#syscourse

[sophieinwonderland]

Any place that is safe for sysmeds is unsafe for endogenic systems.

I believe that any attempt at coexistence with those who hate me for my existence will be futile. Any attempt to "both sides" this matter creates a false equivalency between people defined by their hatred for a marginalized community and their victims.

Don't act surprised when victims who are hated for their very existence don't trust you while you defend the very people who do nothing but spread the hate against them.

[starfallsystemblog2]

Lmao "no one legitimately want endos dead" lmao says the one who never gets death threats or been doxxed ever in their life

[okiimii]

i dont know where we lie in the community. we believe in endogenic systems, but we're not welcomed in the pro endo community because we don't despise anti endos. we also obviously don't belong in the anti endo community. endo neutral? i don't think so.

we have no place for us, because how everything is so divided.

where's the "anyone can change for the better" community?

-rantaro

[quoigenicfromhell]

I think people need to understand that when people argue that pluralphobia is a subset of ableism, it doesn't mean that the experience of bigotry is lessened. Systemic oppression is 'systemic' for a reason. If/when plurality gains a place in public consciousness, then we can talk about systemic pluralphobia separate from ableism.

[neon-vocalist]

Inverse syscourse. Endogenic systems are pretending to fake their plurality but they’re actually real. Traumagenic systems remember every moment they’ve never lived. Sources are not their introjects. System members over 18 are not real adults. It is an introject’s solemn duty to become EXACTLY like their source. Caretakers aren’t real

[thelunastusco]

Anyways unfriendly reminder that "plurality" as a term was created to be inclusive to all types of systems-- trauma-formed or not, disorder or not. The plural community was made to be inclusive.

[thecircularsystem]

An important thought that came to my mind tonight while this whole “anti endos are all bigots” and “is pluralphobia a form of systemic oppression” discourse plays out…

If it were not for pro-endos who were willing to allow me, a known sysmed, into their spaces, I would not believe Endogenic systems exist.

If not for pro-endos giving me a chance to learn, and grow, I would be anti-endo.

And, by proxy, if they hadn’t don’t that, many of them would not understand where I was coming from with various takes of mine. I’ve had people confirm that, while they didn’t agree with the beliefs I held, they could understand where they came from.

That understanding — that unconditional acceptance — was something that was lacking from many of the pro-endo spaces I was in. It’s why I’m still in some of the pro-endo servers I’m in. It’s why I returned to ones that even kicked me, due to behaviors I exhibited not even a year ago.

Thank you to those who have given us a chance to be part of your safe spaces. Without pro-endos who are willing to accept anti-endos, there would be no change for growth. You’ve done the world a large service by simply remembering what we learned in kindergarten.

Today, work on remembering the golden rule, folks.

[chemical-system]

cw: a teeny bit of syscourse

i love seeing anti endo posts acting like their the victim for getting harassed when they harass people for existing and they get harassed for *checks notes* .. harassing people for existing

i feel like you created your own problem there bud

(any anti endos who have anything to say that’s not nice or constructive gets blocked on sight 🤗)

[ellipse-society]

So I think there may be some misconception about what can be considered ableism. The disorder itself doesn't need to be mentioned for what someone says to be ableist. For example with DID there are many misconceptions that people use to be ableist(cw fakeclaiming). For example it's just demonic possession, it's just a trend you are copying from social media, or it's iatrogenic(your doctor convinced you you have it). Any of those misconceptions can be used against you without the disorder being mentioned and still be ableism. If it is a common misconception about a disorder that is similar to what you are talking about experiencing there is a good chance that the way the person came to that conclusion is by thinking about the disorder making it still ableism.

[thebestcrew]

Guys. I don't think anyone is debating on what anti-endo means. Just to clarify that point. The term itself is well understood. Just to make that clear for anyone who's getting confused.

What is being discussed is about nuances and not jumping to conclusions. You don't have to like them, you don't have to agree with them, and you are welcome to keep your boundaries and keep anyone who uses the label at a distance.

I think what everyone is trying to push for is that there are nuances and other reasons someone may use the label. Should a label be used when it doesn't fit 100%? Probably not, but if it does what the person needs it to do, then I'm not going to say they shouldn't use it. Doesn't matter if it is seen as a positive or negative label.

Use anti endo and I'll block you. But I'm not blocking because I think every single person who uses the label or tag is the very same as Astro or other harassers. I'm doing it to lessen my odds of seeing hate AND giving space to people who may not want to interact with me. Which is fine and dandy. I'm not assuming every anti to be the devil who deserves harassment for choosing said label or being blamed for things they haven't done or even agree with.

I know more things have been discussed the past couple days, but this is simple and easy for me to engage with. If you don't like my stance or the people I've been agreeing with on these matters you are welcome to block us, and to make life simple please remember to block @ash-n-dynamite because thats our main account. If you don't want to see us I don't want to see you.

Anyways, to anyone who's been triggered by this syscourse, please PLEASE take a moment to filter tags, step away, get something tasty, hug a pet. People have been hurt by antis and syscourse, there is obvious trauma and trauma responses going around. I don't care why its a trigger, and I dont even care what your stance is, but I do care that you take care of yourself. Please do something healthy and kind for yourself.

[multiplicity-positivity]

Here’s some positivity for systems and headmates who used to be anti endo!

Change can be very difficult, and sometimes, it can feel downright impossible. If you are a system or headmate who used to be anti endo, but has since changed your ways, you deserve to be uplifted, embraced, and celebrated in our spaces. You are a part of the plural community, and you belong here just the way you are! Here’s to those who used to be anti endo, but aren’t anymore!

🌺 Shoutout to systems who first learned about plurality through anti endos, and didn’t want to or were scared to question their beliefs!

🌻 Shoutout to individual headmates in pro endo systems who used to be anti endo, but have since come around!

🌷 Shoutout to systems who do not understand endogenic plurality, but who still cherish and believe endogenic systems!

🌼 Shoutout to systems who used to be anti endo, and then later found out they are endogenic or mixed origins themselves!

🌺 Shoutout to systems who were shunned, cut off, or ostracized from their friends or online community after they started questioning their anti endo beliefs!

🌻 Shoutout to those who used to be anti endo, but now advocate for plural solidarity and acceptance!

🌷 Shoutout to systems who are just beginning to question and change their views regarding endogenic plurality!

🌼 Shoutout to past anti endos who now stand up for and defend endogenic systems!

🌺 Shoutout to those who disliked endos as a result of their trauma history, but who changed after they had the chance to heal, learn, and grow!

🌻 Shoutout to systems who used to be anti endo but are now asking questions, being respectful, and having conversations with endogenic systems!

🌷 Shoutout to systems who changed their anti endo beliefs after being treated with kindness, compassion, and patience by endogenic systems and their supporters!

Anti endos are people too, and they are capable of positive growth and change, no matter who they are today and what they believe. If you are a system or headmate who used to be anti endo, but has since changed your ways or beliefs, please know that we are so very proud of you. Changing your beliefs can be extremely difficult! We are sure that there is a lot of pain, fear, and anger that comes along with being anti endo, and we are so very thrilled to see you reach a point where you can let that bitterness go, or at least direct it towards more deserving targets (like the ableist society that we live in or medical institution that discriminated against us all).

Please don’t ever doubt your place in the plural community. Your past does not define you - the actions you take and decisions you make today are so much more important! Our spaces truly would not be the same without you, and we cherish your presence here! You belong in the plural community and your allyship with endogenic systems speaks volumes. Know that we care about you and we believe in you. You inspire and motivate us towards positive change and being the best system we can be. We hope you can take it easy and have a wonderful day today. Know that we’re in your corner, we’re rooting for you, we are ready to fight for you, and we can’t wait to see what your future holds!

[sophieinwonderland]

I am never going to buy into the pluralphobia-deniers argument that all pluralphobia is misdirected ableism when discrimination against systems often manifests in the form of religious persecution.

"You're only being discriminated against because people see you as having a disorder" really doesn't fly when the people discriminating against or abusing you are claiming you have a demon in you.

I am lucky enough to have avoided this, but that's probably because we don't flaunt our plurality offline, and it's not something that's really known about by people that aren't immediate family. And we are lucky enough to have a pretty supportive family where others haven't been.

But this doesn't change the fact that many systems have experienced persecution by people who did not, in fact, see them as having a mental disorder.

Fear and prejudice against multiples is far deeper (and older) than just being ableism.

And it's frustrating to keep having to come back to this conversation with people who want to deny that systems are actually discriminated against for being systems. For being plural. For being any flavor of multiple in one body.

[rayssyscourse]

syscourse hot take (more like syscourse tired take honestly) "pro/neutral/anti-endo": for anyone who's endogenic in any way, or even just previously thought they were endogenic, it's really tiring (and not conducive to constructive conversation) to have so many syscourse labels revolve around...an innate aspect of someone's lived experience. Like. We are fully aware that plenty of people who label themselves "anti-endo" don't necessarily think that endogenic systems are fake and/or evil etc, that's just purely a demonstrably true statement. We don't even think that the people using "anti-endo" that way are necessarily Terrible People for doing so. Simultaneously, though, speaking as a system who spent years thinking we were 100%-basic-vanilla-endogenic but still wanted to take part in nuanced discussions around system experiences and offer our perspectives on discourse--seeing 'anti-endo' or even 'endo-neutral' always still...stung a little? Even when someone was conversing in good faith. Like, the idea that it was acceptable for our personhood (which really is what it felt like the arguments were about! whether one of us was 'just a made-up daydream' and not a person) to be up for debate, that it was an acceptable "political football" or thing to be "neutral" about...wasn't a good feeling. And honestly, even though we technically have a DID dx on paper these days, we still get that little flicker of distrust whenever we see 'anti-endo' in someone's bio--because we're still exactly the same system that we were before, and if they wouldn't have believed us about our experiences then...why do they think so much depends on some rubber-stamp diagnosis? what do they think changed? We don't have a good answer to this problem, though. Telling people that they're automatically terrible bigots for not labeling themselves pro-endo doesn't feel like it'll actually solve anything, because crucially I don't think that most of the "doesn't actually believe endos are fake or bad"-anti-endos are calling themselves that for a reason that simply shaming them sufficiently will change. Also, the internet is a big place, and expecting everyone to be up-to-date on every possible niche discourse stance is absurd--and if someone really just wants to stay the heck away from system discourse entirely, they should be able to. But also...yeah, we wish they'd use different words. Don't use "anti-[unchangeable aspect of someone's identity]" and not expect it to feel hurtful to see. "Well, I just don't want people Like That interacting with me..." what if they just thought your art was cool? What if they agreed with your hot take about [insert fandom here]? Who else are you 'anti', not because you disagree with some opinion they hold, but purely because you're 'nothing like them'? Idk. It's frustrating, and I wish we had some kind of easy, magic solution.

thank you!! this is a really well written thought, and i fully agree.

to be honest, this is one of (admittedly many) reasons i dropped pro/anti-endo labels altogether. not only can they come across as denying somebody's existence, but i feel like we just don't fit in simple boxes like that. i mean, "pro-endo" can mean any plethora of things: it could mean the person is endogenic, they support endos, they don't engage in syscourse/just don't care, they just disagree with anti-endo points, etc etc. in the same way, "anti-endo" can also mean a million things. some anti-endos think endos are all faking, some think they're misinformed, some believe they exist but think they're spreading too much misinfo, some think they're doing harm to traumagenic communities, etc. i also just don't like the black-and-white way those labels portray us. somebody being pro-endo doesn't mean they support every single endo, it doesn't mean they necessarily support radqueers (weird misconception i see a lot), and it doesn't mean they have no criticisms of the endogenic community. i know a lot of anti-endos who fully believe and don't hate endos but just have criticisms of the label and/or community, who are often assumed to hate all endos or think all endos are faking because the label is just too broad and comes across completely wrong.

sorry to ramble on for so long in one giant paragraph lol. tl;dr, you're so right, say it louder for the people in the back!!

[syscultureis]

System culture is accidentally following another fictive culture, but it turns out it's endo safe..

.

[quoigenicfromhell]

Genuinely what is wrong with some of y'all. It's perfectly fine to not want to talk to/invite anti-endos into your spaces, *obviously*. I don't usually wanna talk to anti-endos! But like, again, do you think having the only interaction with endogenics antis get being screaming matches and hate will at all help us????

I grew up in a conservative echo chamber and if the only interaction I ever got from liberals were ones proving my parents were correct about them, I would never have thought to question my beliefs. This is basic harm reduction, people?????????? The way some of yall are treating human beings like the literal devil just because they believe something harmful, as if we all haven't done that at sole point, makes me not want to associate with yall.

[okiimii]

i don't like anti endos, i don't believe we ever said that we did. not hating anti endos doesn't mean we like them. we personally don't hate. hate to us is extremely negative and affects our mentality for the worst.

using our energy to hate people rather than using it to uplift systems is just a waste of our time. anti endos deserve to change, not isolated or shunned from communities.

instead, we believe in providing a space to learn and transform their beliefs. this doesn't mean we agree with their views, but appreciate constructive conversations and the possibly of progress. the aim for us is not to exclude, but to gently guide people into a better understanding, even if it takes time. :)