#odysseus loves his wife

[vstrays]

i love how YouTube has split There Are Other Ways LMAO.

this is so funny to me.

MY WIFE.

[winterspellsfrozenkit]

So, I LOVE Epic: This Musical and I'm excited for some of the songs in the Circe Saga, but one of TWO songs that I absolutely DESPISE in this musical is coming out and I'm so stressed out about it.

"There Are Other Ways" and "I'm Not Sorry For Loving You" make me so frustrated because it looks like they fall into downplaying the coercion and abuse Odysseus went through because the abusers are women. AND I HATE THAT.

"There Are Other Ways" is a song between a person who has power to force a person into doing what they want (Circe) and their victim (Odysseus), who can only comply. And from what I've read it has the line "There's no puppet here."

It's really clever writing because if you know the story, you know Odysseus is in a precarious situation and he was told by Hermes that when she asked to sleep with him, he needed to do it. Here's three different translations of the moment Hermes tells him "Don't you tell her no" with the warning from Hermes bolded:

"'And I will tell thee all the baneful wiles of Circe. She will mix thee a potion, and cast drugs into the food; but even so she shall not be able to bewitch thee, for the potent herb that I shall give thee will not suffer it. And I will tell thee all. When Circe shall smite thee with her long wand, then do thou draw thy sharp sword from beside thy thigh, and rush upon Circe, as though thou wouldst slay her. And she will be seized with fear, and will bid thee lie with her. Then do not thou thereafter refuse the couch of the goddess, that she may set free thy comrades, and give entertainment to thee. But bid her swear a great oath by the blessed gods, that she will not plot against thee any fresh mischief to thy hurt, lest when she has thee stripped she may render thee a weakling and unmanned.’

“ ‘And I will tell you of all the wicked witchcraft that Circe will try to practice upon you. She will mix a potion for you to drink, and she will drug the meal with which she makes it, but she will not be able to charm you, for the virtue of the herb that I shall give you will prevent her spells from working. I will tell you all about it. When Circe strikes you with her wand, draw your sword and spring upon her as though you were going to kill her. She will then be frightened, and will desire you to go to bed with her; on this you must not directly refuse her, for you want her to set your companions free, and to take good care also of yourself, but you must make her swear solemnly by all the blessed gods that she will plot no further mischief against you, or else when she has got you naked she will unman you and make you fit for nothing.’

"I will tell you all Circe’s fatal wiles. She will mix a drink for you, blending drugs with the food, but even so she will fail to enchant you: the powerful herb I will give you will prevent it. Let me tell you the rest. When Circe strikes you with her length of wand, draw your sharp sword and rush at her, as if you intend to kill her. She will be seized with fear. Then she’ll invite you to her bed, and don’t refuse the goddess’ favours, if you want her to free your men, and care for you too. But make her swear a solemn oath by the blessed gods that she won’t try to harm you with her mischief, lest when you are naked she robs you of courage and manhood.”’

He had no choice in the matter. It was a "you will have to sacrifice yourself OR you will never get your men back and you won't be safe if you don't do it" moment. While Circe's not telling this directly to Odysseus, it's still COERCION because he knows if he says "No, I want to be faithful to my wife" Circe will harm him. But a lot of people don't know that and are going to continue to perpetuate the idea that Odysseus cheated on his wife. 😒 And they're going to use that line of "There's no puppets here" as "proof" that Odysseus cheated.

If you can sympathize with Ovid's later adaptation of Medusa as a victim of Poseidon, but refuse to acknowledge Odysseus was as much a victim of Circe AND Calypso and claim he's cheating... Please, ask yourself: why is that?

[o3o-lapd-o3o]

Odysseus: Honey, I’m home! Did anything happen while I was gone?

Penelope, as the servants roll 108 barrels of hydrochloric acid out the back door: No nothing much

hdhdhdh (੭˃ᴗ˂)੭

penelope wasn't going to let having her son punched/hit & being belittled slide... and of course the threat of them trying to take her husband's throne but nobody touches her 'little wolf'!

(like really antinous you thought beating up the prince of ithaca, and then telling him to go cry to his spartan-blooded mother was the best course of action??? man sealed his own barrel fate)

but yes i love when people don't think of penelope as weak or unable to handle herself.

she was born and raised in sparta. she is the daughter of a spartan king and queen. she is half-naiad. she is as cunning and full of tricks as her husband. she is the queen. she is a mother. nothing would be able to defeat her.

[superkooku]

Since I’m on the topic of epic the musical a lot I have a mini rant.

I HATE people who say Odysseus deserves what he got with Calypso and with Circe or say he’s a cheater because of it. (I might be wrong for what happened with Circe so pls correct me if wrong!)

IM IN YOUR FLOORBOARDS. I AM HIDING IN YOUR WALLS.

I remember someone once said that Odysseus must’ve “liked” what happened to him. NO???

I just hate the contradiction’s of people being like “I feel so bad for the victims in Greek mythology!” Or say “we need more male representation!” And then when it is given they take it as a joke or blame him.

I find it very fucked up someone could even think and say this. The victim blaming is CRAZY THO WHEN IT COMES TO ODYSSEUS….

Lol I don't have anything to add. I already talked about the subject multiple times and completely agree with you. Odysseus is a SA victim and needs to stay in Penelope's arms. Period.

Also, the thing with Circe in the Odyssey isn't full-on rape but more coercion. Especially with Hermes being like "get in her bed, don't refuse" and Circe having turned his men into pigs. Calypso though.... yeah, he didn't consent at all and cried every day for 7 years.

[winterspellsfrozenkit]

As someone who's harbored a deep dislike and disgust for how Calypso is written in a lot of media where's a pitiable person who got her heart broken by Odysseus and don't we feel so bad for her, I'M SO GLAD EPIC MADE IT CLEAR TO THE AUDIENCE HOW CALYPSO IGNORED ODYSSEUS WHEN HE SAID "NO" AND KEPT SAYING "NO".

SHE IGNORED HIS NO AND TOOK HIS CONSENT AWAY FROM HIM. HE WASN'T JUST ON THAT LEDGE JUST FROM THE TRAUMA OF HIS TRAVELS.

God, love in paradise made me feel sick to my stomach in ways you couldn't imagine. Like my god, I have never been so scared for Odysseus than in that moment- and don't get me started of Calypso she gave me chills.

The way that she pointedly ignored Odysseus words when he told her Penelope was his wife, and how she blatantly ignored his rejections like he was a cute animal that didn't know any better. My god, I truly think she is the scariest god in this musical and fully encompass how terrifying they can be for a mortal who can't fight back.

Like my god just let him go back home!!!!! He doesn't deserve this!!!!!

[sunshines-child]

isn't it like canonical that penelope was (and still is) a gorgeous pretty beautiful wowza lady and odysseus was just some eepy raccoon when they first met

[risetherivermoon]

i think people should implement the fact Odysseus cries CONSTANTLY in the Odyssey into their epic stuff more...cuz the sentence 'I then began to weep" is said so much itd take me forever to tally it up,

[ghostvibesonly]

THERE ARE OTHER WAYS DID NOT GO WHERE I WAS EXPECTING IT TO OH MY GOD /POS

PENELOPE’S THEME AND INSTRUMENT?? ODYSSEUS BEING QUITE LITERALLY BACKED INTO A CORNER AND HAVING SEEMINGLY NO OTHER WAY TO SAVE HIS MEN BUT STILL NOT BEING ABLE TO BRING HIMSELF TO GO THROUGH WITH THE ACT (EVEN THO IT WOULDN’T BE A TRUE ACT OF BETRAYAL BECAUSE THERE’S NO ACTUAL CONSENT ON HIS SIDE AND IT WAS SOMETHING HE WAS ABOUT TO BE COERCED INTO)??? CIRCE BEING TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF BEFORE AND BELIEVING THAT “BECOMING THE PUPPETEER” IS THE ONLY WAY TO KEEP HERSELF AND HER NYMPHS SAFE SO SHE OFFERS THIS “ACT OF PASSION” TO STILL HAVE A FORM OF CONTROL, AND THEN SEEING ODYSSEUS IS NOT LIKE THOSE BEFORE BECAUSE HE’S SO IN LOVE WITH PENELOPE (WHO HE HASN’T SEEN IN 12 YEARS) THAT HE REFUSES HER OFFER AND PLEADS BECAUSE IT’S NOT WORTH IT EVEN THO THATS THE ONLY OPTION HE’S BEEN GIVEN??? HIM CALLING HIMSELF A PUPPET MAKING HER REALIZE THAT THIS CYCLE OF ABUSE AND CONTROL ISN’T WORTH IT ONLY TO COME TO A MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING BECAUSE SHE KNOWS WHAT IT’S LIKE TO BE TRULY IN LOVE AND TO BE HURT, SO SHE OFFERS HIM AN ACT OF KINDNESS INSTEAD???

“Maybe showing one act of kindness leads to kinder souls down the road”

[letsplaythermalnuclearwar]

okay but the genuine rage in Ody's voice when he says he's married??? the actual fury??? like he's about to stab this woman for not understanding that he's taken??? and Gigi got it so well with her animatic, he looked like he was actually growling

[aq2003]

has anyone gotten the idea that odysseus' storyline in hades 2 is a depiction/exploration of trauma over his SA and how he's blaming himself for things that were out of his control? because that's the impression i'm getting from what i've seen. he talks about "goddesses" as his "greatest weakness" and that "he's not one to say no to them"...

when mel invites him to the bath, he brings up mortals having different standards for intimacy than gods and how it usually has a more romantic/sexual connotation. she then asks if he's uncomfortable and he has a startled reaction and brings up circe and calypso again (but never actually by name)

(this isn't ship/romance bait btw. odysseus knew mel as a kid and they're stated in-game to have a sibling/uncle-niece relationship)

also he grew apart from penelope after his return, but the game makes a point of showing that his love for penelope and telemachus is what drove him on at all so that element of his character isn't brought into question

[callmesel]

Penelope and her world criminal husband

[notcryingtoday]

why is it always "sorry i have a partner" and never "hell no i could kill you where you stand, i'm no pet i'm a married men"?

should i lower my standards?

[winterspellsfrozenkit]

In case, you see either my two posts about Epic: The Musical about "There Are Other Ways" and "I'm Not Sorry For Loving You", I want to clarify that I have nothing but respect for Jay's ability to write music. He's talented and he knows what he's doing as the songs are very clever in both music and lyrics and knowing the story makes the songs more impactful. The writing is for "There Are Other Ways" and "I'm Not Sorry For Loving You" shows that Jay knows EXACTLY the situation happening and how to disguise it to hide the nature of what is happening.

That said, I despise these songs because having read the Odyssey, I know what is going on when the songs are happening, and when Jay released snippets of these songs, I saw a lot of people misunderstand the situation because they don't have the same context I do, which is what drives my aggravation.

The second factor that drives my frustration is I have a strong feeling that people who don't read the Odyssey and hear the album are going to misconstrue Odysseus's character into someone who claims to love his wife, but cheats (which he doesn't do) and use these songs as their "proof". Even before Epic came out, people have called Odysseus a cheater and I will admit, I get a touch heated about that because this is my stance: If people want to claim Medusa's later adaptation from Ovid, Persephone, Io, etc. are victims, then they should recognize that Odysseus is one too. If they refuse to acknowledge Odysseus as one, they need to do some soul searching and ask some REALLY uncomfy questions.

I want to be clear: I'm not upset at Jay's writing nor do I think his writing is terrible. Yes, I said "I'm Not Sorry For Loving You" is the worst song ever, but if you read the post, I try to make it clear I'm not coming after Jay's writing, I'm trying to make it clear what the song actually is, rather than what it innocently looks like. Another song I would call the worst song ever is Into The Woods "Any Moment" and that's because of what the song is. Writing's great, music's great, but I still think that song is the worst song ever in Into The Woods given it's Cinderella's Prince looking to incite the Baker's Wife to cheat with him.

Ever since I've read the Odyssey, I was horrified that Odysseus has been treated like a cheater a lot. To be clear, Odysseus does shady, sneaky stuff, but where his feelings on his wife and son are concerned, that is the one consistent. He wants to be with his family. In short, those two posts are basically this:

[o3o-lapd-o3o]

(any time after the events of the vengeance saga & ithaca saga)

*under the ocean in poseidon's palace*

poseidon: *talking with amphitrite*

poseidon: i wouldn't wish that upon my worse enemy!

poseidon: *pauses and feels phantom pains from his old impalement wounds/scars*

poseidon: *eye twitching* ...unless of course...we're talking about my enemy, odysseus.

poseidon: *looking up at the ocean's surface from his underwater palace*

poseidon: fuck you odysseus, you know what you did!

amphitrite: ...

amphitrite: *sighs*

*meanwhile on ithaca*

odysseus: *yapping away with penelope whilst on a walk through the palace grounds*

odysseus: so then i said "cause i don't even have to kill you, i just have to avoid yo-"

odysseus: *violently sneezes*

penelope: ...

penelope: are you feeling unwell, my love?

odysseus: no i'm fine.

odysseus: i just get the feeling im being bad-mouthed...again

odysseus: *turns head and glares at the ocean*

[lidera-aro]

How I thought Odypen was before I listened to Ithaca saga:

Odysseus: Would you love me if I was a worm?

Penelope: *fond, exasperated sigh and eyeroll* Yes, love.

How I think they are after I listened Ithaca saga:

Odysseus: Would you love me if-

Penelope: Yes

Odysseus:

Peneleope: *looking him in the eyes* Yes.

[backpackingspace]

Odysseus with his head in his wife's lap, happily not paying attention to anything, humming one of athenas song and carving something

Some random guy: your majesty----

Odysseus: not bothering to sit up: whatever my wife decided is fine.