how he cried when his hair was shaved off, and how he prides himself on the old nickname “Princess of the Ice.” And even when basically nobody wants him dressed as a woman in Arc 7, he keeps making excuses to not change clothes, and EVERYONE takes it that way. And also he refers to Natsumi as his ideal self. This isn’t just him doing what’s easiest: he LIKES this.

Plus like — if you want to talk about characters leaning into an opposite gendered persona due to feeling that they can’t live up to their gender’s expectations…Ferris is right there. And Ferris very specifically foils Subaru in ways that are incredibly pointed. Ferris presents as a girl specifically for Crusch’s sake, while every time Subaru dresses as Natsumi he’s like the only one who actually enjoys it (sans Emilia, who has been very pointedly left out of the reveal that Natsumi == Subaru, and who uniquely shows pretty much zero contempt for his crossdressing habit in the one failed loop side story where she does find out about it). Ferris has to go through this entire morning routine of “getting into character” every day in order to be Crusch’s Cute Little Ferri-chan, Subaru slips into Natsumi’s persona so easily that he has to actively fight AGAINST it. Ferris dresses almost solely in a singular outfit that’s basically his Ferri-chan uniform (complete with a collar and a bell), Subaru has this whole love for styling different outfits practically every time he dresses as Natsumi. Hell — symbolically, Ferris is a nickname for a very traditionally masculine given name (Felix) while Subaru has been referenced many times as having a name that is explicitly androgynous (the implications of this can be debated but as it is I’m pretty certain it was intentional on Tappei’s part). It’s like a Whole Thing.

(And also — we already Had the whole “Subaru struggling with the pressures of being Kenichi’s son” thing. It’s what the whole First Trial was about him overcoming. So why is Natsumi becoming More prevalent as the story goes on, if it’s just an extension of that?)

(And if it really IS an extension of that prior problem, why do we STILL very pointedly not know what happened that day when he got found out? With Subaru going out of his way to shadow it as “a very traumatic event for me that I have spent a significant amount of time processing and struggling to overcome” while never revealing what actually went down — it’s be kind of anticlimactic for something like that to be revealed as just — an extension of a conflict that already got revealed and resolved ages ago.)

[oceanqueenmusical]

*Busts down the door* NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!

Ha, sorry! I just saw this post and felt compelled to add my own two cents since Macaque’s characterization and reception by fandom is something I feel pretty strongly about. Also bear in mind I mean none of this hatefully, I’m just participating in a debate.

While again, you're correct and valid in a lot of your points, I just can't agree with the statement that Macaque is just a bad person.

That’s great! Because Time didn’t say Macaque was ‘just’ a bad person. They actually acknowledge several times that he’s complex and multi-faceted. But being complex doesn’t mean you can’t also be an asshole to almost every other person you interact with. He repeatedly hurts several characters, and in the first two seasons he does so with zero provocation other than his hatred for Sun Wukong. He’s complex, yes, but still a dick.

I get what you're saying, but season 3 is entirely about dissecting the characters (namely Wukong and Macaque) while they're at their most vulnerable. And while this show isn't really known for consistent writing at times, the season is also spent getting to know Macaque and what his true intentions are.

I get what you’re saying here, but that’s… debatable? Monkie Kid has 11 minute episodes, and a lot of them are crammed with details that aren’t expanded on. Wukong is consistently benched every season and special, even if it’s done differently each time. He literally spends half of s3 meditating, and in the special he’s possessed. We don’t really see him at his ‘most vulnerable’ unless you count him being yelled at by Mei and then possessed by LBD, and even then that’s not really emotional vulnerability — which I assume is what you’re referring to.

Similarly, Macaque isn’t really emotionally vulnerable either. He’s tossed around by LBD, and sure, he’s ‘vulnerable’, but he spends all those scenes being terrified or snarky. We don’t really see inside his head at all. And— what ‘true intentions’? He’s literally hunting down the Monkie Kids to deliver them to LBD because she’s threatening him into compliance. Those aren’t true intentions, that’s just forced compliance.

M.K literally goes "deep, deep down, you're not [a bad] guy", and Macaque takes that as his incentive to join the group and help them save the world, which he continues to do for the next two seasons.

Uh, yeah… so, I did not like that speech at all and I think it was done very poorly and was unwarranted, but that is only my opinion. However, Macaque didn’t really help in s4. He just showed MK a video game to motivate him into fighting Azure and nominally helps Mei beat Peng. Not a lot happens, and he’s certainly not remorseful or apologetic towards anyone for how’s he’s treated them in the past. It’s just kinda brushed over. In s5 he’s a LOT more helpful of his own will though, I’ll give you that.

He also only was present for 1 episode in season 1, and I think 2 in season 2, so it surely wasn't "two full seasons". These seasons we don't know almost anything about him. We're supposed to take his actions purely at face value up until Season 3, where it's all spent letting us know that he does all of it because he was terribly hurt and betrayed (at least to him) by his closest and only friend (regardless of the nuances of that situation as well) and feels now more than ever that he can only rely on himself (something he also literally says). It's why he tries to save himself over the world (along with his well-hidden but clearly there) hope and belief that MK and his friends were capable enough to handle the rest in Season 3.

Okay, you may be right that we didn’t see a lot of Macaque in the first two seasons… but what we did see from him was not good AT ALL. Sure, he may have only had two episodes, but he spent those episodes being a dick and torturing MK and his friends for funsies. You can’t just say ‘oh, we haven’t seen their full character yet!’ Just because he only had two episodes in the first two seasons. Even if he had little screen time, he spent all of it being a manipulative asshole.

And as for s3 — again, even if he’s traumatized and has hope for the Mobile Kids, he’s acting on it in the most dickish way possible. He didn’t HAVE to separate the van into two copies and torture Mei and Sandy, but he did. He could’ve just isolated MK, taken him to LBD, and finished the job. He chose to keep Mei and Sandy around to get to MK.

Him "having fun while doing it" is, again, why we're meant to take his actions at face value. He acts like he doesn't care how he makes people feel, acts like he just hurts people for the fun of it, when there are clear reasons (justifiable or not) why he does those things.

… This is just headcanon territory. I’m sorry, but the only time Macaque shows a SMIDGEN of regret for what he’s doing is in s3 ep10 when he is actively being consumed by LBD’s curse, and even then he sounds more in pain than anything.

This is shown all throughout season three. He didn’t have to torture the Monkie Kids, level Ao Guang’s palace, hold Mei hostage, beat the shit out of Tang and degrade him, or choose to mock MK when he could’ve just gotten the job done with. He CHOSE to do those things, and he smiled the whole time. If you interpret him as remorseful that’s totally fine, but that is a headcanon. If he was genuinely sorry, he would have said something or showed even ONE SECOND of remorse on his face when he was alone.

His debut episode, he only does anything he does to get back at Wukong because he's upset for a valid reason. Was it okay for him to hurt MK the way he did? Of course not. But he didn't do it just because he's evil and likes hurting people, he did it because he hides away his good nature to keep people away and avoid being hurt (something he actually unveils that very episode in his lessons to MK. Macaque indirectly lets us know how he thinks with his learned ruthlessness).

Yeah, uh, I don’t know how to say this, but your buddy killing you 500 years ago doesn’t justify you trying to kill his mentee. Is the reason he’s upset valid? Yeah. Not valid enough to manipulate and try to murder MK, though.

Also… we have no proof he ‘hides his good away’. That was an assessment made by MK. You know, the guy who generally tries to see the good in people. Maybe Macaque was teaching MK with methods he genuinely believed in, but you can literally see throughout the episode how Macaque is manipulating MK and making him more and more angry and prone to lashing out so he can steal his powers. Using MK to get back at Wukong was Macaque’s first and foremost priority that episode.

In Shadow Play, he outright refers to MK as his student, and they have a conversation at the end that really should've explained everything. He says he's "a good kid with a terrible mentor".

Macaque calls himself MK’s mentor to fuck with him. That’s it. He says it in a mocking tone, and is pleased when MK snaps back. I agree that he was definitely growing somewhat fond of MK by the end, but that doesn’t change the fact that ‘student’ was a word used by Macaque to mock MK, and MK visibly reacts with anger and frustration when he’s called that by Macaque. Not exactly a moniker used with fondness in that episode.

This episode isn't him mentally tormenting MK just for the sillies.

… Yes. It literally is. The entire episode he mocks MK and makes assumptions about MK’s character that he based on (his biased and untrustworthy view of) Sun Wukong. Macaque literally drags MK through the mud while peppering his friends around, laughing at him for relating to the warrior. Why? Because Macaque assumes MK and Sun Wukong are the same people when they’re NOT.

Also… even if Macaque was trying to teach MK a lesson, he didn’t have to strip away the free will of three people to do it. He had so many other options. He chose to hurt people.

It's him, in the harsh and brash nature I mentioned before that we actually see best in perspective post-redemption with the game he has MK play in Season 4, teaching MK to never forget where he came from and to not allow his newfound power and glory to cause him to forget about the people who care about him and who helped him get there. He tells the story about him and Wukong as a way of saying "don't let you and your friends become like us, don't ruin the good thing you have". This is an inherently good lesson done in a way that would disallow MK to actually see that Macaque is trying to help.

I agree that the lesson is good, but it’s still based on Macaque’s biased perspective of Wukong and MK. MK’s issue that episode wasn’t him becoming a glory-hound and forgetting his roots, he was having a breakdown over losing his mentor and discovering that he’s a magical monkey. However, I will agree on this point that Macaque was genuinely trying to help here.

His holding Mei hostage was obviously not okay (and I'm pretty sure he was bluffing, because he literally said before that that he didn't want to have to hurt anyone and that he was only there for the rings but that isn't the conversation, and either way holding people hostage is inherently bad),

Headcanon. We have no proof he was bluffing. Not wanting to hurt someone is very different from hurting someone anyways, and as we’ve seen Macaque is VERY capable of killing someone. In fact, I’d argue he had more motivation to do something drastic here considering he was literally being consumed by LBD’s curse! And again— he chose to hold Mei hostage and threaten Tang to complete the ritual. He could’ve waited it out or tried to talk but he did not. He chose the violent route. Sure, maybe he did because of his trauma, but that was still a choice he made.

but again, we know why. You can hear it in his voice and his dialogue that he's become desperate. Testimonies from both Wukong and Peng let us know that Macaque has never been the fearless type. In fact, his self preservation bleeds into a lot of his moments, where we never see him go in swinging. He plays mind games, he turns his fights psychological to give himself the upper-hand. So we know that Macaque is both, literally not himself, and clearly behaving in ways he never would. When he breaks free, he tries to run away. He doesn't keep pursuing MK and the gang, he tries to save himself and again, leave the rest to them.

Yeah, and he also gives himself the upper hand because he likes to be in control and psychologically fuck with his opponents. And actually? Aside from how desperate he sounds, nothing Macaque did in that episode was out of character. Being consumed by LBD’s curse didn’t change his brain chemistry all of a sudden, Macaque was capable of holding Mei hostage WAY before even coming into contact with LBD.

Also, yeah, he does run away. He runs away from the consequences of his actions after torturing Mei and forcing Tang to complete the ritual, leaving everyone else to deal with the mess he made.

And his regret and remorse are shown in the way he sticks around and keeps helping them when he has no reason to. He doesn't need to help out with LBD in s3 after he's free, cheer up MK with his speech, or help Wukong break out of the Scroll of Memory, or be there for the fight against the Brotherhood all in s4, or have that talk with Wukong at the beginning of s5, especially, again, given everything we know about him and his constant feeling of needing to flee, but he does all of it anyways.

You do realize that in the s3 special and the latter half of s4 the world is about to end, right? Macaque helps because it’s in his own self-interest. I will give you season 5, but the earlier seasons? He’s helping because he’s not a dumbass and knows that the world is close to ending and that he should probably stop it if he doesn’t want to DIE.

Also if someone showed their ‘regret’ by sticking around to do the bare minimum with no apologies I’d yell at them to leave. He doesn’t even show remorse— he never apologies or looks regretful. He’s the same as always; cocky, snarky, and arrogant with a hatred for Wukong. Sure, it may have dimmed as the series progresses, but he’s mostly the same except he’s a ‘good guy’ now. No apologies to Tang, Mei, Sandy, MK, Wukong, anyone. He never shows any kind of regret in any way. Claiming that sticking around is how he shows regret is headcanon territory.

Should he have an apology? Of course he should, and it sucks that we don't get one, but we know that Macaque shows his feelings through action, and, in moments of vulnerability, isn't very good with words. It's why MK thinks Macaque is just being a dick when he initially tries to give him advice in s4.

Headcanon (I’m noticing a theme here). Sure, Macaque isn’t a very open book with his emotions, but you can’t say that he shows regret through actions when those actions have been bare-minimum saving the world. He never tries to show kindness to anyone he’s hurt. He dips in, saves the day with snarky commentary, and dips out.

Yes, Macaque isn’t good with words, but he also doesn’t seem to try. When he shows up as MK’s having a breakdown in season 4 he doesn’t try to comfort the kid, he literally announces himself by degrading Wukong. Which— do you think that would make MK feel better? Sorry, that was mean, but seriously.

MK thought Macaque was being a dick because Macaque showed up acting like one.

He didn't try to murder MK, he used him as bait to satiate a long-standing grudge. A bad thing, but not done unprompted.

… Yes. Yes, he did. He would’ve crushed MK to a pulp in s1 ep9 had Wukong not shown up. Macaque had no idea that Wukong would’ve shown up at that exact moment. For all he knew MK was about to die by his hand and he was CHILL with it. More than chill, actually!

Also— what do you mean ‘not done unprompted’?! Trying to kill a kid because you have beef with his mentor seems pretty unprompted to me! MK had no issues with Macaque until Macaque showed up to manipulate and kill him. Just because Wukong wronged Macaque once doesn’t make Macaque trying to kill his mentee prompted, I would say doing something like that is very much unprompted!

He didn't brutalize MK. He used harsh means to teach MK a valuable lesson. It was bad to use MK's friends the way that he did, it was bad to go at MK's safety and headspace to get his point across. But it was done with the intent of a good outcome.

What point?! What outcome?! I just rewatched the episode and all Macaque says is that MK’s a good kid with a bad teacher (which is an opinion, by the way), and Macaque could’ve just said that. And he says that AFTER he leaves the theatre and MK had to hunt him down. The ‘point’ Macaque was trying to get across was that MK and Wukong were selfish assholes who didn’t care about their friends— which is a biased and factually incorrect narrative that he made up because he couldn’t see Wukong and MK as two different entities.

I’m sorry, but no lesson is worth violating the autonomy of three people and traumatizing another. Tell me; if Wukong did anything similar to that to teach MK a lesson, would you still be cool with it?

He fought Tang for the Ring of Samadhi (I'm pretty sure he barely even hit him, so I wouldn't say "violently beat on", but an attack is still an attack so I won't tell you you're wrong)

Macaque kicks Tang in the face and throws him to the floor. He tries to punch him in the face and the ONLY reason he didn’t get to kick the shit out of Tang more was because Tang managed to unlock his cicada powers. Macaque didn’t beat on Tang more because of lack of opportunity, not lack of malice.

and, again, was just playing mind games as we see him do constantly no matter the enemy--a defense mechanism, a legit fighting strategy.

It’s also known as projection. Macaque does it a lot, especially to MK. Macaque brings up Wukong during their fight despite the fact that Tang was benched by MK and has barely interacted with Wukong that season. Also— Tang is (if we’re going off of Word of God) around 40. What threat does he pose to Macaque to necessitate a defense mechanism? Even when Tang gets powers it’s just making a shield. THAT is a defense mechanism.

But he was under the iron fist of LBD, and wouldn't have even bothered with Tang otherwise (I really could keep going about his actions in s3 and how well masked his encouragement of their team actually is). He was given his warning before this moment, and literally almost was killed then and there before he told her about their plan. LBD wouldn't have even known about it and thus wouldn't have had the time to prepare until his life was on the line.

This is true, but again, he goes about things in the most violent manner possible. Also— the only visible encouragement I see is at the end of ‘The Winning Side’, and that’s mostly to himself. Sure, maybe he’s not as violent as he could be, but that’s still not better.

His siege of the Dragon Palace of the East Sea was also only done because the LBD was practically dangling his right to live in front of him and as a means of self-preservation. This is a bad thing he does, but one that hardly counts, because again, he never would've bothered otherwise.

I’m gonna let you in on a little secret: the siege of Ao Guang’s palace? Yeah, that was before the ice curse that threatened to encase Macaque’s body. Sure, he was being coerced by LBD before then, but he still chose to attack the palace. He acknowledges that Ao Guang was only sent to slow him down— he could’ve left and pursued the team instead! But he instead chose to siege the palace and assault Ao Guang and he does so smiling and laughing.

Also— my god, ‘one that hardly counts’?! Just because you’re being coerced into an action doesn’t mean that everything you do during that suddenly doesn’t count! Oh, it doesn’t count to Macaque’s character? Well, guess what! It counts to the destroyed palace, the probably injured people who lived in that city, and the definitely injured Ao Guang.

You can’t write off everything Macaque does in s3 and use LBD as a scapegoat. She is an instigator for his actions, yes, but she wasn’t whispering in his ear to attack the palace. And if she was— he sure seemed to have a hell of a time doing it either way.

You're right, trauma doesn't exempt someone from responsibility, but the point isn't that Macaque isn't responsible for his bad actions, because in most cases, he is. But there's a lot of detail and understanding of his character that's missed when you take all of his actions before his redemption (and even after for some reason) and write him off as a "bad person".

Holding someone accountable ≠ missing nuance and detail. Macaque does bad things repeatedly, many times of his own free will, and even when they aren’t he takes them a lot farther than necessary.

And I gotta ask— when was Macaque’s redemption for you? Was it when he said sorry or showed remorse to somebody? Because I hate to break it to you, but that NEVER happens. Never. Not once. He leaves, shows up to nominally help, then leaves. There is zero present remorse there. Saving the world one time after all your other options are exhausted and getting a little speech about how deep down you’re actually a good person doesn’t ‘redeem’ you.

I thought we all agreed that redemption is taking accountability for your actions and making steps to be better. Macaque never does either of those things. The most he does is save the world and help out the team. That’s it. He doesn’t say sorry. He’s not kind — physically or with words — to anyone. He sticks to the shadows and doesn’t say anything until there’s an opportunity to be snarky and bag on Wukong. That is it.

Also, like I said at the start, Time never writes Macaque off. They acknowledge several times his complexity, and how he is a very nuanced character with multiple facets. But being a complex dick is still being a dick.

That’s all! If you’ve read this far thank you, and again, I don’t mean this as an insult, just a debate. Have a good day!

For fun how about rating Wukong ship from lmk and give your opinion why?

SWK Ship Ratings

(Scores rank from -10 at the lowest, and 10 at the highest)

Shadowpeach

Name Rating: 5/10. Basic, but rolls off the tongue. Started the trend of Sun Wukong having extremely basic ship names- more on that below.

Canon Rating: 0/10. Whatever they had in the past, Macaque simply treats Wukong far too awfully to really justify the two of them ever getting together. Even the attempts at reconciliation feel more like extremely forced ship baiting, given how it goes from one of the two being marginally kinder to the other than usual, then immediately dropping it for more sniping. (Past!Shadowpeach receives 5/10.)

Fanon Rating: -10/10. I’ve spoken at length about this, but fans love to distort Wukong into a drooling abuser so stupid he can’t breath through his nose, usually while turning Macaque into a Possession Sue who only serves to be the author’s simpering self-insert who is the most perfect little baby of all time who has never ever done anything wrong at all even once. If there is an attempt to be “nuanced” or “unbiased” it manifest as “Sun Wukong “killed” (re: defended himself against) Macaque so he’s worse.” It’s an awful, extremely pervasive dynamic that rots any fandom enjoyment I could have had for this couple.

Personal Enjoyment: 6/10. Getting to write Macaque as the legitimately awful person that he is takes off the edge of seeing constant “uwu sadboi” Macaque content. Still, I don’t touch anyone else’s Shadowpeach content because of this.

Peachlotus

Name Rating: 2/10. As you’ll see, most ship names involving Sun Wukong are, uh… extremely lazy. Just one of the other character’s traits with “peach” slapped before/after it. Fandom really dropped the ball with most of these. This one is especially clunky, at least on my tongue.

(See, Macaque gets stuff like Lunartides, Inkypages, Shadowpeach, etc- all very cool.. We need to diversify the nouns is what I’m saying. Coulda been something like “GingerRoot” cause orange fur + plant boy. “FlowerBuds” for the platonic name for peaches + lotuses. Do you guys see what I’m saying. It can’t just be raw peaches all the way down.)

Canon Rating: 2/10. Ne Zha also doesn’t treat Wukong too kindly, interacting with him mostly through insults and physical attacks. He does seem to have some understanding of the king, though, which gives him a slight boost over Macaque.

Fanon Rating: 1/10. It barely exists, and what little does exist is essentially just “Ne Zha is mad at Wukong over what the fuck ever, so they’re fighting” and little more. There’s a lot of potential for bonding over immortality and awful pasts or being commandeered by domineering authority figures, which I wish was used more often.

Personal Enjoyment: 2/10. I don’t see the dynamic, personally. Again, Ne Zha’s only interactions with him are only ever vitriolic or exasperated in nature, which doesn’t leave stable footing for a relationship to stand. Maybe I’ll make a chatbot for them one day and see if I come around to it.

“Freepeaches”

Name Rating: -5/10. This shit is exactly what I’m talking about with the lazily slapping “peach” onto whatever and going on. “Free” has no meaning between Wukong and Tang- it’s just a holdover from a more popular ship. Tang only mooches food from Pigsy. That’s one of the biggest elements of their dynamic. Sure, Tang likes free stuff (food, rides, physical labor), but when does he ever get that from Wukong? It just makes no sense.

AND IF IT HAD TO HAVE THE FRUIT, TANGYPEACHES WAS RIGHT THERE

Canon Rating: 6/10. Tang literally drew himself and the Monkey King together inside a heart. He adores Wukong, thought maybe not for who he truly is- and the two don’t any interaction in terms of Tang realizing his autistic parasocial special interest idol is a lonely old sage who misses his friends, which cripples what was a pretty cute dynamic. I think Tang coming down from his hero worship and being just a genuine friend to SWK would be cute, definitely.

Fanon Rating: 9/10. Pretty enjoyable! Freepeaches is one of the few dynamics where Sun Wukong isn’t constantly turned into a punching bag/villain to be beaten around for the amusement of the audience, and the two are often portrayed as legitimately healthy together- I especially enjoy how Tang is portrayed as needing to move past his hero worship for the two to have a healthy relationship. It’s cute.

Personal Enjoyment: 6/10. Never addressing the resemblance to Sanzang or having them interact in regards to this while the circlet is back on Wukong’s head feels like a massively missed opportunity, honestly. I think Sun Wukong’s personal feelings have been left to the wayside for far too long in canon, and getting to a point where almost every fucking character represses their feelings is lazy and boring.

Peachbuns

Name Rating: 4/10. Again. Just “peach” slapped onto an adjective or noun. It’s frustratingly boring. This one sounds delicious and both components are related to food at least, which fits Pigsy’s background… but it also sounds like something a horny dude would ask for pics of in your DMs.

Canon Rating: 1/10. Pigsy isn’t willing to take any of Wukong’s shit, so he serves as a pretty great “bullshit barrier” that provides a legitimately strict opposing force to Wukong, but there’s little else to even their relationship out. He’s never kind or supportive or worried- if the two interact, it’s always through the lens of “Pigsy is mad/suspicious”. There’s never any real bonding or growth between them at all.

Fanon Rating: 4/10. This ship barely exists, and when it does it’s Sun Wukong being lectured through life by a big strong man- not a dynamic I’m a fan of. However, it is surprisingly kind to Wukong in terms of empathizing with his struggles. Again, I wish there was less of “Pigsy teaches Wukong basic life skills” because it falls right back into the revolting fanon that is “SWK is a big dumb fuck who can’t read or cook or take care of himself without a husband to wipe his ass.”

Personal Enjoyment: 2/10. I just don’t click with it. Pigsy doesn’t like Wukong, doesn’t trust him, and doesn’t interact with him outside of that.

Moonstone

Name Rating: 10/10. This is what I like! Moonstone is not only a very real (and very beautiful) mineral, but it ties to both of them equally! You don’t see Wukong’s status as a stone-born demon be referenced often, so this is a refreshing change of pace from the constant “peach” names.

Canon Rating: 7/10. Chang’e is a lovely woman who is simultaneously not be willing put up with Sun Wukong’s bullshit while still legitimately respecting and admiring him. It makes for a nice duality in their relationship that most of his dynamics don’t provide.

Fanon Rating: 10/10. The working dynamic is so fucking good to start with that I’ve never once seen fanon drop the ball. Never. This ship is always so fucking sweet and honest with Chang’e calling out Wukong for his bullshit while never pushing it to the “Shit on Sun Wukong Show” levels that the fandom loves so much- she takes no shit, but does no harm. She’s supportive and acknowledges his traumas and fears. Wukong does his best for her. Moonstone shippers get an A+ and extra recess time.

Personal Enjoyment: 7/10. I just… I really like this one, dammit. There’s not a lot to go off of, but seeing fanworks that do not primarily treat SWK like living trash/baby the hell out of him is nice.

Lionpeach

Name Rating: 3/10. Again. Very boring and generic. I’ve seen Fuzzypeach which is a little cuter, at least. Still, it’s all the same “peach”+noun format.

Canon Rating: 3/10. The devotion Azure bears to Sun Wukong seems like it would bear a higher marking, but it’s shallow and flimsy. Azure never understood Wukong, never wanted what was best for him, never cared about his safety or happiness. Azure projects his beliefs and wants onto the people around him, blinding the big fella to shortcomings on their parts, and is delusional enough to never look inwards. Still, I can legitimately see

Fanon Rating: 0/10. It’s just smut. That’s it. When it isn’t it’s just “Ooooh! Azure is jealous of Macaque! Tee-hee, sorry Azure!” and that’s it. I’ve never actually seen any non-sexual, Azure-focused Lionpeach.

Personal Enjoyment: 5/10. It’s a fun enough dynamic to explore, especially with how unhealthy it is. I’ll probably make a bot of this too one day. Maybe a “yandere dads” type. Or a mutual Primal Moon bot.

Celestialchaos

Name Rating: 10/10. Another not peach-based name is a win in my book!

Canon Rating: 6/10. Xiangliu is civil enough to Wukong (about as much as everyone else), but the mention of them having once been friends is what got my attention. Shrouded past + + potential reincarnation shenanigans + decently civil behavior = a very happy writer. It’s so little but it makes my brain itch.

Fanon Rating: 0/10. It doesn’t even exist babes ;( I’m scrounging for water in the lonely plains of a desert y’all. I’m a lonely little cactus and Celestialchaos is my annual three-inch rain.

Personal Enjoyment: 10/10. C’mon now. You all were expecting this. I love this ship. I’ve already made four chatbots. I love Xiangliu as a wild little freak who desperately tries to push Wukong away from other people and sad lonely Wukong finding refuge in a freaky toxic snake. Especially I like the idea of Xiangliu pitting himself against Macaque and going after Sun Wukong just to cause a little trouble, only to actually catch feelings and start pursuing him in earnest. I like “I want you at your worst so I can prove that I still love you even then” Xiangliu and “You love me at all?” Wukong.

I really like this ship.

End Result

(Scores ranging from -40 to +40)

Shadowpeach= 1/40

(Past!Shadowpeach would around 20)

Lotuspeach= 7/40

Freepeaches= 16/40

Peachbuns= 11/40

Moonstone= 34/40

Lionpeach= 11/40

Celestialchaos= 26/40

[gemsandjunk]

tbh, sometimes the “platonic explanation for this” is the more interesting one

[snowangeldotmp3]

actually i think lucy gray’s ambiguous ending is even better if she did survive. if she did escape somewhere north, knowing she gets her freedom and outlives snow. both literally and metaphorically.

[imaginethisisagoodname]

Big spoilers for C2 below (this includes the tags, I try to be vague in them but if you really want to avoid spoilers skip them)

I also don’t have a good conclusion to this so it’s mainly just some guesses but not really anything else

So when we find out Elgas real name, Calliope and Barney’s kids names, Titus and Samson, they sound like weird names, which they would be now, because they’re really old. Titus was a Roman emperor who ruled from 79-81 CE and is known for being the conquer of Jerusaleum and in Greek it means title of honor, and Samson was an Israelite warrior and judge and was really strong and his name means sun And it’s kinda cool that Micah gave them these names and I don’t know if they mean anything, but they might. Also both of them are from the Bible so that’s kinda cool.

I suppose Samson could be a play on words like sun vs son but I really don’t know.

But they also have Elgas birth name Calliope, wich is the name of the oldest of the nine muses, and the muse of epic poetry and eloquence which isn’t super Elga. I don’t really know why Micah gave her this name, but it probably wasn’t a name from internet people so it must have some purpose.

Calliope dose mean beautiful voice in Greek so it could’ve just been that he was referencing Elgas nice acent?

Her mom was also the goddess of memory which is kinda ironic and could also be Micah referencing the fact that she lost her memory?

But some other stuff about her that doesn’t mean anything (as far as I can tell) is that in some interpretations she is a water nymph, her dad is Zeus, she’s the mom of Linus and Orpheus, she was often depicted with her sisters, some say she was homers muse for the Iliad and the Odyssey, she was sometimes referred to as the mother/chief of all muses, she was also sometimes said to be the mother of the sirens and her symbols were the lyre, tablet and stylus.

I’m willing to bet Micah named her off my first 2 guesses but he could’ve had some other plan and I just think it’s interesting that when given to name Barneys sons he named them after biblical people but for his daughter he names her after a Greek muse. And the Elga thing just feels kinda interesting to me but if anyone else knows anything else please tell me.

Also here’s some pictures of calliope in greeek mythology just because I think it’s interesting

[acrobattack]

i don’t know if this is a hot take or not but the rr/b skew more neutral than evil to me

[mars-ipan]

so funny to me how ppl on tumblr will read a post that says, within the post, SEVERAL times, “hey this isn’t super well-thought out discussion and shouldn’t be treated as such i’m just sharing an individual opinion and my word should not be taken as fact” and then refuse to understand that whether they agree or disagree with the op

[palukoo]

this is SUCH an insane thing to say in a random blog post/obituary especially as the author is ostensibly not a lesbian. like truly hello??? that said. well… points we’re made!! there WAS something vaguely dykey about her.

[lizardbraining]

Silly guy

and an even sillier guy

[mickeym4ndy]

I gotta be completely honest.

“This character would hate you for saying that” has just never had any effect on me. Because… well they’re fictional characters. They’re not real, they simply can’t feel any way about me or anyone else because they just don’t exist.

Idk I think basing how the general public should feel about a character entirely on how another fictional character views them is just really silly tbh.

Also in my opinion by doing that you’re just taking on the other character’s bias when really you should be able to form your own view regardless and know how not to take opinion as fact. If that makes sense.

[cozy-the-overlord]

Sometimes I think about how throughout Clone Wars “sir” was used as a non-gendered term — the clones always referred to Ahsoka and the other female Jedi as “sir” to the point that as a child I didn’t realize that “sir” was considered masculine (and sometimes still forget even today) — until the final season, the only season that Disney produced, where Rex suddenly starts calling Ahsoka “ma’am” for the first time.

[swinging-stars-from-satellites]

trying to write this essay while maintaining at least a facade of academic objective voice is ridiculous, actually

[devilishdelights]

unpopular opinion…. i don’t like those touchstarved VA’s that have been circulating 😭 i think they’re too gruff and deep for leander and ais. Leander has a smooth voice to me that’s very casual.

and Ais has a very slight gruff but it’s not as intense or deep. it’s kinda crackly but medium in tone.

there’s this voice in my head that’s Mhin to a T, it’s gotta be someone i’ve heard before but i can’t remember!! grouchy for sure

kuras is soft spoken yet authoritative, a bit cheeky in tone, maybe breathy. i think he has those breathy laughs. He speaks clearly though.

vere is the only one i kinda vibe with, being a honeyed sultry voice with some snark.

[melrosing]

okay I l get that in fandom we’re all regurgitating each other’s takes all the time because that’s how the ecosystem works but it is generally kind of :\ to see something quite specific you wrote just repeated in a TikTok vid with like no reference back whatsoever

[fondcrimes]

idk anything about fantasy games but I keep running into comments and posts online that r essentially like “fantasy racism is completely different to irl racism because [insert mechanism or trait that is essential to perpetuating irl racism]”