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fanfic-obsessed · 1 year ago

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Ten Years in Two months

While the meat and potatoes of this idea comes a bit later, it does require some finangleing beforehand. Some of the beginning does feel a bit contrived, because it is. In order for the dominoes of the plot to fall right later, we do have to force them into shape now in a series of improbable actions.

Bear with me for a bit, we’ll get there.

There is not really a particular point this starts, save that it is after Padme becomes pregnant (though well before she realizes she is) but before the Umbara arc (or ignoring the Umbara Arc), for no particular reason other than I want Waxer there. A mission is assigned to the 212th to escort Padme Amidala and her retinue to a neutral world for negotiations with the Separatists. They are taking with them commander Ahsoka Tano (the in-world explanation being that she was on Coruscant catching up with course work and they would rendezvous with the 501st, who were on a campaign in that region).

On the way to this neutral world, from the perspective of the rest of the galaxy, the 212th in its entirety vanishes for two months.

From the perspective of the 212th they become trapped on an uncharted planet for 10 years.

For the rest of the galaxy those two months are enlightening into Anakin Skywalker's particular brand of instability. Without the tempering influence of the bonds to his Master and Padawan, compounded by the fact that his secret wife disappeared as well, Well…his attempts to find them could, in the best of lights, be described as unhinged. He did not fall in at this time, for he was given no reason to make that choice (and falling to the dark, into evil is very much a choice. One does not fall by accident, after all), but he made it very clear that the war, protecting innocents, the Republic, or even the lives of his own men meant nothing compared to finding Padme (occasionally he would remember to make it seem as though he was focusing on finding Obi Wan or Ahsoka, though he never quite remembered to include the rest of the 212th). His obsession presented itself in such a way that even Palpatine was reconsidering some of his plans (he still intended to break Anakin into Vader, but he was now inclined to let Padme-and maybe even Ahsoka; Obi Wan was always going to die-live on as a stabilizing influence to his ultimate apprentice).

He was swiftly removed from command of the 501st and had to be kept partially sedated for at least 6 of those 8 weeks.

With the 212th for the first few months, from their perspective, they tried to contact the rest of the fleet. Tried to contact anyone. Tried to escape from their orbit around this one planet, thankfully habitable and with an abundance of edible food. However, though they did not know it, the planet was out of sync with the rest of the galaxy.

Over the period of about two years they shifted from living mostly on the ships with just enough people on the surface of the planet to keep everyone fed to a more permanent settlement on the planet with a rotating skeleton crew up on ships to keep everything running.

Padme found out about her pregnancy pretty early on, and with it came the knowledge that her relationship with Anakin was not the secret she thought it was. Nor was the relationship forbidden like Anakin told her. The marriage was forbidden, because of the Oaths Anakin swore as part of the Jedi Order and how they conflicted with the traditional Nabooian Wedding vows (though she also finds out that the Jedi Order would have helped revise both sets of vows so they did not conflict). Even beyond her own misunderstandings of the Jedi, she started to see the many places where Anakin either deliberately misunderstood his own culture, or deliberately misled her.

In fact it became obvious within the first six months that every culture represented in the ships (The variety of cultures from the natborn admiralty, the Nabooian Delegation, The clones, and the Jedi) all had some misconceptions about all of the other cultures ranging from the humorously minor to massive misunderstandings (One of the minor misunderstandings is between the Jedi and the Clones on names and numbers. The Jedi believe that they are making sure that they are calling the clones what the clones want to be called instead of their designation. The clones think that the Jedi as a whole are uncomfortable with their designation AS names-Which yes but also no-so even though most of the clones prefer a name to their designation, even the few that want to use their designation are told by the other clones that the must choose a name to use around the Jedi).

Obi Wan takes over Ahsoka’s training and the gaps that Anakin had left become very obvious; the place where he taught her something that was outright wrong even more so. About three months in, Ahsoka tells Obi Wan about Anakin’s ‘training’ of being surrounded and fired upon by the 501st. One of the few things that Anakin was right about was that he Jedi would not understand, nor condone, that training. Ahsoka had not realized how disconnected from her own culture she had become in her short time with Anakin. How isolated he had made her from her people. Though she and Obi Wan were the only Jedi, she felt closer than ever to everything she had grown up with as he took on her tuition.

In month 8 Obi Wan, who was looked to as the leader, arranged for a series of times to address the misconceptions held by an for each culture present. When it became clear that they were cut off for the long haul, he helped the variety of people to start to live instead of just surviving. And at the beginning there were a number of natborns among them that were anti clones, or anti Jedi, just as there were many clones that were anti nat born. But with only about 1500 people in total (1300 clones, about 50 natborn officers and support staff, about 150 senatorial support staff) there were simply not enough people to support those kinds of prejudices. It is hard to say that the clones were not human when you listen to the stories of decommissioned batchmates during one of the remembrance ceremonies. Or hate the natborn lieutenant that got drunk and cried all over you about the pregnant wife they left behind.

The twins were born with a village of aunts and uncles, and though they are the oldest, they were not the only ones. Sache, one of Padme’s former handmaidens and part of her senatorial retinue, entered into a relationship with Waxer and Boil, having a child with them that was a year younger than the twins. Many relationships formed and broke apart during those years.

Ahsoka and Padme ended up co parenting the twins, with Padme being called Mom and Ahsoka being called Mom Ah. It was the twins who insisted on their names from their earliest ability to speak.

In year four Cody and Obi Wan get married. Though theirs is not the only relationship that develops, nor the only one with healthy communication, their relationship does highlight to Padme how unhealthy her relationship with Anakin actually was. (It should be noted that, although Anakin’s instability and actions were flashier, this is not Anakin abusing/coercing the poor innocent Padme. In this they are toxic together, both acted in unhealthy ways that compromised their own morals). Padme was able to see how Cody and Obi Wan did not use their love for each other as a bandage for deeper wounds. That CodyWan did not become all consuming; each man had friendships and hobbies and duties separate from each other (even with the friends they shared, they did not act as a single unit, inseparable from each other). The other relationships she saw only drove this point home.

At some point in those ten years she tells Obi Wan of what happened on Tatooine, just before the start of the war. And Obi Wan, eyes betraying his grief and horror at the massacre of the Tuskens asked her why she absolved Anakin of his crimes (By technicality, as a senator Padme did have the authority to absolve Anakin-so even if Tatooine becomes part of the Republic, and the crime is reported, Padme’s actions mean that Anakin cannot be tried under Republic Law). Padme cannot answer him.

Though it does take time, Padem is eventually able to meet Obi Wan’s eyes again after the revelation.

6 years in, Ahsoka and Padme realize that they have fallen in love. Driven by the Jedi teachings for healthy and open communication (though many cultures value open and honest communication, few need it in the same way as the Jedi who are all some degree of Empath), they talk about what was happening. Neither is sexually attracted to the other, but they do want to date each other. But Padme is married to Anakin. And it might have been six years, so they do not know if Anakin even still lived, and if did, he had likely moved on (both of which are reasonable assumptions) but being together without first speaking to Anakin felt too much like giving up the idea that they would find a way home. So they agreed to wait until they were ready to give up that idea.

They had not given up by the time that the 10 year mark rolled around.

In year 7 the chips begin to deteriorate. The material they were made up of were not meant for the extra years of use, plus the method Helix used to stop the accelerated aging (discovered within 5 months of actually having time) created an enzyme as a byproduct that had no effect on the clones, but accelerated the deterioration of the chips. The first three chips were removed after the clones involved complained of migraines. All the documentation in the computer banks (the archive of what was readily available, instead of what was stored on the galaxy’s version of the cloud) of the ships said the chips were to inhibit excess aggression. No one had any reason to not believe the documentation, not even with the realization that the chips were not in the right place for what they were supposed to do (the assumption is that the Kaminoans, for all their genetic know how, just do not understand near human neurology enough to have put it in the right place). Obi Wan met with Helix, the head medic, with Cody after the removal of those first chips. Obi Wan assumed that he did not know about the chips because he had not been on the council when the order was put in. Helix is able to confirm that all of the clones have these chips and what they are supposed to do (according to the literature) and that some were beginning to deteriorate. After it becomes clear that the removal will not hurt the clone, they make the decision to remove all of them. However, believing them to be behavioral modifiers (if incorrectly placed), and as they did not have the optimal equipment to decode them, they all left it at that and put the Chips into storage and basically forgot about it.

Just 15 days shy of the 10th anniversary of their arrival to the uncharted planet, whatever grip that was holding the ships bound to orbit the planet vanished (The planet was in sync with the rest of the galaxy- it is a window of time that is six hours long in the larger galaxy, or 15 days long on the planet) Still not able to raise communications to anyone outside of the planet’s orbit, not knowing how long they would have before they were stuck again, and fearing that they would be cut off from anyone left behind (no one had forgotten that the planet had not registered as there until they were trapped), everyone was loaded onto the ships along with all of their food stores and the 212th left the uncharted planet.

As soon as they hit the galaxy at large again, alarms began to shriek. Every system that communicated with the central systems (basically everything outside of life support) experienced a fatal error upon reconnecting with the galaxy’s central system. It takes 4 days to fix. They have to reset all of the internal clocks/calendars in their computer systems to a date and time two months and 3.5 days after they became trapped (the last 24 hours of that time was spent inputting random dates into the system).

NOTE: There is a very important reason for this. Computers are very black and white about some things, and communicating between computers is often validated on specific information to make sure that both systems are dealing with the same information at the same thing. Current Date/Time had to be validated for the purpose of navigation. Galactic/Stellar drift is very real, and in the mapped regions of the galaxy that drift is precisely calculated. It is impossible to keep a real time map of every object in the galaxy, instead there is a systematic ping that goes out at specified times (Twice per Galactic Standard year) remapping every object in the known galaxy and correcting the location in the centralized system. Then Navigation computers calculate how long it has been since the last ping to figure out where everything is and a safe route. That only works if the current date time matches the current date time of the centralized system exactly (some of those object movements, even objects large enough to damage the largest of ships, can be measured in microseconds).

No one realizes why this is an issue. The entirety of the 212th believe that 10 years have passed (born out by their time keepers, which had ticked along for ten years) and yet to the larger galaxy only two months have. They absently notice that by the time anything is working again the planet they were on had vanished.

A message is sent to Coruscant, to the Jedi temple, but it is a hesitant thing. Deliberately vague in details. Obi Wan has no idea what 10 years has done for or to the war effort. The response is almost immediate, a call from the Jedi council. The very first question out of Mace Windu’s mouth is a cranky sounding ‘Where in the Force have you been for the last two months?’ (Look Master Windu is absolutely ecstatic that they are safe and not dead, but he has spent the four days helping to keep Anakin contained-the sedation began to wear off faster now that he could feel Ahoska and Obi Wan in the Force again-, the last two months realizing that Obi Wan ran about a third of their side of the war, and had been in the middle of sleeping for the first time in weeks).

There is quite a bit of confusion as both Obi Wan and Mace were absolutely sure the other had lost it over how long the 212th had been gone (Obi Wan: we were trapped for ten years; Mace: Bullshit! You’ve been gone for 2 months). It is Ahsoka’s appearance that convinces Mace that something more is going on (he would not know the children, and Ahsoka is the only other one for whom 10 years-or 10 years and 5 months for the clones- would make a huge visible difference). Mace is able to convince Obi Wan that they really have only been gone two months and the 212th makes its way back to Coruscant, reeling over the disconnect (The Lieutenant who spent the last 10 years mourning over the missed moments with their wife and unborn child…hasn’t even missed the birth).

The mind healers who have been dealing with Anakin nearly weep in relief at the news that Padme Amidala is with the 212th and safe. They know that Anakin needs many much therapy still but they have hope he will actually pay attention now that his wife is back.

The 212th, now a community in a way that they had not been, returned to Coruscant. They do not split in the ways that they would have before (before relationships and children) and peer at the lives they had left behind that they no longer quite fit the shape of.

The lieutenant brings home their best friend (a clone who had not picked their name before the mission, but decided to go with 29, which they picked to reference the number of a decommissioned batchmate) to meet their wife, only for some of the wife’s family make an awful comment about flesh droids and being a pet (thankfully their wife was equally embarrassed by her brother’s behavior).

Obi Wan, Cody, Padme, and Ahsoka go to the Jedi temple, to the Jedi Council (the twins, like the rest of the children, were left aboard the Negotiator in the care of their extended family). They speak of the planet where they had been trapped and the lives they grew there.

Padme took the time to apologize to the Council, formally, for the violation of their beliefs that she and Anakin had perpetrated by marrying as they had. She could admit that while Anakin had not told her of any Jedi traditions for marriage, or really any traditions they might be violating by marrying, she had made no effort to check either.

As an afterthought Obi Wan told the Jedi Council about the chips deteriorating, but that they did not appear to be doing anything anyway (To which every other member went: “What chips?”). Upon being asked Obi Wan calls for Helix to get a chip or two out of the storage closet they had been forgotten in. Which was then promptly handed to people with specialized equipment for decoding bio mechanical chips.

After the latest round of sedation has worn off Padme, Obi Wan, and Ahsoka go to see Anakin. They are told that before Anakin can be released he needs to be assessed by three different mind healers. They go intending to tell Anakin of the twins. Padme also goes with the intent to test the waters about the possibility of separating (She does not know that her and Ahsoka dating would go anywhere, nor are either of them even thinking of it right now, but even leaving that aside Padme has realized that her and Anakin are not healthy together). Things do not go quite as intended.

At first Anakin is so happy to see all three of them, he exclaims over Ahsoka being so grown up (she is now 24, now older than Anakin). It rapidly becomes clear that Anakin expected he would be released immediately, now that they were back. There was a small blip, a frown and a strange heaviness when he realized that all three of them were backing the healers that he needed to be assessed. Anakin also did not like how close Ahsoka and Obi Wan were, oh before they vanished he would joke about Ahsoka being their shared padawan, but he preferred it when Obi Wan’s lessons unintentionally reinforced the idea that Ahsoka was better off with Anakin than any other Jedi.

There were a few moments when he could speak to Padme alone, and the way he spoke left Padme feeling cold. There was nothing overt but it all reinforced a possessiveness that Padme realized she did not want in her or her children's lives. They leave without telling Anakin about the children.

Padme tries six more times to go and talk to Anakin about separating. At best he acts like he does not hear or understand her words. At worst he starts ranting about Obi Wan trying to steal his wife and needing to be sedated.

Regretfully, and with the backing of both the Jedi and the 212th community, Padme starts the process to get a divorce. Nabooian traditions insist that a couple that wants to divorce must meet with a Nabooian marriage counselor first, to see if reconciliation is possible. Setting this up takes several months as, upon being informed of proceedings Anakin had a second breakdown. His connection to the Force was such that the Jedi needed to block the connection lest he become very destructive. Only the Force Blockers left him not coherent enough to attend the session with Counselor. In the end the Jdi built a special room just to block Anakin’s specific connection to the force for them to meet in. Traditionally the divorcing couple meets at least 5 times before permission is given to divorce. It took one meeting for the Counselor to grant Padme her divorce.

The 501st had not been assigned a new general by the time the 212th returned, and Ahsoka was almost ready for knighthood. She took command of the 501st for a total of 4 months, it was too uncomfortable and too much like she was replacing Anakin (made weirder by the fact she still wanted to date his soon to be ex wife and was helping to raise his children). In the end Obi Wan ended up taking direct command of the legion, with Cody taking the lead of the 212th. This also made everyone uncomfortable, thankfully the war ended three months after that (the revelation of what the chips did had the council contemplating finding the planet that 212th had been stranded on).

Palpatine had been indiscrete around someone who he had assumed would back his power play for an Empire. To be fair, in another world that family would have been high ranking imperial with very human centric tendencies.

Palpatine had not expected a Lieutenant of the Galactic Navy, member of the 212h or not, to whip out a slug thrower and shoot at a party when Palpatine had admitted to knowing about the slave chip in the clones' heads.

To be fair, neither did the Lieutenant.

#star wars #star wars the clone wars #fanfiction prompt #obi wan kenobi #star wars au #anakin skywalker #codywan #bamf obi wan #Anidala critical #sheev palpatine #Not for Anakin Fans #anakin critical #Order 66 did not happen #jedi order respected #jedi order

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starbeltconstellation · 3 months ago

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I don’t think they are bad and some survived order 66 Quinlan Vos was one of them. But I do believe they lost their way by the end of the clone wars because most lost their way or watered down their beliefs becoming to caught up in image and pandering to the senate (palps *cough*) even yoda said basically that a dark shroud surround them (Sith made) but they made themselves susceptible to it with arrogance, becoming inflexible, and a strange combo of attachment and detachment. Even mace windu was attached to the republic which is one of the reasons he was so defensive and disliked Anakin he saw him as a threat to his republic.

I’m not trying to hate on the Jedi just make sure that in discussing the Jedi we remember the good and bad. The Jedi did a lot of good, they made one of the longest major peace times the galaxy had ever seen, that’s 1000 years of peace time after ending the Sith war. And actually Luke skywalker, Ezra Bridger, Ahsoka (rebellion), and season 4 Kanan were prime examples of what the Jedi were originally. I just think when palpatine started pulling strings and corrupting everything to take power it made slow brewing Jedi problems 10x worse as some Jedi like Barriss Offee’s master mixed up avoiding negative attachment with being cold and callous because while a Jedi master should avoid “possessive” attachment especially in a way that would hold their student back they should have a good bond with them because emotional bonds are one of the pillars of trust.

-that’s my take, I’m not sure what you meant by no Jedi haters though. So if this crosses your line then I’m sorry I can see myself out cause I don’t want to start a conflict 😅

Hello, anon. 👋

Firstly, I just want to DEEPLY apologize for the long wait in my response. 😅🤦‍♀️ I try not to get behind on asks, but life has been crazy for me at the moment, and especially with longer asks like yours, I really want to take my time and give a good and in depth response.

Now, just right off the bat: I don’t mind discussing things. As long as it doesn’t get nasty and full of insults. So I’m not about to bite your head off.

In fact, I am going to take the time to use your ask to refute all of these critical/anti Jedi points, proving how most of it is Palpatine’s propaganda that the galactic citizens/SW fandom has grown to believe because it’s easier to have a big bad scapegoat (ie; the Jedi boogie man) than for galactic citizens to grapple with the fact that they themselves are also a part of the problem because THEY are the ones who vote in politicians in the Senate (who are a lot corrupt, except like a handful like Mon Mothma/Bail Organa/Riyo Chuchi/Padmé/etc. And even Padmé wasn’t a complete saint like a lot of fans think, since she purposely hid Anakin’s Tusken massacre just because she didn’t want to give up her new hot murder husband who was obsessively adoring over her/loved her), and THEY are the ones who also got the most complacent, are they not? After all… if the fandom blames the JEDI… why didn’t the CITIZENS clock anything wrong until suddenly an Empire was telling them to hand over all their freedoms or die?

It’s really easy to sit back and say what you would’ve done in the Jedi’s position, because the audience has more information than they do. What Dooku and Qui-Gon told them is the equivalent of being told they saw a unicorn (Sith) in the wild. It’s not that out there that there’d be some doubts from the Council, and people seem to forget that the Council STILL said they’d look into it. But they aren’t magic. They can’t just snap their fingers and see that Palpatine is the Sith Lord. Especially with the Darkness cloaking their Force senses. I think it’s kinda… gross? To blame them for something Palpatine was causing (the cloaking Darkness) that was literally part of the plan to genocide them. Just a thought, but maybe that should be Palpatine’s and Anakin’s fault, where it belongs? Lol. Sorry if I sound a little snippy, it’s just this is a tired and running around in circles argument (although I do think your ask is a genuine one, which is why I’m taking the time to answer it and perhaps if not change YOUR mind, then change someone else’s that might read this. I’m trying to reach more across the aisle here, because both sides I’ll admit have moments where they only want to be defensive and not explain their positions).

It’s funny how people always point out that the Jedi missed brewing corruption (they totally knew about it and tried to fight against it how they could. But just like in real life, I’m unsure what people expect from them. To strut into the Senate and threaten/murder the politicians into submission? Because ya know… that was kinda the red flag Anakin gave off with that “They should be made to!” line to Padmé. Just saying. 🤷‍♀️ Just like anyone, Jedi know the politicians of the Republic are slowly being corrupt (just like MOST politicians in real life, and you don't see everyone condemning all US citizens because we don't go clean them out like assassins or something), but there isn't anything they can do about that unless you expect them to go in and wave their lightsabers around to threaten the politicians into submission. As if Palpatine wouldn't immediately twist that into his favor to say they were "trying to take over the Republic". (And oh wait—he did that in the movies! Funny how that works, huh?)

What I think is interesting about you and about a lot of Jedi fans (including LH, who is the writer of The Acolyte) is that you THINK you’re being “fair” to the Jedi, but you’re kinda… not? 🤷‍♀️😅 And I’m not saying that as an insult. I’m saying it because it’s true.

Let me explain: There are rabid anti Jedi fans known as the infamous Karen Travis’s who is basically a rapid and foaming at the mouth Jedi anti who believes they “got what was coming to them.🤢🥶” LH on the other hand (at least in HER head), views herself as Jedi CRITICAL (which is something you clearly view yourself as as well. And there’s nothing wrong with being Jedi critical. The problem is that a lot of times this “criticism” becomes condescending, whether intentional or not, despite maybe the person’s best intentions). And while there is a little bit of a difference there, it’s not as stark a line as fans would try to convince us pro Jedi’s to believe.

As I mentioned to someone else in my other ask: there are plenty of fair criticisms about the Jedi that I can acknowledge: the Shimi thing, for one, which is I think just a bad symptom of GL’s writing being more “metaphorical” than literal. Shimi HAS to stay on Tatooine because Anakin eventually HAS to murder the Tuskens in cold blood so GL can tell the story he wants to tell of how Anakin can’t let go, and so the Jedi are never given the opportunity to do what I truly BELIEVE they would’ve done, which is go back and free her, at least for the peace of mind of one of their newest initiate. The plot literally physically bars them from doing so.

And even THIS is not without its flaws, because they would ONLY have wiggle room to free Shimi after the heat of TPM problems had died down where they had time to do so… while walking past/avoiding eye contact with all of Shimi’s slave neighbors, because as specified before—The Jedi have no jurisdiction in the Outer Rim, and you bet your ass if they freed all those slaves and started a war with the Hutts with their little 10,000 strong army, the Republic would take one look and go “Lol, good luck with that,” and not help them at all, which would be basically suicide for the Order to try and accomplish on abolishment of slavery on the Outer Rim all on their own in the TRILLIONS of people in the galaxy. They do not have the MAN POWER for that. Not without the Senate army/clones. So how can they be blamed for this? WHY are one of the “space minorities” of the galaxy being blamed for something that should be the POLITICIANS’S job? Can you not see the double standard here? Genuinely asking, anon, because it’s always baffled me.

People want the Jedi to do something about it? Get on the Senate’s ass about it then—the REAL people who are responsible for all of the shit going wrong in the Outer Rim while they line their pockets and kiss up to clueless galactic citizens for votes come election time. THEY are the ones that should be responsible for the problems of an ENTIRE galaxy—not a small little minority group (which I’ve already come to realize that the Jedi are. They are a culture/religion/family, and 10,000 is but a drop in the ocean of the galaxy. They are so small in the grand scheme of things that it’s SCARY when considering how easy it was for Palpatine to lead them to almost total annihilation) that try and try and TRY as hard as they can, which is apparently somehow NEVER enough, for the galactic citizens AND the SW fandom itself.

And why is that? Why is it so HARD for SW fandom to relate to them? Why does LH (who I’m sure in her head BELIEVES she’s as progressive as they come, just as I genuinely believe you had the best intentions when reaching across the aisle to send me this ask, but at the end of the day still comes across frankly exhausting and a little condescending when you pick out the “good Jedi blorbos” who are ones that deserve to live and don’t have to be dehumanized as “emotionless/cold/callous” like you just did with Luminara just because Luminara chose to grieve in a way you and Anakin and many other rabid Anakin fans/anti Jedi’s view as lesser than) view the Jedi as some type of “space cops” who are “oppressing 🙄” the Sith as a representation of her religious trauma that she is clearly projecting onto them as something completely separate than what the Jedi Culture actually is? Why does she view them as “emotionally repressed” and “almost catholic-like”, and views the fucking SITH (literal SPACE NAZIS 😭🤦‍♀️) as a representation for her persecution as a gay woman?

It’s because—just like MOST SW fans in the US—she cannot fathom a culture outside of the lens of western philosophy. In her mind, the Jedi aren’t a “real 🙄🤢” family. In HER mind, the Jedi aren’t necessarily evil, but she still believes those “poor little culty Jedi 😔💔🙄” didn’t see they were ‘sewing their own destruction’. (Which is blaming them. It’s BLAMING the victims of genocide, and it’s to this day the most disgusting thing I will always remember about the show’s “your actions will cause the destruction of every Jedi in the galaxy” quote that made Twitter go wild with genocide apologia galore).

I’m not gonna repeat everything in the post I made to the other anon (this ask response is long enough already), but I’ll link it here in case you want to read it, because I do have some examples screenshotted of certain SW fandom dehumanizing the Jedi and showing genocide apologia, which proves that pro Jedi’s critique/defensiveness for the Jedi Order and their culture isn’t an overreaction or without basis, because it proves that blaming the Jedi for their own genocide is the NORM, even if people won’t admit so outright (still can’t believe The Acolyte just outright SAID it. I’m not gonna rub fans’s of the show’s faces in it, but because of that line alone, I’m SO glad that show was cancelled. Anti Jedi propaganda is already bad enough).

Also, I’m sorry to tell you this, anon, but the Mace Windu thing is just straight up wrong. I have never understood this Mace thing with the fandom. People act like Mace was personally bullying Anakin every damn day. Mace didn’t even hate Anakin. Just because Mace was a little stern with Anakin and didn't worship the ground he walked on didn't mean he hated/disliked him/was jealous of him (a frankly childish notion, in my opinion). They both just had different views over how to be a Jedi and in battle strategies during the war. It was never personal with Mace. Anakin MADE it personal, because he always took not being told "yes" personally, like it was a slight against him. He didn’t see Anakin as a threat to the Republic until literally the last free day of democracy when he looked at him and saw a giant shatterpoint all around Anakin. I think that would give any Jedi pause. Lol.

Mace was a fine Jedi who treated Anakin just fine. Just because he didn’t worship the ground Anakin walked on or treated him like God’s gift doesn’t mean that Mace was a bad person or Anakin was a “poor little guy” getting bullied by him. The thing with Mace refusing Anakin a seat on the Council is overblown. Frankly: Anakin didn’t DESERVE a seat on the Council. He might’ve been a powerful Jedi, but he was still hot headed and reckless and still had a lot to learn. And his temper tantrum when he didn’t get his way did him no favors either (look, I LOVE Anakin, but I’m not gonna be delusional about his faults, okay? Most of his problems were caused because he built them up out of thin air. He built up this rivalry with Mace in his head, when Mace was busy with his own life. Mace was not “out to get Anakin” or something. That’s—as kindly as I can say—something children tell themselves when angry at parents who tell them “no”, which Mace did a lot with Anakin). And I’m not gonna lie, anon. People have always seemed extra hard on Mace specifically, and while it might not be all of it, I think there’s a part of racism mixed in there with a proud black Jedi that isn’t afraid to stand up to the white and emo and hot future serial killer in the making (my hot Anakin! 🥰🥰😂). I’m not saying YOU specifically are being racist, but I’m just pointing out something that I’ve always felt reeked around the fandom opinion of Mace (more from the SW YouTube dudebro side of the fandom, but still).

I’m not gonna go and explain a play by play of all my points, because I got in a argument/discussion with someone on YouTube the other day (even though I know it’s bad for my blood pressure 😬😤😂), and I feel like the points I made there are perfect as a main response for this ask, so I’m going to place the screenshots here. This whole online debate came about when I was watching a SW lore video on Leia visiting Anakin’s grave after the ROTJ celebration and telling him she doesn’t forgive him, and one of the commentators called her a “brat”, which pissed me off. Lol. But anyway, we’ve been going back and forth the past few days, and I’ve basically made a mini pro Jedi manifesto, so I think all of the screenshots will answer most of your questions and also refute them to show how they are inaccurate and more of a fandom opinion that’s only come about because fans like Anakin and want to twist themselves into knots to blame everyone for his problems but him.

Here are all of the online person’s screenshots: you’ll notice how eventually he tries to justify Anakin killing the younglings as a “mercy”. 🥶🥶🤢 Yikes.

Here are my responses:

Damn. Apparently there’s a screenshot limit. 😭 I’ll copy paste the rest:

Leia had every right to come and get closure if she needed to. Anakin personally tortured her himself after all. She has a personal stake in this through being tortured by their own FATHER that Luke doesn't have. Whether she wanted to go to make sure the person she viewed as a monster was dead, or to try and get some closure from what Luke had told her, it was within her rights to do so. She understood EVERYTHING perfectly. She knew who Anakin had been for years before the last five minutes of his death, and that was someone who'd terrorized the galaxy.

Lol, Anakin wasn't "fulfilling the will of The Force" as his reign on the Dark Side for 20 something years. He fulfilled the will of the Force when he finally got off his ass and killed Palpatine to end the last of the Sith. It's a copout to pretend any of his other actions were anything but his own choice, otherwise his 'redemption' means squat. She doesn't owe him anything just because he stopped the horror by killing Palpatine. It's the LEAST he could've done. You seem to believe that one action somehow should buy Anakin forgiveness in the eyes of all of his victims, and if they don't forgive him, then they're "brats" or something. Redemption doesn't work like that. You don't do the right thing because you'll get something out of it. You do it to be selfless and because it's simply the right thing to do. And I can tell you that Anakin would probably disagree with your opinion on Leia being a "brat" himself once he was back on the Light Side, because the whole point is that he'd be REPENTANT. Not being arrogant and expecting blind forgiveness for things that are quite frankly unforgivable.

Luke's forgiveness is a GIFT. It is NOT something that has to be the norm, and Leia is no less because she chooses not to forgive Anakin. She has every right to never view him as her father till her dying days.

Anakin had EVERYTHING to do with the explosion of Alderaan. This BS certain fans spout of "that was Tarkin" is nonsense. Anakin had agency. He could've tried to stop Tarkin or tried to leave the Empire way before that moment. Just because it was hard, he chose not to. EVERYONE on board the Death Star that weren't prisoners are responsible for the destruction of Alderaan. And yes, that includes Anakin. As I said before, Tarkin would only be given the highest sentence in court because he chose to order the planet destroyed. But Anakin would still be charged right along with him in a court of law. Just because Anakin had a traumatic life, doesn't excuse the things he's done. That's like saying a school shooter/serial killer has no agency over killing their victims just because they had a “hard life.” It’s a frankly illogical argument.

Anakin as 'Vader' could've choked Tarkin out right there. Who's gonna stop him? He's survived dozens of enemies in the comics. Him not having "authority" is a copout. Anakin was given plenty of authority in the Empire. He was just still Palpatine's lapdog at the end of the day. Hell—he could've grew a spine and left the Empire years BEFORE that moment. He does not get a free pass for "following orders".

Lol, Anakin does NOT have borderline personality disorder. That’s a fanon theory. That is NOT actually canon and George never said that. GL says Anakin fell because of his greed for power to never feel weak like he did as a child and because he was afraid to let go. The Jedi didn't fail him. He failed THEM. He's the one who fucking genocided them after all. Their entire culture is literally mental empathy because they're space wizards. There were times when Yoda and Obi-Wan all but BEG Anakin to open his mouth and say what's wrong, and he either refuses or is so vague that there's no way to glean what his main problem is (when Anakin talks to Yoda about Padmé and won't just ADMIT it's about Padmé). People can't help you if you don't meet them halfway. Anakin refused to do that. That's on him. Not on any of his victims. And even if he DID have borderline personality disorder (which is just a fanon theory), he'd STILL be responsible for his actions. It's amazing how much fans blame everyone else under the sun than the man who choked his wife. Lol.

I don't think Anakin is emotionless or incapable of care or goodness. That's the whole point of Luke, after all. I simply deny not giving him the agency to make his own decisions. He WAS a monster. What else do you call killing little kids who beg for your help? But the point of Luke is that Anakin ALWAYS had the opportunity to turn from his actions and be better. He just didn't find the spine until ROTJ. And that's great! He turned back to the light and his soul found salvation. But he is NOT redeemed in the eyes of anyone but Luke. It's laughable to think otherwise or that he wouldn't have been executed if he'd survived. And it's illogical to blame his victims and call them "brats" just because they won't forgive someone who was once basically space Hitler.

Despite what you may think, I love Anakin's character and the tragedy of him. I love that he found salvation in the end. But I DESPISE treating him like a child who didn't know what he was doing. He knew. He was selfish for twenty years. LUKE is who taught him how to be selfless. Everything else is on him. You can't call him the greatest 'redemption' of all time and then blame everyone else for his actions.

Because then what is there to redeem?

Nothing.

You can't have both. Pick one. 🤷‍♀️

What does it matter that Anakin as 'Vader' knew that Palpatine wouldn't praise Tarkin for such a cruel and useless thing in destroying a planet just to look a little tough? That doesn't mean shit. Just because Tarkin eventually gets what was coming to him, doesn't mean that Anakin couldn't have sped up Tarkin's demise right there. Good actions don't work like that: "Oh, it didn't really matter that he didn't try to save Alderaan! Because in the end Tarkin gets his karma!" (Anakin gets his karma too, by the way. You could argue from his burns or the fact that the only way he can 'redeem' himself is through dying by killing Palpatine).

I'm not sure what argument your making on if Anakin could've "talked" Tarkin into another way to get Leia to talk to betray the Rebels. I'm arguing that if he—or YOU—expected Leia's "forgiveness", then it implies there should've been some level where he could've done something different. I'm arguing he could've left the Empire years earlier if he'd grown a spine, or he could've Force choked Tarkin out right there and got him and Leia out of there somehow. Who's gonna stop him? No lowly soldier on board the Death Star could stand in his way. Palpatine would be miles away at that point.

He could've done something different. Fans just argue he was "helpless" in the sense that they don't want Anakin to be selfless to give anything up. The excuse that he was "stuck" and "had nothing left" is BS. Deep down, Anakin knows if he found Obi-Wan and repented that Obi-Wan would take him back. There's a whole arc about it in a comic when he's trying to bleed a Kyber Krystal. He just doesn't do it because he's too depressed and selfish to admit he screwed up his own life. He pretended for 20 years everyone betrayed him, when really it was the other way around, and that was too horrific to contemplate, so he pretended he was another person, when clearly he's still the same guy, only horrifically injured under the mask. He can only admit the truth after Luke offers him blind forgiveness.

It doesn't really matter that psychologists have "diagnosed" Anakin. He isn't a real person. He's a character that was written with a narrative purpose by GL. And GL was clear when he says the reasons Anakin does what he does is because he's greedy for power to not feel weak again and also because he's too afraid to let go. The writer of the character knows better actually. Isn't that what SW fans always say with GL?

Jedi are literally space Buddhists that GL describes as "empathetic space monks." Part of their culture is literally to be connected to all life around them. It's laughable to say they wouldn't understand a "simple person" in the galaxy. That's literally what they're taught to do in the Temple. Before the war, they were Advisors/ mediators.

Anakin had a fondness for Qui-Gon, but he did trust Obi-Wan. Maybe not enough to mention Padmé (he didn't trust ANYONE with that except apparently Rex, and l'm almost certain Rex found out on accident, because Anakin definitely doesn't care about Rex as much as he did Ahsoka), but he DID trust him. And he cared for Obi-Wan greatly. Just not more than his own wants and needs apparently. But that's true when it comes to Anakin choosing himself over all of his friends and family at the end of ROTS. The Jedi would've helped Anakin if he'd just ASKED without being so damn vague. Maybe they wouldn't have let him stay in the Order, but it's not like he'd be kicked out the door immediately. But Anakin wanted his cake and to eat it too, so he didn't tell him about his wife because he wanted to keep the power of being a Jedi. And guess what? The Jedi don't OWE one man the power to change their entire culture just for him.

There isn't anything wrong with having a set of rules for beliefs. Priests can't marry either. That doesn't make them “emotionless robots” that are “incapable of understanding human emotion” or understanding a struggling man's thoughts. As I said before, the Jedi cannot help Anakin if he doesn't ASK. You cannot condemn them in one breath for not helping him, while at the same time saying that it's fine Anakin didn't explain his problems with them, because they should've just been able to read his mind. It's hypocritical.

Obi-Wan had no other options but to follow Padmé to find Anakin. He NEEDED to find Anakin, because Anakin was fucking dangerous at that point in time, and had just helped genocide an entire culture. Not exactly father/husband material at that point. And even then, in the movies Obi-Wan doesn't reveal himself until it's clear Anakin isn't going to listen to Padmé. It's ludicrous to think if Padme kept arguing with Anakin that Anakin still wouldn't have strangled her in anger in that moment. Again, it appears somehow you're trying to put off this transgression he's committed on someone else again, and I cannot fathom why. It makes him far less interesting that way if he was just a "poor guy" who couldn't control himself.

What I find interesting is you can admit that Anakin doesn't have the information the audience does, which is why he thinks Palpatine is kind and is his friend, but you show no grace towards the Jedi, calling them "arrogant" for not realizing the Sith had slowly popped back up, as if they are somehow supposed to have the audience's information. The truth is that they don't.

Just like anyone, they know the politicians of the Republic are slowly being corrupt (just like MOST politicians in real life, and you don't see everyone condemning all US citizens because we don't go clean them out like assassins or something), but there isn't anything they can do about that unless you expect them to go in and wave their lightsabers around to threaten the politicians into submission. As if Palpatine wouldn't immediately twist that into his favor to say they were "trying to take over the Republic". (And oh wait—he did that in the movies! 🤷‍♀️ Funny how that works, huh?)

It doesn't matter if Anakin didn't "want" to kill kids/the Tuskens/betray Mace and his Jedi friends. What does that matter? What does it matter if he felt bad while doing it if he still DOES it? You wouldn't say a school shooter wasn't responsible for their actions just because they were sobbing the whole time they went around slaughtering everyone in the school. Anakin's responsible for his own actions, and just because he might feel "bad" doesn't let him off the hook. Even when he was masquerading as 'Vader.' Who cares if he was miserable 24/7? l’ll tell you his victims sure didn't when he decapitated them with his lightsaber or snapped their spines.

I'm not arguing about the people that forgave Anakin. I'm arguing over condemning people as "brats" that don't. (I personally think it's a copout to have Leia forgive him after reading some diary, so l'm glad at the least apparently new canon has her taking her entire life to get there). My point is there is nothing that makes Anakin's victims any less if they choose not to forgive him, because forgiveness is a GIFT. It isn't something you're owed. It's funny fans keep pretending he's owed that while condemning all of the Jedi as "arrogant", because I can't think of anything more arrogant than a man who was formerly one of the worst monsters in the galaxy thinking he's "owed" forgiveness. And just as I mentioned before, the Anakin after he came back to the Light wouldn't even agree with such a notion. He may ASK. But he wouldn't call Leia a "brat" for it. It's ridiculous to think that after the horror he'd personally committed to her.

I don't really care what your thoughts are on "Darth Mouse" as that's not what this conversation is about. GL describes Palpatine as the Devil, which is why Anakin can be turned back to the Light and Palpatine can't. But there is NO DOUBT that Anakin as 'Darth Vader' is seen as 'space Hitler' throughout internet culture (the Empire/the Sith is LITERALLY based off of Nazis). If you'd take a moment to google it you would see it's already a huge staple of internet culture. That doesn't make him emotionless or without goodness (he saved Luke, after all), but it IS still true. I don't see what's so hard about acknowledging his atrocities. He was a cruel and horrible monster for most of his life, and it only makes Luke's actions all the more miraculous when he somehow gets through to Anakin and makes him consider a heel face turn in the final hour.

Lol, honestly I also think you're a pretty strange person calling one of Anakin's torture victims a "brat" just because she didn't forgive him like dear saintly Luke. There is no shame in being kind like Luke (it helped him win after all), but there is NOTHING that makes Leia a bad person for not forgiving Anakin. I think you don't seem to contemplate just how BAD that is. Her FATHER tortured her for apparently HOURS. We have no idea just what he said and did to her during this time. He could've taunted her, for all we know. And I know, I know, you might say "He didn't know she was his daughter! 🤪🤪 " But that's not the POINT. The point is how he was cruel, and only seemed care when he realized she was his flesh and blood. Anakin's lucky Leia didn't spit on his grave. Because she WASN'T consumed by her anger to the point it was unhealthy. She just didn't forgive him and never viewed him as her father as long as she lived (because BAIL ORGANA was her father in all but blood). And that is within her rights. As I keep stating, Anakin is not OWED anything. His actions at the end of ROTJ are the LEAST he can do. He should be GRATEFUL to the opportunity Luke gave him and how Obi-Wan and Yoda were saintly enough to forgive him and help him become a Force ghost, because he quite frankly didn't deserve it. But salvation isn't always about what people deserve. Just like forgiveness, it's a gift. Anakin received a gift from Luke and Obi-Wan—but he is NOT owed it from Leia. And she isn't a "brat" for not giving it to him. It is important to stick to one's beliefs and principles. Leia stuck by hers. That takes courage and strength. She loved Luke but never agreed with him about Anakin.

And I also never called Anakin as 'Vader' a maniac. I called him basically a monster. Because he WAS. He helped kill thousands of people for Palpatine on the regular and continued to help genocide Jedi over the years, while ALSO still killing more kids over the years a handful of times too, even if he usually tried to avoid it (the Kenobi Show when he purposely snapped a kid's neck in front of his mother and dragged him through the street like garbage). Ironically, the more you learn and read about Anakin's atrocities, the more Luke's reaction becomes downright insane (while still saintly/miraculous), because NOBODY else (especially in real life!) would think someone like that had a heart deep down with a sliver of care left. That's what makes it miraculous Luke got through to him.

Lol, you cannot seriously be arguing that the maintenance workers on board the Death Star were "poor little guys." I don't know if you're aware of this, but even though there were probably volunteers, on the other hand, usually half the time in the military soldiers are ASSIGNED certain things like "mopping the floors" or "latrine duty" personally—so those people STILL were probably Empire officers. And even if they weren't, they still chose to be on the abomination known as the Death Star. Their sentence may be the lightest, but unless they were put there against their will they too would ALSO be charged. And also—with your argument—you're calling Luke's actions at the end of the Original Trilogy as a genocidal act or something, when really it was a necessary act to take out a planet destroying death machine. It's amazing how certain fans can try to twist things around to try and blame the heroes for something that is the villain's fault.

Here we go again with the excuses of "if only Mace wasn't mean to poor little Anakin" then Anakin wouldn't have had to murder everyone. Lol, is Anakin incapable of cognitive thinking? Because I promise you that if I was Ahsoka and heard that Anakin's reasoning for trying to kill me at one point in Rebels and betraying all of his friends is because a few people were "mean to him" I would just be pissed off at the gall of him to not take responsibility for his own actions. Even if a few people WERE mean to Anakin, that still doesn't give him the right to go on a murderous rampage. All his actions are still on him. That's like saying a school shooter is justified in his actions just because he was bullied. You calling Anakin a "Trojan horse" as if he planned any of that and wasn't just riding by the seat of his pants doesn't really make sense. Anakin didn't plan anything, and if you're arguing that BS theory that Anakin "balanced" the Force by genociding the Light Side to have it be even with the Dark Side (not true anyway since there were still more Light Siders than Dark Siders), then I am sad to say that you are objectively wrong. 🤷‍♀️

There is no way that "genocide is good, actually!" is the main theme GL had for a children's Trilogy. Anakin completed the prophecy when he finally got off his ass to kill Palpatine. He could've done that in Palpatine's office, or years down the line—either way, the outcome to complete the prophecy is the same: the eradication of the Sith. No more. No less.

Quite frankly, I think it's pretty gross to blame a culture for their own genocide, so the galactic community isn't doing itself any favors at that point anyway (including the SW community. It's always been a baffling fandom opinion to me). And despite what you and other fans may believe—the Jedi shouldn't have to CHANGE their entire culture/way of life for the sake of one man (Anakin) OR the galaxy's inhabitants who don't even TRY to understand them anyway (funny how Jedi are blamed for not understanding citizens, but what citizens try to understand them?).

They are not obligated to change their culture just for the right not to be murdered by a genocidal man on a temper tantrum.

Yeah, it's not surprising there were some among the population who "rejoiced" the fall of the Order. The war affected people's livelihoods and lives, and people get REAL greedy real fast when their day to day lives are affected by something. So yeah, it's no wonder they listened to Palpatine's propaganda to make the Jedi their scapegoat. Still pretty gross and disgusting, of course, but I can see how it came to be that way. Pretty ironic how people seemed to eventually miss the Jedi when they were gone, huh? It's not so fun dealing with an enemy (The Empire) when no space monk is standing protectively in front of you with a laser sword.

You DO know it's canon there were only 10,000 Jedi (not counting younglings and retired Masters) in a galaxy of TRILLIONS, right? It's illogical to expect them to be able to single handedly end slavery throughout the galaxy (especially in the Outer Rim where the Senate won't help them), or to expect them to be able to solve every damn problem in the universe like poverty (the lower levels of Coruscant). They helped people when they could. I don't know how, but you've seemed to have forgotten (just like most fans) that the Jedi ALWAYS tried to help. Even to the very end of their lives. It only makes it more gross to blame them for their own genocide. Lol, Luke barely knew shit about them except what he managed to scrounge up that hadn't been purged by the Empire (and a lot of that is from Legends authors, who didn't particularly like the Jedi anyway, so of course they'd write it like that and not as GL's vision of them being the heroes). The clones were treated terribly, and the Jedi did everything they could to make their lives easier (unless you'd prefer they sit on their asses out of the war to leave the clones under the command of people like Tarkin who didn't give a shit about them?), and it's illogical to blame them for the clones's plight. The SENATE are the corrupt ones and it's THEIR job to fix poverty and slavery and give the clones their rights. THEY are the actual villains of the prequels (besides the Sith), which is exactly what GL wanted to present to show the moral decay of democracy. And yet somehow people missed that and thought he was saying—"No, actually, it's the genocide victims who are wrong, guys!" when that couldn't be farther from accurate.

Dear LORD, here we go again with the excuses for Anakin's actions. Anakin "couldn't trust" Obi-Wan because of something kinda snippy/mean that Obi-Wan said when he was a TEENAGER?(The “pathetic life form/he’s dangerous line”, which he said when he was jealous/also—again—a teenager). Wow, way to hold a grudge. Lol. Doesn't that go against your whole argument about "forgiveness?" Didn't Obi-Wan's following actions towards Anakin then on in treating him like a brother show NOTHING about his care for him? Come on now. Let's be serious.

Why the hell WOULDN'T Obi-Wan go after Anakin? As stated beforehand, Anakin was DANGEROUS at that point, and needed to be put down. Anakin went against his fate to destroy the Sith, which put the prophecy on hold for a bit, so yeah, there was a "plan", which is why he lived, but that doesn't mean he wasn't dangerous and still didn't deserve to die at that point in time. He'd just killed kids like animals hours earlier. Again: not exactly husband/father material anymore.

Again, I feel like the implication here is that you're hinting that everyone misinterpreted the prophecy and that Anakin's fate was to bring "balance" by becoming a genocidal monster and "evening the score", and I am sad to say that you are objectively wrong. 🤷‍♀️ It's not accurate to state GL's original intent to a children's trilogy is that genocide to "even the score" was the correct answer. As stated again: Anakin completed the prophecy when he destroyed the Sith (ie; him and Palpatine). Full stop.

Hmmmm, you're doing a whole lot of speculation on how Leia "might" react if she was put in Anakin's situation, but not actually taking into account how everyone makes their own decisions and people can react differently to things at the end of the day. This just feels like another way you're trying to excuse Anakin's actions and condemn Leia for her bitterness towards Anakin just because: "Oh, if only that brat went what he went through! 🤪 " And such an argument—in the nicest way I can think possible—feels like the platitudes children tell themselves when angry at their parents. ALL of your and rabid Anakin fans's arguments are, because it all boils down to: "It wasn't HIS Fault! It was THIS person's! Because they were MEAN to him and he got BULLIED! And all his friends didn't understand him (even when it's obvious they reached out plenty of times and tried)!" It's just a very tired and frankly going in circles argument. You keep bringing up all these external factors as if the Jedi didn't try at all to offer Anakin coping mechanisms (Yoda literally offered them, and his advice—whether you or others want to admit it or not—makes sense. In war, you sometimes have to be prepared you might lose someone, and with the vague knowledge Anakin gave him, I'm pretty sure Yoda thought Anakin was talking about Obi-Wan. If Yoda knew it was about Padmé, no shit he'd probably have different advice). Anakin's life was not horrible at the Temple. He had a horrible childhood and that would fuck anyone's head up and leave a scar, but once at the Temple he was offered a whole range of different options to receive help. The only difference here is that you just don't AGREE with the Jedi's beliefs in how they go about helping people control their emotions so they don't lash out at people.

Maybe a few people (kids) at the Temple said a few things to Anakin that could be bullying (and I've only seen ONE comic related to that), but it's ridiculous to assume that the entire Jedi Order hated him. It's illogical to think that, and it's just like the childish notion fans have that Mace (who you call a "motherfucker" for... again, what? Treating Anakin like everyone else and not God's gift?) hated or was jealous of Anakin just because he didn't tell him "yes" all the time.

The point is, Anakin's life was fine at the Temple. Maybe he got a little isolated and lonely, but it's not like people didn't reach out. Anakin just had trouble reaching back. And all of those excuses don't let him off the hook for his genocidal actions, which you still seem to be twisting yourself into knots to try and do. THAT is childish. Not Leia judging Anakin for who he was when she had the misfortune of being tortured by him. You're plain lying to yourself if you think you wouldn't react just like Leia in real life. Most people are not gonna be wondering to themselves why the "poor little serial killer" did what he did to their family.

Just as stated before, Anakin honestly didn't deserve shit at the end of his life.

He'd betrayed everyone he'd ever known and thrown them all away (Rex, Ahsoka, Obi-Wan, Padmé, the Jedi/501st, R2, etc) like complete garbage. He helped genocide the Jedi—the very Order that took him in from slavery—and then spent those next 20 years hunting them down like animals, while also in his free time killing whoever Palpatine pointed him to like a lapdog just because he was depressed and pissed he'd screwed up his own life. He'd murdered thousands of kids at that point (literally monstrous and unforgivable for most people. Certainly me. Which only makes Luke's forgiveness more meaningful) and there is a comic where he hunted down a Jedi just for the sheer purpose of ripping his youngling out of the man's arms so he could let Palpatine turn the baby into an Inquisitor.

I am sure there are compilations on YouTube of all the people Anakin killed and the people he'd tortured or made jokes at while he smirked over their bodies. Come back and watch those and then tell me again he "deserved" to find peace. Lol, Anakin didn't deserve shit.

And I know that me saying that will probably make you think I hate his character. I don't. Anakin's character is very dear to me and I'm GLAD he found peace at the end of his life. I'm just under no delusions that he was "redeemed" in any sense of the word that wasn't in Luke's eyes alone or that Anakin actually "deserved" peace, when it should be completely obvious he deserved to be condemned to the farthest pits of Hell. As I keep repeating again and again: Anakin's 'redemption' and forgiveness are GIFTS. It's not something he is owed or something he even deserves. It's something he's given from the people around him who are quite frankly better people than he ever was in his entire life. Luke taught him how to be selfless at the end of his life. Because of his trauma as a slave, Anakin never wanted to do that beforehand from the fear of being weak again, no matter how many tried to help. But Luke did, and he succeeded with getting through to Anakin and making him finally get off his ass to make the right choice.

Again, The Force may have a "plan" but that doesn't mean people don't have free will. Otherwise, they'd all just be mindless puppets walking around spouting nonsense. That's just another copout to try and excuse Anakin's genocidal actions and say it wasn't his fault because it was his "fate". It wasn't. His fate was to destroy the Sith (and NOTHING else, despite what you apparently believe about a BS argument that I admit is common in fanon that Anakin "evening the playing field" was his destiny or something). He tripped and dragged his heels on that for twenty years before finally completing the prophecy in the final hour before his death. No more, no less.

It's childish to not take responsibility for your actions. It's why even though I love his character l'm not gonna treat Anakin like he was a "poor little guy" who didn't have a brain. He had options and a support system (Obi-Wan/Ahsoka/Padmé/Rex/R2/etc) he could've reached out to if he really wanted to. But he didn't because he just wanted to be told he was right. That's on him and no one else, as I keep saying over and over, despite how many excuses for him you try to bring up. I will repeat again: you give Anakin a lot of grace, but apparently none to Leia herself. Why is that? It feels pretty hypocritical. It also feels pretty hypocritical to judge and blame the Jedi in one breath saying they "lost their way (incorrect)", while in another breath embracing their very own beliefs on love and forgiveness. So, which is it? Do you think the Jedi had a wisdom and empathy for forgiveness, or do you think they "lost their way?" You can't have both and pick and choose based off how you want to excuse and justify Anakin's behavior.

Ahhhh, and THERE it is. See, I knew this gross argument (that I admit is a common fandom opinion) was hiding in there somewhere! I'm honestly not going to give this opinion much time, because at the end of the day you and everyone else who believe it are objectively wrong. 🤷‍♀️ You wanna know how I know that? Because it's genocide apologia. And at the end of the day, when you say the whole purpose GL made for Anakin's story and the theme of SW is that "genocide is good actually!", all I have to do to refute that is to remind you and others that this is a CHILDREN'S trilogy and from the words of GL himself; SW's main theme is about hope.

So because of that, this gross "theory" is shown for what it is: immoral, gross and just plain wrong genocide apologia. 🤷‍♀️ It's also just wrong in general, because Anakin killed all the Sith at the end of the Original Trilogy, and it's now canon more than two Light Siders were still alive at the time, so that would be "uneven scales" which goes against this immoral genocide apologia theory to begin with.

Ahhh, would you look at that! You've had the gall to bring up another gross argument similar to your earlier one (which is a common fandom one, I'll admit) that Anakin showed "mercy" to the younglings when killing them, when it's obvious that's incorrect and he didn't show them anything but cruelty. And now you're giving this type of similar gross argument that genocide survivors were "freed" from the "slavery" of their own culture! I gotta hand it to you, it's a common SW fan belief, but every time I hear it, I still get amazed at the gall of someone who truly believes this is accurate each and every time. Because it's obvious you don't agree with their culture (not saying I'd be a good Jedi either, but the point remains), which is why you think them being "freed" from their culture is better for them so the genocide survivors can make "real families" because you don't view the Jedi as family! Because you only believe in the basic family dynamic. So yeah, this opinion is also immoral and wrong obviously, because it tries to twist Anakin's and the Empire's genocidal actions as "benevolent" and "cleansing the Order for something new." Which is, again, genocide apologia, which proves you are wrong, because it's illogical that genocide apologia would be the theme of a children's trilogy about hope.

A lot of these things you bring up about Anakin and Palagueis are things l'm not even sure are actually canon anymore or if they're from Legends. Even if they are canon, these again are not excuses for his actions just because Anakin may have had a penchant for darkness. Even if he did, it's still his responsibility to learn how to control it and not hurt people. Many Jedi need to be guided on the right path to not follow evil, which is what the Jedi already did every day. With all of the thousands of Jedi trained and only a handful turning to the Dark Side, that seems like a pretty good record. The Jedi didn't "lose their way." This is a tired and BS argument that I admit Filoni has brewed the more GL gave him more leeway with SW, because Filoni doesn't view the Jedi as heroes in the right like GL did. There is nothing to show they lost their way just because they joined the war, because they literally were given that choice or sitting on their asses to watch the galaxy burn, and you bet your ass if they did that then Palpatine would spin it around to the public: "Look at how they sit in their ivory towers and watch you suffer under the Separatists's hands! 🤪🤪” So there is literally no way they can win here. If you're talking about how some of their methods got dirty (trying to mind trick the bounty hunter), firstly: they were literally trying to save their own children from being tortured/experimented on/enslaved, which I'm pretty sure gives them some slack (unless you're only willing to give that to Anakin?). Secondly, Anakin also got his hands dirty plenty of times in the war, and is conveniently not criticized by the fandom as much as the Jedi are. Ironic, huh?

Anakin could've told Obi-Wan anything and Obi-Wan would've helped him. Anakin knew that. Anakin just didn't want to risk losing his Jedi authority in the Order, because he didn't want to have to choose between a life with Padmé and being a powerful Jedi. If he cared about Padme completely selflessly, why didn't he just admit he was married and ask the Jedi to help Padmé and make sure she stayed alive through their Jedi healers? That was an option.

He literally risked Padme's life because he keeps sitting on the fence to try and have both. Because despite what you and some of his fans believe—Anakin isn't OWED both. He doesn't deserve everything in the world just because he is the oh so mighty "Chosen One/Hero With No Fear". A culture shouldn't have to change their entire way of life just for one man to continue being married and to have his cake and eat it too by staying in the Order. Even in real life, priests still aren't allowed to practice and be married. That doesn't mean they're being "repressed" or that they're under some type of horrible "slavery" to suppress their emotions. It's just the rules of that culture. If Anakin didn't like the rules of the Jedi, he should've just left after getting their help to keep Padmé and his kids safe. But he didn't because he wanted to keep both. That’s on him. Not his victims.

I mean, yeah, no duh the Jedi Order would’ve had some problems after killing Palpatine and having to prove they he was a Sith that acted on both sides of the war. Palpatine did that really well, but it’s a bit illogical to assume they wouldn’t eventually find evidence in his office somewhere or on his data files. He did the things he did by planning his schemes some type of way. And yeah, for some insane reason being a Sith Lord “wasn’t illegal”, but being controlling of both sides of the war IS, which they could’ve proved after a while. So, if you are trying to argue that Anakin’s actions were for the “better” because it would’ve been too “hard” for the Jedi otherwise—you are still objectively wrong this way. 🤷‍♀️ It’s also just another way to try and excuse Anakin by pretending his actions that day on the final day of freedom of democracy didn’t matter, when it’s obvious that they very clearly did. If Anakin hadn’t cut off Mace’s hand, the war would’ve been won. Therefore, everything that goes bad in the galaxy is legit Anakin’s fault. 🤷‍♀️ Of course Palpatine has the highest blame because he’s the mastermind, but betrayers/backstabbing is always a worse breed of crime, because it always comes from a friend, which is what Anakin was to the Jedi/Obi-Wan/Ahsoka/Rex/Padmé/501st. He legit ruins all of his friends’s lives with that one swing to cut off Mace’s hand. Trying to paint it as anything else is simply incorrect, and takes away from his ‘redemption’ at the end of the Original Trilogy by trying to pretend he’s a “poor little guy” who had no choice.

Anakin could’ve “defeated” Palpatine multiple ways. Just as I mentioned before, just because The Force had a “plan” doesn’t mean that everyone was puppets walking around on a string, because then free will wouldn’t exist. Anakin could’ve helped defeat Palpatine in his office that day in Revenge of The Sith by either taking the swing himself or either standing back and just letting Mace finish the job. He’s still The Chosen One that way, because his choice is still literally the defining action that saves democracy that way. He also could defeat him the way he does in the Original Trilogy, which is taking him by surprise to save Luke by throwing him down the reactor shaft to kill Palpatine. Either way gets the job done. He doesn’t need to physically fight Palpatine to get it done himself. He’s just the catalyst for what happens to the galaxy because of HIS choices alone, which proves how he has agency and understood why all his actions were wrong and just didn’t care. He didn’t need Luke for that in Palpatine’s office. All he had to do was grow a spine and let Mace take the final swing. He failed to do that and doomed the galaxy for twenty years because of it. 🤷‍♀️

Ahhh, there you go again with the gall to pretend that what Anakin did was “mercy” for the younglings just because the imperials would’ve done horrible things to them too! Gotta hand it to you, one has to have a lot of nerve to believe such an argument such as this (which I acknowledge is a common opinion among rabid Anakin fans), but it’s still gross and hilariously wrong every time I hear it repeated. So, just as I stated to you before: you and anyone else who has this opinion is WRONG, because obviously Anakin murdering little kids like animals is not a mercy. Anyone with any type of heart and soul should be able to realize that. What Anakin did is not and will never be a “mercy”. It was a cruel and dehumanizing act towards kids who were begging for his help. What would ACTUALLY have been mercy is what I stated before: Anakin snapping out of it to save the kids and lead them out of the Temple to save their lives. THAT is mercy. The only reason you continue to spout this BS argument that is common among rabid Anakin fans is to try and twist yourself into knots to deny Anakin agency and pretend he had “no choice” but to kill the kids for “mercy”, when it’s clear that this opinion of yours and anyone else who believes it is gross, immoral, and just plain wrong. 🤷‍♀️ It’s as simple as that.

Anakin WAS taught to understand, accept and manage his emotions correctly. That’s LITERALLY what “control” means: MANAGING your emotions so you don’t lash out at people in your anger, which is what the Jedi always warned their members against doing. The only difference here is that you just don’t agree with their beliefs, and are inadvertently portraying them as a culture who “suppresses” their emotions, when from the movies and TCW show it’s obvious that you and anyone who has this opinion is wrong. 🤷‍♀️ There are literally scenes that show it’s about being MINDFUL of your emotions so you don’t let them control you. Not to pretend they don’t exist. Anakin had all of these Jedi teachings available to him. The only difference is that he thought he was above the rules and that they didn’t apply to him. All of which eventually bit him in the ass, because he refused to listen to anyone and be told “no” without getting angry.

Qui-Gon was kind to Anakin, and Anakin had a fondness for him, but it is NOT canon that if Qui-Gon lived Anakin wouldn’t have fallen. That’s just a fanon theory that fans pretend is canon. You know how I know this? Because if you look it up, George Lucas straight up SAYS in interviews that Qui-Gon living wouldn’t have changed anything for Anakin not falling to the Dark Side. The “Duel of the Fates” is just what the song writer titled the song as a metaphor for the fight between light and darkness, but that doesn’t mean that because Qui-Gon died it was impossible for Anakin to grow a brain and a conscience and make choices of his own. GL literally knows better, because he’s the writer, which is what SW fans always say, right? Because anyone that believes that Qui-Gon dying “sealed Anakin’s fate” is simply using it as another copout/excuse for Anakin’s actions to pretend like all of his choices weren’t his own fault. Obi-Wan was a fine teacher for Anakin, and just because he wasn’t perfect didn’t mean he “failed” him. The truth is that Obi-Wan did everything he could, but Anakin refused to accept Obi-Wan’s help half the time. That’s on him and nobody else. He failed Obi-Wan. Not the other way around. Obi-Wan only thinks he “failed” Anakin out of misplaced guilt because he’s a better person than Anakin could ever hope to be who actually felt guilt for his actions, when Anakin in turn during that time at least felt nothing but entitlement and anger towards friends who wouldn’t join him on the Dark Side.

Dooku also doesn’t have any room to talk. He might’ve noticed corruption in the Senate, but the second Dooku joined the Sith and the Separatists and started helping enslave planets and killing people, he lost all credibility and became a big old hypocrite, just like Anakin became after ROTS.

So far, every single opinion you have given is just one excuse after another for Anakin’s actions to try and put the blame on someone else (usually the victims of his genocidal atrocities). And all of them are incorrect and immoral and wrong. 🤷‍♀️ Because half of it is genocide apologia or trying to twist Anakin’s actions from killing the younglings as “benevolent mercy”, when that is obviously WRONG and the biggest copout I have ever heard in my life. You also try to excuse Dooku’s actions, which is also wrong, because Dooku is a literal war criminal at the end of ROTS, so all of his opinions mean squat at that point, because he’d become the very thing he’d hated at that point, just like Anakin would eventually come to be from his own shitty choices. Therefore, every single thing you have brought up is not “facts.” It is simply an opinion that has become huge in fandom spaces because people like Anakin’s character and are biased against him and want to pretend he was a “poor little guy” who couldn’t make decisions, when it is clear there were a million other decisions he could’ve made.

I will then bring this around back to my original point: Leia Organa is not a “brat” for choosing not to forgive someone who was once one of the biggest monsters in the galaxy who TORTURED her (her own flesh and blood FATHER) just because Anakin might’ve had a hard childhood or a few people “being mean to him.” She doesn’t owe him anything, because specifically everything that had gone wrong in the galaxy up to that point was ANAKIN’S fault, and it is the LEAST he can do to kill Palpatine and fix it, so she doesn’t owe him anything for him killing the Emperor either. It’s great Luke found it in his heart to forgive Anakin, but it will NEVER be acceptable to call Leia a “bad person” for not forgiving Anakin, who is canonically the space Hitler (proven) of the Star Wars galaxy. She doesn’t owe him shit, and again: Anakin is lucky she didn’t spit on his grave.

Again: this doesn’t mean I hate Anakin’s character. But unlike you, when I like a character, I don’t need to excuse their every action to pretend they are “poor little guys.” Anakin was a horrible monster for most of his life, but I’m still GLAD he found salvation and peace in the afterlife. But he did NOT deserve it. He deserved to be condemned to the farthest pits of Hell, and I am under no delusions about that. He’s lucky the people around him (Luke, Yoda, Obi-Wan and Ahsoka) are far better people than he ever was while he was alive and were able to find it in their hearts to offer him forgiveness, because he never showed them that same kindness or grace, and obviously didn’t deserve their love or loyalty. It makes it all the more saintly that they gave it to him.

You’re correct that I said earlier I didn’t want to continue this conversation because I feel like we’re going in circles. But if you’ll recall, I also stated if you kept messaging me then I would respond to the best of my abilities.

My final message to you on my points is the one I left before and also this following one, and then I will wish you farewell, considering we’re obviously never going to agree. Maybe someday someone will come across this thread and read my thoughts and see the logic in not believing genocide apologia is the theme of a CHILDREN’S series about hope. Either way, the conversation is basically finished. I’m not going to repeat everything I have said that discredits your points again, as nothing I’ve said has gotten through to you apparently. The reason in my last message I brought my point back around to Leia not being what you call a “brat” is because that was the original reason I replied to you to begin with. The other stuff in this final comment you send about Leia “owing” Anakin for her birth, which is why she “owes” him forgiveness is also wrong as well for all of the reasons I stated earlier. The parent argument is just another excuse because Anakin was a deadbeat dad. Lots of kids write off their terrible parents every day.

Every other thing you bring up about the Jedi and Mace and the Council has already been refuted by my points earlier to show them as incorrect, even if you don’t agree. The final thing is of course you repeating Anakin has no agency and shouldn’t be blamed because the Force had a “plan”, but again, I’ve already proven in my earlier messages that type of immoral and genocide apologia argument about it being his “destiny” to genocide the Light Side is wrong, because—again—Star Wars is a CHILDREN’S series at the end of the day, and it is completely illogical and absurd that “genocide is good, actually!” is the main theme of a CHILDREN’S trilogy about hope.

I will respond to you no further now. I am satisfied with the points I have made debunking your claims, and will definitely come back to this as a reference if I need to debate someone in the future. I will only leave you with a vague thanks that things managed to stay mostly civil besides us calling each other “strange”. But then again, I know we were both probably getting annoyed. Still, it’s a rare thing to have a mostly polite debate on the internet, so I’ll give credit where credit’s due. 👍 Goodbye, and hope your day is well.

As you can see, there’s a lot of genocide apologia in this guy’s arguments (literally disgusting), and there were times I got a little snippy (it gets frustrating defending genocide survivors over and over), but for the most part, I tried to be polite, because I wanted all my points to remain strong. If you are willing to listen to my perspective, I think you can admit some of his arguments echo your own, even if you’re obviously not as blunt and frankly gross about it as him.

Take the show The Acolyte, and how it’s supporters argue that it’s only “critiquing” the Jedi and showing them as “flawed”, which is what you wanted to get at when you sent this ask, no? To “make sure that in discussing the Jedi we remember the good and bad.” Well, my response is… why is that needed? You’ve seen all my points and examples about how being anti Jedi is the larger fandom opinion and how Order 66 is quietly thought to be partly “their fault”, which is literally one of the grossest opinions to have and I’ll never sugarcoat that. So, why is it NEEDED to point out their “flaws” with every post on how they didn’t deserve their genocide? Why does that matter? Why can’t it just be agreement: the Jedi didn’t deserve to be slaughtered like animals? Why is it “oh, but we must remember that they were flawedddd and complacenttttt. 😔💔 After all, if only they just hadn’t been mean to poor Anakinnnn. Then he wouldn’t have been ‘forced’ to help murder them all. 😔💔” Like… do you not HEAR how condescending that sounds? 😭🤷‍♀️🤦‍♀️

Why do the Jedi have to be the “perfect victims” for fans, otherwise they either “deserved what they got” or were “arrogant” and “brought it on themselves?” Why aren’t the MURDERERS/BETRAYERS blamed for the collapse of a galaxy (Anakin and Palpatine), when THEY were the ones responsible and who pulled the trigger? The point is that it’s frankly just weird how much certain fans bring up that “oh, don’t forget they were flawedddd! 🤪🤪🤪” on a post that is mourning the loss of their culture. I promise you that your “special little blorbos” Kanan and Ahsoka (the REAL her that hasn’t become Filoni’s mouthpiece) would probably not enjoy the way you describe them as “oh, but YOU’RE one of the good ones!” And I say that with all the politeness I can manage.

Funnily enough, the writer of The Acolyte, LH, kind of echoes your sentiments, which just aren’t as “benevolent” as you may genuinely believe. In her show, there’s no DEPTH or honestly real THEMES of SW put into the show. It’s all flipped around to the Dark Side being “liberating”, which is so far from true it’s literally laughable. 😭😒 And I’m getting ticked off that when genuine criticism from pro jedi fans come up, somebody just HAS to say—“This show is just portraying the Jedi as not perfect! 😌” 😬😤🫠 And I swear I’m gonna lose it one day, because it portrays the Jedi as more than imperfect. It portrays them as emotionally repressed, barely competent “space cops”. 🙄 (Fucking HATE that term antis use for them so much, because it’s what they argue about saying the Jedi ‘deserved’ their genocide because they’re an ‘institution’ and not a “real” family. 😬😬🤬🤬 Ohhhh, I’m gonna go off on someone one day. Lol.) And these are just my frustrations. It’s not personally directed at you at the moment, anon. It’s just me kind of venting all my thoughts on this post.

I even had a fairly decent comment on my tumblr post about my critique of The Acolyte from a fan trying to save it, and they basically said the same thing and that it’s from the Sith perspective so it’s skewed. But it’s not. 😭😭 Because the showrunner’s views literally mirror the villain’s and then they become her mouthpieces. The show is completely anti Jedi while trying to pretend in a condescending way that it’s only Jedi critical in a way like—“Ah, those poor little culty Jedi. 😔😔💔 Some had good hearts… but their culture doomed them to be wiped out… 😔💔” 😒🙄😤🤬

I just… fucking HATE that show. 😭 SO much. And I know certain fans loved it, so I apologize if people enjoyed at least certain parts, but I’ve read a tumblr post that broke down the show really well and how hollow it is. The characters barely have time to interact and get to know one another before they’re all killed off (Yord and Jecki and Sol, who were fan favorites), until only Osha and Quimir remain—because at the end of the day, THAT’S what this whole stupid show was about. 😭🤦‍♀️ It was about a Reylo fanfic writer getting to play in her sandbox.

Anyway, my point is I don’t think you’re “anti Jedi”, anon. I think you’re “Jedi critical”, yes. But not in the benevolent way you believe. I think you are unknowingly being benevolently condescending in the way The Acolyte tries to be by saying, “Ooohhh, those poor, culty Jedi. 💔😔😔😔 If only they weren’t so emotionally repressed like robots (dehumanization)… maybe then they could’ve changed their culture so they didn’t have to be ‘cleansed’ for a ‘better galaxy’. 😔💔💔” It’s just… stuff like that. 😭🤷‍♀️🤦‍♀️ Which is… SO exhausting for us pro Jedi fans to hear over and over and over like it’s a valid take, when it’s just really not. But I wanted to explain my thoughts in a way I hope was mostly polite. I probably sound a little bit snippy, but it’s just because I’m frustrated at having to defend genocide victims again. That’s all.

I guess I would just… encourage you to rethink your thoughts? Because when you take into account what the Sith/Empire represent (Nazis) and then what the Jedi genocide is a metaphor of… your ‘argument’ looks less and less cute. 🤷‍♀️😭 I’m just saying. Some may not like me comparing it to real life, but there are plenty of Asian fans/aroace fans/Jewish fans that heavily relate to the Jedi for this very reason, and I refuse to allow their opinions to be silenced, because fiction is for everyone, and SW has ALWAYS been political, which means it’s literally MADE to be compared to real life.

Anyway, I hope this long meta post maybe changed some minds, if not your own. I’m gonna leave links to other big pro Jedi blogs that have better and more organized meta posts than me about this stuff, where they go in depth explaining how the Jedi are the good guys and how what happened in the Prequels was never about “the genocide victims are in the wrong, actually!” and was more about the SENATE becoming corrupt and rotting democracy from the inside out, which made it so easy for Palpatine to slither into power. 10,000 Jedi aren’t gonna easily change that. But the politicians CAN. They were just too selfish to do so. The Senate/Sith are the real villains of the Prequel trilogy. Not the Jedi (literal genocide victims). Anything less than viewing it like this is just… wrong. 😭🤷‍♀️

Here are the big Pro Jedi meta blogs I talked about:

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@ensomnia

@heartfairy

@fangirlteallie

@shoniwake

@lemons-to-limes

@lexskiss

@spidersaye

@selenaftmarvel

@silverwoodj

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