#more like asked and discussed

[heretherebedork]

I’ve noticed on social media, not so much tumblr but other platforms, that there is a significant amount of people who see a show that has either internal conflict or just general romance without much outside conflict and say it has “no plot.” It is also typically for shows with a slower burn or just more slowly paced in general and i find it interesting because that is plot! Maybe I’m just getting old (but I’m only in my mid-20s so I don’t think so), but it’s fascinating to me to see so many people think that internal conflict = no plot. Recently I’ve seen it said about between us and it just baffles me. I think it makes sense to say a show is too slow paced for your liking or you don’t prefer shows with mostly internal conflict, or even that you don’t think the plot is well written or executed, but many people deny a plot in that show and many others all together. I’m not sure if I have a specific question but I’m just wondering how you feel about the topic. There’s been a lot of discussion about how changing social media platforms has decreased attention spans, i wonder if that’s making young people not appreciate slower shows (since I mostly see people younger than me make these critiques but not always). Is it that popular media like marvel and stranger things and game of thrones has made it seem like everything must happen in a show/movie for it to seem like anything is happening? Idk!

This comes down to the definition of plot and the vernacular definition of plot. What do people consider a plot and how do you define a plot versus character growth?

(Also, mid-20s is not old please don't say that you're a decade younger than me you are not old even in fandom.)

But for many people a plot is the external conflicts that hold a show together and the rest doesn't count as a plot. And that is one way of defining the plot of a show that can be accepted.

I mean, I have no idea about popular media. But what people view as plot is different and that's just how people see shows. And that's okay! Sometimes it isn't about slow, it's about the fact that the plot itself is the growth of the characters. That's a very specific kind of plot that doesn't feel like a plot to many people because it is typically isn't the only plot.

I don't think it's about slow. It's about motivations and story line and how it works and it can very hard to describe in a way that isn't 'this show has no plot!' because most of the words past that can get technical or take a long time or just... I get it. I get why people say that.

I know @absolutebl has talked about ideas similar to this and I definitely think that this is just the kind of thing that is an ongoing conversation within a fandom because plot itself can be questionable in BL even at the best of times if you consider plot to be a cohesive narrative of things that happen and are all supposed to make sense together.

Suffice to say, I don't take a side on this issue because I don't think it's about sides, I think it's about language.

[theriverbeyond]

tbh I can't stop thinking about how i went into Hadestown being like "this is a tragic love story based on a greek myth I enjoy :)" and I came out the other side covered in blood being like "this is a thesis about how capitalism inevitably leads to both personal and global ruin, and so we are duty bound to resist it even as we lose, again and again and again. no matter how impossible it feels or how many times we fail and hit a wall and fall, we try again"

[crimeronan]

i've seen a couple people in the notes of this very good post about fictional polyamory by @thebibliosphere say things along the lines of "oh, i've been doing it wrong :(" or "how do i know if i did this right??" or "i should probably give up and start over, i wrote this badly :(" and. no!!!!

(i AM seeing far MORE people say "oh, this clarified and helped me so much, i think i know how to fix issues i've been having with my own story" which. YES!!!!)

listen. if you're a monogamous person who's writing a polyamorous relationship, and you've been focusing mainly on The Triad and All Three Together All The Time as the endgame, that's literally fine. that's a perfectly acceptable and strong starting point for your plotting, imo. you do not need to give up on a story that you've started like this.

but the things discussed in the post Can and Should improve your execution!

you can keep the same plot beats and overall relationship arc 100%. polyamorous relationships are infinite in their formations, every one is unique. "basically a monogamous romance but with three people" Does exist, as a relationship type. you're not hashtag Misrepresenting (TM) poly people with it

BUT i do think it will help to read up on some poly people talking about how their relationships Differ from monogamous ones.

so i have outlined some basic important concepts about polyamory.

MORE IMPORTANTLY though, i've broken down some questions that you can answer throughout the writing process to strengthen your individual dyad relationships, your individual characterization, & your characters' individual feelings/experiences. this is a writing resource have fun

future kitkat butting in to say i spent over two hours writing this and it definitely needs a readmore. it is also NOT comprehensive. but everything should be pretty simple to follow! feel free to reblog if you find it helpful yourself or just want to reward me for how gotdan long this took KSLDKFJKDL.

i've grabbed quick links for a couple of the important concepts, some have SEO pitches in them but the info largely seems to be good. (if i missed anything Egregiously Gross on these sites i should be able to update the links with better ones later, since they're under the readmore.)

sidenote: this is NOT meant to be overwhelming, despite the length. if you can't read all of this, that's Okay. you do not need to give up on your writing.

here we go:

compersion!

compersion is a BIG thing in a lot of polyamorous relationships. it's joy derived from seeing two (or more) of your partners happy together, or joy derived from seeing your partner happy with someone else.

compersion is really important as a concept because it highlights that every individual relationship within a polycule is different -- and that that's a GOOD thing. it's sort of the inverse of jealousy.

by the "inverse of jealousy," i mean that instead of feeling left out and upset and possessive, you feel happy/joyous/content.

i can use personal experience as an example: it's a Relief for me when my partners receive joy/support/sex/romance/etc that i can't (or prefer not to) give them. and i love seeing my partners make each other laugh and be silly together.

it's 100% okay for a poly triad not to be together 100% of the time, it doesn't mean that the third member is being left out or not treated equally when two people do things alone together.

(i have individual dates with my partners all the time! PLUS larger 3-and-4-person date nights.)

if the third member DOES feel jealous or left out, then the polycule can have a conversation to figure out what needs/wants aren't being met, and solve that. this happens semi-regularly in my polycule, as it will happen in any relationship (including monogamous ones)! it's just part of being an adult, sometimes you have to talk about feelings.

metamours!

a metamour is someone who is dating your partner, but ISN'T dating you. this may not be relevant for people writing closed three-person romantic sexual triads, but it's a super helpful term to know.

the linked article also lists different types of metamour relationships with some fun phrasing i hadn't heard before. the tl;dr is: sometimes you'll be domestic cohabitation friends, sometimes you'll be buddies with your own friendship, sometimes you might not interact much outside of parties, every relationship is different.

there's no one-size-fits-all requirement for metamour relationships. sometimes polyamorous people will end up dating their metamour after a while (has happened to me), sometimes polyamorous people will break up with one partner for normal life reasons, but remain friendly metamours.

the goal of polyamory is NOT for EVERYONE to fall in love. it is 100% okay if this happens in your story, it happens in real life too! but it is also 100% okay for characters to be metamours without ever becoming "more than friends."

(sidenote: try to kill any internalized "more than" that you have when it comes to friendship. friends are just as important and special and vital as partners.)

of course there are a million ways for messiness to occur with metamours within a complex polycule, exactly like with close-knit platonic friend groups. however this post is not about that! there's enough "here's how polyamory can go wrong" stuff out there already, so i'm focusing on the positives here :)

open versus closed polyamorous relationships!

i'm struggling to find an online article that reflects my experience without directly contradicting at least SOME stuff. so i'll give a quick rundown

google has a bunch of conflicting definitions of open relationships and whether open relationships are different from polyamory. the general consensus seems to be that an open relationship prioritizes one partnership (often a marriage), but that each partner can have extraneous flings or long-term commitments (most often sexual in nature).

this is not typically how i use the term wrt polyamory. the poly concept is pretty simple. a closed polyamorous relationship is one with boundaries like a monogamous one. there are multiple partners in the polycule, but they are not interested in having anybody new join said polycule.

an open polyamorous relationship tends to be more flexible -- it just means that IF someone in the polycule develops mutual feelings for a new person, it's fine for them to become part of said polycule if they want to! the relationship/person is open to newcomers.

some groups will need to negotiate this all together, others will just go "haha, you kids have fun." just depends on the individuals!

with open AND closed polyamorous relationships, the most important thing is making sure that there's respectful communication and that everyone is on the same page. but there's no one-size-fits-all way to do that.

i wish i could give you guys a prescriptive "You Must Do It This Way" guide, but that's.... basically the opposite of what polyamory is about, HAHA.

feelings for multiple people!

i was gonna tack this on to the previous section but decided it warranted its own lil bit.

a defining feature (....i'm told?) of monogamous relationships is that a monogamous person only has feelings for One individual at a time. they only want a relationship with one individual at a time. or, if they DO have feelings for multiple people simultaneously, they're still only comfortable dating one person at a time & being exclusive with that one person.

this is perfectly fine!

the poly experience is generally different from this. but once again..... polyamorous people all have different individual perspectives on this.

for me, i have never been able to draw hard boxes around romantic vs sexual vs platonic relationships, & i love many people at once. my personal polycule lacks many strict definitions beyond "these are my chosen people, i want to forge a life with them indefinitely, whatever shape that life takes"

some poly people feel explicit romantic or sexual attraction to multiple people at once, some poly people feel almost no romantic or sexual attraction at all. i'd say that MOST poly people feel different things for different partners, which is not a bad thing!

some poly people are even monogamous-leaning -- they have just chosen one romantic partner who is themselves part of a larger polycule. (so this monogamous-leaning person has at least one metamour!)

or alternatively, they might have one romantic partner AND a qpr, or other ways of defining relationships. (this is a factor in my own polycule!)

i made this its own point because if you're writing a straightforward triad, this is unlikely to come up in the story itself -- but it's worth thinking about how your characters develop/handle feelings outside of their partnerships.

like, is this sort of a soulmateship, 'these are the only ones for me' type deal? in which they won't fall in love with anyone else, and can be fairly certain of that?

that's pretty close to typical monogamous standards but you Can make it work. just be thoughtful with it

alternatively, can you see any of these characters falling in love Again after the happily-ever-after? and how would the triad approach it, if so? what would they all need to talk about beforehand, and what feelings would everybody have about the situation?

it's worth considering these questions even if the hypothetical will never feature in your actual canon, because knowing the answers to these questions will help you understand all of the individuals & their relationship(s) MUCH better.

i've been typing this for nearly two hours and there's a lot more i COULD say because... there's just a lot to say. i'll close out with some quick questions that you can ask yourself when developing the dyad dynamics within your triad

first, take a page and create a separate section for each individual dyad. then answer these questions for every pair:

how does each pair act when alone?

how do they act differently alone compared to when they're with their third partner?

are there any elements of this dyad (romantic, sexual, financial, domestic, etc) that these two people DON'T have with the third partner?

if so, what are they?

are there any boundaries or hard limits within this dyad that aren't shared with the third partner?

if so, what are they?

partner 3 goes out of town alone for a few weeks. what are the remaining two doing in their absence?

(doesn't have to be anything special, it's just to get a sense of how the two interact on a day-by-day basis without the third there)

what is something that each partner in the dyad admires about the other -- that they DON'T necessarily see in the third partner?

what problem do These Two Specifically need to solve in the story before their relationship will work?

how is that problem DIFFERENT from the problems being solved within the other two dyads?

doing this for ALL THREE dyads is VITAL imo. that way, you develop complex and nuanced and different relationships that all have unique dynamics.

those questions should be enough to get you started, i hope

then After you've charted the differences in relationships, you can start to jot down similarities in the overarching triad. what does one person admire in Both of their partners? what are activities that all three like to do together? what are boundaries or discussions that all three share?

but the main goal is to figure out how to Differentiate each relationship!

a polycule is only as strong as the individual relationships within it. if two people are struggling with their own relationship, adding a third person won't fix that.

(UNLESS the third person is the catalyst for those two to, like, Actually Communicate And Work Their Shit Out. i just mean that the old adage of "maybe if we just add a third-" works about as well to fix a miserable non-communicative marriage as, uh, "maybe if we have a baby-")

AND FINALLY.

if you're not sure whether your poly romance reads organically to poly people, you can hire a sensitivity reader with poly experience. if you can't afford that, you can read up on polyamorous resources like a glossary of terms & articles actually written by poly people. (and stories written by poly people!)

you can also just.... ask poly people questions, if they're open to it. i like talking about polyamory and my own relationships so you're welcome to send asks if u want, i just can't guarantee i'll answer bc my energy levels fluctuate a lot and i don't always have time.

polyamorous people are in an uphill battle for positive representation right now & so the LAST thing i want to see is authors giving up on their stories bc they're worried about getting things Wrong. well-meaning and positive stories that treat this kind of love as normal, healthy, & aspirational are So So So Needed. even if you guys end up with some funky-feeling details.

seriously, if you're monogamous then you probably don't have a full idea of Just How Nasty a lot of people can get about polyamory. i wish it DIDN'T mean so much for you guys to want to write nice stories about us, but it does mean a lot. and it means a lot that you want to do it WELL.

in conclusion. this is not a prescriptive guide, it's just a way to raise questions. and also, you all are doing FINE.

[vero-niche]

can i just say how much i adore how Nao-chan's gender is treated so casually in skip to loafer

like, as a white cis woman who is also quite tall and havent read the manga i didnt even realize she was trans until this scene in ep2:

and i didnt even have the time to get nervous how they would handle this as they already moved on, ignoring the comments (just like queer people learn to do so) except for Mitsumi's comforting touch (implying she also heard the comments):

and there were no sad words or anything about this either, it was just handled so.... normally. which should not be something worth highlighting, but, well, you know. also on that note, special shoutout to P.A. Works for casting a woman as her voice actor as well.

she's shown being the supportive and lively aunt and like seconds later in this scene she's back to being her usual self again:

in conclusion

[bixels]

Hey, discussion question:

Is Rose Quartz a war criminal? I see that term bandied around so much for her that it feels like a given that she's a war criminal, but I'm wracking my brain and I can't... actually recall any real war crimes that she committed.

I'm talking objective war crimes, by the way, not war crimes by Homeworld's (the fascist government's) standards. It's literally legal for the Diamonds to shatter (split a person's soul into shards of ceaseless torture) their citizens, I don't value their definition of morality, lol.

[littlefankingdom]

It's funny how in fanfics, people write Clark giving parenting advices to Bruce, when in the comics (see: World's Finest: Batman and Superman) and other media (see: Young Justice), Bruce is the one giving parenting advices to Clark, and he is always very serious about it.

After all, Bruce has been a father figure and mentor for longer and more kids than Clark. Of course he doesn't need to call Clark for help to learn how to take care of his kids, Clark is the one calling Bruce for help when he has an issue and Ma Kent is busy.

[adamsrcnan]

It's official. I have finished The Sunshine Court. I have so many things to say and yet have no idea what to possibly say. It was perfect. It was absolutely perfect and heartbreaking and gut wrenching and an insane emotional roller coaster and everything i could possibly have asked for from Nora. Like she really truly delivered and i'm so fucking INSANELY grateful she has shared this story with us after all these years. We do not deserve her.

[fuckyeahchinesefashion]

OP: Check out. The fully-sexual charged cinematic movement design.

Cnetizens: How did the director come up with the idea to have him kneel on a playing card, adding so much aesthetic energy, is that some kind of genius?

[dykedvonte]

You ever just see a Mouthwashing take that makes you want to bang your head into a wall? I literally just saw someone claim Curly couldn't have been emotionally abused by Jimmy before the crash because he was in a higher position of power than Jimmy.

-Shrimp Anon

The mouthwashing fandom has shown me that people genuinely do believe that certain types of abuse are not as detrimental as other types especially when they deem those immune/resistant, ergo, believing one is objectively worse no matter how it affects the person nor the intersections of power, history and dynamics at play.

Get ready cause this is a yap session:

Cause like it's heavily implied that Curly and Jimmy's friendship was toxic and abusive, pointedly in the direction of how Jimmy uses Curly's belief/comfort in him. Curly wasn't forced to enable Jimmy but he was emotional and mentally on edge around him in almost every scene in some way. Mental and emotional abuse are not contingent on what positions you have at work. Yeah, he's Jimmy's boss but he was Jimmy's friend first and it's like getting into Psych discussion to talk about how social power tends to overshadow any perceived organizational power in the human mind. People are concerned about their jobs ofc but they tend to hang onto and put more value/investment into their personal relationships, hence why there tends to be laws and restrictions around mixing the two.

I always see the sentiments that "Curly is a grown ass man", "Curly is bigger than Jimmy", "Curly is Jimmy's boss", "He just needed a backbone" as criticisms of Curly and while I do agree that on the surface level all of these to be true and viable ways Curly could've taken more control of the situation, I often look at the parallels of Anya and Curly as victims of Jimmy pre/post crash.

The way Jimmy talks to Anya post crash is how he talked to Curly in the pre-crash segments. It's hard to pin-point mainly because we know he hates and wants nothing to do with Anya compared to his contrary but similarly handled obsessions with Curly. It's a weird sort of "honey-moon" effect of abuse Jimmy does in terms of emotional and mental victimization. He is always horrid to Anya, always talking down or questioning her abilities and thoughts in a situation, this of course includes the harassment and assault. However, he has a moment of attempted gentleness/conditioning when he question her about the mouthwash when she's contemplating drinking it at the table. The key difference is he has no personal investment in Jimmy outside wanting nothing to do with him, meaning there is no sort of romanticized version of him that he can condition her off of. He knows this, hence, why he always reverts to trying to make her to scared to oppose him.

This sort of give and take of "kindness" doesn't work on her because she knows he is just doing it to take more from her than whatever he could possibly give but it reflects even the "softer" scenes between him and Curly where he always rewords or rephrases Curly's sentiments and concerns to sound more shallow. He is feigning a deeper understanding by reworking Curly's emotions into something bad and needing to be hidden. Everything is laced with envy and resentment, an outburst just around the corner, I mean he even slams the table in the birthday party scene, a tactic in emotional manipulation to set the victim on edge and cloud their ability to respond. Even if Curly knows Jimmy won't get physical in that moment, the physical actions is intended to make him back down in the confrontation in case it does. This is something that is just not person specific. It ingrains itself into how you interact with the world and life and it shows in major and minor ways with Curly.

Post-crash, the abusive nature is more in tandem to the physical victimization Anya went through and the stripping of voice and autonomy we see take place. Like the parasite in HFIM, Jimmy speaks for Curly most of the time and puts words in his mouth, similarly to how he takes Anya's plans as his own. He very commonly, with the both of them mind you, supplements the worst aspects of himself into them; pettiness, selfishness, lack of understanding... And tries to cover himself with their best qualities; kindness, planning, initiative, etc...

These parallel are just to say that positional power has little to do with if a person can be abused and how it can even be flipped to further the abuse. There is no doubt that Curly could've picked up on Jimmy's envy of his position hence another reason he never confronted him as a Captain but as a friend as doing so would immediately put Jimmy in a space to be confrontational/combative.

I think the disdain some people have when they talk about the heavily implied if not implicitly stated emotional/mental abuse Curly experienced being Jimmy's friend is when treating it as an excuse to why he didn't do more. I can understand that completely because it is not an excuse to why he didn't do more but is a very real reason people in his position in these scenarios can experience whether in the context of a work or social environment. However, I also think the way people talk about it really does demonstrate a bigger problem when talking about abuse when somehow who is/was abused is either part of the issue or enabled it.

Harkening back to the sentiments about Curly's inaction regarding Jimmy, I think the exact phrases I used/have seen show how there is an inherent belief that it is easier to overpower the effects of emotional/mental abuse that go in tandem with the perception of Curly as someone who should be able to. There is not an age you suddenly stop being susceptible to abuse nor a set point or low where you realize how it has affected you. You don't suddenly know to stand up or put a face on to face your abuser nor admit that you inadvertently enabled them to subjugate someone else to the same treatment. Maybe it's my psych brain but their is this growing belief that direct action is somehow easy or always the best method with the game shows you instances where it is not always the case. In real life that rings true too. He should have done more, but it's not impossible to see why he struggled to find a way or didn't even if it makes us mad.

It's not easy to suddenly gain a "back-bone". You don't immediately want to resort to aggression, especially if it mirrors the type you were a victim to. You don't want to believe you allowed yourself to be treated this bad, let it get that bad or allowed something bad to happen to someone else. It is easy to be in denial, to retreat to your thoughts or make excuses to avoid the painful truth. It's frustrating but in a way we know is relatable. It why we both hate and love Curly for it. We know we'd be better, we think we'd be better, we like to think we wouldn't falter in the same ways but it's always easier to say that from the outside looking in. It's easy to see what he was doing wrong because we are seeing it, not him, but the game really does make you picture what you would do if this was your raw reality and it's why this debate about Curly seems so never ending/contradictory. We can all say what we'd do but bottom line is that's much different when you're in the moment with all the emotions and human feelings attached.

I personally think Mouthwashing tackles the themes of rape culture, enabling, toxic masculinity, types of abuse and patriarchy in ways that are meant to deconstruct the typical straightforward views we mostly have of these concepts and how little subtilities of them are just as, if not more, detrimental than the overt/obvious parts. The game deals with the idea of little details and bigger picture in a way to show that sometimes the bigger picture is not the issue but the little details that make it up. It's why I have a personal dislike of depictions of Jimmy as the typical horrible person who would of course do something like this because the game is about noticing the little warning signs, the foreshadowing and foresight.

It's why I dislike the typical discussion of "bro code" and "boys will be boys" for the game because the game makes a point to avoid the standard depictions of such. It is about the type of men who still enable despite not condoning, agreeing or even perpetuating harmful beliefs because they can't see the little details or the ways it seeps into their everyday. The severity is not obvious to them as it was not obvious to Curly, Swansea or even Daisuke the way it was to a woman like Anya. There are little details about Jimmy that should ring alarms but if you are too naive like Daisuke, too distant like Swansea or too conditioned like Curly, they are just off markers.

There is 100% more constructive/concise ways to say "Curly was a victim of Jimmy's abuse on an emotional and mental aspect that clouded his judgements and perceptions in the scenario" while also critiquing on the side of "Curly still had a responsibility to protect Anya as a crew mate and Captain that he failed to do due to biases and stigma's he failed to surpass" without the weird condemnation people give him about should've knowing better than to let himself be manipulated by a person he considered a close, if not family/best-friend and had his own reasons to trust initially. Also stop being weird about victims of abuse in general with this fandom, like sorry not everyone has a like social epiphany the moment someone's nasty to them. People are treating it like you immediately know when you are in a toxic relationship immediately or comprehend when a person is actively dangerous and either it's your fault for not knowing how to leave/cut them off or you deserve it. Like the hypocrisy of people believing how certain fans treat the story reflect their irl views but not their own is crazy.

End statement is: I honestly don't even know man, I've been writing this too long and just like no man on that ship was perfect or really helped Anya when it mattered and I feel like pitting them against each other in discussion on who did the least or most or how it was justified sucks cause in the end Anya always did the most and best thing for herself.

[fumifooms]

do you happen to have that page that talks about the beauty standards of each race?

Yeah sure. While scavenging pics for this I found this neat reddit compilation & chart & theory talk too. I had um, way more to say than I anticipated (I know you only wanted the one page. I have nothing to say for myself. Like most topics in Dunmeshi things snowball because they’re so interconnected. Mercy…) so, many races and observations are only mentioned near the bottom.

Beauty standards and race in Dungeon Meshi

Not pictured there’s also how elven society is harsh on visibly disabled people, and how the demon took away Mithrun’s silver eyes and ears to take away his pride. There’s also how Senshi might have fit in with the orcs more easily because of the dwarven wide body shape, and how they tend to have more body hair too I suppose. In the extra on orcs we see Senshi living with the orcs and he gets judged because of the hierarchy rather than his looks.

What is fashionable also differs from culture to culture, and there’s how tattoos only seem common with elves, though dwarves and others do also sometimes have some. They seem to not raise much brows, which makes sense since for many essentially they’re for professional (magical) purposes especially with elves. Gender roles also differ in type and importance, but generally they are similar to irl ones for the races we see. Elven society seems to be the least gendered, which would be an unsurprising logical outcome of having lesser sexual dimorphism aka they look more androgynous. Comparing fashions and gender roles and how they affect beauty standards would be a whole other compilation and conversation. Kui has great worldbuilding partially because she’s got such a good grasp on sociopolitics and geopolitics. History affects cultures and beauty standards greatly. Kui’s oneshot Distant Utopia was very eye opening on her way to worldbuild and the consideration she gives these things, I do really recommend reading it.

Out of the big 5, we know the least about gnomes, but their sheet does say both culture and region are similar to dwarves’ and they end up being confused together often, so we can imagine the beauty standards are similar to dwarves’ as well.

I wanted to touch on this in a post eventually, but how one daydream hour page said half-foots tended to be curvaceous like in the artwork below puzzled me for a long time, all the half-foot characters we see during canon are rather slender and lanky after all, Chil’s succubi also being more curvy than plump. Economics are for sure a factor in that I imagine, the half-foots characters we see are all implied to be some flavor of poor or malnourished, as are half-foots depicted as empoverished oppressed minorities in general. Even comparing the artwork with the half-foot sheet’s depicted average half-foot, the ones on the left seem bigger. Wouldn’t it make sense though, if unlike dwarves half-foots don’t have similar naturally wide bodies, yet due to idolizing dwarves they work towards having a similar body shape/type to emulate them?

It’s said half-foots tend to stick to pretty ethnically homogeneous regions (aka half-foots-only communities) unless they move to the big city with ambition to try and make it big (like Chilchuck and his wife & kids did), and that’s interesting imo because then that would mean that in a ton of half-foot communities, they rarely see or interact with dwarves whom they try to emulate. Of course, one thing about beauty standards is that when they get adopted, at one point it stops being "this is how dwarves look and so this is how half-foots should look" and just becomes "this is how half-foots should look", most people feel as though beauty standards aren’t learned but innate, so I figure the half-foots wouldn’t have any problem still seeking dwarvish traits when there are no dwarves around.

There’s also stuff you can glean here and there if you want to extrapolate more. Like how in the race swap artworks, Mickbell is only smiling in the dwarf portrait, and Rin’s elven portrait looks very close to her elven one- Rin who is stated to be beautiful in her profile blurb. Benichidori’s extra does teach us tallmen can definitely have harsh beauty standards, but also since the text portrays her as very dysmorphic that’s likely reflected in her thoughts to a much more intense degree than is common, not an accurate strict baseline to go off. Ah, Kabru’s blue eyes are also why he and his mother lived a rough life in Kabru’s hometown, but that seems to be regional. Good post here on the topic of Kabru’s blue eyes and ties to irl history. There’s a lot to be said about Kabru being a man that in many ways is close to elven beauty standards, and how that might have affected or been affected by his upbringing with elves + his persona as someone that can effortlessly charm most people. Marcille’s section here in this essay also goes into Marcille’s struggles to fit in with the ideal image of an elf.

Looking human

Also notable are beastkins and demihumans: Demihumans are all dehumanized which makes people treat them worse. So if you differ from the visual idea of "human" (an in-world subjective categorization just as much as demihuman is) most people do judge you negatively. Elves and dwarves get to fight about which type of human is considered the prettiest, but demihumans are below tallmen and half-foots, they are considered as simply below the beauty contest, incompatible with it.

Onis are perhaps the demihuman people we know of with the least cultural influence on the dunmeshi world, and with the least intensely different appearance than other demihumans—they seem to be technically categorized as human to people not from the eastern archipelago?— but even them are treated as lesser than human, treated as beasts to slain for reputation points or useful strength to have around and command. It’s said their "magnificient horns" and fangs are often shaven off when the oni lives in tallman towns, so you could easily make the argument that onis are denied the right to have their own beauty standards, having to conform to other people’s and going through mutilation to take away features they might otherwise have taken pride in. Inutade was bought by the Nakamotos from a dangerous sumo fighting ring that got one of Inutade’s tooth broken on her first and only fight, and kept as a low ranking servant ever since. Remember when I said different fashions existed in dunmeshi and how those could also affect beauty standards? Like the elves, if you look at the portraits pages which include a lot of characters that aren’t in the story you can see distinct cultures within the same races, for example one young elf is bald which is in sharp contrast with the usual elven long luscious hairstyles, and that’s especially true for onis I think. Maybe not only from different regions but different eras as well… They have a bit of population in the very north of the western continent, so I like to think some of the ogres live in very cold, maybe even subarctic or arctic conditions. The point I’m getting at here is that within a race, culture/ethnicity like with Kabru will also influence them it isn’t just tallmen as a whole, different communities will have differing beauty standards. The oni history blurb and third row first collumn portrait remind me of Mongolia (which historically was a lot of different nomadic communities with different cultural identities as well. Something something, the oni empire experienced a decline and then tallmen overpowered them, and now they’re governed and split apart by stronger social classes & slavers and the richness of culture was hurt for it especially if they have no real community left of their own), but obviously many of them are dressed and look rather japanese, makes sense considering living in/close to Wa, and first row second collumn portrait reminds me of ainus which again would be logical considering geographical placement, though I’m far from an expert. Interestingly, ainus are indigenous people both in Japan and Russia- Perhaps the northern western continent ogres are meant to be closer to Russia than Canada like I imagined? Ok tangent over.

The kobold sheet says they’re especially sought after as slaves because they’re "adorable", but locally in the western continent they’re repeatedly said to be seen more as ferocious and dangerous. The dehumanization is most apparent in the first comic below. The language barrier and conflicts no doubt worsen this by a lot, but I think it’d be hard to deny that their canine appearance makes the dehumanization worse. "They’re ferocious beasts, they’re demihumans, they can’t be communicated with". Most characters in Dungeon Meshi’s world are desensitized to slavery and most characters are prejudiced one way or another. Point being, kobolds are fully removed from human beauty standards, but no doubt for kobolds, other kobolds are more beautiful than humans are. They’re assumed to be an uncivilized bunch, but just like any other people they like to adorn themselves with nice clothes and jewelry and keep themselves clean and groomed; they too take care of their appearance and take pride in it.

And the orcs! This one we have the most contact with in canon, with not only there being foreigner characters from the ethnicity or hearsay of their homelands and culture but full on contact with a community. We get to see up close what they’re like and what they think, and of course in turn they’re our introduction to how demihumans are harshly looked down upon and seen as inferior, less human and thus less worth valuing and less dignified. It’s text that orcs are ugly to most humans and humans are ugly to most orcs. Since I judged they didn’t need accompanying explanation the pictures showing this are in the pictures dump at the top.

God forbid you sell vegetables to orcs my god- but then again they do basically mandate adventurers to kill any orcs they come across so yeah the world isn’t above that even a little bit.

So yes, my main point here is simply that orcs are yet another evidence of the physical ideal of "human" being an important beauty standard for human societies globally.

Izutsumi is our glimpse at how beastkins are treated in the world, and in Wa at least that’s ending up being caged and mistreated as part of a freak show. Izutsumi hates her appearance and wishes she could leave the feline part of herself behind to only be human. Interestingly, not that we have a lot of info on them so this is very much a take with a grain of salt situation, but there seems to be less stigma around artificial beastmen, those who can shapeshift at will. The main difference is of course appearance, that most of the time they simply look like average tattooed humans. Artificially creating humans is an illegal practice, and no doubt it’s not well regarded, but being able to hide that makes them less likely to be discriminated at any moment, or even just discriminated less intensely. Again, looking human is important, not only for belonging but for safety’s sake. Beauty standards rule the world with harsh hands.

Mermaids and fishmen

Ok we’re done now right? Right-! But wait… Wait…! Mermaids and fishmen are said to be demihumans too, special separate cases to the main three demihuman species however, which is also represented by how mermaids and fishmen both are in the Adventurer’s Bible chapter Monsters meanwhile ogres, kobolds and orcs are in the chapter World. They’re an interesting topic because they directly tackle this topic, not only in a meta way for the readers but also making characters themselves struggle to quantify their humanity with the goal of knowing wether they should be eaten or not, especially Chilchuck. Chilchuck’s "is it really just a matter of feelings?" mini arc.

The party asking themselves "Should we eat this?" is very common, and often they end up playing a little loose on morality, like eating the red dragon’s meat despite it having digested Falin. Not unsimilarly Marcille freaks out a little over the vegetables they harvested having been grown with fertilizer, aka largely human poo. Half of the motivation of "should we eat this perhaps sentient creature" is out of consideration and compassion, but more strongly and more often, the characters struggle with a sense of taboo at eating something too closely related to humans. Even, feel uncomfortable because of the deepseated impression that eating it would dirty them in some way. Cannibalism is an interesting and relevant topic in many ways, but what I want to mention is how there’s the more or less universal belief that committing cannibalism inherently taints you as a person and turns you more monstrous, morally but also literally depending on some myths such as w*ndigos and onis in some cases, like in Touge Oni. Marcille and Izutsumi both express a fear of eating monsters turning them monstrous. Maybe this is part of what Laios was hoping for, honestly. There are two fears here, if eating a demihuman monster constitutes as cannibalism or not, and so, will eating it taint you because it’s a human, or will eating it taint you because it’s a monster? You are what you eat, until it’s a little too literal. You morally are the means by which you get your food, and you physically are the result of your nutrition. Dungeon meshi manages to mix an exploration of humanity with the theme of food because our relationship to food is very deep and complex, psychological as much as physiological.

In the end, the characters sort of shrug and accept that they’ll never quite understand the world of mermaids and fishmen and how they operate, and what that means about them. Laios is the one always challenging these notions other characters take for granted, it’s not obvious to Laios why people are softer on mammals than other animals and plants, it’s not obvious to Laios why people would be afraid of eating a monster just because it’s a monster, it’s not obvious to Laios why some food is gross to Marcille but not fish testicles, it’s not obvious to Laios why you should immediately regard orcs and kobolds badly.

"Cows are probably closer to humans [aka closer to being human] than fishmen, though they’re clearly intelligent", dehumanization to lessen empathy towards them to be able to eat them. Meanwhile, mermaids seemingly have a less noticeable "civilization" or intelligence, they hunt in groups like fishmen, but they don’t use tools and such, they feel more primal and similarly instinct driven, and yet… Do they attract sympathy more? Mammals, humans, is it because of their nature or because of their appearance?

Both the nature and appearance of fish are ones people don’t typically sympathize with. "Fish don’t feel pain", "goldfish only have 5 seconds of memory", "it’s okay to keep fish in completely empty bowls too small for them until they die from it", so many lies and misconceptions exist that make people less considerate of them. The average lifespan of a goldfish is 10-15 years, the record is 43, but they’re not seen as lives that really matter, so a lot of goldfish die in a few weeks of bad aquarium conditions. There’s a lot of research on animals evolving to look cute and appealing to make some predators want to kill them less and parents want to care for them more, including humans. First good google research result gave me this credible short article on the topic. In Chilchuck’s weighing wether a fishman is far enough from being human or not to eat, "face is 100% fish" is his biggest argument for it being more acceptable. The face, the most important thing for empathy and recognition. The face, the decapitated fishman one that falls into his hands next chapter.

To quote @room-surprise: "Chilchuck can't explain why it's wrong to eat the merpeople, even though it's NOT complicated. But the problem is Chilchuck would have to accept and acknowledge that the merpeople might be people? And that's outside of the worldview he passively believes, so he can't just say that, because he doesn't think that's true. But that IS why he "feels" it's wrong. And it's all you'd need to say for Laios to understand! But it would require acknowledging that maybe the way they're treating and talking about the merpeople is wrong."

The idea of Chil not being able to grapple with how maybe some monsters are more humans than they seem, him who had been an advocate of half-foots rights, half-foots who get undermined and treated as inconsequential sacrifices… Grappling with how he could relate to the merpeople’s situation almost, and pulling away because it’s so existentially horrifying. I do not want to see myself into an hostile fish-faced warrior I can’t communicate with. In a way this also relates to Chilchuck being the only party member who doesn’t see Izutsumi as a cat in the relationship chart, the only one to treat her with full human dignity. He knows the struggle to be taken seriously, he knows being infantilized and he knows what it’s like to be treated as less than human.

Below, you will see Chilchuck draws the line of where they become not okay to eat as when "they already look like mermaids". Above, there’s speculation that the algae hair is partly to mimic "the mermaids’ beautiful female form". Is it because mermaids are their enemies and the ambiguity might give them extra seconds to attack or flee? Is it to trick adventurers instead? It’s striking to me that this is what works, with the adventurers. Sure the fishmen are intelligent, but explicitly here, what makes them no longer acceptable prey to Chilchuck is that they look close enough to a mermaid, close enough to human. Mermaids who of course themselves have this form to entice and seduce and charm the adventurers they prey on. Chilchuck considers the intelligence due to the tridents, but most of his internal debate centers around their appearance, and the image of a fishman skewered sickens him. The power of mimicry… Mimic being a beautiful human woman. Mimic being cute, babies being wired to make us feel protective and softened. Half-foots, sometimes pretending to be children for scams or help or avoiding trouble.

The mermaids are only concerned by their differences and not their similarities, and have no trouble treating the fishmen as food rather than peers. To an outside perspective like us, the audience, all these categorization of "more human" and "less human" between onis and orcs and elves and tallmen etc seem stupid and unfounded, but to the people living in Dungeon Meshi’s world, elves may as well be mermaids while onis are fishmen, not alike at all, unworthy of empathy and thus fine to eat.

Ultimately, Dungeon Meshi promotes unity. It’s about seeking to understand the unknown and the misunderstood, the dehumanized and the inhuman. It shows the good that comes from seeking to understand what you do not, even when that’s one another.

[copypastus]

Nothing gave me more whiplash IN MY LIFE than going from acowar to acofas.

Remember when Feyre closed the chapter on her relationship with Tamlin and wished him well? Coz the Inner Circle sure keeps forgetting.

[ouaw-facts-i-just-made-up]

Gideon leans into the whole "big dumb idiot" thing, cause folks are gonna assume that about him anyway, but he wishes people saw him as smarter. Learning from books doesn't come naturally to him, but once he gets his hands on something *real* he'll have it figured out quick. People don't really give him the chance, though. It makes him feel a little bad, like he's too stupid to be let in on things or give input on anything.

[comikadraws]

What actually was Itachi's desease? Does anyone know?

I AM GETTING ITACHI ASKS! FINALLY!!! Though I imagine my answer might be disappointing :')

Itachi's Mysterious Illness

Length: • 3.2K Content: • Itachi's Illness as a Writing Tool • Itachi's Symptoms • Popular Diagnoses • Exploring Alternative Causes • My Thoughts and Theories

DISCLAIMER: I have no medical background and, for the most part, am relaying the findings of others, not my own. Some of the panels are out of order. Blue links are sources. The art in the header is mine.

Itachi's Illness as a Writing Tool

Itachi's illness is very much a mystery in canon. A side-note. Itachi doesn't make enough appearances in the story for us to get an elaborate picture of his health. While there are popular theories, the fact of the matter is, we just don't know for sure what he was suffering from.

Due to Itachi's illness not playing a larger role in the story, it is unlikely Kishimoto actually researched any particular disease to reference. He resorted to a fairly common trope called the "Incurable Cough of Death" which is known for taking inspiration from Tuberculosis and its bloody coughs. The author doesn't specify any illness. It is merely a plot device to push a storyline.

As a narrative device, you might even consider Itachi's illness as a metaphor. While dying young was a deliberate choice on Itachi's part, his illness further solidifies his decision, leaving him with no way back. It mirrors Itachi's lack of agency in life. And, of course, it also makes Itachi's suffering palpable and highlights it for the audience. Itachi is in agony, yet chooses to suffer for Sasuke's sake rather than taking the easy way out.

Of course, while Itachi's illness is an unspecified, plot- and/or narrative-device disease, that doesn't necessarily have to stop us from trying to find a real-world equivalent or an in-universe explanation. But to do so, we must describe his physical condition first.

Itachi's Symptoms

While hemoptysis is probably the trademark of Itachi's illness as portrayed in fandom, it can be argued he was experiencing a wider range of symptoms. None of these necessarily have to be the result of Itachi's illness but since they often come up in discussions, I will mention them anyway for the sake of completion.

Low BMI

To begin with, Itachi's body is in a fairly weak condition. For example, Itachi's BMI stands fairly low at 18.3 at the time of his death, which is considered to be slightly underweight. It is a slight drop from his 18.6 at 18 years old.

While BMI is not a professional way of measuring a person's health, it does bring things into perspective. Considering that Itachi is a physically active person, he probably had a low fat-to-muscle ratio. Combine that with his low BMI and we can fairly assume that Itachi had weight problems, assuming Kishimoto and/or his assistants put that much thought into those numbers.

Low Stamina According to Databooks

Itachi's stats in the Databooks also indicate somewhat of a physical weakness. While Itachi ties with Jiraiya in having the highest stat total in Sha no Sho (35.5 points), he has noticeably low stamina at a value of just 2.5 points. It is not a major deficit, but it is definitely odd, especially when putting things into perspective.

In the Databooks, characters with high stat totals usually have stat deficits at 3 or 3.5 points, not at 2.5. Stat deficits of 2.5 occur at slightly lower stat totals, like Might Guy who reaches a stat total of 31.5 and a hand seal deficit of 2.5.

Additionally, characters with stamina deficits are usually associated with physical ailments. Orochimaru is basically suffering from necrosis, Hiruzen is 70 (his old age likely impacting his physical prowess), and Kakashi basically goes unconscious every time he uses the Sharingan as early on as chapter 16 of Naruto (indicating low chakra reserves).

Again, we better hope those numbers were intentional or this doesn't mean anything.

Noticeable Frailty

But now, let's take a look at the manga to search for evidence. What other fans before me have already pointed out is that Itachi's interactions with Kisame are fairly curious.

In a seemingly random scene, Kisame worries about the weather, claiming both he and Itachi will catch a cold if they stay out in the rain for too long. It is a somewhat strange suggestion, considering that this is coming from a shark man who primarily uses water ninjutsu in his battle tactics. You'd think he isn't bothered by some rain or chill if he is already getting wet this often.

Not that this applies to his partner, however.

In chapter #364 we get a repeat of this scene in which Kisame expresses worry only for Itachi rather than for the both of them. Kisame is made out to be explicitly caring toward Itachi and sensitive to his health and needs. But looking back at chapter #353, he refrains from hurting Itachi's pride by stating it out in the open.

This recontextualizes the scene from a few chapters earlier as this pattern in Kisame's behavior is actually consistent with the rest of chapter #353.

Kisame mentions that Itachi was absent from his most recent battle against Roshi. For unknown reasons, this causes Itachi's expression to turn somber or melancholic (though it could be argued he is smirking ever so slightly). Perhaps Itachi was reminded of his physical decline. Perhaps he regrets missing out on this last mission with Kisame.

Either way, Kisame picks up on Itachi's mood and quickly clarifies that this solo battle was the former Kiri-nin's idea and not at all Itachi's fault. While we cannot say for sure, the possibility that Kisame insisted on going without Itachi specifically to spare the Uchiha from putting unnecessary strain on his body is definitely there.

Kisame goes on to say he is tired, yet the first person to sit down in search of a break is Itachi - The same guy who didn't even fight Roshi and, at least technically, should be in better health than Kisame.

Kisame's worry for Itachi's health supports the idea that Itachi has been struggling for a while now - long enough for Kisame to pick up on Itachi's condition. He watches out for any strain or health risks that Itachi might unwittingly subject his body to, implying certain frailty that could be explained by a weak immune system and/or a weak and easily fatigued body.

During the Battle (Hemoptysis, Vision Loss, Heart Attack)

Besides this, Zetsu comments on Itachi's condition multiple times - both during and after the brothers' battle. He mentions that Itachi's movements were sloppy and wonders why he was coughing up blood. He hypothesizes that Itachi's body may have already been pre-damaged at that point.

Guessing by Zetsu's reaction, this must have been a recent decrease in Itachi's battle performance rather than a long-established issue. Combining this with Kisame's behavior (that instead implies a longer history) Itachi's condition has likely been bad for a longer time but never impacted him this severely until now. The illness may have just worsened naturally, but Itachi could've also stopped medicating or caught an additional infection.

During the actual battle, we see Itachi struggling with several more symptoms. He suffers from vision loss as well as from hemoptysis (bloody coughing) and what appears to be a heart attack or otherwise intense chest pain.

After the end of the battle, White Zetsu also theorizes that Itachi's symptoms may have simply been caused by the Sharingan, only for Black Zetsu to voice his uncertainty. An odd reaction, considering that Zetsu is one of the few characters that should be fairly knowledgeable about the Sharingan and its drawbacks. This implies that Itachi's symptoms are atypical of your usual Sharingan overuse.

Medication

Obito later explains that Itachi's illness was terminal and demanded regular medication to prolong the patient's lifespan. Obito unfortunately does not comment on the origins of Itachi's illness or any of his symptoms, though.

While not necessarily canon, in "Naruto Jinraiden: The Day the Wolf Howled", Itachi uses a drug called "Kotaro", which uses hallucinogenic substances. It is applied via the eyes and also helps with irritation of the Mangekyo Sharingan.

Popular Diagnoses

Once again, Itachi's symptoms are rather vague, befitting the Cough of Death trope. But some people have still managed to find likely candidates for real-world equivalents.

One such candidate is obviously Tuberculosis. It matches some of Itachi's symptoms, such as his coughing up blood, chest pain, weight loss, and tiredness. Another Tumblr user pointed out, however, that Tuberculosis is highly infectious. Had Itachi contracted the disease, other Akatsuki members would've fallen ill as well, not to mention Sasuke who came into contact with Itachi's blood and was supposed to inherit his eyes. This would've been beyond careless of Itachi. Any infectious, terminal diseases can therefore be safely ruled out.

The same user argued that Itachi may have had Lupus or ITP, both of which are immunological and therefore better suited for Itachi's diagnosis. It should be noted, however, that Itachi does not express many symptoms associated with Lupus, such as joint swelling, rashes, and skin lesions, and ITP is not particularly known (if at all) for hemoptysis.

The most popular theory is probably that Itachi had MPA. It is known for bloody coughs, cardiac failure, fatigue, weight loss, and in rare cases it may damage the eyes. But there are also people who disagree with the MPA theory, mostly due to his young age (which is atypical for MPA patients), but also because MPA causes diffuse alveolar hemorrhage, which the original poster deems more severe than just hemoptysis. While Itachi's symptoms match MPA somewhat, it might not be a perfect match.

But Itachi could have also died of lung cancer, Sarcoidosis, AIDS, SLD, Viral Perimyocarditis, Pneumonia, Paragonomiasis, Lymphoma, or something entirely different, due to the vagueness of his symptoms. But since we are talking about a fictional universe, it could also be a fictional disease or even a disease that attacks fictional parts of ninjas' anatomy (such as Tenketsu, Chakra Pathways, etc.).

And while I do like the idea of Itachi just being hated by life itself (vocaloid reference, haha) and developing a terminal condition on top of all his other sufferings, I could also see it being a manifestation of his guilt and trauma rather than just simply being an unrelated burden the universe put on him. Heartbreak Syndrome, basically.

Exploring Alternative Causes

Another way to explain Itachi's symptoms is by finding alternative causes. Believe it or not, but it is not 100% certain that Itachi had a disease in the traditional sense at all.

Obito Is a Liar

One of the reasons why is that Obito, unfortunately, is a liar. Especially in his conversation with Sasuke, his goal is to make Itachi as sympathetic to Sasuke as possible and demonize Konoha. Both are in an attempt to win over Sasuke's loyalty and Obito is not at all afraid of lying to Sasuke.

This is hinted at in the Databooks but also becomes evident in certain instances where Obito's exposition simply proves wrong - most notably the cause behind the Ninetails Attack. Obito's words directly clash with Itachi's and later Kushina's flashbacks.

Not to mention, Black Zetsu appears noticeably confused about Itachi's condition, leaving us to question how Obito acquired this much information on Itachi in the first place, if not through the Akatsuki's spy. Is Obito really this knowledgeable about Itachi? Would Itachi's condition really have been terminal? Did Itachi have his condition treated with medicine? Or is it all just a shot in the dark on Obito's part?

Long story short, we cannot trust Obito's word when making any claims about canon.

But now, let's find the promised alternative explanations.

Itachi's BMI Is a Lifestyle

To begin with, most of the Akatsuki members actually have low BMIs. Obviously, Nagato is severely underweight, but even characters like Sasori and Hidan score quite low. The average among the Akatsuki appears to be at 17.8 (or 18.2 if we exclude outliers like Nagato, Konan, and Kisame). This might reflect the Akatsukis' precarious living conditions or just the standard Ninja physique, rather than indicating any specific ailments among the Akatsuki members.

Of course, Kisame still manages to somehow reach a healthy BMI, but this might be the result of their respective diets rather than Itachi just magically losing weight. While Itachi dislikes steak (which has high calories and protein) he eats less nutritious foods like onigiri with seaweed, dango, and cabbage. Meanwhile, Kisame loves shrimp and crab (which are high in protein). And beyond that, Itachi could be suffering from mental illness instead, impacting his eating habits.

It should also be noted that low BMIs (as well as stress and trauma) can weaken the body's immune system and impair its ability to fight off common infections.

No Training, No Stamina

As previously mentioned, while Itachi's low stamina is highly unusual among characters of comparable caliber, it is just a small difference of 0.5 points. It might merely be the result of his fighting style which relies primarily on genjutsu or quick and painless assassinations rather than physically taxing maneuvers. This would be similar to Might Guy, who has a 2.5 deficit in hand seals due to a lack of practice.

But this explanation still begins to sound less sufficient when we look back at the manga itself. Itachi's interactions with Kisame in chapters #353 and #364 imply a certain frailty beyond just a simple lack of practice. But this is where Itachi's Sharingan becomes relevant.

Mangekyo and Susano'o Side Effects

Many fans underestimate the damage a Mangekyo Sharingan can inflict on its user. Most notably, the Mangekyo causes the user's eye to bleed and become irritated. Their eyesight deteriorates with repeated use until full blindness. (refer back to chapter #386). Those are not symptoms specific to Itachi at all and can therefore not exactly be traced back to any disease.

Additionally, the Mangekyo does not just affect the user's eyes. In the case of Susano'o specifically, it is stated to be hard on the user's body. Sasuke describes it as an unbearable pain affecting every cell in his body. And to top it off, it causes hemoptysis for Sasuke as well each time the Susano'o is in use.

It appears as though hemoptysis is not at all exclusive to Itachi but a Susano'o-specific symptom. It doesn't change that Zetsu remains puzzled about Itachi's bloody cough, so we have to assume Zetsu might just not be as much of an expert as previously assumed.

Assuming Itachi had already used the Susano'o at a point in time prior to his battle with Sasuke, it is possible that this jutsu has damaged Itachi's cells.

Since we know that the body's cells are partially responsible for chakra production, cell damage should logically impact a ninja's ability to produce chakra. Assuming Susano'o-conducted damage is at all permanent and that Itachi has ever used it prior to his battle with Sasuke, this may have caused an irreversible chakra shortage for Itachi.

Sharingan Side Effects and Chakra Depletion

In general, besides the Susano'o, the Mangekyo is known for wearing out its users. Not just Kakashi, who famously ends up in the hospital each time he uses it, but Itachi too requires long rests after using the Mangekyo. Notably, Kisame describes using the Mangekyo as "dangerous".

Even the standard Sharingan can deplete the user's chakra to the point of being immobilized. As we can see in early Naruto chapters, the Sharingan can put Kakashi out of commission for a weak (refer to chapter #16). It appears as though chakra exhaustion causes muscle weakness (inability to move) and fatigue.

While not as extreme, this would explain Itachi's fatigue in his interaction with Kisame in chapter #353. In this chapter, we can see that Itachi's Sharingan has remained active for an unknown period of time and likely robbed Itachi of a portion of his chakra. If this is something he did regularly, it might also explain Kisame's concern for Itachi.

If we think about this one further, it could be argued that the heart, due to being a muscle, can fail in the case of excessive chakra exhaustion.

My Thoughts and Theories

Itachi's vision loss and hemoptysis can clearly be attributed to his excessive Mangekyo and Susano'o use, as far as I am concerned. And right now, all of Itachi's symptoms can be logically explained without adding an unknown disease into the mix.

Although Zetsu still remains an unreliable source in this instance (due to not knowing that hemoptysis is a common symptom induced in response to using Susano'o) it should be noted that unlike with Itachi, this does not result in a lethal outcome for Sasuke who, as opposed to Itachi, uses his Susano'o constantly. When hypothesizing that Itachi's body may have been damaged from the beginning, he probably wasn't far off. This is also what Itachi's interactions with Kisame seem to imply.

While Itachi's Mangekyo use and chakra exhaustion probably put the final nail in his coffin, it stands to reason that his body was prestressed by yet another condition that shrunk down his chakra reserves and left him, in Kisame's eyes, "frail". It's comparable to how many diseases such as AIDS, Diabetes, autoimmune diseases, or other conditions don't kill you on their own but instead lay the groundwork for a truly lethal illness.

But even then, this pre-sustained damage has logical explanations as well. His low fat could be the result of his lifestyle. His low stamina and chakra may be the result of repeated Sharingan/Susano'o use or a lack of practice. His heart attack may have been the result of ordinary chakra exhaustion. His immune system may have been weakened due to his low weight (but then again, he is not significantly underweight), stress, and/or trauma, resulting in the contraction of a regular infection as Itachi stood in the rain without protection. This explains his seemingly "sudden" decrease in battle performance.

Conversely, it is not unreasonable to assume Itachi indeed had an incurable condition - unrelated to Sharingan's drawbacks. While Obito and Zetsu are not at all reliable sources, they do push the "Itachi was ill" narrative rather hard and the story never cares enough to dispel their claims.

Beyond that, Itachi's symptoms can be viewed as a causality dilemma. What was first? The chicken or the egg? The immune system or the illness? While low weight, stress, and/or trauma can result in frequent infections, so can a major infection lead to increased stress or low weight. While blaming Itachi's poor condition on his lifestyle is a valid interpretation, it is not at all confirmed.

Narratively, it makes a lot of sense to burden Itachi with a painful, incurable disease. Aside from externalizing Itachi's suffering to the outside, where the audience can see it, it manages to evoke stronger sympathy from the reader, mixing in a sense of unfairness and tragedy.

But alas, this is not sufficient evidence, and instead, we could also view Itachi's damaged condition as a metaphor for how very often, life does not leave Itachi with any options other than harming himself. Due to his growing blindness, he is forced to use his Sharingan more frequently. Due to his status as Nukenin, he cannot take care of himself as diligently. And then those minor inconveniences spiral out of control, piling ailment after ailment on him.

Unfortunately, none of this leaves us with a definitive answer. Perhaps Itachi did have a terminal illness. Perhaps he did not. The story seems intentionally ambiguous.

[purpurussy]

hi. once you mentioned your thoughts on the take that phil stayed in the closet for dan. could you share it again with the class again. sorry

⚠️ Dan and Phil DNI⚠️

dsfhjjkl I fear I'm not well-educated enough on the lore to have an accurate take. and it's really the notion that he "went back in the closet" for dan that bothers me. but I'll try to explain how I see it and people can feel free to link me to the vitally important receipts that I'm missing here which change the whole narrative lmao

the thing is I don't think it was 100% because of dan. i do think phil would have come out sooner if dan had been in a better headspace with everything, but imo it's not entirely accurate to say that phil would have been out and proud on youtube the entire time otherwise because as far as I can tell, he wasn't ever in that position 😭 would an out and proud man have made snokoplasm.

I think phil was referring to himself as bi on myspace but so was dan back in the day. and I think id'ing as bi in a setting where you don't expect that many people to see it beyond your personal network is a very different kettle of fish from being completely vulnerable and honest about your identity as a full-on celebrity. Phil has also told anecdotes that make me feel like he had 1 foot in the closet and 1 foot out in some ways (eg auditioning for big brother and then being terrified that they'd post his audition tape bc he said he was gay and then instantly regretted it, getting outed to his family by a friend when he was in college and having an awful time with that whole situation) and I certainly haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe he was ever really out as gay (and proud) on youtube at any point before 2019. Phil has also alluded to experiencing internalized homophobia/feeling like there was something wrong with him for being gay, and I feel like people gloss over that since it wasn't as severe as Dan's experiences.

so I don't think it's entirely accurate to say phil "went back in the closet" for dan firstly because I don't think he was ever fully out of the closet until 2019. he was certainly not out and proud with 0 caveats. like he never said it with his whole chest until coty.

then there's the fact that there can be real-world consequences to coming out which can be hard to predict or manage. things are a little different now but I can imagine it would have been tough trying to do a risk-benefit analysis of coming out when they were working with the BBC, trying to get things like world tours and book deals off the ground, and also I think they were probably not hugely financially secure back then (especially very early on/around the time they moved to London). like this is pure conjecture, but I can imagine it could have been tough to come out as gay, not knowing if you'd be inadvertently tanking a career opportunity because oh never mind we already have an openly gay radio presenter on this show and we don't need 2 more, or oh no don't do that because then we'll have to cancel the shows in Russia and Malaysia or whatever ykwim? (I assumed this was also part of the reason why dan had a breakdown about wanting to come out before II started but again that's based on nothing lmao)

now that I'm thinking about nick grimshaw coming out as gay in 2012 and co-hosting the radio show with them I feel like I'm connecting some dots but again this is just me yapping. I remember finding out he was gay back then and I vaguely remember people posting about feeling "betrayed" or being otherwise homophobic towards him but I can't remember whether the general reaction was positive or negative at the time. I also feel like there's something to be said for the fact that a lot of actors/people in situations like this feel like they're competing against other members of their marginalized community, because they can't both be hired for 2 different important roles because there can only be 1 token gay/poc or whatever. anyway food for thought I guess

I also think it's easy to assume Phil was just chilling the entire time since he plays his cards a lot closer to his chest than Dan. he doesn't like to talk about stuff like this as openly as dan and i think that results in us focusing a lot more on Dan's experiences (which makes sense since that's the information we have to work with, but still). he's hinted that it was rough for him to deal with the speculation about them and their relationship back in the day as well, and while I'm the last person to encourage people to start self-flagellating for the demon era, I do think it's worth considering that it can't have been easy for Phil either (I mean it was his face and words in the v-day video. I would have probably been institutionalized if that happened to me I'm just saying. the factors that led to dans no homo era can't have been easy for Phil to deal with either)

point is I think there were a lot of factors that kept them both in the closet. I do agree of course that Phil would've come out sooner if it weren't for dan needing to work through his issues before he was ready to come out (Phil has certainly said as much) but I don't think it's the only reason. I think it was certainly a show of the trust and respect he has for dan that he waited for Dan to be ready in the end, but I also think it's inaccurate when people talk as though dan singlehandedly kept Phil in no homo jail for 10 years and he would've been out and proud the entire time if Dan hadn't had a mountain of trauma and internalized homophobia to work through before he was ready to come out (which as dan himself has said, may have been a lot sooner than 2019, but there were other factors that kept him from being able to do that first)

[throes-of-warm-tornadoes]

okay no offense but i’m not a fan of Five finding his “real life” dolores. like, that diva was literally a coping mechanism for him. a tangible reminder that he was so lonely that he made a literal piece of plastic his companion. i think the idea of it is sweet but at the end of the day i think that if Five did find someone romantically it should be someone that makes him feel silly and carefree, not someone that is a fleshy replica of an Apocalyptic Souvenir

[thekidsarentalright]

Hey, I've seen a lot of reasonable discussions about Gabe's zionism and I thought his latest comment on his initial post would be worth sharing. It was posted about 20min ago

It's not a perfect response, but I think it honestly is pretty acceptable. What are your thoughts?

thank you very much for sharing this with me! though i’m, of course, no expert on this my initial reaction to reading that is to agree with you- it isn’t perfect, but the level of self-reclection and accountability being taken by him there Is better than anything i could’ve hoped for. it’s a step in the right direction, i think, and i can only hope he continues showing this level or more of growth and education on what is happening in palestine and that his previous behavior and statements were Not acceptable. perhaps it’s the bare minimum or Veryyy close to it considering the harmful rhetoric he had been sharing, but some level of growth from that is still reassuring to witness.