#there are A LOT OF things i dislike about season 4

[grapejuicestyless]

OBX 4 RANT(contains spoilers)

Thoughts on Season 4 Ending:

Honestly, me personally, I think I always knew that eventually one of the Pogues would end up dying, but I always thought it would be more towards the end(season 5ish) so that at least the main cast would get to finish out the show. But I can’t say I’m shocked that JJ was killed off this season.

JJ was my favorite character obviously, and I think he definitely deserved a happy ending as much, if not more, than the other Pogues, but also, I think by killing off the comic relief and such a beloved character, it leaves so much room for plot development and other character arcs that weren't there previously.

Kiara's season is long overdue as well as Cleos. But more than that, I think that as amazing as the Jiara plot was, it held back Kiaras character. If you compare Season 3-4 Kiara to season 1-2 Kiara, shes gotten a lot less tough than previously. and while recognizing that the Pogues have gone through a lot and that can change a character, it seems like she was the only one to go through this change, especially after her and JJ got together.(Season 1/2 Kiara would have ended Ruthie tbh.)

Kiara is also one of my favorite characters, and I cannot wait to see how she navigates season 5.

Thoughts on Riara:

While I think both Rafe and Kiara are good characters, the show has progressed too far to have the characters end up together. I love a good enemies to lovers, but theres too much history, especially with JJ gone now, to put them together.

For starters, Kiara loved JJ, and they all just lost him. Season 5 will probably pick up right where they left off(assuming there is no time jump.) and all the Pogues will be grieving and trying to avenge their best friend. So, it doesn't make sense for Kiara to run straight into Rafe Camerons arms, especially when everyone knew that JJ did not like him or trust him, so it would probably feel like a betrayal to JJ to get with Rafe.

More than that, the actress has expressed her dislike for the ship, so it would not be surprising if it never even gets mentioned.

However, I do think the Pogues, especially Kiara, are going to have an intense breakdown over JJ that only Rafe will be able to help with. I would love to see Kiara and the other Pogues be able to lean on Rafe and use him as guidance to get revenge for JJ and also figure out their emotions that Rafe has dealt with for 4 seasons now. I would also love to see Rafe lean on the Pogues for guidance as part of his character arc without replacing JJ.

Thoughts on the actors:

As someone who had watched the show from day one, I find it so crazy at how people have turned a FICTIONAL CHARACTERS DEATH, into something so much bigger. JJ Maybank was a comfort character to me as well, and I definitely cried and was upset by the ending, but I think ultimately that's a good thing.

The fact that Rudy was able to bring to life a character so well that people are making petitions to get him back should say something about how insanely talented this cast is, but instead, all I've seen is people tearing down Rudy and Madison.

What went down between the actors is not confirmed. Just because a gossip account "confirms" something, doesn't mean it's true. Do I think it's sad that such close friends can't interact in public anymore? Yes. But it's weird to theorize over it, especially because this is someone's life, these are real people.

All the hate towards the actors is just crazy to me because if you truly cared about these people and wanted them to “find each other” again, you wouldn’t be bringing up the things that are the rumored reasons why they don’t talk in public anymore.

More than that, the hate to both of their girlfriends is just as insane. I see it happen to every attractive celebrity. The hate for Elaine, as someone who doesn’t really follow the actors personal lives, seems so forced and unwarranted. People make up rumors and act like it’s the truth without any real proof that it’s real. Same thing with Madisons girlfriend. It all just seems so unreasonable to blame people that have nothing to do with the writing of the script for how the season ended.

Truly, I hope both Madison and Rudy have very successful and long careers after Outer Banks not only in spite of all the people who are claiming that they can’t act(which is crazy because they literally made so many people cry and so many fans want their characters together because of how well they portrayed their characters) and that they will be nothing, but also because they are genuinely some of the most talented young actors today.

Thoughts on JJ’s return:

It’s been said by some people who work on Outer banks and write/produce the show that they could see Rudy coming back in season 5. Whether that be through a revival or through flashbacks, it’s been said that Rudy is open to coming back if it is possible.

For me personally, even though I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to have him back and have him get his happy ending, I think it would ruin the entire plot of the last season to bring him back. I think it would be nice to see the actor come back through flashbacks or other things, and I also see that as the most plausible scenario in which JJ would appear in season 5. But unfortunately, because of all the press and statements made about the show, I do not think JJ will be coming back.

Final thoughts/theories:

Did they bury JJ in Morocco?: Yes and No. I think that initially, it could have been JJ the Pogues buried, however, I think that after seeing all the backlash on them having JJ be randomly buried so far away from everyone else and making his worst fear, being alone, come true, they might change who got buried.

Keep in mind, Pope shot someone and killed them. It’s totally possible since we didn’t explicitly see who got buried that the writers could make it to be that they buried the man Pope killed instead of JJ. Or, that maybe if it was JJ, the grave is temporary until they can bring him back to the Outer Banks.

Will Luke have a redemption after JJ’s death?: Maybe. I think it’s possible to see the Pogues coming to Luke as part of their “revenge” for JJ, but once Luke finds out about JJ’s death, he will tell the Pogues what he was trying to tell JJ before he ran off. I don’t necessarily think he will have a “redemption” and at this point, the damage has already been done and he’s already permanently hurt JJ and theres no way to fix it. But, I could see him unintentionally telling the Pogues something that could help them.

What will happen to Pope?: I think two things are possible. I think they could send him away to the Military/jail, which will result in a breakout mission similar to what we saw in season 2 with John B and JJ in jail, or, we could see him hiding out until he gets his name pardoned by Shoupe. At this point, I’m not sure what will happen with him because so much has happened to the Pogues in such a short amount of time that his storyline could really go in any direction.

What about the baby?: I think at the end of OBX, we will get to see each of the Pogues doing what they dreamed of while still being together. Kiara will be saving turtles, Pope will end up in some kind of schooling, John B and Sarah will have the baby. Etc.

I could see them naming the baby JJ, and I think that makes the most sense to do. As for the theory that the whole show is just John B and Sarah telling their kid about JJ and the Pogues, as cute as that would be, it feels predictable and in a way, ruins the show for me. I feel like it would feel similar to the ending of how I met your mother(iykyk…) and I feel like it wouldn’t be the most satisfying ending to the show.

I don’t know if we will ever see the baby, or if we will just find out if the name will be JJ or not, who knows, but either way, it would be amazing to see each of the Pogues finally be able to settle down and get what they want.

I could also see the Pogues deciding to stick together and have that be what they all want after JJ’s death and honoring him by saving the property, but again, like Popes storyline, the ending could go either way I feel.

Anyways, those are just my thoughts/opinions on the new season of OBX. Any hate towards the actors will not be tolerated <333

[taintedcigs]

i rolled my eyes so hard when that happened. same with the 6 nuggets scene. i blame it all on the duffer brothers. like literally nothing else. just them. 😭 s4 had the worst characterization by FAR. stranger things writers need to realize that one of the MOST beloved aspects of this show is the characters. yes the story is great and creative and has endless possibilities but the heart of this show is the characters, their development and their relationships (both platonic and romantic). to make steve pine for nancy AGAIN after all the s2/3 events was pure and utter bullshit. everytime i think abt it i want to rip my hair out bc not only does it not make any sense regarding steve's character development but it also doesn't make any sense for how they build jancy. like 3 seasons they've shown us that nancy and jonathan are great together (they have their ups and downs, but up until s4 they didn't have any major issues, not to mention they're so very everlark tethered so i like them idc) and how much steve and nancy do not fit as a couple, then they retcon all of this and try to make them a thing again. AND not only is that enough, but they have several side characters actively rooting for them. DESPITE NANCY BEING IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH JONATHAN?!!??!!??

why can't st writers just make them friends? they would work GREAT as friends.

can we talk for a second about how corny eddie’s little speech to steve about ‘getting nancy back’ is? it just always seemed so wildly out of place to me 😭

i also do NOT like stancy so like… ew, no. but it just never made sense to me why eddie out of NOWHERE is giving steve love advice 💀 idk maybe it’s just me

[nomairuins]

we had fun tho the whole family hung out and we did some sporclee and chronophoto and then globle me n lamp nd father did globle bc mein mamma went to sleep. yay :]

[antivivziepopparade]

All of the proof that we have that Vivziepop is abusive. (So far....)

While you support this post please go ahead and support my channel to see more about Vivziepop's abusive behavior. Thanks!

1. She rushes her employees.

Season 1 was made in 2020. While Season 2 was made in 2021 while being released with MULTIPLE EPISODES only ONE year later.

That's-

INSANE!

-and im about to tell you why:

The average cartoon needs almost ONE WHOLE YEAR to produce one episode. And this is what we see in MAINSTREAM shows.

Meanwhile, Helluva Boss took only one year (and a half) to make MULTIPLE ENTIRE EPISODES that last over 20 minutes. The longest waiting time for an episode being 8 months. Not even a year, and we get multiple episodes off the drawing board.

You can even see here that it's taken only three years to make 16 episodes. When this is an indie studio, so this should have taken so much longer to make. Yet for some reason, it took only a few years for us to get full seasons. In 2021, we got over 4 episodes alone. Have you ever wondered why these episodes come out so fast while other shows take a lot longer to get new seasons? That's an easy question to ask... Spindlehorse...

Is being ABUSED.

And I have the proof to show.

2. The pay controversy.

Spindlehorse's payment has been under controversy for providing the lowest pay possible to those that work at the studio.

One piece of evidence was given by Adam himself (albeit unintentionally) by saying this:

This kind of pay is highly unstable! And before you say "But he didn't force them to be there-"

LOOK.

The employees themselves admitted that they had no choice. People had no choice and Vivienne Medrano took advantage of that for her own selfish desires. This is disgusting treatment of a studio as small as Spindlehorse. Or any studio for that matter.

Hell! chaifootsteps said once that once Zeurel released that he was paying his animators too low, he deleted one of the tweets showing the low pay and decided to do something to give his employees better wages. Meanwhile, Chimera Bunny pays even less than Viv does and just because paying your workers low is normal in the animation industry- plot twist: Doesn't make it ok!

People have suffered so much in this industry, it's why "New Deal for Animation" exists. The only reason you haven't seen many Vivziepop workers having protests and speaking out is because Vivziepop says things like this behind people's backs if they "dare" do anything she doesn't like:

So that explains as to why so many people remain as "anon" or say nothing at all because they got cold feet. Vivienne's terrible!

Especially since even her top employees have admitted to not being paid enough despite Adam's "I pay them to stay if they make us the most mon-ey!" claims from the article:

Also this:

This is how she speaks about her own employees:

"YOU DONT LIKE HOW I TREAT YOU?! FUCK OFF!"

Straight up abuse.

Also, wasn't Walt Disney known for abusing his employees?

To the point where people had an entire protest in 1914 about it?

Wow... such a healthy workplace treatment comparison. Doesn't make Vivziepop look more like a jerk.... at all! /s

3. She bullies kids/laughed at a sa victim that was sa'ed by her friends. As one kid was bullied into a panic attack (I know them personally) back in about 2020 and Viv decided to vague post about them behind their back even after they apologized.

For someone who's so focused on "forgiving despite cancel culture" she sure likes to blame and harass people for disliking even ONE thing about her show or herself. One thing- and you're harassed over making a meme about a cartoon with fictional characters (What Froot Did that set Vivziepop and Gumball off.)

Secondly, one of her friends sexually harassed a minor.

And instead of acknowledging the sa, Vivziepop wrote this:

She ended up calling it a "joke" and made fun of the victim involved.

This is outright abusive behavior that should not be tolerated.

Children don't deserve to be traumatized this way. Especially over something as simple as making memes about a cartoon (negative or not) or simply telling someone to stop fetishizing abuse.

More on this in this video made by Gummypop:

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND-

That's all that I have for now!

Will likely be updating this post in the future. Goodbye!

EDIT:

More evidence of Vivziepop using abusive language and slander against her employees behind their back. Claims of them being a "stalker" (like she did to Kedi and also its clear that she told her employees to say that Kaz was a "stalker" otherwise how else would they be saying these things after she fired them.) along with using abusive language such as "CUNT!" to prefer to Kaz this way in a professional setting I cannot. 💀

More evidence of Vivziepop harassing a kid:

ANOTHER edit:

More evidence, she's burning them the HELL out!

Yet ANOTHER edit:

More evidence of Spindlehorse being abusive:

EDIT:

Even MORE evidence:

The fact that the story AND the storyboards AND the animating for season one's episodes were all done in one year is just so crazy to me like... WHAT?! Either way, this post will continue to extend the more that I find evidence. So remember to look forward to that one!

EDIT:

Sadly no, as animation abuse is so common that the police dont even see it as an issue. The last time I tried to call the police on her they needed a location. The problem? There is no location of Spindlehorse since it's a "private" studio. So because of that viv gets away with abuse despite the obvious implications of her behavior and how many people came out with allegations towards her.

[chaoticace2005]

Top Hazbin Hotel Songs so far: (order not super relevant because I jump a lot between my favorites so it’s hard to have a definitive ranking.)

(Note: ALL the songs were bops. There wasn’t a single one I disliked. I’m just going off which ones hit me the hardest and are now living in my head.)

1. Stayed Gone- this song is just so fucking catchy. The quick talking of Vox at the beginning is great- displaying confidence while also clearly overcompensating. The music is pretty repetitive at first but in a comforting way, being simple in terms of number of instruments. And then Al comes in and changes it up. I love the way these two argue- Al just roasting the hell out of Vox was great. The rivalry between these two is great and so entertaining to watch.

2. Loser Baby- so cute. Keith David’s voice was amazing. Loved Angel and Husk’s chemistry. Angel’s shock/annoyance at Husk at first is hilarious. Also songs like that and Crooked (from Helluva Boss) really are saying something’s we really don’t hear often enough: that things are a mess sometimes, but that doesn’t mean you’re alone. Both songs acknowledge the messy parts of the characters and both say “I see that, but that doesn’t mean I don’t care for you.” Plus it being in the same episode as Poison? Their messages complimented each other well and kind of closed the story for it.

3. Poison- Blake Roman is just- wow. No words. When this song came out a couple weeks ago I had it on repeat obsessively. We get to see Angel’s internal thoughts- his self-blaming for all the shit that’s happening, and how hopeless he feels. The emotion poured into this is astounding. It was amazing as a stand-alone song, and then the way the show integrated it in episode 4 made it hit even harder. It’s definitely A LOT- but sometimes that’s what makes such hard hitting songs, being so personal.

4. Hell is Forever- Alex Brightman killed it as always. I listened to this one on repeat dozens of times. It’s so insanely catchy. The rock(?) music that comes in to cut Charlie off? Also this song nails in the fact even more than Adam SUCKS. And while this is happening we are delivered the logic behind the angel’s choices- explicitly saying “yeah we don’t care. Murder is fun :)” AND are given the information about major conflict of season- that the extermination day for moved up.

5. Respectless- got brain worms from this. The way Velvette dropped in and changed the whole genre of the song was A W E S O M E. Her and Carmilla both SLAPPED. Also the line “I’m the backbone of the Vees” was just- I just loved the energy of the song. Major Six vibes. I’d love Lilli Cooper to sing more in the show!

[m4tthewmurd0ck]

stand and fight

── jacaerys velaryon x fem!targaryen reader

surprise i can’t contain myself so this is a series shdbxndjfvnsj

little a/n before we begin ── CHANGING AGES!! jace is only 13 when aegon is crowned king but in this, you and he are both 18. as with my aegon piece, i know everyone’s long names and titles but for the sake of not typing it out each time i use first names (i.e. criston instead of ser criston cole). reader is alicent and viserys’ child, but is living with rhaenyra and her family because she was always of the opinion that her father wanted rhaenyra to be queen. even once aegon was crowned, she refused to refer to him as king. as a result this caused a huge feud with reader against alicent, aegon, and aemond and she was all but banished from her home. about 2 weeks after aegon is crowned, reader and dragon (stormfyre) ran away and have been with rhaenyra and fam ever since. of everyone on team black, you’re closest with jace. everyone suspects something romantic between you both, but nothing has happened as of the start of this. takes place before, and during season 2 episode 4. you’ve been warned

wc: 1.6k (future chapters will be much longer and feature a lot more of jace, promise!)

PART ONE

Your relationship with Jacaerys (not that you could really call it a relationship), wasn’t always how it is now. He wasn’t the one you sought out when you wanted quiet but not alone time, and you weren’t the first person he searched for when he entered the room. Certainly not when you first arrived and Rhaenyra announced that you’d be staying with them.

In fact, in the beginning, you were sure he hated you.

Being on opposing sides of this ‘war’, part of the reason why he took such a strong disliking to you was because he thought he had to. You, on the other hand, were the complete opposite. You’d long since grown tired of hating people simply because you were told to.

On the evening you and Stormfyre ran away, the entire time you were flying was spent worrying and just praying to the Gods that you wouldn’t be turned away, or killed.

Rhaenyra was there to greet you when Stormfyre finally landed, and once you told her how bad things had gotten at home and that you didn’t know where else to go, she immediately offered you a room. Though you were Alicent’s daughter, you were still her half sister and had always been kind to her and her children. She knew you wanted no part in this feud, that you and Helaena were innocent in all of it.

After you wrote a note and Rhaenyra sent a raven to deliver it to Alicent, she informed you that they were just about to sit down and have dinner and she’d love for you to join them.

The first thing you noticed as you took your seat across from Lucerys, was how Jacaerys was glaring at you.

No one had taken more than a few bites before he put his fork down and loudly stood up.

“Why is she here?” He pointed at you, not even bothering to hide his anger.

“Jacaerys sit down,” Rhaenyra shook her head. “You know as well as I do that she is innocent in all of this. I have invited her—”

“To stay with us? You’ve got to be fucking kidding me, she’s one of them! How do you know—”

Hearing that last part, Rhaenyra pushed her chair back and stood up. “Do not speak to me in that way, I will not tolerate it. I have invited her to stay for as long as she’d like and that is final. Now sit down.”

“Yes Your Grace.” The sarcasm was loud and clear, but Rhaenyra opted to ignore it since he did in fact sit down again.

You had your worries, but this confirmed it. You couldn’t stay. On the way over you told yourself that if anyone showed hesitation or anger at you being there, you’d leave as soon as you felt safe to do so. To live in a place where you were in fear of saying the wrong thing or suddenly being asked to leave, was no different than if you’d remained at home.

“Your Grace, I am a bit tired. Thank you for the lovely meal but if it’s alright I’d like to retire for the evening.”

Jacaerys once again didn’t even attempt to hide his anger. He rolled his eyes as he continued to eat.

“Of course, please don’t hesitate to ask if there’s anything you need.” She gave you a small smile, and as soon as you turned the corner you could hear her beginning to bicker with her eldest son.

After you’d been in your room about an hour, there was a series of soft knocks at your door. If you’d been doing anything other than laying in bed, you probably wouldn’t have heard.

When you opened the door and were greeted by Lucerys, to say you were surprised was an understatement.

“My Prince, I —”

He gave you that look, the I’m a kid please don’t use my title it’s weird look, and when you tried again and called him by his first name, he smiled. His hands had previously been behind his back and when he brought them forward, in each was a small plate with what appeared to be some sort of cake.

“Jace was rude and I know that’s why you didn’t finish dinner,” he said simply.

You opened your mouth to say that wasn’t true, but when he gave you that look again you couldn’t help but laugh.

“For being so young, you’re quite perceptive.”

He nodded as he sat down and handed you a plate. “Mom says I’m good at reading people. I forgot forks so we’ll have to use our hands.”

“You wish to stay and eat with me?”

Again, the young boy nodded. “It’s not fun to eat alone.”

The first few minutes, the 2 of you simply enjoyed the desserts in silence. You were relieved to find that it was a comfortable silence. When you were both finished, Lucerys, who insisted you call him Luke, took the plates and said he’d be right back. When he returned only a moment later, his first question surprised you.

“Why did you run away?”

“I — it’s complicated. Since Aegon was crowned king, there have been a lot of… fights.”

“You don’t think he should be king?”

You wondered how much to tell him, seeing as he was only 11. “No,” you decided to just tell the truth. “I think your mom should be.”

“She’s your… half sister, right?”

You nodded. “Yes, she’s my half sister. The same way that Aegon, Helaena, and Aemond are her other half siblings.”

“Do you not like them?”

“My other siblings?”

He nodded.

“I’m using this word too much, but it’s complicated. My relationship with each of them is different. Or was, before things went bad. Aegon and I used to be inseparable when we were really little. Everyone used to joke that we were twins. Though I’m a year older than Aemond, I always looked up to him. He’s the one who taught me how to use a sword, and I will always be grateful for that. Helaena and I are still close, she understands why I left. In fact that reminds me I need to ask your mom if I may send a raven to her tomorrow.”

“Even if you don’t think he should be king, why did you leave? Did they hurt you?”

“No, not yet anyway,” you gave a sad smile. “But it wasn’t just them that made me fearful. Other people haven’t been so kind. It’s why I’m so grateful that I’m allowed to be here, even if it’s only temporary.”

Luke looked surprised, as if it hadn’t occurred to him that you’d leave. “But you’ll stay with us for a while right? I’ll talk to Jace, I swear it.”

You quickly wiped a tear and smiled at the young boy in front of you. “That means a lot to me, truly. But please don’t talk to your brother on my behalf. He has made it clear I’m unwelcome and I fear that anything you say will make him angry with you as well.”

“If you don’t stay, will you have to return home?”

That was something you hadn’t even thought about. Initially while flying you feared being rejected. But even if that did happen, what would your plan have been?

“Possibly. I do not know where else I would go.”

“Jacer— there you are, you’ve had us searching everywhere,” Rhaenyra smiling as she saw how comfortable her son was around you. “Why don’t you let her get some sleep, hmm? You can see her in the morning.”

He groaned, but Luke did give you a hug and a “goodnight” before heading out of your room.

Rhaenyra turned to follow her son, then turned back around to face you again as she thought of something she wanted to say.

“I’d just like to apologize for my older son. I do not know what has gotten into him as of late but he had no right to speak to or about you that way. I will see to it that he—”

“Please, Your Grace—” she gives you that same look that Luke did, and you smile at how similar they look. “Rhaenyra, you and he have nothing to apologize for. I am technically one of them, and I’m intruding on your home.”

She is quick to shake her head. “You’re not intruding. I know what it can be like over there, and for your wellbeing I am glad that you felt safe enough to come here. We will think of next steps for tomorrow, although I really do hope you’ll stay a while. It seems Luke does too. I’ll let you get some rest now.”

“Thank you, I don’t know how I’ll ever repay you,” you get off of the bed and embrace your sister for the first time in who knows how long. She rubs circles on your back and it brings tears to your eyes, your own mom wouldn’t ever embrace you like this.

Rhaenyra leaves a few minutes later, and you finally crawl into bed.

As you lay there and wait for sleep to come, you think about the events of today. And you can’t help it, eventually your mind drifts to the boy who sat across from you.

With the dirty looks he gave you, how he spoke about you as if you weren’t there, there’s no doubt in your mind that he hates you.

It’s hard to believe that if Aegon weren’t crowned King, and Rhaenyra held her place on the iron throne, that Jacaerys would’ve been the next heir.

Even harder to believe is that to ensure both families remained united, you and he would’ve already gotten married.

You finally start to feel sleepy, and just before you drift off, your final thoughts are of Jacerys. If you do end up staying, you wonder if things will always be like this.

TAGLIST ──

@simpingbigtime | @chillingyuh | @themoon-mine | @greenvita | @frostooo | @darylspersonalwhore | @athxnss | @thatbird-fromrio | @yohanseyebrowmole | @koobratzy | @ganertys | @kodzuvk | @lovelyteenagebeard | @m1lilachp | @lotus-888

[gguk-n]

Can you please write enemies to lovers with Lando where they have their first kiss accidentally using the following prompt :

"Is this some kind of game to you?" She asked, anger in his words. "Are my feelings nothing but a silly little game to you?" He shook his head, the sensation of her lips on his still lingering on his skin. "Never," he told her. "I've been wanting to do that since we first met."

Pit Lane Rivals to Race Partners (Lando Norris x Engineer!Reader)

{Reader's POV}

I knew what I was getting into when I signed the contract with Mclaren as their engineer. Since I had freshly graduated with very little experience I was mostly going to be assisting the other engineers and learning from them. I had been in love with cars since I was little. I remember taking apart the toy cars and trying to put them back together only to be scolded by my mother since my siblings were crying because I broke their toys. Seeing how destructive I had gotten even for a 4 year old, my dad decided I needed to release my energy else where and took me karting. It was the most exciting and the best thing I had ever done. Learning how the machine worked and how to control it as I grew older was my biggest passion in life.

That was what led me to karting races. I was an aggressive driver and anyone who got in my way would feel my wrath. I made sure not to cause a lot of physical or collateral damage. But I did cause one boy a lot of emotional damage. Both of us were fiercely competitive and neither of us liked to lose. Our races always ended with Lando behind me and he could never really take it. I had a good laugh but all of this turned sour when we had a huge fight after a race crash and he pined the entire blame on me when he too was trying to run me off the track. Both our dad's had to intervene and that's how I ended up hating Lando. But I was 11 years old. Right now, I'm older and more mature and I don't really hate anyone, it a strong word. I might dislike people but I don't hate anyone. And the incident with Lando is a funny memory at best.

Lando went up to become a Formula one driver while I had to cut my dreams short since there weren't a lot of opportunities for female racers. I instead took the more academic route and got my degree in automobile engineering and strived to become a race engineer or racing principle one day. So, when I was able to apply for Mclaren which was well on it's way to become the best car on the grid, I couldn't say no. I also thought about Lando, and how I expected to have a bit of a laugh with him about out 'karting rivalry' now that we were older. What I didn't expect was that the boy who's eyes I almost gauged out was still as petty as ever.

It was the first race of the season, in Bahrain and we had flown in a few days before the drivers to get everything set up. So on the day Lando came up to the garage, all the new recruits were introduced to the drivers. Oscar was a sweetheart and even offered us words of encouragement since we were on the same boat. Lando greeted everyone but me properly. He ignored my hand when I raised it up to shake his. I was shocked and my mouth was left hung open. If he wanted to be petty, I can be petty. I made sure to avoid him like the plague and the times we interacted were filled with sarcastic remarks.

Oscar and I had grown pretty close and shared a sibling dynamic. Whenever Lando saw us interacting he would have a scowl on his face. And then a couple months later, Oscar stopped talking to me other then exchanging a few pleasantries. It hurt a little when Oscar ignored me and walked away. I thought we were friends. I felt like I had lost another friend since I joined Mclaren. The first one being Lando, since I imagined that we would've been friends since we karted together but it turns out I was completely wrong. Honestly, he was my first crush too, so it hurt a little more.

Eventually, Lando had gotten a little bearable and he had stopped passing snarky remarks whenever I would suggest a strategy or an upgrade. Each snarky remark and not having a proper friend after losing Oscar too, was starting to get to me. After the DNF in Austria and how pissed Lando was, not many people were willing to confront him; me included. If he hated my guts on a regular day, he would tear me apart today, I thought.

At the end of the day, as were packing up, I ran into Lando. I decided to extend my condolences. "Hi Lando" I said as I almost bumped into his shoulder while stacking up the papers. He looked at me and just nodded, as if to acknowledge my presence. I decide to let it go, since it was bad day for him. "You did pretty well today" I said cautiously. He let out a forced laugh, "ha, you must be so happy. Watching me fall apart" he retorted. "What no?" I replied shocked. "You've always hated me, since we were kids. You left no stone unturned to make me feel like shit. You weren't even a good sport" He spat out. "Ok, Lando, I get it. You had a bad day, it was a bad day for us too. But that doesn't give you the right to say whatever you like." I replied trying to keep my breathing constant. "You were a spoilt sport and always got what you wanted. It must your life's joy watching me struggle" he seethed. "Listen here mister, don't you dare direct your anger towards the one person you see right now. Whatever happened was a race incident and you need to put your big boy pants on and deal with it. Stop being a spoilt brat and taking your anger out on others." I replied calmly. If that asshole said anything else, I was about to slap him. Lando stepped closer, trapping me in between the desk and him. "You think you are so mature and above everyone else don't you" he sneered. Okay, I've had it with him. He has made my life difficult since I set foot in Mclaren. Before I knew it, my hand touched his cheek with a harsh sound.

His eyes were wide open. Before I could say anything, I felt a pair of warm lips on mine. I quickly pushed him away. "Is this some kind of game to you?" I asked, anger in my words. "Are my feelings nothing but a silly little game to you?" He shook his head, the sensation of my lips on his still lingering on his skin. "Never," he told me. "I've been wanting to do that since we first met after so many years." It was my turn to laugh. "You don't say" I chided. "Believe me Y/N I really like you. And I'm sorry for the way I've behaved. I really needed that slap to set me straight" he said while massaging his cheek. "Don't fuck with me" I replied with tears in my eyes. "Then why did you Oscar stop talking to me?" I croaked. "I got jealous" he replied, head held in shame. "I'm sorry. It's just I couldn't stand you laughing at his jokes. I wish I was the one making you laugh." he mumbled. "I wanted us to be friends when I first came here, you were the one who pushed me away." I replied sternly. "I was a stupid kid and I didn't know how to react when I saw my childhood crush." he muttered. I was shocked.

"Give me one chance, I'll repent for my sins and wrong all my rights." he begged. Honestly I wanted to kiss Lando before he started being an ass to me when I first saw him after so many years; maybe I should let my intrusive thoughts win. I pressed my lips against him while my hands found his neck. For a moment, he was still, there was no movement and within seconds I felt his lips move and his hands find a place on my waist. After we pulled away, "I had a crush on you when we were kids too. But I wasn't an ass when we met after so many years." I remarked, "but I'll give you a chance, prove me that you've matured and maybe I'll start thinking about that crush I used to have on you." Lando smiled, "Okay, yes, I'll prove how much I like you" he said while almost hitting the chair on the way out. "Dinner date at 8, I'll pick you up, tomorrow" he called out as he ran off making me laugh.

[ballerinarina]

𐙚LET'S TALK ABOUT... DIEGO, LILA & FIVE

Okay, firstly I need to state that I'm going to say my impressions about the season four of The Umbrella Academy, focusing on the subway plotline. My considerations are very long (I'm talkative!) and about what I watched in the episodes and what I read on social media, so, I am totally open to opinions too!!

As an hyperfocused girl, I've been thinking about the subway arc plot decision during an absurd amout of time. I watched it a few times and read a lot of opinions. Yet, I still feel a little... surprised (?) by the intense hate over it.

It's not about liking or disliking the new couple that I'm talking about. Since naturally people would prefer one ship over another, it was obviously waited that the opinions would be divided.

I just... can't understand why people hated it so much as if it was a bad plot decision. Diego and Lila are beautiful together, i agree! They have a long, real and strong love story together. But why people are acting like this new plotline erased all their relationship together? Relationships are more complex than that.

Feelings are more complex than that. Humans are.

Actually, I may say that the psychological development that happens in the subway is way more interesting because Lila and Diego love each other, as much as Five loves Diego too.

This being said, I don't mean that I think a cheating plotline is interesting because of the cheating. I actually use to dislike it a lot. However, dealing with cheating in a black-and-white way as if it's an indefendible action is not clever. Sometimes, some things I read make me realize that people are so stuck into traditional morals that their capacity of thinking and analyzing complex emotional situations is kind of... damaged.

𝐒𝐨... 𝐋𝐢𝐥𝐚 𝐗 𝐃𝐢𝐞𝐠𝐨 𝐨𝐫 𝐋𝐢𝐥𝐚 𝐗 𝐅𝐢𝐯𝐞?

The Umbrella Academy is known as a series with very human and complex characters. That's what makes it so good, from the beginning! That's why I think it's kind of sad to judge their relationship with a typical moral view.

Claiming that Lila didn't deserve Diego, for example is so... so sad. She was an amazing mother and wife. She tried to go back to them for six years and as soon as she could she went back! Not even thinking twice! She loves Diego, of course she does!

Loving Five doesn't make her love for Diego less strong.

I really don't think Lila X Five is just neediness, however, no way. They already spent two seasons constructing a beautiful (friend) relationship before and in this horrible context they spent a lot of time taking care of each other, being each other's support. Considering this and their communication development — jokes on season 3, kindness in the beginning of season 4 — it's not surprising or nonsense that it turned to become romantic. People and relationships change, love is built and adapted.

I don't think Lila stopped loving Diego (i mean romantically, but even if she did, she surely didn't in other ways of loving that are as beautiful as it is) but that doesn't make her love for Five false, and Five loving and having a relationship with her doesn't make him a bad brother either. That's why I emphasized that TUA is a series with complex relationships. Why do you get upset and surprised when another relationship between complicated characters is built due to the tragedies of the script?

If this didn't cause outrage before, could it cause because, this time, when things get complicated, the plot resource used questions the standard romantic drama format expected by the system?

𝐍𝐨𝐧𝐬𝐞𝐧𝐬𝐞 𝐩𝐥𝐨𝐭? 𝐎𝐮𝐭 𝐨𝐟 𝐜𝐡𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐜𝐭𝐞𝐫?

I guess one of the main arguments I saw was that their relationship didn't make any sense and that their scenes were extremely out of character, but I don't think it could be sustained when they both are characters who go through a lot that makes them change, alone or together. What they're claiming being out of character may simply be character development under non-ideal circumstances.

It seems like there's an strong resistance to open their minds while watching and realize that love isn't something that can only happen once and/or once at a time and under ideal situations. Diego and Lila's marriage crisis, Five and Lila developing ther friendship inbetween work cumplicity, Five looking more lost and tired in his decisions than before, the fact that it is the second time he has been trapped in space-time — which is a big trauma for him, since, from the first season (in the first apocalypse) we have been shown that, despite being introverted, arrogant and reserved, it is precisely "relating" that serves as a point of refuge for Five not to go crazy, lowering his guard and being kind...

All of this constructs very well their psychological coherency. "He wouldn't treat her like that during season 2 or 3!", "Lila would never be a domestic mother/ Five wouldn't work do CIA!". Well, we're talking about them now, not there.

One of the plot decisions to start this season was that the characters were living between what they kind-of-desired, but things still weren't fine, they still weren't getting what they wanted.

Five being free from the world-ending, but stll not being able to relax and live a simple retired life as he wanted. Klaus being sober and free of the ghosts, but insecure and anxious. Allison having Claire and Ray, but still unable to live a happy marriage and career. Viktor having his place working with something that makes him comfortable, but still unable to find love. Diego and Lila having a family and marriage and still unable to feel happy because the domestic work dynamic wasn't working...

Adulthood. Real life. None of those situations were out of character, as much as none of the psychological changes they suffered were too.

𝐀 𝐜𝐨𝐧𝐜𝐥𝐮𝐬𝐢𝐨𝐧 𝐚𝐛𝐨𝐮𝐭 𝐜𝐨𝐧𝐬𝐞𝐫𝐯𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐬𝐦

Since I don't really see the point on why would all of the happenings between them three could be claimed as "nonsense", even less "unasked" or "unnecessary" — because it's a work of fiction and, even if it may not be what the public wants to watch, it is not something that needs to prove its usefulness, just as events (that tie together well, because coherency matters) do not need to prove their necessity in art —, so it makes me even more sad that clearly mostly of the reactions are based on conservative views of marriage.

I know this season is not perfect, and it had a lot of defects, so I'm not saying the arc is perfect. As all the other arcs, it happened in a hurry, making us the public less abl to feel the 7 years of development. Complaining about how the arc was executed is perfectly fine, actually: after all, we know that 4 episodes were cut from the original script, as were many recorded scenes (including a big part of the subway plotline).

AIDAN: "There's a lot of the relationship with Lila that we filmes but they cut it. It took weeks to film it and they used a few minutes in a montage. That wasn't right. It also made very hard for the viewers to believe when we spent weeks filming scenes to set up that scenario."

But when I bring the conservatism theme (misoginy and remnants/consequences of the monogamous religious structure), it's because, even if we have lots of other of worse defects on other parts of the season, the biggest public overreacting opinions have been undoubtly about Five and Lila.

Anyone who spends more than 2 minutes in the comments on Twitter, Tiktok or even here knows that most of the time people've been sad and angry treating them both as if they were turned into cheaters with no morals (Five as a new kind of scroundrel asshole, Lila as some kind of ungrateful whore and I've even seen people problematizing their enemies phase, or the age difference as if one of then, or even the director, were predators, which is pure nonsense) and I can't even express how it makes me deeply melancholic.

I can't see how reacting as if the situations they were put in and their actions toward it in the scripts were absurd, terrible and dumb can't be just conservative, because they were actually very well tied script decisions, used in a bold way. With an interesting and well written enemies to frenemies to friends to lovers trope, they managed to write something fun and that developed both of the characters in their early-season-conflicts-arising-from-other-seasons.

𝐒𝐨? 𝐖𝐡𝐚𝐭 𝐝𝐨 𝐲𝐨𝐮 𝐦𝐞𝐚𝐧 𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐧, 𝐂𝐞𝐂𝐞?

I truly just... Can't understand how some people ended up having collectively such insensitive opinions about the relationship of two characters who were so... vulnerable.

Non-ironically I even saw a lot of people defending they would prefer Five to end up with a “real life Dolores” plotline (since the author felt the need of a romance) than with Lila, or that he shouldn't ever fall in love with anyone else than Dolores. It sounds so... Insane. I can't see how someone can have any kind of shipping-affection for his "sick" relationship with Dolores. It was, for me, a completely heartbroken arc.

While watching this new season, actually, it made me almost warmly happy, as a Five fan, to see him having someone to take care of him in hard times like that. Last time he didn't have it. They loved each other, they constructed this love and even if it was constructed under a refuge, extremely vulnerable situation, as much as even if it was constructed over a hopeless and trust-breaking decision towards their loved Diego, it doesn't make it less real and beautiful.

They aren't bad people. They aren't cheaters. They were desperate.

I'm happy they found love in each other. They were victims but managed to construct a beautiful relationship to survive and it doesn't make them love less Diego, as a brother or as a lover.

Of course it breaks completely my heart that Diego and Five died without making peace, but while watching not even for a moment I considered that they stopped loving each other. They're brothers, they've went through a lot.

They were doing so fine getting along together since they came back from the apocalypse.... There's no way it would "destroy" and "erase" (terms used by some fans) all the progress that's been made... I think it would be a very shallow interpretation of their relationship and a very futile interpretation of the events. Some of the public is seeing the situation as if Five slept with his wife since the beginning, not as if he had felt in love with her in a very apocaliptical and hopeless situation.

It's essential to remember that nothing said romantic happened for six years. It turned this way only after they having practically given up hope of returning home, so exhausted they were.

I really don't think that such a desperate and lonely situation would erase all the love and dedication Diego have for Five (and Five has no reasons to stop feeling it for Diego too, obviously). Diego was totally the sweetest during this season, he did his best, but Five did too... Now they fought but it doesn't mean their relationship would be forever broken. They were both stressed out, of course, it was a sensitive situation. But, i don't think it would... However with an apocalypse going on, they just didn't have enough time.

Diego was clearly open to understand Lila better, so I really doubt he wouldn't try to do the same with Five. But, again, they were both heart broken, hot headed and with no time. It's sad and it affect them, but "destroy and erase" are very heavy terms and inconsistent with the context of their relationships.

I don't know. I don't know how to conclude this analysis. I just… Am sorry. I honestly feel lucky to have been able to experience Diego, Lila and Five, but I'm so sorry that I couldn't see these three hearts find peace in their complicated loves, even during their final moments. These are three very beautiful love relationships that grew up tangled up and that, unfortunately, couldn't unfold in time to hurt less their lovers.

It felt wonderful and desolate. I hope more people can feel it like i did.

[starbeltconstellation]

I don’t think they are bad and some survived order 66 Quinlan Vos was one of them. But I do believe they lost their way by the end of the clone wars because most lost their way or watered down their beliefs becoming to caught up in image and pandering to the senate (palps *cough*) even yoda said basically that a dark shroud surround them (Sith made) but they made themselves susceptible to it with arrogance, becoming inflexible, and a strange combo of attachment and detachment. Even mace windu was attached to the republic which is one of the reasons he was so defensive and disliked Anakin he saw him as a threat to his republic.

I’m not trying to hate on the Jedi just make sure that in discussing the Jedi we remember the good and bad. The Jedi did a lot of good, they made one of the longest major peace times the galaxy had ever seen, that’s 1000 years of peace time after ending the Sith war. And actually Luke skywalker, Ezra Bridger, Ahsoka (rebellion), and season 4 Kanan were prime examples of what the Jedi were originally. I just think when palpatine started pulling strings and corrupting everything to take power it made slow brewing Jedi problems 10x worse as some Jedi like Barriss Offee’s master mixed up avoiding negative attachment with being cold and callous because while a Jedi master should avoid “possessive” attachment especially in a way that would hold their student back they should have a good bond with them because emotional bonds are one of the pillars of trust.

-that’s my take, I’m not sure what you meant by no Jedi haters though. So if this crosses your line then I’m sorry I can see myself out cause I don’t want to start a conflict 😅

Hello, anon. 👋

Firstly, I just want to DEEPLY apologize for the long wait in my response. 😅🤦‍♀️ I try not to get behind on asks, but life has been crazy for me at the moment, and especially with longer asks like yours, I really want to take my time and give a good and in depth response.

Now, just right off the bat: I don’t mind discussing things. As long as it doesn’t get nasty and full of insults. So I’m not about to bite your head off.

In fact, I am going to take the time to use your ask to refute all of these critical/anti Jedi points, proving how most of it is Palpatine’s propaganda that the galactic citizens/SW fandom has grown to believe because it’s easier to have a big bad scapegoat (ie; the Jedi boogie man) than for galactic citizens to grapple with the fact that they themselves are also a part of the problem because THEY are the ones who vote in politicians in the Senate (who are a lot corrupt, except like a handful like Mon Mothma/Bail Organa/Riyo Chuchi/Padmé/etc. And even Padmé wasn’t a complete saint like a lot of fans think, since she purposely hid Anakin’s Tusken massacre just because she didn’t want to give up her new hot murder husband who was obsessively adoring over her/loved her), and THEY are the ones who also got the most complacent, are they not? After all… if the fandom blames the JEDI… why didn’t the CITIZENS clock anything wrong until suddenly an Empire was telling them to hand over all their freedoms or die?

It’s really easy to sit back and say what you would’ve done in the Jedi’s position, because the audience has more information than they do. What Dooku and Qui-Gon told them is the equivalent of being told they saw a unicorn (Sith) in the wild. It’s not that out there that there’d be some doubts from the Council, and people seem to forget that the Council STILL said they’d look into it. But they aren’t magic. They can’t just snap their fingers and see that Palpatine is the Sith Lord. Especially with the Darkness cloaking their Force senses. I think it’s kinda… gross? To blame them for something Palpatine was causing (the cloaking Darkness) that was literally part of the plan to genocide them. Just a thought, but maybe that should be Palpatine’s and Anakin’s fault, where it belongs? Lol. Sorry if I sound a little snippy, it’s just this is a tired and running around in circles argument (although I do think your ask is a genuine one, which is why I’m taking the time to answer it and perhaps if not change YOUR mind, then change someone else’s that might read this. I’m trying to reach more across the aisle here, because both sides I’ll admit have moments where they only want to be defensive and not explain their positions).

It’s funny how people always point out that the Jedi missed brewing corruption (they totally knew about it and tried to fight against it how they could. But just like in real life, I’m unsure what people expect from them. To strut into the Senate and threaten/murder the politicians into submission? Because ya know… that was kinda the red flag Anakin gave off with that “They should be made to!” line to Padmé. Just saying. 🤷‍♀️ Just like anyone, Jedi know the politicians of the Republic are slowly being corrupt (just like MOST politicians in real life, and you don't see everyone condemning all US citizens because we don't go clean them out like assassins or something), but there isn't anything they can do about that unless you expect them to go in and wave their lightsabers around to threaten the politicians into submission. As if Palpatine wouldn't immediately twist that into his favor to say they were "trying to take over the Republic". (And oh wait—he did that in the movies! Funny how that works, huh?)

What I think is interesting about you and about a lot of Jedi fans (including LH, who is the writer of The Acolyte) is that you THINK you’re being “fair” to the Jedi, but you’re kinda… not? 🤷‍♀️😅 And I’m not saying that as an insult. I’m saying it because it’s true.

Let me explain: There are rabid anti Jedi fans known as the infamous Karen Travis’s who is basically a rapid and foaming at the mouth Jedi anti who believes they “got what was coming to them.🤢🥶” LH on the other hand (at least in HER head), views herself as Jedi CRITICAL (which is something you clearly view yourself as as well. And there’s nothing wrong with being Jedi critical. The problem is that a lot of times this “criticism” becomes condescending, whether intentional or not, despite maybe the person’s best intentions). And while there is a little bit of a difference there, it’s not as stark a line as fans would try to convince us pro Jedi’s to believe.

As I mentioned to someone else in my other ask: there are plenty of fair criticisms about the Jedi that I can acknowledge: the Shimi thing, for one, which is I think just a bad symptom of GL’s writing being more “metaphorical” than literal. Shimi HAS to stay on Tatooine because Anakin eventually HAS to murder the Tuskens in cold blood so GL can tell the story he wants to tell of how Anakin can’t let go, and so the Jedi are never given the opportunity to do what I truly BELIEVE they would’ve done, which is go back and free her, at least for the peace of mind of one of their newest initiate. The plot literally physically bars them from doing so.

And even THIS is not without its flaws, because they would ONLY have wiggle room to free Shimi after the heat of TPM problems had died down where they had time to do so… while walking past/avoiding eye contact with all of Shimi’s slave neighbors, because as specified before—The Jedi have no jurisdiction in the Outer Rim, and you bet your ass if they freed all those slaves and started a war with the Hutts with their little 10,000 strong army, the Republic would take one look and go “Lol, good luck with that,” and not help them at all, which would be basically suicide for the Order to try and accomplish on abolishment of slavery on the Outer Rim all on their own in the TRILLIONS of people in the galaxy. They do not have the MAN POWER for that. Not without the Senate army/clones. So how can they be blamed for this? WHY are one of the “space minorities” of the galaxy being blamed for something that should be the POLITICIANS’S job? Can you not see the double standard here? Genuinely asking, anon, because it’s always baffled me.

People want the Jedi to do something about it? Get on the Senate’s ass about it then—the REAL people who are responsible for all of the shit going wrong in the Outer Rim while they line their pockets and kiss up to clueless galactic citizens for votes come election time. THEY are the ones that should be responsible for the problems of an ENTIRE galaxy—not a small little minority group (which I’ve already come to realize that the Jedi are. They are a culture/religion/family, and 10,000 is but a drop in the ocean of the galaxy. They are so small in the grand scheme of things that it’s SCARY when considering how easy it was for Palpatine to lead them to almost total annihilation) that try and try and TRY as hard as they can, which is apparently somehow NEVER enough, for the galactic citizens AND the SW fandom itself.

And why is that? Why is it so HARD for SW fandom to relate to them? Why does LH (who I’m sure in her head BELIEVES she’s as progressive as they come, just as I genuinely believe you had the best intentions when reaching across the aisle to send me this ask, but at the end of the day still comes across frankly exhausting and a little condescending when you pick out the “good Jedi blorbos” who are ones that deserve to live and don’t have to be dehumanized as “emotionless/cold/callous” like you just did with Luminara just because Luminara chose to grieve in a way you and Anakin and many other rabid Anakin fans/anti Jedi’s view as lesser than) view the Jedi as some type of “space cops” who are “oppressing 🙄” the Sith as a representation of her religious trauma that she is clearly projecting onto them as something completely separate than what the Jedi Culture actually is? Why does she view them as “emotionally repressed” and “almost catholic-like”, and views the fucking SITH (literal SPACE NAZIS 😭🤦‍♀️) as a representation for her persecution as a gay woman?

It’s because—just like MOST SW fans in the US—she cannot fathom a culture outside of the lens of western philosophy. In her mind, the Jedi aren’t a “real 🙄🤢” family. In HER mind, the Jedi aren’t necessarily evil, but she still believes those “poor little culty Jedi 😔💔🙄” didn’t see they were ‘sewing their own destruction’. (Which is blaming them. It’s BLAMING the victims of genocide, and it’s to this day the most disgusting thing I will always remember about the show’s “your actions will cause the destruction of every Jedi in the galaxy” quote that made Twitter go wild with genocide apologia galore).

I’m not gonna repeat everything in the post I made to the other anon (this ask response is long enough already), but I’ll link it here in case you want to read it, because I do have some examples screenshotted of certain SW fandom dehumanizing the Jedi and showing genocide apologia, which proves that pro Jedi’s critique/defensiveness for the Jedi Order and their culture isn’t an overreaction or without basis, because it proves that blaming the Jedi for their own genocide is the NORM, even if people won’t admit so outright (still can’t believe The Acolyte just outright SAID it. I’m not gonna rub fans’s of the show’s faces in it, but because of that line alone, I’m SO glad that show was cancelled. Anti Jedi propaganda is already bad enough).

Also, I’m sorry to tell you this, anon, but the Mace Windu thing is just straight up wrong. I have never understood this Mace thing with the fandom. People act like Mace was personally bullying Anakin every damn day. Mace didn’t even hate Anakin. Just because Mace was a little stern with Anakin and didn't worship the ground he walked on didn't mean he hated/disliked him/was jealous of him (a frankly childish notion, in my opinion). They both just had different views over how to be a Jedi and in battle strategies during the war. It was never personal with Mace. Anakin MADE it personal, because he always took not being told "yes" personally, like it was a slight against him. He didn’t see Anakin as a threat to the Republic until literally the last free day of democracy when he looked at him and saw a giant shatterpoint all around Anakin. I think that would give any Jedi pause. Lol.

Mace was a fine Jedi who treated Anakin just fine. Just because he didn’t worship the ground Anakin walked on or treated him like God’s gift doesn’t mean that Mace was a bad person or Anakin was a “poor little guy” getting bullied by him. The thing with Mace refusing Anakin a seat on the Council is overblown. Frankly: Anakin didn’t DESERVE a seat on the Council. He might’ve been a powerful Jedi, but he was still hot headed and reckless and still had a lot to learn. And his temper tantrum when he didn’t get his way did him no favors either (look, I LOVE Anakin, but I’m not gonna be delusional about his faults, okay? Most of his problems were caused because he built them up out of thin air. He built up this rivalry with Mace in his head, when Mace was busy with his own life. Mace was not “out to get Anakin” or something. That’s—as kindly as I can say—something children tell themselves when angry at parents who tell them “no”, which Mace did a lot with Anakin). And I’m not gonna lie, anon. People have always seemed extra hard on Mace specifically, and while it might not be all of it, I think there’s a part of racism mixed in there with a proud black Jedi that isn’t afraid to stand up to the white and emo and hot future serial killer in the making (my hot Anakin! 🥰🥰😂). I’m not saying YOU specifically are being racist, but I’m just pointing out something that I’ve always felt reeked around the fandom opinion of Mace (more from the SW YouTube dudebro side of the fandom, but still).

I’m not gonna go and explain a play by play of all my points, because I got in a argument/discussion with someone on YouTube the other day (even though I know it’s bad for my blood pressure 😬😤😂), and I feel like the points I made there are perfect as a main response for this ask, so I’m going to place the screenshots here. This whole online debate came about when I was watching a SW lore video on Leia visiting Anakin’s grave after the ROTJ celebration and telling him she doesn’t forgive him, and one of the commentators called her a “brat”, which pissed me off. Lol. But anyway, we’ve been going back and forth the past few days, and I’ve basically made a mini pro Jedi manifesto, so I think all of the screenshots will answer most of your questions and also refute them to show how they are inaccurate and more of a fandom opinion that’s only come about because fans like Anakin and want to twist themselves into knots to blame everyone for his problems but him.

Here are all of the online person’s screenshots: you’ll notice how eventually he tries to justify Anakin killing the younglings as a “mercy”. 🥶🥶🤢 Yikes.

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Here are my responses:

Damn. Apparently there’s a screenshot limit. 😭 I’ll copy paste the rest:

Leia had every right to come and get closure if she needed to. Anakin personally tortured her himself after all. She has a personal stake in this through being tortured by their own FATHER that Luke doesn't have. Whether she wanted to go to make sure the person she viewed as a monster was dead, or to try and get some closure from what Luke had told her, it was within her rights to do so. She understood EVERYTHING perfectly. She knew who Anakin had been for years before the last five minutes of his death, and that was someone who'd terrorized the galaxy.

Lol, Anakin wasn't "fulfilling the will of The Force" as his reign on the Dark Side for 20 something years. He fulfilled the will of the Force when he finally got off his ass and killed Palpatine to end the last of the Sith. It's a copout to pretend any of his other actions were anything but his own choice, otherwise his 'redemption' means squat. She doesn't owe him anything just because he stopped the horror by killing Palpatine. It's the LEAST he could've done. You seem to believe that one action somehow should buy Anakin forgiveness in the eyes of all of his victims, and if they don't forgive him, then they're "brats" or something. Redemption doesn't work like that. You don't do the right thing because you'll get something out of it. You do it to be selfless and because it's simply the right thing to do. And I can tell you that Anakin would probably disagree with your opinion on Leia being a "brat" himself once he was back on the Light Side, because the whole point is that he'd be REPENTANT. Not being arrogant and expecting blind forgiveness for things that are quite frankly unforgivable.

Luke's forgiveness is a GIFT. It is NOT something that has to be the norm, and Leia is no less because she chooses not to forgive Anakin. She has every right to never view him as her father till her dying days.

Anakin had EVERYTHING to do with the explosion of Alderaan. This BS certain fans spout of "that was Tarkin" is nonsense. Anakin had agency. He could've tried to stop Tarkin or tried to leave the Empire way before that moment. Just because it was hard, he chose not to. EVERYONE on board the Death Star that weren't prisoners are responsible for the destruction of Alderaan. And yes, that includes Anakin. As I said before, Tarkin would only be given the highest sentence in court because he chose to order the planet destroyed. But Anakin would still be charged right along with him in a court of law. Just because Anakin had a traumatic life, doesn't excuse the things he's done. That's like saying a school shooter/serial killer has no agency over killing their victims just because they had a “hard life.” It’s a frankly illogical argument.

Anakin as 'Vader' could've choked Tarkin out right there. Who's gonna stop him? He's survived dozens of enemies in the comics. Him not having "authority" is a copout. Anakin was given plenty of authority in the Empire. He was just still Palpatine's lapdog at the end of the day. Hell—he could've grew a spine and left the Empire years BEFORE that moment. He does not get a free pass for "following orders".

Lol, Anakin does NOT have borderline personality disorder. That’s a fanon theory. That is NOT actually canon and George never said that. GL says Anakin fell because of his greed for power to never feel weak like he did as a child and because he was afraid to let go. The Jedi didn't fail him. He failed THEM. He's the one who fucking genocided them after all. Their entire culture is literally mental empathy because they're space wizards. There were times when Yoda and Obi-Wan all but BEG Anakin to open his mouth and say what's wrong, and he either refuses or is so vague that there's no way to glean what his main problem is (when Anakin talks to Yoda about Padmé and won't just ADMIT it's about Padmé). People can't help you if you don't meet them halfway. Anakin refused to do that. That's on him. Not on any of his victims. And even if he DID have borderline personality disorder (which is just a fanon theory), he'd STILL be responsible for his actions. It's amazing how much fans blame everyone else under the sun than the man who choked his wife. Lol.

I don't think Anakin is emotionless or incapable of care or goodness. That's the whole point of Luke, after all. I simply deny not giving him the agency to make his own decisions. He WAS a monster. What else do you call killing little kids who beg for your help? But the point of Luke is that Anakin ALWAYS had the opportunity to turn from his actions and be better. He just didn't find the spine until ROTJ. And that's great! He turned back to the light and his soul found salvation. But he is NOT redeemed in the eyes of anyone but Luke. It's laughable to think otherwise or that he wouldn't have been executed if he'd survived. And it's illogical to blame his victims and call them "brats" just because they won't forgive someone who was once basically space Hitler.

Despite what you may think, I love Anakin's character and the tragedy of him. I love that he found salvation in the end. But I DESPISE treating him like a child who didn't know what he was doing. He knew. He was selfish for twenty years. LUKE is who taught him how to be selfless. Everything else is on him. You can't call him the greatest 'redemption' of all time and then blame everyone else for his actions.

Because then what is there to redeem?

Nothing.

You can't have both. Pick one. 🤷‍♀️

What does it matter that Anakin as 'Vader' knew that Palpatine wouldn't praise Tarkin for such a cruel and useless thing in destroying a planet just to look a little tough? That doesn't mean shit. Just because Tarkin eventually gets what was coming to him, doesn't mean that Anakin couldn't have sped up Tarkin's demise right there. Good actions don't work like that: "Oh, it didn't really matter that he didn't try to save Alderaan! Because in the end Tarkin gets his karma!" (Anakin gets his karma too, by the way. You could argue from his burns or the fact that the only way he can 'redeem' himself is through dying by killing Palpatine).

I'm not sure what argument your making on if Anakin could've "talked" Tarkin into another way to get Leia to talk to betray the Rebels. I'm arguing that if he—or YOU—expected Leia's "forgiveness", then it implies there should've been some level where he could've done something different. I'm arguing he could've left the Empire years earlier if he'd grown a spine, or he could've Force choked Tarkin out right there and got him and Leia out of there somehow. Who's gonna stop him? No lowly soldier on board the Death Star could stand in his way. Palpatine would be miles away at that point.

He could've done something different. Fans just argue he was "helpless" in the sense that they don't want Anakin to be selfless to give anything up. The excuse that he was "stuck" and "had nothing left" is BS. Deep down, Anakin knows if he found Obi-Wan and repented that Obi-Wan would take him back. There's a whole arc about it in a comic when he's trying to bleed a Kyber Krystal. He just doesn't do it because he's too depressed and selfish to admit he screwed up his own life. He pretended for 20 years everyone betrayed him, when really it was the other way around, and that was too horrific to contemplate, so he pretended he was another person, when clearly he's still the same guy, only horrifically injured under the mask. He can only admit the truth after Luke offers him blind forgiveness.

It doesn't really matter that psychologists have "diagnosed" Anakin. He isn't a real person. He's a character that was written with a narrative purpose by GL. And GL was clear when he says the reasons Anakin does what he does is because he's greedy for power to not feel weak again and also because he's too afraid to let go. The writer of the character knows better actually. Isn't that what SW fans always say with GL?

Jedi are literally space Buddhists that GL describes as "empathetic space monks." Part of their culture is literally to be connected to all life around them. It's laughable to say they wouldn't understand a "simple person" in the galaxy. That's literally what they're taught to do in the Temple. Before the war, they were Advisors/ mediators.

Anakin had a fondness for Qui-Gon, but he did trust Obi-Wan. Maybe not enough to mention Padmé (he didn't trust ANYONE with that except apparently Rex, and l'm almost certain Rex found out on accident, because Anakin definitely doesn't care about Rex as much as he did Ahsoka), but he DID trust him. And he cared for Obi-Wan greatly. Just not more than his own wants and needs apparently. But that's true when it comes to Anakin choosing himself over all of his friends and family at the end of ROTS. The Jedi would've helped Anakin if he'd just ASKED without being so damn vague. Maybe they wouldn't have let him stay in the Order, but it's not like he'd be kicked out the door immediately. But Anakin wanted his cake and to eat it too, so he didn't tell him about his wife because he wanted to keep the power of being a Jedi. And guess what? The Jedi don't OWE one man the power to change their entire culture just for him.

There isn't anything wrong with having a set of rules for beliefs. Priests can't marry either. That doesn't make them “emotionless robots” that are “incapable of understanding human emotion” or understanding a struggling man's thoughts. As I said before, the Jedi cannot help Anakin if he doesn't ASK. You cannot condemn them in one breath for not helping him, while at the same time saying that it's fine Anakin didn't explain his problems with them, because they should've just been able to read his mind. It's hypocritical.

Obi-Wan had no other options but to follow Padmé to find Anakin. He NEEDED to find Anakin, because Anakin was fucking dangerous at that point in time, and had just helped genocide an entire culture. Not exactly father/husband material at that point. And even then, in the movies Obi-Wan doesn't reveal himself until it's clear Anakin isn't going to listen to Padmé. It's ludicrous to think if Padme kept arguing with Anakin that Anakin still wouldn't have strangled her in anger in that moment. Again, it appears somehow you're trying to put off this transgression he's committed on someone else again, and I cannot fathom why. It makes him far less interesting that way if he was just a "poor guy" who couldn't control himself.

What I find interesting is you can admit that Anakin doesn't have the information the audience does, which is why he thinks Palpatine is kind and is his friend, but you show no grace towards the Jedi, calling them "arrogant" for not realizing the Sith had slowly popped back up, as if they are somehow supposed to have the audience's information. The truth is that they don't.

Just like anyone, they know the politicians of the Republic are slowly being corrupt (just like MOST politicians in real life, and you don't see everyone condemning all US citizens because we don't go clean them out like assassins or something), but there isn't anything they can do about that unless you expect them to go in and wave their lightsabers around to threaten the politicians into submission. As if Palpatine wouldn't immediately twist that into his favor to say they were "trying to take over the Republic". (And oh wait—he did that in the movies! 🤷‍♀️ Funny how that works, huh?)

It doesn't matter if Anakin didn't "want" to kill kids/the Tuskens/betray Mace and his Jedi friends. What does that matter? What does it matter if he felt bad while doing it if he still DOES it? You wouldn't say a school shooter wasn't responsible for their actions just because they were sobbing the whole time they went around slaughtering everyone in the school. Anakin's responsible for his own actions, and just because he might feel "bad" doesn't let him off the hook. Even when he was masquerading as 'Vader.' Who cares if he was miserable 24/7? l’ll tell you his victims sure didn't when he decapitated them with his lightsaber or snapped their spines.

I'm not arguing about the people that forgave Anakin. I'm arguing over condemning people as "brats" that don't. (I personally think it's a copout to have Leia forgive him after reading some diary, so l'm glad at the least apparently new canon has her taking her entire life to get there). My point is there is nothing that makes Anakin's victims any less if they choose not to forgive him, because forgiveness is a GIFT. It isn't something you're owed. It's funny fans keep pretending he's owed that while condemning all of the Jedi as "arrogant", because I can't think of anything more arrogant than a man who was formerly one of the worst monsters in the galaxy thinking he's "owed" forgiveness. And just as I mentioned before, the Anakin after he came back to the Light wouldn't even agree with such a notion. He may ASK. But he wouldn't call Leia a "brat" for it. It's ridiculous to think that after the horror he'd personally committed to her.

I don't really care what your thoughts are on "Darth Mouse" as that's not what this conversation is about. GL describes Palpatine as the Devil, which is why Anakin can be turned back to the Light and Palpatine can't. But there is NO DOUBT that Anakin as 'Darth Vader' is seen as 'space Hitler' throughout internet culture (the Empire/the Sith is LITERALLY based off of Nazis). If you'd take a moment to google it you would see it's already a huge staple of internet culture. That doesn't make him emotionless or without goodness (he saved Luke, after all), but it IS still true. I don't see what's so hard about acknowledging his atrocities. He was a cruel and horrible monster for most of his life, and it only makes Luke's actions all the more miraculous when he somehow gets through to Anakin and makes him consider a heel face turn in the final hour.

Lol, honestly I also think you're a pretty strange person calling one of Anakin's torture victims a "brat" just because she didn't forgive him like dear saintly Luke. There is no shame in being kind like Luke (it helped him win after all), but there is NOTHING that makes Leia a bad person for not forgiving Anakin. I think you don't seem to contemplate just how BAD that is. Her FATHER tortured her for apparently HOURS. We have no idea just what he said and did to her during this time. He could've taunted her, for all we know. And I know, I know, you might say "He didn't know she was his daughter! 🤪🤪 " But that's not the POINT. The point is how he was cruel, and only seemed care when he realized she was his flesh and blood. Anakin's lucky Leia didn't spit on his grave. Because she WASN'T consumed by her anger to the point it was unhealthy. She just didn't forgive him and never viewed him as her father as long as she lived (because BAIL ORGANA was her father in all but blood). And that is within her rights. As I keep stating, Anakin is not OWED anything. His actions at the end of ROTJ are the LEAST he can do. He should be GRATEFUL to the opportunity Luke gave him and how Obi-Wan and Yoda were saintly enough to forgive him and help him become a Force ghost, because he quite frankly didn't deserve it. But salvation isn't always about what people deserve. Just like forgiveness, it's a gift. Anakin received a gift from Luke and Obi-Wan—but he is NOT owed it from Leia. And she isn't a "brat" for not giving it to him. It is important to stick to one's beliefs and principles. Leia stuck by hers. That takes courage and strength. She loved Luke but never agreed with him about Anakin.

And I also never called Anakin as 'Vader' a maniac. I called him basically a monster. Because he WAS. He helped kill thousands of people for Palpatine on the regular and continued to help genocide Jedi over the years, while ALSO still killing more kids over the years a handful of times too, even if he usually tried to avoid it (the Kenobi Show when he purposely snapped a kid's neck in front of his mother and dragged him through the street like garbage). Ironically, the more you learn and read about Anakin's atrocities, the more Luke's reaction becomes downright insane (while still saintly/miraculous), because NOBODY else (especially in real life!) would think someone like that had a heart deep down with a sliver of care left. That's what makes it miraculous Luke got through to him.

Lol, you cannot seriously be arguing that the maintenance workers on board the Death Star were "poor little guys." I don't know if you're aware of this, but even though there were probably volunteers, on the other hand, usually half the time in the military soldiers are ASSIGNED certain things like "mopping the floors" or "latrine duty" personally—so those people STILL were probably Empire officers. And even if they weren't, they still chose to be on the abomination known as the Death Star. Their sentence may be the lightest, but unless they were put there against their will they too would ALSO be charged. And also—with your argument—you're calling Luke's actions at the end of the Original Trilogy as a genocidal act or something, when really it was a necessary act to take out a planet destroying death machine. It's amazing how certain fans can try to twist things around to try and blame the heroes for something that is the villain's fault.

Here we go again with the excuses of "if only Mace wasn't mean to poor little Anakin" then Anakin wouldn't have had to murder everyone. Lol, is Anakin incapable of cognitive thinking? Because I promise you that if I was Ahsoka and heard that Anakin's reasoning for trying to kill me at one point in Rebels and betraying all of his friends is because a few people were "mean to him" I would just be pissed off at the gall of him to not take responsibility for his own actions. Even if a few people WERE mean to Anakin, that still doesn't give him the right to go on a murderous rampage. All his actions are still on him. That's like saying a school shooter is justified in his actions just because he was bullied. You calling Anakin a "Trojan horse" as if he planned any of that and wasn't just riding by the seat of his pants doesn't really make sense. Anakin didn't plan anything, and if you're arguing that BS theory that Anakin "balanced" the Force by genociding the Light Side to have it be even with the Dark Side (not true anyway since there were still more Light Siders than Dark Siders), then I am sad to say that you are objectively wrong. 🤷‍♀️

There is no way that "genocide is good, actually!" is the main theme GL had for a children's Trilogy. Anakin completed the prophecy when he finally got off his ass to kill Palpatine. He could've done that in Palpatine's office, or years down the line—either way, the outcome to complete the prophecy is the same: the eradication of the Sith. No more. No less.

Quite frankly, I think it's pretty gross to blame a culture for their own genocide, so the galactic community isn't doing itself any favors at that point anyway (including the SW community. It's always been a baffling fandom opinion to me). And despite what you and other fans may believe—the Jedi shouldn't have to CHANGE their entire culture/way of life for the sake of one man (Anakin) OR the galaxy's inhabitants who don't even TRY to understand them anyway (funny how Jedi are blamed for not understanding citizens, but what citizens try to understand them?).

They are not obligated to change their culture just for the right not to be murdered by a genocidal man on a temper tantrum.

Yeah, it's not surprising there were some among the population who "rejoiced" the fall of the Order. The war affected people's livelihoods and lives, and people get REAL greedy real fast when their day to day lives are affected by something. So yeah, it's no wonder they listened to Palpatine's propaganda to make the Jedi their scapegoat. Still pretty gross and disgusting, of course, but I can see how it came to be that way. Pretty ironic how people seemed to eventually miss the Jedi when they were gone, huh? It's not so fun dealing with an enemy (The Empire) when no space monk is standing protectively in front of you with a laser sword.

You DO know it's canon there were only 10,000 Jedi (not counting younglings and retired Masters) in a galaxy of TRILLIONS, right? It's illogical to expect them to be able to single handedly end slavery throughout the galaxy (especially in the Outer Rim where the Senate won't help them), or to expect them to be able to solve every damn problem in the universe like poverty (the lower levels of Coruscant). They helped people when they could. I don't know how, but you've seemed to have forgotten (just like most fans) that the Jedi ALWAYS tried to help. Even to the very end of their lives. It only makes it more gross to blame them for their own genocide. Lol, Luke barely knew shit about them except what he managed to scrounge up that hadn't been purged by the Empire (and a lot of that is from Legends authors, who didn't particularly like the Jedi anyway, so of course they'd write it like that and not as GL's vision of them being the heroes). The clones were treated terribly, and the Jedi did everything they could to make their lives easier (unless you'd prefer they sit on their asses out of the war to leave the clones under the command of people like Tarkin who didn't give a shit about them?), and it's illogical to blame them for the clones's plight. The SENATE are the corrupt ones and it's THEIR job to fix poverty and slavery and give the clones their rights. THEY are the actual villains of the prequels (besides the Sith), which is exactly what GL wanted to present to show the moral decay of democracy. And yet somehow people missed that and thought he was saying��"No, actually, it's the genocide victims who are wrong, guys!" when that couldn't be farther from accurate.

Dear LORD, here we go again with the excuses for Anakin's actions. Anakin "couldn't trust" Obi-Wan because of something kinda snippy/mean that Obi-Wan said when he was a TEENAGER?(The “pathetic life form/he’s dangerous line”, which he said when he was jealous/also—again—a teenager). Wow, way to hold a grudge. Lol. Doesn't that go against your whole argument about "forgiveness?" Didn't Obi-Wan's following actions towards Anakin then on in treating him like a brother show NOTHING about his care for him? Come on now. Let's be serious.

Why the hell WOULDN'T Obi-Wan go after Anakin? As stated beforehand, Anakin was DANGEROUS at that point, and needed to be put down. Anakin went against his fate to destroy the Sith, which put the prophecy on hold for a bit, so yeah, there was a "plan", which is why he lived, but that doesn't mean he wasn't dangerous and still didn't deserve to die at that point in time. He'd just killed kids like animals hours earlier. Again: not exactly husband/father material anymore.

Again, I feel like the implication here is that you're hinting that everyone misinterpreted the prophecy and that Anakin's fate was to bring "balance" by becoming a genocidal monster and "evening the score", and I am sad to say that you are objectively wrong. 🤷‍♀️ It's not accurate to state GL's original intent to a children's trilogy is that genocide to "even the score" was the correct answer. As stated again: Anakin completed the prophecy when he destroyed the Sith (ie; him and Palpatine). Full stop.

Hmmmm, you're doing a whole lot of speculation on how Leia "might" react if she was put in Anakin's situation, but not actually taking into account how everyone makes their own decisions and people can react differently to things at the end of the day. This just feels like another way you're trying to excuse Anakin's actions and condemn Leia for her bitterness towards Anakin just because: "Oh, if only that brat went what he went through! 🤪 " And such an argument—in the nicest way I can think possible—feels like the platitudes children tell themselves when angry at their parents. ALL of your and rabid Anakin fans's arguments are, because it all boils down to: "It wasn't HIS Fault! It was THIS person's! Because they were MEAN to him and he got BULLIED! And all his friends didn't understand him (even when it's obvious they reached out plenty of times and tried)!" It's just a very tired and frankly going in circles argument. You keep bringing up all these external factors as if the Jedi didn't try at all to offer Anakin coping mechanisms (Yoda literally offered them, and his advice—whether you or others want to admit it or not—makes sense. In war, you sometimes have to be prepared you might lose someone, and with the vague knowledge Anakin gave him, I'm pretty sure Yoda thought Anakin was talking about Obi-Wan. If Yoda knew it was about Padmé, no shit he'd probably have different advice). Anakin's life was not horrible at the Temple. He had a horrible childhood and that would fuck anyone's head up and leave a scar, but once at the Temple he was offered a whole range of different options to receive help. The only difference here is that you just don't AGREE with the Jedi's beliefs in how they go about helping people control their emotions so they don't lash out at people.

Maybe a few people (kids) at the Temple said a few things to Anakin that could be bullying (and I've only seen ONE comic related to that), but it's ridiculous to assume that the entire Jedi Order hated him. It's illogical to think that, and it's just like the childish notion fans have that Mace (who you call a "motherfucker" for... again, what? Treating Anakin like everyone else and not God's gift?) hated or was jealous of Anakin just because he didn't tell him "yes" all the time.

The point is, Anakin's life was fine at the Temple. Maybe he got a little isolated and lonely, but it's not like people didn't reach out. Anakin just had trouble reaching back. And all of those excuses don't let him off the hook for his genocidal actions, which you still seem to be twisting yourself into knots to try and do. THAT is childish. Not Leia judging Anakin for who he was when she had the misfortune of being tortured by him. You're plain lying to yourself if you think you wouldn't react just like Leia in real life. Most people are not gonna be wondering to themselves why the "poor little serial killer" did what he did to their family.

Just as stated before, Anakin honestly didn't deserve shit at the end of his life.

He'd betrayed everyone he'd ever known and thrown them all away (Rex, Ahsoka, Obi-Wan, Padmé, the Jedi/501st, R2, etc) like complete garbage. He helped genocide the Jedi—the very Order that took him in from slavery—and then spent those next 20 years hunting them down like animals, while also in his free time killing whoever Palpatine pointed him to like a lapdog just because he was depressed and pissed he'd screwed up his own life. He'd murdered thousands of kids at that point (literally monstrous and unforgivable for most people. Certainly me. Which only makes Luke's forgiveness more meaningful) and there is a comic where he hunted down a Jedi just for the sheer purpose of ripping his youngling out of the man's arms so he could let Palpatine turn the baby into an Inquisitor.

I am sure there are compilations on YouTube of all the people Anakin killed and the people he'd tortured or made jokes at while he smirked over their bodies. Come back and watch those and then tell me again he "deserved" to find peace. Lol, Anakin didn't deserve shit.

And I know that me saying that will probably make you think I hate his character. I don't. Anakin's character is very dear to me and I'm GLAD he found peace at the end of his life. I'm just under no delusions that he was "redeemed" in any sense of the word that wasn't in Luke's eyes alone or that Anakin actually "deserved" peace, when it should be completely obvious he deserved to be condemned to the farthest pits of Hell. As I keep repeating again and again: Anakin's 'redemption' and forgiveness are GIFTS. It's not something he is owed or something he even deserves. It's something he's given from the people around him who are quite frankly better people than he ever was in his entire life. Luke taught him how to be selfless at the end of his life. Because of his trauma as a slave, Anakin never wanted to do that beforehand from the fear of being weak again, no matter how many tried to help. But Luke did, and he succeeded with getting through to Anakin and making him finally get off his ass to make the right choice.

Again, The Force may have a "plan" but that doesn't mean people don't have free will. Otherwise, they'd all just be mindless puppets walking around spouting nonsense. That's just another copout to try and excuse Anakin's genocidal actions and say it wasn't his fault because it was his "fate". It wasn't. His fate was to destroy the Sith (and NOTHING else, despite what you apparently believe about a BS argument that I admit is common in fanon that Anakin "evening the playing field" was his destiny or something). He tripped and dragged his heels on that for twenty years before finally completing the prophecy in the final hour before his death. No more, no less.

It's childish to not take responsibility for your actions. It's why even though I love his character l'm not gonna treat Anakin like he was a "poor little guy" who didn't have a brain. He had options and a support system (Obi-Wan/Ahsoka/Padmé/Rex/R2/etc) he could've reached out to if he really wanted to. But he didn't because he just wanted to be told he was right. That's on him and no one else, as I keep saying over and over, despite how many excuses for him you try to bring up. I will repeat again: you give Anakin a lot of grace, but apparently none to Leia herself. Why is that? It feels pretty hypocritical. It also feels pretty hypocritical to judge and blame the Jedi in one breath saying they "lost their way (incorrect)", while in another breath embracing their very own beliefs on love and forgiveness. So, which is it? Do you think the Jedi had a wisdom and empathy for forgiveness, or do you think they "lost their way?" You can't have both and pick and choose based off how you want to excuse and justify Anakin's behavior.

Ahhhh, and THERE it is. See, I knew this gross argument (that I admit is a common fandom opinion) was hiding in there somewhere! I'm honestly not going to give this opinion much time, because at the end of the day you and everyone else who believe it are objectively wrong. 🤷‍♀️ You wanna know how I know that? Because it's genocide apologia. And at the end of the day, when you say the whole purpose GL made for Anakin's story and the theme of SW is that "genocide is good actually!", all I have to do to refute that is to remind you and others that this is a CHILDREN'S trilogy and from the words of GL himself; SW's main theme is about hope.

So because of that, this gross "theory" is shown for what it is: immoral, gross and just plain wrong genocide apologia. 🤷‍♀️ It's also just wrong in general, because Anakin killed all the Sith at the end of the Original Trilogy, and it's now canon more than two Light Siders were still alive at the time, so that would be "uneven scales" which goes against this immoral genocide apologia theory to begin with.

Ahhh, would you look at that! You've had the gall to bring up another gross argument similar to your earlier one (which is a common fandom one, I'll admit) that Anakin showed "mercy" to the younglings when killing them, when it's obvious that's incorrect and he didn't show them anything but cruelty. And now you're giving this type of similar gross argument that genocide survivors were "freed" from the "slavery" of their own culture! I gotta hand it to you, it's a common SW fan belief, but every time I hear it, I still get amazed at the gall of someone who truly believes this is accurate each and every time. Because it's obvious you don't agree with their culture (not saying I'd be a good Jedi either, but the point remains), which is why you think them being "freed" from their culture is better for them so the genocide survivors can make "real families" because you don't view the Jedi as family! Because you only believe in the basic family dynamic. So yeah, this opinion is also immoral and wrong obviously, because it tries to twist Anakin's and the Empire's genocidal actions as "benevolent" and "cleansing the Order for something new." Which is, again, genocide apologia, which proves you are wrong, because it's illogical that genocide apologia would be the theme of a children's trilogy about hope.

A lot of these things you bring up about Anakin and Palagueis are things l'm not even sure are actually canon anymore or if they're from Legends. Even if they are canon, these again are not excuses for his actions just because Anakin may have had a penchant for darkness. Even if he did, it's still his responsibility to learn how to control it and not hurt people. Many Jedi need to be guided on the right path to not follow evil, which is what the Jedi already did every day. With all of the thousands of Jedi trained and only a handful turning to the Dark Side, that seems like a pretty good record. The Jedi didn't "lose their way." This is a tired and BS argument that I admit Filoni has brewed the more GL gave him more leeway with SW, because Filoni doesn't view the Jedi as heroes in the right like GL did. There is nothing to show they lost their way just because they joined the war, because they literally were given that choice or sitting on their asses to watch the galaxy burn, and you bet your ass if they did that then Palpatine would spin it around to the public: "Look at how they sit in their ivory towers and watch you suffer under the Separatists's hands! 🤪🤪” So there is literally no way they can win here. If you're talking about how some of their methods got dirty (trying to mind trick the bounty hunter), firstly: they were literally trying to save their own children from being tortured/experimented on/enslaved, which I'm pretty sure gives them some slack (unless you're only willing to give that to Anakin?). Secondly, Anakin also got his hands dirty plenty of times in the war, and is conveniently not criticized by the fandom as much as the Jedi are. Ironic, huh?

Anakin could've told Obi-Wan anything and Obi-Wan would've helped him. Anakin knew that. Anakin just didn't want to risk losing his Jedi authority in the Order, because he didn't want to have to choose between a life with Padmé and being a powerful Jedi. If he cared about Padme completely selflessly, why didn't he just admit he was married and ask the Jedi to help Padmé and make sure she stayed alive through their Jedi healers? That was an option.

He literally risked Padme's life because he keeps sitting on the fence to try and have both. Because despite what you and some of his fans believe—Anakin isn't OWED both. He doesn't deserve everything in the world just because he is the oh so mighty "Chosen One/Hero With No Fear". A culture shouldn't have to change their entire way of life just for one man to continue being married and to have his cake and eat it too by staying in the Order. Even in real life, priests still aren't allowed to practice and be married. That doesn't mean they're being "repressed" or that they're under some type of horrible "slavery" to suppress their emotions. It's just the rules of that culture. If Anakin didn't like the rules of the Jedi, he should've just left after getting their help to keep Padmé and his kids safe. But he didn't because he wanted to keep both. That’s on him. Not his victims.

I mean, yeah, no duh the Jedi Order would’ve had some problems after killing Palpatine and having to prove they he was a Sith that acted on both sides of the war. Palpatine did that really well, but it’s a bit illogical to assume they wouldn’t eventually find evidence in his office somewhere or on his data files. He did the things he did by planning his schemes some type of way. And yeah, for some insane reason being a Sith Lord “wasn’t illegal”, but being controlling of both sides of the war IS, which they could’ve proved after a while. So, if you are trying to argue that Anakin’s actions were for the “better” because it would’ve been too “hard” for the Jedi otherwise—you are still objectively wrong this way. 🤷‍♀️ It’s also just another way to try and excuse Anakin by pretending his actions that day on the final day of freedom of democracy didn’t matter, when it’s obvious that they very clearly did. If Anakin hadn’t cut off Mace’s hand, the war would’ve been won. Therefore, everything that goes bad in the galaxy is legit Anakin’s fault. 🤷‍♀️ Of course Palpatine has the highest blame because he’s the mastermind, but betrayers/backstabbing is always a worse breed of crime, because it always comes from a friend, which is what Anakin was to the Jedi/Obi-Wan/Ahsoka/Rex/Padmé/501st. He legit ruins all of his friends’s lives with that one swing to cut off Mace’s hand. Trying to paint it as anything else is simply incorrect, and takes away from his ‘redemption’ at the end of the Original Trilogy by trying to pretend he’s a “poor little guy” who had no choice.

Anakin could’ve “defeated” Palpatine multiple ways. Just as I mentioned before, just because The Force had a “plan” doesn’t mean that everyone was puppets walking around on a string, because then free will wouldn’t exist. Anakin could’ve helped defeat Palpatine in his office that day in Revenge of The Sith by either taking the swing himself or either standing back and just letting Mace finish the job. He’s still The Chosen One that way, because his choice is still literally the defining action that saves democracy that way. He also could defeat him the way he does in the Original Trilogy, which is taking him by surprise to save Luke by throwing him down the reactor shaft to kill Palpatine. Either way gets the job done. He doesn’t need to physically fight Palpatine to get it done himself. He’s just the catalyst for what happens to the galaxy because of HIS choices alone, which proves how he has agency and understood why all his actions were wrong and just didn’t care. He didn’t need Luke for that in Palpatine’s office. All he had to do was grow a spine and let Mace take the final swing. He failed to do that and doomed the galaxy for twenty years because of it. 🤷‍♀️

Ahhh, there you go again with the gall to pretend that what Anakin did was “mercy” for the younglings just because the imperials would’ve done horrible things to them too! Gotta hand it to you, one has to have a lot of nerve to believe such an argument such as this (which I acknowledge is a common opinion among rabid Anakin fans), but it’s still gross and hilariously wrong every time I hear it repeated. So, just as I stated to you before: you and anyone else who has this opinion is WRONG, because obviously Anakin murdering little kids like animals is not a mercy. Anyone with any type of heart and soul should be able to realize that. What Anakin did is not and will never be a “mercy”. It was a cruel and dehumanizing act towards kids who were begging for his help. What would ACTUALLY have been mercy is what I stated before: Anakin snapping out of it to save the kids and lead them out of the Temple to save their lives. THAT is mercy. The only reason you continue to spout this BS argument that is common among rabid Anakin fans is to try and twist yourself into knots to deny Anakin agency and pretend he had “no choice” but to kill the kids for “mercy”, when it’s clear that this opinion of yours and anyone else who believes it is gross, immoral, and just plain wrong. 🤷‍♀️ It’s as simple as that.

Anakin WAS taught to understand, accept and manage his emotions correctly. That’s LITERALLY what “control” means: MANAGING your emotions so you don’t lash out at people in your anger, which is what the Jedi always warned their members against doing. The only difference here is that you just don’t agree with their beliefs, and are inadvertently portraying them as a culture who “suppresses” their emotions, when from the movies and TCW show it’s obvious that you and anyone who has this opinion is wrong. 🤷‍♀️ There are literally scenes that show it’s about being MINDFUL of your emotions so you don’t let them control you. Not to pretend they don’t exist. Anakin had all of these Jedi teachings available to him. The only difference is that he thought he was above the rules and that they didn’t apply to him. All of which eventually bit him in the ass, because he refused to listen to anyone and be told “no” without getting angry.

Qui-Gon was kind to Anakin, and Anakin had a fondness for him, but it is NOT canon that if Qui-Gon lived Anakin wouldn’t have fallen. That’s just a fanon theory that fans pretend is canon. You know how I know this? Because if you look it up, George Lucas straight up SAYS in interviews that Qui-Gon living wouldn’t have changed anything for Anakin not falling to the Dark Side. The “Duel of the Fates” is just what the song writer titled the song as a metaphor for the fight between light and darkness, but that doesn’t mean that because Qui-Gon died it was impossible for Anakin to grow a brain and a conscience and make choices of his own. GL literally knows better, because he’s the writer, which is what SW fans always say, right? Because anyone that believes that Qui-Gon dying “sealed Anakin’s fate” is simply using it as another copout/excuse for Anakin’s actions to pretend like all of his choices weren’t his own fault. Obi-Wan was a fine teacher for Anakin, and just because he wasn’t perfect didn’t mean he “failed” him. The truth is that Obi-Wan did everything he could, but Anakin refused to accept Obi-Wan’s help half the time. That’s on him and nobody else. He failed Obi-Wan. Not the other way around. Obi-Wan only thinks he “failed” Anakin out of misplaced guilt because he’s a better person than Anakin could ever hope to be who actually felt guilt for his actions, when Anakin in turn during that time at least felt nothing but entitlement and anger towards friends who wouldn’t join him on the Dark Side.

Dooku also doesn’t have any room to talk. He might’ve noticed corruption in the Senate, but the second Dooku joined the Sith and the Separatists and started helping enslave planets and killing people, he lost all credibility and became a big old hypocrite, just like Anakin became after ROTS.

So far, every single opinion you have given is just one excuse after another for Anakin’s actions to try and put the blame on someone else (usually the victims of his genocidal atrocities). And all of them are incorrect and immoral and wrong. 🤷‍♀️ Because half of it is genocide apologia or trying to twist Anakin’s actions from killing the younglings as “benevolent mercy”, when that is obviously WRONG and the biggest copout I have ever heard in my life. You also try to excuse Dooku’s actions, which is also wrong, because Dooku is a literal war criminal at the end of ROTS, so all of his opinions mean squat at that point, because he’d become the very thing he’d hated at that point, just like Anakin would eventually come to be from his own shitty choices. Therefore, every single thing you have brought up is not “facts.” It is simply an opinion that has become huge in fandom spaces because people like Anakin’s character and are biased against him and want to pretend he was a “poor little guy” who couldn’t make decisions, when it is clear there were a million other decisions he could’ve made.

I will then bring this around back to my original point: Leia Organa is not a “brat” for choosing not to forgive someone who was once one of the biggest monsters in the galaxy who TORTURED her (her own flesh and blood FATHER) just because Anakin might’ve had a hard childhood or a few people “being mean to him.” She doesn’t owe him anything, because specifically everything that had gone wrong in the galaxy up to that point was ANAKIN’S fault, and it is the LEAST he can do to kill Palpatine and fix it, so she doesn’t owe him anything for him killing the Emperor either. It’s great Luke found it in his heart to forgive Anakin, but it will NEVER be acceptable to call Leia a “bad person” for not forgiving Anakin, who is canonically the space Hitler (proven) of the Star Wars galaxy. She doesn’t owe him shit, and again: Anakin is lucky she didn’t spit on his grave.

Again: this doesn’t mean I hate Anakin’s character. But unlike you, when I like a character, I don’t need to excuse their every action to pretend they are “poor little guys.” Anakin was a horrible monster for most of his life, but I’m still GLAD he found salvation and peace in the afterlife. But he did NOT deserve it. He deserved to be condemned to the farthest pits of Hell, and I am under no delusions about that. He’s lucky the people around him (Luke, Yoda, Obi-Wan and Ahsoka) are far better people than he ever was while he was alive and were able to find it in their hearts to offer him forgiveness, because he never showed them that same kindness or grace, and obviously didn’t deserve their love or loyalty. It makes it all the more saintly that they gave it to him.

​You’re correct that I said earlier I didn’t want to continue this conversation because I feel like we’re going in circles. But if you’ll recall, I also stated if you kept messaging me then I would respond to the best of my abilities.

My final message to you on my points is the one I left before and also this following one, and then I will wish you farewell, considering we’re obviously never going to agree. Maybe someday someone will come across this thread and read my thoughts and see the logic in not believing genocide apologia is the theme of a CHILDREN’S series about hope. Either way, the conversation is basically finished. I’m not going to repeat everything I have said that discredits your points again, as nothing I’ve said has gotten through to you apparently. The reason in my last message I brought my point back around to Leia not being what you call a “brat” is because that was the original reason I replied to you to begin with. The other stuff in this final comment you send about Leia “owing” Anakin for her birth, which is why she “owes” him forgiveness is also wrong as well for all of the reasons I stated earlier. The parent argument is just another excuse because Anakin was a deadbeat dad. Lots of kids write off their terrible parents every day.

Every other thing you bring up about the Jedi and Mace and the Council has already been refuted by my points earlier to show them as incorrect, even if you don’t agree. The final thing is of course you repeating Anakin has no agency and shouldn’t be blamed because the Force had a “plan”, but again, I’ve already proven in my earlier messages that type of immoral and genocide apologia argument about it being his “destiny” to genocide the Light Side is wrong, because—again—Star Wars is a CHILDREN’S series at the end of the day, and it is completely illogical and absurd that “genocide is good, actually!” is the main theme of a CHILDREN’S trilogy about hope.

I will respond to you no further now. I am satisfied with the points I have made debunking your claims, and will definitely come back to this as a reference if I need to debate someone in the future. I will only leave you with a vague thanks that things managed to stay mostly civil besides us calling each other “strange”. But then again, I know we were both probably getting annoyed. Still, it’s a rare thing to have a mostly polite debate on the internet, so I’ll give credit where credit’s due. 👍 Goodbye, and hope your day is well.

-

As you can see, there’s a lot of genocide apologia in this guy’s arguments (literally disgusting), and there were times I got a little snippy (it gets frustrating defending genocide survivors over and over), but for the most part, I tried to be polite, because I wanted all my points to remain strong. If you are willing to listen to my perspective, I think you can admit some of his arguments echo your own, even if you’re obviously not as blunt and frankly gross about it as him.

Take the show The Acolyte, and how it’s supporters argue that it’s only “critiquing” the Jedi and showing them as “flawed”, which is what you wanted to get at when you sent this ask, no? To “make sure that in discussing the Jedi we remember the good and bad.” Well, my response is… why is that needed? You’ve seen all my points and examples about how being anti Jedi is the larger fandom opinion and how Order 66 is quietly thought to be partly “their fault”, which is literally one of the grossest opinions to have and I’ll never sugarcoat that. So, why is it NEEDED to point out their “flaws” with every post on how they didn’t deserve their genocide? Why does that matter? Why can’t it just be agreement: the Jedi didn’t deserve to be slaughtered like animals? Why is it “oh, but we must remember that they were flawedddd and complacenttttt. 😔💔 After all, if only they just hadn’t been mean to poor Anakinnnn. Then he wouldn’t have been ‘forced’ to help murder them all. 😔💔” Like… do you not HEAR how condescending that sounds? 😭🤷‍♀️🤦‍♀️

Why do the Jedi have to be the “perfect victims” for fans, otherwise they either “deserved what they got” or were “arrogant” and “brought it on themselves?” Why aren’t the MURDERERS/BETRAYERS blamed for the collapse of a galaxy (Anakin and Palpatine), when THEY were the ones responsible and who pulled the trigger? The point is that it’s frankly just weird how much certain fans bring up that “oh, don’t forget they were flawedddd! 🤪🤪🤪” on a post that is mourning the loss of their culture. I promise you that your “special little blorbos” Kanan and Ahsoka (the REAL her that hasn’t become Filoni’s mouthpiece) would probably not enjoy the way you describe them as “oh, but YOU’RE one of the good ones!” And I say that with all the politeness I can manage.

Funnily enough, the writer of The Acolyte, LH, kind of echoes your sentiments, which just aren’t as “benevolent” as you may genuinely believe. In her show, there’s no DEPTH or honestly real THEMES of SW put into the show. It’s all flipped around to the Dark Side being “liberating”, which is so far from true it’s literally laughable. 😭😒 And I’m getting ticked off that when genuine criticism from pro jedi fans come up, somebody just HAS to say—“This show is just portraying the Jedi as not perfect! 😌” 😬😤🫠 And I swear I’m gonna lose it one day, because it portrays the Jedi as more than imperfect. It portrays them as emotionally repressed, barely competent “space cops”. 🙄 (Fucking HATE that term antis use for them so much, because it’s what they argue about saying the Jedi ‘deserved’ their genocide because they’re an ‘institution’ and not a “real” family. 😬😬🤬🤬 Ohhhh, I’m gonna go off on someone one day. Lol.) And these are just my frustrations. It’s not personally directed at you at the moment, anon. It’s just me kind of venting all my thoughts on this post.

I even had a fairly decent comment on my tumblr post about my critique of The Acolyte from a fan trying to save it, and they basically said the same thing and that it’s from the Sith perspective so it’s skewed. But it’s not. 😭😭 Because the showrunner’s views literally mirror the villain’s and then they become her mouthpieces. The show is completely anti Jedi while trying to pretend in a condescending way that it’s only Jedi critical in a way like—“Ah, those poor little culty Jedi. 😔😔💔 Some had good hearts… but their culture doomed them to be wiped out… 😔💔” 😒🙄😤🤬

I just… fucking HATE that show. 😭 SO much. And I know certain fans loved it, so I apologize if people enjoyed at least certain parts, but I’ve read a tumblr post that broke down the show really well and how hollow it is. The characters barely have time to interact and get to know one another before they’re all killed off (Yord and Jecki and Sol, who were fan favorites), until only Osha and Quimir remain—because at the end of the day, THAT’S what this whole stupid show was about. 😭🤦‍♀️ It was about a Reylo fanfic writer getting to play in her sandbox.

Anyway, my point is I don’t think you’re “anti Jedi”, anon. I think you’re “Jedi critical”, yes. But not in the benevolent way you believe. I think you are unknowingly being benevolently condescending in the way The Acolyte tries to be by saying, “Ooohhh, those poor, culty Jedi. 💔😔😔😔 If only they weren’t so emotionally repressed like robots (dehumanization)… maybe then they could’ve changed their culture so they didn’t have to be ‘cleansed’ for a ‘better galaxy’. 😔💔💔” It’s just… stuff like that. 😭🤷‍♀️🤦‍♀️ Which is… SO exhausting for us pro Jedi fans to hear over and over and over like it’s a valid take, when it’s just really not. But I wanted to explain my thoughts in a way I hope was mostly polite. I probably sound a little bit snippy, but it’s just because I’m frustrated at having to defend genocide victims again. That’s all.

I guess I would just… encourage you to rethink your thoughts? Because when you take into account what the Sith/Empire represent (Nazis) and then what the Jedi genocide is a metaphor of… your ‘argument’ looks less and less cute. 🤷‍♀️😭 I’m just saying. Some may not like me comparing it to real life, but there are plenty of Asian fans/aroace fans/Jewish fans that heavily relate to the Jedi for this very reason, and I refuse to allow their opinions to be silenced, because fiction is for everyone, and SW has ALWAYS been political, which means it’s literally MADE to be compared to real life.

Anyway, I hope this long meta post maybe changed some minds, if not your own. I’m gonna leave links to other big pro Jedi blogs that have better and more organized meta posts than me about this stuff, where they go in depth explaining how the Jedi are the good guys and how what happened in the Prequels was never about “the genocide victims are in the wrong, actually!” and was more about the SENATE becoming corrupt and rotting democracy from the inside out, which made it so easy for Palpatine to slither into power. 10,000 Jedi aren’t gonna easily change that. But the politicians CAN. They were just too selfish to do so. The Senate/Sith are the real villains of the Prequel trilogy. Not the Jedi (literal genocide victims). Anything less than viewing it like this is just… wrong. 😭🤷‍♀️

Here are the big Pro Jedi meta blogs I talked about:

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[geekgirles]

I'm actually quite proud of Armand right now. Openly admitting to Amalia the reason their relationship was always strained was because he'd always been jealous of her and her relationship with their father is such a great character moment for him.

One thing season 4 is definitely delivering is some much needed depth and exploration of the Sadida Royal family. And I find myself fascinated (not only because Amalia is my favourite character and I have a soft spot for her people).

Personally, Armand is a character I have a lot of trouble having a clear stance on. I don't hate him, and it's true his motives become clear and even understandable once you give them some thought, it's just that Ankama does a wonderful job at making him both outwardly dislikable given his abrasive personality and some of his most questionable actions.

For example, season 3 Armand and season 4 Armand are almost like night and day. Maybe it is indeed that his new role as king has forced him to be more responsible and emotionally mature, but the vibes between L'assamblée and Falling Down are completely different.

In season 3 he just oozed contempt for his sister, and his actions towards her reeked of ulterior motives. The fact that Aurora has been described as manipulative (even her hairstyle is meant to hint at her true nature) and was purposely placed in between the two siblings as a visual nod to how she's keeping them apart doesn't help matters.

Which is another factor to take into account: Aurora's character and the role she plays in the siblings' deteriorating bond.

Even if so far she seems to genuinely love Armand, I really can't bring myself to trust Aurora. Not only because of all the behind-the-scenes facts I already mentioned, but because her actions are just sketchy and clearly veered to the betterment of the Osamodas rather than the Sadida.

First of all, her contempt for Amalia is genuine and she legitimately seems to be planning to send her away to keep her from interfering with her plans. After all, this is literally what she had to say about her sister-in-law:

"Ne vous en faîtes pas mon prince, nous finirons bien par redresser cette mauvaise herbe."

Translation: "Don't worry, my prince, we'll get this weed straightened out in the end."

(I haven't watched the English dub, so my apologies if the translation doesn't match the official version).

There's also the fact that, despite being the new Sadida Queen, her intentions in season 3 clearly laid in the benefit of her own kingdom, the Osamodas. Such is reflected in her choice of suitors for Amalia:

She intended for Amalia to marry Ashdur, her own cousin, thus, strengthening the Osamodas' hold over Sadida politics. In fact, it becomes quite clear Aurora's choice in suitors, only supported by Amalia implying back then her sister-in-law had already tried the same thing with her brothers, was much less about the future of the Sadida Kingdom and more about the Osamodas' sake.

After all, while arranged marriages between royal families isn't anything new, usually the sensible and even most strategic thing to do is for rulers to"spread" their children and marry them into different families around the world. That is exactly what Ferdinand of Aragon and Isabela of Castile did with their own children, they married them off to the royal families of England, Portugal, and Austria.

With that in mind, having both Sheran Sharm children marry Osamodas royalty just seems dumb, doesn't it? It all comes to show Aurora is more concerned over solidifying her power over the Sadida Kingdom than its actual well-being.

Which is why I'm still going to keep my guard up regarding her character until the season ends. After all, we still have 9 more episodes where everything can go up in flames.

But going back to Armand, even though he is in love with his wife, his treatment of Amalia in L'assamblée is leagues better than it was in season 3. Unlike most of his appearances and his interactions with his sister, where he kept treating her like a child who didn't know any better (what she just so happened to accuse him of when presented with Ashtur, as a matter of fact), here not only does he finally open up to his sister about his insecurities and his reasoning for his behaviour towards her, but he offers her support in the wake of their father's passing and even invites her to attend the assembly with him.

He is entrusting her with responsibilities befitting a queen, not a child.

Their relationship is finally healing.

As I said earlier, despite the undeniable depth behind his character, it's difficult to really side with Armand in plenty of occasions. Not only because of his difficult personality and flaws, but because it is so much easier to sympathise with Amalia.

And I'm not talking exclusively about the fact that, as one of the main characters, we've been by her side throughout everything, witnessing her true selfless, responsible, and brave self, but the fact that her position within her own family certainly tugs at our heartstrings.

Amalia is the youngest sibling, the princess. For all the sheltering and privileges that can get her, it also became her gilded cage. And for the most part, not even her family was a safe haven.

Queen Sheran Sharm died when Amalia was probably still a kid, whereas Armand was most likely already a teenager. As King Oakheart revealed back when he explained to Amalia it had been Armand who insisted they let her go, the queen's death shook their entire family, making the king and prince unintentionally turn their backs on Amalia during a time she needed as much affection as possible. And so, her royal duties became stifling, her royal upbringing unbearable. Thus is the reason for her wanderlust.

And then we have Armand's reason for not always being fair to her: jealousy. He resented her for being Oakheart's favourite, despite constantly going off to adventures while he remained in the kingdom by his side. Now, as I said, this was a great character moment for Armand, one that also belies his character development. However, it doesn't change the fact that, while easier to relate and sympathise with him, we still sympathise with Amalia more or have been doing so for far longer because we knew the effect this had had on her.

We all have been someone's scapegoat to their frustrations with a third person, we have all been treated unfairly by someone who, for whatever reason, couldn't solve their own issues with the person they had problems with in the first place and took it out on us. This is the crux of Armand and Amalia's strained relationship: for years, Armand took his frustrations and insecurities out on Amalia instead of having an honest conversation with their father.

That's why it's easier to sympathise with Amalia, because we know that, deep down, for all her flaws, she was never at fault for how their relationship turned out. Because we can understand her frustration and pain when, even with their dying father, Armand still chose to listen to his wife over her and try to marry her off instead of being there for each other when they both needed most. As Amalia called him out for before leaving with Yugo, he still chose politics over family. Everything involving Armand and Aurora is about politics.

But now that they are at least beginning to rebuild their relationship, I sincerely hope things get better for them. Unless their original intentions back in 2017 have changed, I seriously fear Ankama will still use Aurora to complicate things further between these two.

Please, Ankama, I'm literally begging you. They're all the family they each have left, don't let their relationship be ruined forever.

[canonicallyobserving911]

Buddie: Buck’s “In Another Life” journey continues into Season 8.

Buck’s and Eddie’s journeys are the MAIN FOCUS and Buddie is the ‘SHIP’ TM (showrunner) is highlighting and is primarily concerned with since the other ships, Bathena, Henren and Madney are already CANON.  Based on the way things happened in 8x5, it appears he’s reverting back to the original reason why he included Tommy in the first place and it’s evident in the way the character is being portrayed!  Instead of being Buck’s boyfriend, he was shown to GUIDE/ADVISE him in a way that would lead Buck to Eddie.  Furthermore, Buck and Tommy are NOT boyfriends!  It was illustrated numerous times in 8x5 via the absence of any displays of affection between them.  There was no kissing, no longing gazes that illustrated how much they like each other and there wasn't any casual intimacy of any kind included in the episode and that was ON PURPOSE.

This is a LONG POST because there’s a lot about Buck’s, Eddie’s and Tommy’s scenes in seasons 7 and 8 to unpack.  It’s imperative to note a lot of things changed after 7x4 aired and I’ll get into the possible reasons why below but it’s important to specify some details before I get into the analysis regarding the way it appears the showrunner wanted Tommy’s role to be handled in that initial episode.  When things went sideways and some fans turned into BT and LFJr. STANS, they started walking back the things that happened after 7x4 to rectify them and in season 8 they’ve included callbacks, foreshadowing and metaphors that specifically lead back to Buck and Eddie.

Before I delve into this, please note these are my interpretations and observations and everyone may not agree with them especially since people interpret media differently. I'm basing my speculation off the entirety of Buck's and Eddie’s 7 year relationship which includes a lot of depth. If someone doesn't agree, that's perfectly ok because differences of opinion can co-exist. DO NOT REBLOG THIS AND ADD AN OPPOSING OPINION BECASUSE IF ANYONE DOES THEY’LL GET BLOCKED.  EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN BLOG TO POST ON SO PLEASE KEEP THAT IN MIND.

I ONLY SHIP BUDDIE!  I ALWAYS HAVE AND I ALWAYS WILL.

Now back to the regularly scheduled program...

Analysis of episode 8x5 is below the cut.

Before I begin, there are a few points I need to highlight.

I haven’t watched any episodes in season 8 live because I need to be able to fast forward through scenes I don’t want to see.  Therefore, once I finally watched 8x5, I was able to rewind certain scenes to see what the show was trying to relay to the audience.

While watching the episode, I HAD TO REMOVE MY BUDDIE SHIPPER GOGGLES AND PUT ON MY GENERAL AUDIENCE LENSES.  Also, I asked myself questions that I believe TM considers when he’s originating his ideas for each episode.  I did this because numerous times he’s explained how his focus for episodes is based on the network’s needs and the things he believes the GA should see.

1. What information does 9-1-1 want the GA to gather from the episode? 2. Which main characters’ story/stories is/are being told? 3. What should the GA interpret from the included scenes? 4. What is Tommy’s purpose? 5. Why was Eddie included in several of Buck’s and Tommy’s scenes? 6. Why are Buck and Tommy acting differently with regards to displays of affection?

Full Disclosure: I DON’T LIKE TOMMY KINARD!  My dislike for him has nothing to do with Buddie but it has everything to do with the way his character was originally introduced in season 2 as a racist and a bigot!  I’ve posted about it numerous times and I still don’t like him (I NEVER WILL) but in order to provide a balanced and fair assessment, I had to review the character from the same perspective as any other person in the GA.  I’m not excusing his past behaviors because I’ll never forget them and I’ve already posted about the reason why I think Gerrard’s and Tommy’s problematic pasts were pushed under the rug never to be discussed again (linked here).

Based on the way things played out after 7x4 aired, it appears the “Network” stepped in (just like they did with the airplane disaster) and if they did it after that episode, then it could be the reason why Buck’s storyline and arc for season 7 went in a different direction than the showrunner intended.

Since TM (showrunner) appears to be fascinated with old movies, he’s continued to incorporate them into 9-1-1 scripts, i.e., “Earthquake” 1974 (season 2 opener); “The Poseidon Adventure” 1972 (season 7 opener); “Vertigo” 1958 (episodes 7x7 and 7x9) and the list goes on with “Speed”, “Tsunami”, “Rear Window” and others.  Additionally, the movie “It’s a Wonderful Life” was used as a point of reference for 6x11 “In Another Life” and based on the way things have been handled over the past two seasons, it’s possible it might still be in play.  Before 7x10 aired, I posted “My Buddie Crack Theory” (linked here) and it includes a lot of details about why I believe Buck could have still been in a coma during season 7.  I don’t know if he is now but his actions show that he’s still trying to figure things out and now I’m thinking he may have some form of retrograde amnesia because of the way his interactions with Tommy were handled in 8x5 since he can’t remember or understand the nature of his relationship with Eddie.

Let’s get started!

Overall, my perspective after watching 8x5 is that Tommy was NEVER meant to be Buck’s boyfriend and 9-1-1 is course correcting in season 8 by putting him in the role they originally intended during season 7.  All the scenes he had with Buck and Eddie and the ones he had alone with Buck portrayed him as a HELPFUL friend or a supportive guide but after 7x4 something happened and I have my suspicions it was related to network interference.  Basically, the writers gave him a personality transplant and put him in the position of a guide or an advisor so he can be there for Buck to help him realize who’s attention he was after in 7x4.  IIRC, since he was reintroduced, Tommy has never considered Buck to be his boyfriend and in fact, in season 7, he continuously told him that he didn’t think Buck was ready for a relationship.  Additionally, after Tommy showed up unannounced at the loft, he told Buck that he could have more than one friend.  Therefore, Buck is being shown to do what he’s done in the past which is cling to someone even though they aren’t looking for anything serious and he’s the one pursuing Tommy but reminder, the story is being told from Buck’s unreliable perspective.

The character’s point of view is important because TM said in a season 7 interview that Buck’s not really seeing things the way they actually are (paraphrasing).  He was trying to get Eddie’s attention but he got confused and projected them onto Tommy.  That projection of his misplaced feelings was supposed to be temporary but I’ll get into that later.

“Evan” vs. “Buck”

IMO, Tommy calls Buck “Evan” for two reasons.  First, Buck listens when people call him by his legal name and in CANON there have only been a handful of people to do it.  His parents do it consistently even though he’s asked them to call him Buck (in 7x6, Phillip called him Evan again when he called him before the wedding), Maddie also calls him by his legal name but she uses it interchangeably.  Bobby called him Evan once and it happened on the day Buck arrived at the 118 and Dr. Copeland calls him Evan.  Once or twice Ali called him that and since I rarely listened to anything Taylor said, I can’t recall if she did.  Finally, Eddie called him Evan once in CANON and that was during the will reveal.  Therefore, it leads me to my second point of reference, the will reveal.  I think Tommy calls him Evan to remind Buck about that important encounter that happened the day Eddie was being discharged from the hospital.  It was a pivotal moment in their relationship because it’s when Eddie gave Buck his heart for the rest of his life.  Make no mistake, Chris is Eddie’s heart so him updating his will and naming Buck to be Chris’ legal guardian is a huge deal for both Eddie and Buck.

Here's another point I want to make about Buck’s death and I’ll start with his comment in 7x4 to Tommy because it’s where all of this begins.  While they were at Air Operations, Buck said, “I guess that night was the most fun I’ve had since being struck by lightning” and Tommy replied, “You need to raise your bar, kid!”   Then Buck responded, “Not that being struck by lightning was fun, just uh… using it as a point of reference.”  Every word in the script, every piece of clothing the actors wear and every item on set has meaning, therefore Buck referencing the lightning strike is important and it’s his comment that kickstarted all of this.

Their conversation and everything that followed it appears to CLEARLY illustrate the way TM wanted Tommy’s character to be perceived and that’s as a GUIDE/ADVISOR person for Buck the same way Clarence was the AS2 for George in “It’s a Wonderful Life.” Several of the scenes are similar to those in the movie and I’ve compared them below.

Why is this relevant?  Because in a post 7x4 interview, OS explained it each time a journalist or podcaster asked him about Buck and Tommy’s relationship.  He said (paraphrasing) the character of Tommy was serving a purpose because he was there to help Buck navigate that time in his life and once it was over, he hoped Buck and Tommy could remain friends.  He said it repeatedly but then someone (perhaps network interference) had the idea to put Buck in a relationship with him so that they could maintain the new viewers who started watching just because of the kiss.  Instead of the focus remaining on Buck, the effects of changing the course of the narrative resulted in a $hitshow of epic proportions because several BT Stans refused to see what the show was illustrating.  It didn’t help that the actor who plays Tommy egged them on with his Cameos which made the hiatus unbearable for the network, showrunner (TM admitted it in an interview), cast, crew, fans, audience and Buddie shippers by sending death threats, harassment and just plain vile actions.  These are facts and it’s the reason why I believe the show is rectifying and retconning whosever decision it was to turn Tommy into a love interest instead of leaving him as Buck’s advisor who’s purpose was to lead him to Eddie.

During their conversation at the hanger, Tommy called Buck “kid” but the only people who have ever called him that in the past were Bobby, Red and Athena.  Additionally, if Buck’s death wasn’t supposed to be highlighted, he wouldn’t have mentioned it.  Reminder, everything in CANON has a purpose.

Furthermore, after Eddie drove up and Tommy said, “This guy” to Buck then patted him on the back, he was trying to tell him that he doesn’t realize he’s overlooking the fact that Eddie’s right in front of him and he’s been waiting for Buck to realize it.  There’s a slang definition for this phrase and I’ve already posted about it (linked here).

Also, Tommy mentioned how saving someone’s life and then DATING them never turns out the way someone expects it and his comments parallel with Clarence’s statement to George about the reason why he jumped into the river.  He told him that he did it because he wanted to save him but George said he jumped to save him.  Clarence responded that he knew George was going to jump in to save him if he saw him drowning and he did it to prevent George from committing suicide. The point is the NEW AND IMPROVED Tommy shares a lot of character traits with Clarence since they’re both supposed to be guides to the people they were assigned to. Buck can be compared to George and Tommy can be compared to Clarence.

8x5 - Scene Analysis

I’m not going to delve into the Christopher birthday party scene in 8x1 because Buck, Eddie and Tommy were the only three there.  Also, Tommy only had two lines and one was “You’re a vision in a cone” which was weird but after analyzing their scenes in 8x5, I don’t think he meant it as a compliment but let’s move on and my reasoning for this will be explained below.

Billy Boils’ Introduction

The introduction of “Billy Boils” or “William James McCurdy” is important because it appears Billy’s life parallels with Buck’s in a lot of ways.

Buck’s description of him while he was in the hospital relates to Buck’s life, i.e. his birth year 1993 (which was CANONICALLY retconned from 1991 in season 6) along with the year Daniel died but there’s one date he didn’t have and that’s what’s missing. Also, when Tommy asks is there a twist coming? The answer is YES! Why? Because the twist is Buddie is coming! The camera panned to Eddie after he asked the question. Just saying.

Additionally, at first glance, Billy’s shirt appears to be similar to the suit jacket Eddie was wearing in 7x6 during the bachelor party but once Billy’s whole casket is shown, it’s apparent he’s not wearing a full suit.  His shirt is similar to the suit color but he’s wearing a red bandana around his neck and he’s also wearing a pair of blue jeans.  I think the jeans and the bandana were meant to connect with the “Cowboy” costume Buck wore later in the episode since he was wearing those clothing items.

The hospital

When Tommy arrived, Eddie was already present and most of the time while he was talking to Buck, he kept glancing at Eddie for some reason and at first I thought it was because he was trying to get at him (my Buddie shipper goggles state he still is) but upon further review, it appears he was trying to direct Buck’s attention to Eddie.  He did it several times throughout their scenes and on at least two occasions, he verbally said something that caused Buck to refocus his attention onto Eddie.

Tommy was outside while the doctor was in the room and he only entered afterwards.  I’m not going to delve into his visitor’s badge and other things because they’ve already been discussed but I will focus on the lack of affection between the two of them since it was a theme throughout the episode.  It seems like the show wanted the audience to know that Tommy and Buck are friends and nothing more.  If they were in a relationship, then Tommy would have reacted differently especially since Buck didn’t have any boils on his face at the time.  I mean Buck was lying in bed with his chest all out and from both a Buddie shipper and a GA perspective, I asked myself why because every other time Buck’s been in the hospital (he’s been in one at least four times over the seasons) and each time he was wearing a gown but not this time.  Therefore, there had to be a reason.  Logically, if Tommy and Buck were dating, Buck would have covered up since Eddie was in there but he was bare chested before Tommy arrived.  Additionally, Buck hasn't been seen SHIRTLESS IN YEARS (IIRC, season 2 was the last time), so there's a reason why he was naked up top, right? Right! I will point out that he pulled the covers up when Tommy entered so there’s that but from a viewer’s point of view, Buck’s boobs were out for Eddie’s benefit.

Also, the part about Billy getting his sights on someone, that was another reference to Eddie because once Buck figures out he was trying to get Eddie's attention, he'll never let him go. 😎

The loft before Eddie arrived

The next time we saw Buck and Tommy, it was nighttime and they were in the loft getting ready to go to sleep.  Buck was doing one of his deep dives on the internet about Billy Boils but after Tommy got him an ice pack and some ibuprofen, he wanted to lay on the couch and go to sleep.  Now before I mention any details regarding the things he said to Buck, I’ll admit when I watched the scene with my Buddie shipper goggles, I thought he was being an asshat.  However, when I viewed it from a GA perspective, I asked myself what the show wanted the audience to see and it appears he came across as a friend who didn’t want to end up there taking care of someone he’s only known for a few months.  It would have been easy to have Eddie there especially since he spent time there with Buck during the pandemic as well as other times.  However, if he would have been there, it’s possible the audience wouldn’t have questioned why Tommy wasn’t.  Apparently, this is all part of TM’s big relationship reveal for Buddie.  Was it painful for anyone who knows the character of Buck to watch?  YES!  Why?  Because Tommy literally told him to go to bed and that he needed to turn off his laptop.  He sounded like a parent and the more I think about it, the more I believe that’s the option the show wants the GA to see and believe.

Reminder, Tommy calls him Evan but what other grown man on the show calls him that?  PHILLIP!  Eddie’s only called him Evan once but Phillip does it all the time (I’ll do a separate post about this because if I include it all here, this post will be even longer).

The point is if Tommy’s supposed to be Buck’s boyfriend, then the GA will question why they aren’t acting romantically.  Therefore, it appears the show is allowing them to demonstrate in CANON that they ARE NOT in a relationship.  Why is this important?  Because if someone watched 7x4 it means they saw them kiss and now they’re questioning why they are so distant and why they aren’t touching each other or holding hands.  They showed just enough for their relationship to be questioned so that whenever Eddie was in the scene, it would be CRYSTAL CLEAR that he’s Buck’s life partner NOT Tommy’s.

The loft after Eddie arrived

The next day, after Tommy literally recoiled at Buck’s boils, Eddie was there and he was shown medically assisting Buck while Tommy just watched.  This is also important for the GA because they should ask themselves the same question I did since Tommy’s a firefighter/EMT too (post linked here).  I wanted to know why he wasn’t helping him and honestly, it pissed me off regardless as to whether I was viewing the episode as a GA member or a Buddie shipper.  It’s just another reason why it seems like the show wanted Eddie there and IMO, it worked perfectly.

While they're talking, Tommy actually tells Buck to "listen to the medic" and "Well, there's you answer" and he was looking at and talking about Eddie when he made both statements. Reminder, Eddie and Chris are the answers (related post linked here).

The firehouse

When Buck arrived at the firehouse, Eddie wouldn’t look at him and from a Buddie shipper perspective, initially I thought it was weird.  But after I remembered the way Eddie was wearing sunglasses for the majority of 7x4, I figured he did it because he didn’t want Buck to see his heart eyes.  Reminder, the episode is called “Masks” and Eddie did everything he could to avoid looking at Buck whenever they were alone together.  It happened at the hospital while he was pretending to read a magazine, at the firehouse and at the hospital again while they were waiting to get news about Denny.

If they caught it, the GA should question it but since most viewers only watch an episode once, it’s possible they didn’t.  Reminder, they don’t theorize, look at scenes more than once to see how many times they looked or glanced at each other and they don’t analyze episodes.  Therefore, the interactions between Buck and Eddie have to illustrate they’re perfect for each other from an overall perspective so they can notice it and that’s what it appears the show is doing.

The hospital scene with the 118

After I watched this scene I laughed because it kind of seemed like Tommy wasn’t even present.  My perspective didn’t change when I rewatched it because I noticed for the second time that no one was interacting with him except for Buck, the nurse who asked Buck if he’d been seen and the one time Eddie looked up.  This was another scene that reminded me of George Bailey since there were times when he was the only person who could see Clarence.  I thought it was interesting that Chimney, Bobby and Athena didn’t interact with Tommy once and in fact, they never looked at him.  Chimney was literally sitting in front of him beside Eddie but he couldn’t be bothered.  From a GA perspective, I asked why and I think other viewers might have too.

The graveyard

After watching Buck stand in the graveyard with Tommy several feet away from him, I was reminded of Buck’s and Eddie’s graveyard scene from 6x15 along with two movies; “It’s a Wonderful Life” and “The Karate Kid.”  First, the way Buck and Tommy were standing caught my attention because when George and Clarence went to visit George’s brother Harry in the graveyard in “It’s a Wonderful Life”, they were standing several feet apart too.

Reminder, Clarence was an angel who served as a guide to George when he questioned why he was born.  Also, if George had never been born, then his brother Harry would have died.  It’s similar to Buck’s story, however even though Buck was born to save Daniel, he wasn’t able to save him.

Second, in the movie “The Karate Kid” after Daniel kicked that bully’s ass (I don’t remember his name), Mr. Myiagi (the man who taught Daniel how to do karate) was standing outside of the ring watching Daniel during his final match.  When Daniel won, Mr. Myiagi smiled and nodded his head the same way Tommy was doing while Buck was talking to Billy Boils.  It stuck out to me because Mr. Myiagi was the guide/teacher/advisor to Daniel and it appears that’s who Tommy is to Buck.

While Buck was doing his monologue, when he got to the part about dying alone and the scene cut to Eddie, my heart broke and it reminded me of the scene in “It’s a Wonderful Life” when George went to find Mary (the woman he married) who ended up being an “Old Maid” (the movie’s words not mine) because George was never born.  I think that’s a reference point and if my season 7 analysis is correct about Buck still being in a coma or having amnesia, then it’s possible Eddie’s still waiting for Buck to remember.

Also, when Buck asks Billy to lift the curse and he walks away, Tommy says, “Please lift it” but I don’t think he was saying that for himself.  My interpretation is Tommy’s found himself in a situation that he never intended to be in because he’s a loner and he’s the type of person who does exactly what he said in 7x4.  He doesn’t date people he meets on calls because it never turns out the way they expect it to but they’re grateful.  If that’s the case then it seems like the show has turned Tommy’s character into someone who’s only supposed to be there for a short time, i.e., a teacher, an advisor or a guide which means he’ll be gone soon.

It appears Buck’s the one who’s trying to turn him into his boyfriend simply because he’s confused about who’s attention he really wanted.  OS has referenced relationship problems for them but no one knows what those are.  Based on this episode, it’s possible it could revolve around the status of their relationship or the fact that they were never meant to be.

Additional references

There are several references that link Eddie and Buck that have been incorporated into episodes and I’ve included some important ones below.  Four of them are specific to Buck, Eddie and Tommy and they include the words “Math” (or functions that relate to it), “Cowboy”, “Exhausting” and “Dating someone you rescued.”  They appear to be used as a way to direct the GA to Buddie since Eddie said them first, Buck repeated them and Tommy said the words too at some point while he's been on screen. It appears he was gently reminding Buck that his focus and attention should be on Eddie!

“Showstopper”

Buck told the 118 that Billy Boils was a real showstopper and after he realized he was a real person, Bobby told him he was right, Billy was a real showstopper.  I included this reference because it seemed like it was relevant to 7x4 since Buck’s bisexual journey began at the end of the episode and it was a showstopper.  It’s just the BT stans took things too far by focusing on the PLOT DEVICE instead of the MAIN CHARACTER and that’s how things got off course. Buck and Eddie are MAIN CHARACTERS and Tommy is NOT. He never will be so it's evident the show wants the GA to remember that especially since Tommy will be gone soon.

“Math”

In 3x4, Eddie told Buck, “You don’t know math!” while Buck was the Fire Marshal and in 6x13, after Buck was struck by lightning, he ended up with a special math skill.  He told Eddie and Chris, “Turns out, I love math” and in 6x15, while Buck and Eddie were standing in the cemetery, Eddie said, “I know we razed you about your old ‘math’ skills.  Maybe I even tried to get rich off of them.”  And in 8x5, Tommy referred to his accountant (math related field of study) cousin and commented, “Every tax season, my accountant cousin breaks out in hives all across his legs.”  FYI: Math is a universal language just like love.

“Cowboy”

In 6x10, Eddie said, “Alright ‘cowboy’ go get ‘em” right before Buck went up the ladder before the lightning strike.  In 8x5, Buck’s costume (reminder, his blue jeans was the bottom half of Billy Boils’ costume) was a ‘Cowboy’ and later in the episode, Tommy said, “I think someone was up too late with their ‘cowboy’.”

“Dating someone you rescued”

In 6x15, Eddie told Buck that dating someone he rescued from a call wouldn’t end well which means Buck knows this but he did it anyway.  Then in 7x4, Tommy reiterated what Eddie had already told Buck when he said dating someone he rescued never ends the way he expected.  This is one of the reasons why Buck dating Tommy would never work because Tommy isn’t looking for a long term relationship but Buck is and now Buck’s clinging like he always does and it appears Tommy wants to leave.

“Exhausting”

In 3x5, during Eddie’s and Buck’s famous supermarket argument, Eddie said, “Because you’re ‘exhausting’!” then he continued and explained his reasoning (which had absolutely nothing to do with firefighting and everything to do with how much he missed Buck).  Then four seasons later, in 7x4, since Buck was STILL confused about who’s attention he was trying to get, he told Tommy “Trying to get your attention has been kind of ‘exhausting’!” but Tommy’s response of “My attention?” proves he KNEW Buck wasn’t trying to get his attention and the showrunner called back to this in 8x5 when Tommy said, “Lights out Evan.  I’m ‘exhausted’.”

Similar to the cowboy reference, Eddie said it first, Buck remembered it and said it to Tommy who turned around and referred to it in 8x5 to Buck to HELP GUIDE HIM TO EDDIE!

The point of this post is to illustrate 9-1-1 was trying to show the GA that Buck and Tommy were never meant to be a couple.  If they were, then they would have shown some sort of public displays of affection.  They would have been in bed together when they went to the loft and REMINDER, this is a TV show and that “Hotshots” director reiterated that when Bobby was trying to tell Brad and the other actors about using sledgehammers to open the wall.  That’s important because TV shows aren’t accurate and that means if they wanted to, they could have let Buck and Tommy be romantic and show intimacy BUT THEY DIDN’T BECAUSE THEY DIDN’T WANT THEM TO AND THEY’RE NOT A COUPLE.

Tommy didn’t kiss Buck once but he touched his leg when he arrived at the hospital and that was before the boils appeared on his face.  The bottom line is in 7x4, Tommy was set up to be Buck’s confidant and guide so that he would have a supposedly more experienced and older person to help him as he learned more about his bisexuality.  However, either the network, BT Stans or both ruined it because they cared more about Buck being with ANY dude than the man who’s given him his heart over and over again (EDDIE).  Therefore, it appears the showrunner is unraveling the messy way season 7 ended with Buck being in a relationship with the person who was supposed to be more of a friend so that Buck and Eddie can get their EPIC LOVE STORY!

It’s likely Buck’s next onscreen kiss will be with EDDIE DIAZ and reminder... Buck’s boobs weren’t out for nothing. 👀 Eddie was trying not to look but Tommy didn't look below Buck's face at all for the entirety of episode 8x5. Just saying.

These are the things that were shown in CANON and I am not involved in the show so I don’t have any say in how things are done.  But if I did, Tommy wouldn’t have ever been included because IMO, he wasn’t needed since Buddie’s romantic foundation was established several seasons ago (looking at the kitchen scene).  For some reason, TM felt like he needed to redo everything and here we are waiting on Eddie’s storyline to move forward and Buck to remove himself from whatever TF he has going on with Tommy.  The only logical idea I can came up with is maybe TM wanted to start over since they’re on a new network but it wasn’t necessary especially since 9-1-1 is in its 8th season.  Older shows run out of time and if viewership keeps dropping (I’m talking about live viewers), it’ll be difficult for them to get a 9th season so this show needs to get on with making them CANON so they won’t run out of time.

Before I end this post, I’d like to invite everyone to think about what happened at the end of “It’s a Wonderful Life.”  George went home after he realized he was better off being alive than dead and he went home to his wife and kids.  I’m not saying Buck will go home to Eddie for Christmas but… if my analysis is correct and 9-1-1 is still using Buck’s coma dream/amnesia or whatever as a point of reference then who knows what could happen before the end of 8A.  Also, as of the date this post is completed, there hasn’t been any confirmation that there will be a Christmas episode this year.  One last thing, in 3x10 “Christmas Spirt” Buck worked with Athena so the 118 could celebrate Christmas with their families since they had to work and in 2x10 “Merry X-Mas” the Christmas Elf told Buck, “You two have an adorable son” and Buck said, “Thank you.”

We’ll all just have to wait and see what happens.

TLDR: Buck and Eddie are the main characters and the BUDDIE SHIP is the primary and only focus.  The showrunner created the ship, he’s very vocal about his opinions of it and he’s quick to let the audience know it was his idea.  BuckTommy is a fan/stan created ship, it’s NOT part of the plan, Tommy will never be a main because he’s a PLOT DEVICE who had one job and that’s to guide Buck to Eddie because Buck was trying to get Eddie’s attention in 7x4.

[buddiebeginz]

So B*mmy's attacked another journalist and caused them to go private on twitter. This time it was the person who wrote the article for USWeekly. The one about couples people want to see happen and because they included Buddie B*mmy's went after them.

You know they go on and on about how their ship is endgame and how Buddie is never going to happen. Well if that were truly the case they wouldn't need to attack us for our head canons. They wouldn't care if we saw Eddie as queer. They wouldn't even care if Eddie came out. They certainly wouldn't need to care about random articles that talked about how Buddie could happen.

But they do care and they do feel threatened because they know deep down that everything since s7 is screaming that their ship isn't going to last. Everytime they harrass people so publicly and loud like this all they do is make their entire fandom look awful. Fandom drama doesn't dictate what decisions Tim is going to make for the show but I do think it can play a factor. I think fandom in general can play a role in what stories get made. I don't think Buck would have ever even come out as bi if not for the Buddie fandom being as loud and supportive of it happening as we've been over the years.

I'm positive that Tim, the higher ups at abc, and the actors have all taken notice of the toxicity of the B*mmy fandom. Tim himself called them out in that podcast during the hiatus. And while Buddie fandom have said and done things that have crossed lines over the years we have never been as bad as some of the stuff I've seen coming from B*mmy stans since last season. They have repeatedly attacked not only our fandom but journalists, the actors (literally making a 4 hour podcast of their hate for Oliver and also telling Ryan he should have finished the job after he opened up about being s*icidal), the 911news account, etc.

From what I've seen they can't handle anyone having a different opinion than them. Almost since 7x04 happened I've seen them attacking Buddie shippers and calling us homophobic for still shipping Buddie. Even though the majority of Buddie shippers were supportive of the kiss when it happened and were thrilled Buck had his bi awakening. But because we've continued to talk about how we want to see Buddie happen, something a lot of us have done for years regardless of whatever love interest the guys have been with and because we've talked about our issues with T*mmy, especially with how he treats Buck, they think that gives them the right to attack us personally. 

I fully support everyone's right to like the stuff they like and dislike the stuff they don't. Lord knows I've shipped a lot of unpopular ships over the years. But B*mmy stans have made this not just about a fictional show and ships anymore. This isn't just about how one group likes one ship and one group likes another. This is about how one group in the 911 fandom uses the fact that they ship a canon m|m ship as a shield to be abusive to anyone who disagrees with them.

They've made it so it's not just Buddie shippers who want T*mmy and that ship to go it's also everyone who is tired of dealing with the poison they've injected into the 911 fandom. They don't just make their own fandom look bad when they act out the way they do they make 911 fandom as whole look bad. I've been a part of this fandom for years and never seen animosity as bad it's been this year. I hope that when T*mmy goes our fandom can heal though to be honest there a lot of people I no longer care to interact with after all this.

[k-hippie]

BIG NOVEMBER THINGS & STUFF ... PART 1 ( K-505 UPDATE )

Hello fellows, be prepared to read, it's going to be a bit long :D

Hope you had a great Halloween ;) Some of you have noticed related download problems on our website ( We received a lot of messages about --> Thanks to all people who took time to send us a note about, it helped us )

We worked with BlueHost to reconfigure our databases <--- meaning hours with the hotline to push them hard to repair their unknown manipulations that give all the errors you encountered :/ Silly isn't it ?

It begins to be ok ... Not sure it's 100% but many errors seem to be repaired ... at last ! Crazy week indeed :)

MEANWHILE ...

MAJOR UPDATE incoming ... I finished the K-505 Base-game update <-- this is important because many things are encapsulated inside the Base-game files ! Unfortunately, Maxis modified some of these files and we were quite surprised to discover all the hidden changes ... A K-505 MAJOR UPDATE was so needed :) And it is done.

Beyond the files here and there, the most important thing of this update is the merge of Base-game + Seasons files all together.

In addition, we made complete K-505 updates for : Strangerville, Forgotten Hollow + a minor update for Sulani ( Island Living ) ...

ATTENTION : As we currently updating ALL the K-505, we re-arranged the Download Section ( a good thing anyway since BlueHost messed our databases ... :/ )

A word about the K-505 Mod ---> until Cottage Living : free doesn't mean free to steal, or use in house creation, photography posts, etc ... without crediting the tech-hippie / k-hippie team ...

We are watching. Always.

Another word related to terrains mods ---> after Cottage Living ... Even if we posted some words about, we receive numerous messages asking us to make this and that. It's OK. But let's be clear about :

We are not fond of the last 2/3/4 packs of EA for reasons of our own ...

We really though about enter in a Patreon model because we think our creations are worthing :) BUT, we dislike Patreon too for reasons of our own ...

We proposed for a long time a ko-fi/paypal volunteer system and believe me, very very very few are giving among 9000 followers. It's OK. We understand. We create too for our pleasure. BUT ...

When your priority is not ours, to make a junction, everyone should make an effort :)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

You use the K-505 for a long time now ? You know how it works ;) but you are always welcome to ask questions :D

You never used the K-505 but you want to have it ? Easy, put the k-505 files into your Mods folder and that's it :) If not, ask and we'll answer ;)

The K-505 Mod ( which is not really a Mod ) overrides only the graphic files of Maxis terrains, they are just DST images in .dds and so, they can only conflict with similar ID files from elsewhere.

K-505 Updated DOWNLOAD

Next Post : Discovering together the K-303 Mod and some new downloads.

Let the pixels be free and alive :) and Have Fun !

[scoobydoodean]

I was wondering if you, as a Dean fan have opinions about the different writers? Mostly because I see a lot of Dean fans really strongly dislike Dabb for some reason and I don’t really understand why. I’ve never seen a concrete explanation beyond “he can’t write Dean/doesn’t understand Dean/actively hates Dean” but with no examples as to what he does that’s so bad. And I see this in every shipping lane. I don’t have a strong opinion about him as a writer one way or the other.

I'm exploring this more as I rewatch the show (currently on season 6) so I'll speak mainly from that perspective on my most recent thoughts. I am not a big fan of Dabb or Loflin, but have tried to be fair about things so far when talking through each episode. I am a fan of "Alpha and Omega"—it's my favorite finale (it's also... a finale for a season Carver started as showrunner? So I don't know what the implications are there as far as storyboarding). Also points for having demon Dean stab a guy through in 10.02.

I'll focus on the negatives you asked about in this post, but in the links you'll find me moving the narrative this way and that toward much more charitable readings... I think. (I do have a tag #dabb disk horse which you can either peruse or blacklist at your leisure). What I can tell you is something almost always strikes me as a off about Dabb/Loflin episodes so far in this rewatch in terms of character work.

Dabb/Loflin's first ever episode was 4.06 "Yellow Fever". In the aftermath, Kripke felt the need to release a definitive interpretation of their episode to the public, stating, "Dean is not a dick... he's a hero." The whole episode toyed with, to an extent, the idea that all the victims of the MotW were bullies. You can take this other directions—for example, queer meta, or meta about Sam as the real bully. However, the story a lot of fandom latched onto was that "Dean is a jerk and deserves to be humiliated and punished for that" which obviously didn't make Dean fans watching live in season 4 happy—and this theme of Jerk!Dean continues into their next episode, "After School Special", where they once again parallel Dean with a bully literally nicknamed "Dirk the Jerk" by Sam, and throw what I think is transparent shade at Kripke's issued statement from before the Christmas break (post here)... or maybe they mean to throw shade at the Dean fans who got angry. In this episode, they also make illusions to Dean wanting to have sex with barely legal high school cheerleaders, which also did not ingratiate them to Deanfans at the time. I said on my last rewatch, "In After School Special, Dean seems more unlike himself than any episode ever in the history of Supernatural up to this point" (post explaining that here). I carry similar sentiments about portions of 5.06 "I Believe The Children Are Our Future". Yes—I am aware of performing Dean meta. I just... feel like they try a little too hard. It feels hamfisted—desperate. To the point it doesn't feel like Dean anymore sometimes. In 5.06, they also have Dean (guy who is generally very protective of kids) suggest to Jesse that he'd be good to have in a fight???? I can see how they got there, but again—it just feels... off. The last episode I rewatched that they authored, 6.04 "Weekend At Bobby's", also leaves a bad taste in my mouth—not in what it's trying to do with Bobby or what it's trying to do on a meta level—but once again, with dialogue from Dean that just makes me think "he would not fucking say that" (post here). I think looking at all of these, you can probably see deangirl ire toward Dabb has a long history. It's been around as long as he's been around, whether he deserves as much ire as he gets or not.

I haven't circled back yet on this rewatch, but Dabb and Loflin also penned season 7's "The Girl Next Door"... do I need to say anything specific? Maybe I'll just link my entire #amy tag. What narrative did they want you to get from that episode? Who the fuck knows. And that's often the problem:

When you watch various episodes I've mentioned, you can work around to a meta that tells you something different than you might at first think the page conveys—something hidden and maybe contradictory. The thing is... you could also... not do that? And that wouldn't be so bad, except that sometimes the two narratives you can most easily grasp completely contradict each other. "After School Special" can be an episode that points to Sam's envy of Dean and John deep down and foreshadows Sam becoming a bully, but on a meta level, it also just as easily says Sam becoming a bully is somehow Dean's fault, and Sam is some poor captive baby. Dean is a creep and a bully and a cheater but we should all coddle him because he saw his mom die when he was a child and he's sooo sad. "Yellow Fever" can be a queer meta story and might also foreshadow approaching Bully!Sam in 4.14, but it also very much does call Dean a jerk (should we take that seriously? should we not?) and implies Dean should be punished for the outcome of three decades of reality-bending torture. Even if it's a queer meta underneath... it's just as easily one about how closeted men should be humiliated for cowardice or how being closeted turns you into an asshole.

Jumping way ahead, I have to mention 15.10 "The Hero's Journey" just because. Yes, it is full of jokes and Garth goodness, but also tries to sell you the story that nothing about Sam and Dean is real, to a degree that feels like you are being flipped the bird for ever watching this show. And again—you can make meta that it's all a ruse! But is it? Or is Dabb actually just telling you to go fuck yourself? Like he totally wasn't when, after the SPN finale when fans were Not Happy™️, he tweeted a sign reading, "Don't feed the baboons"? Yet again—we play into the motif of the "hero" who isn't a hero at all but some pathetic loser who deserves to be publicly humiliated, bookended with Dabb's opening episode in his opening season. I'm not saying that's what it is on purpose—but I am saying you can make these arguments easily, and that leaves me consistently annoyed with Dabb for being fucking sloppy and leaving me to deal with some of the most insufferable meta imaginable that carries little support outside of episodes written by Dabb or the Dabb/Loflin writing team.... Yes—I am in fact saying that Dabb and Loflin's hamfisted episodes (regardless of their intentions) are largely responsible for some of the most insufferable, loathesome fandom metas about Sam and Dean's relationship around.

Look at 5.16 "Dark Side Of The Moon", and 7.08 "Time for A Wedding!" and 8.14 "Trial and Error", 11.17 "Red Meat", and 15.20 "Carry On". Along with 4.13, while they might or might not say something deeper or contradictory on a meta level, on a surface level, every single one of these episodes sows the narrative that Dean is needy and clingy and needs Sam more than Sam needs him—something I intensely disagree with for a multitude of reasons... but I'll just link this. Many of these episodes also follow a surface level narrative of "normal life obsessed Sam" (and here I'll link my entire #sam the hunter tag and #in which sam is not a helpless little waif with his hands cast over his eyes being carried along by the tides of the immutable sea). When I look at this episode list, I also don't find it at all difficult to believe that Dabb wanted Dean to die in the finale. There is nothing at all shocking about that. And yes—you can argue he's pointing to the opposite—that this fate should be subverted and that's what makes 15.20 the dark ending, but I think you can just as easily argue that yes it's a dark ending and yes Dabb has always dreamed of this ending. A "tragic" ending where Dean dies and Sam goes on to have a white picket fence... while also leaving you little hints along the way that maybe it's all a big ruse because how could he not? He never has to explain anything. Someone else will pick up the story and make it make sense. He's already fucked off to piss all over fans of Resident Evil.

That said, when I mention what I feel is off character work, I mainly mention Dabb/Loflin episodes from my recent rewatch, which suffer from the two of them being newer to the series (coming onto the writing team in season 4) and also leave questions about whether, perhaps, they had conflicting ideas about characterization. Was Dabb the one penning these lines? Was it Loflin? Was it both? Did they trade out who took the lead? I didn't really say anything negative about "Sam, Interrupted" or "Jump the Shark"... (though "Sam, Interrupted" also calls Dean "codependent") who wrote those? Is it possible that the messiness of the meta comes down to two writers at war? I have to imagine though, that they got along, or else they wouldn't have written together for four fucking years. If they didn't get along...? My mind always comes back to their first solo episodes, right after splitting up in season 8. Dabb's first solo episode is "Hunteri Heroici"—the only episode to lend any perspective to season 8 Sam's reasons for abandoning everyone—paralleling him checking out with Fred's catatonia, which Sam has to save Fred from. It is the only episode that lends Sam sympathy in the early part of the season. He follows it up with "Trial and Error"—where Sam promises to save Dean from suicidal thoughts. Loflin's first solo episode is what I would regard as the most scathing solo episode commentary on Sam in the entire series—"Citizen Fang". Then he writes again right after Dabb's "Trial and Error"—penning "Remember The Titans" where Sam tells Dean to get over the promise Sam so passionately made in Dabb's episode and face reality.

This is why we're exploring this rewatch.

DISCLAIMER: Now I just devolve into bitching because I'm writing at 3AM. Proceed at your own risk.

It seems like these days, everyone demands an explanation for disliking Dabb (something about some sort of destiel battle... I don't know what that flamewar is and I don't give a damn tbqh.) I guess I've just been wondering what's actually so great about him. Because it feels like people have overcorrected to basically acting like he's god's greatest gift to mankind. People point to how meta his episodes can be, but I think other writers easily best him on that front on multiple occasions (particularly enjoyed by me so far on this rewatch: 3.10 "Dream A Little Dream Of Me", 4.04 "Monster Movie", 4.12 "Criss Angel Is A Douchebag"), and without leaving their meaning so up in the air that you don't even know what the hell they were actually trying to tell you because there are two different completely incongruous narratives you could just as justifiably claim were the intended one. Some people may find that duality praise-worthy. I don't. I find it sloppy—and when I add in mediocre character work, I just land on the side of him being, at the very best, mid.

Add him in as showrunner, you have... at least two of my least favorite seasons (13 and 15). Add that he's a one-trick pony in terms of the Sam and Dean conflicts mentioned above that he continuously rehashes rather than come up with anything new or fresh, and the same conflicts between Dean and Cas being played out until they both die (shut UP I'm not talking about canon destiel as the alternative—I am literally just asking for more diverse conflicts). I can't say I understand what I''m supposed to find so impressive.

(Before anyone so much as breathes this near me, Berens also sucks and I am going to tear off your nose hairs if you start bringing him up as if disliking Dabb for some reason means wearing rose colored glasses about Berens. Berens can eat a whole cactus raw over "The Trap" alone.)

[livefromcastledracula]

Book Carmilla vs Adaptations (SPOILERS)

Here are a few 'interesting' adaptations. I like some of them for their own merits, but mostly dislike them as Carmilla adaptations for the below reasons, with some notable exceptions: Vampyr: The Dream of Allan Gray (1932 film): The first Carmilla inspired movie, although it keeps almost NOTHING from the novella except 'female vampire'. In this case, a creepy old lady rather than a charming young lesbian. This is a really moody, slow, acid trip of a film though, a treat for fans of vintage vampire film. (3/10) Hammer Karnstein Trilogy: The Vampire Lovers is the gayest and most book-accurate. Carmilla still kisses/seduces men before killing them, boo. The second one her identically-named reincarnation is blonde and has sex with / falls in love with a man booooooo. She's not in the third one at all. It's all very 70's and nowhere near queer enough, but at least we got the incomparable Ingrid Pitt in the first movie. 5/10. Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust: 'Carmilla' shows up as a surprise third act villain. She's an elegant and imposing vampire queen with a castle called "Cjethe" and the Vampire King offed her previously for being A Bit Too Extra. She's... Bathory. She's Elizabeth Bathory, right down to the name of her historical castle, the elaborate gowns and the blood-bathing. Bathory in Castlevania Nocturne even looks a lot like this one. Cool scary vampire lady, but Carmilla In Name Only. 4/10 Castlevania (Games): She's fine here, but mostly just kind of a big Dracula groupie like most of the other non-Dracula vampires. Often depicting as a flying skull or mask crying bloody tears, with optional succubus-like figure reclining on top of it. Cool. Rondo of Blood has her appear together with a ninja vampire Laura with bunny ears because why the hell not. 6/10 Castlevania (Netflix show): Baddass, angry Karen. She's amazing in the first season when she's scheming against Dracula, but after that she just sort of sits on her butt sipping wine and griping about men for a whole season until Isaac storms her castle. A cool character but not a great Carmilla, because Carmilla for me is defined by how much she loves women, not how much she hates men. Still amazing voice work by Jaime Murray though and her last stand was insanely baddass. 7/10

Carmilla Web Series / Movie: My favorite adaptation. It's obviously playing waaaay fast and loose with the canon and reframing her as a charming antihero in a zany urban fantasy, but there's deep current of love for the source material, especially in the movie. Natasha Negovanlis has charisma off the charts and the Hollstein romance is adorable. This Carmilla might be a black-leather-wearing snarky millenial goth with a Canadian accent, but as the show goes on it peels back layer after layer of the romantic, poetic, wistful, world-weary immortal hinted at by the novella. This show redeems LeFanu's lovelorn villain in all the best ways. 10/10. 2019 movie / Styria movie: I still haven't seen these, have heard good things about the gothic cinematography on the most recent one but not good things about the rest of it. The trailer looked moody and pretty though, I may watch it at some point.

[ave-on-main]

“Pre-boot Roy's dynamic with Slade is what fanon wishes Dick's relationship with Slade would be” is a bad faith fanon myth.

I’ve seen this statement go around since Dark Crisis ended last year and wittnessed people actually believe it, so here we go: It’s not true.

First of, lets talk about what allegedly makes pre-boot Roy the person that fanon thinks Dick is to Slade:

One panel that gets taken out of context to prove the statement above is Slade talking about Roy as his “ace in the hole” in Titans (2008) which gets equated to Slade calling Dick a “trophy” in Dark Crisis (2022). In context, these two instances are not the same. Comparing them makes no sense. More on why in the Roy section of this little essay.

Another point of contention is that Rebirth Dick secretly works together with Slade to protect the Titans (2016). People claim that is a rehash of what happened when Roy worked together with Slade while Roy was the leader of the Outsiders (2003), but the premises are entirely different. In Titans Dick works with Slade to protect the other team members. In Outsiders Roy uses Slade’s intel and funding without knowing he’s speaking to Slade. He thinks Slade is Batman.

It is also worth noting that the Rebirth version has more in common with the Apprentice arc of Teen Titans Animated 2003. TT 03 came out at the same time Outsiders did. Slade was revealed to be Roy’s contact in Outsiders #21 (February 2005). The first time Slade appears as Batman is Outsiders #4 (September 2003), but it is not known to readers or characters that Batman is not Bruce. The Apprentice arc of TT 03 started in Season 1 Episode 11 (October 2003). The show didn’t copy the comics, nor assumably did the comics copy the show. It could be a weird attempt at synergy to reveal Slade in 2005 but it is unlikely because DC cared very little about synergy at the time. Worth noting though is, that Slade’s role in Outsiders is extremely limited. Once his identity is revealed, he is no longer part of the plot.

Now, in fanon, the Rebirth version of events is largely ignored. If anyone in fandom wants to talk about Dick working with Slade, they’ll mostly use the more thought out version of the show as a blueprint or the Renegade arc of Nightwing (1996). Both comic and show are also actually written by writers who like Dick unlike Deathstroke 2016.

That Roy is important to Rose’s developement isn’t true. She babysits Lian but she barely talks to Roy or any of the adult Titans while she appears in Titans (1999).  Nightwing: Renegade retcons that Dick was there while she babysitted Lian, but all Roy does is villify Rose, not once implying that he had anything to do with getting her on the Titans.

Equally as untrue is that Slade is actually obsessed with Roy over Dick. It’s a purely fanon take.

There’s also this conspiracy going around that Slade & Dick stans working at DC are retconning things to make Dick look better, which is, I can’t say it differently, an insane statement to make. Dan Didio erased the Slade-Dick rivalry from existance, so much so that Higgins could not use them in the same story even though he was writing both New 52 books. Seeley & King could merely put Deathstroke into Grayson (2014) as a papershield target practice. Christopher Priest dislikes Dick, which he not only states on his blog but is also obvious in his writing (Deathstroke #4). Interestingly, the people screaming about retcons ruining everything had nothing to say about Rebirth Roy being part of the NTT roaster while Grant attacks the team (Lazarus Contract).

Infinite Frontier ties Dick and Slade together once more, but it is almost all talk and no show. It’s a distant echo of their pre-boot relationship. There was zero build up to their reconnection. Frankly, a Dick & Slade stan would put a lot more effort into it. The only reason DC brought a semblance of their rivalry back was because of Red X nostalgia and it shows. Dick only dons the Deathstroke mask in Future State: Teen Titans to complement Red X and his hunt for Deathstroke in Teen Titans Academy is mention but never shown, not even as a one panel flashback.

Meanwhile Green Arrow is now the first hero Deathstroke fought (Deathstroke Inc. Year One) and Slade encounters Roy soon after (Infinite Frontier: Secret Files #2). DC is still trying to tie Slade to the JL rather than to the Titans.

But what are their actual Pre-Boot relationships?

Vastly different, that’s for sure. 

At first, Dick is largely tied to Slade because of Joey and the similarities (skill-wise) Slade sees in Dick. Later Dick’s ties to Slade’s children and what that causes makes respect turn into hate. 

Slade gets involved with Roy because of Cheshire and to manipulate the Outsiders by orders of Dr. Sivana. 

Roy Harper and Slade Wilson

Roy in Deathstroke (1991)

The first time Slade and Roy properly meet (aka actually share a word) is in Deathstroke The Terminator (1991) #18. They are both undercover and pretend to work with Cheshire.

Jade introduces Roy to Slade, and Jade “asks” for Slade’s help by using what amounts to a slave ring she can reactivate any time to control him. Together with her other underlings they set out to steal nuclear warheads.

Not knowing they could be on the same side, Roy betrays the team by going after Slade. Slade defeats him, and Roy is left in enemy territory.

Roy makes his way back after Cheshire has already nuked Qurac. The destruction makes Slade and Roy temporarly work together to apprehend Jade and reveal their allegiances to each other (#20).

While Roy is on the Titans when Rose joins the team in the following crossover event, she doesn’t interact one-on-one with him. All he does is give Impulse relationship advice because Bart is crushing on Rose (The New Titans #126).

Titans (1999)

Roy and Slade meet when Tartarus attacks H.I.V.E. which at that point is lead by an incognito Adeline Kane but don’t have a one-on-one interaction in thie story.

Their first true confrontation takes place later. Slade’s been contracted to kill Cheshire due to her nuking Qurac. As Slade and Roy fight, Slade mentions Nightwing as a comparison between the two, and even though Roy temporarly gains the upperhand, Slade escapes to go after Jade. (#22)

Rose starts to babysit Lian after the Deathstroke & Qurac incident, but weirdly enough, she barely shares a word with any of the adult Titans. She’s really just kind of there.

Outsiders (2003)

Roy believes Batman is giving him intel and is funding the Outsiders  (#6, #11) . In truth, the Batman who he’s been talking to is Slade.

It's when Dick learns that Roy hasn't been talking to the real Bruce, that Slade reveals himself. Slade fights Roy, taunting him about killing him and adopting Lian to make her an assassin. Slade realizes Roy isn't on top of his game and sees the five direct bullet wounds he's received on an earlier Outsiders mission. Taking pity, Slade decides to leave him alive (#21).

In #43 the Outsiders learn that Slade was hired by Dr. Sivana. The mad scientist saw potential in manipulating the team. It was not Slade’s idea to go after the Outsiders.

Titans (2008)

When Slade creates his own Titans team, Cheshire convinces Arsenal to join the team with her. She wants to use the opportunity to kill Slade. Roy pretends to have switched allegiances and joins the team.

Slade knows not to trust them. He uses Roy’s drug addiction against him by switching out Roy’s “regular” drugs with a substance called “Bliss”. (#27)

Later Slade uses Roy as his “ace in the hole” when the Justice League confronts them. He threatens to blow up his ship with a warhead. The League, lead by Dick as Batman, retreats as not to harm Roy. In this case, “always his ace” means the reason Roy is on the team is to be used as a human meat shield because other heroes still care for him (Annual #1).

At the end of this arc, Roy betrays the team and decides against resurrecting Lian and with that stops Slade from resurrecting Grant. Slade swears revenge on him because Roy literally did what the New Teen Titans did. “Killing Grant.” The Titans comic and the entire Pre-New 52 universe end with Roy and Joey deciding to reform the Titans because Dick still believed in the teams value.

Apart from the initial Qurac storyline, there’s no canon Slade and Roy story in which Dick doesn’t at least get mentioned.

Pre-New 52 Dick Grayson and Slade Wilson

New (Teen) Titans

Dick belongs to the six New Teen Titans that Slade originally takes on a contract against (New Teen Titans (1980) #02). Slade contacts the team soon after their first meeting to take them out. Dick plays the voice of reason during that second encounter and makes the Titans listen to Slade’s plan. Slade fails to kill them (#10).

During the Judas Contract, Slade learns Robin’s secret identity through Tara’s spying on the Titans (Tales of the Teen Titans #42). Slade attacks Dick in his office, telling him he won’t kill him if Dick doesn’t resist because H.I.V.E. wants the Titans dead or alive. Dick knows he can’t win a hand-to-hand fight against Slade and manages to trick him. Slade admires how Dick escapes, ascertaining that Dick is the leader for a reason. He’s the hardest to catch because powers don’t make a man. Just like Dick, Slade was the best even before he got augmented. It’s a first for Slade to loose his target. He blames it on being worried about the contract.

While Adeline and Joey get in contact with Dick, Slade delivers the Titans sans-Dick to H.I.V.E. (#43). Adeline proceeds to tell Dick how Slade became Deathstroke the Terminator. Afterward Joey and Dick team up to save the Titans (#44).

After Tara loses herself in her rage and dies, Dick concludes Slade and she were manipulating each other (Annual #3).

Dick remains in contact with the D.A. office to ensure the Titans are still going to testify against Slade but a Deathstroke imposter attacks Lilith. Slade’s attorney spins a defense out of the imposter (#53). Gar has his own plans for Slade while Dick and the Titans want to focus on aprehending the imposter. Dick gets sworn in as an expert witness on matters of identity, and he tries to use what Adeline told him about Slade in court, but Slade’s attorney uses Dick’s words against the Titans. Slade doesn’t go on further trial but will remain detained in prison and has a small confrontation with Dick. (#54)

Wildbeests are hunting the Titans and Slade gets hired by Dayton to save Gar and the others. He would have gone after them regardless to save Joey. He ends up searching out Dick’s apartment first, probably in hopes he hasn’t been captured yet (#71). Slade doesn’t realize that Dick is one of the Wildbeests he encounters, and the one who helpes Slade escape from the second Wildbeest.

The Wildbeests realize they have a spy and overpower Dick. Slade catches Pantha just as she finds pieces of Dick’s costume (#74). Slade invades the Wildbeest base, and Joey reveals himself to Dick and him (#75). The two end up fighting Joey, but can’t get through to him. Dick implores Slade to calm down and focus as they escape to Titans Tower. There, Slade stops Pantha when she attacks Dick shortly before the Wildbeests attack the base. Slade and Dick escape together. While Slade can’t believe Joey is doing this, Dick is the more realistic of the two. 

Later, Slade gets them out of a tough situation by morally questionably methods. Slade expects a response from Dick but gets a proverbial shrug (#76).

Shortly before their final confrontation with Joey, Slade decides he has no other choice than to kill Joey, which Dick is against. Slade kills his son because he knows the real Joey regarded the Titans as friends (#84).

Slade and Dick meet on the Titans Tower island afterward. Dick notices him, which according to Slade not many are able to do. Dick asks why he couldn’t be bothered to show up at the funeral of the son he killed. 

Dick attacks Slade in his grief over Joey, telling him to fight back. Slade does if only to tell him he lost someone too. Their fight ends when Dick admits he doesn’t get how Slade and Bruce can just keep bottling their anger up, he’d explode. Slade tells him that losing control hasn’t done him anything good and that he has to believe he freed Joey. He then shows concern for having injured Dick, but Dick denies his help, and they part ways without anything truly resolved (#86).

Dick in Deathstroke, The Terminator (1991)

Bruce calls Dick to get intel on Slade. While Dick knows how dangerous Slade is, he calls him a good man, to which Slade later responds by saying Dick’s wide-eyed and idealistic. (#7)

When Deathstroke gets into crosshairs with the Justice League and has lost much of his powers, the Titans set out to confront him. He encounters Dick and Koriand’r while he tries to escape. Dick tries to stop him and explains to him that if he’s an innocent man, he’ll stand by his side and help him get free of the charges (#14). In fact, the Titans saw what was happening to him on TV and Dick made the decision to help him or take him down depending on whether Joey dying pushed him over the edge (New Titans #89).

Dick and Slade end up working together when Eclipso tries to take over Earth’s heroes. Slade heads to Salvagion to get information about his current situation where he meets Nightwing, who’s been caught spying. Salvagion isn’t the enemy, though, Nightwing is there to retrieve information about Cyborg’s files to heal his friend. The files were lost when Titans Tower got destroyed. 

Dick and Slade fight against enemy mercenaries, who are attacking Salvagion,  and figure something is wrong. Dick then hires Slade and Pat to save the Titans.

By 1993 Dick’s appearances in Deathstroke and The New Titans apruptly ends because he had been taken back by the Bat Office. Editorial was quite strict at the time, demanding him to be written out of New Titans.

Slade in Nightwing (1996)

As Dick tries to apprehend an out of control Man-Bat, Slade shows up to do just that with tranquil darts, shooting Dick too in the process (#17). Dick learns that Slade has been contracted to capture Man-Bat alive and knows Slade doesn’t work cheap, so he and Barbara figure out who Slade has been hired by.

Dick ends up fighting Slade on a boat, treading barbs throughout, and ultimately taking Slade out long enough to escape with Man-Bat (#18).

While Dick’s working at the BPD, Dick one day comes home to find Slade in his apartment (#79). Slade reveals that he’s searched him out because he has a contract in town. Dick and Joey were such good friends, Slade feels it’s fair to tell him. Dick asks for the name of Slade’s target, but Slade hasn’t come to betray all of his cards, he’s simply trying to make a deal, so Dick stays out of his way. Dick considers calling for backup, but there’s no one he wants to put in Slade’s path.

During his police work, Dick sees Slade again and goes after him. They have a short confrontation in which Slade reiterates for him to stay out of the way, but Blüdhaven is Dick’s city, he’ll protect everyone in it. Slade threatens Dick and shoots when Gannon Malloy, Dick’s partner at the BPD, draws a gun at him. Dick saves him but gets shot in the arm (#80).

The Batfamily visits him at the hospital, and Dick asks Cass for help with Deathstroke. She fights Deathstroke and retrieves a disc from him that reveals who the target is (#81).

Dick succeeds to save Amy from Slade’s first attack, fighting Slade until he takes advantage of his injury. Dick tells Amy to run, stating Slade won’t hurt him. Even though Slade implies that he will, Slade doesn’t further fight Dick, going after his target instead. Dick ignores his own safety to attack Slade in close proximity again. It allows Amy to get far enough away for Slade to temporarly stop his hunt and punch Dick unconscious.

Dick remains by Amy’s side as much as he can, stopping Slade from shooting her by dropping bills on him and fighting him long enough to tell him that Dick s overbidding the contract put on Amy.

Slade responds by saying that he always knew that Dick had a heart (#82).

When Blockbuster dies some time later, new villains want to take his spot and as Dick learns Deathstroke will be the hired help, he considers how he can stop them while Slade knows his secret idenity (#110). Dick hunts down Westbrook to get into contact with Slade. By the time Dick returns home, Slade has received his message (which leads to the famous shower panel) and Slade witnesses how Dick has gotten involved with the Blüdhaven mob (#111). Dick tries to convince Slade that he is one of the bad guys now, but Slade claims he doesn’t have an interest in seeing Dick be a “selfloathing mercenary” now that he has to take care of Rose.

Dick wishes Rose good luck after both Grant’s and Joey’s deaths, and Slade ultimately decides through Rose’s input to let Dick train her. Rose tells Dick she was a nanny to Lian (paradoxially because he knows. He was there in Titans (1999)). They save Sophia Tevis and Rose tells her father, asking him if Dick gets to have a private life from them, which Slade replies to with “obviously not” (#112). 

While Rose and Dick investigate another crime, Slade seeks out Amy Rohrbach, telling her he won’t hurt her because she is permanently off his hitlist. He can still kill her family, though. He is searching for Sophia Tevis behind Dick’s back and confronts Dick with her existence and proof that Dick in fact remains a hero (#113). Rose’s training continues, and while Slade does not trust in Dick’s loyalty, he lets him investigate the villains Slade is currently working with (#114). Slade decides to monitor Dick as he sends out Rose and Dick to hunt Superman. Dick has been given a glove through which Slade can monitor and change his heartbeat as well as hear what is going on. Dick uses the fight to show Rose that the ideology of her father is wrong. 

When Dick is later confronted by Slade, who is threatening to kill him, Dick reveals that Slade cannot kill him for two reasons: 1. Slade killing Dick would cause Rose to betray him and 2. that Slade has always failed to kill him and that it never fails to make him mad. Slade lets Dick go, but knows Dick is messing with something too big for him (#115). 

After Slade betrays Dick, Dick plants geiger counters in Slade’s house and makes sure Rose learns that her father has been poisioning her with the Kryptonite in her eye. Slade and Dick are fighting during the conversation. Slade tries to stay in control of the situation, but Rose ultimately believes Dick, especially when Slade tries to silence him even though Rose wishes to hear what Dick has to tell. Dick makes sure Slade knows he’ll get back at him someday for what he did to Blüdhaven (#117).

Titans (1999)

This Titans story takes place before their fallout. Deathstroke is fataly wounded by Tartarus and goes to the Titans for help. Dick reluctantly offers him a temporary place on the team, but not without putting a tracker on him (#10) and reminding Slade continuously that if he fights with the Titans, he must follow their rules (#12).

Deathstroke brings Dick up while fighting Roy, claiming Arsenal is no Nightwing (#22) and Rose later becomes the carekater of Lian but hardly talks with the Titans on panel.

Teen Titans (2003)

When Slade defeats the Teen Titans by manipulating several young heroes, the original Titans aren’t happy about it. Dick tells Slade to leave (#45). When he doesn’t, Dick and he fight while the other Titans take on his crew. During the confrontation, Slade taunts Dick, but Dick still stops Cass from trying to kill him.

When Slade tells the Titans they’ll never be able to trust Rose and Joey, Dick replies that they have proven themselves and will always have a place on the team. Slade gets away, revealing it was all a test to see if his children will have a good life with the Titans (#46).

Infinite Crisis (2005)

After everything that has happened with Grant, Joey and finally Rose, Slade blames Dick for his misfortune (#7). (The page this panel is from was apparently accidentally erased in the digital version of this issue. It can only be found in the digital collected edition and the print editions.)

Batman & Robin (2009)

Talia hires Deathstroke to kill Dick by letting him take control of Damian’s body. She states that Slade has a “long and eventful history” with the “foolish young Batman pretender”. Slade has waited a long time to get rid of Dick per his own words (#11). Slade wants Dick to know who is going to cripple him, so Talia intensifies the neural bond for Slade to be able to speak through Damian. They are working together because they have both lost their children to the hero community because of Dick.

Damian is resisting the control, which makes Slade unable to do much more than to reiterate his desire to kill Dick. Dick electroshocks Damian, knowing Damian can handle it, but Slade likely can’t because of his enhanced senses making him more vulnerable while connected through the neural link. Slade goes into shock, and Dick later searches him out after infiltrating Talia’s base to give him payback. 

Titans (2008)

Deathstroke makes a deal with Mad Hatter, which causes his group of Titans to cause havoc in Arkham Asylum. Dick, then Batman, stops him from taking an inmate with him (#28). Slade calculates whether fighting Dick is worth it and decides to do so. Dick is still furious at Slade for what he did to Damian.

Dick is forced to let Slade get away to save two Arkham guards but pursues him, getting confronted by the new Titans team Deathstroke is leading (#29). Dick and Roy shortly work together. Dick tries to convince him that he is not a villain, but Slade tells Dick Roy is now on his side.

Slade and his Titans are able to leave while Dick deals with the freed inmates off-panel (#30). Ray Palmer point out to Dick that he is taking the confrontation badly, initially only blaming it on the appearance of Slade, who Dick has fought “more times than any [hero]” (#34). Slade reveals to Roy that he chose him for the team to ensure the League could not act in fear of putting him in mortal  danger. Dick gives the order for the JLA to fall back but both Slade and Roy know they’ll still be pursued.

As usual, Dick and Slade share a snarky exchange before the serious fight begins. Dick leaves Slade to Ray while he engages with Roy. The hero Isis stops the fight because they are in her land. Dick makes it known that they should have killed Slade long ago but retreats with the League, giving Roy hope in the process to stand against Slade’s goal (Titans Annual #1).

Conclusion

Fans who enjoy the Dick-Slade dynamic whether at DC or in fandom aren’t erasing Roy to slot in Dick. Slade obsessing over Dick isn’t a new concept. He grew obsessed because their paths crossed many times over the years, and Dick has ties to all three of his children. Slade never felt obsession toward Roy.

If you want your fanon Slade to be obsessed with fanon Roy, and you want to transform canon moments, go ahead, nobody is stopping you, but don’t pretend it’s canon simply to erase Dick.

And before you all come with the Gar argument: Simply because the Gar-Slade and Dick-Slade dynamics came up around the same time does not mean they are the same. Gar and Roy are mostly tied to Slade through one person (Tara and Cheshire). Dick was initially tied to Slade through Grant (as were the other NTT) and then Joey, but their dynamic transcended that to something much more personal and the groundwork was laid by Wolfman himself when he made Slade point out how much Dick's capabilities remind him of his younger self.

The Slade-Dick dynamic is unique because it was allowed to transform and build-upon with each appearance (except for Dixon's). Enemies turning to frenemies then bitter enemies is not a story usually experienced like this in comics. It happens, but it happens as a backstory or under the same writer, not in real time.