#so I don’t BLAME Tim fans for it

[rubydubydoo122]

I think the funniest thing about how the Fandom perceives Tim (especially obnoxious Tim fans) is that he is was deeply hurt by the actions Jason, Damian, and Dick have done to him, but lowkey that’s just the fandom projecting

Tim lowkey did not give a fuck. Maybe a little at first, but he definitely does not hold a grudge against any of them.

[three-semicolons]

Look I’ve been seeing the apparent underground war between Tim and Jason fans all over my timeline. I’m gonna be a buck-fifty. I do not care. Characterize Tim as a wobbly-lipped kiddy or do the same to Jason. So long as Dick is a good big brother and has those moments I DO NOT CARE.

But the MOMENT I see someone dramatize Tim losing Robin and being suggested therapy as Dick being a demonic brother or see the same about Dick’s initial treatment of Jason as Robin, I’m out. None of that happened.

Dick was a good, albeit distant, new brother. He didn’t know the kid and he was in a different city — sue him. He made more effort to meet Jason even though the kid was only his brother for like a year than I did to see my siblings in college. Idk what to tell you.

As for the Robin mantle swap, even comic Tim wasn’t all that upset. He was old for a Robin, he was ready to move on, and Dick wasn’t even the one to get the ball rolling on that. It was forgotten like a few panels later, no dramatics included. As for not being overly enthusiastic about the Batquest, can you blame him??? Given NO current information about the status of Bruce, is it really THAT crazy to suggest therapy and healthy means of moving on instead of a globetrotting adventure to obsessively seek out your dead father???

And like I know it turns out that Tim was right in the end. Awesome. I don’t chagrin him for that. But I DO chagrin fans who make Dick out to be evil for trying to be an emotionally mature brother. Fucking comic Tim understands that.

TL;DR: I don’t care about your fanon characterizations until they come for my homie Dick Grayson. At that point I’m ready to throw hands.

[voidfalcon]

Alright, let’s rip into this with the subtlety of a sledgehammer through a stained-glass window. Buddie shippers—you know who you are, the ones clutching your fanfics like sacred texts and screaming into the void of Tumblr and Twitter about how Eddie Diaz and Evan "Buck" Buckley are destined to be soulmates despite zero evidence in the actual show—your toxicity is a blight on the 9-1-1 fandom, and it’s high time someone called it out for the festering mess it is. You’ve turned what could’ve been a fun, speculative corner of the internet into a cesspool of entitlement, delusion, and outright hostility that makes wading through fandom discourse feel like trudging through a landfill after a rainstorm.

First off, let’s talk about your obsession with "subtext" that isn’t there. You cherry-pick every lingering glance, every moment of platonic camaraderie, and twist it into some grand romantic narrative that exists solely in your heads. Buck and Eddie are best friends—brothers-in-arms forged by trauma and trust—and you’ve warped that beautiful bond into something it’s never been scripted to be. You’re not "reading between the lines"; you’re scribbling your own fanon over a script that doesn’t support it, then throwing tantrums when the writers don’t cater to your fantasies. Newsflash: the show isn’t your personal sandbox. Tim Minear and the team don’t owe you a damn thing, least of all a romance that’s never been hinted at in canon beyond your fevered imaginations.

And oh, the toxicity—where do I even start? You’ve harassed actors, writers, and fellow fans with a venom that’s frankly unhinged. Oliver Stark says Buck’s bisexual awakening with Tommy Kinard was a story he was proud to tell? You flood his mentions with whining about how it "should’ve been Eddie." Ryan Guzman dares to play Eddie as a straight man with his own complex arc? You call him homophobic or claim he’s "queerbaiting" by—checks notes—existing as a character who doesn’t conform to your headcanon. You’ve turned the fandom into a battleground, doxxing people who ship other pairings, sending death threats over BuckTommy, and acting like anyone who disagrees with your Buddie gospel is some kind of fandom heretic. It’s not passion; it’s a tantrum dressed up as devotion.

Let’s not forget the mental gymnastics you perform to dismiss anything that contradicts your ship. Buck’s relationship with Tommy—canon, on-screen, confirmed—was a groundbreaking moment for a character who’d been floundering in dead-end romances with women. But instead of celebrating that representation, you sneered at it, called Tommy a "stepping stone," and insisted it was just a plot device to "delay" Buddie. You couldn’t handle that Buck’s queerness didn’t revolve around Eddie, so you trashed a perfectly good storyline out of spite. And when BuckTommy inevitably ended—because relationships in procedurals often do—you didn’t mourn it as a natural arc; you gloated like it was some cosmic victory for your cause. That’s not shipping; that’s a cult mentality.

The entitlement is suffocating. You act like 9-1-1 is a choose-your-own-adventure book where your votes dictate the outcome, and when it doesn’t bend to your will, you scream "queerbaiting" louder than a foghorn. Here’s a reality check: queerbaiting requires intent to mislead, and 9-1-1 has never dangled Buddie as a promise. You built that expectation yourselves, then blamed the show for not delivering. Meanwhile, actual queer rep—like Buck’s bisexuality or Hen and Karen’s marriage—gets overshadowed by your relentless whining. You’re not champions of representation; you’re gatekeepers of a fantasy that drowns out what’s real.

And the irony? You claim to love these characters, but you reduce them to props in your shipping war. Eddie’s struggles with grief, faith, and fatherhood? Irrelevant unless they serve Buddie. Buck’s journey of self-discovery and vulnerability? Only matters if it ends with Eddie’s arms around him. You don’t care about their growth as individuals; you just want your fanfic validated on-screen, consequences to the story be damned. It’s selfish, shallow, and sucks the joy out of a show that’s supposed to be about heroism, not your soap opera wet dreams.

So here’s the brutal truth, Buddie shippers: your toxicity has made you the fandom’s own emergency call—a disaster everyone else has to navigate around. You’ve taken a show about found family and turned it into a battleground for your unhinged obsession, alienating anyone who dares to enjoy 9-1-1 for what it actually is. Keep clutching your fanart and screaming into the echo chamber of your fandom, but don’t expect the rest of us to pretend it’s anything but noise. And while BuckTommy didn’t last long, at least it was canon—something your ship, for all its noise and bluster, will never be. Deal with it.

[guesswhoisofftheirmedsagain]

Rock Star Kon AU

AU where everyone is the same except Kon decides he doesn’t want to be a superhero, or a supervillain, he wants to follow his passion for music, specifically rock/punk. (An intern is actually to blame for his love of rock and punk music, because the same intern was always assigned to watch Kon in his tube days, [to made sure he didn’t explode or something idk how the comic logic works ok] and always listened to punk / rock music. It was the only music Kon could hear like ever and he really liked it.)

So he pops out the tube and Lex is like “you’re going to be the new Superman” and Kon’s like “nuh uh, ima go be a rock star” and Lex is all like ???? and Kon flys off and does become a rockstar because he’s just build different and hot and talented or something idk. He doesn’t keep quiet about his abilities at all, flying around at his concerts, playing all the different instruments with his TTK at once while he sings. (That took a lot of time to learn, he is a one man show) Nobody knows exactly what he is, the government cant catch him, plus now that he’s famous and loved by millions world wide, it’s a lot more difficult to do things under the radar. (Lex magically goes away because I wont be having his too shiny big head anywhere near this fluff) Anyway so because of this he meets Tim in a very different way.

Tim has to keep up public appearances, to do this, he needs to maintain normal friendships with citizens. That means when one of his friends from school invites him to go to a concert, in New York for the weekend with a whole group for their birthday, he accepts. He semi-enjoys himself, being able to see the super powered alien turned rock star up close was interesting. They had a file over him in the BatComputer, and he appeared to be of a low threat level, (with great potential to become a high level one, if he ever decides that he doesn’t wanna do music anymore and go evil), but they still didn’t know exactly what he is. They had a few theories going, the one with the most evidence being that he’s a kryptonian, or at least part kryptonian. He seems to be able to speak many languages, which Superman can’t do that well. Their power sets are different, but then again Superman was only one dude, kryptonians could have had a variety of different powers and they just don’t have the data pool to grab from.

Their group all have VIP passes, (Kon loves to meet with his fans, but the person who basically appointed herself as his manager knew there had to be some type of crowd control.). When it’s their groups turn, Tim’s Robin instincts flare up, the detective in him wanting to snag a few samples from Kon, to confirm his theories.

Kon lays eyes on the most beautiful person he has ever seen in his life, and he’s seen a lot of people, world wide. Kon flirted with his fans quite often, but it never went past a single meeting and light flirting. He has his eyes set on the fellow teen boy the moment he walked into his line of sight. He had never really asked someone out for real before, and suddenly he found himself nervous. He was tuned out to the conventions with fans he was having, unable to focus away from the pretty strangers voice, his heart beat, the way he walked and carried himself with a grace Kon couldn’t ever hope to achieve, even when he flys. He blinks, and the next thing he knows is that the pretty stranger is now standing right in front of him with his group. Kon of course interacted with the whole group, just because all of his senses wanted to hyper focus on everything this pretty strangers did, the way his shoulders moved when he breathed, his tone, the words he chose to use, that smile on his face- he needed to keep this guy in his life.

Near the end of their groups time, Tim was honestly caught off guard when Kon asked him if he wanted to maybe meet up tomorrow, because he was staying in New York another few nights after his last show. Tim almost said no, Kon was hot and way out of Tim’s league. Kon probably asked out every other person he saw, Tim knows through the media how big of a flirt he is. But something in Kon’s voice was so sincere- then Tim realized, this would be the perfect opportunity to get samples from him. So Tim’s school friends watch on in amazement as Kon, the world famous alien punk rock singer, asked out one of the hottest guys in their whole school.

Next

[malenjoyer]

tim used to be my fav robin a long time ago but I've started to understand why so many ppl don't like him

he was an okay character in the 90s/2000s but now with all of the other characters that have been added to the batfam he just brings so little to the table. he pales in comparison and has just become white guy with blue eyes number 738393. everything that stood out about him can be found in other characters, in the other robins, but better (big brother-little brother with dick&damian, solo robin adventures with damian, detective robin with maps, timsteph with daminika, family outside of the bats with damian or maps, etc).

it's so bad that in adaptations he's the most likely to be omitted (and can we blame dc?). steph is omitted as a robin more than him but in her case it's misogyny; what's tim's excuse?

he contributed to some important aspects of modern robin but those aspects are far better utilized by other robins. and I think steph is better off as a cass cain cast character bc, although dc is misogynistic and racist, cass has far better longevity than tim as a character and I think she has so many great things to achieve. so steph becoming part of her cast is a far better option for her popularity + perhaps steph could have her own solo stuff in the future bc she also is more interesting than tim. steph even has her own hero alias as spoiler which is already far more than tim has done post-robin. I frankly can't blame dc for not knowing what to do with him bc there's not much to work with and he doesn't stand on his own as a character

I actually had a lot of difficulty liking Tim or getting started on Tim at first because of this but the Old Media Lover brain took over. I think, yeah, it’s super doomy to think about the future of Tim drake and I have pondered what could be done about him and whether they’ll let him move on.

I really do think the power of being a fan is being able to take the character you loved before and simply create a universe for them where they have that future that you want for them. My friend and I have discussed a potential future for Tim that we really like and it honestly involves an aspect that other people probably won’t like- leaving gotham and leaving the “batfamily”. It’s one of my secret projects.

I guess once you realize that you don’t have to wait for DC to give your favorite character a better ending, you can just write it or draw it, it’s easy to stay a lot more optimistic.

Because when you say this for Tim drake, it’s hard to not say the same thing for Batman- the incapability to move on. For Batman, it’s part of the charm, but you realize gotham will never heal, Batman will never heal, or else the story will change. That’s the consequences of being a story that must go on. Once you think about that, it all gets very depressing because you realize eventually characters have to regress or stagnate because they are a product.

My point is, as a fan even though these are valid criticisms, I don’t believe you have to lose interest in characters if you truly don’t want to. A company doesn’t have control over your imagination. You can fix him. You can give him what he needs. It’s easy to get swept up by the negativity of being a comic fan especially with other people saying the same points and agreeing with you but you are put on this earth to be happy and enjoy life. So you can give him a new path if you want

[nqueso-lies]

Does the new Tim interview change your expectations for the episode?

https://ew.com/911-preview-bobby-mom-reunion-video-exclusive-11700159

It’s making me think Buck will be talking about Eddie a lot. But Oliver has said he isn’t interested in doing the “bi guys falls for a straight guy” so I really don’t think it’s gonna be in a romantic way, since they’re definitely not doing buddie. I just think Tim needs to draw some clear lines in the sand but I’m not sure if he ever will.

No. It doesn't change my expectations.

However, I need to be honest with the people who follow me or who just read my blog because you all have been amazingly respectful of MY respect towards Tim.

Truth is... I'm struggling.

Something with Tim has seemed to shift since season 7. I'm not trying to blame any one person, event, or groups of people here, so please don't jump to conclusions because I do not have all the facts. But something within the writing, the word salad interviews, and the deliberate admittance at hurting the audience feels almost... vengeful.

I tried to ignore it. I tried to talk it out and make sense of it, but as he continues to open his mouth in comparison to what we're actually seeing on our screens... it's getting harder and harder to rationalize Tim's choices.

I know a lot of you do not like Tim and that's completely valid. I'm not saying this is now a 'Tim Minear' hate blog, but I do want to apologize if I ever made your frustrations towards him feel invalid. I do see them and you're not wrong.

So, before I get a dozen asks just like this one, I'd like to say: Yes, Tim is deliberately baiting. Yes, he's acting almost passive-aggressive in certain comments he makes. Yes, I feel bad for the Buddie fans who read into his interviews and take them the way he's expecting the Buddies to take them. I do think he's seen the error of his ways, due to one of his recent interviews, but I'm not sure he really gives af and it doesn't matter anyway because we're well past the point of fixing the obvious fallout he and the network will face from a small, yet very vocal corner of the internet.

I'm hoping we might see a shift after tonight's episode, but I'm also not holding my breath.

[raghhhhhyperfixations]

Why do Batman fans so often want him to be a psychopath?

Genuinely don’t know what post made me seem like i hate bruce BUT i’m happy to explain the propaganda and hate around Batman and bruce!

So as everyone is aware the ‘batfamily’ kicked off in the early 90s (1940) googles say and so forth came alive, the batfamily!

Nightwing was the first and at age around 16 (I believe anyway feel free to correct me if i’m wrong), he ran off due to a fight with Bruce regarding situations and was FIRED, bruce FIRED him but this also fed alive nightwing who appeared when Dick was nineteen, he did try and be robin again but disliked it so returned to nightwing.

Now nightwing is a kryptonian superhero or legend, or two birds, flamebird and nightwing so the name is inspired by clark. (again feel free to correct me if i’m wrong.)

We move onto Jason, now by popularity vote he was widely disliked but he had been added into the media because ‘robin was needed’ idfk, so they killed him off and tried a couple of other robins.

Like stephanie brown, duke thomas but they didn’t exactly hit it off.

UNTIL tim drake came, now he wasn’t just ‘pushing his way into the position.’ funnily enough he tried to get nightwing to become robin who adamantly refused and the job was just given to him and he was like ‘huh, okay.’

and we all know damian anyway.

So this leads to your question ‘why do people hate bruce?’

Honestly if i were to answer by my own beliefs i’d say it’s because they hate the way he treated his children repeatedly .

So it built up the idea of ‘he’s an abuser’ when in reality he’s got mental health issues, WAS A TEEN DAD, HE WAS A TEEN WHEN HE ADOPTED DICK and seeing jason probably further ruined his mental stability.

Bruce is a good guy but he just doesn’t know how to be a good father is my opinion on him, he’s the ‘i’m trying.’

So in a lot of my posts he might seem more pushy, takeback, to the sudden sweetness, because he’s trying to find a line.

And a lot of batman fans don’t seem to know Batman can be on that line of ‘he’s a father that’s good and bad.’ like he ruined his relationship with Jason let’s not lie, but Jason does love him, it’s just extremely strained, under the red hood is a good example of Jason STILL wanting to be bruce’s son after everything.

But he and dick aren’t ‘as close’ as people think either, that’s his first son, the one he made the first mistakes with, the one he kicked out, fired, of course their relationship is all cracks underneath the seams.

So yes people hate him because he’s a ‘terrible father’ more often then not and not have any other reason.

He’s a good hero and realistically a father on the line of trying.

My best response to this question anyway, i don’t know if i came across if i hated him or if i didn’t but i don’t, i’m aware Bruce has issues and he never sorted those.

I’m aware he can’t be entirely blamed so why be angry with him? you need to remember he did try and attempt dick to stop being robin in like multiple shows and that little brat was like ‘you aren’t my dad’ and then proceeds to beat a fully 5’0 guy with just his hands alone.

He’s tired atp.

and with how the media portrays bruce now adays he comes off rude and cold.

But some good shows where his character is actually almost canon for once are - batman brave and the bold, justice league animated and some of the older batman shows.

He cares guys, he just doesn’t know how to show it :)

UPDATE: realised i reread the question wrong, a commenter explains it perfectly

[bronx-bomber87]

Hello Incredible Fandom and amazing readers! :) Holy fanfic fever dream on this one. Week after week I see why this season was in full lockdown. Like Eric it's rapidly becoming my fav. The giving season continues on with this ep. It's really fun to see them have fun. Especially after s6 and all the trauma. A day of them sneaking around and having sex whenever they can with a deadline? Sign me up. Straight fever dream content and I'm here for it. This one had me cackling and squeeing.

I was in shock in the best way. Writers be killing it with them this year. No complaints from me. Like at all. Haven't felt this consistently giddy since s5. Each ep is a glorious salve to my shipper heart that was so very damaged in s6. Another all around good episode as well. They're crushing that this season and then some. Having the show as a whole plus them be incredible? Quite happy. Also hoped everyone enjoyed Melissa's Social Media take over. She had so many goodies. I was in heaven. I'll take BTS all damn day. Let us dive into this fantastic ep.

7x12 April fools

I wasn’t expecting this as the cold open I will say. But I had zero idea of the premise of this one. So now that I know the ep in full it honestly makes sense. Like most things this season I am in the dark. Happy to be honestly. I'm a spoiler free square. It creates excitement like this for me every time we get a moment. I thought this would be an end-of-the-episode moment, but I'm very ecstatic that was the first of many moments for them. I'm always happy when they open the show. Just wasn’t expecting this in the least. Happily surprised. The giving season continues to give. And give it does. Holy hell.

Lucy is absolutely shameless in how she checks Tim out when he opens that door. I mean I can’t blame her. Man is looking fine and FIT. Don't blame her for wanting to climb him like a tree and wear out his branches. Those sweatpants are riding just low enough….We get to see that glorious chest of his and toned stomach. *fans self* I don’t blame her for wanting a piece. Something changed for her after that shop convo last ep. Unlocked something. I mean Lucy is just showing up for a booty call from Tim. A booty call and then some as we get to see as this episode unfurls.

Lucy doesn't even say hi back. Just launches into her plan to have him. She clearly isn’t ready for them to be back together yet. That much has been proven over the course of the season. But clearly is missing the physical aspect of their relationship. Hence this rouse of 'April Fools hall pass.' How long did she think of this idea? She is rambling but prepared af. Kudos to her for having the balls to just come here and get what she wants. Tim tries to combat her plan that A.F. is tomorrow not now. Lucy came prepped and she shoots it down immediately saying it's 12:01. So it is tomorrow. Now. Woman wants her some Tim Bradford so she is getting her some Tim Bradford.

'If anyone raises a flag.' Heh that was a given lets be honest. Telling Tim that if they get caught at any point (That was coming like a freight train cause they're terrible at being subtle.) They can claim "April Fools." Everyone can laugh and they get away with having a sex-filled day with no one being the wiser. I love him cutting of the continuance of her plan. She is in the middle of her sentence when he cuts her off with his lips. They move backwards in-sync of course. I love this shot of her hands on his hips kissing him. Pushing him back into his own house. Tim isn't fighting her in the least. He is more than happy to oblige but is very confused where this is coming from.

I will say my first thought was, is she just gonna come over whenever she wants him? Because if that’s the case she’s gonna be over a lot. heh. I didn't realize it would be the whole day at first. I love that she checks him out a second time after her final rant explaining her plan to get him into bed. I can't say I don't love horny Lucy. This is great. She is Thirsty af for Tim in this moment. Parched really. She is this entire ep. Tim isn’t going to fight having her in his bed but he is quite confused. He's getting lost in the details of it all and you can see Lucy becoming impatient LOL Like 'Uh huh. uh huh...' She just wants to get this man in bed already. Doesn't need him to be bogged down with pesky details of what this is or isn't.

Who knew Tim would be the talker? Not me. Lucy is indulging him at first. Nodding her head as he rambles on himself. Trying to process this whole thing. Melissa is crushing it with her expressions. She eventually cuts off his rambles. Slams that door forcefully getting his mind back on track. Wanting his pants off now. Hot damn. Also must say she must want him something fierce. To come over at exactly at 12:01, with this ludicrous excuse of a hall pass. They messy....And I wasn't sure I wanted messy but if this is how it's going to be. I am on board. Also we are getting our season's worth out of using his place. I love it. What a cold open. Half naked Tim, Lucy coming to seduce him, we're at his place and sexy times? I'm a happy girl.

Tim looks SOOO nervous about this 'prank.' What have you done to him Lucy Chen? LMAO I love it. I knew once I saw this moment we were in for a wild ride. One I was very happy to be on. Tim asking how this is going to go? The slight touching of his hand with her finger. Brazen. How can such a small touch send me spinning? I'm losing my damn mind over here.

'Just sitting closer than we normally are.' You're practically on top of each other. But what else is new honestly? Look at the ZERO space between them. ZERO. The skin to skin contact has me delirious. Look at how close they are when they're speaking. Like they're in their own world. Everyone else around them is just outside noise, that happens to be there. They're being as subtle as an avalanche right now. Do they really think they're good at being discreet?

For two highly skilled people who are amazing at their jobs, they're so clearly bad at this. Makes my heart so happy it's doing flips though. Haven't felt this giddy and squee-like since 5x10 when they were bombing the art of subtlety after their first date. Celina catches it instantly... Cause you two are broadcasting loudly without even knowing it. Her face is everything. Well done Lis. You crushing it with the expression. She's is the fandom in this moment. We are her.

Then there is Nolan. Being as perceptive as a rock when it comes to all this. Too wrapped up in his own shit to notice the fiery foreplay between these two. They even turn his problem into more flirty banter. To the point where Nolan just tunes out and they're back in their own world.

Lucy listing all the things he hates with a shit eating grin on her face. Be more in love with him Lucy I dare you. She is extra sunshine after a night with Tim. my god. Legit beaming. Not that I blame her... But she is all but shouting from the roof tops they had a good night together. She is so into him it's insane. Hopefully Tim can see what she is clearly throwing down at him.

If you watch closely they bump shoulders in the far shot. Tim rocks into her with flirty intentions. She is all smiles when he does. Look at them. Eric and Melissa are a god damn treasure Fandom. To do such small things that makes us lose our minds. We are blessed they are the captains of this fantastic ship. They’ve been obvious before but sweet lord. They're projecting it far and wide in roll call. I was ship high af at this point. And there is more to come.

Celina wastes no time trying to crack Lucy. Saying she’s glowing. LOL I mean….She is and has been since roll call and most likely long before that…. You’re as transparent as Tim is this season my girl. Celina coming right out and saying it. That she had sex. Lucy does a poor job of defending herself. Fighting Celina on it because well... No one can know.

Especially not this early in the day. It'll ruin all the naughty plans she has for them today. So instead of giving in she says she just feels extra sparkly. No honey, you had a very good night of hot sex with the love of your life. It’s exuding out of you. No doubt in my mind they went a few rounds before morning came.

Celina doesn’t let it drop and God bless her for it. Her face has me rolling so hard. We love you Celina haha Saying she saw her touch Tim’s hand. Yeah not as slick as you guys thought.....Subtle as a hammer per usual. Lucy trying to brush it off with a joke LOL 'Is that how you think sex works?'' I'm dying. lmao

Celina offers to be her Fort Knox of secrets but Lucy cant risk it. Lucy is clearly dying to talk and doesn’t. Holds strong against it. Stating ‘Nothing is going on.....’ Mmmhmm…As believable as your former rookie....Celina isn't buying what you're selling.

She is most definitely not ready to talk about it let alone dig deeper. What I do know is this is messy af. Delightfully so but definitely messy. Sleeping with him won’t un-muddy those already muddled thoughts and feelings you're having my dear. It's only going to increase them ten fold...

When it cut to giggling behind a closed door I about lost my mind. I was thinking 'I’m sorry are they’re making out in middle of the day at work and giggling? What is this glorious wonderland?' Also it was very hard to move past this scene to the rest of the episode. I wanted to live here and never leave. Look at how wrapped up they are in each other. Holy hell. Giving me 5x12 vibes. It is all hands hand hands. Is this real life? I felt like I was dreaming this was happening. His hands going for her hair and stopping himself. Moving down to her hips instead. Lucy isn't timid about being all over Tim either. She is HOT for this man and I am here for it. She was dying of thirst and this man was the only drinking source she needed. There's that song from Bruno Mars. 'Die with a smile.'

That's Lucy in this moment. If world was ending she wanted to die with a smile on her face being with him. Ain't nothing pulling her from this man. Look at her hands at the back of his head, and then on his face, as she goes in for a second kiss after Tim breaks off. Can't get enough of him. She is hungry for this man and I'm having to fan myself. Like two teenagers in love all hot and heavy. This is what people wanted to see in s5 when they were in hiding. Well we got it folks. Just a couple seasons later. I am deliriously happy. Seriously this season slowly repairing my battered shipper heart. I love how Tim keeps bringing up when they were together.

Or how they’re not together right now. Man has relationships on his mind. I love it. Tim being floored by her eager ferocity with him at work has me reeling. Saying how even when they were together they didn't do this. Lucy mentioning they didn't have a deadline of midnight before....I think she gave herself this deadline because, clearly, she wouldn't be able to stop if she didn't. There would be no way she could let him go if this wasn't enforced. She NEEDED to have an emotional boundary set.

It shows she isn't ready for reconciliation yet but is ok dipping her toe back in this way. You know she misses the physical connection they had. The writers made it crystal clear they had a very active sex life. (thank you writers for this btw) Of course she misses that side of it. She legit can't help herself. Moth to a damn flame. This is why she had them wait back in s5. She knew once they started they could not stop.

When she said 'Do you think it’s been long enough?' I thought 'Did they have an afternoon delight? And they are now passing the time to come back out by making out? Am I in a dream? Is this some crazy fanfic fever dream? ' I had to keep asking myself this. Also to pinch myself that Tim was just as damn eager to do this at work as her. Tim follow the rules Bradford enjoying carnal delights at work. Rules be damned if he gets to be with his girl. Definitely ok meeting her where she is at on this one. heh But for real Tim wanting to hookup at work on duty? Phew lord. The growth is crazy to witness I have to say. In the best way of course.

I adore Tim trying to extend their time together. Replying they could take a little more time....It's the cutest thing ever. My heart. Doesn't want to waste a second of this hall pass with her. Honestly he probably thought 7x06 was going to be it for a long time. So did I. But then the giving season gave me an episode of secret hook ups and flirting. *screams into a pillow* God I love this season you guys. I'm feeling very spoiled with this one. Lucy doesn't fight Tim's suggestion to stay longer. Is more than happy to dive back into making out some more. Look at her smile when he comes right back in for more kisses.

She is floating on air. As am I. *happy sigh* There's a great line from HIMYM. It's when Barney gets two bags of gummy bears for a buck, from the vending machine. 'It's Like, I don't even care what happens for the rest of the day.' That's Lucy in this moment. She is blissed out to the max. Doesn't matter what happens today. Her mood won't be ruined. Forever adore how handsy these two are when they kiss. Lucy has hers planted on his jaw. Tim's joining her face soon after. Resting on her shoulder because it doesn't make the whole journey. Lucy cutting him off. Saying they should get back to work....Doesn't seem like that's what you really wanna do though Luce lol

Lucy coming up with terrible reasons to get back to work. Like 'Things.' Her brain is so blissed out she can't even come up with proper terms haha This makes me so friggin happy. Lucy rights her ship just a bit and says 'crime'. Tim has zero interest in stopping crime atm....He begrudgingly lets her go and says if she insists....Following her lead just as he's done all season long. Lucy being cute and sassy af replying 'I do. I do insist.' I am heady off the cocktail that is our ship right now. Ship drunk and flying high myself. I love how he leans in before she leaves, and Lucy sweetly obliges with a quick kiss before they part.

Both smiling like the idiots in love they are as she does. It's the little things that always get me with these two. Always. Tim noticing she isn't public ready and tells her to fix her shirt. He tries to stop her but fails.. Her shirt being askew all but confirms they had work sex IMO. Not only that but never really straightened up from it. Holy crap… They messy in more ways than one. I love that out of the two of them she’s being the messy one right now. The more impulsive one. The one who isn't noticing her shit isn't squared away like she normally would. Her brain is flying sky HIGH on dopamine and sexy times that she isn't thinking straight.

The captain of her brain ship is drunk at the wheel and she is mighty fine with it. Horny for Tim Lucy is one I wouldn't mind revisiting again. Sweet lord. Of course it’s Celina who catches them. Her expressions are primo. I had 'Celina catches Chenford in the act.' on my bingo card. This isn’t what I pictured but nothing about this season is lol Curse my specificity though cause I said it would be at Lucy's. So I can only half cross it off. Maybe later this season? Could we possibly be so fortunate? Idk I might be getting greedy with that ha She doesn’t let them get off easy though as she shouldn’t. Tim saying ‘Ladies…’ hahaha my god he’s cute. I love him so much. *dreamy sigh*

We get one of my favorites as you all know. Field Chenford. They have chemistry to everything they do. The field is no exception. It's charged with it. It's when they are most in sync and share the same mindset. Well oiled machine in action. I just love it sfm. Now I love me some Field Tim as well. Mmmm. Why Metro Tim was so utterly attractive to me. Was Field Tim but even better cause he was running a whole team. Commanding things.

What I love so much is he's just so in control of everything and sure of himself. Dripping with confidence in what he's doing. I can never get enough of it. Also something about Lucy saying he will protect Livy did things to me. Things I can't properly write out but I was fanning myself. Clearly I find a man who can protect me very attractive. Mmm. Feral Caitlin was mighty pleased a couple times in this ep.

I LOVE Lucy having moment of hesitancy wanting to save Tim instead of Livy. Her gut reaction is to go to him. To protect her person at all costs especially in the field. She almost chooses him. Tim see's this and has to tell her to save Livy instead. *heart clutch* The trust between these two professionally is out of this world. After he tells her to go she just trusts he will be ok and will handle himself. That he's got this. That it's ok to leave him and go after her. Tim dispatches his guy shortly after.

Clearly someone told on them with Grey calling them out in the bullpen to his office. I mean it's not really that shocking they were caught by someone other than Celina.... There was a friggin officer walking by the room where they had their work hook up in. They also were happily giggling at a loud volume as well. It's like they wanted to be caught...

As subtle as a car alarm screaming out their 'prank.' repeatedly. Good thing pre-laid Lucy thought of this April Fools plan. Because post-sex Lucy's brain was shot LOL She was smart to have it in their back pocket if they were found out. To use it as an April fools joke to get their asses out of trouble. Which is exactly what she does.

Grey was pissssed though. His anger echoed through out that room. I felt it in my recliner lol .Good god she better get that promotion. That man was none too pleased with this development of their's. Once she comes down from her Tim sex-athon high she best get on studying for that for real. They are real cute with their smug smiles I will say. It's why Grey wants to rid them of it below.

Wade pranking them nearly killed me. I was low key thinking this was real. He acted a little too well. I'm with Lucy he scared me half to death for a moment though. His laughter always makes me happy though. It's so booming and joyful. You'd have to be dead inside not to enjoy it. Tim is none too pleased with this tactic.

Lucy looking in shock that just happened. Grey is enjoying his damn self afterwards. Saying it was worth it to wipe the smug smiles off their faces. Very cruel good sir LOL Telling them to remember this next time they wanna mess with him. Well done sir you got me.

Lucy looking every bit the bombshell as they step out of his office. Wearing the same outfit as the cold open. Proving she spent the entire night with him and had no time to change out at home. This thought makes me very happy. Also she is cool as a cucumber as they leave. Her plan unfolding exactly how she wanted it to. Not shaken in the least they almost got caught.

Man, constant secret sex with Tim is making her chill and decisive af LOL She knows down to the minute what time they have left. She is single-minded, as they all but race out of the station to get to his house and have one more round before this 'deadline' of theirs. Like they are legit racing. I’m surprised the camera could keep up with their in-sync lock step speed to have one more round.

Holy cow that woman wants her some Tim Bradford and vice versa. Tim is hot on her heels as they make their way out. Ready to be with his girl one more time before this deadline expires. He has so much pent up excitement he could pick her up and run them to his place easily. Especially after Lucy suggests they speed to get to their carnal destination faster. Can only imagine the explosion once they arrive there. Destroyed clothes and furniture would be my guess. This ep was extremely good to us. Sweet baby james....

Celina can't help but poke the bear as they all but run out of the station. Asking where they're going? Knowing damn well where they are going. They don't give her the time of day. Tim is already locked and loaded. He has nothing to say and let's Lucy dispatch of Celina. The wonderful thing is if Celina were to find out. She would keep their secret and be a wonderful confidante to Lucy. She is the Aaron of this situation on Chenford round 2 and I'm happy to have her.

I'm sure you're all probably wondering where this puts them? What does this mean? Well it means they messy for sure. Will this continue after this? I don't know how they go back to being 'colleagues'. after banging each other's brains out whenever they had the chance to this entire episode. If this does continue at some point will it be Tim to stop it? Because the man wants a relationship paired with all the physical goodies. Will it finally prompt the talk they need to have? Idk tbh. This season is a wild card in the best way. I'm delightfully surprised each week. I sure hope it prompts that talk.

I guarantee my perspective on this will be much different this summer. After the season is in hand. My in-depth ones might have a better answer then. I will say Lucy is fighting Tim still on some stuff. Like getting back together officially. She has been successful in fending that off, and failing on other things. Such as her physical draw to him. Like a moth to a blazing flame with that one. This is a step in the right direction as messy as it was. (and delightful as hell to watch) This entire season has been a slow thaw on her part. Tim slowly climbing his way back in. Each week is him making good on that promise he made to her in 6x10.

What I think prompted this whole thing was that shop scene at the end of 7x11. Why you ask? Well Tim being emotionally available and patient for one. Showing up for her constantly. Letting her know this new transparent Tim is here to stay. He has been building her up week in and week out. Even though she was very happy before with him. What he's doing now, this is something I'm sure she's always craved out of him. Something she was hoping they were headed to someday before they ended so abruptly. All this emotionally intimacy with him is igniting something in her.

It has revved her engine and she couldn't keep away from him any longer. I said couple eps ago Tim being changed, being open, and emotionally available was going to awaken her 'Why.' He continued on in '7x11.' and it instead of igniting her Why, it ignited her passion for him. One she has been trying so very hard to suppress. Craving that deep physical connection she can only get with him. Now, I've never been in love, but I can only imagine the heightened emotions during sex when you are, and how much better it must make it.

That is what she was really reaching out for here in this ep under the guise of a 'prank.' Wanted to have her cake and eat it too as it were. They can pretend all day long this was just a 'hall pass.' But no way in hell they aren't being emotionally charged during it all. I was talking to a friend about this, this morning and she had the best reply. That yes she was horny for Tim but the only person she was pranking with these hookups was herself. To think she isn't going to fall deeper in love with this transformed Tim...She's out of her damn mind. She already loved him but this is like taking a hot fudge sundae and making it even better with extra toppings. The toppings being change in this man she loves so deeply.

Whew *wipes brow.* Well hot damn I enjoyed writing about this one. Could not be more satisfied with this season if I tried. All the hiding and secrecy was worth this season. Worth the giddy excitement each week brings. THANK YOU x1000 to my incredible readers. Every like, comment (come chat with me on this one. how can you not? lets fangirl together) and reblogs means the world to me. They are the highlight of my week. I cannot wait to see what 7x13 has in in store for us. See you all then :)

Side notes-non Chenford

My wife is my bestie. Good man Wesley. You are a good one. Man loves his wife.

Hahaha Grey telling Nolan not to screw up an easy layup of a rookie. LOL He could ha

Heh having Tim come in and saying he takes TikTok. That it’s the worst of us LOL the irony I’ll love it. Sure Eric enjoyed that haha

Angela and Nyla getting a spa day haha well done ladies truly.

She used grumpy cop for the QR code. Oh my lord. Did enjoy him firing her stupid ass. Get her babe. What a dope to post such things.

Damn that kid lit Nolan up. Happens a lot my dude lol but I truly enjoyed his SL with him. Writers you've made me not bitch nearly as much about John. Miracle do happen.

I loved this scene so much. Tim don’t got time for her pleas. God damn I love this man. Didn't just make Lucy thirsty this entire ep...

[mysterycitrus]

Your opinions are sooo correct & sexy! I wanna know what you think about the switch of Roy being Dick's friend to (primarily) Jason's friend. Like in terms of both canon & fanon

(no pressure to answer though, just curious!)

ive talked about this before, so im not being facetious when i say that i don’t think there is anything remotely salvageable in the jason+roy relationship. i hate it.

when u consider current comic canon (that’s more or less tepidly reverted to post-crisis, pre-2011 canon), there is literally no reason why a freshly single father would be besties with his actual best friend’s 12yo brother. it’s profoundly unserious. even removing dick from the equation, in what world would roy be closer to jason than he is to ollie or donna or dinah or wally or jade or connor or mia or grant or vic or grace or literally any of the other titans?

i truly don’t think fans who like their relationship in that capacity care about roy, his history as a character, or his characterisation, because he is reduced to a demeaning, dehumanised depiction of any addict that is so totally divorced from his previous runs. how can u look at the roy harper that exists in rhato canon and not feel insulted that lobdell removed his family, his culture, his teammates, and his daughter in favour of making him swoon over jason? how is this a remotely egalitarian relationship when he exists to facilitate jason’s development and nothing else? how is roy treated with any respect by these fans?

the spiralling fanon vortex pulls everyone around roy in and ruins them by association. think about how unkind these interpretations of ollie are, or jade, or dick. how the actual important people in roy’s life, who love him and lian, are demonised to make room for jason. how unsympathetic the writing is to addicts, and how roy’s own addiction is switched as if different substances are interchangeable? how can u seriously engage with stories about sexual assault that posit roy as a slut-shaming, immature asshole who would seriously blame anyone for their own assault? it makes me so angry.

that’s even ignoring that roy would objectively not be cool with the things jason does, whether it be dealing, murdering people, or attacking roy’s own sister. roy has a moral backbone and isn’t afraid to be loud about it. there’s never been a team he was on pre-reboot where he hadn’t spoken up against shitty leadership or bad decisions — especially with dick. the difference in respect between dick and jason, where roy is allowed to be an adult with the titans and the outsiders and the league but is the team pet of the outlaws who can’t advocate for himself, is very stark.

it’s literally like if they decided to change kon to be damian’s best friend instead of tim’s, ignoring the age difference and their history together and any pre existing relationships. that’s how absurd the change was. that’s how much kon would have to be mischaracterised in order for that relationship to “work.”

jason could exist as an interesting contrast to roy, the same way he does to dick, but that would rely on roy being written well. it would have to mean they weren’t friends, that they weren’t close, and that jason wasn’t an actual part of his life, because that’s the only way they could exist together without roy being thrown on the fire to keep jason warm.

[heroesriseandfall]

Jason Todd & Chronic Pain

I scrounged for the panels I know from Rebirth about Jason still having lingering pain and injuries from when the Joker killed him. We know Jason had substantial injuries and brain damage when he was resurrected, and Talia healed that with the Lazarus pit. But here’s some I know of being mentioned even after Talia healed him with the Lazarus pit.

The first I know of is when evil future Batman Tim targeted Jason’s hip because of a Joker-related injury that he claimed would eventually become debilitating for Jason. This move does take Jason out of the fight so it definitely seems like evil Tim successfully aggravated the injury.

Detective Comics #968 (Jan 2018) — earlier in #966 Batman Tim also mentioned future Jason would eventually lose an eye and a leg while fighting assassins.

More recently, regular, not-evil Tim referenced it while evaluating how to fight a Clayface Jason mimic:

Tim Drake: Robin #3 (Jan 2023) — Tim says the pit brought Jason back, which has sometimes been a thing. Originally Jason was only healed by the pit after he’d already been resurrected by something else.

This next one was black label, so it may or may not be canon (the creative team claims “it’s up to reader interpretation” and disagree on whether they personally think it is canon). I’m not a fan of the comic but it did pretty clearly indicate Jason had chronic pain from the Joker:

Batman: Three Jokers #2 (Nov 2020)

(There might be more than these—my reading of post flashpoint comics is kinda random and incomplete compared to my reading of post-Crisis. In post-Crisis though I think they mainly put emphasis on Jason’s destabilized mental health and didn’t really bring up physical aspects IIRC. His brain damage seemed healed and yet he seemed more affected after the pit than other one-time-in-the-pit characters like Dinah Lance or Cass Cain were.)

They haven’t bothered explaining how the pit didn’t heal them so far as I know (the pits kinda work to authorial convenience anyway). My route is usually to blame any weird Jason stuff on the strange, multiversal circumstances of his resurrection, but versions of his origin where he’s only brought back by the pit might not jive with that (which includes some Rebirth IIRC).

In any case, I do hope more writers pick up on this more and I love to see when it’s expanded upon a bit in fandom. I would already consider Jason’s mental health to be a disabling issue for him but it’s neat sometimes to have writers recognize chronic pain-related issues among DC characters. (I’d love to also see more expansion of Bruce mentioning he experienced chronic pain…it pops up every so often but rarely if ever in depth.)

Alt text is copied and expanded upon under read more below.

ID 1: Two panels from Detective Comics #968 showing Jason Todd as Red Hood leaping to fight evil future Batman Tim Drake. Jason says, “Sorry, Timmy, I don’t believe in Santa Claus.” Batman Tim slams his staff directly into Jason’s right hip joint, sending him flying back, and says, “Jason. In a few years you were going to learn that one of your bones never set right after the Joker killed you. There’s a growing debilitating bone spur in your hip joint. There, I found it for you you’re welcome.” They’re both in the batcave.

ID 2: A cropped panel from Tim Drake: Robin #3 showing a red narration box for Tim Drake which says: “The Lazarus Pit may have brought Jason back from the dead, but he’s still sensitive where The Joker killed him.”

ID 3: A comic page from Batman: Three Jokers #2. A Joker leans in Jason Todd’s face, looking intense and serious. The Joker says, “Who is the Joker, really? We’re going to find out.” The word “out” is written in an extended sing-songy way. The Jokers put Jason’s Red Hood helmet over his head but they’ve decorated it with a wide Joker-style grin. The two Jokers laugh, then one says, “We’ve spent considerable time trying to best answer that question: who is the Joker? We found that judge. A serial killer. A surgeon. All rather predictable and uninspiring. And then there’s you. Tell me something. Why would you put on that helmet and call yourself Red Hood after what we did?” Jason, who is sitting naked tied to the wooden chair, says, “Come on. Is every one of you copycats gonna ask me the same thing? It’s a joke.” One of the Jokers holds up a crowbar as the other says, “A joke? We left you with brain damage and permanent nerve pain. Physical and emotional trauma so severe that the only relief you ever find is when you inflict pain on others.” The Joker holds the crowbar by Jason’s head. “You and me, boy…..We’re more alike than you’d care to admit.”

ID 4: A comic page from Batman: Three Jokers #2 showing Jason Todd with no shirt on and small bandages on various parts of his arms and face. He looks at a calendar on a wall and reads the crossed out days that have physical therapy sessions written on them. He sees a stack of various healing and exercise books. The top book is titled Chronic Pain Management by Dr. D. Kresan. He picks it up. Barbara Gordon as Batgirl enters a different, dark room through a window.

ID 5: A comic page from Batman: Three Jokers #2 showing Barbara Gordon as Batgirl entering her own bedroom. She says, “Jason?” She sees a book on her bed titled “Chronic Pain Management” by Dr. D. Kresan. Jason says, “Barbara?” and walks out of the attached bathroom with only a towel around his waist. Babs says, “I figured you’d left.” Jason says, “I hope it’s okay I used the shower and I…I didn’t mean to go through your things. The closet door was open and that book looked…useful.” Babs says, “It was. Are you okay?” Jason has small bandages and bruises on his face as he says, “I don’t think I’ve ever been okay.” Babs looks concerned. Jason continues saying, “What the Joker said…about how I’ve been on the path to being like them for years…they’re not wrong. I don’t want to be like them though. I really don’t. You believe that, right?” Babs says, “I’m willing to.” Then Jason says, “Can I ask you something?”

[willowswiththorns]

I see Marble Hornets and humbly ask for Masky, yandere or the nsfw alphabet whichever one you feel more comfortable writing I will graciously accept pleaseeeee!!!

Now usually I’ll do one or the other, but I’m a big fan of Masky/Tim. So I’m gonna do yandere this time since there’s not a lot of that. This will follow a bit under the Slenderverse ( marble hornets ) version of Masky and not too much into the Creepypasta Masky version. I’ll be picking some stuff out of both overall, but mostly leaning toward Marble hornets. Thank you sm for requesting! - Willow

Warnings :, slight dub-con( if you squint) , captivity , Stockholm syndrome, restraints, murder, stalking, minors do not interact

Masky/Tim Wright Yandere A-Z

YANDERE A-Z first

Affection: How do they show their love and affection? How intense would it get?

Masky and Tim equally don’t know how to show affection properly, so when it’s shown, it’s very very intense.

Masky mostly has a hard time emotionally speaking on his love towards you. You’ll mostly have physical contact from him. ( him holding you down and not letting you go)

Tim is the opposite side of the coin. He’s a bit awkward when it comes to showing physical affection, but he tries his best to show his love to you verbally.

Blood: How messy are they willing to get when it comes to their darling?

Masky has no problem with spilling blood if it means you stay with him forever. He’ll kill anyone that gets in his way from his goal, you.

Tim isn’t much for killing, he’s the type to not do it unless it’s a necessary action. I.e. self defense.

Cruelty: How would they treat their darling once abducted? Would they mock them?

I’ve seen a lot of fanfics where Masky is kind and caring. That’s not it here I’m sorry.

Masky is definitely the type to belittle and mock you while you are under his care. If you can call it that

Masky is more ruthless than most think. He will tie you down if need be. He doesn’t want you trying to run away from the cabin he’s hid you in.

If you are a fighter, he takes his time with you. He will knock you over and make you struggle to try and get up. He will force you to look at him whenever just to show you he is in control.

Tim isn’t going to mock you, in fact he feels a lot of guilt abducting you. He definitely tries to make up for the time his other side kicks in. He has little to no memory when Masky is in control, he only knows what happens when you tell him, or when Brian tells him.

Either way, Tim feels a lot of remorse for your situation, but it’s not like he’s going to up and let you go.

He secretly likes that you’re stuck with him, he’ll blame Masky for everything that goes wrong, but it’s not like he’s going to do anything about it.

Darling: Aside from abduction, would they do anything against their darling’s will?

Masky will take out any of his pent up frustration onto you ( sexually mostly) that or he’ll pull your hair just to make you tear up.

Tim does his best to respect any boundaries you set. The only one that he tends to cross is whenever he wants to hold you in his arms. This burly man just wants to feel you in his arms , and he can’t help himself.

Exposed: How much of their heart do they bare to their darling? How vulnerable are they when it comes to their darling?

Masky bares nothing to his love. He’s not even emotionally in check with himself, how would he be able to be open with his victim partner?

Tim has a lot of trouble opening up to his love, but all it takes is one time for him to tearfully open up about

Fight: How would they feel if their darling fought back?

Masky can and will rock your shit if you tried to fight him. He does not care one bit if you get knocked out or have a concussion after this match, this man fights to win.

Tim doesn’t want to deal with any fighting , the most he’ll do is to try and stop you from hitting him. He’ll grab your wrists or ankles to stop him from hitting or kicking him. A frown would be very apparent on his face as he’s asking you to stop trying to hurt him.

Game: Is this a game to them? How much would they enjoy watching their darling try to escape?

This isn’t a game to either of them. Both just want you to accept their love. Tim just wants you to accept their love and accept him as who he is while Masky doesn’t care if you love him or not, he just wants control over you.

Hell: What would be their darling’s worst experience with them?

Masky will put you through hell a lot. The most specific time where life was made a living hell for you was when you tried to run away. You got a good bit away from the cabin, but got envitably lost in the woods.

It wasn’t until you bumped into Brian, who picked you up and dragged you back to Masky.

Once Masky came back to the cabin after trying to find you, he waited for Brian to leave before dragging you to the back room.

He’d strip you down and put a chain around your ankle tightly. Letting you have just amount of length from the chain to roam around the empty room and to the bathroom.

He’d leave you in that dark back room to starve for a few days. It won’t be until the 3rd day that he lets you out, waiting for you to beg for food. Masky is petty enough to probably eat food in front of you just to make you angry. Of course once you apologize for running away and swearing to stay by his side will he finally give you food and unchain you.

Tim’s worst moment is when you tell him you hate him for the first time. He’d react negatively, not knowing what to say, he’ll just avoid you because he can’t handle the idea of you hating him.

Ideals: What kind of future do they have in mind for/with their darling?

Neither of them truly have an idea for the future, given their current position with the operator /slenderman, the future isn’t really guaranteed. Tim wants to atleast one day have a family with you.

Jealousy: Do they get jealous? Do they lash out or find a way to cope?

Masky definitely gets jealous, he tends to take out his jealousy onto you physically though.

Tim doesn’t take his jealousy onto you physically, he will get pouty and demand for reassurance that you love and need him.

Kisses: How do they act around or with their darling?

Masky is very cruel with his darling, his kisses are rough and feral. He doesn’t give you time to breathe and he doesn’t let you try to pull away either.

Tim wants you to feel safe and comfortable with him. He wants you to want to kiss him. His kisses are gentle and warm. His lips taste like smoke and coffee

Love letters: How would they go about courting or approaching their darling?

Masky doesn’t really court, he just hunts

Tim is more courting, he’s just awkward about it. He’d start by watching your routine, seeing what you like and dislike. He wants you to see him as the perfect suitor for you. He’ll try to bump into you at a coffee shop or a store you like.

Mask: Are their true colors drastically different from the way they act around everyone else?

They’re both the same around everyone else for the most part, except their affections are only for you.

Naughty: How would they punish their darling?

Masky will full on throw hands with you or isolate you.

Tim will scold you and at very very worse maybe lock you in both of y’all’s room if you’re acting up.

Oppression: How many rights would they take away from their darling?

Masky will take away a lot of rights from you. This man is all about having power over you. So little freedoms like walking around the cabin freely or maybe going outside even takes a lot of time to be given those rights back.

Tim doesn’t like taking rights away, but if you push him, you’ll lose a lot of rights . He’ll sorta gaslight you into understanding why your rights are being taken away for your own good.

Patience: How patient are they with their darling?

Masky has little to no patience. He’s not the soundest of men. He will snap and blow up on you if you act up.

Tim is more patient depending on his headspace. If he’s in a bad mood, he’s very short and snappy with you. If he’s in a good mood, he’s much more patient and understanding with you.

Quit: If their darling dies, leaves, or successfully escapes, would they ever be able to move on?

Masky will move on easily since he’s not really emotionally attached to you. Now if you ran away, he’d take pleasure in hunting you down. Just expect to be heavily punished when he enviably catches you.

Tim will not move on from you ever. He loves you and will blame himself if you die. If you run away, he’ll panic and call Brian for help in catching you. The imagine of these two men hunting you down can be very terrifying or very hot if you’re into a good chase.

Regret: Would they ever feel guilty about abducting their darling? Would they ever let their darling go?

Tim is the only one who feels regret. There would only be one time where his judgment would lapse and he would consider letting you go, but he’s quick to come to his senses and get rid of that option.

Stigma: What brought about this side of them (childhood, curiosity, etc)?

Definitely his upbringing, but definitely post Marble hornets can play a part in his fear of losing someone. So the fear of losing you could push him to abduct you. He just wants to protect you.

Tears: How do they feel about seeing their darling scream, cry, and/or isolate themselves?

Masky couldn’t care less. He won’t let you have any ounce of control when it comes to isolating yourself from him. He’ll tie you down before letting you get away with ignoring him. He enjoys hearing you scream and seeing you cry, he loves seeing your reactions.

Tim’s heart breaks a little anytime he sees you cry. He doesn’t like seeing you suffer any way, especially when he knows he’s playing a role in your suffering.

Unique: Would they do anything different from the classic yandere?

Masky is incapable of being a classic yandere. He doesn’t love you, he’s obsessed with you and wants to have control over you. He will kill anything you love just to have you.

Tim isn’t delusional, he knows what he’s doing is wrong, he just wants you reciprocate his feelings.

Vice: What weakness can their darling exploit in order to escape?

Tim’s weakness is his guilt over having you captive here and because he’s opened up about his past regrets ( Jay’s death) if you exploit that , there’s a slim chance where he’d let you have the option to go. Of course; he’ll instantly regret giving you that choice and try to take it back. If you run away before he does change his mind, that’s your free ticket out.

Wit’s end: Would they ever hurt their darling?

Masky would 100% hurt you just to make you scared. He wants to display that he is stronger and faster than you.

Tim will never willingly hurt you, he adores you too much to wish any sort of harm onto you. He tends to try and clean up any wounds you’d have after interacting with Masky.

Xoanon: How much would they revere or worship their darling? To what length would they go to win their darling over?

Masky doesn’t care about winning you over, he just wants you to fear him and let him have control over you.

Tim will try to win over your heart over and over again. He wants you to willingly be with him, and will actively try to show you that being with him is the best way.

Yearn: How long do they pine after their darling before they snap?

Both don’t take too long to pine after you. The part before they’d snap is longer solely because they’re spending time stalking you.

Zenith: Would they ever break their darling?

Masky will 100% break you if you push him too hard. He wants full control over you.

Tim will definitely not want to break you, he wants you to love him willingly

[saveahorserideaneddie]

Ryan is very talented. I think it’s sad that 911 doesn’t even utilize him properly. I know that’s not what you’re saying and I’m not trying to hijack that post you made about Ryan acting in movies, but all of the pre-season interviews and press were about Ryan, done by Ryan, and said that Eddie was going to go through all of this change and growth and struggle and learn about himself…. And that sounded so good!

And we basically got…NOTHING.

I mean really when you take a step back and look, what was Eddie’s storyline this season? Nothing happened to him or for him, really.

Also the fact that Ryan wasn’t getting scripts and was assuming he was being fired?? That…is so shitty. I don’t know what their contracts are like, and I know a consistent acting job and so hard to come by and it’s a privilege to be on a hit tv show, but damn. I wouldn’t blame him at all if he left.

IVE BEEN NEGLECTING MY ASK BOX THIS WAS FROM LIKE 2 MONTHS AGO ANON IM SO SORRY IM A TERRIBLE PERSON

but no literally like they built up his storyline so much, and featured him so heavily in press and promo leading up to 8a, hyping up all of the “big changes” he was going to go through and then just…. didn’t change anything…. they focused his entire 18 episode arc around something that happened in the last 2 episodes of s7 and didn’t even really make much of an effort for that to even really do much for his character

like some of the only episodes i really enjoyed from this season were disconnected and invisible, but neither of those episodes really told us anything new about eddie- just further reiterated what a great dad he is while implying that that was something he had to become (despite him already having been a great dad for the past 7 seasons)

and you’re so right sbout the script thing the fact that the first thing he thought when tim told him someone was getting killed off was that he thought it was eddie, it’s absolutely disgusting how he gets treated by the writers/production when he’s quite literally 1) a massive fan favorite, 2) sitting on top of a potential storyline that has the potential to exponentially improve the show’s success, and 3) one of the best actors they have in the cast

and he’s not the only underutilized cast member this last season, Tracie and Aisha were so robbed of good material left and right, and when they did get moments, they felt kind of out of place or rushed (i stand by the fact that the b plot of invisible should have been about Ravi, and not about Hen bc it would have made more sense, and Hen and Karen should have gotten their own standalone episode in 8b rather than wasting time on THREE multi-part disasters)

and the fact that they kept using ryan/eddie in PR for the season while giving him absolutely nothing of true substance… it’s made me learn not to trust them when they imply certain things because at this point, the only things that ever end up happening are the things in these interviews that make fans go “oh god i hope it doesn’t go there” (at least in my experience)

anyway thank you for the ask, nonny and again i am SO sorry it took me so long to respond I literally just looked through my inbox and saw so many asks that I’ve just completely neglected it’s so bad 😭😭

[zahri-melitor]

So, question i’ve toiled in my brain for a while now. Steph and Bruce’s relationship Pre-52, was generally pretty rocky, honestly Bruce from that era suffered due to how outright mean he was written at times.

It is hard for me to think of a bruce-steph dynamic that feels faithful, that wouldn’t have her realistically want nothing to do with him, due to all that’s happened. I can think of one-two nicer moments with them, that’s about it.

I don’t think that every batfam member should be on good terms with Bruce, I suppose the reason why I think Steph’s is so striking is due to how antagonistic Bruce is, how even when he lets her be Robin—it’s cut down so fast and so quickly. I can’t even think of a working relationship between them that wouldn’t be awkward, due to all that’s happened.

Apologizing for the tangent, you’re one of the most reliable voices I can think of for batman canon related things. My questions are this, how would you perceive a more positive dynamic between Steph and Bruce? Would you do retconning and rewriting if able to make that work?

There’s a few aspects in this:

One of Steph’s main character traits is how desperate she is for approval and recognition (this isn’t an uncommon dynamic for characters with Bruce. I’d have a hard time naming characters in Gotham who don’t fall into this dynamic on occasion). If she actually didn’t want anything to do with Bruce she would have stopped trying years earlier.

For a multitude of reasons, mostly ones outside the internal logic of comics, War Games probably no longer occurred exactly how War Games and particularly War Crimes is written, especially in respect of the details around Steph. It’s pretty much been trimmed down to “Tim stopped being Robin, Steph became Robin for a short period, then was fired for not following orders” in terms of what gets referenced. We do know that Scarab as a villain is still in continuity for Steph (thanks to Robins, so only probably not definitely main canon), but nobody has really been willing to address ‘did War Games still happen, and to what extent’. Basically, nobody has dug into ‘did Steph still cause a gang war’ because for the combination of both Doylist and Watsonian reasons it’s just easier not to address that question and skate over needing to answer, because as soon as you do it makes Steph a lot less sympathetic in terms of the rehab job various writers have been attempting for years; because Steph, in-universe, has never actually acknowledged any sorrow, guilt or belief in wrongdoing towards what happened to other characters during that period that was not expressed in the original story itself. Basically: either we have to acknowledge that Steph started a gang war AND that her ‘death’ is at least partly Bruce’s fault/blamed on him; OR if we absolve Steph from having any guilt here, we also lose anything people want to pin on Bruce out of this other than ‘fired her from being Robin’.

Now. If you remove War Games as the centrepiece of the Bruce-Steph conflict, what do you replace it with? And my argument is that The Victim Syndicate extended story arc is a compelling replacement that fits both Bruce and Steph’s personality traits well, and gives them a point of contention in their relationship that, importantly, shows both of them holding valid points.

I know. I know a bunch of Steph fans don’t like Tynion’s run because it uses Tim (and their loss of him) as the centrepoint around which Bruce and Steph define their relationship. But it’s also one of the few extended storylines Steph has had since Rebirth, and it’s the only one that has any serious dynamics between Bruce and Steph in it (Realistically, since Rebirth Steph has Tynion’s run, her appearances in Young Justice 2019, Mariko Tamaki’s Shadows of the Bat: The Tower, Batgirls, and then a handful of appearances here and there of varying quality like her Death Metal appearances to explain the costume flip).

Plus. The thing about Tynion’s run is that Steph’s arc through the entire story is about Steph questioning what it means to be a hero, and whether she wants to be one, particularly in circumstances where she feels Bruce has caused both her and other people’s problems. Steph doesn’t feel comfortable being a hero, because she blames Bruce for the harm that comes from his actions and from his vigilante work, and explores what other solutions there are to vigilante work: trying to help victims of crime via vengeance (the Victim Syndicate); Lonnie’s position that radical anarchist collectives are the was to build a better future; etc. She reflects her own origin of spoiling Arthur’s plans by spoiling and revealing Bruce’s plans.

Bruce and Steph fight over Tim, and which of them knew Tim better, and which of them understood his future plans better. And it’s a proxy for the fight they don’t want to have with each other, over what ‘following orders’ means and whether Bruce has the right to dictate them to Steph.

And then Tim comes back and Steph finds herself fighting with Tim himself because her answer and his answer to ‘what is the purpose of being a vigilante’ no longer match what she originally believed his answer to be. Because they’ve both grown and changed.

I find it a really compelling basis for Bruce and Steph’s modern relationship. Because they care about each other (Bruce going to find Steph after Tim dies is rooted in my brain) but also they both had to learn to give each other space and that they really do rely on having another person (Tim; Cass; Babs) as a buffer between them.

And while there are definitely Doylist reasons why we haven’t seen another story showcasing Bruce and Steph working together since then (Steph primarily appearing in stories full of other female characters because someone is ‘writing the girls’), I think it also offers the current and future direction of the Bruce and Steph relationship: they both know they don’t work as a partnership, but they can work as part of a team.

And that acknowledgement, to me, has a resemblance to the way that Bruce and Barbara have marked out territory between themselves: Babs doesn’t take Bruce’s nonsense anymore and hasn’t for years and WILL leave if he’s pushed her too far, but they came to an adult collegial relationship with each other and they work together smoothly the rest of the time.

Now, Bruce and Steph's working relationship is not as well grounded as Bruce and Barbara's. But that's where I put them. They don't so much focus on their relationship as on the fact there are a number of people simultaneously important in both their lives. And because of that, they need to be able to get along.

[ruestheday]

Wait, what mean thing did Alfred do to Tim on his 16th birthday??

oh boy

see, this is an instance where i’d be fine if people ignored this happening, because bruce (and therefore as an extension alfred) are like weirdly horrible. even doing my mandatory googling to make sure im remembering everything correctly quickly brought me to posts about everyone agrees how insanely ooc this was for both (even on reddit, which has some of the most comic-obsessed fans), but it still happened unfortunately.

so, for tim’s sixteenth birthday, bruce decides to gift him with surprise training.

tim has a birthday party, and at the end of the night there’s a weird box there. tim freaks the fuck out and takes it to bruce to check out, he does, blah blah blah.

it ends up activating when tim’s alone, and it’s a hologram of alfred in the (apocalyptic) future saying that someone on batman’s team has gone bad and the worlds fucked because of it (and then immediately gets shot and killed before he can finish). tim’s half like “well obviously this is bullshit” and half “HOLY SHIT ???!????” and doesn’t tell bruce because he’s not sure if it’s real or not.

i’m going to summarize, but tim thinks it’s fake at first, and then thinks it’s real (because the guy he was blaming it on was in jail) so he’s like ok cass goes bad (since she’s the newest batfam member — side note: cassandra predates damian as a batfam member so put some respect on her name) and when he decides it’s not cass he tries to figure out how it could be dick.

future!alfred then appears before tim and tells him that yeah he died, but it’s all chill they bring him back, and starts delivering more bad news until tim’s like ??? Ur not real! and rips off future!alfred’s mask to discover it’s just real alfred underneath.

tim’s immediately like upset and disgusted. he demands answer from bruce who is like “just training, get good kid” (and also implies tim is stupid bc he believed it) and tim is like Fuck this. Fuck all of you. I’m out. (he does eventually come back obviously)

he also gets to tell bruce to go to hell. now im a bruce wayne glazer but that was deserved because what the fuck

this is some crazy paraphrasing and i’m positive there are 10x better breakdowns out there. but long story short alfred helped gaslit tim drake into having a mental breakdown on his sixteenth birthday because bruce said to.

i also really don’t like this from bruce’s side because literally what the fuck was that. prime example of the 90s-2000s comic wanting bruce wayne to be a bad guy to appeal to angsty male readers (which was an actual phenomenon and explains a lot of why bruce is so batshit [ha] insane to his family during this era)

edit: this is 1993 robin #116-120 btw

[autisticrosewilson]

So I’ve seen some Jason fans talk about how even tho they like him they don’t agree with his kill policy and how at the end of the day his stance on killing is wrong and I don’t really get it. Is it because they’re applying real world ethics to it? Cause yeah obviously killing in real life is wrong, but in a fictional world where it’s been proven over and over that villains, rogues, and violent criminals will escape and cause more harm, he says only way to truly stop them is to kill them, I don’t see how he is wrong? Is it completely motivated by his personal experience with death? Yeah, absolutely. But so are Cass’s beliefs and everyone accepts her stance on killing as valid. I would really appreciate your perspective on it because I’m wondering if I am missing something given how many Jason fans I’ve seen with this opinion.

I totally agree with you! I'm a big fan of Jason being someone who believes that killing is necessary and moral, and that he's not even wrong about it most of the time.

I think what it comes down to is the percentage of people who don't actually read the comics. The people who think Jason should give up killing forever are either the younger "but liking characters who are bad people makes you bad!" Crowd or Batfam/fanon people who are willing to saw off any edges necessary to make all their blorbos fit together. Both of these people obviously run the risk of completely misunderstanding the character and the overall role Jason is meant to play narratively.

I won't put the blame entirely on the fans though, Jason has had a LOT of bad writing (Scott Lobdell when I get you) and the writers kind of hate him, so I think us Jason fans are kind of naturally pretty defensive about Jason because god knows he's been through the character assassination ringer.

Personally I think that if you genuinely can't stand a core and fundamental trait about a character, maybe you shouldn't engage with that character. Jason fans who want Jason to never kill again, to follow all of Bruce's rules, to forgive Tim for everything (shit talking him while he was DEAD), to be besties with Cass and what the fuck ever should just go read Stephanie's comics. It really does seem like she's the character you guys want. And not the happy go lucky ditz that fanon made up, I mean feral, compassionate, rebellious, insanely intelligent and witty canon Steph.

[elyvorg]

Kieran Part 1: It’s All About Strength

I’m a longtime Pokémon fan who happily plays through every mainline game, but I’ve never been more than mildly fond of the occasional character here and there, because Pokémon isn’t much for deep and nuanced character writing. Then I played The Teal Mask DLC and came out of it with many, many Feelings and Thoughts about Kieran – enough so that it warrants a full, juicy analysis about all of his subtleties and issues. I never expected I’d write one of these character analysis rambles of mine on a Pokémon character of all things, but here we are. Colour me surprised and impressed.

For anyone reading this in the future: this was written before The Indigo Disk came out and therefore only talks about the events of The Teal Mask. Assuming The Indigo Disk doesn’t completely drop the ball on the best character-writing job that mainline Pokémon has ever done (please; please don’t), there will probably be a Part 2 to this analysis coming in a few months. (Aaaaand here it is! But you should read this one first, of course.)

(I’ll be referring to the player character as “you” here for ease of wording, but rest assured, this doesn’t mean I’m accusing you the reader of any of the questionable ways the player character treats Kieran. I was also very annoyed at being forced to lie to him, believe me.)

His weakness, and your strength

Kieran is a kid gripped with a crushing sense of inferiority and weakness. We don’t see all of where this came from, although we get a pretty good idea of part of it – his sister. So many times when Kieran tries to protest against things and assert himself, Carmine snaps back at him for doing so. Over time, that kind of thing would have made him feel like he’s wrong for trying to stand up for himself, leading to him letting people walk all over him. I don’t want to give Carmine’s behaviour all of the blame for Kieran’s issues, though, because there’s bound to be more to it than that. I expect some of it also came from him being bullied and outcast during his time at Blueberry Academy – I hope The Indigo Disk gives us glimpses into what Kieran’s life there was like before all this.

As a result of feeling so weak and inferior, Kieran admires and idolises people he sees as strong. This becomes clear early on with how much he looks up to you just for being able to beat his sister, someone else he also sees as strong. Apparently, he couldn’t stop raving about how cool you were and how he wanted to battle you all evening back at home.

He doesn’t want you to know that, though, based on his protest when Carmine comes out and tells you so. Kieran's probably rather embarrassed for you to hear how much he idolises you, after all. He also seems to think his request for a battle would be annoying and a bother – he says “You don’t mind?” in surprise when you accept, even though asking people for battles is supposed to be just what trainers do. Why would a strong trainer like you want to waste your time battling someone weak like him?

Kieran’s comment in the battle if you land a super effective move is also very telling: “Oof, ehehe… I guess I got a lot of weaknesses…” He tries to play it off as light-hearted, but, hm, that sure is A Way for a rival character to comment on you knowing about type matchups. And he most certainly does not seem to agree with his sister when she says he’s almost as strong as her.

(Fun fact: the game actually lets you lose the first battle with each sibling while still continuing the story. If you lose to Kieran in that first battle, he assumes you were holding back against him, as if that’s the only reason he’d ever be able to beat anyone. Perhaps he’s experienced people holding back against him out of pity before – maybe Carmine used to?)

He's flustered when Carmine partners him up with you, too, even though you’re the only option that he has at least a vague rapport with now – he’s still assuming someone cool like you wouldn’t want to waste any more of your time on him than you have to. Kieran worries he’ll “get in your way” if he sticks with you, so he hangs back and stays well out of your way instead. It’s a cute way for the game to justify him not actually following you around in the gameplay even though he’s supposed to be following you according to the plot, but it also just makes perfect sense for Kieran’s character. This is a kid who constantly tries to take up as little space as possible because he’s convinced that nobody wants him around. And it’s important that he seems to feel especially this way towards the people he looks up to (with the exception of Carmine, because she’s family and he spends most of his time with her already).

Then there’s the scene where he meets Koraidon/Miraidon. At first, I assumed it was there to introduce Kieran to our lizardbike friend because they’d be relevant later somehow. But they’re not! So the only reason this scene exists at all is for the purpose of illustrating to Kieran that, in his words, “you’re special”. You are A Protagonist, capable of befriending super special, rare, strong Pokémon with ease. (Just like a certain other special legendary Pokémon you’ll be meeting soon, how about that.)

Admiring the ogre

So, as you begin the trip to visit the signboards about Kitakami’s legend, Kieran starts to open up about how much he likes the ogre. Perhaps he feels safe telling you, because you’re an outsider and won’t frown upon him for it like the locals are prone to do. He probably gets that from them a lot and has learned not to bring up the ogre in town – another thing that makes him feel left out.

Even so, Kieran starts from the angle of “it’s so strong and cool because it won one-on-three”, since that’s a more acceptable reason to like the ogre that doesn’t question the validity of the legend, and is less personal to his issues. If you agree with him that the ogre sounds cool before he’s explained why he thinks so, he responds with “I knew you’d get it!” – you, who’s also really strong and cool, would obviously recognise that same strength in the ogre right away, right?

If you’re sceptical at first instead, he stresses that “it was all alone!” and still managed to hold its own – the more personal side of the reason he likes the ogre coming out just a little. By the second signboard, Kieran’s gotten a bit more comfortable with you, enough to start touching on that more deliberately. He mentions that it’s shunned, and that he likes its strength because he admires that and wishes he could be that strong himself.

Then he invites you to see the ogre’s den, something completely unrelated to the purpose of the school trip, because he trusts you enough to feel sure that you’ll get what he’s trying to illustrate about the ogre there. He points out that it seems like a lonely, miserable place to live, and that he’d happily let the ogre stay at his house if it wanted. He’s not quite explicitly saying so, but Kieran clearly empathises with the ogre because he relates to that kind of loneliness. Though he doesn’t want to outright say that the legend is wrong and the ogre isn’t actually the bad guy – maybe he’s got backlash from the villagers before for suggesting it –  he's got to believe that to be the case.

(I’ve seen one or two people suggest that Kieran fawning over the supposed bad guy in the legend is an early hint to his potential for darkness, but I really don’t think that’s it. There’s plenty of reason for Kieran to relate to and see the sympathetic side of the ogre in the story due to his own status as a social outcast, without it needing to be a case of “he just likes bad guys because he’s Edgy”.)

Later, at the festival, Kieran has a quiet chuckle to himself when Carmine’s talking about the Loyal Three being heroes, and says it’s funny that she doesn’t know anything about the ogre. Then he conspicuously changes the subject when she implies that it’s just that he likes edgy bad guys, because that’s not it – but at least now he has someone who does get it. Carmine mentions later that she feels Kieran is trying to one-up her about the ogre, and maybe this is true. Perhaps this is one small way in which he can privately feel superior to his sister, because he’s more right than her, or than anyone in the village, about the ogre’s true nature. And while that’s more due to luck and a large helping of projecting his own issues onto it than out of any genuine inside knowledge of the truth, Kieran is the one person who understands the ogre best.

Or, at least, he understands it best… for the most part. Because there is one very key way in which Kieran is actually thoroughly wrong about what Ogerpon is truly like.

Misunderstanding the ogre

This begins to be apparent at the second signboard, when Kieran’s gushing about the ogre’s coolness and says “it didn’t even care when everyone shunned it”. From meeting Ogerpon later, we know that this is patently not true about her – she’s terrified of humans because of how they see her, so really she hates being shunned! But Kieran doesn’t imagine that to be the case about her, even though he empathises with her presumed loneliness and is basically projecting his own onto her. He sees the ogre as somebody who is shunned and alone, like he is, but who, unlike him, is strong enough to not let it get to them. Someone in the same bad situation as him, but with strength that he only wishes he could have to deal with it.

In that same conversation at the second signboard, Kieran then goes on to talk about how his sister always does everything for him, and he’d like to become stronger and more independent and reliable. And, “then, just maybe… I could be that ogre’s friend.” As if he doesn’t think he’d deserve to be Ogerpon’s friend unless he was already strong, just like she is.

He mentions a couple of times that he comes to the Dreaded Den a lot but has never once seen the ogre, which might seem a little strange at first. Obviously Ogerpon kept well hidden from him because she’s scared of humans – but, did Kieran never try to call out to her? To tell her that he’s not afraid of her, that he admires her strength and she must be lonely and hey, maybe they could be friends? If he had, then surely over time, Ogerpon would have grown to trust him and shown herself – so apparently, Kieran never did try to call out to her in an attempt to befriend her. Because he felt he wasn’t worthy of her friendship, not when he’s so weak, so inferior to someone as strong and cool as her. (A lot like how he wouldn’t have had the courage to tell you how much he admired you, if his sister hadn’t blurted it out for him.)

While you’re visiting the den with him, Kieran assumes that “a powerful ogre like that would only show up if it heard some kinda battle”, leading to him challenging you again. Since he admires the ogre for its strength, he’s assuming that the ogre also values strength just as much if not more than he does, which really isn’t necessarily true about Ogerpon!

During the battle, Kieran says he’ll “put up a good fight” this time. Which is to say, he still feels so thoroughly outclassed by you that he isn’t remotely expecting or even trying to win – he just wants to at least not go down quite as pitifully as last time, not when he’s potentially being watched by his idol the ogre. And when he loses (the game requires you to win this and all future battles against him), he laments how he’s ever going to be able to beat you, and then he muses, “If the ogre saw that battle, I’m sure it’d be thinking, ‘That kid’s got some real strength…’” He is assuming that Ogerpon would like you, far more than she’d ever like him, because of how strong you are. This is very important.

(As it happens, Ogerpon was secretly watching that battle, but as for whether she’s actually thinking what Kieran imagines she is about your strength – who knows?)

Friendship! Or is it…?

By the end of the den visit, Kieran has just enough confidence to invite you to the Festival of Masks, and to his own house to get ready to go together, which there’s no way he’d have been able to do at the start of the day. He’s so surprised but thrilled to hear that you consider yourself his friend – based on that and his grandparents’ reactions, you’re likely the first friend he’s ever made, which would not be surprising. It’s lovely watching this shy but sweet kid actually smiling and feeling comfortable around you and happy to have someone he can call a friend for the first time ever. And GHHHH it is so painful in hindsight knowing where things are headed.

Even with you calling yourself his friend, though, Kieran still feels inferior to you. He dejectedly offers to give you his mask for the festival when you find yourself without one, even though it’s the ogre mask, his favourite, his thing – because he instinctively feels that if anyone should be the one who gets left out, it should be him, like always, and not you.

The whole time, Kieran’s bound to be feeling thoroughly insecure about this new friendship. The idea that he’s actually made a friend, and not least someone as cool as you, likely feels far too good to be true, more than he deserves, and I suspect he might be constantly waiting for the other shoe to drop. When he mentions to Carmine that you’re coming to the festival with him, her response is vaguely evasive, and Kieran responds to that in a very prickly, defensive way. It reads to me like he thinks Carmine is jealous of him befriending you before her, and that he’s afraid she might try to take you away from him as a result. Whether that’s actually true or not isn’t really the point (I think Carmine might indeed be a little jealous, but she would not do something that deliberately malicious) – what matters is that Kieran believes this may be the case and is liable to view all further interactions with you and Carmine in that light.

Then, at the festival, Carmine pressures Kieran into playing Ogre Oustin’ even though he doesn’t really want to. She’s probably doing this in an attempt to encourage him to have fun, but since he doesn’t find it fun (because he doesn't like this game where he's pretend-killing the ogre!), it’d be easy for him to feel like she only did it because she wanted him out of the way so she could hang out with you. And it’s while Kieran’s doing that that you and Carmine meet Ogerpon without him. Of course, that’s nothing but pure unlucky bad timing – Carmine had no idea Ogerpon was about to show up – but from Kieran’s point of view, with his obvious history of being maliciously left out of things by others, it’s easy for him to feel like there was some deliberate element to it.

At first he doesn’t know it has anything to do with Ogerpon, though. But still, when he gets back from Ogre Oustin’ and asks what you two were up to, Carmine abruptly shuts you up before you can speak and is blatantly hiding something – which Kieran takes to mean that you were laughing at him behind his back. That’s something else he must get a lot, for him to be automatically assuming it’s happening here. Really not so far off from his fear that his sister’s going to try and take you away from him, either.

Carmine’s lie isn’t done out of any malice – she is genuinely trying to protect her brother from feeling bad over being left out of meeting Ogerpon – but she sure is doing so in a way that’s going to make him feel even worse over being left out on purpose once he realises the truth. Carmine does care about her brother in theory, but this girl has zero social brain cells. And we the player are forced to play along with the lie whether we want to or not, which awkwardly turns our player-insert character into a very specific kind of character who would do so. I guess they either also have zero social brain cells, or they’re kind of a doormat who’s swayed by a forceful personality like Carmine’s. This part is frustrating, but I have to accept it because of the delightful things it does to Kieran’s arc, which really is the important part here.

Learning of the lie

The next morning, it seems like Kieran’s largely managed to brush off the weird bit last night where you and his sister were maybe laughing at him behind his back, because he greets you with a smile, ready to go see the last signboard. And then Carmine… forcefully demands that he finds somewhere else to be, because you’ve got business with her. Kieran protests that it’s not fair that you’ve been spending all your time with her lately – score two for his fear that she’s trying to take you away from him – and when she snaps back at his protest like always, he runs off.

But he doesn’t run off that far, because he stays close enough to listen in on the conversation. The discussion of Ogerpon’s story goes on for long enough – and takes long enough to get to the important part – that Kieran pretty much has to have stayed to eavesdrop on purpose, which is a little sketchy of him. Still, I can’t blame him all that much, what with his background of being mistreated, and the way Carmine’s behaviour gives him ample reason to be afraid there’s something going on here – of course he’d have wanted to know for sure. Perhaps he was even trying to hope that listening in would prove that you’re not actually hiding something bad from him and he was just being paranoid.

Except that actually, it turns out the truth is so much worse than Kieran had feared. Never mind just laughing at him – you and Carmine met the ogre without him and then hid it from him as if he didn’t even deserve to know. And, as if that wasn’t bad enough, it then turns out that he was right all along about the ogre being a good guy, and his own grandpa didn’t even think it was worth telling him that, and now you’re still just going to keep lying to him about it all and leaving him in the dark.

(Really, I have to side-eye their grandpa a lot more than Carmine here, because he’s a grown dang adult and has so much less excuse. He says he’ll tell Kieran the truth “when the time is right”, but what does that even mean? The “right time” would be right now! Heck, it should have been the moment he realised that Kieran had already intuited the truth!)

And all this being lied to and shunned and left out of things (like always) stings even more for Kieran because it’s coming from someone he’d thought was his friend. He’d actually dared to hope that someone – and not just anyone, someone really cool and strong – actually wanted to be friends with him? Of course that was too good to be true. Why would someone as cool and strong as you have ever wanted to befriend a weak loser like him, anyway? (After all, cool strong people only ever want to be friends with other cool strong people; that’s how it works, right?)

Probing about the lie

The correct thing for Kieran to do with this situation would have been to simply come right out and confront you about the lie. But of course he doesn’t have the courage to do that. He’s far too used to being shot down whenever he tries to assert and stand up for himself (no thanks to Carmine). And since he only learned about this because he was eavesdropping, it’s easy for him to imagine having that turned against him, and the whole situation being treated like he’s the one in the wrong for doing that.

Still, it seems like Kieran might want to at least indirectly give you the opportunity to tell him the truth. He heads off to the village shop to act like he was there the whole time, and then casually asks you what you were talking about back there. He’s maybe trying to hope that you don’t really want to lie to him and only got swept up into doing so by his sister’s forcefulness, and that you’ll tell him everything now that she’s not here, because, you said you were his friend, right? Later on, too, at the third signboard, the way Kieran brings up that his family is descended from the mask maker feels suspiciously relevant, as if he only thought to do so because he overheard the story and is trying to give you a chance to go, “Hey, speaking of that mask maker, actually…”

But no. It sure seems like you’re very deliberately choosing to keep him in the dark. As such, he’s bound to be feeling extra small and awkward at the signboard, just wanting to “get this over with” and be done spending time with you, because you clearly don’t want to waste any more of your time with him than you have to, right? The awkwardness of the third signboard photo, with Kieran obviously not wanting to be there, and your character’s very strained thumbs-up, is heartbreaking in comparison to how cute and happy the first two were.

During the conversation there, Kieran mentions the ogre being alone and treated like an outcast in a way that is very clearly also talking about how you and Carmine are treating him right now. The game pointedly lingers on his response to your comment, regardless of which dialogue option you choose. If you agree that that sounds awful, he says, “You think so too, huh?” – you think that it’s bad to treat someone that way, and yet, you sure are treating him that way anyway. If you instead mutter an awkward apology, Kieran asks, “For what?” This could read like he’s calling you out for not being able to admit to what you should be apologising for, but actually, I’m not sure that’s it. It could also be him genuinely asking that, because he doesn’t realise you need to apologise for anything. Hold this thought, I’ll go into it more in a bit.

It's because he’s weak

The other thing that happens at the third signboard is Kieran challenging you to another battle. He doesn’t really explain why, but I suspect he’s hoping that if he wins and proves his strength to you, you might just tell him the truth, or at least it’ll give him the courage to confront you about your lie. This is the first battle in which he says he wants to win and is actively trying and hoping to do so, rather than just accepting his loss before he’s even started. His optimism is pretty fragile, though, as he laments “it wasn’t supposed to go like this” if you hit him super-effectively, and “why does it have to be like this?” when he’s down to his last Pokémon.

But of course, he loses, just like he must secretly have been expecting to all along (how could he ever beat someone as strong as you?). And so he concludes, “it’s all ‘cause I’m too weak” – not just losing the battle, but everything. Why he’s always left out and shunned by everyone, why you lied to him and went behind his back about something you knew was important to him – it’s because he’s weak. He was battling you to try and prove that he’s stronger, strong enough to deserve better than that… but of course he isn’t.

A particularly important little subtlety is that he mutters “That’s why I…” – because it would have been easy to expect this line to say “you” instead. That you lied to him and shunned him because he’s weak, that it’s your fault for choosing to treat someone weak like this. But Kieran isn’t framing it that way. He’s thinking of it as his fault, simply for being weak, and that’s why he will always inevitably be treated like crap by everyone around him. As if that’s nobody else’s fault for choosing to do that, but simply the natural way of things when someone’s weak. As if he deserves this for being weak.

(So: what are you sorry for? You shouldn’t be sorry for anything; it’s his fault, isn’t it? Someone as strong and perfect as you could never be conflicted or in the wrong.)

By the end of this signboard visit, Kieran’s leaving on his own, saying that he’s got to get stronger with his Pokémon. All of this is happening because he’s weak, so he needs to be stronger – and apparently, that means “strength in Pokémon battling”. In reality, even if he did become the best battler out there, that wouldn’t necessarily make him any better at standing up for himself in social situations or being independent and reliable in other ways, but he’s very much conflating the different kinds of strength. This probably has a lot to do with his schooling at Blueberry Academy, which teaches Pokémon battling, leaving him overly focused on battling strength as the only kind of strength that matters. Perhaps he was picked on at school because he wasn’t very good at the battling classes, which wouldn’t have helped. I hope we see some glimpses of this in The Indigo Disk.

And on the topic of Kieran fixating on getting stronger at Pokémon battling: his Furret is never seen in his team again after this point. It was one of the first two Pokémon he used against you, so it’s presumably one of his closest Pokémon partners, which makes it heartbreaking that he ditches it from his team because, clearly, it’s too weak. Even worse, he’s inflicting being left out and shunned on someone else – someone he probably cared about – precisely because it’s weak. That’s just what happens to people who are weak, right? Guh. Poor Furret.

Outburst at Loyalty Plaza

Kieran most likely spends the next 24 hours alternating between fervently training as hard as he can, and stewing in his feelings of loneliness and rejection and betrayal. His grandpa mentions that he spent that night in his room after not even eating dinner, which, yeah, when he’s sharing a house with two of the people who are lying to him, not surprising. Oof. And more than just pain and betrayal, he’s got to be feeling so much anger, anger which he’s never been able to truly express, because every time he tries to stand up for himself he always gets shot down – but that only makes the suppressed anger worse.

The correct thing to do would have been for Kieran to confront everyone calmly about the lie as soon as he became aware of it. But because he couldn’t just do that, his resentment festered inside of him with no real outlet, until finally it becomes unbearable and explodes out of him and he has to do something to express it, no matter how questionable. So he steals the Teal Mask and runs off with it.

I don’t think Kieran actually has much of an idea of what he’s going to do with the mask. The one logical thing would have been to give it back to Ogerpon himself, but that can’t be his intent, because he doesn’t go anywhere near her den with it. And I highly doubt he’s planning to break it or anything like that, since he’d never do something that’d hurt Ogerpon. Really, I think he just wants you and Carmine to notice and acknowledge what he’s going through and what you’ve done to him – and if he steals the mask, you’re going to have to confront him to get it back.

He heads to Loyalty Plaza in particular because he’s conflating his own situation with Ogerpon’s. In amongst his pain and anger at the way he’s being treated, he’d have also been feeling a lot of anger at the injustice of how Ogerpon was and is treated, because he was right all along that she was never the bad guy, but she’s shunned undeservedly while the “Loyal” Three are lauded as heroes. Even though this outburst from Kieran is really all about his own situation, he makes it about Ogerpon first, because that’s easier for him to openly be angry about. He only brings up his own treatment as a comparison to how Ogerpon is treated like an outcast, as if the only way he can frame it as wrong in his head is by comparing it to something that’s definitely wrong. (After all, he deserves to be shunned because he’s weak – but Ogerpon didn’t deserve any of it, because she’s so much stronger!)

During Kieran’s outburst, Carmine blurts out an apology on realising that she’s hurt him – but Kieran basically just ignores it and continues to vent. Which tells us something interesting: that Kieran never did this out of any attempt to get you and Carmine to apologise for lying to him. If he’d wanted that, he’d have reacted in some way when Carmine did just that. So I think, in keeping with Kieran’s belief that all this is his fault for being weak, he doesn’t actually think you two need to apologise for anything. He’s lashing out because he’s angry and in pain and doesn’t know how else to deal with it, but he’s not consciously thinking that you and Carmine are in the wrong.

He’s also still holding onto the idea that you and Carmine were just laughing at him behind his back, which is of course not true, but when Carmine tries to say that, Kieran snaps back that she’s a liar. Given that she undeniably has lied to him about one very important thing, of course Kieran would find it easy to believe that she could be lying to him about anything and he can’t trust any reassurance she gives him. This poor kid must have such a history of being mistreated and patronised by others to jump to assuming things like this.

Lashing out with a battle

Then Kieran challenges you to another battle, promising to give back the mask if you win. Since there’s no way he is truly expecting to be able to beat you, this means that he never really intended to keep the mask forever. But he also doesn’t just want to seem like some weak pushover who’ll roll over and give in as soon as he’s confronted, so he at least wants to make you fight him for it. And based on his line at the beginning of the battle – “I know this isn’t right, but… I can’t just hand over the mask to you!” – he doesn’t want to just give up one of Ogerpon’s possessions so easily to someone who treated him like an outcast the same way those villagers back then treated Ogerpon.

Really, I think the battle – and the notably forceful way he asks for it, unlike the previous times – just comes a lot from Kieran’s anger, and his need to externalise it somehow. He even insists that he needs this battle, if you’re hesitant about accepting the challenge. There’s probably a part of him that wants to lash out with physical violence, maybe punch you or something, but he knows that’s wrong and that it’d look pathetically impotent of him anyway even if he tried. Happily, this world has a socially-accepted form of violence-by-proxy instead, so Pokémon battle it is!

As for the battle itself, Kieran’s switched up his team some more, removing Furret as previously mentioned, and adding two new members instead of just one like the previous times – but the Cramorant he uses here doesn’t stick around either. This is less sad to me than Furret, though, because he wouldn’t have been very close to it. Cramorant may even have been taken onto the team with the condition of “I’m trying out new team members to see who’s strong enough”, at which point ditching it is less of a betrayal and more of it simply failing a job interview.

(Meanwhile, the other newcomer, Gligar, clearly impressed Kieran a lot with its strength, as it becomes his ace for the final fight. Fitting that his ace there is not a long-time partner, but one obtained only after he began to fixate on getting stronger.)

He’s also more openly determined to win (despite his suppressed conviction that he could never beat you), and remains more optimistic than before even when things aren’t going so well for him. In fact, this is the only battle in which Kieran has lines for hitting you with a super effective move or a critical hit. That said, he’s still a little insecure, based on an optional line: “I need to get this right… I’m gonna make sure to give the right commands!” which tells us that he feels like his losses are his fault for making mistakes and choosing the wrong moves, rather than blaming his Pokémon for not being strong enough. He also has an absolutely great comment in this battle if you land a critical hit, which I have to highlight: “What can’t you do? You’re like the hero in a story…” It’s purely luck, but despite that, he’s seeing you as this impossibly perfect hero that he could never ever measure up to, and this delights me.

Losing the battle just seems to make Kieran’s frustration at his own inferiority even worse, to the point that he does indulge in some physical violence, towards the shrine. Which is as pathetic as he must have been expecting, and should in theory have been harmless enough. (Of course, it appears that this is what somehow resurrects the Lousy Three, but there is no way Kieran expected or wanted that to happen, so he can’t be blamed for that.) Then he gives the mask back, just as he promised he would, and (ignoring another attempt by Carmine to apologise – again, this was never about that to him) he runs off back home.

So I find it really hard to condemn Kieran for… any of his actions here? Sure, he stole the mask, but he didn’t do anything bad with it and gave it back just fine (and must have always been intending to). All he was doing was lashing out – unhealthily, but basically harmlessly – over the really very callous way you and Carmine had been treating him. And if he hadn’t done this, you two would probably never have told him the truth about Ogerpon, and he’d have remained out of the loop and never met her at all! That would have been awful!

And yet: making you and Carmine bring him into the loop about Ogerpon and getting the chance to meet her is also not something Kieran was aiming for here. Just before leaving in a sulk, he says, “Say hi to the ogre for me” – which means that he never expected to get to meet it himself. He is still, even by the end of this confrontation, labouring under the belief that you and Carmine don’t want him there with Ogerpon and that he doesn’t deserve to meet her at all.

Apologies, and a lack thereof

After you rescue Ogerpon from being bullied by the resurrected Lousy Three, Carmine shows up with Kieran in tow. Apparently she found him moping around at home and dragged him here to apologise to you about his stunt with the mask. Which, yes, does warrant an apology – but what really frustrates me about this part is that Carmine doesn’t apologise for what you and she did wrong. Sure, she blurted out a couple of cut-off apologies back at Loyalty Plaza, but those never had the intended effect when Kieran was in no emotional state to accept them. Here and now, he’s calmed down enough that he would be able to take on board an apology… but Carmine doesn’t give one. It’s possible that she already apologised at home before bringing him here, but if she’d done that, then she really ought to have got you to also apologise for lying to him, and she doesn’t – so I can only assume that didn’t happen. And you the player can choose to apologise to Kieran here anyway, but since it’s optional, it’s not given nearly the attention it deserves.

Since Kieran never gets a proper apology while he’s in a state to listen, it means he never actually ends up internalising the fact that you were in the wrong to lie to him and he didn’t deserve to be treated that way. Which would have been a really, really important thing for him to realise! As it is, he continues to quietly assume that all of this is his fault for being weak, with nobody to tell him that this way of thinking is flawed.

It's frustrating, but I do kind of get it, from Carmine at least, because she’s also a pretty flawed person. Her deal seems to be that she’s only able to be emotionally sincere in uncontrolled outbursts when she’s worked up, and when she’s calm she covers up her true feelings with bossiness and vanity. Which makes her not at all capable of apologising to Kieran when he’s in a calm enough state to be capable of registering it. These siblings’ issues do not mesh well. Still, here’s hoping that Carmine’s able to self-reflect enough to acknowledge her partial responsibility for Kieran’s suffering by the end of The Indigo Disk.

She does seem to realise her mistake here enough to make a point of trying to include Kieran in their Ogerpon adventures from here on out, at least. But it’s too little too late in terms of how Kieran views things. He seems to have assumed that Carmine dragged him here only to apologise, and not to properly meet Ogerpon or be involved in helping her out, because he expresses surprise when Carmine casually includes him as part of the Mask Retrieval Squad. He was expecting to be shunned and left out as always – what do you mean, she wants him there?

Meeting Ogerpon

The only interaction Kieran was expecting to have with Ogerpon here was giving the fixed-up mask back to her, because he wanted to be the one to do so – but she shies away from him when he offers it. Carmine comments that she’s probably scared of new people, and this is likely the truth, but Kieran’s silent response suggests that he’s not necessarily agreeing with that assessment. Remember, from earlier: Kieran is convinced that Ogerpon values strength. And he’s so used to being shunned by others, especially strong people, because he’s weak. It would be very, very easy for him to come to the irrational conclusion that the reason Ogerpon refuses him is because of his weakness, even though his sister’s suggesting something else.

Despite Kieran’s key misconceptions about Ogerpon’s values, he does continue to understand her better than most people in certain ways. When you try to head into town with her, Kieran’s the one to point out that she’s probably afraid to go in because of the way she’s been treated by the townspeople. He also comments that she’ll feel safe going to retrieve the masks from the Three as long as she’s with you. He empathises with that insecurity and social anxiety enough that, seeing it from Ogerpon in person, he can instinctively see that’s the case about her too.

And yet… seeing Ogerpon’s fear, and understanding that she’s scared of being shunned just like him (which he previously said the ogre didn’t care at all about!), doesn’t actually change the part of Kieran that is also irrationally convinced that she only cares about strength. There’s no moment in which he seems to be re-evaluating Ogerpon or realising anything new about her upon seeing her being afraid. The part where she’s shy and afraid, and the part where she’s strong and cool and therefore values strength in others, manage to be separate enough in his mind that he never actually cross-references them to realise that one of these surely can’t be as true as he thinks it is. So his false conviction that things are about strength to Ogerpon still remains, unchallenged.

Staying behind

Then, even though Carmine is making an active point of trying to include him, Kieran… chooses not to come with you on the mission to retrieve the masks. This is despite the fact that this’d be his best chance to spend time with Ogerpon and hopefully get her to warm up to him, which you’d think would be his priority when he’s quietly hoping to maybe have the chance to become her partner.

But even though it would be a logical choice for Kieran to come with them, it makes perfect sense to me why he doesn’t. As far as he sees things, you and Carmine are way stronger than him and already have the fights against the Three covered – he’d be nothing but a useless third wheel hanging back, only there out of Carmine’s pity for him and not because he’s needed. And in terms of Ogerpon, Kieran is the kid who visited her den countless times but never had the courage to call out to her and ask to be friends. Of course he knows he wouldn’t have the confidence to actually try and get closer to Ogerpon, especially not when she’s already got someone she likes (someone who’s strong while he’s weak, which is clearly what matters to her, right). He knows he’ll just spend the whole time watching Ogerpon obviously like you way more than him while not being able to do a thing about it, and it’ll just make him feel even more jealous and left out.

(Trust me, as someone with social anxiety who spent a lot of my childhood being low-key outcasted by my so-called friend groups, I get it. When you’ve lived like that, integrating yourself with new people can feel downright impossible, no matter how much you may want it.)

So Kieran doesn’t come on the mission – but it’s not like he just uselessly sulks around, either. He spends the time doing something else to help Ogerpon, something neither you nor Carmine seemingly thought needed to be done: telling the town the truth that she was never a bad guy. Because of course Kieran understands best just how hard it is for Ogerpon to be shunned and outcast by everyone, and of course he has some Strong Feelings that people deserve to be told the truth, hmm I wonder where that might have come from. This task is really difficult and scary for him, too, because he hates talking to people – but he does it anyway, for Ogerpon’s sake! What a brave lad!

(I’ve seen people side-eye the fact that the villagers accept the truth and turn around their view of Ogerpon so easily, but honestly it doesn’t seem unreasonable to me. I get the mask maker way back when being persecuted because the villagers of the time saw Ogerpon kill the Three and made assumptions, but, like, it’s been generations. All of the witnesses who had that emotional gut reaction to the fight are long dead. Most of the people alive today didn’t even truly believe the story of the ogre was real until the Loyal Three showed up – they just thought it was a fun folktale that gives their village some unique culture. So for them to be told “hey, the ogre is real, but also the story’s backwards and the ogre’s actually the good guy”… so what? I was always sceptical of Grandpa’s conviction that the truth must never be told to the village (because… people will get angry that they were lied to? So therefore you should just keep lying to them so they never find out they have something to be angry about? Yes, great tactic, it worked so well on Kieran). Kieran basically just went and proved that there really was nothing to be worried about all along and the people should have been told the truth ages ago.)

His final chance to be strong

So now we reach the end, where Ogerpon makes it clear that she wants to stay with you, and… and even though he must have seen this coming, Kieran can’t accept it happening without trying to fight against it.

This isn’t even really about Kieran wanting Ogerpon’s friendship in and of itself. It’s more about what the concept of being partners with Ogerpon means to him. This whole time, he’s been obsessed with the ogre, and yet only letting himself imagine that maybe one day when he’s stronger, he could be its friend. He’s fixated on the idea of befriending Ogerpon as something that will mean he’s strong and no longer alone and everything is good now. Obviously this is extremely irrational and not necessarily true nor the sole way to fix his problems, but that’s how things are in Kieran’s head.

And so, with recent events making him feel even more weak and outcast than ever, you being effortlessly strong and cool enough to befriend Ogerpon on top of everything else feels to Kieran like it’s about to take away his one chance to turn things around, forever. Of course he can’t just let that happen without at least trying to have things his way. He says right at the beginning of the battle: “I know you’re probably a better trainer for Ogerpon, but I… I…” – and he can’t even voice the end of that sentence. He can’t put into words why he feels like he needs to become Ogerpon’s partner even though he knows he's being selfish and she’d be better off with you, because it’s not based in any conscious logic and is all just one big subconscious irrational mess of his issues and inferiority complex.

I’ve seen a lot of people condemn Kieran for this part, saying that he’s ignoring Ogerpon’s wishes because he’s planning to force her to join him whether she wants to or not if he wins. However, I firmly disagree that Kieran has any such thing in mind here. Remember, he’s still labouring under the misconception that what Ogerpon cares about most is strength. He thinks she likes you so much because you’re so strong (remember the previous time he battled you in front of the den, where he commented that the ogre must be thinking how strong you are if it’d seen that?), and that she refused the mask from him that one time because he’s weak. So Kieran has convinced himself that if he can prove himself to be stronger than you, by defeating you in a battle while Ogerpon’s watching, then she’ll naturally choose him to be her trainer over you. Right?

When Carmine says that he has to consider Ogerpon’s feelings, Kieran’s simply silent for a moment before saying “…I want to battle anyway.” He’s not denying that Ogerpon’s choice is what matters – he just believes, or is at least trying to believe, that her choice will be determined by this battle. And of course he doesn’t say anything like “Ogerpon will choose me if I’m stronger than you”, because – well, perhaps because a lot of this is also subconscious enough that he can’t articulate it, but even if any of it was conscious, he knows it’d sound stupid. Especially the part where he’d be talking like it’s possible for him to beat you, because deep down, he still completely convinced that’s impossible.

Plus, nowhere in this does Kieran bring up the fact that he told the village the truth about Ogerpon as a point in his favour for why she might choose him – which supports that it’s not about any kind of friendly gestures to him and he’s convinced she’ll make her decision entirely based on strength. (And it also proves that he did that out of a genuine desire to help Ogerpon, without any ulterior motives of trying to get her to like him!)

Just before the battle, he says: “Whoever wins gets to be Ogerpon’s partner… So don’t… don’t you dare hold back!” – making a point of demanding you don’t hold back, even though you might think he’d want any advantage he can get towards supposedly winning Ogerpon’s favour. But this makes perfect sense when you realise what this is about to Kieran. He believes that Ogerpon will choose (and deserves to choose) whichever of you is the strongest, and this battle won’t actually prove that if he only wins because you were holding back against him.

Kieran also thanks you for not holding back when you land your first super effective hit, which I enjoy. He’s so used to being patronised and seen as weak and pathetic, so he’s actually glad that you’re taking him seriously and viewing him as a legitimate opponent.

And, hey, he is! His team is pretty stacked: a full six Pokémon with solid movesets, and even strategic held items (at least in the postgame version). Assuming you’re not over-levelled, it’s quite a challenging fight, as it should be. Kieran is trying so, so hard to be strong enough, because this poor kid has convinced himself that all of his problems and pain are due to him being weak, and he is so desperate to fix that by proving himself even stronger than you, strong enough to win Ogerpon’s favour.

When he loses, he just crumples, and it’s heartbreaking. Kieran had so much more riding on this battle than just befriending Ogerpon – this was what felt like his one and only chance to stamp out the part of him that feels crushingly inferior and like he deserves to be treated like dirt. Guhhh.

And of course the first thing out of his mouth is, “Figures.” His inferiority complex runs so deep that, no matter how hard he’d trained and how genuinely really good his team had grown, he never truly believed that he ever had a chance at beating someone as cool and strong as you. He was just desperately trying to convince himself that he at least had a shot, because he couldn’t bear to give up without trying.

I really wish you could tell Kieran how good he was in this battle! It truly is impressive how much better he’s grown at battling since the first one, in such a short space of time, too. Just because he’s not quite as strong as you doesn’t mean he’s weak, not by a long shot. But nobody tells him any such thing, so Kieran continues to view things in that irrationally all-or-nothing way. He lost, so he's weak, end of.

Then he has to stand there and watch you battle Ogerpon in order to catch her. Before all of this happened, Kieran would have been so stoked to see his hero the ogre showing off just how cool and strong she is – and hey, her powers really are pretty awesome to behold! But here, despite the amazing spectacle in front of him, Kieran just looks supremely awkward. Like he doesn’t feel like he deserves to be here. Like he doesn’t even have the right to get to see Ogerpon’s full strength in all its glory. You’re the only one who’s strong enough to have earned this.

He does make one possible comment during the battle, if you land a critical hit on Ogerpon: “You really are good… I’m no match.” Which is a bit excessive, considering that really anyone is capable of critting Ogerpon if they get lucky – but apparently Kieran’s thoughts during this battle are still incredibly hung up on just how strong you are and how he’ll never be able to measure up to you. This goes to show that his issues at this point have shifted to be more about you than about Ogerpon. Which tracks, since his admiration for the ogre was never quite about Ogerpon herself and was more about what her strength represented to him – and now you’ve come along and given him an even bigger example of impossibly cool strength, in a much more painful way.

Once you’ve captured Ogerpon, Kieran manages to awkwardly congratulate you on it – hey, he’s doing his best not to be a sore loser! – laments once again why he can’t be like you, and then runs off. No doubt he’s feeling a huge heap of uncontainable painful emotions that he does not want to show in front of you or Carmine and needs to go let out in private. This kid is Not Okay.

So, in summary: Kieran comes out of all this with the message that all of his pain and suffering and loneliness is his fault because he’s still too weak, and he will only ever be strong enough to put all that behind him once he’s stronger than you. And to do that, he needs to get so, so much stronger, almost impossibly so, no matter what he has to do to achieve it. I’m sure this will be Just Fine leading into The Indigo Disk. (: (: (:

And one last thing: the game doesn’t let this happen, but if Kieran had won that final battle against you, I believe things might actually have turned out better. Because let’s face it, Ogerpon would probably still have chosen to go with you anyway, and if she had, Kieran would have been forced to face the fact that it was never actually about strength to her. It wouldn’t even be that hard for him to understand that, given that he’d already noticed the indications that she was scared of being shunned by the townspeople and that she liked you because you made her feel safe. This would help Kieran recontextualise things a little and stop focusing so unhealthily on gaining more battling strength as the One Thing that will solve all his problems. He still wouldn’t exactly be suddenly fixed and happy, but… things wouldn’t be quite so bad, at least. Alas, you are Too Protagonist to lose and let that happen.