#lycophron

[autumnmobile12]

Odysseus and Calypso Were Lovers

As problematic as that sounds because WTF, hear me out because it's complicated and there's a lot to discuss. Trigger warning for sa. Also, not directly Epic: The Musical related; that's a whole other ballpark.

She trapped him on her island!

I'm not denying that nor am I denying how objectively messed up that is.

However, the captor and prisoner trope is one that does crop up in Greek mythology now and then.  The most famous example I can think of is Hades’ kidnapping of Persephone.  I have seen that situation blatantly called rape in the original story, and yet today, modern storytellers do like to revise that myth into a version that makes Demeter out to be an overbearing mother and Persephone's ‘kidnapping’ so to speak becomes an escape.  Personally, I think that is a very graceful way to make a barbaric story a bit more palatable to modern audiences.

So regarding Odysseus’ situation where falling in love with his captor is problematic…my thought process runs as, “Fucking Greek mythology and its weird idea of what constitutes as a love story.”

As a result, I have no serious thoughts on the morality of certain figures of Greek mythology because they frankly come from a time period where the people had a very different culture and set of moral values and ideas on what was acceptable. Therefore, it's futile to judge their stories by my own modern moral compass.

Where in The Odyssey does it say they were lovers?

The main line I can't ignore that strongly implies the nature of their relationship is Odysseus' farewell to Calypso:

“The sun went down and brought the darkness on. They  [Odysseus and Calypso] went inside the hollow cave and took the pleasure of their love, held close together.”  - The Odyssey, Homer, translated by Emily Wilson.

Keep in mind, she’s already told him he’s free to go.  He’s free to build his raft, she’s giving him supplies, and yet he says goodbye this tenderly.  Note the absence of Calypso using magic to compel him. If you cherry-picked this line, you'd find a fond goodbye.

Odysseus’ Tears

A lot of people making the ‘Odysseus/Calypso was a non-consensual situation’ argument like to cite the line that Odysseus cried every day on Ogygia.  And yes, he did weep every day he was there.  But this is the full stanza.

“On the tenth black night, the gods carried me till I reached the island of Ogygia, home of the beautiful and mighty goddess Calypso.  Lovingly she cared for me, vowing to set me free from death and time forever.  But she never swayed my heart.  I stayed for seven years; she gave me clothes like those of gods, but they were always wet with tears.” - The Odyssey, Homer, translated by Emily Wilson.

‘Beautiful and mighty….Lovingly she cared for me….she never swayed my heart.’  He speaks highly of her, not with hate or venom for her delaying him.

In my literature class where we read The Odyssey, the tears line was discussed and largely interpreted as Odysseus’ reaction to all the monsters he’d faced and losing all his crew and friends.  The PTSD of a war veteran.  From the cultural mindset of Ancient Greece, Odysseus was a king, and he failed his people when they all died under his command and he was unable to bring them home.  Similarly, the hero Theseus was once king of Athens.  He was usurped in absentia (Theseus being trapped in the Underworld at the time) and when he returned to his kingdom, he found another man on his throne, was forced to flee, and died a rather ignoble death when a supporter of his usurper shoved him off a cliff.  So Odysseus being a king who let an entire fleet die under his watch is certainly grounds for shame to the point of tears in the eyes of the Ancient Greeks.  And with an entire line-up of men attempting to court his wife and take his place, it drives home the idea that he was replaceable.

Also important to note:  He’s still miserable when he leaves Ogygia.  When he arrives at King Alcinous’ court, he is welcomed, provided food, shelter, and entertainment, but when the king checks in with his heartbroken guest, he pleads with him to tell him what’s wrong, which kickstarts the telling of Odysseus’ journey.

Odysseus was afraid of Calypso!

That said, it's also important to address this concept because this is Odysseus' reaction to the goddess telling him she is sending him on his way to Ithaka:

‘Goddess, your purpose cannot be as you say; you cannot intend to speed me home. You tell me to make myself a raft to cross the great gulf of ocean--a gulf so baffling and so perilous that not even rapid ships will traverse it, steady though they may be and favoured by a fair wind from Zeus. I will not set foot on such a raft unless I am sure of your good will--unless, goddess, you take on yourself to swear a solemn oath not to plot against me any new mischief to my ruin.’ The Odyssey, Homer, translated by Shewring.

His suspicion certainly suggests mistrust and fear that she intends to do him harm, and considering his track record of being hated by deities, that's understandable. This isn't exactly what you'd call a loving relationship. But this also brings up a weird contradiction in the poem. I would 100% say this was a completely non-consensual situation were it not for this line:

His eyes were always tearful; he wept sweet life away, in longing to go back home, since she [Calypso] no longer pleased him. - Wilson.

Not ‘she did not please him.’  She no longer pleased him.  That implies she 'pleased' him at one point and because of that, one could argue Calypso was a mistress and Odysseus eventually tired of her. (Probably long before seven years had passed.)

What Do The Translators Say?

I can't speak for all translators, but in the Emily Wilson translation, she includes a lengthy introduction describing Odysseus' world, the culture of Ancient Greece, the reasoning behind specific English wordage in the translation, etc. In the introduction, she refers to Calypso and Circe as Odysseus' affairs. Not his abusers. He also has a brief flirtation with Princess Nausicaa, the daughter of his final host, King Alcinous. Wilson then goes on to describe how these affairs are not a character failing of Odysseus in comparison to the treatment of Penelope where she is expected to be faithful and how that is indicative of a good woman.

Taking a step back from Greek mythology, consider the actions of King Henry VIII of England. Most historians agree that, for the first few years, the king's relationship with his first wife Katherine of Aragon was unusually good for the times. And yet he was an unfaithful husband, had at least one acknowledged bastard and historians speculate there were more. But while 'indiscretions' such as this were frowned upon in the Tudor Period, Henry VIII did not receive near as much criticism as Queen Katherine would have if she'd had an illegitimate child. If Katherine was 'indiscreet,' that was considered treason because she compromised the legitimacy of the succession and that was cause for a beheading.

Because misogyny. Again, different time, different moral values.

Misogyny in The Odyssey

Whatever one's thoughts on Calypso are, it is incredibly misogynistic of Homer to solely blame her for keeping Odysseus trapped while he conveniently ignores the plot hole that her island is completely surrounded by ocean and we all know that Poseidon was lurking out there just waiting for his shot at vengeance.  Odysseus is barely two stanzas off Calypso’s island before Poseidon goes after him.  It’s almost hilarious how quickly it happens.  The poem says Poseidon was returning from Ethiopia, not that he was there for the whole seven years, and Hermes clearly did not pass along the memo that Odysseus was free to return to Ithaka.  Although I like to imagine it was Zeus who forgot about Poseidon’s grudge against Odysseus, and Hermes, being the mischievous scamp that he is, did not remind him.

If one line in the text says Odysseus/Calypso was consensual while another says otherwise, which is it?

Honestly, I don't think there's a conclusive answer with just The Odyssey. I'm a hobbyist, not an expert, so I do refer to the judgment of translators like Wilson to make that call. If she and other translators say Calypso and Circe were affair partners and I can see the lines in the text to support that, I'll believe it and chalk up the rest as Greek mythology being problematic.

That said, we can also look at the opinions of other Greek poets in their further writings of the mythology:

“And the bright goddess Calypso was joined to Odysseus in sweet love, and bare him Nausithous and Nausinous.” - The Theogony; Of Goddesses and Men, Hesiod, translated by Evelyn-White.

“… after brief pleasure in wedlock with the daughter of Atlas [Calypso], he [Odysseus] dares to set foot in his offhand vessel that never knew a dockyard and to steer, poor wretch…” - Alexandra, Lycophron, translated by Mair.

Both seem to be of the opinion Calypso was Odysseus' lover.

Interestingly, Hesiod also writes in The Catalogues of Women Fragment:

“…of patient-souled Odysseus whom in aftertime Calypso the queenly nymph detained for Poseidon.” - The Catalogues of Women Fragment, Hesiod, translated by Evelyn-White.

The wording ‘detained for Poseidon’ implies Calypso was acting at Poseidon’s command or she was doing the sea god a favor or she possibly didn't have any free will herself whether or not Odysseus stayed on Ogygia. Either way, it does neatly account for Homer's aforementioned misogyny/plot hole.

But if Hesiod and Lycophron's works are not part of The Odyssey, why should we take them seriously?

You don't have to consider them canon. Just because I prefer to consider all mythology canon doesn't mean anyone else does. Just as easily, I could ask why we should take Homer's work seriously even though historians can't even agree whether or not he was a real person.

The truth is, Ancient Greece as we think of it lasted a thousand years.  Their culture/values changed several times and so did their stories to reflect those changes, and those stories continue to evolve to the modern day. Odysseus himself goes through a few different descriptions over the centuries, being described as scheming and even cruel in other works. So I consider modern works like Percy Jackson, Epic: The Musical, Son of Zeus, and so on to be just more cogs in the evolving narrative. Much like how retellings of Hades and Persephone are shifting to circumstances easier to accept by audiences today.

But why would Odysseus be unfaithful to his loving wife?

The loving wife he claimed as payment for helping out King Tyndareus? Yeah...Odysseus and Penelope's relationship may not quite be the undoubted loving one modern retellings make it out to be nor is Odysseus a saint in The Odyssey.

“A blast of wind pushed me [Odysseus] off course towards the Cicones in Ismarus.  I sacked the town and killed the men.  We took their wives and shared their riches equally amongst us.”  - The Odyssey, Homer, translated by Emily Wilson.

Raiding a town unprovoked, killing the men, kidnapping the women, stealing their treasure is not indicative to what we in the modern day consider heroic or good protagonist behavior. Also, at the end of the Trojan War, Queen Hekuba was made a slave and given to Odysseus.

As for the chapter with Circe, Penelope's name isn't even mentioned. Moreover, the wording of the Wilson translation gives the troubling connotation that Circe may have been the one who was assaulted.

Hermes’ instructions to Odysseus are as follows:

"...draw your sharpened sword and rush at her as if you mean to kill her. She will be frightened of you, and will tell you to sleep with her." - Wilson

She'll be frightened of him? Hermes is encouraging Odysseus to render Circe powerless by eating the Moly plant so she can't turn him into a pig, then threaten her with a sword, which does frighten her, and then sleep with her. That line of events is disturbing. Circe is the one who offers to take Odysseus to bed, sure, but there’s a strange man in her house, she’s allegedly afraid according to Hermes, and she’s unable to resort to her usual defense and turn him into a pig as she did with the others.  Under those circumstances, sleeping with an invader is a survival tactic.

However...after Odysseus makes Circe promise to turn his men back, she bathes him and gives him food like a proper Ancient Greek host. Yet before Odysseus accepts the meal, he puts his men first, saying he can't bear to eat until he knows they're well. So Circe turns them back, then Odysseus returns to where the rest of the crew are waiting on the shore. They're all convinced their comrades are dead until Odysseus tells them what transpired and they rejoice. All except suspicious Eurylochus who calls them fools for trusting Odysseus' word based on his previous bad decisions. Odysseus thinks about cutting his head off for speaking that way. Damn, that went from zero to a hundred fast.

But Penelope's name is missing from the story.

Odysseus only thinks of leaving Circe's island when his men speak of returning to their homeland, after which he goes to Circe about the matter, and she instructs him to go to the Underworld.

"That broke my heart, and sitting on the bed I wept, and lost all will to live and see the shining sun." - Wilson

Odysseus and his men all lament the idea of sailing into the land of the dead. So his tears and despair did not start with Calypso. Also, they return to Circe's island after the journey so she can help them make sense of Tiresias' instructions.

But setting all that aside, even when Hermes instructed him on what to do, Odysseus didn't make some grand speech on how he can’t betray his wife.  He doesn’t specifically say he’s crying for Penelope on Calypso’s island.  He doesn’t mention Penelope at all, and when King Alcinous asks him about his sorrow, Odysseus tells his whole story, barely bringing up his wife or his love for her.

So is Odysseus a good guy?

In all, Odysseus is a clever character who is known for using his wits to get out of any situation.  Polyphemus, the Sirens, Scylla, he had a plan.  The idea that he’s suddenly helpless against Calypso and Circe is out of character.  They may be goddesses, but they’re not exactly the heavy hitters of the pantheon, which is why Poseidon could absolutely order a minor sea nymph to stop what she’s doing and hold a man prisoner for him. And while Odysseus spends the entire story being thwarted by the gods, one could say he also thwarts the gods right back by refusing to give up.

Like most Greek heroes, I would say Odysseus is not what we today would call a hero. But when he shares a roster with characters like this:

Zeus:  Serial rapist

Poseidon:  Serial rapist

Hades:  Kidnapped Persephone (setting aside modern interpretations she went with him willingly)

Herakles:  Raped a princess named Auge  (Yes, really.)

Theseus:  Kidnapped Helen of Sparta when she was a child because he wanted to marry a daughter of Zeus, aided and abetted his cousin in an attempt to kidnap Persephone, abandoned Ariadne, etc.

Jason the Argonaut:  Tried to abandon his wife. (I say ‘try’ because he didn’t get the chance. His wife Medea killed the other woman first.)

Hephaistos:  Raped Athena after she refused him.

Achilles:  Murdered a child to prevent a prophecy from coming true.

...Odysseus's atrocities are weirdly tame by comparison. Even the narrative where he kills the infant Prince Astyanax, modern retellings usually give that role to the lesser known Neoptolemus. More on that here.

In the end, it's not necessarily thematically important whether or not Odysseus is good or bad. The core of his character revolves around his cleverness and ability to build and strategize and make his own way in the world he lives in. Rounding this out is Emily Wilson's commentary on the symbolism behind the tree bed,

"In leaving Calypso, Odysseus chooses something that he built with his own mind and hands, rather than something given to him. Whereas Calypso longs to hide, clothe, feed, and possess him, Athena enables Odysseus to construct his own schemes out of the materials she provides." - The Odyssey, Homer, trans. by Emily Wilson, Introduction Pg 64.

So were Odysseus and Calypso lovers?

Based on the above, my opinion is 'Yes they were, but with the caveat they were problematic af.' Because problematic themes like that are pretty par for the course in Greek mythology.

[dilutedh2so4]

Oenone had the gift of prophecy, she knew what would happen from the start, and yet she still loved Paris for the time she had with him. The main reason she sent out Corythus (to guide the Achaeans to Troy / to plot against Helen / to seduce her) is because her father had taunted her about having “lost” Paris to a “more beautiful” woman.

It varies with her intent in not healing her husband (Lycophron says his wound was incurable; Parthenius makes her still set out to save him just after rejecting the messenger; Quintus gives her that whole speech wholeheartedly spurning him; Conon has her praying for him to be wounded and forced to come back to her) yet the stories all end the same. After hearing of Paris’ demise, Oenone ends her life - out of grief, or regret, or both. Morbidly, this is the one of the few consistent things about her portrayals.

Oenone loved Paris even after all he had done, that she would go so far as to lose her will to live when he died.

[gwydpolls]

Time Travel Question 17: The Library of Alexandria (Miscellaneous Edition)

I welcome your suggestions for both Library of Alexandria and other lost works of World Literature and History, as there will be future polls.

[bayouette]

Calling yourself an ancient Greek mythology lover without actually reading ancient texts only works if you are younger than like thirteen. If you are getting all of your myth second-hand from Rick Riordan, Madeline Miller, and Lore Olympus... read some fragments!

[aristoteliancomplacency]

‘the father of Agapenor was Ancaeus (son of the Arcadian Lycurgus), who took part in the Calydonian boar-hunt, and was killed by the boar. Lycophron seems to confuse him with the other Ancaeus (son of Poseidon), a cultivator of vines, to whom it was foretold that he should never drink the juice of the vines which he was planting. Cup in hand at the vintage, he laughed to scorn the prophet, who replied: πολλà μετα��ù πέλει κύλικος καὶ χειλεος ἄκρου . At that moment news came that a boar was devastating the vinyard, and Ancaeus, leaving the cup untasted, rushed to attack it, and was pierced by its tusk.’

Jeeeeze Lycophron. Can’t believe you mixed up the Ancaeus who got mauled by a boar with the other Ancaeus who got mauled by a boar. Rookie fucking mistake.

[apollosgiftofprophecy]

Statistics of Apollo's Lovers

I was wondering just how unfortunate of a love-life our boy Apollo had, so - as one does - I did the research, math, and writing of said love-life.

such is the life of an adhd teen :)

In total, there are 59 people on this list. I have them separated into eight groups; Immortal, Immortal & Rejected, Lived, Died, Rejected & Died, Rejected & Cursed, Rejected & Lived, and who were Rejected by Apollo

Disclaimer: I am not a historian nor an expert in Greek Mythology, I am just a very invested nerd in Mythology, and in Apollo's mythology in general, and got curious about what his rap sheet actually looks like.

Sidenote: There will be some "lovers" not on this list. Reasons being;

No actual literary sources behind them

Said literary sources are dubious at best

Not enough information is given about the nature of their relationship to make an accurate take

So if somebody isn't on this list, it's because of one of those three reasons. Although there is still a chance I missed somebody! :)

Also, no RRverse lovers include in this list. Sorry my fellow ToA fans.

*I am currently missing about 4 other lovers, and will get them on here ASAP. Their inclusion, however, will not change the overall conclusion. 👍

(Edited 08/15/24 - ALL SECTIONS SOURCED)

Let's begin! :D

Immortal Lovers

Calliope: muse of epic poetry. Mother of Hymenaios and Ialemus (Pindar's 3rd Threnos) by Apollo.

Clio: muse of history

Erato: muse of love poetry

Euterpe: muse of music

Polyhymnia: muse of hymns/sacred poetry

Melpomene: muse of tragedy

Thalia: muse of comedy. Mother of the Corybantes (The Bibliotheca by Pseudo-Apollodorus) by Apollo.

Terpsichore: muse of dance

Urania: muse of astronomy

Boreas: the North Wind. The Boreads called Apollo "beloved of our sire" in Apollonius of Rhodes's Argonautica.

10 lovers total here.

9 Female, 1 Male

Immortal & Rejected

Hestia: goddess of the Hearth (Hymn to Aphrodite)

1 Interest. Female.

Lovers Who Lived:

Branchus: mortal shepherd, gifted prophecy (Conon's Narrations 33 & Callimachus's Iambus)

Rhoeo: mortal princess, eventually married an apprentice of Apollo (Diodorus Siculus's Bibliotheca historica 5.62 and Tzetzes on Lycophron 570)

Ourea: demigod daughter of Poseidon, dated Apollo during his punishment with Laomedon; had a son named Ileus, after the city of Troy (Hesiod's Catalogues of Women Fragment 83)

Evadne: nymph daughter of Poseidon, Apollo sent Eileithyia & (in some texts) the Fates to aid in their son's birth (Pindar's Olympian Ode 6)

Thero: great-granddaughter of Heracles, described as "beautiful as moonbeams" (Pausanias's Description of Greece 9)

Cyrene: mortal princess-turned-nymph queen, kick-ass lion wrangler, and mother of two of Apollo's sons - Aristaeus (a god) and Idmon (powerful seer) (Pindar's Pythian Ode 9.6 ff. and Nonnus's Dionysiaca and Callimachus's Hymn to Apollo 85)

Admetus: mortal king, took great care of Apollo during his second punishment, Apollo wingmanned him for Alcestis's hand - basically Apollo doted on him <3 (Callimachus's Hymn II to Apollo and Apollodorus's Bibliotheca 1.9.15 and Hyginus's Fabulae 50–51, and also written about by Ovid and Servius)

Hecuba: queen of Troy, together they had Troilus.

It was foretold that if Troilus lived to adulthood, Troy wouldn't fall - unfortunately, Achilles murdered Troilus in Apollo's temple. When the Achaeans burned Troy down, Apollo rescued Hecuba and brought her to safety in Lycia. (Stesichorus's Fr.108)

Hyrie/Thyrie: mortal. mothered a son by Apollo. Their son, Cycnus, attempted to kill himself after some shenanigans and his mother attempted the same. Apollo turned them into swans to save their lives. (Antoninus Liberalis's Metamorphoses 12 and Ovid's Metamorphoses 7.350)

Dryope: mortal. had a son named Amphissus with Apollo, who was a snake at the time. Later turned into a lotus flower, but it had nothing to do with Apollo so she's still on this list. (noncon; written by Ovid in Metamorphoses 8 CE/AD and later by Antoninus Liberalis in his own Metamorphoses sometime between 100-300 CE/AD)

Creusa: mortal queen. had a son named Ion with Apollo (Euripides's Ion). Please check out @my-name-is-apollo's post for more details because they make some good points about what's considered "rape" in Ancient Greece. I expand on this further at the end of the post.

Melia: Oceanid nymph. Had a son w/h Apollo named Tenerus. (Pausanias's Descriptions of Greece 9.10.5–6)

Melia was said to be kidnapped, and her brother found her with Apollo. He set fire to Apollo's temple in an effort to get her back, but was killed. Melia and Apollo had two kids - but here's the interesting part. Melia was highly worshiped in Thebes, where her brother found her. She was an incredibly important figure in Thebes, especially when connected with Apollo. She and Apollo were essentially the parents of Thebes.

As I read over their story, it sounded like (to me, at least. it's okay if you think otherwise!) that Melia just absconded/eloped with Apollo.

Was kidnapping an equivalent to assault back then? Perhaps. But it's still debated on whenever or not that's true. However, one thing I've noticed reading up on these myths is that when Apollo does do something unsavory, the text says so.

It never says anything about Apollo doing anything to Melia. Her father and brother believe she was kidnapped, but, like mentioned previously, it seems far much more likely that she just ran off with her boyfriend or something.

But that's just my interpretation.

Moving on! :)

Iapis: a favorite lover. Apollo wanted to teach him prophecy, the lyre, ect. but Iapis just wanted to heal :) so Apollo taught him healing :) (Smith 1873, s.v. Iapis)

Aethusa: daughter of Poseidon & the Pleiad Alcyone. Mother of Linus and Eleuther. She is the great-great grandmother of Orpheus. (Apollodorus's Bibliotheca 3.10.1 and Pausanias's Descriptions of Greece 9.20.2 and Suida, s.v. Homer's Of the Origin of Homer and Hesiod and their Contest, Fragment 1.314)

Acacallis: daughter of King Minos. there's a lot of variation on whether or not she had kids with Hermes or Apollo. Some say she had a kid with each. (Stephanus of Byzantium, s.v. Kydōnia (Κυδωνία and Scholia on Apollonius Rhodius, 4.1492)

Chrysothemis: nymph queen who won the oldest contest of the Pythian Games - the singing of a hymn to Apollo. She had three daughters, and one of them is said to be Apollo's. (Pausanias's Descriptions of Greece 10.7.2 and Hyginus's De Astronomica 2.25)

Corycia: naiad. had a son with Apollo. the Corycian Cave north of Delphi is named after her (Hyginus's Fabulae 161)

Leuconoe (also Choine or Philonis): daughter of Eosphorus, god of the planet Venus, and mother of the bard Philammon. (Hyginus's Fabulae 161) She was killed by Diana for her hubris.

Melaena (also Thyia or Kelaino): mother of Delphos, member of prophetic Thriae of Delphi. Priestess of Dionysus. (Herodotus's Histories 7.178.1)

Othreis: mothered Phager by Apollo, and later Meliteus by Zeus. (Antoninus Liberalis's Metamorphoses 13)

Stilbe: mother of Lapithus and Aineus by Apollo. (Diodorus Siculus's Library of History 4.69.1 and Scholia on Apollonius Rhodius, 1.40 and Scholia on Apollonius Rhodius, 1.948)

Syllis (possible same as Hyllis, granddaughter of Heracles): mothered Zeuxippus by Apollo. (Pausanias's Descriptions of Greece 2.6.7)

Amphissa: Apollo seduced her in the form of a shepherd. They had a son named Agreus. (Ovid's Metamorphoses 6.103 and Hyginus's Fabulae 161)

(hey, has anybody else noticed that 'Apollo disguising himself' seems to only be a thing in Roman literature?)

Areia (or Deione): had a son named Miletus. Hid him in some smilax. Her father found him and named him. (Apollodorus's Bibliotheca 3.1.2)

Arsinoe: she and Apollo had a daughter named Eriopis. (Hesiod's Ehoiai 63 and Scholia ad Pindar's Pythian Ode 3.14)

Queen of Orkhomenos (no name is given): Mother of Trophonius (Pausanias's Descriptions of Greece 9.37.5)

(my fellow ToA fans will recognize that name haha).

Hypermnestra: Either Apollo or her husband fathered her son Amphiaraus. (Hyginus's Fabulae 70)

(sidenote: @literallyjusttoa suggested that Apollo was dating both Hypermnestra and Oikles, and I, personally, like that headcannon)

Manto: Daughter of Tiresias. Apollo made her a priestess of Delphi. They had a son named Mopsus. When Apollo sent her to found an oracle elsewhere, he told her to marry the first man she saw outside of Delphi. That man turned out to be Rhacius, who brought her to Claros, where she founded the oracle of Apollo Clarios. (Apollodorus's Bibliotheca E6. 3)

Later, another man named Lampus attempted to assault her, but was killed by Apollo. She is also said to be a priestess who warned Niobe not to insult Leto, and to ask for forgiveness. Niobe did not. (Statius's Thebaid 7 and Ovid's Metamorphoses 6)

(Dante's Inferno places her in the eighth circle of hell, and let me just say- what the FUCK Dante! What did Manto ever do to you, huh??!! Don't do my girl dirty!!)

Parthenope: granddaughter of a river god. Mothered Lycomedes by Apollo (Pausanius's Descriptions of Greece 4.1)

Phthia: prophetess. called "beloved of Apollo". Mother three kings by him; Dorus, Laodocus, & Polypoetes (Apollodorus's Bibliotheca 1.7.6)

Procleia: Mother of Tenes, son of Apollo, who was killed by Achilles before the Trojan War. Daughter of King Laomedon, king of Troy. (Apollodorus's Epitome 3. 26)

Helenus: prince of Troy. Received from Apollo an ivory bow which he used to wound Achilles in the hand. (Photius's 'Bibliotheca excerpts')

Hippolytus of Sicyon: called "beloved of Apollo" in Plutarch's Life of Numa. I don't think this guy is the same as Hippolytus, son of Zeuxippus (son of Apollo), king of Sicyon Pausanias talks about in his Description of Greece. That would be a little weird taking the whole family tree into account - though it's never stopped other gods before. *shrug*

Psamathe: nereid, said to be the personification of the sand of the sea-shore. (Conon's Narrationes 19)

She and Apollo were lovers, but never had any kids. When another man assaulted her, she had a son and abandoned him.

(He was found by some shepherds dw - wait, he was then torn apart by dogs. Nevermind.)

Back to her, her father ordered for her to be executed and Apollo avenged her death by sending a plague onto Argos and refused to stop it until Psamathe and Phocus/Linus (her son) were properly given honors.

(I really like how even though Linus isn't Apollo's kid, and that Psamathe wanted nothing to do with the kid, Apollo still considered him worth avenging too <3 )

Okay, in a previous incarnation of this post, I said there was a version where she is raped by Apollo...however, I can't find any sources to back it up😅 Even her wiki page doesn't mention rape, and Theoi's excerpt of Paunasias's Descriptions of Greece about her doesn't either.

So where did I hear about this supposed version? (Don't shoot)

Youtube. A youtube video about Apollo. Yeah...

Lesson, kids! Don't trust youtube videos on mythology! Yes, even if they dedicated lots of time to it! They can still get things wrong! In fact, don't even take my word for it! Do your own research <3

Alright. 34 lovers here.

5 Male. 29 Female.

33 are 100% consensual. Creusa is questionable, depending on who's translating/which tradition you go with.

Lovers Who Died:

Hyacinthus*: mortal prince. we all know this one, right? Right? one and only true love turned into flower (okay that's my bias speaking but AM I WRONG?) (Plutarch's Life of Numa, 4.5; Philostratus the younger's Imagines; Pseudo-Apollodorus's Bibliotheca 1.3.3; Ovid's Metamorphoses 10.162–219; Bion's Poems 11; and various pieces of art)

Cyparissus: mortal. his DEER DIED and he asked Apollo to let him MOURN FOREVER so he was turned into a cypress tree (Ovid's Metamorphoses X 106ff)

Coronis: mortal princess. cheated on Apollo w/h Ischys, who in Fabulae was killed by Zeus. mother of Asclepius. killed by Artemis. (Pindar's Pythian Odes 3.5; Pausanias's Descriptions of Greece 2.26.6; Hyginus's Fabulae 202; Ovid's Metamorphoses 2.536 and 2.596; Hyginus's De Astronomica 2.40; Isyllus's Hymn to Asclepius 128.37 ff.)

There is another version of Asclepius's birth given by Pausanias in Descriptions of Greece 2.26.1-7, where Coronis exposes him on a mountain and Apollo takes him in.

Adonis: yes, THAT Adonis. he's in this category because. well. he died. rip (Ptolemy Hephaestion's New History Book 5)

Phorbas: Okay so Apollo's lover Phorbas and another Phorbas sometimes get mashed together so this is what I was able to gather.

Plutarch's Life of Numa 4.5 and Hyginus's De Astronomia 2.14.5 cites Phorbas as Apollo's lover. The other Phorbas is said to be a rival to Apollo in the Homeric Hymn to Apollo. Personally, I separate the two because it makes more sense with Phorbas the lover's overall story.

Here it is: The island of Rhodes fell victim to a plague of dragons or serpents, and the oracle said to summon Phorbas for help. He defeated the infestation, and after he died, Apollo asked Zeus to place him in the stars, and so Phorbas became the constellation Serpentarius, also known more widely as Ophiuchus (a man holding a serpent).

FORGET ORION AND HIS ONE-OFF MENTION OF BEING DIANA'S LOVER HERE IS A CONSTELLATION TRAGIC LOVE STORY!!!!!

(*Hyacinthus was resurrected, as celebrated in the Hyacinthia festival in Sparta. Nonnus's Dionysiaca 19.102 and Pausanias's Descriptions of Greece 3.19.4 supports this belief as well.)

5 lovers.

4 Male. 1 Female. All consensual.

Sidenote: QUIT BURYING THE GAYS GREECE!!!!

Love-Interests Who Rejected & Died:

Daphne: do i nEED to say anything? Nymph. turned into tree to escape.

Daphne and Apollo actually go back a bit. Their story was used to explain why the laurel was so sacred to Apollo. It's in Delphi, Branchus planted laurel trees around the temple he built to Apollo, the laurel was even sacred to Apollo's historical forebearer Apulu, an Etruscan god! (I have sources to back this up :3 along with an Essay.)

Apollo & Daphne first originate from Phylarchus, but we do not have any of his work :( It's been lost to history...a moment of silence RIP. He was a contemporary in the 3rd century BC/BCE (first day of 300 BC/BCE and last day of 201 BC/BCE).

He was, however, cited as a source in Parthenius's Erotica Pathemata, written sometime in the 1 century AD/CE (sometime between 66 BC/BCE and the author's death in 14 AD/CE).

Then they show up again in Pausanias's Descriptions of Greece, written between 150 AD/CE and 170 AD/CE.

Hyginus wrote his Fabulae sometime before Ovid's because it's widely criticized to be his earliest work and Ovid wrote his Metamorphoses in 8 AD/CE.

The first two versions are roughly the same, and Ovid's shares similarities with the first in only the ending. Hyginus is basically like Ovid's but without Eros.

So in publication order, it's; Erotica Pathemata, Fabulae, Metamorphoses, then Descrip. of Greece.

In Erotica Pathemata, Daphne is the daughter of Amyclas and is being courted by Leucippus. She is not interested in any sort of romance. Leucippus disguises himself as a girl to get close to her, but his ruse is revealed when Apollo nudges Daphne and her attendants into taking a bath in the river. Leucippus is consequently killed.

Apollo then becomes interested and Daphne runs away, imploring Zeus that "she might be translated away from mortal sight", and is transformed into the laurel tree.

In Fabulae, Daphne's story is a bit more familiar. She's the daughter of Peneus, the river god, and Gaea is the one who transforms her into a laurel tree.

In Metamorphoses, Eros is added to the story and is the reason why Apollo is so enamored and Daphne is so repulsed.

(I would just like to say that in this version, it was 100% nonconsensual for both of them! And I don't mean with rape- Apollo never touches Daphne in any of these version. What I mean here is that Eros maliciously makes Apollo chase down a woman and makes sure Daphne would be repulsed by him. That is noncon behavior there on both sides.)

In Descriptions of Greece 10.7.8, Daphne is the daughter of Ladon and her and Apollo are only connected by way of why the laurel crown is the victory prize of the Pythian Games. However, in Descriptions of Greece 8.20.2-8.20.4, Daphne and Leucippus make an appearance here too, but Apollo is not the reason why they stop to take a swim and his ruse is revealed, resulting in his death.

Castalia: Nymph. turned into spring to escape.

First things first, Castalia was used to explain the existence of the Castalian Spring in Delphi. However, in the Homeric Hymn to Apollo, the spring is already there when Apollo was born. So there's that to consider first.

Anyway, to escape Apollo's advances, Castalia transforms herself into a spring. (Lactantius Placidus's On Statius's Thebaid 1.698. This was written between Lactantius's lifespan of c. 350 – c. 400 AD/CE, placing it firmly in Roman times.)

2 Interests.

2 Female.

Love-Interests Who Rejected & Cursed

Cassandra: mortal princess. Received the gift of prophecy from Apollo. Due to a broken oath, she was then cursed. (Aeschylus's Agamemnon)

It is only in Roman-era tellings where Cassandra is cursed for not sleeping with Apollo, and there was no oath made (Hyginus & Pseudo-Apollodorus). In Agamemnon, it was done so because of the broken oath- not the refusing to sleep with Apollo thing.

The version where she gains prophetic abilities by way of a snake licking her ears is not part of Greco-Roman literature, but rather by an American poet.

Nevertheless, even after the curse Cassandra still loved Apollo, and called him "god most dear to me" in Eurpides's play The Trojan Women.

1 Interests.

1 Female.

Love-Interests Who Rejected & Lived

Sinope: mortal. there are two different version of her myth.

In Diodorus Siculus's Library of History 4.72.2 and Corinna's Frag. 654, Apollo "seizes" her and they have a son named Syrus.

In Apollonius's Argonautica  2.946-951 and Valerius Flaccus's Argonautica 5.109, it is Zeus who abducts her, but she gets him to promise her anything and requests to remain a virgin. He obliges. Later, Apollo and the river Halys both try to charm her, but fall for the same trick.

Library of History was written between 60-30 BC/BCE, Apollonius's Argonautica between 300 BC/BCE and 201 BC/BCE, and Valerius Flaccus's Argonautica between 70-96 AD/CE, making Apollonius's version the oldest and Valerius Flaccus's the youngest.

Marpessa: mortal princess, granddaughter of Ares. Idas, son of Poseidon, kidnapped her and Apollo caught up to them. Zeus had Marpessa chose between them, and she chose Idas, reasoning that she would eventually grow old and Apollo would tire of her. (Homer's The Iliad, 9.557 and Apollodorus's Bibliotheca 1.7.8–9)

Bolina: mortal. Apollo approached her and she flung herself off a cliff. He turned her into a nymph to save her life. (Pausanias's Description of Greece 7.23.4)

Ocroe/Okyrrhoe: nymph and daughter of a river god. asked a boatman to take her home after Apollo approached her. Apollo ended up turning the boat to stone and the seafarer into a fish. (Athenaeus's The Deipnosophists 7.283 E [citing The Founding of Naucratis by Apollonius Rhodius]. The Deipnosophists was written in the early 3rd century AD, between 201 AD and 300 AD)

Sibyl of Cumae: mortal seer. promised to date Apollo if she was given longevity as long as the amount of sand in her hand. he did, but she refused him. (Ovid's Metamorphoses 14)

5 Interests. All female.

Okyrrhoe's story is the only one with any iffy stuff, although, when something iffy does occur, the text usually says so outright.

Rejected by Apollo:

Clytie*: Oceanid nymph. turned into a heliotrope to gaze at the sun forever after the rejection.

1 Advance. Female.

(*Clytie's story was originally about her affection for Helios. [Ovid's Metamorphoses 4.192–270; Ovid used Greek sources about the etymology of the names involved, meaning Clytie and Helios go back to Greek times] As Apollo got superimposed over Helios's myths, people have assumed it is he who is the sun god in her myth and not Helios.)

In Conclusion...

59 people total, and 33 of them have Roman-Era roots with (as far as I know!! Don't take my word as gospel truth!!) no relation to Greece except by way of shared mythology.

Here's the list:

Rhoeo

Thero

Hyrie/Thyrie

Dryope

Melia

Aethusa

Acacallis

Chrysothemis

Corycia

Choine

Thyia

Othreis

Stilbe

Syllis

Amphissa

Areia

Queen of Orkhomenos

Hypermnestra

Manto

Parthenope

Phthia

Procleia

Helenus

Hippolytus of Sicyon

Psamathe

Cyparissus

Adonis

Phorbas

Castalia

Sinope

Bolina

Ocroe/Okyrrhoe

Sibyl of Cumae

Meaning, 56%- and really, it's more like 57%, because Clytie is not Apollo's lover at all- of the lovers listed on this post are not entirely Greek in origin (AS FAR AS I KNOW-)! That does not mean ofc that you have to ignore them. I, for one, really like the story of Rhoeo, and Manto, and Psamethe- I find their myths sweet (Rhoeo & Manto) and bittersweet (Psamethe).

Let's get to the calculations now, yeah?

59 people total (Includes Clytie)

48 Women (81%). 11 Men (19%).

19% were Immortal (Including Lovers & Rejected)

68% Lived (Including Lovers & Cursed & Rejected)

14% Died (Including Lovers & Rejected)

1% were Cursed

2% were Rejected by him

58 people total (Not Including Clytie)

47 Women (81%). 11 Men (19%).

19% were Immortal

69% Lived (Lovers & Cursed & Rejected)

12% Died (Lovers & Rejected)

in that 12%, one was apotheosized - Hyacinthus.

Meaning 10% died permanently, while 2% were resurrected.

2% were Cursed

0% were Rejected by him

Additionally, I left off three male lovers and two female lovers - Atymnius, Leucates, Cinyras, Hecate, & Acantha.

Atymnius has no references to being Apollo's lover, only to Zeus's son Sarpedon. (Wikipedia why do you even have him listed? You need sources smh)

Leucates is another male "lover" left off the rack - apparently he jumped off a cliff to avoid Apollo, but I couldn't find any mythological text to account for it- and no, OSP's wiki page is not a reliable source. There is a cliff named similarly to him where Aphrodite went (by Apollo's advice) to rid herself of her longing for Adonis after his death. Also Zeus uses it to rid himself of his love for Hera before he...well, commits adultery again. 🤷

Cinyras was a priest of Aphrodite on the island of Cyprus. He was also the island's king. Pindar calls him "beloved of Apollo" in his Pythian Ode. However, looking further into Cinyras's life throws a bit of a wrench into it. He's also cited to be a challenger to Apollo's skill, and either Apollo or Mars (Ares) kills him for his hubris.

(honestly, I kinda like the idea that Mars went into Big Brother Mode)

I did consider leaving him on the list, since technically you could argue it was a romance-gone-bad, but among every other source Cinyras is mentioned in, Pindar's the only one who puts a romantic label on him and Apollo.

Plus, he’s been described as a son of Apollo too, and I personally like that more lol

Hecate, the goddess of magic and crossroads, is said to be the mother of Scylla (like, the sea-monster) by Apollo, but Scylla's parentage is one of those "no specific parents" ones, so I left her off the list.

Acantha has absolutely no classical references. There's a plant like her name, but she's made-up, so she doesn't count. *stinkeyes the guy who invented her and claimed his “sources” were reliable when they really aren’t*

(Of course, I could be wrong about any of these. Again, I'm not an expert.)

With all this in mind, this means Apollo's love life actually isn't as tragic as media portrays it, and he isn't as bad as Zeus or Poseidon in the nonconsensual area.

Does he still have those kinds of myths? Yes, with Dryope and Creusa; though, we can discount Creusa because;

1) Depends on who's translating it; and

2) Ion is given different parentage in the Bibliotheca, which yes, came much after Ion, however Xuthus was traditionally considered to be Ion's father rather than Apollo. This means there was probably a different oral tradition on Ion's parentage that just wasn't written down as early as Euripides's was- in fact, it may even just be an invention of Euripides's.

(and honestly Apollo's characterization in Ion just doesn't quite match up with the rest of his appearances in the wider myths (in my opinion, at least))

So that leaves us with just Dryope, who comes from Ovid, a Roman poet, and Antoninus Liberalis, a late Greek one.

Now I'm not saying we should throw her out because of Ovid's whole "wrote the gods even more terribly to criticize Augustus" thing, but it is something to keep in mind. Political mechanics have been used to change myths before, and this is certainly one example of it.

Additionally, I have seen many people discard Dionysus's rapes in the Dionysiaca because of how late it was written, so this one can be given similar treatment if one choses too because of just how late Ovid and Antoninus Liberalis's work was.

You can, in fact, pick and chose if you wish, especially if it'll increase your enjoyment of literature. That's certainly what I do :)

So overall, I'd say Apollo has a rather clean relationship past. He's doing pretty damn good.

Also, I think we should all take note that even if Apollo had noncon myths, that doesn't reflect on the actual god. The Ancient Greeks did not see the myths as "canon" to their gods- in fact, some were not happy with the myths showing the gods in such a light.

That's something else to keep in mind. The gods of the myths are not the gods of Greece, and are more like parables or fables for the Ancient Greeks I'd say. Lessons on morality and such, and of course, warnings against hubris and the like.

This was quite the journey, and I really hope you all enjoyed reading and learning with me! This really makes me wonder- if Apollo's love life is this good, I wonder how misinformed we are on everyone else's? I have no plans on doing Zeus or Poseidon or anyone else (not for a LONG time lol, this took a lot of effort and research!), but if anyone has any idea, or gets inspired to do something like this for any other god, please tag me!! I'd love to see it! :D

And since this was on a previous reblog, here be a meme from a while ago:

[ID: Me Explaining Me. On the left is a girl with her hands up, fingers pinched together, like she's intensely explaining something. The text over her says "Me giving a detailed diatribe about Apollo's love life and how modern media has done him and his lovers dirty". On the right is the girl's mother, wrapped up to her chin in a blanket, with a look on her face that screams "I hear this all the time". The Mother is labeled "My family". /End ID]

suffers in I'm the only mythology nerd in the family

[theoihalioistuff]

"He refers to the sea monster as Triton's dog. [...] When the gods wanted to bind Zeus, he (knowing this from Thetis) honored the other gods, but sent Poseidon and Apollo to serve Laomedon. Laomedon honored Apollo with sacrifices, supposedly as a reward for his service, but he did not honor Poseidon, who had served him and fortified Ilium.

When Poseidon did not receive his due after the appointed time of service, he, being angry with Laomedon, sent a most terrible sea monster which flooded the land by spitting out the sea. Compelled by an oracle, Laomedon dressed his daughter Hesione in royal attire and exposed her to the monster. Herakles, passing by and having been promised immortal horses from Laomedon (which were given to him as a ransom by Zeus for having abducted his brother Ganymede), built a high wall and stood armed by the mouth of the monster. When the monster opened its mouth, he jumped into it all at once. After cutting it up from the inside for three days, he came out, having lost all his hair." ~ Tzetzes ad Lycophron. 34

Interesting to find a version of Apollo and Poseidon's servitude that accounts for Apollo's support of Troy and Poseidon's (usual) opposition. Also the detail of the sea monster being Triton's dog is adorable (and sad) and Herakles coming out hairless is hilarious.

[chthonic-cassandra]

In each appearance [of Cassandra in Greek texts], her visions are produced from a different point in her mythic biography, making a kaleidoscope of her prophetic narratives that grows increasingly complex over time. One largely (but not completely) serendipitous feature of the extant canon means that as Greek literary history moves forwards, from Aeschylus through Euripides to Lycophron, Cassandra's life story plays backwards. Aeschylus describes her on the point of death, Euripides at the moment of the fall of Troy, and Lycophron before the Trojan War has even begun. Each of these three major poets plays on an oddity resulting from Cassandra's genius and interaction with her age and experience: a younger Cassandra is more prophetically gifted than an older Cassandra, since she sees before her more of the future, just as a 'younger' literary work has more past versions of a mythic narrative to which it may respond.

Emily Pillinger, Cassandra and the Poetics of Prophecy in Greek and Latin Literature

[star-of-zeus]

Zeus Aethiops

For the people that come to my blog for the information, the actual post is in non-italics below (pls scroll down quick otherwise I'll look like a dork haha) For the people who have been following my blog for a longer period of time (and those fond of the dramatic) I set this scene:

You open your eyes to a sturdy oak table in the midst of a dimly room that smells of moisture, frankincense, and oakmoss. A deep blue satin cloth, about three feet long, lies upon the table, held down on either side by lit candelabras. The surface is bare otherwise. Pulled out a few feet behind the table is matching sturdy oak armchair with eagle head detailing on each of the armrests, and a royal purple satin cushion. Star-of-Zeus enters, wearing square glasses and holding a old and dusty-looking leather-bound tome that's thicker than their hands can hold stretched to their max, so Star chooses to hold it to their chest wrapped in their arms. Walking to the table, you watch them lean forward to set the heavy tome on the table with a solid, resounding thump before wiping the dust off their shirt and blowing the rest of the dust off of the tome before opening it up. [You, standing on the other side of the table, are subsequently covered in this dust and have to stand there looking like a bizarre snowman while listening] Finally, Star looks up through their glasses after settling in their chair and grins.

"My, my. It seems that it's been three years and two months since my last Zeus Epithets post. Finally ready for the next one?"

Zeus Aethiops is one of my absolute favorite epithets that I commonly venerate, and though this epithet comes rooted in a notion of race that looks nothing like our modern concept, I will take a stand (likely in another post so I can make a full breakdown/rant) against other opinions that I've seen that advise against blending the two (ancient and modern) notions of race when venerating such an epithet, but it will be written entirely from my perspective and experience, so be aware. But I digress - let's get back to learning about this epithet. Some translations I've seen include "of the Burnt Face" or "Ethiopian". Our beloved resource, theoi.com, defines this epithet of Zeus as:

AE′THIOPS (Aithiops), the Glowing or the Black. A surname of Zeus, under which he was worshipped in the island of Chios. (Lycophron, Cass. 537, with the note of Tzetzes.)

If we go to the theoi.com translation of Lycophron's Alexandra, 537, we find the line:

But we have one, yea one beyond our hope, for gracious champion, even the god Drymnius Promatheus Aethiops Gyrapsius, who, when they who are destined to suffer things dread and undesirable shall receive in their halls their fatal guest, the swooping robber, the wandering Orthanes...

The god referred to only by epithets in this line "Drymnius Promatheus Aethiops Gyrapsius" is indeed Zeus - the epithets Aethiops + Gyrapsius are cult-names from Chios, while Drymnius is from Pamphylia and Gyrapsius from Thurii.

So, now that we've established this epithet is from Chios, and attributed to Zeus, let's take a closer look at what the term Aethiops might signify. Merriam-Webster defines Aethiops as an alternate spelling of Ethiops, and defines Ethiops and simply meaning "Ethiopian" but the old Greek etymology of the word is a compound, according to Wikitionary --

From Proto-Hellenic*aitʰiyokʷs, explained since antiquity as αἴθω (a��thō, “I burn”) +‎ ὤψ (ṓps, “face”), though this is likely a folk etymology.

Thus, it wouldn't be outrageous at all to assume that this was a word used to refer to peoples with higher amounts of melanin, or generally those from the ancient region of Aethiopia, which was a geological term used to designate the "upper nile region of Sudan, south of the Sahara, and certain areas of Asia."

But yes, overall the opinion of scholars and historians is that the term 'Aethiops' could reasonably be associated with features that are associated with the Black or African people of today. As an American, I could go on long-winded talks about my experience worshipping a Justice god that is depicted as what I see as Black (not even to mind that I started following this path in 2020, during another round of BLM protests) but that's a topic for a more personal post instead of a research-based one. In the meantime, please look at one of my favorite pictures of Zeus from a Laconian cup, and if you look at me in my beautiful hazel eyes and tell me those aren't locs coming from Zeus's head I'm having Sisyphus crush you under his boulder.

Was Homer's Zeus Black?

Chios is a Greek island off the Western coast of Turkey, and I watched one video that also talks about Zeus Aethiops but makes the claim that Homer is from the island of Chios (which the author provides evidence for from the Homeric hymn to Apollo) and therefore the Zeus that Homer writes about in the Iliad and the Odyssey could be Black. In my personal opinion, they're playing very fast and loose with the Homeric Question, something scholars have been arguing over for centuries, but at the same time I very firmly believe in the mystery of history and the fact that it is incredibly important for people to see themselves in the deities or things they venerate, and at the very least it's great food for thought. The Homeric Question is outside the scope of this post, but I just wanted to share some other resources in case someone wants a longer more video-essay style post about Zeus Aethiops and that perspective on Homer.

But yes. That's all I have to say on Zeus Aethiops for now, but rest assured I will be shouting from the rooftops about him again soon. I'm so happy I finally did a post on one of my (probably top 5?) Zeus epithets, even though there isn't a lot to be found about this surname of his since I suppose it could have been considered minor in the ancient world.

As always, feel free to send in requests for other epithets!

[olympianbutch]

Gods can be portrayed as darker skinned but they can't be portrayed as a different race without a single trace of Greek or Italian. bro there are people who draw them as black or islanders.

It's been a while since I've physically rolled my eyes at an ask, so thanks ig.

The ancient Greeks depicted their gods as being anthropomorphic, but it was never stipulated that they had to be Mediterranean-looking.

Zeus Aithiops (literally "the Black") was worshipped on the island of Chios during late antiquity (Lycophron, Cass. 537), and an instantiation of Artemis that was surnamed "Aithiopa" was worshipped elsewhere. Already, there is no reason why the gods can't be portrayed as Black. And need I remind you that Afro-Hellenes exist lmao??

IIRC, the Greek gods were also occasionally surnamed Aigyptios/Aigyptia, denoting them as being Egyptian. I know for certain that Dionysos and Artemis were viewed and portrayed as "foreign gods"; Jennifer Larson talks about their "foreignness" (both literal and metaphorical) at length in her book "Ancient Greek Cults: A Guide."

You're demonstrating a severe lack of faith in the agency of the gods, and making yourself out to be historically illiterate.

They are universal gods. The ancient Greeks were eager syncretists, often equating their gods with the divinities of other foreign populations to demonstrate their universality. If you have a problem with the gods being portrayed as not Greek, take it up with the ancient Greeks. There's also the fact that the gods aren't Greek in origin. Scholars maintain that the gods we know are Hellenic instantiations of preexisting gods that were imported from elsewhere. Herodotos even expresses a similar view in his Histories.

My brain is melting having to explain this to you.

[babyrdie]

New familiars!

The new familiars are a bird and a dog. I have no idea if the bird is based on anything, but the dog is the Trojan queen Hecuba. In one version of the myth, she was turned into a dog and later became one of Hecate's familiars. This, for example, is mentioned in Lycophron's poem Alexandra. In the trailer, Melinoe explicitly calls her Hecuba.

[sarafangirlart]

Apollonius Rhodius, Argonautica 1. 498 ff (trans. Rieu) (Greek epic C3rd B.C.) :"He [Orpheus] sang of . . . How, in the beginning, Ophion and Eurynome, daughter of Okeanos (Oceanus), governed the world from snow-clad Olympos (Olympus); how they were forcibly supplanted, Ophion by Kronos (Cronus), Eurynome by Rhea; of their fall into the waters of Okeanos; and how their successors ruled the happy Titan gods when Zeus in his Diktaian cave was still a child, with childish thoughts." [N.B. Ophion and Eurynome might be Ouranos and Gaia or Okeanos and Tethys.]Lycophron, Alexandra 1191 ff (trans. Mair) (Greek poet C3rd B.C.) :"[Zeus] who is lord of Ophion's [an early king of heaven deposed by Kronos (Cronus)] throne. But he [Zeus] shall bring thee to the plain of his nativity [Arkadia (Arcadia) and Elis], that land celebrated above others by the Greeks, where his mother [Rhea], skilled in wrestling, having cast into Tartaros the former queen [Eurynome wife of Ophion]."

I feel like not enough people talk or know about this

It’s interesting how this implies that Rhea and Tethys had beef yet Rhea trusted Tethys to raise and protect Hera. What would motivate Rhea to hide her youngest daughter with the sister she beat up? Why would Tethys accept the child of the sister who beat her up and banished her?

Could it be that they reconciled? Or did Tethys pity baby Hera and any resentment she might have for Rhea when she saw her baby?

[littlesparklight]

These Trojan war characters have something in common:

Achilles, Patroklos, Agamemnon, Paris, Deiphobos, Sarpedon, Helenos, and Priam.

Sources which give them male lovers.

Achilles and Patroklos of course, though not in explicitly in the Iliad - later, however, they were certainly explicitly considered to be so. Achilles also was attracted to Troilos in some versions, accounted for in Lykophron's Alexandra (earlier texts fragmentary or lost), and references in surviving art (hares or cocks in conjunction with Achilles and Troilos). I'm not counting Troilos himself because he is always represented as rejecting Achilles, so whether he might otherwise have had mutual affection with a male lover, it's certainly not Achilles. (Tzetzes' commentary on Lykophron: "§ 307  "Alas, alas, I groan, alas, alas, I groan" and your fresh and well-nurtured age, my brother Troilus, "O cub" and most royal offspring, delightful entanglement of the brothers who, having wounded Achilles with the erotic arrow of your beauty, that is, having attracted him so as to fall in love with you, you not having fallen in love with him[...]") (I'll touch on Patroklos separate from Achilles below.)

Agamemnon; Argynnus! Either unrequited and thus (attempted) sexual assault, or apparently perfectly mutual, depending on our two sources. Probably a rather late addition, given our (surviving!) sources, but we can't know exactly, of course. Plutarch's Moralia:

And then in Athenaios' Deipnosophists:

Paris and Deiphobos will be accounted and counted for together, because they have the same love interest, whose name is Antheus (a son of Antenor). We only have it accounted for in Lycophron's Alexandra, and only for Paris, explicitly, there. Deiphobos is accounted for in Tzetzes' commentary:

Some form of the story would be Hellenistic, and probably earlier, but, again, of course we can't know.

Sarpedon "only" counts if we're going with Sarpedon as a long-lived son of Zeus and Europa, and not the Iliad's genealogy where he's the son of Zeus and Laodameia. Sarpedon's two potential male lovers ( it'd be either or of them, given how the story goes) are Atymnius or Miletos and would be part of the reason why he (and the boy) flees Crete and ends up in Lycia. Apollodoros' Bibliotheke: 3.1.2 "But when they were grown up, they quarrelled with each other; for they loved a boy called Miletus, son of Apollo by Aria, daughter of Cleochus. As the boy was more friendly to Sarpedon, Minos went to war and had the better of it, and the others fled." and, further in the same section, "But some say that they loved Atymnius, the son of Zeus and Cassiepea, and that it was about him that they quarrelled."

Helenos and Priam's come from the same (rather suspect; doesn't mean it can't be used, but we have no idea what might be genuine or not) source, Ptolemaeus Chennus/Hephaestion's New/Strange History, surviving only in Photius' summarizing Biblioteca.

This is where Helenos as Apollo's lover comes from! (And is, to my surprise, the only source for it.) And it's also where Priam is apparently beloved by Zeus (and is given the golden vine that otherwise is one of the potential gifts Zeus gave Ganymede's father).

"Priam was beloved by Zeus and received from him the golden vine plant of which he made a gift to Eurypyles, son of Telephos, as the price of his alliance." and "Helenus, son of Priam, was beloved of Apollo and received from him the silver bow with which he wounded Achilles in the hand."

This is also the source that accounts for Patroklos as the lover of Poseidon: "Homer calls Patroclus the first horseman because he learned from Poseidon, who loved him, the art of riding horses."

[my-name-is-apollo]

'Ello :D

I saw a few days ago that you mentioned something about complicated Cassandra & Apollo? I was wondering if you could expand on it 👀 Complicated CassandraApollo sounds interesting

I would like to direct you to this post because it summarises a lot of my feelings on them!

Besides that, I'd like to talk about the way one of my favorite scenes, Cassandra ripping apart her prophetic insignia during her final moments, is written in two different plays:

Farewell, ye garlands of that god most dear to me! farewell, ye mystic symbols! I here resign your feasts, my joy in days gone by. Go, I tear ye from my body, that, while yet mine honour is intact, I may give them to the rushing winds to waft to thee, my prince of prophecy

- Euripides', Trojan Women (trans. Edward Philip Coleridge)

and

Why then do I bear these mockeries of myself, this wand, these prophetic chaplets on my neck?

(Breaking her wand, she throws it and the other insignia of her prophetic office upon the ground, and tramples them underfoot)

You at least I will destroy before I die myself. To destruction with you! And fallen there, thus do I repay you. Enrich with doom some other in my place. Look, Apollo himself is stripping me of my prophetic garb — he that saw me mocked to bitter scorn, even in this bravery, by friends turned foes, with one accord, in vain — but, like some vagrant mountebank, called "beggar," "wretch," "starveling," I bore it all. And now the prophet, having undone me, his prophetess, has brought me to this lethal pass.

- Aeschylus, Agamemnon (trans. by Herbert Weir Smyth)

You can see the difference in how Cassandra feels towards Apollo. In the Trojan woman, there's still some fondness she directs towards her god. She calls him the god who is the dearest to her. She wants to take off the symbols of Apollo she dons on her body and give it back to Apollo while her honor is yet intact. It's a way for her to not let her god get dishonored in that helpless situation.

Where as in the Agamemnon, Cassandra sounds more bitter, there's no hint of fondness here. She tears away her prophetic symbols and tramples them because she wants to destroy them. She also blames her act of destroying them on Apollo. Apollo is the ultimate destroyer for her and his symbols are bringers of doom, as she says elsewhere in the play:

CASSANDRA: Apollo, Apollo! God of the Ways, my destroyer! For you have destroyed me — and utterly — this second time.

- Aeschylus, Agamemnon (trans. by Herbert Weir Smyth)

While the two plays portray Cassandra with feelings that are to some extent contrasting (but both founded on desperation), when I think about Cassandra I think like she can feel all those emotions - fondness, bitterness, scorn - almost simultaneously. Because this is her god whom she worships and has dedicated her life for. She has felt his wrath and she has also felt his divine inspiration. She scorned his advances in the past but she still gives him her body to possess his spirit. She couldn't save Troy, she couldn't save herself. But the very last vision Apollo shows her is that of her death being avenged, and that seemed like a miniscule relief for her in the last moments of her life.

Apollo also seems to takes it upon himself to orchestrate that revenge. He could have had other reasons to do that - but to avenge Cassandra's death could also very well have been one of them. We don't really get to see what Apollo thinks of Cassandra. In versions where Cassandra breaks her promise (Aeschylus' Agamemnon and Scholiast on Lycophron's Alexandra) we can definitely assume that he is betrayed by her and is angry with her, understandably so. The scholiast on Lycophron's Alexandra says that Apollo first tried to take back the gift, but when he couldn't he placed a curse to make his gift useless. So it does show that he intended to go easy on her, but it simply wasn't an option. Things are relatively simple here. But there are versions where Cassandra gets her prophetic powers without any direct deal with Apollo, yet the outcome is the same. She rejects him and gets cursed.

Now here the question arises - if satisfying his lust was truly his only objective, why did Apollo curse her instead of just, you know, having his way with her - which wouldn't be unusual for a god? It could be that he simply didn't want (which we see in the case of Sibyl of Cumae). But sometimes I like to think it's more than just that:

Maybe he did it because he knew it would be dangerous to let Cassandra have this power. He was worried that he had blessed her too much, that she had learnt so much that she could intervene with the destiny in her attempts to save Troy. And look at how that turned out for another seer Laocoon - not cursed by Apollo but killed by Athena for warning the Trojans about the Trojan horse. Maybe Apollo didn't want any other god to punish Cassandra like that. She is his beloved priestess, and if at all she has to be punished and damned, he wants to do it himself.

Or maybe (and this is my favourite thought to entertain about them) this was a way for Apollo to deal with his own helplessness about Troy. Because when you think about it, Apollo is not very different than Cassandra in the sense that he is also able to foresee the destruction of Troy, his beloved city with his beloved people, but he won't be able to save them. He is not cursed, he doesn't let out frenzied cries like Cassandra, but he is obliged to abide by the Fates, and has learnt to suffer with his emotions silently. Maybe he desired for someone to join him in this madness. It would torment them but at least he wouldn't feel alone. And he chose Cassandra because she was probably the most beloved to him, and familiar with her virtue, he probably knew she would give him a reason to curse her by rejecting him. He also probably knew that in spite of how unfair he would be towards her, she would still love him and stay devoted to him.

I know my thoughts are probably very unpopular, but I like to think that the bond between them was unbreakable, but definitely very strained. I don't know if co-dependent would be the right word to use for a deity and his doomed priestess (probably not), but I hope you get the idea.

[professeur-stump]

Les grammairiens ne sont pas parvenus à définir la plante môly d'Hermès. Tzetzès (Lycophron 679) dit que les pharmaciens l'appellent « rue sauvage ».

(X)

[theoihalioistuff]

Nurses and Caretakers of the Gods. Part II: Ares and Hephaistos.

(As always, if you know any more sourced versions, I'd love it if you let me know!!!) Part I here.

Ares:

A quick overview of versions of his birth: he is almost universally the son of Zeus and Hera both (e.g. Hom. Il. 5.893, Hes. Th. 922–923; Apollod. 1.3.1), though he is also attested as solely born of Hera (in response to the birth of Athena after touching a prodigious flower from Olenos: Ovid. Fast. 5. 255), solely born of Zeus (after drinking the "male begetting" waters of the Nile: Schol. Aesch. Suppliant Women 855–856) or born of Enyo (Schol. Il. 5.156, Cornutus. Greek Theology. 21, see bellow, Enyo is curiously also attested as an epithet of Hera in Tzetzes ad Lycophron 493 and 519, perhaps in an attempt to reconcile both accounts). He is frequently said to have been born and/or raised in Thrace (e.g. Statius Thebaid 4.786). A fragment from a lost play by Aeschylus perhaps intends to paint a picture of his younger days:

DIKE: (...) Hera has reared a violent son whom she has borne to Zeus, a god irascible, hard to govern, an one whose mind knows no respect for others. He shot wayfarers with deadly arrows, and ruthlessly hacked ... with hooked spears ... he rejoiced and laughed ... evil ... scent of blood ... [Two lines unintelligible] ... is therefore justly called ..." (Aeschylus, Fragment 282. The passage likely seeks to etymologises the name Ares from ἀρή [bane, ruin, curse]) the vicious little psycho

1. Nursed by Thero (Beastly): "Of all the objects along this road the oldest is a sanctuary of Ares. This is on the left of the road, and the image is said to have been brought from Colchis by the Dioscuri. They surname him Theritas after Thero, who is said to have been the nurse of Ares. Perhaps it was from the Colchians that they heard the name Theritas, since the Greeks know of no Thero, nurse of Ares." (Paus. 3.19.7-8)

2. Nursed—among other things—by Enyo: "Accounts of Enyo differ; for some she is the mother of Ares, some his daughter, some his nurse" (Cornutus Compendium of Greek Theology, 21). Elsewhere she is also his sister (Quintus. Fall of Troy 424) or his lover, begetting Enyalios (Eustathius on Homer p.944) she is his everything, literally.

3. Raised and taught the arts of dance and war by Priapos (incredibly enough), a deity originally worshipped in the city of Lampsakos (in the northern Troad), who after spreading throughout the classical world was primarily known as a rustic god with massive genitals:

"According to a Bithynian legend, which agrees well with this Italian institution, Priapos, a war-like divinity (probably one of the Titans, or of the Idaean Dactyls, whose profession it was to teach the use of arms), was entrusted by Hera with the care of her son Ares, who even in childhood was remarkable for his courage and ferocity. Priapos would not put weapons into his hands till he had turned him out a perfect dancer; and he was rewarded by Hera with a tenth part of all Ares’s spoils." (Lucian. On Dance 21)

Hephaistos:

Versions of his birth are more or less split evenly between him being the son of both Zeus and Hera (e.g. Hom. Il. 1.578, 14.338, 18.396. Od. 8.312.) or solely of Hera (Hes. Theog. 929, Apollod. 1.3.5, Hygin. Fab. Praef.), likely in response to the birth of Athena, or else preceeding it due of an unexplained quarrel (Hes. Fragment 343 MW). Regarding detalis of his parthenogenic conception: "Hera, without any man, being lifted up by the wind gave birth to Hephaistos" (Lucian. De sacrificiis 6), and regarding details on the the birth, it's sometimes said to have been from her thigh (Serv. Aen. 8.454). A quaint tale that tries to reconcile both traditions (Schol.bT. Il. 14.296) claims that Zeus and Hera secretly slept together on the island of Samos before they were married. After being oficially given in marriage to Zeus by Okeanos and Tethys, Hera bore Hephaistos, and to conceal their premarital dalliance she pretended that she'd birthed him without need of a father. To finish off, odd genealogies abound which I'm not really going to include, for example Paus. 8.53.5 or Cicero. De Nat. Deor. 3.22.

1. In most accounts he's raised for nine years by Thetis and Eurynome, after being thrown off Olympos at birth by Hera for being lame (main source is Hom. Il. 18.394-405):

"She [Thetis] saved me when I suffered much at the time of my great fall through the will of my own brazen-faced mother, who wanted to hide me for being lame. Then my soul would have taken much suffering had not Eurynome and Thetis caught me and held me, Eurynome, daughter of Okeanos, whose stream bends back in a circle. With them I worked nine years as a smith, and wrought many intricate things; pins that bend back, curved clasps, cups, necklaces, working there in the hollow of the cave, and the stream of Okeanos around us went on forever with its foam and its murmur. No other among the gods or among mortal men knew about us except Eurynome and Thetis. They knew since they saved me." (Trans. Lattimore)

I ship them. Many later accounts confuse both versions of his fall (see below), and so sometimes Thetis and Eurynome recieve him after he's hurled off Olympus by Zeus, presumably as an adult (e.g. Apollod. 1.3.5). Also a variation is found where Hephaestus is raised by Thetis and the rest of the Nereids:

"But my son Hephaestus whom I bare was weakly among all the blessed gods and shrivelled of foot, a shame and disgrace to me in heaven, whom I myself took in my hands and cast out so that he fell in the great sea. But silver-shod Thetis the daughter of Nereus took and cared for him with her sisters: would that she had done other service to the blessed gods!" (Homeric Hymn 3. 311-330)

2. According to the other main variant of his fall, Hephaistos is hurled off Olympos by Zeus after he tries to intervene on his mother's behalf during one of their quarrels (Homer, Iliad 1. 568), presumably to save her from a beating (Plato, Republic 378d), or specifically to free her after she'd been chained and hung from heaven (eg. Apollod. 1.3.5). In this version he falls on the island of Lemnos, and is nursed back to health by the tribe of Sintians (V. Fl. Argonautica. 2.8.5, Hom. Il. 1.590 is quoted below):

"There was a time once before now I was minded to help you [Hera], and he [Zeus] caught me by the foot and threw me from the magic threshold, and all day long I dropped helpless, and about sunset I landed in Lemnos, and there was not much life left in me. After that fall it was the Sintian men who took care of me." (Trans. Lattimore)

As mentioned before both versions were frequently mixed up, being basically doubles of eachother (either Hephaistos is cast out because he's lame or lame because he's cast out), so sometimes he is raised as a child by the Sintians (e.g. Serv. ad. Eclog. 4.62, where he is cast out by Jupiter because Juno rejects him at birth, and so comes to fall on Lemnos).

3. Finally, there is a version where he is entrusted by Hera to the obscure Kedalion, a daimon who had his workshop on the island of Naxos. Hephaistos apprenticed and learnt to work bronze under his tutelage (Eustathius ad Homer, Il. 14.296a). Elsewhere Kedalion is an assistant in Hephaistos' workshop, who is given as a guide to the blind giant Orion so that, standing on his shoulders, he may lead him to the Sun and be healed (Serv. Aen. 10.763, Ps. Eratosthenes. Catast. fr. 32, Orion = Hes. Ast. fr 4, Hyg. Ast. 2.34.3, Sophocles also told this tale in a lost satyr play that bore Kedalion's name).

4. (Edit) Not necessarily raising, but I thought the detail of the Kyklopes teaching him and Athena "all crafts, as many as the skies contain" is really cute (Orphic Fragment 179 Kern)