#greek myth discussion

[superkooku]

I found those pretty Dionysus dividers on @sister-lucifer's blog. Anyways, here's a credit. And thank you 😊

I'll use them on the other segments of my essay, if it's fine.

Dionysus' iceberg (part 2)

Here's part 1 :

Yes, I know, I took my time with this one 😅. But part 2 is finally here on Tumblr !

And, since there's a lot to say about Dionysus, I'll probably need to do a third one... yes he's that interesting.

In this part, I'll talk about Dionysus' connections to theater, nature and vegetation.

Despite Apollo being the god of the arts, theater is one of Dionysus' domains.

1. Theater 🎭

In fact, his theatre (in Athens) is considered the first in the world! Dionysus is like an entertainer, not only through parties, but also through a performance on the stage.

Okay, more seriously: one of his festivals, the Dionysia, even had five days dedicated to drama. In fact, theater plays are said to be set in competitions honoring Dionysus himself.

This festival in and of itself is quite complex, as it's divided in two categories (rural and city festivals) and has quite a history. So, I'd highly recommend reading more about it.

Even the idea of theater masks come from there ! They were parts of disguises actors (always men) wore to play the roles of women or gods.

I'm gonna stop a bit with the informations to talk about two interesting things :

It's actually really cool that the god of theater is a good actor.

I say that because he managed to fool Pentheus and a WHOLE pirate crew into thinking he's some inoffensive boy. And then, dramatic plot twist : he's not.

Another cool thing : he appeared both in a comedy and tragedy. Probably in other lost plays too. It's part of his duality, which I'll talk about more in part 3.

Anyways, ancient Greek theater, the ancestor of our modern plays, is very closely tied to Dionysus.

2. His link to satyrs

This bearded man is Silenus, son of Hermes and one of the satyrs. The baby he's holding is an infant Dionysus, who was forced to go in hiding because of Hera's wrath.

Edit : forgot to complete this part. So, Silenus is considered Dionysus' tutor, kinda like Chiron and Asclepius, but wilder.

Like Dionysus, he appears to be a funny drunkard, but in reality, he can be very wise too. Heck, he even has some prophecy powers when intoxicated. How cool is that ? I like this little duality.

He notably appears in Midas' myth. Silenus was found by peasants and given to the king. Since Midas took good care of him and showed a lot of hospitality, Dionysus decided to reward him. And we all know how the story goes at that point.

Another important satyr (in the Dionysiaca, for example) is Ampelos/Ampelus. He was a young satyr who could very well be Dionysus' first love. What's so interesting about him is that, after his death (R.I.P), Dionysus transformed him into the first grape vine 🍇 !

(this time, not a flower, unlike Hyacinthus and Crocus).

Yes, if you drink wine, you're technically drinking Ampelos' blood.

In general, the satyrs, along with the maenads, are Dionysus' companions. We all know what satyrs are, but it's not surprising to see two symbols of sexuality, drunkenness and wilderness so closely tied.

Also, coming back to theater, there was something called "satyr plays", a mix between tragedy and comedy that were played during the Dionysian festival.

3. A god of nature and vegetation

There are many other nature gods. They each show their connection to nature in their own unique way.

Of course, there's wine and grapes (and Ampelos), but also a lot more stuff.

Dionysus was said to live his youth on Mount Nysa, in the nature, among nymphs and other satyrs. So those ties would come from very early on in his life.

He's not only the god of grapes, but fruits and plant life in general. It's interesting to see the same domains shared by multiple gods (here with Demeter).

The multiple water and wind gods are another proof of that.

And yes, he can grow vines as much as he pleases, like when he punished the thyranean pirates.

4. A fertility god

Yeah, don't listen to LO, male fertility gods exist too 😂.

He's not even the only one, since there's Priapus as well. And he's often (not always) considered his son, with Aphrodite as the mother.

It's honestly not surprising to see a god of nature and fruits, but also one known for his orgies, being associated with fertility.

So...

There aren't many myths about it, so I'll just include that one because it's interesting.

I went through these informations pretty quickly, in order to keep this post at a normal length. I'd love to see you complete on these particular aspects.

In part 3, I'll talk about Dionysus' duality, but also his link to madness, mortals (like Semele and Ariadne), and other gods.

Part 3 will be the longest, since I'll include a lot more references (to myths like the war against India, the Bacchae and more infos about his cult and stories)

[aliciavance4228]

TW: Explicit Content

Let's make one thing clear: I don't read Greek Mythology Retellings. And by that I mean physical books. I read fanfictions, but I'm not willing to pay money for a book which you can instantly quess that it's mediocre only by looking at it. The common saying "Don't judge a book by it's cover." can be applied to anything but books.

So when I found out that there's a whole HxP book series that is trending on BookTok I decided that I will avoid it like the plague, especially after reading a Goodreads review which described it as "If the worst parts of Fifty Shades of Gray and LO had a baby."

Unfortunately, one of my classmates read it, and when I told her that I will never touch that book she sent me a link with one of the *ahem* scenes in order to convince me:

First of all, it seems like a 12yo kid wrote it. Seriously now, even my celibate ass could write better erotica than this. And second of all, what sequence is supposed to be romantic, exactly?

The worst part is that I'm also an up-and-coming med student, and one of the essential things that you're supposed to learn about the reproductive system is that you have to be "prepared" before getting penetrated. Lubrification begins only after the hormones send signals to the brain that you are sexually aroused and the vaginal glands start secreting fluids to help the process of penetration. Otherwise it feels painful and you risk to get injured. Not to mention the fact that if a someone gets inside you without at least giving you a sign then it could be considered rape.

So there's nothing passional or sensual in this scene, it’s straight up disturbing. Also, is it just me or does anyone else cringe when they read these sort of scenes even when they're alone? Honestly, I'm currently trying to comprehend the fact that there are people (especially girls) who would read this thing and be like 🥵🥵🥵 or something like that.

[superkooku]

It's just so funny how many stories we have of Dionysus DYING.

You'd think an immortal god wouldn't get killed so much.

(Correction from 3/11/2024 : the Perseus and Lycurgus anecdotes are from rarer versions of the myth, not the common one, but it's still interesting to explore it either through an abstract lense or just "Dionysus' defeat")

First, orphism. Where Zagreus is dismembered by the Titans, whom Hera sent. He's then reborn.

Then, Perseus slaying him in their war against each other (right after Ariadne). And Hera's involved both times.

Finally, one version of Lycurgus' myth where the king kills Ambrosia, one of his caregivers and then a young Dionysus is forced to jump in the water. Well, it's not said he died as Thetis saved him and the others from drowning, but still...

And then he comes back to get revenge on Lycurgus and that man is horrified to see him again, because he literally killed him. That alone would make him go insane, and Dionysus just relishes in his victory.

Another detail: it's never stated how and if he comes back to life after Perseus' victory. He's buried at one point, but since he's a god, of course he has to somehow be resurrected.

So i'm just imagining him raising from the dead and terrifying everyone in the process. Just digging himself out of a grave and being like "Oh... I died again? That's starting to get annoying."

I don't think Perseus would be afraid, though. Dionysus' shenanigans never impressed him that much and he has seen many things. He'd probably be aggravated and they'd make up at this moment.

Dionysus, buddy, you rightfully earned your title of "god of death and rebirth".

And I'm not saying Dionysus is weak or anything, he was very young in 2/3 of the stories and Perseus is just that goated (and the city of Argos was sacred to Hera , so it wouldn't be a stretch to imagine her helping Perseus win like Athena with Diomedes.

But he probably just did it on his own, which is an enormous feat !)

And Dionysus has his fair share of victories (in the Gigantomachy, against Pentheus, Lycurgus the revenge, against INDIA as a whole, etc...)

Dionysus' death is just some recurring theme that makes his story even more interesting and ties him to his human origins, with Semele.

[superkooku]

Seeing @sarafangirlart 's post about Kaos made me notice a new trend :

It's slightly better than dumb drunk but still removes the best elements about him: the frenzy, the madness, the terror, the liberation. Also, Dionysus participated in three mythological wars (Gigantomachy), two that he led himself (against Perseus and against India).

Dionysus, as the liberator and against inhibiting structures and figures of authority, immediately enters in conflict with every mortal king he meets (Pentheus, Lycurgus, Proteus, Labdacus, Perseus...) and always DISRUPTS the peace when he comes to their city.

He's not like "Hello my friends, can you worship me please 🥺 ?" His punishments are wild, seriously, some Eldritch horror stuff.

Also his great grandfather is literally ARES, I'm not even joking.

He's literally one of the worst candidates 😂.

Also, in Hades II, it's used as an excuse to remove him from the plot, which made me super upset (maybe the worst decision in the game. Right besides wrecking OdyPen).

For the peaceful god/goddess, choose Hestia, Eirene, Hypnos, Hebe, Asclepius idk, some chill deities that don't like to be involved in fights or exclusively helped people or stayed in the corner doing their own thing. Not the god who has crazy beast women as priestesses.

[superkooku]

Persean task : when someone gives you an incredibly difficult task in order to get rid of you (not necessarily a deadly one. Just something distracting enough)

the fact that we only have “herculean task” and “sisyphean task” feels so limiting. so here’s a few more tasks for your repertoire

icarian task: when you have a task you know you’re going to fail at anyways, so why not have some fun with it before it all comes crashing down

cassandrean task: when you have to deal with people you KNOW won’t listen to you, despite having accurate information, and having to watch them fumble about when you told them the solution from the start (most often witnessed in customer service)

feel free to chime in i ran out of ideas much faster than i anticipated

[superkooku]

What are your personal pet peeves in Greek mythology adaptations ?

And bonus question: which one could give us a bingo from this card ?

Here are mine :

To me, inaccurate ≠ bad

Heck, I love Epic the musical. I'd NEVER pretend it's an accurate adaptation of the Odyssey. Especially after the Thunder saga.

But the spirit has to be kept and the author must do their research. Otherwise, it shows.

Tagging some fellow Greek myth enthusiasts : @dootznbootz @kebriones @margaretkart @katerinaaqu @vint-knight

Edit : for the minor gods part. I thought if they're important in X source material myth but aren't mentioned in the adaptation at all. Of course, not making every single deity appear is normal.

[superkooku]

Favorite character from Greek mythology + favorite myth from Greek mythology?

Favorite characters

I'll turn this into a tag game : @margaretkart @dootznbootz @sarafangirlart @aliciavance4228 @katerinaaqu @hermesmoly @go-rocksquadsfan @sanska @vint-knight .

And @anon (you can give your answer in another ask 😉).

So, I have a loooooooot of faves. This list is long.

Here are mine :

Nobody. Yeah, in reality, I hate mythology and just pretend I like it. Or I just love making puns about my favorite lying war criminal. Who didn't cheat btw.

Penelope. These two are soulmates, no ifs or buts. I always found her underrated and @dootznbootz 's ramblings on her confirm that. Cunning and sassy half-naiad queen.

"The delian twins", as I like to call them. Idk I really love their multifaceted natures of protectors and deadly huntress/inflictor of illnesses (with an affinity towards plague). And their familial bond is precious. And I like them both equally, even though I talk about Apollo a bit more ig.

Leto. She's precious. They're always ready to defend each other. Like when Apollo and Artemis killed Niobe's kids because she was disrespectful to Leto. Or when Leto came in to save her son from being thrown in Tartarus by Zeus. Or when baby Artemis helped her mother deliver her brother. She fought for her children and now they fight for her.

Hestia. Too bad there isn't more about her because I relate a lot to the concept of chilling at home and staying away from drama.

Ariadne. Because of her family's tragic history, her healing from it with Dionysus (in most versions) and overall, she's great. Also, it's funny how Theseus wanted to marry a child of Zeus but his ex girlfriend actually succeeded 😂. Speaking of her family tragedy...

Asterius. I bet most adaptation authors don't know who I am referring to 🤣. He's a man-eating monster, yes, but he grew up isolated, trapped and unloved. I feel so bad for him.

Perseus. The GOAT. Partly thanks to @sarafangirlart. I already liked him since I always knew he wanted to save his mother, but he genuinely grew on me since I read her posts. That and when I learned of his war against Dionysus. Extremely underrated story.

Athena. Idk I don't think I need to elaborate on why she's cool.

Hades. In retellings, I often hate him because he's either woobified or made into "Greek Satan" (at least in Disney he's fun), but he's genuinely cool in mythology. Morally gray Hades save me.

Hermes. From birth, he was always a little trickster. I love how many functions he has (messenger of the gods, god of merchants, thieves, communication, also a psychopomp btw). A very energetic and helpful god.

Asclepius. I think I should make a post explaining why he's great because, yeah, I don't talk much about him even though there are things to say (yeah it's because I did a lot of research on him).

And... finally... Dionysus 🤣. Of course he made it in this list. I dedicated a whole essay series about this god, come on !

Honorable mentions : Hector, Andromache, Menelaus, Demeter, Telemachus, Hephaestus, Hippolytus, Danae, Ares and many others.

Favorite myths/plays/poems

I already answered that but can't find the post. So I'll do it again, with some new answers in mind. Basically "the myths with the characters on the list".

It's either because they're that compelling or just hilarious.

The homeric cycle. Ok, an easy one.

The Bacchae by Euripides (mandatory reading if you want to understand Dionysus imo. No excuses).

The frogs by Aristophanes. Because it's funny.

Asclepius' story. Seriously I'll elaborate on it one day.

Hermes' birth story. Him stealing Apollo's cows and Apollo getting mad at his scallywag of a brother 🤣🤣. And then just him winning Apollo over with the lyre.

Pirithous and Theseus getting their asses stuck on a chair (yes this is my title for this story). I love to mock these two, especially Pirithous because... give this man a Darwin award please. No thoughts and no survival instincts in his brain 😂.

Orpheus and Eurydice. Simple but powerful.

The Argonautica. Aka a huge crossover. Seeing more interactions between all these heroes would be awesome (especially if we take every version into account 👀. So many faces...). It's funny how I love the Argonautica but never talk about Jason himself 🤣🤣. The embodiment of the protagonist who's less interesting than the other characters.

Perseus' war against Dionysus. A potential retelling about this myth would go so hard !! Especially since we could get a scary Dionysus. Hopefully it doesn't get ruined :(

Edit : some English mistakes I had to correct.

[greekgodssitcom]

Apollo: You could say I’m a really great athlete

Hyacinthus: [clutching bleeding head] Banned I tell you

[superkooku]

Shout-out to this very informative post (and thank you for citing sources). I myself learned quite a lot from it.

Listen, I'm also against uselessly demonizing Ares, I even have an "Ares defense squad" tag. But it doesn't mean Ares is a perfect little cinnamon roll 😂. He's a god of war, with every implication surrounding war, we shouldn't expect him to be sweet and unproblematic.

What I disagree with is painting him as "evil stupid war dude" (like Satan Hades), to ignore all nuance about his character and title and to paint Athena as a saint in comparison to him.

And also when Wonder Woman made Athena the patron of the Amazons (though DC isn't really pretending to be mythologically accurate, so it's a bit less jarring).

But, on the other hand, there's this post I'd love to add on. We shouldn't use Ares' (apparent) lack of SA myths to demonize other gods like Zeus or Hephaestus.

In the same way Hades and Persephone aren't a perfect uwu couple in comparison to Zeus and Hera, Ares is not the cutesy feminist himbo.

He may be excessively evil in some adaptations, he may have a complicated relationship with Zeus, he's definitely misunderstood but concluding that he's a cinnamon roll is not the way.

Also, just a reminder that Zeus also threatened to throw Apollo in Tartarus and is often the one throwing Hephaestus from Mt. Olympus, instead of Hera.

(and no, this is not a Zeus hate post)

Conclusion : if you deem Greek mythology to be problematic, then the best solution, imo, would be to read something else instead of trying to fundamentally change everything.

And except Hestia (through her passivity), there's absolutely zero Olympian who didn't do some morally dubious (at best) actions and inflict terrible punishments. I'll repeat it again : they're all nuanced cultural figures who need to be treated as such.

ARES IS NOT THE PROTECTOR OF WOMEN IN GREEK MYTHOLOGY.

He is never presented as such in any source, there is no evidence such a role was ever assigned to him in any account, and as far as I'm aware this popular yet unattested assertion is born from the echo-chambers of tumblr. In fact quite the opposite could be argued. TW for sexual assault.

This baffling claim seems to originate from a sort of shallow examination of the way Ares "behaves in myth", and the following arguments are the most frequently presented:

1. Ares protects his daughter Alkippe from assault, and is therefore morally opposed to rape. (Apollodorus 3.180, Pausanias 1.21.4, Suidas "Areios pagos", attributed to Hellanikos)

Curiously this argument is never applied to, for example: Apollo for defending his mother Leto from Tytios, Herakles for defending Hera from Porphyrion (or his wife Deianeira from Nessos), or Zeus for defending his sister Demeter from Iasion (in the versions where he attacks her), among other examples. The multiple accounts of rape of the previously mentioned figures did not conflict with these stories in greek thought: they're defending family members or women otherwise close to them. This sort of behaviour is not uncommon, even in contemporary times, e.g. a warrior has no ethical problem killing men, but would not want his own family or loved ones to be killed. The same goes here for sexual assault.

2. There are no surviving accounts of Ares sexually assaulting anybody.

The idea that the ancient greeks pictured that, among all the gods, Ares was the only one who shied away from committing rape borders on ridiculous. In this case absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

The majority of surviving records of Ares' unions are presented in a genealogical manner, and do not go into details about the nature of said unions. This is by no means uncommon for most mythographers, where most sexual encounters are presented as such, and details of specifics are to be found elsewhere. However, common motifs that are found in other accounts of rape also appear in stories concerning Ares' relationships, e.g. tropes like shape-shifting/the use of disguises, the victim being a huntress, secrecy, and the disposal of the concieved child, are to be found in the stories of Phylonome and Astyoche respectively:

Φυλονόμη Νυκτίμου καὶ Ἀρκαδίας θυγάτηρ ἐκυνήγει σὺν τῇ Ἀρτέμιδι: Ἄρης δ᾽ ἐν σχήματι ποιμένος ἔγκυον ἐποίησεν. ἡ δὲ τεκοῦσα διδύμους παῖδας καὶ φοβουμένη τὸν πατέρα ἔρριψεν εἰς τὸν Ἐρύμανθο

"Phylonome, the daughter of Nyktimos and Arkadia, was wont to hunt with Artemis; but Ares, in the guise of a shepherd, got her with child. She gave birth to twin children and, fearing her father, cast them into the [River] Erymanthos." (Pseudo-Plutarch, Greek and Roman Parallel Stories, 36)

οἳ δ᾽ Ἀσπληδόνα ναῖον ἰδ᾽ Ὀρχομενὸν Μινύειον, τῶν ἦρχ᾽ Ἀσκάλαφος καὶ Ἰάλμενος υἷες Ἄρηος οὓς τέκεν Ἀστυόχη δόμῳ Ἄκτορος Ἀζεΐδαο, παρθένος αἰδοίη ὑπερώϊον εἰσαναβᾶσα Ἄρηϊ κρατερῷ: ὃ δέ οἱ παρελέξατο λάθρῃ: τοῖς δὲ τριήκοντα γλαφυραὶ νέες ἐστιχόωντο.

"And they that dwelt in Aspledon and Orchomenus of the Minyae were led by Ascalaphus and Ialmenus, sons of Ares, whom, in the palace of Actor, son of Azeus, Astyoche, the honoured maiden, conceived of mighty Ares, when she had entered into her upper chamber; for he lay with her in secret" (Homer, Iliad 2. 512 ff)

In neither of these cases is a verb explicitly denoting rape used, though it is heavily implied by the context. The focus of the action is on the conception of sons, the nature of the interaction is secondary.

Other examples are found among the daughters of the river Asopos, who where (and here there's no confusion) ravished and kidnapped by different gods to different parts of the greek world, where they found local lines through children borne to their abductors and serve as local eponyms. Surviving fragments from Corinna of Tanagra tell:

"Asopos went to his haunts . . from you halls . . into woe . . Of these [nine] daughters Zeus, giver of good things, took his [Asopos'] child Aigina . . from her father's [house] . . while Korkyra and Salamis and lovely Euboia were stolen by father Poseidon, and Leto's son is in possession of Sinope and Thespia . . [and Tanagra was seized by Hermes] . . But to Asopos no one was able to make the matter clear, until . . [the seer Akraiphen reveals to him] 'And of your daughters father Zeus, king of all, has three; and Poseidon, ruler of the sea, married three; and Phoibos [Apollon] is master of the beds of two of them, and of one Hermes, good son of Maia. For so did the pair Eros and the Kypris persuade them, that they should go in secret to your house and take your nine daughters." - heavily fragmented papyrus. Corinna, Fragment 654

"For your [Tanagra's] sake Hermes boxed against Ares." Corinna, Fragment 666

It seems that, similarly to the myths of Beroe or Marpessa, the abducted maiden is fought over by two competing "suitors", and though we can infer that the outcome of the story is that Hermes gets to keep Tanagra, apparently by beating Ares at boxing, we don't actually know what happened or how it happened. In any case, Ares does mate with another daughter of Asopos, Harpina, who bears him Oinomaos according to some versions (Paus. 5.22.6) (Stephanus of Byzantium, Ethnica, A125.3) (Diodorus Siculus, Library 4. 73. 1). There is little reason to suppose this encounter wasn't pictured as an abduction like the rest of her sisters.

The blatant statement that each of his affairs was envisioned as consensual is simply not true.

3. He was worshipped under the epithet Gynaicothoinas "feasted by women"

This was a local cult that existed in Tegea, the following reason is given:

There is also an image of Ares in the marketplace of Tegea. Carved in relief on a slab it is called Gynaecothoenas. At the time of the Laconian war, when Charillus king of Lacedaemon made the first invasion, the women armed themselves and lay in ambush under the hill they call today Phylactris. When the armies met and the men on either side were performing many remarkable exploits, the women, they say, came on the scene and put the Lacedaemonians to flight. Marpessa, surnamed Choera, surpassed, they say, the other women in daring, while Charillus himself was one of the Spartan prisoners. The story goes on to say that he was set free without ransom, swore to the Tegeans that the Lacedaemonians would never again attack Tegea, and then broke his oath; that the women offered to Ares a sacrifice of victory on their own account without the men, and gave to the men no share in the meat of the victim. For this reason Ares got his surname. (Paus. 8.48.4-5)

As emphasised by Georgoudi in To Act, Not Submit: Women’s Attitudes in Situations of War in Ancient Greece (part of the highly recommendable collection of essays Women and War in Antiquity), "it is not necessary to see the operation of an invitation in the bestowal of the epithet Γυναικοθοίνας on Ares". The epithet is ambiguous, and can be translated both as "Host of the banquet of women" or "[He who is] invited to the banquet of women". In any case no act of divine intervention occurs, and the main reason for the women's act of devotion lies principally in recognising their decisive role in the routing of the Lakedaimonians. They invite Ares to the banquet, the men are excluded.

Also this a local epithet that isn't found anywhere else in Greece. As such it would be worth reminding that not every Ares is Gynaicothoinas, in the same way not every Zeus is Aithiopian, not every Demeter Erinys, or not every Artemis of Ephesos.

4. He is the patron god of the Amazons

He was considered progenitor of the Amazons because of their proverbial warlike nature and love of battle, the same reason he was associated with other "barbaric" tribes, like the Thracians or the Scythians. In this capacity he was also appointed as a suitable father/ancestor for other violent and savage characters who generally function as antagonists (e.g. Kyknos, Diomedes of Thrace, Tereos of Thrace, Oinomaos, Agrios and Oreios, Phlegyas, Lykos etc.). Also he was by no means the only god connected with the Amazons (they were especially linked to Artemis, see Religious Cults Associated With the Amazons by Florence Mary Bennett, if only for the bibliography).

Similarly Poseidon was considered patron and ancestor of the Phaiakians mainly because of their mastery over the art of seafaring, and was curiously also credited in genealogies as father to monsters and other disreputable figures.

On another note I have found no sources that claim he taught his amazon daughters how to fight, as I've seen often mentioned (though I admit I'd love to be proven wrong on that point).

Finally, the last reason Ares is never portrayed as a protector of women is because of his divine assignation itself:

The uncountable references to his love of bloodshed and man-slaying don't just stop short of the battlefield, but continue on to the conclusion and intended purpose of most waged wars in antiquity: the sacking of the city. The title Sacker of Cities as an epithet of Ares (though it is by no means exclusive to him) is encountered numerous times and in different variations (eg. τειχεσιπλήτης or πτολίπορθος), and the meaning behind the epithet is plain. Though it is hard to summarise without being reductionist, the sacking of a city entails the plundering of all its goods, the slaughtering of its men, and the sistematic raping and enslavement of the surviving women (for the most famous depictions see The Iliad, The Trojan Women or The Women of Trachis, to name only a small few of the literary references). There is little need to emphasise that war as concieved of in ancient greece, especifically the brutal aspects of war Ares is most often associated with, directly entail sexual violence against women as one of its main concerns. The multiple references to Ares being an unloved or disliked deity are because of this, because war is horrifying (not because his daddy is a big old meany who hates him for no reason, Zeus makes very clear the motive for his contempt in the Iliad (5. 889-891): "Do not sit beside me and whine, you double-faced liar. To me you are most hateful of all gods who hold Olympos. Forever quarreling is dear to your heart, wars and battles.")

Ares was only the protector of women inasmuch as he could be averted or repelled (e.g. in this apotropaic chant):

"There is no clash of brazen shields but our fight is with the war god, a war god ringed with the cries of men, a savage god who burns us; grant that he turn in racing course backward out of our country’s bounds, to the great palace of Amphitrite or where the waves of the thracian sea deny the stranger safe anchorage. Whatsoever escapes the night at last the light of day revisits; so smite him, Father Zeus, beneath your thunderbolt, for you are the lord of the lightning, the lightning that carries fire. (Shophocles, Oedipus Tyrannos, 190-202)

~~~~~

All that being said, this is a post about Ares as attested and percieved in ancient sources, made especifically in response to condecending and self-victimising statements about how "uhmmm, actually, in greek mythology Ares was a super-feminist himbo who was worshipped as the protector of women and was hated by his family for no reason, you idiot". It is factually incorrect. HOWEVER, far be it from me to tell anyone how they have to interact with this deity. Be it your retellings, your headcannons or your own personal religious attachments and beliefs towards Ares, those are your own provinces and prerogatives, and not what was being discussed here at all (I personally love retellings where Ares and Aphrodite goof around, or art where he plays with his daughters, or headcannons that showcase his more noble sides, etc.)

~~~~~

I've seen that other people on tumblr have made similar posts, the ones I've seen were by @deathlessathanasia and @en-theos . I have no idea how to link their posts, but they're really good so go check them out on their pages!

[autumnmobile12]

Odysseus and Calypso Were Lovers

As problematic as that sounds because WTF, hear me out because it's complicated and there's a lot to discuss. Trigger warning for sa. Also, not directly Epic: The Musical related; that's a whole other ballpark.

She trapped him on her island!

I'm not denying that nor am I denying how objectively messed up that is.

However, the captor and prisoner trope is one that does crop up in Greek mythology now and then.  The most famous example I can think of is Hades’ kidnapping of Persephone.  I have seen that situation blatantly called rape in the original story, and yet today, modern storytellers do like to revise that myth into a version that makes Demeter out to be an overbearing mother and Persephone's ‘kidnapping’ so to speak becomes an escape.  Personally, I think that is a very graceful way to make a barbaric story a bit more palatable to modern audiences.

So regarding Odysseus’ situation where falling in love with his captor is problematic…my thought process runs as, “Fucking Greek mythology and its weird idea of what constitutes as a love story.”

As a result, I have no serious thoughts on the morality of certain figures of Greek mythology because they frankly come from a time period where the people had a very different culture and set of moral values and ideas on what was acceptable. Therefore, it's futile to judge their stories by my own modern moral compass.

Where in The Odyssey does it say they were lovers?

The main line I can't ignore that strongly implies the nature of their relationship is Odysseus' farewell to Calypso:

“The sun went down and brought the darkness on. They  [Odysseus and Calypso] went inside the hollow cave and took the pleasure of their love, held close together.”  - The Odyssey, Homer, translated by Emily Wilson.

Keep in mind, she’s already told him he’s free to go.  He’s free to build his raft, she’s giving him supplies, and yet he says goodbye this tenderly.  Note the absence of Calypso using magic to compel him. If you cherry-picked this line, you'd find a fond goodbye.

Odysseus’ Tears

A lot of people making the ‘Odysseus/Calypso was a non-consensual situation’ argument like to cite the line that Odysseus cried every day on Ogygia.  And yes, he did weep every day he was there.  But this is the full stanza.

“On the tenth black night, the gods carried me till I reached the island of Ogygia, home of the beautiful and mighty goddess Calypso.  Lovingly she cared for me, vowing to set me free from death and time forever.  But she never swayed my heart.  I stayed for seven years; she gave me clothes like those of gods, but they were always wet with tears.” - The Odyssey, Homer, translated by Emily Wilson.

‘Beautiful and mighty….Lovingly she cared for me….she never swayed my heart.’  He speaks highly of her, not with hate or venom for her delaying him.

In my literature class where we read The Odyssey, the tears line was discussed and largely interpreted as Odysseus’ reaction to all the monsters he’d faced and losing all his crew and friends.  The PTSD of a war veteran.  From the cultural mindset of Ancient Greece, Odysseus was a king, and he failed his people when they all died under his command and he was unable to bring them home.  Similarly, the hero Theseus was once king of Athens.  He was usurped in absentia (Theseus being trapped in the Underworld at the time) and when he returned to his kingdom, he found another man on his throne, was forced to flee, and died a rather ignoble death when a supporter of his usurper shoved him off a cliff.  So Odysseus being a king who let an entire fleet die under his watch is certainly grounds for shame to the point of tears in the eyes of the Ancient Greeks.  And with an entire line-up of men attempting to court his wife and take his place, it drives home the idea that he was replaceable.

Also important to note:  He’s still miserable when he leaves Ogygia.  When he arrives at King Alcinous’ court, he is welcomed, provided food, shelter, and entertainment, but when the king checks in with his heartbroken guest, he pleads with him to tell him what’s wrong, which kickstarts the telling of Odysseus’ journey.

Odysseus was afraid of Calypso!

That said, it's also important to address this concept because this is Odysseus' reaction to the goddess telling him she is sending him on his way to Ithaka:

‘Goddess, your purpose cannot be as you say; you cannot intend to speed me home. You tell me to make myself a raft to cross the great gulf of ocean--a gulf so baffling and so perilous that not even rapid ships will traverse it, steady though they may be and favoured by a fair wind from Zeus. I will not set foot on such a raft unless I am sure of your good will--unless, goddess, you take on yourself to swear a solemn oath not to plot against me any new mischief to my ruin.’ The Odyssey, Homer, translated by Shewring.

His suspicion certainly suggests mistrust and fear that she intends to do him harm, and considering his track record of being hated by deities, that's understandable. This isn't exactly what you'd call a loving relationship. But this also brings up a weird contradiction in the poem. I would 100% say this was a completely non-consensual situation were it not for this line:

His eyes were always tearful; he wept sweet life away, in longing to go back home, since she [Calypso] no longer pleased him. - Wilson.

Not ‘she did not please him.’  She no longer pleased him.  That implies she 'pleased' him at one point and because of that, one could argue Calypso was a mistress and Odysseus eventually tired of her. (Probably long before seven years had passed.)

What Do The Translators Say?

I can't speak for all translators, but in the Emily Wilson translation, she includes a lengthy introduction describing Odysseus' world, the culture of Ancient Greece, the reasoning behind specific English wordage in the translation, etc. In the introduction, she refers to Calypso and Circe as Odysseus' affairs. Not his abusers. He also has a brief flirtation with Princess Nausicaa, the daughter of his final host, King Alcinous. Wilson then goes on to describe how these affairs are not a character failing of Odysseus in comparison to the treatment of Penelope where she is expected to be faithful and how that is indicative of a good woman.

Taking a step back from Greek mythology, consider the actions of King Henry VIII of England. Most historians agree that, for the first few years, the king's relationship with his first wife Katherine of Aragon was unusually good for the times. And yet he was an unfaithful husband, had at least one acknowledged bastard and historians speculate there were more. But while 'indiscretions' such as this were frowned upon in the Tudor Period, Henry VIII did not receive near as much criticism as Queen Katherine would have if she'd had an illegitimate child. If Katherine was 'indiscreet,' that was considered treason because she compromised the legitimacy of the succession and that was cause for a beheading.

Because misogyny. Again, different time, different moral values.

Misogyny in The Odyssey

Whatever one's thoughts on Calypso are, it is incredibly misogynistic of Homer to solely blame her for keeping Odysseus trapped while he conveniently ignores the plot hole that her island is completely surrounded by ocean and we all know that Poseidon was lurking out there just waiting for his shot at vengeance.  Odysseus is barely two stanzas off Calypso’s island before Poseidon goes after him.  It’s almost hilarious how quickly it happens.  The poem says Poseidon was returning from Ethiopia, not that he was there for the whole seven years, and Hermes clearly did not pass along the memo that Odysseus was free to return to Ithaka.  Although I like to imagine it was Zeus who forgot about Poseidon’s grudge against Odysseus, and Hermes, being the mischievous scamp that he is, did not remind him.

If one line in the text says Odysseus/Calypso was consensual while another says otherwise, which is it?

Honestly, I don't think there's a conclusive answer with just The Odyssey. I'm a hobbyist, not an expert, so I do refer to the judgment of translators like Wilson to make that call. If she and other translators say Calypso and Circe were affair partners and I can see the lines in the text to support that, I'll believe it and chalk up the rest as Greek mythology being problematic.

That said, we can also look at the opinions of other Greek poets in their further writings of the mythology:

“And the bright goddess Calypso was joined to Odysseus in sweet love, and bare him Nausithous and Nausinous.” - The Theogony; Of Goddesses and Men, Hesiod, translated by Evelyn-White.

“… after brief pleasure in wedlock with the daughter of Atlas [Calypso], he [Odysseus] dares to set foot in his offhand vessel that never knew a dockyard and to steer, poor wretch…” - Alexandra, Lycophron, translated by Mair.

Both seem to be of the opinion Calypso was Odysseus' lover.

Interestingly, Hesiod also writes in The Catalogues of Women Fragment:

“…of patient-souled Odysseus whom in aftertime Calypso the queenly nymph detained for Poseidon.” - The Catalogues of Women Fragment, Hesiod, translated by Evelyn-White.

The wording ‘detained for Poseidon’ implies Calypso was acting at Poseidon’s command or she was doing the sea god a favor or she possibly didn't have any free will herself whether or not Odysseus stayed on Ogygia. Either way, it does neatly account for Homer's aforementioned misogyny/plot hole.

But if Hesiod and Lycophron's works are not part of The Odyssey, why should we take them seriously?

You don't have to consider them canon. Just because I prefer to consider all mythology canon doesn't mean anyone else does. Just as easily, I could ask why we should take Homer's work seriously even though historians can't even agree whether or not he was a real person.

The truth is, Ancient Greece as we think of it lasted a thousand years.  Their culture/values changed several times and so did their stories to reflect those changes, and those stories continue to evolve to the modern day. Odysseus himself goes through a few different descriptions over the centuries, being described as scheming and even cruel in other works. So I consider modern works like Percy Jackson, Epic: The Musical, Son of Zeus, and so on to be just more cogs in the evolving narrative. Much like how retellings of Hades and Persephone are shifting to circumstances easier to accept by audiences today.

But why would Odysseus be unfaithful to his loving wife?

The loving wife he claimed as payment for helping out King Tyndareus? Yeah...Odysseus and Penelope's relationship may not quite be the undoubted loving one modern retellings make it out to be nor is Odysseus a saint in The Odyssey.

“A blast of wind pushed me [Odysseus] off course towards the Cicones in Ismarus.  I sacked the town and killed the men.  We took their wives and shared their riches equally amongst us.”  - The Odyssey, Homer, translated by Emily Wilson.

Raiding a town unprovoked, killing the men, kidnapping the women, stealing their treasure is not indicative to what we in the modern day consider heroic or good protagonist behavior. Also, at the end of the Trojan War, Queen Hekuba was made a slave and given to Odysseus.

As for the chapter with Circe, Penelope's name isn't even mentioned. Moreover, the wording of the Wilson translation gives the troubling connotation that Circe may have been the one who was assaulted.

Hermes’ instructions to Odysseus are as follows:

"...draw your sharpened sword and rush at her as if you mean to kill her. She will be frightened of you, and will tell you to sleep with her." - Wilson

She'll be frightened of him? Hermes is encouraging Odysseus to render Circe powerless by eating the Moly plant so she can't turn him into a pig, then threaten her with a sword, which does frighten her, and then sleep with her. That line of events is disturbing. Circe is the one who offers to take Odysseus to bed, sure, but there’s a strange man in her house, she’s allegedly afraid according to Hermes, and she’s unable to resort to her usual defense and turn him into a pig as she did with the others.  Under those circumstances, sleeping with an invader is a survival tactic.

However...after Odysseus makes Circe promise to turn his men back, she bathes him and gives him food like a proper Ancient Greek host. Yet before Odysseus accepts the meal, he puts his men first, saying he can't bear to eat until he knows they're well. So Circe turns them back, then Odysseus returns to where the rest of the crew are waiting on the shore. They're all convinced their comrades are dead until Odysseus tells them what transpired and they rejoice. All except suspicious Eurylochus who calls them fools for trusting Odysseus' word based on his previous bad decisions. Odysseus thinks about cutting his head off for speaking that way. Damn, that went from zero to a hundred fast.

But Penelope's name is missing from the story.

Odysseus only thinks of leaving Circe's island when his men speak of returning to their homeland, after which he goes to Circe about the matter, and she instructs him to go to the Underworld.

"That broke my heart, and sitting on the bed I wept, and lost all will to live and see the shining sun." - Wilson

Odysseus and his men all lament the idea of sailing into the land of the dead. So his tears and despair did not start with Calypso. Also, they return to Circe's island after the journey so she can help them make sense of Tiresias' instructions.

But setting all that aside, even when Hermes instructed him on what to do, Odysseus didn't make some grand speech on how he can’t betray his wife.  He doesn’t specifically say he’s crying for Penelope on Calypso’s island.  He doesn’t mention Penelope at all, and when King Alcinous asks him about his sorrow, Odysseus tells his whole story, barely bringing up his wife or his love for her.

So is Odysseus a good guy?

In all, Odysseus is a clever character who is known for using his wits to get out of any situation.  Polyphemus, the Sirens, Scylla, he had a plan.  The idea that he’s suddenly helpless against Calypso and Circe is out of character.  They may be goddesses, but they’re not exactly the heavy hitters of the pantheon, which is why Poseidon could absolutely order a minor sea nymph to stop what she’s doing and hold a man prisoner for him. And while Odysseus spends the entire story being thwarted by the gods, one could say he also thwarts the gods right back by refusing to give up.

Like most Greek heroes, I would say Odysseus is not what we today would call a hero. But when he shares a roster with characters like this:

Zeus:  Serial rapist

Poseidon:  Serial rapist

Hades:  Kidnapped Persephone (setting aside modern interpretations she went with him willingly)

Herakles:  Raped a princess named Auge  (Yes, really.)

Theseus:  Kidnapped Helen of Sparta when she was a child because he wanted to marry a daughter of Zeus, aided and abetted his cousin in an attempt to kidnap Persephone, abandoned Ariadne, etc.

Jason the Argonaut:  Tried to abandon his wife. (I say ‘try’ because he didn’t get the chance. His wife Medea killed the other woman first.)

Hephaistos:  Raped Athena after she refused him.

Achilles:  Murdered a child to prevent a prophecy from coming true.

...Odysseus's atrocities are weirdly tame by comparison. Even the narrative where he kills the infant Prince Astyanax, modern retellings usually give that role to the lesser known Neoptolemus. More on that here.

In the end, it's not necessarily thematically important whether or not Odysseus is good or bad. The core of his character revolves around his cleverness and ability to build and strategize and make his own way in the world he lives in. Rounding this out is Emily Wilson's commentary on the symbolism behind the tree bed,

"In leaving Calypso, Odysseus chooses something that he built with his own mind and hands, rather than something given to him. Whereas Calypso longs to hide, clothe, feed, and possess him, Athena enables Odysseus to construct his own schemes out of the materials she provides." - The Odyssey, Homer, trans. by Emily Wilson, Introduction Pg 64.

So were Odysseus and Calypso lovers?

Based on the above, my opinion is 'Yes they were, but with the caveat they were problematic af.' Because problematic themes like that are pretty par for the course in Greek mythology.

[gingermintpepper]

"…Do you like snakes?" The question is innocent, natural. It sprouts up from the well of Ares' mind and passes through his lips like pollen on a careless breeze. Apollo isn't angry at it. He isn't even a bit surprised. It doesn't stop his instinctual flinch, doesn't stop that phantom scent of venom and stale blood from clogging up his nose. "I'm actually rather afraid of them." Ares looks up from where he's beating his brush into the marble, his frown more a pout as he glares at Apollo, "I thought you couldn't lie? Everyone knows you're not afraid of snakes." He sniffs, annoyed and testy, bangs his brush against the marble again ruining its sable brush-hairs for good this time, "You don't have to make up nonsense to try and make me feel better." Apollo very patiently does not bang Ares' head into the marble for destroying one of his most precious paintbrushes. As a child who has not yet partaken in the hunt, he knows not the skill it takes to capture a mink, nor the labour that goes into plucking their hairs, nor the artistry that comes from binding those fine hairs to a suitable piece of etched birch. Instead, he dips his own paintbrush in the setting salve and pointedly paints in large, obvious and even strokes, "It's not nonsense. I do not like snakes." "But you killed Python." Ares digs into the salve and spills thick globs of it about the floor like a boar at the trough. Apollo graciously notes that next time, he'll endeavour to put old linens down so as to skip the hard work of scraping sealant off his tiles. "You weren't afraid then. You bathed in her blood. You enjoyed it. I felt it."

"Yes," the wet squelch of the salve is as bubbling blood in his ear. He'd shot her full of arrows then flayed her open on their points. Black from head to toe, that's how he'd returned. His hair dark with her venom, his skin soaked in her guts. His smile black with her death. "I suppose I did enjoy it." Apollo puts his paintbrush down, takes a step back to gauge the breadth of work that remains before them. "I do not think I'd enjoy such a thing now." Ares' eyes are hot on his cheek. He's rolling Apollo's words around in his head, contemplating them with a graveness he rarely lets the others observe. Apollo just wishes his gaze wasn't so probing, so snake-like in its intent. Almost predatory. "You can't change what you were born to be, Phoebus. None of us can." "On the contrary," he meets Ares' dark stare - viper versus cobra, two snakes in their little circular pot, "I have it on good authority that change is necessary for living."

[superkooku]

Dionysus' iceberg

This post is what remains of an initially very long rant idea. That means there will probably be a part 2 😏.

Here's the reason for my title :

In theory, you can stop there since my meme pretty much summarizes my complaints. But since I like ranting, I'll continue 😈

The tip of the iceberg

When you think "Dionysus", which words come in mind first ?

Probably "wine", "party", "alcohol" "fun god".

These words are what most people remember about Dionysus. And yes, I'm not going to deny, they fit.

Unfortunately, my problem comes with the fact that 9.5 times out of 10, Dionysus' personality will exclusively revolve around these aspects.

Since the issue is about modern adaptations and perceptions, I'll use a modern term.

I'm sure most of you are familiar with flanderization, right ? If not, the link to TV Tropes' article on the subject is available.

Many adaptations fell into that trap for, I think, every single Olympian.

Hades, god of the dead, lord of the Underworld = Satan, evil death god, darkness and sorrow

Aphrodite, goddess of love and beauty = Superficial bimbo who only cares about her pretty face

Zeus, king of the gods, lord of the sky and thunder = 100% pure God OR more recently : evil king god who constantly abuses women.

The gods are stripped of their complexity to fit simpler and more "digestible" characterizations. It doesn't help that the cultural context surrounding them is also taken away...

But this is about grape boi, right? Well, Dionysus is no exception to that rule. In fact, he might be one of the worst cases.

So far, he was never really portrayed in an "insulting" light, like Apollo in Lore Olympus or Hades in the Percy Jackson movie. Fortunately.

But, from all the popular adaptations I've seen, none of them manage to portray Dionysus ! None ! Does that make them automatically bad ? No, of course. It's just something I noticed.

God of war ? Doesn't appear, only mentioned

Disney ? Don't even try 🤣. Just a drunk goofball. Yes, that includes the fantasia segment and Hercules.

Lore Olympus? Well, he's a baby for 99.99999% of the time, so it doesn't count. But he's still a quiet little Gucci bag for Persephone.

Hades I ? Just a nice guy. But hey ! He can give us useful boons ! And I like his sass.

Maybe he'll do more in Hades II. They're usually more accurate than most, right ? Though that's not a very high bar. And they know about Zagreus ! Surely that's a good sign, right ?

Nevermind...

Here's what all these adaptations tell us :

Dionysus is the god of wine, feasts and parties

He's an Olympian

He likes to get drunk and party 🥳

And that's it.

Again, I'm not blaming anyone, but if the myths stopped with those three points, wouldn't everyone wonder why he's even an Olympian ? I sure did when I was a kid.

We have the god of thunder, the goddess of wisdom and war strategy, god of music/arts/medicine/100 other things, the god of the oceans ! Many cool gods !

And some drunk dude. He's not given any particular power, except the power to stay super passive no matter the stakes ! If the story revolves about epic godly fights (which is often the case), he's absolutely useless.

Heck, Hades II even actively depicts him as a pacifist who can't handle war. While he's not physically a weakling, he sure psychologically is.

Why is this a problem ?

I am not going to beat around the bush: this gives us a very incomplete and incorrect perception of the god.

Even the things that aren't forgotten about him (like his link to wine) aren't explored.

The thing with Hades II (that's the last time I'll mention it) is that it tries to deepen the flanderized version of Dionysus. He's not stupid, but afraid. He drinks to forget his issues.

While this characterization can be very interesting taken separately, we must remember that this isn't an OC, but an interpretation of a cultural figure.

It must be accurate ! While I can accept some liberties, I think that those should mostly be an extension of the original material, not a total deviation.

Dionysus isn't a scared little boi or a stupid drunkard you can manipulate. In fact, that's quite the opposite. And he's not afraid to get his hands dirty.

(even if the "dirt" in question is the blood of his enemies).

Under the surface

Though it's rather "stuff you can find on Wikipedia". Or by reading the myths.

More about it in part 2 of the rant...

It'll be about theater, madness, travels, link between mortality and immortality and... pirates turning into dolphins.

The actual interesting stuff about Dionysus.

Edits :

1. Thanks to @st4riel-the-w1tchling for clarifying the situation about Percy Jackson. I made my own research about BoZ. My opinion is basically still the same. Again, nothing terribly offensive, but nothing that interesting for Dionysus either.

2. I made part 2 a while ago, might as well add it here :

[superkooku]

Let me guess : the "don't bring up any other works" is directed at Epic, isn't it ?

Edit : I read the end of your post. I forgot the Telegony existed 🤣 ! Knowing how you "loooove" the Telegony, I don't think you'll get mad at me for this one.

Odysseus was afraid the entire year on Aeaea in the Odyssey.

Content warnings: Rape, Sexual Coercion, Sexual assault, Sex Work, power dynamics, this will also be long as fuck as I talk too much. This is NOT a "Circe the Goddess Hate Post". I call her out but that's it. I tried to keep this neutral but still making a point (Let me know if I gotta put more)

Lots of lovely folks on here have written great essays on what Calypso did to Odysseus as it's soooo blatantly obvious there. It literally states how he cried every day and how he flinched from Calypso, very straightforward on how he was explicitly raped.

But I've noticed that a lot of people are always iffy about Circe's situation (understandably so, it's not so in your face.) She's usually always mentioned in the "Odysseus never cheated! He was raped!" posts but then the evidence is only ever given against Calypso, and then mentioning how you can't say no or disobey the orders of an immortal and how it was in exchange for freeing his men.

WHICH IS ALL CORRECT!!! But!!!

There ARE immortal/mortal couples who genuinely love each other. Dionysus and Ariadne, and Eros and Psyche are examples. Apollo and Hyacinthus. Psyche indeed becomes immortal eventually and in some versions, both Hyacinthus and Ariadne do too. But even while mortal themselves, their immortal lovers still remained respectful and loving towards them and definitely doted on them. There are definitely power dynamics at play here but there's some nuance.

Odysseus and Circe's relationship, however, is very different. We all know he slept with her at the very least once. And that was in exchange for his men being returned to humans. That was the only time it was explicitly stated. With Calypso, it tells you every night he was enchanted and slept beside her. It was the narrator speaking but Odysseus is the narrator now and it's his story. If you think he lied, this probably won't change your mind anyway.

But even if it was a one-time thing, (which isn't the only interpretation and I will have points that talk about others) then why did he stay a year? What was he doing?

I'm doing a deep dive into the year he spent on Aeaea based on evidence in Book 10 and then the beginning of Book 12. Step by step, and honestly I'm writing this for Tumblr, not as a thesis so I will be a bit more casual but still using sources. To me, it's very obvious that he was uncomfortable throughout the text simply based on the language that is used. But it's very subtle and not an outright statement of "He's been crying every day."

BTW, just so we're clear, this is not a "Circe is the root of all evil, etc." type of post.

This isn't meant to villainize her. She's an immortal being and in mythology that changes things. Everybody is morally gray. I genuinely think if we were to ask her feelings on it, she'd probably be like "Oh, yeah! Turned his men into pigs! Strange little man he was." I don't think she gave a flying fuck.

I just simply get pissed tf off when people think Odysseus was fine. It honestly disturbs me how often I'll go on other websites YouTube and see everyone call him a whore and a womanizer. It's sexism at its finest because 1.) "MaN AlwAyS wAnTs sEx" and 2.) women can't rape/coerce. THIS IS SIMPLY TO LOOK INTO HIS FEELINGS ABOUT IT.

This is also only for Homer's Odyssey, using different translations. If you want to discuss this, (I'd be happy to! Just be nice!) DON'T BRING UP ANY OTHER WORKS.

With all that out of the way, come yell with me 🤗

I've read multiple translations, as I know there's going to be bias depending on who's translating. And having done so, each one has basically the same situations described the same so that's nice for consistency. Also, there are some parts in the story that are vague and that we'll never have answers to.

Odysseus first simply sees the smoke from her chimney and then sends his men in, after drawing lots Eurylochus leads half of the men to check out the house. I mentioned here vaguely how the 2 immortals he sleeps with are both introduced while singing and weaving, which could be seen as an enchantment (which to me is most likely. They both possess magic and are goddesses). So I'm just gonna move past that. Just take a peek and come back or just know that enchantment was likely.

Next, I'll see people often joke on Tumblr about how

"Odysseus says that Polites is his best friend yet only mentions him once!"

I think Odysseus mentions his best friend, the one to jubilantly go in first, to show WHY he would go through with this. How much these comrades mean to him. That's his best friend, and there are approximately 20 others who are now pigs as well. Could you knowingly leave one of your best friends to live a life like that knowing you could've done something?

[...]Circe—and deep inside they heard her singing, lifting her spellbinding voice as she glided back and forth at her great immortal loom, her enchanting web a shimmering glory only goddesses can weave. Polites, captain of armies, took command, the closest, most devoted man I had: ‘Friends, there’s someone inside, plying a great loom, and how she sings—enthralling! The whole house is echoing to her song. Goddess or woman—let’s call out to her now!’ So he urged and the men called out and hailed her. She opened her gleaming doors at once and stepped forth, inviting them all in, and in they went, all innocence.

(Fagles, Book 10)

In the Odyssey, it's never mentioned why she turns people into animals. I think they were turned into pigs because, throughout the Iliad and Odyssey, Odysseus is often associated with boars. His men are associated with him, therefore: 🐖 Piggy. From what we know, the lads were just eating her food. With how much Xenia and hospitality are a large part of the story, they probably thought they were safe. They were GUESTS. This is especially welcome after the Cyclops and the Laestrygonians. And it literally says "All innocence". They were simply naive.

Then Eurylochus runs back, so terrified that he couldn't speak at first. He then begs Odysseus to just leave the men behind. Odysseus has shown that he does TRY to save his men when it is truly not reckless to do so.

But I shot back, ‘Eurylochus, stay right here, eating, drinking, safe by the black ship. I must be off. Necessity drives me on.’

(Fagles, Book 10)

Then the famous warning from Hermes. I've seen folks bring this up when talking about this. YES, he is literally commanded by Hermes to not refuse her if he wants his men back in basically every translation. It sounds like Circe was warned as well. When? We don't know, but it sounds like Hermes didn't pick "sides" here.

Strange that he was still like, "Sleep with each other" to both, because he could've been like, "Circe, there's this guy named Odysseus. When he comes to this island, change his men back." But who knows, maybe it was Circe's idea from the beginning and Hermes went along with it. Just food for thought.

Now here’s your plan of action, step by step. The moment Circe strikes with her long thin wand, you draw your sharp sword sheathed at your hip and rush her fast as if to run her through! She’ll cower in fear and coax you to her bed— but don’t refuse the goddess’ bed, not then, not if she’s to release your friends and treat you well yourself. But have her swear the binding oath of the blessed gods she’ll never plot some new intrigue to harm you, once you lie there naked— never unman you, strip away your courage!’

(Fagles, Book 10)

But that doesn't explain why he was there for a year afterward! Nor if he himself was okay with it, which is what I'm trying to delve into as he wasn't.

Also the knife thing? She's still immortal. It was meant to startle her. Her dad is Helios. Odysseus would've been toast, literally.

Also note this exchange wasn't a "Yippee! Hermes says I'm going to get laid!".

...just approaching the halls of Circe, my heart a heaving storm at every step, paused at her doors, the nymph with lovely braids— I stood and shouted to her there. She heard my voice, she opened the gleaming doors at once and stepped forth, inviting me in, and in I went, all anguish now …

(Fagles, Book 10)

Another translation by Ian Johnston, (they all say the same thing essentially but trying to make a point.)

I continued on to Circe’s home. As I moved on, my heart was turning over many gloomy thoughts. After I had walked up to the gateway                                                of fair-haired Circe’s house, I just stood there and gave a shout. The goddess heard my voice.                      She came out at once, opened her bright doors, and invited me inside. I entered, heart full of misgivings.

HE👏WAS👏SCARED! The tone is solemn and suspenseful. He was just told that without Hermes' help with the root, he wouldn't be able to survive and bring back his men. Circe was dangerous.

He made her swear not to harm him.

Straightaway she began to swear the oath that I required—never, she’d never do me harm—and when she’d finished, then, at last, I mounted Circe’s gorgeous bed …

(Fagles, Book 10)

Please note that she NEVER promised that to his men. His comrades did NOT have moli in their systems. He had no way of truly ensuring their safety in any way from Circe.

He then refuses to eat or speak, literally "lost in grim forebodings". If he "just got laid", then why isn't he happy? Not many men can say that a goddess CHOSE to have sex with them. He did it to get his men turned back. It was an exchange. I don't think Circe is "Evil" so maybe it slipped her mind. Or yes, she could've thought, "Hey, I got what I wanted. He's handsome enough. Homer never shuts up about how hot this guy is He hasn't brought up the pigs yet. I'll just let this play out. Maybe HE forgot. I don't have to do anything." We don't know. But Odysseus probably felt like he got deceived.

"Hey, I did my part of the deal. I slept with you. Now do yours."

She pressed me to eat. I had no taste for food. I just sat there, mind wandering, far away … lost in grim forebodings. As soon as Circe saw me, huddled, not touching my food, immersed in sorrow, she sidled near with a coaxing, winged word: ‘Odysseus, why just sit there, struck dumb, eating your heart out, not touching food or drink? Suspect me of still more treachery? Nothing to fear. Haven’t I just sworn my solemn, binding oath?’

So she asked, but I protested, ‘Circe— how could any man in his right mind endure the taste of food and drink before he’d freed his comrades-in-arms and looked them in the eyes? If you, you really want me to eat and drink, set them free, all my beloved comrades— let me feast my eyes.’ So I demanded.

(Fagles, Book 10)

He doesn't trust her despite what she had told him that he should when they sleep together. He has figured out that while she will not hurt him, his men were not a part of that oath, the men he was trying to protect in the first place.

She is then moved by how they rejoice when they see one another again. While turning people into animals for funsies isn't cool and coercion is fucked up, I think she comes to see this group as not quite friends but I think she did find them entertaining in a way.

This is very strange but I've seen some folks say that since Odysseus was pissed at Eurylochus for still not believing him about Circe is proof that "Oh he was trying to defend her!". Which??? Uh, Eurylochus was literally questioning his leadership as a whole. Calling him reckless and shit. He is captain and he's the King, he can't let that shit slide. The text literally says "Mutinous". Also if I had to sleep with someone I did not want to especially if it was to save my friends and I got called names afterward I'd get fucking pissed too.

Only Eurylochus tried to hold my shipmates back, his mutinous outburst aimed at one and all: ‘Poor fools, where are we running now? Why are we tempting fate?— why stumble blindly down to Circe’s halls? She’ll turn us all into pigs or wolves or lions made to guard that palace of hers—by force, I tell you— just as the Cyclops trapped our comrades in his lair with hotheaded Odysseus right beside them all— thanks to this man’s rashness they died too!

They stay a year. Again it's never stated that Odysseus slept with her that whole time. You could interpret that. (Honestly, I feel Circe would get bored with him? She's a goddess, she's got more important matters than mortal men. And she definitely doesn't love him.)

His men DO have to bring it up that "Odysseus has forgotten his native land." Maybe they thought they could sneak out without her knowing??? I am fucking REACHING but hold on as Telemachus did because he knew Nestor would well, be Nestor and try to coax him with "Have a meal with us! Let me tell you about how badass I used to be in my youth." But to sneak away from a goddess? Without her permission? That won't end too well. Aeolus in the beginning kicked out Odysseus when he tried to ask for another bag of wind. If she didn't want him around, she could literally boot him out. While she didn't force him to stay like Calypso did, she didn't "release" him either.

We don't know if they've been asking for a long time. Odysseus does say to Circe that they have been begging him nonstop, but he could also be saying that to try and convince her. He's good at persuasion. I think while he knew he could rely on her for food, shelter, and good advice, he still didn't feel...SAFE with her. I think he was possibly avoiding her personally.

I think HOW he asks her to leave is important to know as well.

...but I went up to that luxurious bed of Circe’s, hugged her by the knees and the goddess heard my winging supplication: ‘Circe, now make good a promise you gave me once— it’s time to help me home. My heart longs to be home, my comrades’ hearts as well. They wear me down, pleading with me whenever you’re away.’

(Fagles, Book 10)

Throughout all of Homer's works, the characters grasp another's knees when they are desperate and are literally at the other person's mercy. Priam did when begging Achilles for Hector's body back. The man who literally killed his son and was defiling his body by dragging it around. Leodes grabs Odysseus' knees to beg for his life before Ody kills him. If he saw her as a friend, and not a captor, WHY DID HE FEEL THE NEED TO BEG IN ORDER TO LEAVE?! No one, who is in a healthy relationship, has to BEG for permission to leave. Or to "Break up", if you interpret them as still sleeping together.

And even Circe acknowledges that he is there against his will!

‘Royal son of Laertes, Odysseus, old campaigner, stay on no more in my house against your will.

(Fagles, Book 10)

[...]Odysseus, man of many resources, scion of Zeus, son of Laertes, don’t stay here a moment longer against your will

(A.S. Kline, Book 10)

This is probably another reach that you can ignore but the whole "they wear me down", could be trying to appease her. "Look, you're REALLY cool, it's actually my crew that wants to leave hahahah please don't kill them"

I mentioned before how Telemachus snuck away from Nestor but that was simply out of necessity because he needed to go home now. Not rest for the night. NOW. Nestor is just everyone's grandpa. Menelaus kind of talked more but Telemachus is very straight up in "Please I have to go now" and Menelaus immediately got things ready for him. He never has to beg and clasp his knees. Telemachus was never afraid. Menelaus is a fun uncle and Helen is your cool auntie.

Back to Circe! She tells him instructions for the underworld, they were in her bedroom. But that might've been the only way to speak with her. As even Penelope is usually away from the suitors when they are in her halls, Circe may have done the same. The text never states she played hostess physically. If she was hosting in the halls during the day, why did Odysseus wait until night to talk to her? He could've just asked her while she was on her throne in front of everyone. (He did so with the Phaeacians)

Or maybe he went alone because she only swore an oath to not harm him and so he didn't want his men near if she decided she didn't want to let them go. I could be missing something here so feel free to say something. Idk if this was a pride thing on how "I don't want others to see me beg".

She has info he needs in order to go home as well. She tells him to go to the Underworld.

She gave him new fine clothes and put on pretty clothes herself but that doesn't mean they had sex. Nausicaa gave him nice clothes as well but he never slept with her.

Then he leaves. Immediately. Not even doing a headcount as he didn't realize one of his men had died. (That was negligence on his part but he wanted out) He booked it, to the UNDERWORLD BY THE WAY. Circe even had to sneak the animals he needed for the sacrifice. Odysseus even basically said "She's a goddess. She can do things mortals can't" at the end of the book. And it almost feels...Numb? Solemn? Neutral? Gives a "It is what it is" vibe.

But Circe got to the dark hull before us, tethered a ram and black ewe close by— slipping past unseen. Who can glimpse a god who wants to be invisible gliding here and there?

(Fagles, Book 10)

She’d slipped past us with ease, for who can see a god move back and forth, if she has no desire to be observed?

(Johnston, Book 10)

She's a goddess. She has magic. She can do whatever the fuck she wants.

NOW ON TO BOOK 12!!! That was long! GET A SNACK AND WATER! LUCKILY THIS'LL BE SHORTER!

In Book 11, Odysseus swears, upon all his loved ones in Ithaca, to Elpenor that he'd give him a proper burial as he's been "unwept, unburied". So in Book 12, he sails back to Aeaea to fulfill his promise.

But you know what's funny to me?

He didn't tell Circe he was there.

He didn't even go to greet Circe himself. He sent his men to go get Elpenor's body.

The biggest clue that he didn't love/trust her is that if she was his "Affair partner" then why not go see her for "one last night together"?

SHE came out herself and pulled him aside to know what happened and then gave more advice.

I dispatched some men to Circe’s halls to bring the dead Elpenor’s body. [...]

Nor did our coming back from Death escape Circe— she hurried toward us, decked in rich regalia, handmaids following close with trays of bread and meats galore and glinting ruddy wine. [...]

But Circe, taking me by the hand, drew me away from all my shipmates there and sat me down and lying beside me probed me for details

(Fagles, Book 12)

In every translation, it talks about how he sits, and she lounges/lies down. That's not sex 🙃 In some translations, it even says he tried to be with his shipmates but she pulled him away!

So we lay down and slept beside our ship’s stern cables. But Circe took me by the hand and led me away, some distance from the crew. She made me sit, while she stretched out beside me on the ground. 

(Johnston, Book 12)

Then, she gives advice about the sirens, Charybdis, Scylla, and her father's Cattle. He tries to ask if he could save all his men. She scolds him for even thinking he could try. He again books it out of there.

I think we all know it wasn't "love". But I think a lot of people think Odysseus was willing and happy with whatever this was. "Friends with Benefits", if you will. I guess you could see it that way but I will say that makes me feel itchy with the whole power dynamic and fear. I don't think folks who have that arrangement have to beg on their knees to ask if they can leave though.

I mean the entirety of Book 10 gives me the vibes of "Laughing uncomfortably because you don't want to upset the other person". To just grin and bear it.

A lot of this was just putting the text here and picking it apart step by step. What you do with this is up to you. It's rambling while banging pots and pans together.

Maybe you see him as drugged the entire year and still sleeping together, as the moli "wore off". Even then, just because her magic can't affect him, there are plenty of natural concoctions that can be created that can affect mortals.

Maybe you see the entire year as sex work in exchange for shelter and food.

Maybe he was just alongside his men the whole time under her roof and was avoiding her after the exchange. After he got asked by his men to finally leave, he would start to walk up to that room only to freeze and turn around, thinking "One more day won't hurt. Should wait until I know she's in a sympathetic mood".

I beg of you, however, PLEASE understand that there was fear and coercion throughout his entirety on Aeaea. He wasn't staying to get laid. While there is so much going on and too many things that are left vague to really know exactly what happened, it is consistent that he was scared/numb. Lots of people go through with things they don't really want to do just to appease others. There are plenty of situations of sexual trauma where one person goes through something and the other has no idea the other person isn't okay. ESPECIALLY WHEN SOMEONE CAN HARM THE PEOPLE YOU CARE ABOUT AT ANY MOMENT!

Sexual trauma is a very complicated thing and while he was scared, he definitely wasn't as traumatized by her as he was by Calypso. Calypso was a torturous hell while Circe was a year of walking on eggshells. Not comparable but I still think it should be acknowledged. It's wild because I read the Odyssey and kept thinking "Y'all are calling the sex slave a cheater? The guy who slept with a goddess to get his men back? The ultimate simp apparently doesn't love his wife??"

Things I'm adding that shouldn't affect the argument as it is not in the Odyssey but I want to mention as it's a "fun fact": Odysseus' dad was an Argonaut. Laertes probably met Circe as well, (or knew of her) with the whole purifying thing and maybe Odysseus heard his dad tell stories of her. Later myths also have Circe with the habit of turning her crushes (or their lovers) into something with Scylla and Picus.

In conclusion, Yeah, he was afraid of her. At least to an extent. And don't pull the whole "Ancient men didn't get raped". Male victims exist and deserve compassion for what was done to them and women are capable of sexual abuse. If you think otherwise, you are not a true feminist and Fuck you. I said in the beginning this'll be casual and I don't wanna write a fancy ending. You can still think Circe is neat but you have to know that this was fucked up.

If you think a lot of this is bullshit or wanna give more context or wish to yell with me but still know he wasn't alright on Aeaea, cool. If you want to point out mistakes or something I should keep in mind with interpretations then feel free to say so but give text evidence. If you try and bring up the Telegony and/or Madeline Miller's Circe, fuck clean off. This is Homer. If you call Odysseus a whore and not the malewife he canonically is I'll start biting. 😤

[averagecontentenjoyer121]

Random shower thought:

Hypnos, from Greek mythology, is kinda like Santa Claus but instead of being presents to nice kids he brings sleep to people

And Thantos, his brother, is like Krampus, if instead of kidnapping naughty kids he took those whose time was up.

[gingermintpepper]

drop the link on that fic of Zeus being a good dad?

Absolutely my friend!

As you can see, it's called Trials of Fatherhood by the lovely @z-eusie and in-between my agonies and right now, she's actually updated the fic and now the Apollo chapter is live!! Everyone should go read this fic, actually! It's a wonderful little compilation of moments that allow for showing both the ugliness and beauty of the gods when taken from a nuanced, compassionate perspective and it's always been one of my favourites to go back to every now and then just because of how fond I am of it. I'm especially fond of the Athena and Dionysus chapters myself but I hope everyone finds their favourite one. <33

[superkooku]

Question about mythology inspired stories and creative liberties

I'm asking this because I plan to write my own fic from an established Greek myth and kinda want a second opinion. I'm writing for myself in order to train and have fun, no publishing plan.

Since I barely started, I won't ask anyone to beta-read it (I don't know if I'll even show it on the net). But I'd like to have a second opinion, or rather multiple ones.

I'm a bit embarrassed because I don't usually post about my projects but I decided to try.

The myth I chose isn't told in one theater play or a poem, but mentioned in sources. So that lets me room to make a story out of it, to fill in the holes and unexplained parts. Like I'd want to add character interactions that didn't take place, or themes or smth.

But I know the myth is about a very important established figure and I don't want to mangle the original story or lose the meaning.

Even though I won't make something as extreme as "it's in USA now", "Perseus X Medusa" or "Odysseus stabs Poseidon with his trident" (lol Epic 🤣), I'd still like to write the thing while keeping the story compelling and with some ✨ancient Greek authenticity✨.

So I'm asking you for advice so I can have a general direction.

(also is it okay to pull stuff from latin sources when the Greek ones doesn't provide a contradicting answer ?)

And since I love to complain, it would kinda be hypocritical not to make any effort myself 😅

Tagging : @katerinaaqu @margaretkart @nysus-temple @sarafangirlart @dootznbootz @aliciavance4228 and anyone else who'd like to provide an opinion on this.

(obviously you don't have to answer but I'm curious)

Edit : just to be less vague, it's about Asclepius.