#op has osdd

[darknanigans]

whiteboard doodles

had revenge on the music bot

gabriel alter.. he freaks me out

bikini warning!!!!!!! guaranteed SEXYness so hot nosebleed beautifyl

originally it was gabe with t-scars but my friend kept drawing nipples on him so the solution was a bikini top

[gremmything]

THIS!!! ABSOLUTELY THIS!!!!!

Stop freely giving out personal information. No one is entitled to these things and you are putting yourself in danger by sharing them.

And I am ESPECIALLY sick of seeing so many littles running free online, both on public social media and in semi-public areas such as discord servers. That shit is not safe.

edit: this is primarily addressing minor systems!! any system can be put in danger by doing this, but minors are especially at risk.

this point has probably been made 700 times already but can we please stop normalizing putting every crumb of alter information into your intros/descriptions. i'm really tired of seeing people list their trauma holders & let their littles roam free online & minors listing their sexual protectors publicly, PLEASE stop putting targets on you. yeah your intro or pk description might look pretty but someone is going to take advantage of that information eventually and/or publicly blast you.

^ this also applies to triggers btw, even positive ones. you may think you're preventing something, but if you tell the internet not to do something then they're just gonna do it more, especially if your triggers are more obscure/"weird".

i say this as someone who used to do all of this too, i thought it was proving a point and showing the fakeclaimers that i really AM traumatized!! yeah no it doesn't work like that. don't try to prove yourself to people who will never listen to you, protect yourself please.

[pluralpolls]

what is your opinion on non-traditional systems represented in fiction? like for instance if someone "has" DID/OSDD/etc but because they're like multiple souls in one body. like a fantasy reason for being plural but still shares all the experiences and symptoms

Its good

Neutral

Don't like it

Nuance/vanilla extract/op you forgot

[tempesttz]

i feel like causing problems today: correcting actual endogenic misinformation on the anti endo blog about "correcting misinformation"

WARNING: VERY LONG POST ABOUT SYSCOURSE BELOW THE CUT! you have been warned. stay safe! :3c

[/image id: screenshot of tumblr blog @antimisinfo, the blog's profile picture, and the blog's header stating "correcting misinformation." end id.] (before we get into this, some of these images will be very bright! i will try to provide accurate image ids to every screenshot i post. stay safe!) okay so see this account right? op has no clue what they're talking about. addressing pronouns right now, i was going to refer to them by their preferred collective pronouns but i can't find them? i checked their carrd and their alters all had different pronouns and their about me just says this

[/image id: text stating, "horned haters is a subsystem filled with alters who hate endos / pro-endos. our whole system does but we are more passionate about it and plan to try make as many safe spaces for anti-endos as we possibly can!" end id.] so at least i know they prefer alters. cool [happy] so far okay whatever they REALLY hate endogenic systems thats cool thats whatever nothing new there but

[/image id: five images of different flags, likely did/osdd related, anti endo related, or something similar. text underneath flags states "system hot takes," "anti endo support group," "anti endo system terms," "agre and littles safespace," and "fictive stuff." end id.] jegus dude you weren't joking about being passionate about hating. this is like, grade a hater here. but i digress this probably isn't the post to be screwing around on i'll keep the screwing to a minimum i promise. that being said i don't promise to be nice, i do not owe anyone kindness, especially when they are not kind to me. i will try to be polite. so this is already splendid right but you would think with this many accounts dedicated to hating endogenic systems (they also own anti endo vents, i think?) they would at least know what they're talking about, right? right?????

[/image id: text reading "so what are endos? endos or endogenics are people who claim to have did/osdd without trauma or claim to have alters/be a system without having did/osdd." end id.] source: endos / endogenics and why they aren't valid, may 8 2024 for the sake of convenience, i'm going to be referring to did/osdd as osddid from now on. okay so first of all, anyone who claims to be endogenic while having osddid is almost definitely also traumagenic and has reasons rooted in trauma, those two things aren't mutually exclusive. endogenic is a broad, personal label. an endogenic system with did could be one with a lot of created alters or headmates. or just two created alters, headmates, etc. who knows! it's a very personal label after all. that being said, to have osddid, you have to have some form of trauma in almost every case, because trauma is what causes the dissociation, amnesia and other symptoms of osddid. anyone who's arguing to the contrary is wrong. you cannot have osddid without trauma? "so tempy, endogenic systems aren't real! they don't have osddid!" wrong. you can be a system without having osddid. for just one example, sourced from the national library of medicine, pubmed central, "multiplicity can be placed along a continuum between identity disturbance and dissociative identity disorder (did), although most systems function relatively well in everyday life. Further research is needed to explore this phenomenon, especially in terms of the extent to which multiplicity can be regarded as a healthy way of coping." (2017) taking some bookmarks from your sixth grade english class (which i can only hope you have passed by now, if you are on this website,) we are going to use some inferences. if multiplicity isn't dissociative identity disorder, but it is a state of being multiple and a system, what do you have? a system without osddid. "but tempy, that doesn't mention osdd!" that's because osdd wasn't a medical term before the dsm-5. not to mention, it stresses that "...most systems function relatively well in everyday life..." and that "...multiplicity can be regarded as a healthy way of coping." osdd is a disorder and an osdd system's plurality is disordered. non-disordered plurality is a thing that exists, and almost all non-traumagenic plurals are non-disordered! so we're already off to a terrible start. op isn't creating a distinction between plurality and osddid, likely because they believe that osddid is the only way to be plural. this not only was disproved above by a literal scientific article on a .gov website, but also the icd-11.

[/image id: text stating "boundary with normality (threshold):" which then moves a line down to a bullet point stating "the presence of two or more distinct personality states does not always indicate the presence of a mental disorder. in certain circumstances (e.g., as experienced by 'mediums' or other culturally accepted spiritual practitioners) the presence of multiple personality states is not experienced as aversive and is not associated with impairment in functioning. a diagnosis of dissociative identity disorder should not be assigned in these cases." end id.] so someone can experience multiple personality states without it being part of a mental disorder. and it's not dissociative identity disorder, and it can't be otherwise specified dissociative disorder, so... i wonder what it could be? well, many things! all under the wonderful way-too-vague umbrella that is endogenic plurality. oh, you need more proof? how about we look to a book written by eric yarbrough, a psychiatrist who specializes in lgbtq issues:

[/image id: text reading "the phenomenon of plurality is unknown to most mental health clinicians. most professionals know this condition as dissociative identity disorder (american psychiatric association 2013), although plurality and dissociative identity disorder are not exactly the same. being plural, or having two or more people existing in one body or space, is just one part of the diagnosis of dissociative identity disorder. many people who are plural do not experience distress from the existence of others within themselves." end id.] what was that, psychiatrist eric yarbrough in your book transgender mental health which was published by the american psychiatric association?

[/image id: text reading "plurality is a more patient-centered approach to what has historically been referred to as dissociative identities. this is not the same as the dsm-5 diagnosis of dissociative identity disorder (american psychiatric association 2013). plurality makes up just one part of the larger diagnosis and does not necessarily cause distress. although many people who are plural have a history of trauma, there are just as many who do not. a plural system is a collection of all the alters present. with some people these alters might come and go, whereas with others they are static and waiting to be discovered." end id.] this is not the same as the dsm-5 diagnosis of dissociative identity disorder, huh? it's just one part of a larger diagnosis and doesn't necessarily cause distress, huh? still not convinced? rapid fire! zarah eve, sarah parry: "not all multiplicity is based in trauma" (2021) mick cooper: "neuropsychological research has demonstrated the inherently divisible nature of the brain and consciousness" (unsure, likely pre-2013) zarah eve, kim hayes, sarah perry: "multiplicity experiences are phenomenologically distinct from clinical dissociative experiences" (2023)

kymbra clayton: "there may be in the general population a large number of people with [multiplicity] who are high-functioning, relatively free of overt psychopathology, and no more in need of treatment than most of their peers. they may not have abuse histories and may have evolved a creative and adaptive multiplicity." (possibly 2005)

the entire endogenic and non-traumagenic resources google doc, created by a diagnosed traumagenic system can we at least establish there's been a recorded medical existence of healthy, non-disordered multiplicity in psychiatric fields and that this isn't something that someone just made up on tumblr one day? okay, cool, thanks. now i wonder if there's a word for that. oh wait. it's called non-disordered plurality and tends to be much more common in non-traumagenic systems. by now you've probably forgotten the actual reason this post exists, so back to antimisinfo!

[/image id: text reading "why is this bad? this is misinformation because as far as science knows did/osdd is a trauma based disorder (specifically caused by trauma in early childhood, which is speculated to be 1-9 / 1-12 years old) and your brain would not split/create alters without reason. you cannot have alters without having a disorder, this is common sense as it's not normal to have alters. to add onto this endos also take over our communities and teal our terms. (we'll make a post with further information on that in the future.)" end id.] okay so first off non-disordered systems exist, let's stop talking about osddid as if it's the only way plurals can exist. second off, you can be multiple without having a disorder, it's literally highlighted in the icd-11 that non-disordered multiplicity exists. see above for disproving that. this is not common sense, because as seen above people can experience multiplicity without it being disordered, therefore meaning it is "normal," though not realistically normal as all plurals are a minority. normal =/= bad/disordered. cool? cool now, onto "endos take over our communities and steal our terms." i have no clue what terms op is talking about (tried to find their elaboration on those terms but it seems they haven't posted it), nor have i ever gotten an actual comprehensive list of terms they think we're stealing, but here we go: the terms traumagenic and endogenic were created by an endogenic system

[/image id: text reads "an important part of the development of these terms involves our journey towards identifying as plural. we have used a lot of terms for ourselves over the last thirty years; since 2014, we have identified as endogenic, but have known we were plural since at least 1990. the road" text cuts off. end id.] the term plural can be traced back to 2003 and even in its oldest records recognize the existence of non-traumagenic plurality. it has always been an inclusive term

[/image id: header reads "heart's home." text next to it reads "join date: january 02, 2003." text underneath reads, "this is my site for people that have mpd did, {;} also i agree that not all is cause by trauma. {;} i was on the ring from ring world and did not know this was moved." end id.] introject is a psychiatry-focused word, meaning that it could be claimed to be osddid exclusive, however multiple communities have used them in tandem for years. it can be traced back to this glossary which was written before the dsm-5, or pre-2013.

[/image id: text reads "introject - introjection occurs when a person (singlet or plural) internalizes another person (real or fictional) into his or her mental space. in classical psychology, the introject is usually a parent, whose advice for good or ill becomes integrated into the person's moral system. more broadly, many people experience introjects as a kind of muse, inspiring them to creativity or self-improvement (a psychologist would call this an "internalized imago"). (psychiatric)". new line. new line text reads, ""introject" is seen as derogatory by some, because it is a psychiatric word and seems to imply that such people of necessity are unreal. They prefer terms like walk-in, soulbond, or fictive. having an introject does not necessarily mean you're multiple. it is an experience common to singlets and plurals. some multiple systems report adopting people from books, films, or real life, making them part of the group and allowing them to take the front if they desire." so, having introjects hasn't even always been seen as a fully plural experience! singlets used to be considered to be able to have introjects too! isn't that cool? not to mention, they also have a definition for fictive in there, recognized as a wider plural term! cool, cross that off the list... oh? what's this?

[/image id: text reads "system - a group of persons in one body. also, the operating system by which a group governs itself. multiples have many different names for this: group, collective, clan, household (or house), family, etc. (may have originated with a few multiples writing for the amateur press; we first read it in an early mpd book.)" end id.] so non-disordered plurals have used the term system since ever too... not to mention, hey, look at this term!

[/image id: text reads "empowerment is for all multiples. It is not only for natural (non-trauma) multiples; you can be empowered and be a multiple who was born as one person and split due to child abuse. In fact, if that's your situation, empowerment is a wonderful thing for you, and is something your therapist (if any) ought to be encouraging." end id.] wow... non-trauma multiples. look at that. is that enough terms? if you want me to look up more, feel free to suggest anything the endogenic community is "stealing" that haven't been used synonymously and consistently in both traumagenic and endogenic spaces since before traumagenic and endogenic were terms. okay back to misinformation.

[/image id: text is a link that reads "there is also a carrd that explains why endos are bad and debunks a few myths if anyone is interested in it! if not continue reading." end id.] i didn't need to click on this to know it was the why endos are bad carrd. this is the most touted anti endo carrd in existence. i'm so sick of seeing it i'm not even addressing it today. it's wrong and blames endogenic systems for systemic issues like "making actual systems be less believed." not a verbatim quote, but you can go read it for yourself and then scroll up and read everything i just said again.

i've never actually seen another anti-endo carrd. which is saying something, because there's a lot of endogenic carrds, some better than others. carrds in general aren't reputable in most situations, unless they cite other sources, which the why endos are bad carrd doesn't. it cites a google doc about cultural appropriation and the theory of structural dissociation, which is about osddid, not non traumagenic plurality. it also implies that anyone identifying as endogenic has been lied to, is traumagenic and in denial, is a singlet who's experiencing a factitious disorder or other disorder misleading them, or are a singlet faking because they think it's "fun." no comment, i'll talk about it in length another day.

[/image id: text reads, "why can't you have did/osdd or alters without trauma? as far as science knows did/osdd is a trauma disorder and in order to have alters in the first place you require dissociation, which is also a trauma (or stress) response. here are tons of medically reviewed sources that say this:" image ends. end id.] once again, not osdddid. also, "as far as science knows..." see above. science knows about non-disordered plurality. op goes on to list a bunch of articles about dissociative identity disorder, that talk about dissociative identity disorder. they are wonderful articles about dissociative identity disorder and prove that individuals with dissociative identity disorder (and by extension otherwise specified dissociative disorder) experience that disorder due to trauma. that being said... non-disordered multiplicity is a thing, and endogenic systems still don't have osddid. seeing a pattern?

[/image id: text reads, "what about religious beliefs / tulpamancy? first people are not required to believe or participate in your religious beliefs (and religious beliefs are not exempt from criticism) and second tulpamancy is a closed buddhist practice that has nothing to do with being a system and should not be compared to being a system nor should it be included / involved in system communities. Note that the dsm-v also says that in order to have did; "the disturbance is not a normal part of a broadly accepted cultural or religious practice." <- this does not mean it's possible to have alters due to a religious thing, if anything it says they cannot be counted as alters / as a system." end id.] okay so i corrected this in the image id, but op actually wrote "tuplamancy" twice. lol first off, tulpamancy isn't a closed buddhist practice. a tulpa is a theosophical term that was originally inspired by the tibetan buddhist nirmāṇakāya, translated as in tibetan as sprul-pa. "the western understanding of tulpas was developed by twentieth-century european mystical explorers, who interpreted the idea independently of buddhahood," according to wikipedia, sourced from tracking the tulpa (2015). a google search could tell you this. did you research any of the communities you are attempting to debunk past listening to what people who agree with you say? if you've decided in the past three months that google is your friend, i would google "echo chamber." second off, people absolutely are not required to believe or participate in your religious beliefs, and religious beliefs are subject to criticism. however, they should also be respected. this post, along with most other things you have had to say, have not respected spiritual plurals. not to mention, not all non-traumagenic plurals are spiritual. not to mention, not all tulpamancers are spiritual, in fact, most aren't. "modern practitioners, who call themselves "tulpamancers", use the term to refer to a type of willed imaginary friend which practitioners consider to be sentient and relatively independent. modern practitioners predominantly consider tulpas to be a psychological rather than a paranormal concept. the idea became an important belief in theosophy." see: wikipedia again. i mean, if you want me to go find scientific articles about this i can but wikipedia has plenty. go check the sources on wikipedia. this should have been the first thing you did if you wanted to "combat misinformation," by doing actual research before posting. op then starts talking about did. see: not all plurals are disordered. op also takes the time to shit on spiritual multiplicity again, which i will rightly ignore, refer to two paragraphs ago. it's midnight and i would like to finish writing by 1am.

[/image id: text reads, "to add on, no you cannot pray to be a system or transition into being a system. if you were to pray and one day magically become a system you are either in denial or you've convinced yourself you're something you're not. believing you can be a system without trauma or that you can become a system by praying is like believing you can get autism from vaccines or drinking too much dairy milk, that's just not how it works." end id.] this is a half-truth! you cannot pray to become a system unless you count spiritual possession (and frankly that responsibility lies on the individual in question), and you cannot pray to have osddid as that's a dissociative disorder that stems from childhood. you technically can transition to being plural (created systems are a thing, intentional and unintentional creation of headmates has been recorded dutifully since at least the early 1900s (see: tracking the tulpa, 2015). for the sake of it, here's a sciencedirect article about authors who experience different forms of hearing their characters in their head, who's recounts all sound very similar to non-disordered plurality. "believing you can be a system without trauma or that you can become a system by praying is like believing you can get autism from vaccines or drinking too much dairy milk, that's just not how it works." maybe if all plurality is disordered. it isn't. see above when i showed multiple examples of non-disordered multiplicity. believing that all plurality is disordered is like insisting that god created everything on earth after being presented with the theory of evolution. the analogy goes both ways.

[/image id: text reads, "what about mixed origin systems? Mixed origin systems are not a thing. did/osdd forms purely from trauma, you can't form from a mix of trauma and not trauma, that's not how it works. if you identify as mixed origin you are likely in denial and really need to come to terms with the fact that you are either traumatized or you're not a system at all." ] okay so first of all people can be traumatized past the age of twelve. ooh burn i know crazy. not to mention, plurality in general is known to be experienced by neurodivergent individuals, who as a minority are more likely to experience some form of trauma. this isn't a controversial statement, right? i don't have to prove this, right? cool great thanks. oh hey i just found a really flat ginger ale this will now fuel the rest of this post. there's this crazy concept, some people can be traumatized without it causing them to be disordered. or, a person with osddid could have created headmates, therefore making some of their system of non-traumagenic origin. personally, i was a system before i was traumatized. this caused my plurality to have some very trauma-based aspects, trauma holders and trauma-focused roles. that being said, my plurality (mostly lol) isn't disordered and my first recorded headmate was a created/spontaneous headmate at the age of ~nine.~ isn't that cool? anyways i've been medically recognized as plural so you can't fakeclaim me [silly] i dont have osddid. don't fit the diagnostic criteria. but i've been experiencing headmates since 9 and have recognized my plurality since 12. i'm 18. most of my headmates can be sourced to when i was 13-15, as that's when i experienced the most trauma (i'm better now stay safe though yall). that's decidedly after the gracious "1-12" estimate you gave, op. not to mention, we created headmates intentionally at the age of 12. so what's up with that op? what am i? okay i'm done being anectodal, i just took the opportunity to parry a personal opinion with a personal anecdote just to further drive the nail in that people like this exist and are living breathing sentient individuals with lives outside the screen and many of us have been plural since ever. i sourced non-traumagenic multiplicity to before the dsm-5 just in this post alone, not to mention tulpamancy (many tulpamancers don't consider themselves plural/multiple or part of the community).

[/image id: text reads, "what about other kinds of origins? Other origins like "willowgenic" and all that bullshit? Yeah no, same thing as endos, not possible. look above for all the proof you need, did/osdd is only caused by trauma. traumagenic is the only valid origin." end id.] i dunno if i told you this but did/osdd isn't the only form of plurality because not all plurality is disordered. also, spelling every origin you don't agree with incorrectly in a post that's supposed to be informational doesn't lend to your credibility. it's spelled willogenic. you're welcome. also, the word "traumagenic" was created by an endogenic system (see above, during "endos are stealing our terms," first link). you're appropriating our terms, buddy. [silly]

[/image id: text reads, "but I gave myself did! / but I created my own alters! no you didn't. that isn't possible, you cannot turn yourself into a did/osdd system and creating alters is a coping mechanism, not something you do for fun, sources on this;" text ends. end id.] half truth! you can't give yourself osddid because it's a dissociative disorder that forms due to childhood trauma. you can, however, create alters/headmates. see above when i talked about tulpamancy. op goes on to link more resources about dissociative identity disorder that don't mention other forms of plurality. not all plurals are disordered, let's move on.

[/image id: text reads, "isn't being a system like the same as being trans or being lgbtq? no, many endos compared the two but they are completely different. Being lgbtq is an identity, it's something you are born as. being a system is a debilitating disorder caused by severe trauma, it is counted as a disability which is;" text ends. end id.] first off i gotta say it again, not all plurality is disordered. op goes on to explain why did is a disability, which is true. that's just true. but again. not all plurality is disordered. second off, half truth! being a system is not the same as being lgbtq! that being said, a lot of systems are part of the lgbtq community, both due to its known effects on gender and sexuality and because a lot of them are neurodivergent. speaking on the internet plural community here, anyways. a lot of anti endos are referred to as "sysmeds" as a reference to "transmeds," people who believe that all people who are transgender must have a disorder in the form of gender dysphoria. sysmeds are people who believe that all people who are systems must have a disorder in the form of osddid.... same thing different font debunked not all systems are disordered. anyways.

[/image id: text reads, "but the dsm-v says that trauma isn't required! no, the dsm-v actually says csa isn't required, there are other forms of trauma that don't involve csa or child abuse. To act as if it saying that the trauma isn't always ca or child abuse means that it doesn't require trauma at all is extremely invalidating to those who are traumatized in ways that don't involve child abuse or csa." end id.] both of you are wrong jesus christ. okay so first of all the dsm-v heavily implies that trauma is basically required in order to have osddid.

[/image id: text reading "dissociative identity disorder is associated with overwhelming experiences, traumatic events, and/or abuse occurring in childhood. the full disorder may manifest at al-" text cuts off. end id.]

[/image id: text reads, "the dissociative disorders are frequently found in the aftermath of trauma, and many of the symptoms, including embarrassment and confusion about the symptoms or a desire to hide them, are influenced by the proximity to trauma. in dsm-5, the dissociative disorders are placed next to, but are not part of, the trauma- and stressor-related disorders, reflecting the close relationship between these diagnostic classes. both acute stress disorder" text cuts off. end id.] second of all the part of the dsm-5 that goes over dissociative identity disorder doesn't mention sexual violence once. the best i can assume this claim came from is an old belief that most dissociative identity disorder trauma if not all is inherently sexual.

[/image id: text reads, "promoted by charismatic individuals such as cornelia wilbur -- that multiplicity was almost always caused by severe, repeated child abuse, usually sexual, and was an extreme form of dissociation." end id.] so... where did you get this info, op? you didn't give us a source, after all. and again.... not all plurality is disordered. so this is a pointless argument to make. shit, i'm out of ginger ale. and it's 1am. it's okay i'm basically done right? uh, right?

[/image id: text reads, "but this source claims endos exist / did doesn't require trauma! most of those sources are extremely old and / or made by endos (or pro endos) themselves. (we'll make a more in-depth post on this topic some other time, but for now this is all we have to say on it)" end id.] first off i dated every source i cited, most are post-2013 and the newest is from last september (sep 2023). the oldest is ~2003. you're welcome. second, if you denounce every source given matter how reputable because it's "written by pro endos," you'll only end up listening to people in your own community. hey, remember when i asked you to google "echo chamber?" also, i'm waiting for that post, op. also also, for the sake of it, not all plurality is disordered, so why are we mentioning did again? oh yeah, because you don't believe in non-disordered plurality. is that because all the sources proving their existence are pro endo? hey, fun challenge, if you're over the age of 21 and find yourself wishing to, take a shot every time i reiterate not all plurality is disordered. [joking]

[/image id: text reads, "but we don't know everything about the human brain! you're right, we don't. the brain is mysterious, but we do know enough to know that it doesn't do these kinds of things for no reason. we know the brain reacts to trauma and we know what the difference between a normal brain and a disordered brain is. just because we don't know everything doesn't give people an excuse to jump to conclusions and spread misinformation. it is better to stick to what science currently knows which is the theory of structural dissociation, which is the current theory about how did/osdd forms, and so far no one has been able to disprove it. and before someone says it, no it is not only a theory, it is a scientific theory which is;" end id.] hey i have this fun concept for you not all plurality is disordered. also, just to throw it out there, otto van der hart, the guy who created the theory of structural dissociation referencing the haunted self and doing so along with ellert neijenhuis, suzette boon and kathy steele, had his license revoked years ago for abusing his plural patients. not to mention they promote only referring to the "client" and not the "parts," and only referring to alters as "parts of the client." i recommend reading this article on power to the plurals, and if you feel like some extra reading, you can also check out this old article about how psych professionals used to be encouraged to bait or purposefully leave information out or use different names for integration to attempt to coerce their plural patients into final fusion. in conclusion, not all plurality is disordered, source your shit, and if you're going to talk about only dissociative disorders at least get your claims right. thank you. stop spreading misinformation.

dave got a blinkie for his post so now i want one

[/image id: green and yellow blinkie gif with the words "written by jade harley!" in pixelpoiiz font. end id.]

[/image id: blinkie with a dark blue, almost black background featuring multiple stars, one of which twinkles. contains text reading "written by kankri." in the pixeloid sans font. end id.]

[sophieinwonderland]

Response to Sysmed on the Boundaries With Normality

Here's the original post.

Yay! You finally found it!

Did anyone else catch what they did there?

Here is the full text for comparison:

For those who are not aware, "e.g." is short for exempli gratia, which essentially means "for example."

Acknowledging this, the boundaries with normality could be rephrased as such:

The presence of two or more distinct personality states does not always indicate the presence of a mental disorder. In certain circumstances (such as experienced by ‘mediums’ or other culturally accepted spiritual practitioners, for example), the presence of multiple personality states is not experienced as aversive and is not associated with impairment in functioning. A diagnosis of Dissociative Identity Disorder should not be assigned in these cases.

The use of e.g. intentionally leaves it open for other nonpathological forms of plurality.

But it seems to have been strategically omitted by the OP in their quote of the text.

I find it extremely deceptive to pull that part of a sentence out of context, and cut the e.g. from it, without showing readers the full text.

If they were specifying that only those practices apply, it would have used "i.e." instead.

There are a bunch of claims here that are being made at once. Let's see if I can dispel them.

#1 "Tulpamancy is a spiritual practice"

This is largely false. Although it's a claim that sysmeds love repeating and spreading among their circles.

In Varieties of Tulpa Experiences, by Dr. Samuel Veissière, 76.% of tulpamancers surveyed reported having purely psychological explanations for their tulpas. Comparatively, only 8.5% reported purely metaphysical explanations.

Tulpamancy is largely a psychological practice, not a spiritual one.

#2 "Spiritual Practices Are Inherently Intentional and Therefore Aren't 'Natural Systems'"

Genuinely, not sure how they are making such a reach.

If you listen to spiritual mediums, many will describe having connections to spirits at a young age, and that being a medium wasn't something they chose.

For a concrete example though, here is one case study describing a spiritual leader who experienced possession states since childhood.

While this is just a case study, one wouldn't need to venture far into spiritualist circles to confirm this as fairly common and natural.

#3 "Being a System is More Than Just Headmates"

We've entered into the semantic part of the conversation. "This isn't a system because it doesn't meet my baseless and arbitrary definition of systemhood."

Anyway, the use of "system" in reference to people with multiple parts has also been applied by Internal Family Systems therapy since the 80s. And researchers into endogenic systems have frequently referred to endogenic systems as systems.

See Dr. Michael Lifshitz referring specifically to tulpa "systems" in the r/tulpas AMA.

The fact is that there is no strict definition of system that only applies to DID and OSDD.

If you disagree with this, I might ask under what basis you would have for believing Dr. Lifshitz is misusing medical terminology.

No.

But you are intentionally misleading people by omitting the "e.g." from the quoted text because you know it would undermine your argument to quote it in full.

I find it incredibly dishonest and deceitful to cut words from your quote but make it clear that this is just an example which inherently implies that there are other scenarios where someone can be plural without a disorder, then accuse me of stretching the exclusion.

It does NOT specify that.

It uses that as an example.

Again, it only has the appearance of specifying because you selectively removed part of the sentence.

Do you possess clairvoyance to know what the authors intended?

The ICD-11 was published in 2019.

This was 3 years after Varieties of Tulpa Experiences delved into the tulpa community's plurality.

This was 2 years after "Multiplicity: An Explorative Interview Study on Personal Experiences of People with Multiple Selves," the first interview study into the online plural community outside of tulpamancy, which interviewed plural systems and concluded that multiplicity made up a spectrum.

This was 1 year after Transgender Mental Health was published by the American Psychiatric Association, affirming that you can be plural without trauma or a disorder.

Trying to read the minds of the authors of the ICD-11 seems like a pointless endeavor to me. And also, a distraction.

It's distracting from the fact that the ICD-11 explicitly confirms that there are other ways to experience plurality (i.e. what it refers to as multiple "distinct personality states") without a mental disorder.

We've shown our sources. Now burden of proof is on you to provide this evidence you claim exists.

Thus far, the only sysmed sources pertain to DID exclusively, and do not address plurality outside of that. This makes these sources utterly useless against the mounting papers affirming the existence of endogenic plurality, and the ever-growing number of professionals who have acknowledged that endogenic plurality is a real psychological phenomenon.

*Makes sideways glances to my list of sources on endogenic and non-disordered plurality.*

Though to be honest, I actually like the Guardians doc better since it gives a brief overview of what each one is about.

Mine has become more of a personal thing. A list of sources I'm familiar with to be able to easily find and cite as needed, stored in one easy location and categorized with simple sifting in mind.

But the sources are there.

Wrap-up

Overall, as a rebuttal to the Boundaries With Normality, this seems pretty weak.

The fact that you've conceded that plurality can be caused by intentional effort heavily undermines the trauma-exclusive claims.

You've acknowledged that some endogenic systems are real. Specifically those with spiritual origins. Though I'm sure if given the chance, you would invent stipulations why only certain spiritual origins are valid.

But the most important part of this is the acknowledgement that you don't need trauma to be plural.

It seems the goalposts have moved from "you can only be plural with trauma" to "you can only be plural from trauma or intentional practices."

Which I suppose is a good start. 🤷‍♀️

[many-but-one]

What's your opinion on this [https://www.tumblr.com/ratinacoat/764250900023951360/no-one-who-says-ramcoa-isnt-real-is-saying-that?source=share] (highlighted for convenience) post? I came across it and felt a little miffed by it. Though I do see where they are coming from, I suppose. I wondered what ya'll's opinion would be... I just don't feel it's an adequate reason for programmed systems to stop using terms that makes them feel seen and comfortable. Thank you for reading this.

Well Wishes,

Pomegranate O.L.

From what I can gather, they are boiling RAMCOA down to “ritual abuse” and “trafficking” but completely disregarding the “MC” part of the acronym. I understand where they are coming from, as the acronym was unfortunately created by people who are antisemitic, but that is hardly the survivor’s faults, imho. It sounds like they are conflating the MC part of the acronym with conspiracy, when MC is not a conspiracy, even though it is unfortunately riddled with people who are conspiracy theorists.

We’ve said it before and we will say it again—MC is not really done by hyper-secret government orgs, they’re done by the church on the corner, they’re done at daycare centers, they’re done by political cults, religious cults, familial units, and trafficking rings. MC is not complicated on the surface, it’s just conditioning taken to an extreme degree. Not everyone who has MC done to them will develop a dissociative disorder, and adults who go through MC who didn’t prior have a dissociative disorder can then develop one after going through MC traumas. This is OSDD-2, in the DSM-V. MC done to children who have the tendency to dissociate and have disorganized attachments to their primary caregivers will most certainly develop DID, and if they do, it’s not terribly difficult for MC abusers/programmers to learn how to negatively or positively trigger out certain alters to do undue harm to them and manipulate them to have certain beliefs about themselves and behaviors that the part will repeat when triggered out.

Those that wrote books about RAMCOA are shitty people who abused their patients and are antisemitic, but that doesn���t mean we should discount everything they learned. Like we have said before, we don’t discount all research in the medical and psychological field just because the studies or the doctors were abusive. Van der Hart was also a POS who abused his patients, yet his book “The Haunted Self” is one of the best written works for people with dissociative disorders and is consistently recommended to dissociative patients. I don’t know why we excuse him, the Axis powers in WWII (Germany and Japan), and all other horrific human experiments done in the name of science, but suddenly draw the line at RAMCOA researchers/therapists. Yeah, they were bad. Yeah, they are antisemitic. I’m not saying we should excuse their behavior. They were right to be removed from their positions. However, what they learned cannot be completely discounted. This shit isn’t black and white.

As an aside, we made a post about how planting false memories in patients is not possible and talked about why the False Memory Foundation and their supporters pushing this narrative is a detriment to survivors everywhere, but especially those who have been through RAMCOA traumas.

In addition, there is a new acronym out there (though it’s not my personal favorite) which is OEA, which means “Organized and Extreme Abuse.” I feel like it doesn’t quite capture what is necessary under that umbrella, but it is a viable replacement term and has a very broad umbrella that covers a lot of things. What terms survivors use is not up to anyone else but the survivor, and pulling the “conspiracy theory” card is getting old as hell. I do sort of understand where OP is coming from in terms of the origins of the acronym, but survivors are not at fault for where it came from and it should be up to the survivor to choose how they want to refer to it for themselves. My therapist uses the terms OEA and RAMCOA interchangeably because they mean the same thing. If antisemitism is the main complaint, then I think it would be beneficial to consider spreading the term OEA and encourage people to use that term instead rather than being angry at people using the term that they have a problem with and saying it’s all a conspiracy theory when it’s not.

I wish people would stop policing what terms other people use and stop conflating MC with conspiracy, though I doubt that wish will come true anytime soon.

[mcytblraufest]

*Smacks pinch-hits on the table*

So! When you have a hundred and eighty people writing stories, you get more people whose lives explode. We have ONE more pinch hit coming up, hopefully the last list!

PH25 is a DSMP au, focusing on Ranboo & Technoblade, with background Dream & Ranboo. It's a Parkour Civilization AU with two images, and the artist is an adult who's good to work with all ages. They're good with major character death and graphic depictions of violence, as well as body horror, unhappy endings, gore, and for the other end of the spectrum— fluff! So you have potential. CLAIMED

PH26 is a Hermitcraft AU focusing on Geminitay & Joel Smallishbeans, and it's a Murder Mystery/Time Loop au! The artist is a minor who's good with working with all ages, and they opted into graphic depictions of violence, major character death, and a broad list of fandom themes ranging from adoption to family dynamics to body horror! Your options are open! CLAIMED

PH 27 is a DSMP au focusing on Dream/Tommyinnit, with character reference sheets and a 3-page comic! It's a modern mob (organized crime) au, and the artist has okayed a broad spectrum of content, from graphic depictions of violence, to fluff, to kidnapping, to non-consensual touching, to body horror. The author is an adult and they are looking for a team of adults. CLAIMED

PH 28 is a Hermitcraft AU focusing on Zedaph & zedeath & wormman (all as part of the same DID/OSDD/etc system). It's a the magnus archives crossover, and the artist has okayed major character death, graphic depictions of violence, body horror, torture, and open endings, in addition to varian pronouns and neurodiverse headcanons, for a full spectrum of options! The artist is an adult who is open to working with all ages. CLAIMED

PH29 is a 3rd Life AU focusing on Scott Smajor & PearlescentMoon & ZombieCleo, and it's a Post-canon isekai deity au. With themes of religion, death and fire, the artist oped into Graphic Depictions of violence and a decent list of fandom themes, and the artist is a minor open to working with all ages. CLAIMED

PH30 is a hermitcraft AU focusing on Bdubs & Impulse OR Bdubs/Impulse, Scar/Grian, with the au being "A Happy Home Designer inspired Au where the Hermits are building houses and their town for local minecraft YouTubers kind of a crossover(?) but not really it’s more of a slice of life "! The artist does not want major archive warnings attached to their work, but they opted into a significant list of fandom themes like variant pronouns, disability heacanons, and characters from other fandoms being used as side characters. They are a minor who's open to working with all ages. CLAIMED

Are either of these you? We need 5k written by Midnight EST on August 9th, so these artists still get to participate in the event. If you think you can help, join the discord here, and talk to the mods!

[deadcaralarm]

Welcome to the equivalent of hell.

i go by jamie or milo. No preference.

My pronouns are he,she,it,pup,freak along with any xeno or neo pronouns.

I am an OSDD-1B system, Fluctiate between i/me and we/us but i mainly just stick with i/me.

Feel totally free to ask for my simply plural or discord.

Send me asks whenever! For anything, Really. Conversation or to bully the fuck out of me(lh). I adore the attention

I dont mind asking to speak with specific people(/sys) either, so feel free

anons :

🐾🪓 🌜 🔳🎪 🦇🎶 💛🦀 🖥️📡 💌

. Feel free to steal a tag

I am objectum and paraphilic+transid , antis follow your own dnis and fuck off

my account has no DNI. I block freely. If you make me uncomfortable or are an asshole, I wont be afraid to block

@chargedcaralarm is my other, More nsfw blog. More in depth posts about (potentially) sh, eds, general transharmful/harmed rambles, and definitely suggestive/posts about fucking . It wont always be active and sometimes it'll be considerably more active than others - im just hypersexual, unfortunately

Tags -

#⚰️ reblogs ;;

#⚰️ anon asks ;;

#⚰️ jamie rambles ;;

[ #⚰️ op is radqueer + transid/para user :: ] is used for posts that are unrelated to rq/para/transid so that antis don't interact. [ #⚰️ (name) rambles ;; ] will be used for specific headmates posting

[multiplicity-positivity]

Hi, we were really curious if this is just an us thing or if it's more common than we thought, but, we have osdd 1b and smoke weed. Sometimes that creates fragmented splits of introjects or hightened system activity, and can feel like barriers between headmates gets thinner but memory barriers between them get thicker. Like different levels of muckiness in the water, I guess?

(I had no idea where else I could ask a question like this, so thought I'd try here! I hope you dont mind op)

hey, every system is different, and drugs can affect different systems and even different headmates in the same system in different ways. we’re not entirely sure what you mean, but we think we can relate a little bit?

we have never split a new part from smoking, but we did often experience this weird thing where communicating with other alters gets easier, but accessing memories (our own or each other’s) gets more difficult. this was really useful for getting to know more vulnerable/traumatized parts without having to encounter any of the traumatic memories they hold on to. it varied between system members in its intensity, though, and some parts found communication just as difficult/memories just as accessible high when sober.

we’ll open this up to any system who has similar experiences or wants to share how weed has affected their system. we don’t mind answering drug-related asks. we’re actually two months sober at this time, but it doesn’t bother us to talk about these sorts of things.

[darknanigans]

new alter

do YOU want a character that you said VILE DEPRAVED UNHOLY things about in YOUR headspace?

(its not that i don't want him here its that im EMBARRASED).

SIIIIIGHHHHHHHHHH

I on the other hand am very happy to meet Mr. Ancunin! I think he is wonderful. He thinks we are very silly 😋 -KTE

argaragrgar i'm happy he's here too but we know what we are

astarion if you ever come to read this, i'm so sorry for our freak behavior

We? Our?

we. our.

[gipzisays209]

Are... Are Anti-Endos serious? Like, is this a legitimate, honest fucking opinion? Because I genuinely cannot tell anymore what is satire and what is serious...

Let's just... digest that "positivity" post for a sec, under the cut right here.

"If you're [Insert thing here] you can be a system, but you can't be a system unless you fit this super specific criteria that WE say you fit under!"

I hate to break it to you, but you can be a system BECAUSE of the things on that list, not IN SPITE OF THEM. Plurality is NOT EXCLUSIVE TO DID AND OSDD, and no amount of saying we aren't valid is going to change that. My plurality was caused because of my Alterhumanity and my spirituality, not because of trauma... and DEFINITELY independently of any kind of CDD. Yes, trauma was a factor later on, but originally? Trauma played no role.

So yes, there are those of us out there that are plural and Alterhuman. Yes, there are those of us out there that are plural and Trans. Yes, there are those of us out there that suffer from things like NPD, Schizophrenia, BPD, and a MYRIAD of other disorders AND ARE PLURAL. A CDD IS NOT A REQUIREMENT TO BE PLURAL, AND NO AMOUNT OF BITCHING ON YOUR "POSITIVITY" POST IS GOING TO CHANGE THAT.

Like. Do you... fucking hear yourself. You LEGITIMATELY SAID "It does not matter what or who someone is". And then you pull "But not Endos" IN THE VERY START OF A POSITIVITY POST.

It is NOT a positivity post if you're directly targeting a group of individuals WITH SAID POST! A positivity post is INCLUSIVE and is aimed at bringing people up, not knocking people down. Directly and clearly excluding a group from your positivity post automatically makes it an attempt at exclusionary bullying, not a positivity post. Like the message OP was going for, but poor and tasteless execution. 3/10.

I actually hope this shit is satire... But unfortunately I have a feeling it isn't. Because since when are exclusionaries capable of such nuance, right. Especially when they're blatantly ignoring the collections of sources put forward to them, like this one from Sophie, or this one from the Guardian System.

So congrats on the half-assed attempt at bigotry, Antis, but I suggest that every time one sees a "positivity" post that has tags like these, find positivity in it anyways. Not only will it (hopefully) make you feel better, but it'll make the exclusionaries pissed off to know that we're turning their attempts at being bigots into something that ACTUALLY spreads positivity!

This has been another Ted Talk from your local Dragonkin Mixed-Origin system on why positivity posts don't make good ammo for bigotry, and once again, your friendly reminder that being a system is an individual experience that can't be defined by one label or box. Anyone that tries to tell you otherwise, especially random people on the Internet, is being a bigot. Have a wonderful day!

[ant1quarian]

... i need PTSD Midoriya thank you very fuckin' much.

this OP motherfucker has no mental repercussions for doing what he does. for living through all of that shit.

fuck it he has OSDD now and his headmates are the other holders of One For All.

( i won't be ranting about Mha a lot. undertale is still far more beloved )

[tf2heritageposts]

which merc do you think is most likely to be plural

i actually have a headcanon that soldier has DID, but we also had a scrapped fic planned where medic has osdd due to us seeing so much dumb split personality shit with medic and sec op that pissed us off as a sys

[sophieinwonderland]

An Anti-Endo's Message for Willogenic Systems. Spoiler: Every Word is Wrong!

Starting off with ableist accusations of delusions.

They also don't seem to understand that willogenic systems don't generally will themselves to develop DID.

Maybe they're thinking of transDID. 🤷‍♀️

Accusations of DID faking stretch back a long time. Long before people started paying attention to endogenic and willogenic systems. And there's no evidence the existence of willogenic or endogenic systems has increased this.

In the infamous fakeclaiming McLean Hospital video, the people he used as examples from TikTok were mostly diagnosed traumagenic systems. In the incredibly flawed papers on "imitated DID," many of the case studies claimed to have trauma.

Also, I have it on good authority from many, many traumagenic DID systems that yes, DID systems can create alters.

Oh, and this gets even worse when you delve into the comments!

Now, system isn't really a medical term, and definitely isn't strictly used for people with DID or OSDD.

See Internal Family Systems therapy, for instance.

And outside of that, it's been used in non-medical contexts by non-disordered systems for close to 30 years.

I covered this particular talking point more in my Syscourse Primer.

Aside from the general misinformation though, I also do want to draw attention to the general ableism of calling people you think are suffering from delusions "insane."

Something they double down on, while also saying willogenic systems need hospitalized.

And they double down even further, saying that forced hospitalization is necessary for people.

And I'll say that I don't completely disagree with this there being cases where it's necessary.

At least, I think there are some very, VERY extreme circumstances where people will need to be temporarily hospitalized, such as if they're an immediate danger to themselves or others. There may be no other choice. (Say, if someone has a delusion that they could fly and had plans to test it by jumping off of a roof to prove to people they could.)

Without any sort of immediate danger though, forced hospitalization is likely to do far more harm than good.

This should only be a LAST RESORT option

It's overused as it is. And guess what? The medical community doesn't just lock up anyone who has any sort of delusion!

Not all delusions are harmful! Or, at least, not all delusions put someone at an immediate risk of causing harm to themselves or others.

And this is without touching on how "believing in something I don't like" isn't even a delusion.

At worst, the unfalsifiability of the claim puts this in the same realm as religion. You could just as easily apply this same logic to suggest anyone who feels the presence of God when they pray is delusional.

Part of the reason this is sticky is... who determines who is of sound mind? What gives them the right to strip away an innocent person's rights?

Because like it or not, forced medical confinement is imprisonment without trial, when no laws have been broken. Even if there are extreme cases where this may be necessary, the standard for this needs to be a lot higher than it is now.

And notably, they're suggesting we need a lower standard where anyone with any sort of delusion, or anything they deem to be a delusion, should be forced into confinement.

That is completely unacceptable.

What's even more confusing though is that they seem to suggest in another comment that the thing that makes people "insane" is using the word "willogenic" instead of "tulpa."

So it's not even wanting to lock people up for the belief they have people in their head...

But for calling them a word the OP doesn't want them to?

Imagine calling for people to have their rights stripped away and be forcefully confined because of disagreements over how a word is used!

...

And maybe this is getting nitpicky now...

But no they didn't...

They later showed a picture of this, where a willogenic anon asked how to BUY headmates. But they did not mention selling any.

The actual owner of that account, as far as I know, didn't identify as willogenic.

Oh, and they also posted another image as "proof" of this which didn't mention buying or selling headmates.

Oh, wait! That one is mine!

@artistry-andfandom

What was this screenshot even supposed to prove? Why did you use my post as an example of buying and selling headmates???

[sysmedsaresexist]

Can I add something anonymously about that post where you responded to someone saying they don't have a CDD because they feel like their systemhood is "the only condition [they] have NOT disabling [them]"? And this isn't like at the OP of that but just to bring this thought to people's attention, because I said practically the same thing when I got my DID assessment results.

Depending on what those other conditions are, if you haven't been assessed by someone with adequate experience in dissociative disorders (and maybe OP has, but that's why I say this isn't at OP specifically), it's hard to know that those conditions aren't caused or worsened by system-related stuff. There are a lot of ways that DID/OSDD can cause functional impairment that isn't directly and clearly related to switching or time loss.

I used to think my ADHD is much worse than it actually is, because I thought THAT was the reason for "losing track of time" so much, being so forgetful, suddenly feeling like I couldn't do something I normally can, "spacing out" all the time, suddenly saying things I hadn't realized I was about to say, etc. My ADHD contributes to those things of course, but it isn't the sole cause. That's functional impairment from DID, too.

People with DID/OSDD often can also meet criteria for PTSD (always, I think?), depression (almost always, afaik), anxiety, and oftentimes a variety of other disorders -- and whether a therapist diagnoses those things alongside DID/OSDD or chooses not to diagnose them because the symptoms are "better explained by" being considered part of DID/OSDD, there are a lot of ways those symptoms will interact with DID/OSDD, if someone has that. From symptom holders and emotion holders as an obvious example, to just having things affecting different alters differently. Having passive influence from a suicidal alter that gives you those thoughts is functional impairment. Nightmares disrupting your sleep on a regular basis is functional impairment.

I know it's also common for us to have somatic symptoms, too, especially headaches and migraines. Having to miss work because of migraines is functional impairment.

And it can also be less obvious things like related to work, school, socializing, or even a lot of emotional distress. Avoiding friends when certain alters are fronting because they feel uncomfortable having to pretend to be the host is functional impairment. Having a panic attack about going to work because you're expected to be competent in something but an alter is fronting who isn't as familiar with it is functional impairment. Consistently thinking you're worthless because you can't get a consistent sense of who you are as a person is functional impairment.

Sorry for the rambling, I'm just really passionate about this. I don't view my alters themselves as a "problem" or "impairment" at all -- they're the ones who help me get through the day despite all the stuff we deal with, so I'm really grateful for them actually -- but we developed in the way we did specifically because of DID, and our DID does impact us a lot, just... not in the ways people might expect? And if people can relate to that, I want those people to get the help they need, not just say "oh, but the problems aren't caused by my system."

^^^

I absolutely relate

I love this, thank you

[fleshbrides]

may the sea dweller ask for a promo ... ?

hii !! i'm sasha or cody, i use he/she/hym/it pronouns. i'm the host of a did system and i recently just made a server for genshin impact players!!

here is the invite : click me!

it's system and osdd friendly ^_^ it has channels to trade and sell accounts and search for co op partners! please join its very fun

thats all!! have a great day