#so I don’t BLAME Tim fans for it

[rubydubydoo122]

I think the funniest thing about how the Fandom perceives Tim (especially obnoxious Tim fans) is that he is was deeply hurt by the actions Jason, Damian, and Dick have done to him, but lowkey that’s just the fandom projecting

Tim lowkey did not give a fuck. Maybe a little at first, but he definitely does not hold a grudge against any of them.

[heroesriseandfall]

Jason Todd & Chronic Pain

I scrounged for the panels I know from Rebirth about Jason still having lingering pain and injuries from when the Joker killed him. We know Jason had substantial injuries and brain damage when he was resurrected, and Talia healed that with the Lazarus pit. But here’s some I know of being mentioned even after Talia healed him with the Lazarus pit.

The first I know of is when evil future Batman Tim targeted Jason’s hip because of a Joker-related injury that he claimed would eventually become debilitating for Jason. This move does take Jason out of the fight so it definitely seems like evil Tim successfully aggravated the injury.

Detective Comics #968 (Jan 2018) — earlier in #966 Batman Tim also mentioned future Jason would eventually lose an eye and a leg while fighting assassins.

More recently, regular, not-evil Tim referenced it while evaluating how to fight a Clayface Jason mimic:

Tim Drake: Robin #3 (Jan 2023) — Tim says the pit brought Jason back, which has sometimes been a thing. Originally Jason was only healed by the pit after he’d already been resurrected by something else.

This next one was black label, so it may or may not be canon (the creative team claims “it’s up to reader interpretation” and disagree on whether they personally think it is canon). I’m not a fan of the comic but it did pretty clearly indicate Jason had chronic pain from the Joker:

Batman: Three Jokers #2 (Nov 2020)

(There might be more than these—my reading of post flashpoint comics is kinda random and incomplete compared to my reading of post-Crisis. In post-Crisis though I think they mainly put emphasis on Jason’s destabilized mental health and didn’t really bring up physical aspects IIRC. His brain damage seemed healed and yet he seemed more affected after the pit than other one-time-in-the-pit characters like Dinah Lance or Cass Cain were.)

They haven’t bothered explaining how the pit didn’t heal them so far as I know (the pits kinda work to authorial convenience anyway). My route is usually to blame any weird Jason stuff on the strange, multiversal circumstances of his resurrection, but versions of his origin where he’s only brought back by the pit might not jive with that (which includes some Rebirth IIRC).

In any case, I do hope more writers pick up on this more and I love to see when it’s expanded upon a bit in fandom. I would already consider Jason’s mental health to be a disabling issue for him but it’s neat sometimes to have writers recognize chronic pain-related issues among DC characters. (I’d love to also see more expansion of Bruce mentioning he experienced chronic pain…it pops up every so often but rarely if ever in depth.)

Alt text is copied and expanded upon under read more below.

ID 1: Two panels from Detective Comics #968 showing Jason Todd as Red Hood leaping to fight evil future Batman Tim Drake. Jason says, “Sorry, Timmy, I don’t believe in Santa Claus.” Batman Tim slams his staff directly into Jason’s right hip joint, sending him flying back, and says, “Jason. In a few years you were going to learn that one of your bones never set right after the Joker killed you. There’s a growing debilitating bone spur in your hip joint. There, I found it for you you’re welcome.” They’re both in the batcave.

ID 2: A cropped panel from Tim Drake: Robin #3 showing a red narration box for Tim Drake which says: “The Lazarus Pit may have brought Jason back from the dead, but he’s still sensitive where The Joker killed him.”

ID 3: A comic page from Batman: Three Jokers #2. A Joker leans in Jason Todd’s face, looking intense and serious. The Joker says, “Who is the Joker, really? We’re going to find out.” The word “out” is written in an extended sing-songy way. The Jokers put Jason’s Red Hood helmet over his head but they’ve decorated it with a wide Joker-style grin. The two Jokers laugh, then one says, “We’ve spent considerable time trying to best answer that question: who is the Joker? We found that judge. A serial killer. A surgeon. All rather predictable and uninspiring. And then there’s you. Tell me something. Why would you put on that helmet and call yourself Red Hood after what we did?” Jason, who is sitting naked tied to the wooden chair, says, “Come on. Is every one of you copycats gonna ask me the same thing? It’s a joke.” One of the Jokers holds up a crowbar as the other says, “A joke? We left you with brain damage and permanent nerve pain. Physical and emotional trauma so severe that the only relief you ever find is when you inflict pain on others.” The Joker holds the crowbar by Jason’s head. “You and me, boy…..We’re more alike than you’d care to admit.”

ID 4: A comic page from Batman: Three Jokers #2 showing Jason Todd with no shirt on and small bandages on various parts of his arms and face. He looks at a calendar on a wall and reads the crossed out days that have physical therapy sessions written on them. He sees a stack of various healing and exercise books. The top book is titled Chronic Pain Management by Dr. D. Kresan. He picks it up. Barbara Gordon as Batgirl enters a different, dark room through a window.

ID 5: A comic page from Batman: Three Jokers #2 showing Barbara Gordon as Batgirl entering her own bedroom. She says, “Jason?” She sees a book on her bed titled “Chronic Pain Management” by Dr. D. Kresan. Jason says, “Barbara?” and walks out of the attached bathroom with only a towel around his waist. Babs says, “I figured you’d left.” Jason says, “I hope it’s okay I used the shower and I…I didn’t mean to go through your things. The closet door was open and that book looked…useful.” Babs says, “It was. Are you okay?” Jason has small bandages and bruises on his face as he says, “I don’t think I’ve ever been okay.” Babs looks concerned. Jason continues saying, “What the Joker said…about how I’ve been on the path to being like them for years��they’re not wrong. I don’t want to be like them though. I really don’t. You believe that, right?” Babs says, “I’m willing to.” Then Jason says, “Can I ask you something?”

[mysterycitrus]

Your opinions are sooo correct & sexy! I wanna know what you think about the switch of Roy being Dick's friend to (primarily) Jason's friend. Like in terms of both canon & fanon

(no pressure to answer though, just curious!)

ive talked about this before, so im not being facetious when i say that i don’t think there is anything remotely salvageable in the jason+roy relationship. i hate it.

when u consider current comic canon (that’s more or less tepidly reverted to post-crisis, pre-2011 canon), there is literally no reason why a freshly single father would be besties with his actual best friend’s 12yo brother. it’s profoundly unserious. even removing dick from the equation, in what world would roy be closer to jason than he is to ollie or donna or dinah or wally or jade or connor or mia or grant or vic or grace or literally any of the other titans?

i truly don’t think fans who like their relationship in that capacity care about roy, his history as a character, or his characterisation, because he is reduced to a demeaning, dehumanised depiction of any addict that is so totally divorced from his previous runs. how can u look at the roy harper that exists in rhato canon and not feel insulted that lobdell removed his family, his culture, his teammates, and his daughter in favour of making him swoon over jason? how is this a remotely egalitarian relationship when he exists to facilitate jason’s development and nothing else? how is roy treated with any respect by these fans?

the spiralling fanon vortex pulls everyone around roy in and ruins them by association. think about how unkind these interpretations of ollie are, or jade, or dick. how the actual important people in roy’s life, who love him and lian, are demonised to make room for jason. how unsympathetic the writing is to addicts, and how roy’s own addiction is switched as if different substances are interchangeable? how can u seriously engage with stories about sexual assault that posit roy as a slut-shaming, immature asshole who would seriously blame anyone for their own assault? it makes me so angry.

that’s even ignoring that roy would objectively not be cool with the things jason does, whether it be dealing, murdering people, or attacking roy’s own sister. roy has a moral backbone and isn’t afraid to be loud about it. there’s never been a team he was on pre-reboot where he hadn’t spoken up against shitty leadership or bad decisions — especially with dick. the difference in respect between dick and jason, where roy is allowed to be an adult with the titans and the outsiders and the league but is the team pet of the outlaws who can’t advocate for himself, is very stark.

it’s literally like if they decided to change kon to be damian’s best friend instead of tim’s, ignoring the age difference and their history together and any pre existing relationships. that’s how absurd the change was. that’s how much kon would have to be mischaracterised in order for that relationship to “work.”

jason could exist as an interesting contrast to roy, the same way he does to dick, but that would rely on roy being written well. it would have to mean they weren’t friends, that they weren’t close, and that jason wasn’t an actual part of his life, because that’s the only way they could exist together without roy being thrown on the fire to keep jason warm.

[willowswiththorns]

I see Marble Hornets and humbly ask for Masky, yandere or the nsfw alphabet whichever one you feel more comfortable writing I will graciously accept pleaseeeee!!!

Now usually I’ll do one or the other, but I’m a big fan of Masky/Tim. So I’m gonna do yandere this time since there’s not a lot of that. This will follow a bit under the Slenderverse ( marble hornets ) version of Masky and not too much into the Creepypasta Masky version. I’ll be picking some stuff out of both overall, but mostly leaning toward Marble hornets. Thank you sm for requesting! - Willow

Warnings :, slight dub-con( if you squint) , captivity , Stockholm syndrome, restraints, murder, stalking, minors do not interact

Masky/Tim Wright Yandere A-Z

YANDERE A-Z first

Affection: How do they show their love and affection? How intense would it get?

Masky and Tim equally don’t know how to show affection properly, so when it’s shown, it’s very very intense.

Masky mostly has a hard time emotionally speaking on his love towards you. You’ll mostly have physical contact from him. ( him holding you down and not letting you go)

Tim is the opposite side of the coin. He’s a bit awkward when it comes to showing physical affection, but he tries his best to show his love to you verbally.

Blood: How messy are they willing to get when it comes to their darling?

Masky has no problem with spilling blood if it means you stay with him forever. He’ll kill anyone that gets in his way from his goal, you.

Tim isn’t much for killing, he’s the type to not do it unless it’s a necessary action. I.e. self defense.

Cruelty: How would they treat their darling once abducted? Would they mock them?

I’ve seen a lot of fanfics where Masky is kind and caring. That’s not it here I’m sorry.

Masky is definitely the type to belittle and mock you while you are under his care. If you can call it that

Masky is more ruthless than most think. He will tie you down if need be. He doesn’t want you trying to run away from the cabin he’s hid you in.

If you are a fighter, he takes his time with you. He will knock you over and make you struggle to try and get up. He will force you to look at him whenever just to show you he is in control.

Tim isn’t going to mock you, in fact he feels a lot of guilt abducting you. He definitely tries to make up for the time his other side kicks in. He has little to no memory when Masky is in control, he only knows what happens when you tell him, or when Brian tells him.

Either way, Tim feels a lot of remorse for your situation, but it’s not like he’s going to up and let you go.

He secretly likes that you’re stuck with him, he’ll blame Masky for everything that goes wrong, but it’s not like he’s going to do anything about it.

Darling: Aside from abduction, would they do anything against their darling’s will?

Masky will take out any of his pent up frustration onto you ( sexually mostly) that or he’ll pull your hair just to make you tear up.

Tim does his best to respect any boundaries you set. The only one that he tends to cross is whenever he wants to hold you in his arms. This burly man just wants to feel you in his arms , and he can’t help himself.

Exposed: How much of their heart do they bare to their darling? How vulnerable are they when it comes to their darling?

Masky bares nothing to his love. He’s not even emotionally in check with himself, how would he be able to be open with his victim partner?

Tim has a lot of trouble opening up to his love, but all it takes is one time for him to tearfully open up about

Fight: How would they feel if their darling fought back?

Masky can and will rock your shit if you tried to fight him. He does not care one bit if you get knocked out or have a concussion after this match, this man fights to win.

Tim doesn’t want to deal with any fighting , the most he’ll do is to try and stop you from hitting him. He’ll grab your wrists or ankles to stop him from hitting or kicking him. A frown would be very apparent on his face as he’s asking you to stop trying to hurt him.

Game: Is this a game to them? How much would they enjoy watching their darling try to escape?

This isn’t a game to either of them. Both just want you to accept their love. Tim just wants you to accept their love and accept him as who he is while Masky doesn’t care if you love him or not, he just wants control over you.

Hell: What would be their darling’s worst experience with them?

Masky will put you through hell a lot. The most specific time where life was made a living hell for you was when you tried to run away. You got a good bit away from the cabin, but got envitably lost in the woods.

It wasn’t until you bumped into Brian, who picked you up and dragged you back to Masky.

Once Masky came back to the cabin after trying to find you, he waited for Brian to leave before dragging you to the back room.

He’d strip you down and put a chain around your ankle tightly. Letting you have just amount of length from the chain to roam around the empty room and to the bathroom.

He’d leave you in that dark back room to starve for a few days. It won’t be until the 3rd day that he lets you out, waiting for you to beg for food. Masky is petty enough to probably eat food in front of you just to make you angry. Of course once you apologize for running away and swearing to stay by his side will he finally give you food and unchain you.

Tim’s worst moment is when you tell him you hate him for the first time. He’d react negatively, not knowing what to say, he’ll just avoid you because he can’t handle the idea of you hating him.

Ideals: What kind of future do they have in mind for/with their darling?

Neither of them truly have an idea for the future, given their current position with the operator /slenderman, the future isn’t really guaranteed. Tim wants to atleast one day have a family with you.

Jealousy: Do they get jealous? Do they lash out or find a way to cope?

Masky definitely gets jealous, he tends to take out his jealousy onto you physically though.

Tim doesn’t take his jealousy onto you physically, he will get pouty and demand for reassurance that you love and need him.

Kisses: How do they act around or with their darling?

Masky is very cruel with his darling, his kisses are rough and feral. He doesn’t give you time to breathe and he doesn’t let you try to pull away either.

Tim wants you to feel safe and comfortable with him. He wants you to want to kiss him. His kisses are gentle and warm. His lips taste like smoke and coffee

Love letters: How would they go about courting or approaching their darling?

Masky doesn’t really court, he just hunts

Tim is more courting, he’s just awkward about it. He’d start by watching your routine, seeing what you like and dislike. He wants you to see him as the perfect suitor for you. He’ll try to bump into you at a coffee shop or a store you like.

Mask: Are their true colors drastically different from the way they act around everyone else?

They’re both the same around everyone else for the most part, except their affections are only for you.

Naughty: How would they punish their darling?

Masky will full on throw hands with you or isolate you.

Tim will scold you and at very very worse maybe lock you in both of y’all’s room if you’re acting up.

Oppression: How many rights would they take away from their darling?

Masky will take away a lot of rights from you. This man is all about having power over you. So little freedoms like walking around the cabin freely or maybe going outside even takes a lot of time to be given those rights back.

Tim doesn’t like taking rights away, but if you push him, you’ll lose a lot of rights . He’ll sorta gaslight you into understanding why your rights are being taken away for your own good.

Patience: How patient are they with their darling?

Masky has little to no patience. He’s not the soundest of men. He will snap and blow up on you if you act up.

Tim is more patient depending on his headspace. If he’s in a bad mood, he’s very short and snappy with you. If he’s in a good mood, he’s much more patient and understanding with you.

Quit: If their darling dies, leaves, or successfully escapes, would they ever be able to move on?

Masky will move on easily since he’s not really emotionally attached to you. Now if you ran away, he’d take pleasure in hunting you down. Just expect to be heavily punished when he enviably catches you.

Tim will not move on from you ever. He loves you and will blame himself if you die. If you run away, he’ll panic and call Brian for help in catching you. The imagine of these two men hunting you down can be very terrifying or very hot if you’re into a good chase.

Regret: Would they ever feel guilty about abducting their darling? Would they ever let their darling go?

Tim is the only one who feels regret. There would only be one time where his judgment would lapse and he would consider letting you go, but he’s quick to come to his senses and get rid of that option.

Stigma: What brought about this side of them (childhood, curiosity, etc)?

Definitely his upbringing, but definitely post Marble hornets can play a part in his fear of losing someone. So the fear of losing you could push him to abduct you. He just wants to protect you.

Tears: How do they feel about seeing their darling scream, cry, and/or isolate themselves?

Masky couldn’t care less. He won’t let you have any ounce of control when it comes to isolating yourself from him. He’ll tie you down before letting you get away with ignoring him. He enjoys hearing you scream and seeing you cry, he loves seeing your reactions.

Tim’s heart breaks a little anytime he sees you cry. He doesn’t like seeing you suffer any way, especially when he knows he’s playing a role in your suffering.

Unique: Would they do anything different from the classic yandere?

Masky is incapable of being a classic yandere. He doesn’t love you, he’s obsessed with you and wants to have control over you. He will kill anything you love just to have you.

Tim isn’t delusional, he knows what he’s doing is wrong, he just wants you reciprocate his feelings.

Vice: What weakness can their darling exploit in order to escape?

Tim’s weakness is his guilt over having you captive here and because he’s opened up about his past regrets ( Jay’s death) if you exploit that , there’s a slim chance where he’d let you have the option to go. Of course; he’ll instantly regret giving you that choice and try to take it back. If you run away before he does change his mind, that’s your free ticket out.

Wit’s end: Would they ever hurt their darling?

Masky would 100% hurt you just to make you scared. He wants to display that he is stronger and faster than you.

Tim will never willingly hurt you, he adores you too much to wish any sort of harm onto you. He tends to try and clean up any wounds you’d have after interacting with Masky.

Xoanon: How much would they revere or worship their darling? To what length would they go to win their darling over?

Masky doesn’t care about winning you over, he just wants you to fear him and let him have control over you.

Tim will try to win over your heart over and over again. He wants you to willingly be with him, and will actively try to show you that being with him is the best way.

Yearn: How long do they pine after their darling before they snap?

Both don’t take too long to pine after you. The part before they’d snap is longer solely because they’re spending time stalking you.

Zenith: Would they ever break their darling?

Masky will 100% break you if you push him too hard. He wants full control over you.

Tim will definitely not want to break you, he wants you to love him willingly

[elyvorg]

Kieran Part 1: It’s All About Strength

I’m a longtime Pokémon fan who happily plays through every mainline game, but I’ve never been more than mildly fond of the occasional character here and there, because Pokémon isn’t much for deep and nuanced character writing. Then I played The Teal Mask DLC and came out of it with many, many Feelings and Thoughts about Kieran – enough so that it warrants a full, juicy analysis about all of his subtleties and issues. I never expected I’d write one of these character analysis rambles of mine on a Pokémon character of all things, but here we are. Colour me surprised and impressed.

For anyone reading this in the future: this was written before The Indigo Disk came out and therefore only talks about the events of The Teal Mask. Assuming The Indigo Disk doesn’t completely drop the ball on the best character-writing job that mainline Pokémon has ever done (please; please don’t), there will probably be a Part 2 to this analysis coming in a few months. (Aaaaand here it is! But you should read this one first, of course.)

(I’ll be referring to the player character as “you” here for ease of wording, but rest assured, this doesn’t mean I’m accusing you the reader of any of the questionable ways the player character treats Kieran. I was also very annoyed at being forced to lie to him, believe me.)

His weakness, and your strength

Kieran is a kid gripped with a crushing sense of inferiority and weakness. We don’t see all of where this came from, although we get a pretty good idea of part of it – his sister. So many times when Kieran tries to protest against things and assert himself, Carmine snaps back at him for doing so. Over time, that kind of thing would have made him feel like he’s wrong for trying to stand up for himself, leading to him letting people walk all over him. I don’t want to give Carmine’s behaviour all of the blame for Kieran’s issues, though, because there’s bound to be more to it than that. I expect some of it also came from him being bullied and outcast during his time at Blueberry Academy – I hope The Indigo Disk gives us glimpses into what Kieran’s life there was like before all this.

As a result of feeling so weak and inferior, Kieran admires and idolises people he sees as strong. This becomes clear early on with how much he looks up to you just for being able to beat his sister, someone else he also sees as strong. Apparently, he couldn’t stop raving about how cool you were and how he wanted to battle you all evening back at home.

He doesn’t want you to know that, though, based on his protest when Carmine comes out and tells you so. Kieran's probably rather embarrassed for you to hear how much he idolises you, after all. He also seems to think his request for a battle would be annoying and a bother – he says “You don’t mind?” in surprise when you accept, even though asking people for battles is supposed to be just what trainers do. Why would a strong trainer like you want to waste your time battling someone weak like him?

Kieran’s comment in the battle if you land a super effective move is also very telling: “Oof, ehehe… I guess I got a lot of weaknesses…” He tries to play it off as light-hearted, but, hm, that sure is A Way for a rival character to comment on you knowing about type matchups. And he most certainly does not seem to agree with his sister when she says he’s almost as strong as her.

(Fun fact: the game actually lets you lose the first battle with each sibling while still continuing the story. If you lose to Kieran in that first battle, he assumes you were holding back against him, as if that’s the only reason he’d ever be able to beat anyone. Perhaps he’s experienced people holding back against him out of pity before – maybe Carmine used to?)

He's flustered when Carmine partners him up with you, too, even though you’re the only option that he has at least a vague rapport with now – he’s still assuming someone cool like you wouldn’t want to waste any more of your time on him than you have to. Kieran worries he’ll “get in your way” if he sticks with you, so he hangs back and stays well out of your way instead. It’s a cute way for the game to justify him not actually following you around in the gameplay even though he’s supposed to be following you according to the plot, but it also just makes perfect sense for Kieran’s character. This is a kid who constantly tries to take up as little space as possible because he’s convinced that nobody wants him around. And it’s important that he seems to feel especially this way towards the people he looks up to (with the exception of Carmine, because she’s family and he spends most of his time with her already).

Then there’s the scene where he meets Koraidon/Miraidon. At first, I assumed it was there to introduce Kieran to our lizardbike friend because they’d be relevant later somehow. But they’re not! So the only reason this scene exists at all is for the purpose of illustrating to Kieran that, in his words, “you’re special”. You are A Protagonist, capable of befriending super special, rare, strong Pokémon with ease. (Just like a certain other special legendary Pokémon you’ll be meeting soon, how about that.)

Admiring the ogre

So, as you begin the trip to visit the signboards about Kitakami’s legend, Kieran starts to open up about how much he likes the ogre. Perhaps he feels safe telling you, because you’re an outsider and won’t frown upon him for it like the locals are prone to do. He probably gets that from them a lot and has learned not to bring up the ogre in town – another thing that makes him feel left out.

Even so, Kieran starts from the angle of “it’s so strong and cool because it won one-on-three”, since that’s a more acceptable reason to like the ogre that doesn’t question the validity of the legend, and is less personal to his issues. If you agree with him that the ogre sounds cool before he’s explained why he thinks so, he responds with “I knew you’d get it!” – you, who’s also really strong and cool, would obviously recognise that same strength in the ogre right away, right?

If you’re sceptical at first instead, he stresses that “it was all alone!” and still managed to hold its own – the more personal side of the reason he likes the ogre coming out just a little. By the second signboard, Kieran’s gotten a bit more comfortable with you, enough to start touching on that more deliberately. He mentions that it’s shunned, and that he likes its strength because he admires that and wishes he could be that strong himself.

Then he invites you to see the ogre’s den, something completely unrelated to the purpose of the school trip, because he trusts you enough to feel sure that you’ll get what he’s trying to illustrate about the ogre there. He points out that it seems like a lonely, miserable place to live, and that he’d happily let the ogre stay at his house if it wanted. He’s not quite explicitly saying so, but Kieran clearly empathises with the ogre because he relates to that kind of loneliness. Though he doesn’t want to outright say that the legend is wrong and the ogre isn’t actually the bad guy – maybe he’s got backlash from the villagers before for suggesting it –  he's got to believe that to be the case.

(I’ve seen one or two people suggest that Kieran fawning over the supposed bad guy in the legend is an early hint to his potential for darkness, but I really don’t think that’s it. There’s plenty of reason for Kieran to relate to and see the sympathetic side of the ogre in the story due to his own status as a social outcast, without it needing to be a case of “he just likes bad guys because he’s Edgy”.)

Later, at the festival, Kieran has a quiet chuckle to himself when Carmine’s talking about the Loyal Three being heroes, and says it’s funny that she doesn’t know anything about the ogre. Then he conspicuously changes the subject when she implies that it’s just that he likes edgy bad guys, because that’s not it – but at least now he has someone who does get it. Carmine mentions later that she feels Kieran is trying to one-up her about the ogre, and maybe this is true. Perhaps this is one small way in which he can privately feel superior to his sister, because he’s more right than her, or than anyone in the village, about the ogre’s true nature. And while that’s more due to luck and a large helping of projecting his own issues onto it than out of any genuine inside knowledge of the truth, Kieran is the one person who understands the ogre best.

Or, at least, he understands it best… for the most part. Because there is one very key way in which Kieran is actually thoroughly wrong about what Ogerpon is truly like.

Misunderstanding the ogre

This begins to be apparent at the second signboard, when Kieran’s gushing about the ogre’s coolness and says “it didn’t even care when everyone shunned it”. From meeting Ogerpon later, we know that this is patently not true about her – she’s terrified of humans because of how they see her, so really she hates being shunned! But Kieran doesn’t imagine that to be the case about her, even though he empathises with her presumed loneliness and is basically projecting his own onto her. He sees the ogre as somebody who is shunned and alone, like he is, but who, unlike him, is strong enough to not let it get to them. Someone in the same bad situation as him, but with strength that he only wishes he could have to deal with it.

In that same conversation at the second signboard, Kieran then goes on to talk about how his sister always does everything for him, and he’d like to become stronger and more independent and reliable. And, “then, just maybe… I could be that ogre’s friend.” As if he doesn’t think he’d deserve to be Ogerpon’s friend unless he was already strong, just like she is.

He mentions a couple of times that he comes to the Dreaded Den a lot but has never once seen the ogre, which might seem a little strange at first. Obviously Ogerpon kept well hidden from him because she’s scared of humans – but, did Kieran never try to call out to her? To tell her that he’s not afraid of her, that he admires her strength and she must be lonely and hey, maybe they could be friends? If he had, then surely over time, Ogerpon would have grown to trust him and shown herself – so apparently, Kieran never did try to call out to her in an attempt to befriend her. Because he felt he wasn’t worthy of her friendship, not when he’s so weak, so inferior to someone as strong and cool as her. (A lot like how he wouldn’t have had the courage to tell you how much he admired you, if his sister hadn’t blurted it out for him.)

While you’re visiting the den with him, Kieran assumes that “a powerful ogre like that would only show up if it heard some kinda battle”, leading to him challenging you again. Since he admires the ogre for its strength, he’s assuming that the ogre also values strength just as much if not more than he does, which really isn’t necessarily true about Ogerpon!

During the battle, Kieran says he’ll “put up a good fight” this time. Which is to say, he still feels so thoroughly outclassed by you that he isn’t remotely expecting or even trying to win – he just wants to at least not go down quite as pitifully as last time, not when he’s potentially being watched by his idol the ogre. And when he loses (the game requires you to win this and all future battles against him), he laments how he’s ever going to be able to beat you, and then he muses, “If the ogre saw that battle, I’m sure it’d be thinking, ‘That kid’s got some real strength…’” He is assuming that Ogerpon would like you, far more than she’d ever like him, because of how strong you are. This is very important.

(As it happens, Ogerpon was secretly watching that battle, but as for whether she’s actually thinking what Kieran imagines she is about your strength – who knows?)

Friendship! Or is it…?

By the end of the den visit, Kieran has just enough confidence to invite you to the Festival of Masks, and to his own house to get ready to go together, which there’s no way he’d have been able to do at the start of the day. He’s so surprised but thrilled to hear that you consider yourself his friend – based on that and his grandparents’ reactions, you’re likely the first friend he’s ever made, which would not be surprising. It’s lovely watching this shy but sweet kid actually smiling and feeling comfortable around you and happy to have someone he can call a friend for the first time ever. And GHHHH it is so painful in hindsight knowing where things are headed.

Even with you calling yourself his friend, though, Kieran still feels inferior to you. He dejectedly offers to give you his mask for the festival when you find yourself without one, even though it’s the ogre mask, his favourite, his thing – because he instinctively feels that if anyone should be the one who gets left out, it should be him, like always, and not you.

The whole time, Kieran’s bound to be feeling thoroughly insecure about this new friendship. The idea that he’s actually made a friend, and not least someone as cool as you, likely feels far too good to be true, more than he deserves, and I suspect he might be constantly waiting for the other shoe to drop. When he mentions to Carmine that you’re coming to the festival with him, her response is vaguely evasive, and Kieran responds to that in a very prickly, defensive way. It reads to me like he thinks Carmine is jealous of him befriending you before her, and that he’s afraid she might try to take you away from him as a result. Whether that’s actually true or not isn’t really the point (I think Carmine might indeed be a little jealous, but she would not do something that deliberately malicious) – what matters is that Kieran believes this may be the case and is liable to view all further interactions with you and Carmine in that light.

Then, at the festival, Carmine pressures Kieran into playing Ogre Oustin’ even though he doesn’t really want to. She’s probably doing this in an attempt to encourage him to have fun, but since he doesn’t find it fun (because he doesn't like this game where he's pretend-killing the ogre!), it’d be easy for him to feel like she only did it because she wanted him out of the way so she could hang out with you. And it’s while Kieran’s doing that that you and Carmine meet Ogerpon without him. Of course, that’s nothing but pure unlucky bad timing – Carmine had no idea Ogerpon was about to show up – but from Kieran’s point of view, with his obvious history of being maliciously left out of things by others, it’s easy for him to feel like there was some deliberate element to it.

At first he doesn’t know it has anything to do with Ogerpon, though. But still, when he gets back from Ogre Oustin’ and asks what you two were up to, Carmine abruptly shuts you up before you can speak and is blatantly hiding something – which Kieran takes to mean that you were laughing at him behind his back. That’s something else he must get a lot, for him to be automatically assuming it’s happening here. Really not so far off from his fear that his sister’s going to try and take you away from him, either.

Carmine’s lie isn’t done out of any malice – she is genuinely trying to protect her brother from feeling bad over being left out of meeting Ogerpon – but she sure is doing so in a way that’s going to make him feel even worse over being left out on purpose once he realises the truth. Carmine does care about her brother in theory, but this girl has zero social brain cells. And we the player are forced to play along with the lie whether we want to or not, which awkwardly turns our player-insert character into a very specific kind of character who would do so. I guess they either also have zero social brain cells, or they’re kind of a doormat who’s swayed by a forceful personality like Carmine’s. This part is frustrating, but I have to accept it because of the delightful things it does to Kieran’s arc, which really is the important part here.

Learning of the lie

The next morning, it seems like Kieran’s largely managed to brush off the weird bit last night where you and his sister were maybe laughing at him behind his back, because he greets you with a smile, ready to go see the last signboard. And then Carmine… forcefully demands that he finds somewhere else to be, because you’ve got business with her. Kieran protests that it’s not fair that you’ve been spending all your time with her lately – score two for his fear that she’s trying to take you away from him – and when she snaps back at his protest like always, he runs off.

But he doesn’t run off that far, because he stays close enough to listen in on the conversation. The discussion of Ogerpon’s story goes on for long enough – and takes long enough to get to the important part – that Kieran pretty much has to have stayed to eavesdrop on purpose, which is a little sketchy of him. Still, I can’t blame him all that much, what with his background of being mistreated, and the way Carmine’s behaviour gives him ample reason to be afraid there’s something going on here – of course he’d have wanted to know for sure. Perhaps he was even trying to hope that listening in would prove that you’re not actually hiding something bad from him and he was just being paranoid.

Except that actually, it turns out the truth is so much worse than Kieran had feared. Never mind just laughing at him – you and Carmine met the ogre without him and then hid it from him as if he didn’t even deserve to know. And, as if that wasn’t bad enough, it then turns out that he was right all along about the ogre being a good guy, and his own grandpa didn’t even think it was worth telling him that, and now you’re still just going to keep lying to him about it all and leaving him in the dark.

(Really, I have to side-eye their grandpa a lot more than Carmine here, because he’s a grown dang adult and has so much less excuse. He says he’ll tell Kieran the truth “when the time is right”, but what does that even mean? The “right time” would be right now! Heck, it should have been the moment he realised that Kieran had already intuited the truth!)

And all this being lied to and shunned and left out of things (like always) stings even more for Kieran because it’s coming from someone he’d thought was his friend. He’d actually dared to hope that someone – and not just anyone, someone really cool and strong – actually wanted to be friends with him? Of course that was too good to be true. Why would someone as cool and strong as you have ever wanted to befriend a weak loser like him, anyway? (After all, cool strong people only ever want to be friends with other cool strong people; that’s how it works, right?)

Probing about the lie

The correct thing for Kieran to do with this situation would have been to simply come right out and confront you about the lie. But of course he doesn’t have the courage to do that. He’s far too used to being shot down whenever he tries to assert and stand up for himself (no thanks to Carmine). And since he only learned about this because he was eavesdropping, it’s easy for him to imagine having that turned against him, and the whole situation being treated like he’s the one in the wrong for doing that.

Still, it seems like Kieran might want to at least indirectly give you the opportunity to tell him the truth. He heads off to the village shop to act like he was there the whole time, and then casually asks you what you were talking about back there. He’s maybe trying to hope that you don’t really want to lie to him and only got swept up into doing so by his sister’s forcefulness, and that you’ll tell him everything now that she’s not here, because, you said you were his friend, right? Later on, too, at the third signboard, the way Kieran brings up that his family is descended from the mask maker feels suspiciously relevant, as if he only thought to do so because he overheard the story and is trying to give you a chance to go, “Hey, speaking of that mask maker, actually…”

But no. It sure seems like you’re very deliberately choosing to keep him in the dark. As such, he’s bound to be feeling extra small and awkward at the signboard, just wanting to “get this over with” and be done spending time with you, because you clearly don’t want to waste any more of your time with him than you have to, right? The awkwardness of the third signboard photo, with Kieran obviously not wanting to be there, and your character’s very strained thumbs-up, is heartbreaking in comparison to how cute and happy the first two were.

During the conversation there, Kieran mentions the ogre being alone and treated like an outcast in a way that is very clearly also talking about how you and Carmine are treating him right now. The game pointedly lingers on his response to your comment, regardless of which dialogue option you choose. If you agree that that sounds awful, he says, “You think so too, huh?” – you think that it’s bad to treat someone that way, and yet, you sure are treating him that way anyway. If you instead mutter an awkward apology, Kieran asks, “For what?” This could read like he’s calling you out for not being able to admit to what you should be apologising for, but actually, I’m not sure that’s it. It could also be him genuinely asking that, because he doesn’t realise you need to apologise for anything. Hold this thought, I’ll go into it more in a bit.

It's because he’s weak

The other thing that happens at the third signboard is Kieran challenging you to another battle. He doesn’t really explain why, but I suspect he’s hoping that if he wins and proves his strength to you, you might just tell him the truth, or at least it’ll give him the courage to confront you about your lie. This is the first battle in which he says he wants to win and is actively trying and hoping to do so, rather than just accepting his loss before he’s even started. His optimism is pretty fragile, though, as he laments “it wasn’t supposed to go like this” if you hit him super-effectively, and “why does it have to be like this?” when he’s down to his last Pokémon.

But of course, he loses, just like he must secretly have been expecting to all along (how could he ever beat someone as strong as you?). And so he concludes, “it’s all ‘cause I’m too weak” – not just losing the battle, but everything. Why he’s always left out and shunned by everyone, why you lied to him and went behind his back about something you knew was important to him – it’s because he’s weak. He was battling you to try and prove that he’s stronger, strong enough to deserve better than that… but of course he isn’t.

A particularly important little subtlety is that he mutters “That’s why I…” – because it would have been easy to expect this line to say “you” instead. That you lied to him and shunned him because he’s weak, that it’s your fault for choosing to treat someone weak like this. But Kieran isn’t framing it that way. He’s thinking of it as his fault, simply for being weak, and that’s why he will always inevitably be treated like crap by everyone around him. As if that’s nobody else’s fault for choosing to do that, but simply the natural way of things when someone’s weak. As if he deserves this for being weak.

(So: what are you sorry for? You shouldn’t be sorry for anything; it’s his fault, isn’t it? Someone as strong and perfect as you could never be conflicted or in the wrong.)

By the end of this signboard visit, Kieran’s leaving on his own, saying that he’s got to get stronger with his Pokémon. All of this is happening because he’s weak, so he needs to be stronger – and apparently, that means “strength in Pokémon battling”. In reality, even if he did become the best battler out there, that wouldn’t necessarily make him any better at standing up for himself in social situations or being independent and reliable in other ways, but he’s very much conflating the different kinds of strength. This probably has a lot to do with his schooling at Blueberry Academy, which teaches Pokémon battling, leaving him overly focused on battling strength as the only kind of strength that matters. Perhaps he was picked on at school because he wasn’t very good at the battling classes, which wouldn’t have helped. I hope we see some glimpses of this in The Indigo Disk.

And on the topic of Kieran fixating on getting stronger at Pokémon battling: his Furret is never seen in his team again after this point. It was one of the first two Pokémon he used against you, so it’s presumably one of his closest Pokémon partners, which makes it heartbreaking that he ditches it from his team because, clearly, it’s too weak. Even worse, he’s inflicting being left out and shunned on someone else – someone he probably cared about – precisely because it’s weak. That’s just what happens to people who are weak, right? Guh. Poor Furret.

Outburst at Loyalty Plaza

Kieran most likely spends the next 24 hours alternating between fervently training as hard as he can, and stewing in his feelings of loneliness and rejection and betrayal. His grandpa mentions that he spent that night in his room after not even eating dinner, which, yeah, when he’s sharing a house with two of the people who are lying to him, not surprising. Oof. And more than just pain and betrayal, he’s got to be feeling so much anger, anger which he’s never been able to truly express, because every time he tries to stand up for himself he always gets shot down – but that only makes the suppressed anger worse.

The correct thing to do would have been for Kieran to confront everyone calmly about the lie as soon as he became aware of it. But because he couldn’t just do that, his resentment festered inside of him with no real outlet, until finally it becomes unbearable and explodes out of him and he has to do something to express it, no matter how questionable. So he steals the Teal Mask and runs off with it.

I don’t think Kieran actually has much of an idea of what he’s going to do with the mask. The one logical thing would have been to give it back to Ogerpon himself, but that can’t be his intent, because he doesn’t go anywhere near her den with it. And I highly doubt he’s planning to break it or anything like that, since he’d never do something that’d hurt Ogerpon. Really, I think he just wants you and Carmine to notice and acknowledge what he’s going through and what you’ve done to him – and if he steals the mask, you’re going to have to confront him to get it back.

He heads to Loyalty Plaza in particular because he’s conflating his own situation with Ogerpon’s. In amongst his pain and anger at the way he’s being treated, he’d have also been feeling a lot of anger at the injustice of how Ogerpon was and is treated, because he was right all along that she was never the bad guy, but she’s shunned undeservedly while the “Loyal” Three are lauded as heroes. Even though this outburst from Kieran is really all about his own situation, he makes it about Ogerpon first, because that’s easier for him to openly be angry about. He only brings up his own treatment as a comparison to how Ogerpon is treated like an outcast, as if the only way he can frame it as wrong in his head is by comparing it to something that’s definitely wrong. (After all, he deserves to be shunned because he’s weak – but Ogerpon didn’t deserve any of it, because she’s so much stronger!)

During Kieran’s outburst, Carmine blurts out an apology on realising that she’s hurt him – but Kieran basically just ignores it and continues to vent. Which tells us something interesting: that Kieran never did this out of any attempt to get you and Carmine to apologise for lying to him. If he’d wanted that, he’d have reacted in some way when Carmine did just that. So I think, in keeping with Kieran’s belief that all this is his fault for being weak, he doesn’t actually think you two need to apologise for anything. He’s lashing out because he’s angry and in pain and doesn’t know how else to deal with it, but he’s not consciously thinking that you and Carmine are in the wrong.

He’s also still holding onto the idea that you and Carmine were just laughing at him behind his back, which is of course not true, but when Carmine tries to say that, Kieran snaps back that she’s a liar. Given that she undeniably has lied to him about one very important thing, of course Kieran would find it easy to believe that she could be lying to him about anything and he can’t trust any reassurance she gives him. This poor kid must have such a history of being mistreated and patronised by others to jump to assuming things like this.

Lashing out with a battle

Then Kieran challenges you to another battle, promising to give back the mask if you win. Since there’s no way he is truly expecting to be able to beat you, this means that he never really intended to keep the mask forever. But he also doesn’t just want to seem like some weak pushover who’ll roll over and give in as soon as he’s confronted, so he at least wants to make you fight him for it. And based on his line at the beginning of the battle – “I know this isn’t right, but… I can’t just hand over the mask to you!” – he doesn’t want to just give up one of Ogerpon’s possessions so easily to someone who treated him like an outcast the same way those villagers back then treated Ogerpon.

Really, I think the battle – and the notably forceful way he asks for it, unlike the previous times – just comes a lot from Kieran’s anger, and his need to externalise it somehow. He even insists that he needs this battle, if you’re hesitant about accepting the challenge. There’s probably a part of him that wants to lash out with physical violence, maybe punch you or something, but he knows that’s wrong and that it’d look pathetically impotent of him anyway even if he tried. Happily, this world has a socially-accepted form of violence-by-proxy instead, so Pokémon battle it is!

As for the battle itself, Kieran’s switched up his team some more, removing Furret as previously mentioned, and adding two new members instead of just one like the previous times – but the Cramorant he uses here doesn’t stick around either. This is less sad to me than Furret, though, because he wouldn’t have been very close to it. Cramorant may even have been taken onto the team with the condition of “I’m trying out new team members to see who’s strong enough”, at which point ditching it is less of a betrayal and more of it simply failing a job interview.

(Meanwhile, the other newcomer, Gligar, clearly impressed Kieran a lot with its strength, as it becomes his ace for the final fight. Fitting that his ace there is not a long-time partner, but one obtained only after he began to fixate on getting stronger.)

He’s also more openly determined to win (despite his suppressed conviction that he could never beat you), and remains more optimistic than before even when things aren’t going so well for him. In fact, this is the only battle in which Kieran has lines for hitting you with a super effective move or a critical hit. That said, he’s still a little insecure, based on an optional line: “I need to get this right… I’m gonna make sure to give the right commands!” which tells us that he feels like his losses are his fault for making mistakes and choosing the wrong moves, rather than blaming his Pokémon for not being strong enough. He also has an absolutely great comment in this battle if you land a critical hit, which I have to highlight: “What can’t you do? You’re like the hero in a story…” It’s purely luck, but despite that, he’s seeing you as this impossibly perfect hero that he could never ever measure up to, and this delights me.

Losing the battle just seems to make Kieran’s frustration at his own inferiority even worse, to the point that he does indulge in some physical violence, towards the shrine. Which is as pathetic as he must have been expecting, and should in theory have been harmless enough. (Of course, it appears that this is what somehow resurrects the Lousy Three, but there is no way Kieran expected or wanted that to happen, so he can’t be blamed for that.) Then he gives the mask back, just as he promised he would, and (ignoring another attempt by Carmine to apologise – again, this was never about that to him) he runs off back home.

So I find it really hard to condemn Kieran for… any of his actions here? Sure, he stole the mask, but he didn’t do anything bad with it and gave it back just fine (and must have always been intending to). All he was doing was lashing out – unhealthily, but basically harmlessly – over the really very callous way you and Carmine had been treating him. And if he hadn’t done this, you two would probably never have told him the truth about Ogerpon, and he’d have remained out of the loop and never met her at all! That would have been awful!

And yet: making you and Carmine bring him into the loop about Ogerpon and getting the chance to meet her is also not something Kieran was aiming for here. Just before leaving in a sulk, he says, “Say hi to the ogre for me” – which means that he never expected to get to meet it himself. He is still, even by the end of this confrontation, labouring under the belief that you and Carmine don’t want him there with Ogerpon and that he doesn’t deserve to meet her at all.

Apologies, and a lack thereof

After you rescue Ogerpon from being bullied by the resurrected Lousy Three, Carmine shows up with Kieran in tow. Apparently she found him moping around at home and dragged him here to apologise to you about his stunt with the mask. Which, yes, does warrant an apology – but what really frustrates me about this part is that Carmine doesn’t apologise for what you and she did wrong. Sure, she blurted out a couple of cut-off apologies back at Loyalty Plaza, but those never had the intended effect when Kieran was in no emotional state to accept them. Here and now, he’s calmed down enough that he would be able to take on board an apology… but Carmine doesn’t give one. It’s possible that she already apologised at home before bringing him here, but if she’d done that, then she really ought to have got you to also apologise for lying to him, and she doesn’t – so I can only assume that didn’t happen. And you the player can choose to apologise to Kieran here anyway, but since it’s optional, it’s not given nearly the attention it deserves.

Since Kieran never gets a proper apology while he’s in a state to listen, it means he never actually ends up internalising the fact that you were in the wrong to lie to him and he didn’t deserve to be treated that way. Which would have been a really, really important thing for him to realise! As it is, he continues to quietly assume that all of this is his fault for being weak, with nobody to tell him that this way of thinking is flawed.

It's frustrating, but I do kind of get it, from Carmine at least, because she’s also a pretty flawed person. Her deal seems to be that she’s only able to be emotionally sincere in uncontrolled outbursts when she’s worked up, and when she’s calm she covers up her true feelings with bossiness and vanity. Which makes her not at all capable of apologising to Kieran when he’s in a calm enough state to be capable of registering it. These siblings’ issues do not mesh well. Still, here’s hoping that Carmine’s able to self-reflect enough to acknowledge her partial responsibility for Kieran’s suffering by the end of The Indigo Disk.

She does seem to realise her mistake here enough to make a point of trying to include Kieran in their Ogerpon adventures from here on out, at least. But it’s too little too late in terms of how Kieran views things. He seems to have assumed that Carmine dragged him here only to apologise, and not to properly meet Ogerpon or be involved in helping her out, because he expresses surprise when Carmine casually includes him as part of the Mask Retrieval Squad. He was expecting to be shunned and left out as always – what do you mean, she wants him there?

Meeting Ogerpon

The only interaction Kieran was expecting to have with Ogerpon here was giving the fixed-up mask back to her, because he wanted to be the one to do so – but she shies away from him when he offers it. Carmine comments that she’s probably scared of new people, and this is likely the truth, but Kieran’s silent response suggests that he’s not necessarily agreeing with that assessment. Remember, from earlier: Kieran is convinced that Ogerpon values strength. And he’s so used to being shunned by others, especially strong people, because he’s weak. It would be very, very easy for him to come to the irrational conclusion that the reason Ogerpon refuses him is because of his weakness, even though his sister’s suggesting something else.

Despite Kieran’s key misconceptions about Ogerpon’s values, he does continue to understand her better than most people in certain ways. When you try to head into town with her, Kieran’s the one to point out that she’s probably afraid to go in because of the way she’s been treated by the townspeople. He also comments that she’ll feel safe going to retrieve the masks from the Three as long as she’s with you. He empathises with that insecurity and social anxiety enough that, seeing it from Ogerpon in person, he can instinctively see that’s the case about her too.

And yet… seeing Ogerpon’s fear, and understanding that she’s scared of being shunned just like him (which he previously said the ogre didn’t care at all about!), doesn’t actually change the part of Kieran that is also irrationally convinced that she only cares about strength. There’s no moment in which he seems to be re-evaluating Ogerpon or realising anything new about her upon seeing her being afraid. The part where she’s shy and afraid, and the part where she’s strong and cool and therefore values strength in others, manage to be separate enough in his mind that he never actually cross-references them to realise that one of these surely can’t be as true as he thinks it is. So his false conviction that things are about strength to Ogerpon still remains, unchallenged.

Staying behind

Then, even though Carmine is making an active point of trying to include him, Kieran… chooses not to come with you on the mission to retrieve the masks. This is despite the fact that this’d be his best chance to spend time with Ogerpon and hopefully get her to warm up to him, which you’d think would be his priority when he’s quietly hoping to maybe have the chance to become her partner.

But even though it would be a logical choice for Kieran to come with them, it makes perfect sense to me why he doesn’t. As far as he sees things, you and Carmine are way stronger than him and already have the fights against the Three covered – he’d be nothing but a useless third wheel hanging back, only there out of Carmine’s pity for him and not because he’s needed. And in terms of Ogerpon, Kieran is the kid who visited her den countless times but never had the courage to call out to her and ask to be friends. Of course he knows he wouldn’t have the confidence to actually try and get closer to Ogerpon, especially not when she’s already got someone she likes (someone who’s strong while he’s weak, which is clearly what matters to her, right). He knows he’ll just spend the whole time watching Ogerpon obviously like you way more than him while not being able to do a thing about it, and it’ll just make him feel even more jealous and left out.

(Trust me, as someone with social anxiety who spent a lot of my childhood being low-key outcasted by my so-called friend groups, I get it. When you’ve lived like that, integrating yourself with new people can feel downright impossible, no matter how much you may want it.)

So Kieran doesn’t come on the mission – but it’s not like he just uselessly sulks around, either. He spends the time doing something else to help Ogerpon, something neither you nor Carmine seemingly thought needed to be done: telling the town the truth that she was never a bad guy. Because of course Kieran understands best just how hard it is for Ogerpon to be shunned and outcast by everyone, and of course he has some Strong Feelings that people deserve to be told the truth, hmm I wonder where that might have come from. This task is really difficult and scary for him, too, because he hates talking to people – but he does it anyway, for Ogerpon’s sake! What a brave lad!

(I’ve seen people side-eye the fact that the villagers accept the truth and turn around their view of Ogerpon so easily, but honestly it doesn’t seem unreasonable to me. I get the mask maker way back when being persecuted because the villagers of the time saw Ogerpon kill the Three and made assumptions, but, like, it’s been generations. All of the witnesses who had that emotional gut reaction to the fight are long dead. Most of the people alive today didn’t even truly believe the story of the ogre was real until the Loyal Three showed up – they just thought it was a fun folktale that gives their village some unique culture. So for them to be told “hey, the ogre is real, but also the story’s backwards and the ogre’s actually the good guy”… so what? I was always sceptical of Grandpa’s conviction that the truth must never be told to the village (because… people will get angry that they were lied to? So therefore you should just keep lying to them so they never find out they have something to be angry about? Yes, great tactic, it worked so well on Kieran). Kieran basically just went and proved that there really was nothing to be worried about all along and the people should have been told the truth ages ago.)

His final chance to be strong

So now we reach the end, where Ogerpon makes it clear that she wants to stay with you, and… and even though he must have seen this coming, Kieran can’t accept it happening without trying to fight against it.

This isn’t even really about Kieran wanting Ogerpon’s friendship in and of itself. It’s more about what the concept of being partners with Ogerpon means to him. This whole time, he’s been obsessed with the ogre, and yet only letting himself imagine that maybe one day when he’s stronger, he could be its friend. He’s fixated on the idea of befriending Ogerpon as something that will mean he’s strong and no longer alone and everything is good now. Obviously this is extremely irrational and not necessarily true nor the sole way to fix his problems, but that’s how things are in Kieran’s head.

And so, with recent events making him feel even more weak and outcast than ever, you being effortlessly strong and cool enough to befriend Ogerpon on top of everything else feels to Kieran like it’s about to take away his one chance to turn things around, forever. Of course he can’t just let that happen without at least trying to have things his way. He says right at the beginning of the battle: “I know you’re probably a better trainer for Ogerpon, but I… I…” – and he can’t even voice the end of that sentence. He can’t put into words why he feels like he needs to become Ogerpon’s partner even though he knows he's being selfish and she’d be better off with you, because it’s not based in any conscious logic and is all just one big subconscious irrational mess of his issues and inferiority complex.

I’ve seen a lot of people condemn Kieran for this part, saying that he’s ignoring Ogerpon’s wishes because he’s planning to force her to join him whether she wants to or not if he wins. However, I firmly disagree that Kieran has any such thing in mind here. Remember, he’s still labouring under the misconception that what Ogerpon cares about most is strength. He thinks she likes you so much because you’re so strong (remember the previous time he battled you in front of the den, where he commented that the ogre must be thinking how strong you are if it’d seen that?), and that she refused the mask from him that one time because he’s weak. So Kieran has convinced himself that if he can prove himself to be stronger than you, by defeating you in a battle while Ogerpon’s watching, then she’ll naturally choose him to be her trainer over you. Right?

When Carmine says that he has to consider Ogerpon’s feelings, Kieran’s simply silent for a moment before saying “…I want to battle anyway.” He’s not denying that Ogerpon’s choice is what matters – he just believes, or is at least trying to believe, that her choice will be determined by this battle. And of course he doesn’t say anything like “Ogerpon will choose me if I’m stronger than you”, because – well, perhaps because a lot of this is also subconscious enough that he can’t articulate it, but even if any of it was conscious, he knows it’d sound stupid. Especially the part where he’d be talking like it’s possible for him to beat you, because deep down, he still completely convinced that’s impossible.

Plus, nowhere in this does Kieran bring up the fact that he told the village the truth about Ogerpon as a point in his favour for why she might choose him – which supports that it’s not about any kind of friendly gestures to him and he’s convinced she’ll make her decision entirely based on strength. (And it also proves that he did that out of a genuine desire to help Ogerpon, without any ulterior motives of trying to get her to like him!)

Just before the battle, he says: “Whoever wins gets to be Ogerpon’s partner… So don’t… don’t you dare hold back!” – making a point of demanding you don’t hold back, even though you might think he’d want any advantage he can get towards supposedly winning Ogerpon’s favour. But this makes perfect sense when you realise what this is about to Kieran. He believes that Ogerpon will choose (and deserves to choose) whichever of you is the strongest, and this battle won’t actually prove that if he only wins because you were holding back against him.

Kieran also thanks you for not holding back when you land your first super effective hit, which I enjoy. He’s so used to being patronised and seen as weak and pathetic, so he’s actually glad that you’re taking him seriously and viewing him as a legitimate opponent.

And, hey, he is! His team is pretty stacked: a full six Pokémon with solid movesets, and even strategic held items (at least in the postgame version). Assuming you’re not over-levelled, it’s quite a challenging fight, as it should be. Kieran is trying so, so hard to be strong enough, because this poor kid has convinced himself that all of his problems and pain are due to him being weak, and he is so desperate to fix that by proving himself even stronger than you, strong enough to win Ogerpon’s favour.

When he loses, he just crumples, and it’s heartbreaking. Kieran had so much more riding on this battle than just befriending Ogerpon – this was what felt like his one and only chance to stamp out the part of him that feels crushingly inferior and like he deserves to be treated like dirt. Guhhh.

And of course the first thing out of his mouth is, “Figures.” His inferiority complex runs so deep that, no matter how hard he’d trained and how genuinely really good his team had grown, he never truly believed that he ever had a chance at beating someone as cool and strong as you. He was just desperately trying to convince himself that he at least had a shot, because he couldn’t bear to give up without trying.

I really wish you could tell Kieran how good he was in this battle! It truly is impressive how much better he’s grown at battling since the first one, in such a short space of time, too. Just because he’s not quite as strong as you doesn’t mean he’s weak, not by a long shot. But nobody tells him any such thing, so Kieran continues to view things in that irrationally all-or-nothing way. He lost, so he's weak, end of.

Then he has to stand there and watch you battle Ogerpon in order to catch her. Before all of this happened, Kieran would have been so stoked to see his hero the ogre showing off just how cool and strong she is – and hey, her powers really are pretty awesome to behold! But here, despite the amazing spectacle in front of him, Kieran just looks supremely awkward. Like he doesn’t feel like he deserves to be here. Like he doesn’t even have the right to get to see Ogerpon’s full strength in all its glory. You’re the only one who’s strong enough to have earned this.

He does make one possible comment during the battle, if you land a critical hit on Ogerpon: “You really are good… I’m no match.” Which is a bit excessive, considering that really anyone is capable of critting Ogerpon if they get lucky – but apparently Kieran’s thoughts during this battle are still incredibly hung up on just how strong you are and how he’ll never be able to measure up to you. This goes to show that his issues at this point have shifted to be more about you than about Ogerpon. Which tracks, since his admiration for the ogre was never quite about Ogerpon herself and was more about what her strength represented to him – and now you’ve come along and given him an even bigger example of impossibly cool strength, in a much more painful way.

Once you’ve captured Ogerpon, Kieran manages to awkwardly congratulate you on it – hey, he’s doing his best not to be a sore loser! – laments once again why he can’t be like you, and then runs off. No doubt he’s feeling a huge heap of uncontainable painful emotions that he does not want to show in front of you or Carmine and needs to go let out in private. This kid is Not Okay.

So, in summary: Kieran comes out of all this with the message that all of his pain and suffering and loneliness is his fault because he’s still too weak, and he will only ever be strong enough to put all that behind him once he’s stronger than you. And to do that, he needs to get so, so much stronger, almost impossibly so, no matter what he has to do to achieve it. I’m sure this will be Just Fine leading into The Indigo Disk. (: (: (:

And one last thing: the game doesn’t let this happen, but if Kieran had won that final battle against you, I believe things might actually have turned out better. Because let’s face it, Ogerpon would probably still have chosen to go with you anyway, and if she had, Kieran would have been forced to face the fact that it was never actually about strength to her. It wouldn’t even be that hard for him to understand that, given that he’d already noticed the indications that she was scared of being shunned by the townspeople and that she liked you because you made her feel safe. This would help Kieran recontextualise things a little and stop focusing so unhealthily on gaining more battling strength as the One Thing that will solve all his problems. He still wouldn’t exactly be suddenly fixed and happy, but… things wouldn’t be quite so bad, at least. Alas, you are Too Protagonist to lose and let that happen.

[honey-milk-depresso]

Batboys watching anime with reader

You know my ass went FULL ON LOCK MODE with Tim. I went crazy- 💀

***S/o is above 18, which means characters below are also aged up!

Doing requests until 1 Feb! Please see my pinned post and read the request rules on the navi! Thank you!🩷

Batbros watching anime with you

Dick Grayson

He’s watched a few 90s anime before, more the basic ones like One Piece and Pokémon, and he probably still watches them to this day. Boy has old CDs he has and you should probably try finding a Blue Ray (or use his if he can have Tim help fix it because it’s good as dead 💀) because he’s popping in every CD of old anime’s he have lying about.

“Wow, I didn’t know I had cowboy bebop! Or Slam Dunk!” He got a few rare gems, which makes it all the more fun to sit down on the couch under a blanket as you huddle and watch the nostalgic 90s anime shows together while eating popcorn.

He doesn’t mind watching new, modern day animes, just be prepared for when you two watch sad anime shows because he will sob like it’s the end of the world.

“NO, WHY WOULD KAORI DIE LIKE THIS?? AND SHE LOVES ARIMA- OH MY GOD IM SO—”sobs even more. He gets emotional while watching them because it’s so sad that it’s sO GOOD-

Loves dancing to those danceable anime music with you. He goes ALL. OUT. He even sings all of it in Japanese like wow-

I would love to hear him sing Cruel Angel’s Thesis in his Discowing suit and with goth makeup on it because it “sets the mood”, PLEASE-

Overall, great time watching with Dick. <3

Jason Todd

You expect someone like him to like Chainsaw Man, Trigun or something like those grunge-y, guns and knives animes, right? I mean, he does, but only with you and ONLY with you will he let his inner Magical Girl enthusiast ass shine. Because he LOVES Magical Girl animes. That’s probably the reason and one point of time why he wore red ribbons around his arms, he wanted that Sailor Moon experience and Tim might’ve just teased him about that era without knowing his love for Magical Girl animes and Jason might’ve flipped and freaked the fuck out and started chasing him down the manor.

Jason watches Sailor Moon, Madoka when he feels edgier than usual, Cardcaptor Sakura, every Precure series, Tokyo Mew Mew, man has all these shows somehow. He swears they weren’t through illegal means and he just worked very hard to gather all of them. He also might be a shoujo anime fan because if he loves Jane Austen books, you bet his ass would be reading Fruits Basket, Maid Sama or something because of course he would.

Also a Studio Ghibli fan, although watching the Tale of Princess Kaguya might make him feel too much, especially getting pissed off with the dad who forces his daughter into a wealthy life without her input and- yeah, you gotta calm him down as he cries bitterly and sourly with a pout on his face.

The two of you can go on and on about debating about unclear endings of animes all day long. You know the “AND SHE WAS A PRINCESS” video? That’s Jason.

Great man to watch anime with, and he’ll gladly be your Tuxedo Mask to your Sailor Moon (and not the “But you did nothing meme- or the other way around- he don’t mind being the Usagi-). <3

Tim Drake

I’m very convinced this man got into his whole detective shit because he watched Detective Conan and honestly I can’t blame him. Tim has probably the largest vessel of anime knowledge out of all of them. He doesn’t really have a specific genre he likes but he’s pretty fond of old 90s and 80s animes. He can explain the whole lore of One Piece, Fairytale, Pokémon like Jesus Tim, calm down- 💀

I can see him watching Neon Genesis Evangelion, Serial Experiments Lain or Key the Metal Doll because he likes that little bit of horror nature and mystery and thriller in his animes although he really doesn’t mind watching Haikyuu all over again if you want to.

Might introduce you to underrated and/or old animes like Revolutionary Girl Utena, Nadia the Secrets of Blue Water, every Studio Ghibli movie, those kinds of animes that give off the really pretty and aesthetic old anime animations that is just so pretty to watch and with really good storylines that both of you can cuddle on a couch together and watch. I bet he even watches anime with you even before you two got together, so you guys pretty much have “watching anime together” as part of the foundation of your relationship. Owns so much manga that you can’t even count, too.

Just… don’t make him watch those really slow burn, comedy love animes, specifically Love War. Not that he don’t like romance animes, he watches Ouran High School Host Club and Your Name, trust me, but Love War? He is going absolutely insane because of it.

“OH MY GOD- PLEASE JUST KISS ALREADY. ME AND S/O ARE ALREADY TOGETHER FIVE MONTHS AGO ANF YOU TWO ARE STILL TOO PROUD TO ADMIT YOU LOVE EACH OTHER WHILE BLUSHING- JUST KISS ALREADY-” <3

Damian Wayne

Damian likes anime. Would 100% go to an anime convention with you as a date if you’re up for it. He doesn’t mind (surprisingly- just for you only-).

He doesn’t necessarily like showmen animes although he has enjoyed a few, but he really loves slice of life, I feel. It just feels like he wants to put himself in a normal life and with a tad bit of drama in it like what the characters go through. The touching ones like Hyouka or Natsume’s Book of Friends.

Also animal related anime maybe except Beastars because he didn’t understand shit-?? He calls that peak anime. Aggretsuko, Chi’s Sweet Home and My Roommate is a Cat?? Damian loves this shit, he watches it intently with his arm around you. Even if he doesn’t smile, you know he loves it by the way his eyes sparkle.

Just don’t tell his brothers. He will seriously feel betrayed if you do so because he only watches these kinds of shows with you: the cute animal ones that are actually wholesome and/or funny.

The whole family is into Studio Ghibli, and he is no exception. He feels like it’s the best kinds of anime to watch with you when you guys just want to turn in for the day and huddle up on the couch. It’s one of the rare times he relaxes and softens and he’s glad to have quality time with you. <3

Duke Thomas

He likes anime! Studio Ghibli is definitely a favourite of his and he would gladly watch it together with you! He also love a fair bit of Shounen animes, the more popular ones like Jujutsu Kaisen, One Piece, Haikyuu, or Spy x Family. He likes them a lot!

A big fan of romance animes too: Ouran High School Host Club and The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya (if you two are in the mood to huddle on the couch together and cry).

Duke doesn’t mind any kind of anime so long as it doesn’t have too much horror or gore like… Higurashi. He gets chills when that anime is mentioned. D-Don’t watch it for your own sake if you don’t know. And if you do, avoid it with him at all cost because he will.

Duke also like singing some good anime songs with you and you guys can go crazy and dance around, just not as dramatic as Dick.

He would be super excited to spend a date with you watching shounen anime movies like from Jujutsu Kaisen and he would be so hype to spend time with you being a fanboy while also sharing that romantic air for the shared love of anime between you two and the love that you two share, although that love is far stronger. <3

Reblogs help! ^^

[grahambaham]

So I've been complaining about “pit madness” a lot lately and I’d like to clear up that I don’t mind it being used as a plot device sometimes. Like, for example, Dark Matter by mysterycyclone uses it to create more conflict for Peter who we see struggling with it. I like that. That’s a cool way of adding to the dc universe, as long as it’s acknowledged as not canon and made for the purposes of the fic.

What I most certainly do have a problem with is using it as abuse apologia, as someone who read my earlier post called it. 99% of the time the pit madness is introduced as a way to excuse the actions of people under the influence of it, no matter how bad, making it so that the victims of that madness cannot blame the person who did all those things because it wasn’t really them. Fans of Jason are always the ones doing that because they can’t like a character who isn’t a perfect goody two shoes and have to find new ways to victimise and excuse him. It also makes it easy for the other Gotham/Bludhaven vigilantes, like Bruce Dick and Tim, to forgive him and be able to easily accept him back into the family without acknowledging that they’ve ever been wronged by Jason in the first place.

It happens in other media and fandoms too. Using any sort of implied mind control or emotional manipulation or just mental illness of characters to excuse the hurt they’ve caused.

As a plot device for fics though, that’s not used as abuse apologia or shit like that? Love it. It’s always super interesting to see, especially when new and interesting characters are shown as “under its influence”. Btw the excusing and stuff isn’t just about Jason, it’d be utter dog shit if they used it as an excuse for these other characters to do horrible things and be easily forgiven or whatever, so this isn’t Jason specific.

[ghost-bxrd]

i know irl tims im better than jason in every way attitude from his early runs was the authors way of telling people how much they hated jason without literally saying it, however

id like to see more of that characterization in fan works because ive gotten overwhelmed with how the only way i see tim written ever is hero worshipping jasons robin, self depreciating self sacrificing savant

id be interesting to see how ppl try to wrap themselves around a tim thats not their usual guy

I think part of the reason that there’s so little of that characterization going around is that few people resonate with it. Blaming a literal kid teen for getting himself killed by a madman just seems wrong, and having that come from a character that’s supposed to be the hero of the story? Yeeeeeah, questionable at best. But that’s the very early Tim depiction as far as I’m aware, and later on Tim’s character gained a lot more substance.

Tbh I’m an avid fan of the fanon hero worship of Jason’s Robin, but I can totally understand that’s not your thing.

Although! not having Tim idolize Jason doesn’t necessarily mean he actively has to trash talk him (sliding from one extreme to the next, so to speak ksksksks)! We can easily have a badass Tim Drake who takes no shit and is a formidable Robin (whom instills fear in the criminal populace of Gotham) who doesn’t use Jason as a cautionary tale every other sentence.

For example, Wayne Family Adventures handles Tim and Jason in a pretty unique way. They don’t get along too well, but they take out their animosity on each other with harmless pranks and jibes instead of victim blaming. Both give as good as they get, but at the end of the day they’d still take a bullet for each other. A good compromise between canon and fanon✨

But yeah, the early Tim Drake is certainly… something. Not my cup of tea tho >.<

[kitkats-and-kittens]

I know stan culture is a huge part of fandom and while yes, sometimes I find it annoying it doesn’t really hurt anyone, so I find it okay.

That said I need words with Percy Jackson and Tim Drake stans, because I am sick and tired 😭😭.

I was scrolling through the Will Solace tag because he is my baby and I will defend him for life and obviously as consequence I see a lot of artwork about the battle of Manhattan and all the angst that comes along with it.

I don’t usually see people blaming Percy for Michael’s death which is fine cause it absolutely wasn’t Percy’s fault, even if I personally don’t believe a 12 year old would be mature enough to see it that way.

Still, I saw a post talking about how sad it was that Will got dragged away to heal Annabeth and couldn’t help the Apollo Cabin search for his bother. It was mostly going into detail about how he might feel responsible for not being there when most of his siblings died.

And I thought wow, that’s really angsty and then I went to the comments and the first thing I saw was a Percy Jackson fan saying it’s not Percy’s fault and Will should get over it because it’s war and shit happens.

Like hello? That is a 12 year old??? No one’s saying it was Percy’s fault, but how the hell do you expect a literal 12 year old to get over his brothers death seconds after it happened?!?!

And again in Dc comics.

This happens way too often, but specially in that one scene where Damian finds out Tim has him on like this hit list-contingency plan thing and obviously he gets upset, because he sees it as Tim still punishing him over something he is trying really hard to redeem himself for.

And then I look at the comments and someone’s going.

Well Damian shouldn’t be upset, his actions have consequences and he was the one that broke into Tim’s computer. He shouldn’t get mad.

He’s 10???? Have you met children? Have you met a 10 year old?? They call you names and bully you but the moment you turn it back on them they start crying. Why? Cause they’re 10!

I don’t understand the disconnect some people have when trying to understand children. Like hasn’t everybody been a child? They aren’t mature enough to handle big emotions and nuanced situations cause they don’t have a frontal lobe yet.

I really don’t understand how anyone can get mad at the child character for not being ‘mature enough’ to handle a situation and it drives me insane.

[ruestheday]

Wait, what mean thing did Alfred do to Tim on his 16th birthday??

oh boy

see, this is an instance where i’d be fine if people ignored this happening, because bruce (and therefore as an extension alfred) are like weirdly horrible. even doing my mandatory googling to make sure im remembering everything correctly quickly brought me to posts about everyone agrees how insanely ooc this was for both (even on reddit, which has some of the most comic-obsessed fans), but it still happened unfortunately.

so, for tim’s sixteenth birthday, bruce decides to gift him with surprise training.

tim has a birthday party, and at the end of the night there’s a weird box there. tim freaks the fuck out and takes it to bruce to check out, he does, blah blah blah.

it ends up activating when tim’s alone, and it’s a hologram of alfred in the (apocalyptic) future saying that someone on batman’s team has gone bad and the worlds fucked because of it (and then immediately gets shot and killed before he can finish). tim’s half like “well obviously this is bullshit” and half “HOLY SHIT ???!????” and doesn’t tell bruce because he’s not sure if it’s real or not.

i’m going to summarize, but tim thinks it’s fake at first, and then thinks it’s real (because the guy he was blaming it on was in jail) so he’s like ok cass goes bad (since she’s the newest batfam member — side note: cassandra predates damian as a batfam member so put some respect on her name) and when he decides it’s not cass he tries to figure out how it could be dick.

future!alfred then appears before tim and tells him that yeah he died, but it’s all chill they bring him back, and starts delivering more bad news until tim’s like ??? Ur not real! and rips off future!alfred’s mask to discover it’s just real alfred underneath.

tim’s immediately like upset and disgusted. he demands answer from bruce who is like “just training, get good kid” (and also implies tim is stupid bc he believed it) and tim is like Fuck this. Fuck all of you. I’m out. (he does eventually come back obviously)

he also gets to tell bruce to go to hell. now im a bruce wayne glazer but that was deserved because what the fuck

this is some crazy paraphrasing and i’m positive there are 10x better breakdowns out there. but long story short alfred helped gaslit tim drake into having a mental breakdown on his sixteenth birthday because bruce said to.

i also really don’t like this from bruce’s side because literally what the fuck was that. prime example of the 90s-2000s comic wanting bruce wayne to be a bad guy to appeal to angsty male readers (which was an actual phenomenon and explains a lot of why bruce is so batshit [ha] insane to his family during this era)

edit: this is 1993 robin #116-120 btw

[supercalime]

A goodbye post I guess?

Hey yall, i wanted to write something about all of this as this may be the last time I talk about this show. Apologies in advance, this will be long and all over the place cause im using this little essay to get it off my chest and help me calm down my anxiety. Strap in, this will be a doozy.

First off, no matter how sad and disappointed we are, let’s please not stoop down to the level of those fans when it comes to voicing our issues with this situation. Please, let’s not harass, call people names, send them threats, etc. we can voice our opinions in an adult way, and although it fucking hurts and it makes us want to shout from the rooftops and call Murphy, Minear and Stark every name in the sun, we need to be grown ups and come out on top of it.

That being said, I want to first acknowledge how fun and cool yall are. We endured A LOT of shit since april and all that bullshit didn’t stop you from keeping the positivity going. I applaud you all for that. It has been hard. I came in contact and became friends with some really nice people here and I wouldn’t change it for the world. I loved being a part of this fandom and it physically hurts me that this feels like it was all for nothing.

Even though I feel like a fool as well, I hate to see how you are all so sad with this. This wasn’t our fault. We were not naive for believing that this storyline could’ve been great. Don’t blame yourself for being taken advantage of. Because that’s what they did. They saw the opportunity to profit from a community and took it. They are the ones in the wrong. They used us for brownie points and then tossed us away like trash the second they got what they wanted. It’s on them.

What I’m about to say now will sound hypocritical as I’m writing this at 2am while trying to cope with an anxiety attack caused by this very show, but what we can take away from this is that unfortunately, we can’t rely on tv shows for happiness. Yes, that’s a bitter pill to swallow, specially in this political climate as we were hoping for some sort of escape from the horrors of the elections. What i took away from this is that I need to (for lack of a better word) touch grass. I need hobbies, I need friends. All things that I’ve been lacking because fandom stuff is easier. I need to find stuff that makes me happy that doesn’t depend on outside factors. But also I want to make sure that if a show is all you have, that’s okay and is even more okay to feel betrayed. I was an absolute mess a few years ago when a show I adored stabbed their fans in the back, but it gets better. You still get angry remembering you were done dirty but I promise that the memories that stick are the positive ones.

I don’t wanna go on a deleting spree but I also don’t want to be reminded of this hurtful moment as the wound is still fresh, so I’m deciding to reevaluate some things offline, like I did with previous fandoms, and come back when I’m ready. I don’t think I’ll leave tumblr or never watch/talk about 911 again but I need some time and space from it so I can feel better. I don’t want to doom scroll through the tags like I did tonight. What Ryan Murphy, Tim Minear and Oliver Stark did to us was awful, but the best thing I can do is not let these three men influence my mental health. I won’t let a tv show ruin me because it’s not my fault. It’s not our fault to believe that there were half decent people in the entertainment industry that cares about the portrayal of queer individuals. They will have to sleep at night with that knowledge and deal with the consequences from the BoBs. And if these guys decide to humor the BoBs that’s their funeral. It would further show they never cared about representation and just wanted to save face after making so many people miserable for simply enjoying a canon ship. I hope they can see the consequences because I’m not even the target here. I’m hurt for all the queer men that saw themselves in buck and tommy, that even messaged the actors thanking them for their honest portrayal.

In conclusion, here’s my goodbye (for now).

Thank you so much bucktommy nation!

Yall are the best,

Love, Lety 🖤

[autisticrosewilson]

So I’ve seen some Jason fans talk about how even tho they like him they don’t agree with his kill policy and how at the end of the day his stance on killing is wrong and I don’t really get it. Is it because they’re applying real world ethics to it? Cause yeah obviously killing in real life is wrong, but in a fictional world where it’s been proven over and over that villains, rogues, and violent criminals will escape and cause more harm, he says only way to truly stop them is to kill them, I don’t see how he is wrong? Is it completely motivated by his personal experience with death? Yeah, absolutely. But so are Cass’s beliefs and everyone accepts her stance on killing as valid. I would really appreciate your perspective on it because I’m wondering if I am missing something given how many Jason fans I’ve seen with this opinion.

I totally agree with you! I'm a big fan of Jason being someone who believes that killing is necessary and moral, and that he's not even wrong about it most of the time.

I think what it comes down to is the percentage of people who don't actually read the comics. The people who think Jason should give up killing forever are either the younger "but liking characters who are bad people makes you bad!" Crowd or Batfam/fanon people who are willing to saw off any edges necessary to make all their blorbos fit together. Both of these people obviously run the risk of completely misunderstanding the character and the overall role Jason is meant to play narratively.

I won't put the blame entirely on the fans though, Jason has had a LOT of bad writing (Scott Lobdell when I get you) and the writers kind of hate him, so I think us Jason fans are kind of naturally pretty defensive about Jason because god knows he's been through the character assassination ringer.

Personally I think that if you genuinely can't stand a core and fundamental trait about a character, maybe you shouldn't engage with that character. Jason fans who want Jason to never kill again, to follow all of Bruce's rules, to forgive Tim for everything (shit talking him while he was DEAD), to be besties with Cass and what the fuck ever should just go read Stephanie's comics. It really does seem like she's the character you guys want. And not the happy go lucky ditz that fanon made up, I mean feral, compassionate, rebellious, insanely intelligent and witty canon Steph.

[kindlingkeen]

Hi! I absolutely adore your Asymmetrical Warfare series on AO3 (it’s got me back on a competent Jason Todd kick, which, there’s honestly too little of so if you have any recs pls fire away)!

I did have a curiosity that I hope you don’t mind answering though: are there specific reason why you’re not a Tim fan? And does that extend to other members of the batfam as well?

Hi, anon! I’m so glad you’re enjoying Asymmetrical Warfare (competent Jason ftw!). 🙌

Re: Tim. I should probably be more conscientious with my wording around Tim. A lot of what I say in ao3 comments or here tends toward facetious, and tone doesn’t really come across well online.

Which is not to say there aren’t things about Tim that bug me. For example—canon Tim, there are more than few instances of him being downright shitty to Jay’s memory. Case in point, from Batman #456, Tim imagines Jason’s ghost giving him a pep talk about becoming a hero and Jason says he killed himself because he didn’t listen to Batman.

Ah, no sir, the responsible party was the psychopathic clown with a crowbar and some explosives, not the 15 year old trying to save his newly discovered biological mother.

But is this really Tim the character’s fault? Or is it dc’s fault for creating a narrative that brutally murdered a child and then spent decades trashing his memory and blatantly victim-blaming him for it?

It’s really more fanon depictions of Tim that I have a problem with. In particular, the tendency to project Jason’s trauma onto Tim. Trying to spin the white boy who came from an affluent two-parent household as somehow more neglected than the kid whose parents are dead/incarcerated and was literally homeless is just ??? Jason’s backstory touches on so many important societal issues (the gutting of the social safety net, the industrial prison complex, the opioid epidemic, the criminalization of poverty, the stigmatization of sex work), and this approach sweeps all of that under the rug.

It also really gets my goat how many fics masquerade as being about Jason, but are actually just a vehicle for Tim time. These stories tend to dramatize Tim’s character, whether it’s woobie, touch-starved little Timmy who needs constant reassurance and protection, or smarter than everyone ever, can not be out thought or out fought, is actually a CEO while he should be in high school Tim. My problem with this type of narrative is usually two-fold. 1) It dumbs down Jason’s characterization (which should be so rich and complex) to ridiculously oversimplified motivations and actions. And 2) it turns Tim into a caricature of himself, instead of a compelling character with a balance of strengths and weaknesses and a normal amount of teenaged self-esteem.

It probably doesn’t sound like it from this blog post, but I do really try hard in life not to yuck other people’s yum. Just because I don’t care for how Tim is portrayed, it doesn’t make it inherently bad or wrong. And all of this aside, I’ve read plenty of fics where I enjoyed Tim just fine. For example, I love how @bonerot19 writes Tim in their Something in the Static series. And Tim and Jay’s dynamic in WFA is often amusing.

So, yeah, bottom line. Tim is … fine. I’m just not a fan, per se. I try to at least write him fairly in Asymmetrical Warfare, with both the realistic shortcoming of a teenage boy and the awesomeness of Robin. He’s never going to get the same amount of page time as the rest of the crew is, though.

Re: the rest of the batfam. I mean, I often want to bop Bruce on the nose. Especially canon Bruce who beats up his kids and is completely unrepentant about it. But, honestly, that’s not my Bruce. My Bruce, who I love and love to hate in turn, would never do that. (Compartmentalization, the key to happy fic reading and writing.)

I love Babs and Dick. I want to be besties with Steph, but in reality she’s way too cool for me. Duke and Cass I’m less familiar with, but have no problems with. Damian is growing on me, and if dc would just give up the game and admit that Dami and Jay met in the LoA and are actually super special murder brothers at heart, that would be great. Selina is a queen and someday I will write that Selina + Jay and Dami meet in the LoA fic I’ve been dreaming about.

Re: competent Jason fic recs. One of my favorites is butcherbird, fly away home by e_va @e-vasong. Bonus rec, the same author put out a new fic recently, another way to make it to ten, and it not only features competent Jason, it’s Jason & Tim, and I like Tim in it.

Thanks so much for the ask, anon! Really great questions. Kudos if you made it through the whole post. 💙

[mysterycitrus]

You’ve talked about how fandom treats jtodd & dick, so what are your thoughts on how fandom treats dick & tim?

There’s this post that’s asking about people’s batfamily hot takes, and I was scrolling through the reblogs bc I love drama. One of the “hot takes” was calling dick a bad brother bc of the bruce lost in time comic era. Specifically saying that fandom excuses dick’s shitty behavior towards Tim bc his dad (Bruce) died and because of the stress of taking care of the city by himself. While Tim was hurting because of the deaths of Kon, Bart, Jack, Steph, and Donna (idk why they included Donna as Tim’s grief and not Dick’s??) and therefore Tim’s & Dick’s hurt and stress aren’t the same. According to this person, Tim was going through it and Dick was making it worse.

Now, I’m not going to claim I know how everything went down since I haven’t read those comics yet, but this feels like a gross misunderstanding of the arc.

From what I’ve seen, fandom tends to invalidate and villainize Dick during this time in favor of Tim. Dick is not being excused, in fact he’s being blamed for things that are either not his fault or just made up in order to whump Tim. Idk that “hot take” just rubbed me the wrong way because of how one-sided it was, and I guess it made me wonder about your thoughts about Dick & Tim since I tend to agree with your opinions lmao

fundamentally the issue is this — dick grayson existing and being a good person is an obstacle for fanon angst. dick grayson being a good brother means that jtodd can’t just slot into his pre-existing relationships with tim and cass and damian. dick grayson being a good friends means that he’s close with the titans and the league because he’s competent and trusted. dick grayson being kind means that he didn’t abandon tim, he was literally trying to keep everything together after bruce’s death.

not to try and make it a grief olympics but as much as people talk about everyone tim has lost (and i think they must have been talking about dana winters in that post?) people seem to forget that dick’s city just got nuked + the fallout of nightwing 93 + donna dying + jade dying + the titans falling apart + he was just locked in arkham himself. like… his dad has just died, he’s had to fight off his brother who’d just tried to kill both tim and damian and been given custody over a kid who doesn’t trust him

red robin 2009 has done irreversible harm to tim drakes character. people using that as the starting point for reading about him is bad. it’s a comic about a grief spiral, and it isn’t an amazing depiction of him either. but even then, people just seem to love straight up fabricating what’s in it.

dick tells tim that therapy might be a good idea. tim tells dick that he’s leaving because he trusts dick to let him do what he needs to do. even at his lowest point, dick is who he trusts most. those takes that’re like “tim drake was at his lowest point and then jtodd sees him and realises that he’s cool actually and they bond #jasontoddisagoodbrother #dickgraysonisabadbrother etc” because they like to posit that dick threatened to throw tim in arkham are so silly

that’s even ignoring how people just straight up lie about damian’s actions and how weird everyone is about ra’s al ghul. no, tim isn’t the only one he refers to as detective aside from bruce. no, tim isn’t one step away from being a mass murderer. no, damian didn’t try to kill tim— he was reacting to tim being suspicious of him. tim was beefing with a ten year old. why are u being so mean to the ten year old? (We Know Why)

ur right — it is extremely one-sided. im not one to pretend that canon is flawless by any means, but acting as though fanon is better just because someone online came up with it is also stupid. there are many many racist undertones with how jtodd and tim are interpreted, both separately and with each other. a lot of it is yaoi baiting dynamics, that a lot of fans don’t seem to want to admit. i won’t comment on how white people writing jtodd as latino and tim as asian can be Bad but like…. it’s all tied up together. people want these two characters to have suffered the most, because that justifies everything fans want them to do. they want them to be wronged. they want their idea of justice in their name

[spxdyr]

https://www.tumblr.com/spxdyr/760026877200039936/ryan-has-literally-called-eddie-heterosexual-how

It’s so funny when they try and use these interviews as gotchas. Because he said heterosexual in the context of right now. And he also said regarding buddie it’s baby steps. But they like to leave that part out of their gotcha. And then of course as you pointed out in your reply, by the end of the season Ryan very much and very happily switched to gender neutral terms and hard core comparing Buck and Shannon. But again that’s something they don’t like to admit because it doesn’t fit into their gotcha.

As for the Edy thing. The only person who has ever said that Ryan asked for her back, was Max Gao. A journalist who is well known for hating Ryan because he makes no secret of it, even while actively interviewing him, he will make little snide comments, and he is constantly saying things to create drama because it gets him more clicks on his interviews. It’s why the majority of fandom doesn’t understand why he still even gets access to the actors across all shows not just 911.

But to take it a step further, after that whole thing with Max saying that and Lou also trying to place the blame on Ryan for why Tommy And Eddie didn’t happen, like it was supposed to be from the start (sorry for you BT fans who have it in your head it was always Buck and Tommy) Tim himself did an interview and set both of those incorrect statements to rest (well for the fans who actually are based in reality anyway) and flat out said Edy came back simply because Annelise could not due to the play she was in. Plain and simple. It was even a pretty big oh wow throughout the fandom because it was honestly embarrassing how very crystal clear Tim made it she was his second choice by far. He also explained in detail even going back to the first interview he did after 7.1 aired, how he had the storyline for Buck and Her planned out, including how their relationship would end, and Edy was never supposed to be back. But then Anneliss couldn’t return at the last minute, and he didn’t want both of them to have off screen break ups, Edy was available so he brought her back, and the queer storyline shifted to Buck first. Something Ryan has also said in an interview they like to ignore is how he mentioned Oliver and Him ended up not sure who were going to lead with the *current* coming out storyline. Implying both of them ended up with it being up for grabs for their characters, and a future one storyline. Which also concurrently counters the whole “ryans homophobic and refuses to play gay” nonsense they like to also use as a gotcha because with the information we know of it originally being Eddie and Tommy, and Ryan saying it came down to either of them, Ryan would have had to have had the same conversation that Tim had with Oliver making sure he was ok to do it. And what do you know. He was 🙃

Sorry this got so long but I am so sick and tired of these Bt fans coming into peoples ask boxes spewing their toxic hate and pitiful gotcha attempts as they try desperately to disprove buddie in the defense of their lord and savior Tommy Kinard.

Honestly thank you for all of that. I didn't know who the Edy person was they were talking about in their post. I think it's just crazy cause this whole thing started because I said Bummy's have no media literacy skills and by not understanding the full context of things in and out of the show, they're just proving my point lmao.

[farshootergotme]

I’m going to blunt and say I’m not excited for the Dick Grayson and Jason Todd movie.

Why because how James Gunn is handling it but honestly it is more to do with DC pushing Damian way too much in terms of films. Like does no one exactly want to talk about how awful it is that Damian is being push as the ‘true son’ Like hello what are Dick, Jason and Tim then especially Dick are telling me they’re not his kids because they’re not blood related.

God, this type of thinking sends shivers down my spine it’s like how the fandom goes they’re not blood related so it’s fine to ship these characters who literally have familial bond and view each other as siblings and in Bruce case a surrogate father and a guardian. Look I get it is just fiction and all that jazz but maybe reflect to yourself on why you think that it is not to demonising you for your likes in taboo ships but to consider why people get uncomfortable with that mentality. I’m honestly just so sick of this small silly trend going on with DC non-bio children are less valuable then bio children and no amount of hate towards Bruce as a character will change the fact that this is not okay.

Look I get people do not like Bruce but at the end of the day taking Batman out of the picture completely changes Dick and Jason lives wether you like it or not Bruce as a character has a heavy impact on them.

While I have my gripes with how some Nightwing and mainly Redhood comic writers tend to villainise Bruce way too much and even flat out make him go against his character and morals. I’m looking at you Dixon Nightwing year one and probably Robin year one by him as well, sorry forever basis to Dark victory which is my preferred Batman and Robin origin story. (Maybe that will change with the new Batman and Robin year one this year, I’m so excited for that I hope it’s good.)

Like seriously writers I’m sick of this stop having Bruce be the main conflict of the story let Dick and Jason have their own agency as characters. Making it revolve around Bruce makes seem like you have no faith in them as characters to hold their own without anything tied to Batman. Comic book writers I challenge you to make story with Bruce and his children without being him being the main conflict like you can have family conflict without being written in a flat out abusive way and making Bruce even bend out of character for drama and being overly dark and edgey.

Like Jason can be such a fascinating character but you have to be willing to accept he is a morally grey character and while yes he can conflict with Batman it is more about their beliefs on what is justice and how they approach that said justice and how it should be served.

Batman is not a bad father for not wanting to go against his beliefs what Jason is asking from Bruce is honestly selfish ask, just so he prove that he loved his son even though Bruce does care about his son to point it destroyed him mentally that he died. Look I get he is hurting it’s understandable but honestly redhood writers need to accept that he does things that need to face consequences for his actions taking a life even if a criminal has consequences to think about and how it can affect one psyche then you need to think about a even though a criminal death effects people close to them. Aka stop blaming Bruce for every choice and action Jason makes it takes away his agency as character in general writers.

But challenge for Bruce writers mostly male writers stop making him hit his kids for the sake of drama and violence or just being ‘dark’ or for no reason at all. While I don’t mind conflict and Bruce having a rare scuffle with his children, I’m honestly just tired of it which is why world finest is so healing for me as both a Dick Grayson and Bruce Wayne fan.

Opps, I got a bit off topic there. But my point being, I feel trying separating the Robins from Batman is just unfortunate especially given I like the connection between Dick and Bruce and they both learn to become both partners in arms but also a family.

I don’t know maybe I am just upset that I’m denied my original dynamic duo again in a film. Especially I feel sometimes writer are ashamed of Dick origins as Robin which is just disappointing but also forcing Dick and Jason to have a relationship they didn’t have in the film just feels so wrong to me. Like yes they’re brothers but you’re sacrificing apart of Dick character and who he is just so you tell a story about them being in the streets together. Maybe it can work but who knows but I just feel it wasn’t done with the best of intentions behind it, especially given how DC is currently pushing Damian as batman only son in the film media at least.

But those are just my thoughts and I’m happy for those that are excited about the film but from what I heard about it so far it’s just not the Robin film for me.

I see your points.

I personally don't have many expectations for the movie? I mean, I'll probably watch it when it releases, but I'm not particularly excited about it since I'm not really a fan of character's origins being changed. Like, I get it'd be difficult to have two Robins in the same movie and show both their origins separately, but I guess when I heard about it I just thought how amazing it'd be to finally get a good Robin movie that followed the comics only to find out it was more of an alternative universe that might change people's perceptions of the characters for those who don't know anything about the comics.

I'm mostly worried there'll be people now thinking this is the true origin of Dick and Jason—but specially Dick, since Jason gets something more similar to his origin story.

However, perhaps it's possible Dick did have his Circus origin, but instead of ending up with Bruce, he escapes and ends up finding Jason. And I think it's possible Dick will find Batman later and that's how he becomes Nightwing, but that's just me guessing.

All in all, I don't disagree with people who are excited for this film, but I don't necessarily agree either. I suppose I'll just wait and see how it goes without getting my expectations too high or too low. Who knows? Maybe it ends up being better than what I imagine.