#pre flashpoint universe

[karacassiefan1]

Cassiekara in all eras and realities:

Cassiekara in the 80s and 90s

Cassiekara in the early 2000s

Cassiekara mid 2000s

Cassiekara in the new 52

Cassiekara in rebirth

Cassiekara in injustice

Cassiekara in dc bombshells

Cassiekara in dcasead

[necrotic-nephilim]

not enough TimJay content takes advantage of the fact that the Red Robin mantle and suit were Jason's first, and Tim effectively stole Jason's shit that Jason wanted to throw away. Tim took Jason's name, his suit, to go on a one-man crusade when he's at odds with the Batfamily. You're telling me Jason wouldn't be weirdly offended but also weirdly turned on by that?

robin (1993) #177

robin (1993) #178

And yes, Tim only knows about the Red Robin suit's existence because Ulysses Armstrong stole it for a hot second, but the fact he stole the suit from Ulysses and fucking kept it? Even before he had any reason to? Like before becoming Red Robin, Tim just kept a suit he knew belonged to Jason despite openly disliking Jason for. Reasons. And later on, it's explicitly confirmed Tim's wearing it because it's Jason's legacy? That's the most toxic gay shit I've ever seen.

adventure comics (2009) #3

Tim's punishing himself with Jason's image. Jason, who has been constantly trying to get Tim to see things his way and work with him would lose his mind over that. There's such a potential for a toxic possessiveness to it all, Tim branding himself with Jason's suit and name. The assumptions Jason would make about Tim because of it. The way Jason could hold that over Tim's head, that they really are one and the same, and deep down, Tim must know it to some degree, if he became Red Robin when he felt replaced as Robin. I truly do not think Jason would ever shut up about it. As a fan of 'possessive/weirdly obsessed with Tim' Jason, I think this would take Jason's weird feelings about Tim to the next level. And if Tim will punish himself just by wearing Jason's legacy, imagine how much more he'd punish himself for falling for Jason too. Weird freaky little masochist who tortures himself through Jason seems exactly Jason's type, tbh. I'm feral about it.

[tastycitrus]

Barbara: Steph and Cass have been queerbaiting for nearly twenty slutty, slutty years... Steph and Cass, hearing this over comms: Steph: Oracle, what is that supposed to mean? Cass: What are you talking about? Steph: What the HELL is that supposed to mean??

[starsapphire]

90% of post-reboot comics fill me with the violent rage of "he would not fucking say that" but then it's a different universe so i guess the prime earth variant would say that. what i'm trying to say is prime earth must be so fucking miserable

[batmanshole]

bette's original character arc being so filled with sexism is soooo.... well its ok i think shes a lesbian and her crush on dick was comphet.

[aalghul]

Another thing that annoys me about “Cass, Steph and Damian died too” as a response to Jason just existing (besides that Jason doesn’t bring up his death to use against others nearly as much as people think he does), is that “they got over it, why can’t you?” and belittling him for not being a “perfect victim” is all in such bad taste, for obvious reasons. Then there’s the fact that none of those deaths are the same as Jason’s so the comparison doesn’t work even if we decided to judge characters on how well they fit the mold of a victim that doesn’t make a fuss.

Cass’ death is her being freed from her death wish. She’s not expecting revenge because she signed up for it. I don’t even know what to say about that because it’s all pretty clearly stated in the text.

Steph’s death was retconned into not being an actual Death death, first of all. Otherwise, we see her struggling to piece together her relationships in the aftermath of her return. Also, her death can’t be acknowledged too much because Bruce has been repeatedly absolved of all blame (that being pushed off to Leslie instead, originally) and speaking about how Bruce failed her isn’t something she’s allowed to do as a character who has to stay entirely on one side of the fight (because most characters don’t get to question Batman or believe he failed them, not without being framed as something less than morally sound). Jason gets to openly criticize Bruce but at the cost of never being one of the Bats like Steph is, and the inverse is true for Steph (irt pre-flashpoint).

Damian’s big death should be ignored because there’s literally not a way to have that storyline happen without being racist. We understand this, yes? And the rest don’t last longer than an issue. Let’s not pretend it’s comparable with Jason being dead and buried for over a decade in real time, actually dead and buried for 6 months in-universe, and believed dead for 3 years in-universe.

[soleminisanction]

Okay this misconception keeps coming across my dash and it drives me nuts because it means people are lumping two very different versions of the DC universe under one disparaging banner. So let me just say this to get it off my chest because I'm this close to shaking somebody:

The New 52 ended seven years ago in 2016.

That started a section of DC's history called "Rebirth" in which they started bringing elements of the pre-Flashpoint continuity back into the timeline. The first changes came in a big burst called Convergence -- which is how Jon Kent effectively manifested fully formed at 10 years old -- while other reintroductions like Kon-El, Bart Allen, Cass Cain, etc. were more gradual.

The original plan, being forced through by King of Bad Decisions Dan Didio, was that after ~4-5 Rebirth would give way to another full reboot known as 5G. I could go into detail about the plans but they're honestly not important to this post because Didio was (thankfully, finally) ousted from his role as publisher early in 2020, along with something like 80% of the higher-level editorial staff. DC had a complete creative turn-over at the start of the pandemic and completely changed directions as a result. The material being developed for 5G was retooled into the hypothetical future event "Future State" to buy the new staff time to pull together their new direction.

That new direction is called INFINITE FRONTIER. It started in 2021 and THAT is the era of DC comics we're in now. Infinite Frontier is an active push to bring back the pre-Flashpoint characters, as well as some pre-Crisis ideas and characters, while also keeping the few elements of the New 52 that people actually liked (like Jason Todd's more heroic characterization) and actively pursuing diversity initiatives both in creative staff and in creations. And outside of the big events, they're making a real effort to keep these comics short and self contained in the hopes that that'll make them more accessible. So it's actually really easy, if you read comics pre-Flashpoint and dropped off, to just pick up a series and go with the flow. Anything confusing is just a Google away.

Please, please don't make the mistake of thinking modern comics are as bad as the New 52 just because some people are butthurt their ship isn't getting canonized. There have been some really good comics made in the last few years that you should totally try! Spirit World, Monkey Prince and the entire We Are Legends line has been genuinely fantastic. The new Birds of Prey is shaping up to be a ton of fun. Dark Knights of Steel is an entertaining Elseworld. Urban Legends and Brave & the Bold have done some really fun things with shorter anthology books. One Minute War was a really fun Flash family event and everything Stargirl's done recently is liable to make you cry.

I'm begging people to give these comics a chance. It's just really sad to see them being dismissed out of hand.

[dc-polls]

Biggest DC Misconception

Round 1 - Match 5

Tim Drake grew up next door to the Waynes

Misconception: that Tim spent his entire childhood living next door to the Waynes, in a suburb of Gotham rather than the city itself. Canon: In the post-Crisis pre-Flashpoint era of comics, Tim Drake's family had at least one residence in Gotham City on the island itself, and are never directly referred to as living anywhere else. After Tim's mother Janet dies in the comics, Tim convinces his father Jack to buy a house in Bristol (a mainland suburb of Gotham) next door to Bruce Wayne (Alfred found the listing for the house and passed it along to Tim). A few years later in-universe Jack, Tim, and Tim's stepmother Dana have to sell that house (referred to as Drake Manor) and move into an apartment once more in Gotham City on the island itself. Some fans see Tim living in Bristol for part of his comics, or see other fans mention it, and assume that Tim grew up in that suburb next door to the Waynes his entire childhood. This leads to misconceptions about his family's relationship to the Waynes, Tim's relationship to Gotham City, and what his early childhood experiences may have been like. It can further lead to fans insisting Tim has less connection to Gotham than other Bat team members.

And another submission...

Fanon constantly puts Tim at Drake Manor as a child but he didn't move in until after Jack woke up from his coma. Alfred gave him a newspaper listing for it. Bruce made a secret tunnel to the Batcave under a cistern in the basment. And they had to sell it after Jack made some bad investments in the stock market, lost Drake industries, and they had to move back to the city. Tim was at Brentwood during this and had to go to public school and wasn't rich anymore, just upper middle class. (Also he didn't inherit Drake Manor as his father didn't own it when he died)

--

Stephanie Brown is from Crime Alley

Stephanie Brown was solidly middle class when she was introduced. Although a lot of her problems (pill popping mother, villan father, teen pregnancy) were viewed as "poor people problems" she was not. She had a regular house in the suburbs and had her own motorcycle and equipment (although she could have stolen it from her villan father). (I think she was supposed to be relatable in that these problems can happen to anyone but fannon has taken that away from her and said that those are poor people problems so she must be poor)

And another submission...

The misconception is that Stephanie Brown (Spoiler, later the 4th main continuity Robin, later Batgirl) is from Crime Alley, also known as Park Row, or sometimes other impoverished areas of Gotham City such as The Narrows. In the Post-Crisis Pre-Flashpoint era of comics, Stephanie is canonically from a mainland suburb of Gotham, not the island city itself. In her introductory arc, the Bats specifically track her down to the "Manchester suburb" which is seen as having a low skyline, unlike the tall buildings of Gotham City. In a later comics, Stephanie describes herself as Spoiler as the "defender of the suburbs", pointing out that Batman and Robin focus on the city. Why it's important to know: fans who place her childhood in Park Row or the Narrows are often drawing direct parallels between her and Jason Todd or Duke Thomas, and a contrast to non-urban-childhood characters, completely inaccurately, ignoring her actual canon experiences. Suburbs of Gotham still deal with similar issues, but they aren't interchangeable with the urban center itself. Characters can have parallels without having grown up in the exact same place as each other; the misconception flattens and simplifies all of them. Additionally, this era of comics had Stephanie dealing with stigmatized issues such as a criminal father, a drug addicted mother, a teen pregnancy, and childhood abuse. The canon made it clear these are problems kids in the suburbs may experience. The misconception that Stephanie is from Crime Alley reinforces the stereotype that crime, drug addiction, and teen pregnancy are only urban issues. Reinforces the classist myth that suburbs are "nicer" and "safer" than the city.

[incorrectfabfifteen]

Hello, welcome to Incorrect Fab Fifteen, a blog about all things Silver Age Teen Titans! I've come up with the term Fab Fifteen to broadly refer to all of the members (which I'll explain below) as well as a natural expansion of the Fab Five (plus, it's better than just calling them the OG Teen Titans or the 70s Team).

For DC newcomers, don't be afraid of some of the comic terminology present, they'll make sense with more exposure.

Introducing: The Fab Fifteen!

Dick Grayson

Full name: Richard John "Dick" Grayson

Alter Ego: Robin I, Nightwing, Batman III, Red X

Birthday: March 20th

Love interests: Bette Kane (Pre-Crisis), Princess Koriand'r, Barbara Gordon, Helena Bertinelli (DCYou), Bea Bennett [There's probably more, feel free to send an ask so I can fix this]

Reading recs: The Judas Contract, The Cheshire Contract [collected as Nightwing: Old Friends, New Enemies], Nightwing Vol 1 by Chuck Dixon, Batman & Robin, The Black Mirror, New 52 Nightwing by Kyle Higgens

Wally West

Full name: Wallace Rudolph "Wally" West

Alter Ego: Kid Flash I, The Flash III

Birthday: January 16

Love interests: Donna Troy (Pre-NTT), Rachel Roth (🤨?), Frances Kane, Linda Park, Jesse Chambers

Reading recs: Born To Run, Savage Velocity, The Flash by William Messner-Loebs and Greg LaRoque, The Flash by Mark Waid, Flash Forward, The Flash by Jeremy Adams (especially The Return of Wally West and One-Minute War)

Donna Troy

Full name: Donna Hinckley Stacy Troy

Alter ego: Wonder Girl, Troia (Who Is Wonder Girl? until Total Chaos; JLA/Titans until Infinite Crisis; No Justice onwards), Darkstar (Zero Hour until Meltdown), Wonder Woman IV (Who Is Wonder Woman?)

Birthday: April 26

Love interests (oh boy): Dick Grayson (FORMERLY), Wally West (only during the Silver Age + some weird thing during DC Rebirth), Garth (Titans 2018 + Titans United), Roy Harper, Kyle Rayner

Reading recs: Who Is Wonder Girl? [Collected in The New Teen Titans Who is Donna Troy?], Wonder Woman By John Byrne Vol. 3, The Return of Donna Troy, Wonder Woman: Who is Wonder Woman?, Titans: The Spark and Into The Bleed

Garth

Full name: Prince Garth of Shayeris

Alter ego: Aqualad (also legal name until Crisis), Tempest

Birthday: March 6

Love interests: Donna Troy, Tula Marinus, Dolphin, Lilith Clay (temporary)

Reading recs: World's Finest: Teen Titans, Death of a Prince, Tempest by Phil Jimenez, Aquaman by Peter David, JLA: The Obsidian Age, Aquaman: Underworld

Roy Harper

Full name: Roy William Harper Jr.

Alter ego: Speedy, Arsenal, Red Arrow

Birthday: November 1

Love interests: Donna Troy, Jade Nguyen, Kendra Saunders

Reading recs: Snowbirds Don't Fly, The Cheshire Contract [Collected as Nightwing: Old Friends, New Enemies], Arsenal by Devin Grayson, Outsiders 2003, Justice League of America 2007, Infinite Frontier, Green Arrow 2023

Lilith Clay

Full name: Lilith Jupiter-Clay

Alter ego: Omen

Birthday: Not stated but her debut was November 18

Love interests: Gnarrk, Donald Hall, Garth, Bette Kane

Reading recs: The Terror of Trigon, Teen Titans by Dan Jurgens, Teen Titans: Life and Death, Titans Hunt (2015), Titans Rebirth

Mal Duncan

Full name: Malcolm Arnold "Mal" Duncan

Alter ego: Guardian (Pre-Crisis), Hornblower, Herald (Post-Crisis), Vox (Infinite Crisis until Flashpoint)

Birthday: Not stated

Love interests: Karen Beecher

Reading recs: Silver Age Teen Titans, Titans Hunt, Titans Rebirth, The Other History of the DC Universe #2

Fun fact: Mal Duncan was featured in the first interracial kiss in comics history with a goodbye kiss between him and Lilith!

Karen Beecher

Full name: Karen Beecher-Duncan

Alter ego: Bumblebee

Birthday: Not stated

Love interests: Mal Duncan

Reading recs: Silver Age Teen Titans, Titans Hunt, Titans Rebirth, The Other History of the DC Universe #2, Doom Patrol by Keith Giffen

Don Hall

Full name: Donald Hall

Alter ego: Dove

Birthday: Not stated

Love interests: Lilith Clay

Reading recs: The Hawk & The Dove, Silver Age Teen Titans, Crisis on Infinite Earths

Hank Hall

Full name: Henry "Hank" Hall

Alter ego: Hawk, Monarch (Armageddon 2001), Extant (Zero Hour until JSA)

Birthday: Not stated

Love interests: Dawn Granger, Ren Takamori

Reading recs: The Hawk and The Dove, Hawk and Dove: Ghosts & Demons, Hawk and Dove (1989), Birds of Prey (2010)

Dawn Granger

Full name: Dawn Marie Granger

Alter ego: Dove

Birthday: Not stated

Love interests: Hank Hall, Sal Arsala

Reading recs: Hawk and Dove: Ghosts & Demons, Hawk and Dove (1989), Birds of Prey (2010)

Duela Dent

Full name: Duela Dent

Alter ego: Joker's/Riddler's/Penguin's Daughter, Card Queen, Harlequin

Birthday: Not stated

Love interests: Earth-1 Dick Grayson, Earth-3 Dick Grayson

Reading recs: Silver Age Teen Titans, Teen Titans: Titans East

Bette Kane

Full name: Mary Elizabeth "Bette" Kane

Alter ego: Batgirl (Pre-Crisis), Flamebird (Post-Crisis, current mantle), Hawkfire (N52 Batwoman only)

Birthday: Not stated

Love interests: Dick Grayson (Pre-Crisis)

Reading recs: Teen Titans Vol 1 #50-53, Hawk and Dove Vol 3 Annual 1, Beast Boy (2000), DC's Legion of Bloom

Charley Parker

Full name: Charles Edmund "Charley" Parker (human name); Ch'al Andar (Thanagarian name)

Alter ego: Golden Eagle, Hawkman IV (Rise of the Golden Eagle)

Birthday: Not stated

Love interests: Kendra Saunders (I think?)

Reading recs: Hawkman: Rise of the Golden Eagle,

Tula

Full name: Tula Marinus

Alter ego: Aquagirl

Birthday: Not stated

Love interests: Garth

Reading recs: Tempest by Phil Jimenez, New 52 Aquaman, Mera: Queen of Atlantus, Aquaman by Kelly Sue DeConnick, Aquamen

So a special note: despite Beast Boy being a part of the Titans West (as well as appearing in the above photograph), they do not count as part of the Fab Fifteen, mainly because he's already part of the New Teen Titans. Also note that this acc won't be using the New 52 version of Duela Dent (although the Gotham Knights version is fine so feel free to send in any hcs about her)

Also you maybe be asking why Gnarrk's entry is below instead of with everybody else. That's because Gnarrk was never a Titan in the first place. Sure, he appeared as part of the title and was there when the Titans West was formed but he never actually joined the team at all. Gnarrk becoming a Titan became a thing when he was introduced following the New 52.

Gnarrk

Full name: Unknown

Alter ego: Caveboy

Birthday: Not stated

Love interests: Lilith Clay

Reading recs: Titans Hunt (2015), Titans Rebirth

Uhh, yeah, so that's the Fab Fifteen! Again, don't worry about this technical jargon if you're a newcomer and you just wanna look at the other posts, we're all here to have fun.

[michaeljoncarter]

i do have to say this is a uniquely frustrating "reboot" because from what i'm understanding, it's not actually a reboot. they're just making a separate universe so they can have 2 continuities going at the same time, one with this new universe and the other with the current continuity still going uninterrupted, and i'm sorry but i literally feel like i'm about to go insane. have people not been begging them to do exactly this with the preboot universe for years???? did i imagine that?? are they not doing exactly what people have been asking them to but with a thing no one asked for instead of the thing people want??

like i get that you've sunk way too much into the post-52/rebirth universes to just delete them or whatever, but they could so easily just be like "oh we found pre-flashpoint dcu under highfather's couch" or whatever the fck and just split the universe to allow for stories from the preboot universe to be published at least occasionally? and now they're actually going through the trouble of splitting it into two continuities seemingly EXACTLY like that... but instead of the universe everyone actually wants to come back, it's another randomass new 52 elseworlds thing

i am going to explode in the kiln

[mysterycitrus]

what gave you the idea for persephone? was it spite towards those "reverse robins" things where everyone before dick is somehow still robin (understandable and very valid they rarely do anything storywise and also give the backstories to different people without considering character)? or something else

it was originally kinda the skeleton of a fic id started writing like five years ago — about new52 nightwing and pre-flashpoint nightwing swapping universes — but tbh last year i read something that was an examination of dick grayson as robin through the eyes of the other robins and it just……. threw me off so bad that persephone spawned as a result

persephone and the series as a whole is just one long character study of dick grayson and the ghost of his parents, and how he’s viewed by others. there’s like… four prequels exclusively about him as perceived by others cause i find it’s a very effective way to engage with a character. we know this character and can more or less guess his thought process, but do others?

the thing i read was pretty much just the other robins being like “we didn’t really know him cause we liked the other robins better but he was ok i guess?” and tim talking about how much he loved jason which just made me think about how the robin legacy is so muddied in both fanon and canon that i just couldn’t contain myself. that was my first foray back into comics fandom and it was jarring with how my ideas differed from what seemed to be popular. obvsly not interested in flaming a fanwork but like…. i wanted to at least post something about my understanding of the characters. that’s why i wrote wolf king too (my mistake) — there are popular fanon plot beats i just disagree with. ive never really read reverse robin stuff because i don’t think the robin mantle would work in that order so i can’t comment on it but yeah. same principle.

i do think it’s possible to write interesting speculative batman stuff while being relatively true to every character, so that’s my ultimate intention. to add interesting details to canon in a meaningful way.

so yeah. ig i was inspired by being a meanie. and because dick grayson is my very special boy ♥️

[zahri-melitor]

Why did Red Robin fail as an alias that Tim was transitioned into? Did it ‘fail’?

I don't have any special insight on this one, but I can give you a bunch of reasons that made it unpopular.

The main one however? It's heavily associated with n52 Tim, and people don't like n52 Tim.

(Heads up going in - I will be using cover dates for all of this, because working with cover dates over publication dates is simpler for me)

Tim used 'Red Robin' as a name between August 2009 and July 2018. This splits up as follows with the major titles he was appearing in:-

2 years, 3 months (August 2009 - October 2011) in Batman Reborn pre-Flashpoint as Red Robin (Red Robin vol 1):

5 years, 1 month (November 2011 - November 2016) in n52 as Red Robin (Teen Titans vol 4 & 5, Batman Eternal, Batman & Robin Eternal):

2 years (August 2016 - July 2018) in Rebirth as Red Robin (Detective Comics):

I wanted to put the photos up to help clarify the differences between each of these versions.

Yes, there's overlap between the last two, because Teen Titans vol 5 finished several months after the start of Tynion's Detective Comics run. The two characters are essentially separate - switching over to Rebirth was a messy process that took several months depending on the title

The majority of appearances of 'Red Robin' as a character are of n52 'Tim Drake', who doesn't have the same backstory, parents or history as Robin as the characters either side of him. He's the one that most long term fans of the character would rather not talk about or think about.

Tynion's Detective Comics run between 2016 to 2018 was about taking the characters therein back to their pre-Flashpoint characterisation, as much as possible. And you can tell from the costume, Tim was 'Red Robin' in name only. He was wearing a Robin costume that simply happened to have an extra R on the crest. He looked like a Robin, acted like a Robin, was doing Robinlike work for Batman, and when Young Justice 2019 started he got a costume update that dropped the extra R from the top and he's been using Robin again ever since (less the attempt at using 'Drake' as a code name in 2020).

So why did it fail? Here's a bunch of reasons:

People don't like the cowl design on Tim: even Marcus To, the artist best associated with Tim as Red Robin before Flashpoint, perpetually draws Tim with the cowl down and often with part of the costume off for commissions and artwork.

People don't like the new 52 version of Tim.

Red Robin was a costume that Tim put on back in 2009 as a punishment to himself while was was doing 'unRobinlike' things looking for Bruce, and once that circumstance was over, there wasn't that much time during Reborn to really cement it as Tim's adult persona due to the universe getting cut off and rebooted.

New 52 Tim was largely not associated with the rest of the Bats for various editorial reasons, making him an outsider that's unusual compared to the rest of his characterisation since 1989.

To show the difference for Tynion's 'Tec run and convince all the fans that new 52 Tim was gone, they decided to make a very clear visual distinction between the characters. That visual distinction essentially was making Tim into a Robin again.

If you're looking at character storyline for Tim Drake, son of Jack and Janet, the story arc effectively goes: Batman Reborn, Convergence, Detective Comics, Young Justice 2019. Which is a story of Tim transferring himself back OUT of the Red Robin costume as he healed and no longer needed it as a temporary measure, and regaining his memories and history.

I mean, why would DC want to use Red Robin for Tim? It's got the difficulty that Jason has taken over effective ownership of the colour red for identification in the family purposes. It's associated with times of grief in Tim's life (because Tim explicitly wears red for loss: for Kon and for Bruce) and with storylines they've excised from his history. It's explicitly a form of self-flagellation.

It could have been Tim's Nightwing, but it's effectively ended up Tim's Grayson period. Something that happened and is referenced, but there are good reasons not to return to.

[necrotic-nephilim]

there is not enough femslash in batcest circles. the girls deserve to be just as weird about each other as the boys are. if BruDick gets to be weird father/son/brothers/lovers/friends/rivals/soulmates then it is only fair that Babs/Cass get to be mother/daughter/sisters/lovers too. Something about that deep intrinsic but undefinable love that is born out of trauma, especially if you consider Cass not knowing what healthy love looks like in the first place. i think it's fun and deserves just as much fandom content.

besides that, you can get even more niche with rarepairs like Helena/Steph. Huntress/Spoiler: Blunt Trauma is already a fantastic comic and even though it's their only real canon interaction it has so much potential. very comparable to TimJay in how Helena tries to get Steph to understand her morals and the corruption you could play with it.

batman: huntress/spoiler: blunt trauma (1998)

that comic also highlights on how both Steph and Helena are outcasts of the Batfamily and don't have the approval of Bruce to be doing what they do in "his city". I think there's so much Potential in Helena taking Steph under her wing because Bruce won't let her in and it becomes a weird codependent toxic sapphic mess. I think the protectiveness Helena feels over Steph from the get-go is so clear and the way she wants to look out for Steph, wants to make sure Steph understands the real world? I love them. Helena should be allowed to steal Steph, actually. I think it'd be fun.

there are a lot of other possibilities too like Babs/Steph or even getting weird with Helena Bertinelli/Helena Wayne and the existential question of "is it selfcest or not." But these two specifically live in my head rent-free, especially Helena/Steph and one day I'll convince everyone else to ship it too.

[umbrellacam]

Anyway, as I'm going back and reading a period during which the Teen Titans and other heroes were highly visible and active with the public, including Batman to a certain extent, and with camera!Tim and the idea of reconciling incompatible timelines on my mind -

I feel like the camera!Tim fanon where Tim follows Batman and Robin around in person for years could be (among other things, such as wanting him to interact with/admire Jason and encounter/join the Batfam early, etc.) partially a result of the retcon that B&R are shadowy, unconfirmed urban legends, and not public figures. Even for people who haven't read this retcon in the comics themselves, the "B&R as urban legends" world-state is still very popular, well-known, and often used in fic and fandom.

So during the 1994 Zero Hour event, there were a bunch of time anomalies and various adjustments to the canon, including (re-)establishing Batman (and Robin) as a hushed, menacing ~rumor~, more phantom and myth than man, as a matter of Bat policy. No public appearances. No clear photos, no hard facts.

Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #0

Batman: Shadow of the Bat #0

We even have Dick relaying a slightly tweaked version of his origin, implying that Batman did not swoop down and publicly comfort Dick Grayson in the circus ring after his parents' murder (as was shown to have happened in Batman: Year Three and A Lonely Place of Dying back in 1989 - and which served as the initial reason Tim started admiring Batman!), and in fact Dick "...didn't believe the stories about the Batman" until months after he moved into the Manor, when Bruce told him the truth and showed him the Cave:

Robin (1993) #0

And of course the many subsequent instances afterwards of the existence of Batman, Robin, Nightwing, etc. all being kept on the down-low:

Young Justice (1998) #52-53 - Tim creating his Mr. Sarcastic guise to avoid being on-camera as Robin.

Detective Comics (Vol. 1) #727 - Bullock and Montoya being true Gothamite bros to the Bats.

And many more, etc.

All of this is obviously incompatible with the prior era and many events where Batman and Robin were very well documented as heroes, including Tim's origin in Batman: Year Three and ALPoD, as mentioned above.

As Tim related, he followed them mainly in various news media, and it was in fact on TV that he fatefully saw Robin's quadruple flip, years later:

Batman (Vol. 1) #441

By contrast, the 2016 recap of Tim's origin in A Lonely Place of Living, which restored his pre-Flashpoint backstory, does have Batman appearing at the circus again, and even taking Dick with him, but it doesn't include anything about Tim following Batman and Robin in the news, clipping articles, etc. It doesn't even mention when or how Tim saw Robin performing Dick Grayson's quadruple somersault in order to piece things together:

Detective Comics (2016) #965

But okay, if Batman and Robin were subsequently retconned into shadowy urban legends that didn't regularly appear in newspapers or on TV, how do we reconcile that with Tim's backstory as a fan who stalked followed them super closely?? His creepy cute scrapbook of newspaper clippings and Moment of Revelation from watching them on TV can't exist in the same form anymore, it's incompatible.

We can fudge an in-universe explanation covering most of the retcon, like it was a policy change that Batman instituted early in Tim's Robin tenure, and say Oracle went back and scrubbed photos, videos, records etc. from existence. We'd probably have to lean into the sliding timescale of comics and pretend all of this happened in a more digital era, though, because otherwise there are all of those pesky physical records...

We can cover the gaps by handwaving that the 'shadowy urban legends' cloak of secrecy was never foolproof, and hard evidence of B&R's existence did exist here and there, but was limited and hard to find. This jives fairly well with the actual 'urban legend' era post-Zero Hour; they couldn't avoid being witnessed or interacting with people all the time. Kid Tim would just have to do more involved digging than snipping articles out of the daily paper. Maybe the hidden security camera footage of Robin's flip that was shown on the evening news was much more shadowy and ambiguous than in canon, and it's because of Tim's special interest that he was even able to recognize B&R, and what was going on? I like this one, personally.

But alternatively. We do know that he followed Batman in person and took pictures at least in Batman #440. We're pretty sure that he had to have followed Dick/the Titans around in New York before, given that he'd memorized the Titans' schedules and knew the locations of both Kory's and Dick's apartments (also Batman #440; Tim, pls...).

It seems like extending these instances into a more regular pattern of Tim following the Bats around, and gathering photo evidence for his scrapbook by taking pictures himself, and witnessing Robin!Dick's flip in person, is one possible way to reconcile the inconsistency. And one even more likely to be used by people with only more general fandom knowledge, who are used to the 'urban legend' world-state but want to have Tim stalking the Bats at length anyway. (Which, along with New 52 Tim, is part of how we get baby super-hacker and electronic stalker extraordinaire Tim fanon, as well, I'm sure.)

[kiragecko]

I'm going through the DCU and Batman tags¹ on AO3. I wanted to understand a bit better what's actually being included when I search using various filters and tags.

Early thoughts:

1. It would be nice if the various continuities were subtags, rather than synonyms of 'DCU (Comics)'. People carefully tagging things 'DCU (Rebirth)' and 'Pre-Flashpoint' would probably LIKE it if that actually did anything. Also, sometimes I'd like to be able to exclude the nu52, but since it's not a canonical tag, I'd probably have to include all 11 different spellings separately, as well as 'DCU Prime Earth (Comics)' and all the other variations.

2. Earth 3/The Crime Syndicate/the Antimatter Universe NEEDS a tag! There are so many different spellings and variations, and it's something that people have strong enough opinions about that they should be able to include/exclude. (Also, some of the tags are synned to 'DCU' and some to 'DCU (Comics)' so some will be excluded from certain searches. (I haven't checked the Batman tags yet, and I'm scared.)

3. DC vs. Vampires seems to be in a similar boat. (9 different spellings across the two tags.)

4. AO3 is really impressive, isn't it? The tag system is MOSTLY working, and it does NOT have an easy job!

-

¹ not the fic in the tags - the pages for the tags with all their synonyms and subtags

[mamawasatesttube]

Technically I could google it, but what’s the deal with the new 52, and flashpoint, and rebirth etc… I think you’ve mentioned before that Kon has several different origins and stuff… wild.

so technically kon has one main origin that's just been altered by a couple of retcons, and then there's just a whole entire Other Fucking Guy dc made up and also named kon-el because they hate happiness. i'll get to that in a second sdfhdkjs

SO. "new 52", "precrisis", "postcrisis", and "rebirth" all refer to different periods of dc continuity! precrisis is the oldest and refers to comics written before crisis on infinite earths (1985). when anyone refers to "the crisis" you can generally assume they mean coie, as it's the Most Significant one. coie's meta purpose was to consolidate all of the timelines and not-really-in-continuity stories into a more cohesive overall dc universe.

thus we ended in the postcrisis universe, also known as new earth (after all the fuckery ended and some timelines kinda reset etc etc). a lot of titles like superman, wonder woman, etc., got relaunched in 1987 after coie ended. this is frankly, in my and also many other people's opinions, dc's best era (1987 - 2011); this is where we got storylines like the death and return of superman, saw characters like the cast of young justice '98 introduced, and followed a lot of different characters as they grew and developed, such as tim drake moving from 200+ issues of robin towards a new mantle (red robin) towards the end of the era.

unfortunately, for some reason, this guy working at dc named dan didio who was just like absolute god at coming up with terrible ideas, was like. hey so the timeline's getting cluttered and complicated again. i know what we need to do. another entire fucking universe reset! and this time we'll just absolutely bungle it. i'm talking edgier characterizations. throwing out established character relationships and dynamics. edgier everything actually. this will be fucking awesome.

spoiler alert it was not fucking awesome. this was the new 52 and it was massively unpopular. it was kicked off by an event called flashpoint (this is why sometimes you will see people referring to pre-n52 as pre-flashpoint). sales were pretty Not Stellar. it was a fucking mess with absolutely no preplanning or anything. for more on what a shitshow n52 was, here's an article.

and so new 52 kon specifically? yeah. not a clone of superman. a clone of some other guy (specifically, an alternate universe son of superman and lois lane named jon lane kent). this is where the "kon means abomination" thing came from (the author is scott lobdell and i throw tomatoes at him in my mind on the daily, for this and many many other crimes). it does not apply to main continuity kon because it got retconned out of existence and also literally did not happen to him because n52 kon is an Entirely Different Fucking Guy.

so all of five years after n52 happened, dc was like. okay everyone hates this and wants the postcrisis continuity back. uhhhh... okay! and so in 2016 they launched rebirth, also known as prime earth, in a story that more or less just undid flashpoint except not exactly. this restored a lot of the general broad strokes of postcrisis continuity (except where it didn't, and boy did a lot of things fall through those cracks, such as... the entire kon-el. he was not in continuity at all until young justice (2019). he just simply didn't exist anymore until this guy bendis was like well wait a minute we should bring that guy back! and proceeded to do it in the stupidest way possible... but i digress.)

thus kon really only has one origin: reign of the supermen. there have been some retcons that change the details of that origin (due to the byrne era "last son of krypton" mandate, the relaxation of that mandate, and then geoff johns being fucking stupid, in that order), but overall his origin has not changed. it's just that there is also some other guy out there named kon-el (who is.. currently not in continuity? i think? i don't really know. i haven't read any n52 superboy/titans stuff bc i was like well that's not my kon so i don't care slkdjf but i'll probably get there one day or another...)