#jonerys meta

[hamliet]

Hi! I just want to say I love your alchemy meta posts related to asoiaf! So many things clicked after reading them. Wanted to ask, you mentioned that Dany/Jon have an active/passive motif in their respective arcs, can you elaborate on that? Does it refer to their future arc in TWOW? (Dany going all out on slavery/conquest, Jon adopting a more apathetic attitude to the impeding doom of the Long Night...)

Hi!! So, you're here to nag me about the meta I said I would write and never did despite outlining it, yes, fair enough. (I'm kidding with you! Thanks actually for this kick in the pants.)

It's actually a motif for both Jon and Dany's arcs throughout the entire story. So let's start by redefining again what the point of passive/active is. In alchemy, the main goal is the "union of opposites," usually embodied in two characters in literature. The classic opposites tend to have the following motifs/symbols associated with them:

Male: Sun, sulphur, fire and air, hot and dry, red, gold, heart, active.

Female: Moon, mercury (or quicksilver), earth and water, cool and moist, white, silver, mind, passive.

ASOIAF switches the genders, which is very interesting. Jon is marked as white, water (snow), has qualities of mercury (mercury can shift states very easily; Jon goes undercover), is cunning, is of course associated with the cold north. Dany...

Well, Dany actually starts A Game of Thrones as passive (not wanting to marry Drogo and begging Viserys not to make her), but by the end of the first book she is fully active. This actually fits her other "alchemical" motifs because she starts off as white, the "moon of [Drogo's] life,", silver, etc. but by the end of the first book is reborn out of fire, and is therefore marked as sun, sulfur, gold, fire and air (flying on fire-breathing dragons), hot and dry (the territory of Essos), etc.

And of course, Dany is active, while Jon is passive. Let's go through the books, shall we? The active/passive motif exists in relationships as well as their internal motivations/personal goals.

Let's compare their (romantic/sexual) relationships first. Jon is reluctant to get involved with Ygritte and only does when there is little choice; he is attracted to her, so I wouldn't say it's nonconsensual, but there's also certainly an element of "do it or die." Dany also had little choice with Drogo, but by the middle of AGOT she's the one initiating public sex with him without any shame.

Jon's other quasi-romantic relationship so far is with Val, which thus far is (and likely will forever remain) unconsummated, with Jon fully committing to never violating his vows again. He also refuses to marry Val even though doing so would be politically expedient for Stannis. In contrast, Daenerys initiates with Daario, and she is the one who decides to marry Hizdahr even though she doesn't want to, for reasons of political expedience. She's actively making these choices.

It's even present in how they treat subordinates in regards to sex. Dany has sex with Irri and feels guilty for it, because even if Irri is happy to do so, she's still Dany's servant, and Dany knows there's an uncomfortable power dynamic there and expressly feels guilt over it. Jon is instead defined by what he doesn't do: his brothers of the Night's Watch spread rumors about him and Satin, but the reality is that nothing is going on and there probably isn't any attraction there either. Dany takes action; Jon does nothing and thinks that it'll all blow over and people will come to accept Satin, when that is very naive. (I'm not saying Jon is doing anything wrong; he's not. It's just an interesting parallel I noticed.)

Then let's talk their purposes and internal motivations. Jon defines himself as illegitimate, as Ned Stark's bastard. Daenerys defines herself as the rightful heir to the Targaryen dynasty. How does this translate into active vs passive?

Daenerys is active in regards to protecting slaves and freeing them. She just doesn't always do it wisely. But she intervenes and stops several assaults and frees people, crowning herself queen in Meereen to stay queen.

Jon, on the other hand, is a lot more passive. He refuses to help Gilly when she asks for help at the visit to Craster's because it's just not done and would violate his vows. Jon is forced by Qhorin Halfhand to go undercover with the Wildings; literally, he's pushed into it. Even when he is elected as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, he did not campaign for himself nor seek it out. It's passivity, and a sharp contrast to Daenerys's deliberate seeking of power.

However, what they both do with power is very similar. Daenerys wants to free people and save them. Jon, too, wants to save the Wildlings. They can't help but empathize with people mistreated around them. Daenerys definitely sees herself in slaves (sold to Drogo), in sexual assault victims (again, Drogo), and in people forcibly taken to strange lands (being raised in Essos, always on the run). Jon sees himself in the Wildlings, always defined as an "other" despite being very human (Wildlings and bastards are treated differently for no legitimate reason). Both struggle with duty vs passion, with Dany choosing duty (Hizdahr) over passion (Daario), and Jon of course as well (choosing the Night's Watch over Ygritte and over Val).

As for the future, well. Every character tends to become "the monster you think I am," to quote Tyrion. What is the monster everyone thinks Daenerys is? What is the monster everyone thinks Jon is?

The Mad King's Daughter.

Bastards are craven.

Both quotes occur multiple times in every single book. Both Jon and Dany try to define themselves as different from this. Jon refuses to be craven. Dany is in denial about who her father was, but there's also a level wherein she worries about her own sanity, so she suspects something.

Both Jon and Dany also make an opposite decision in A Dance With Dragons. Jon finally chooses to be active and march south; the problem is that this completely destroys duty and is foolish. Dany chooses to be passive and robes herself in white and pearls again in her marriage to Hizdahr. It just... doesn't work out for either of them.

Both have tried so hard, and gotten nothing. They're going to sink into their flaws, their tendencies towards activity and passivity, and also become the monsters people think they are. HOWEVER. Their arcs are not going to end with them as monsters. They need to see what they are capable of becoming to truly face their demons and overcome them.

Daenerys is going to go on the warpath in The Winds of Winter. I think that's very clear from her final chapter in A Dance With Dragons. She tried to temper herself. She chained her dragons. She married a Meereenese man. She let the fighting pits reopen. It hasn't brought the peace she's been seeking. I think she'll use fire and blood to subdue her enemies and take Westeros.

Jon, on the other hand, has just been killed. Melisandre is clearly going to resurrect him. He wanted to march south and ditch duty before he died, and I don't doubt he'll ditch duty. Why hang around the Night's Watch when they just killed you? He's probably going to sink into apathy, especially once he finds out that Arya is not the girl in need of rescue. His family is nowhere around him. He was just killed by his new "brothers." Why bother? Why keep caring? Why keep trying? I definitely see him ditching the Watch but not coming to Stannis's aid either.

Also, both will get a reveal about their parents. Dany will learn that the Mad King was truly evil when King's Landing blows up in her face in a green blur of her dad's wildfyre. Jon will learn he's actually not Ned Stark's bastard... not even his son, in fact. Dany's reveal will be a result of her action, Jon's will almost certainly be a reveal from someone else to him, not his own searching. Dany will be horrified because of what her father wanted to do and what she committed (even if she didn't mean to go so far), while Jon will be horrified by what was omitted by the man he thought was his father.

But the answers to their problems can be found through each other. Jon will find his family again--his siblings Arya, Bran, maybe Rickon, and Sansa--and meet Sam again, too. He'll find love with Daenerys, someone who has messed up atrociously and still wants to do good. And he'll find out that being a Targaryen is not a taint through her; even when you'e messed up, you can still be a hero. Daenerys will be wondering why on earth she even has her dragons and how she can possibly rule after leaving the city in ashes, and along come the Others. She's the only one who can defeat them. She'll just have killed f!Aegon (likely unintentionally) and knew he was a fraud, but here's an actual family member. She's not the last Targaryen; instead of seeing that as a threat, I think she'll see it as a comfort eventually. Dany will help Jon remember his duty again, and Jon will help Dany love and be loved again, and together they'll save the world.

[daenerystargaryen06]

"How beautiful, the queen tried to tell herself, but inside her was some foolish little girl who could not help but look about for Daario. If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off his northern girl, the girl in her insisted, but the queen knew that was folly..." -A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys VII

"I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb." -A Storm of Swords -Jon XII

Daenerys wanting Daario to carry her off at sword point, and Jon thinking of stealing Val for her love. Two parallels of one girl wanting to be stolen, and one boy wanting to steal someone. Both for love.

"None of them had ever seen a direwolf before, he realized, and Ghost was twice as large as the common wolves that prowled their southron greenwoods. As he walked toward the armory, Jon chanced to look up and saw Val standing in her tower window. I'm sorry, he thought. I'm not the man to steal you out of there." -A Storm of Swords - Jon XII

"Even if her captain was mad enough to attempt it, the Brazen Beasts would cut him down before he got within a hundred yards of her." -A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys VII

Jon is sorry he can't steal away Val, and Daenerys reflects on the fact that even if Daario did attempt to carry her off at sword point, he'd be cut down.

Both Jon and Daenerys have a sense of romanticism in their POV's. Both are hopeless romantics (perhaps Daenerys more so than Jon in a sense). Both want love, despite denying it deep down. Jon because he's a man of the Night's Watch and a bastard. Daenerys because she is a Queen over her people and accepts duty over giving in to "girlish" thoughts.

Both had found love within confinement. Jon having fallen for Ygritte while pretending to be on the Freefolk's side. Daenerys having found a twisted love in Drogo after being sold to him as a bridal slave. Both were coerced into sexual relations with Ygritte and Drogo. Both had to watch Ygritte and Drogo die (and Dany killed Drogo out of mercy).

"He found Ygritte sprawled across a patch of old snow beneath the Lord Commander's Tower, with an arrow between her breasts. The ice crystals had settled over her face, and in the moonlight it looked as though she wore a glittering silver mask [...] "Oh." Ygritte cupped his cheek with her hand. "You know nothing, Jon Snow," she sighed, dying. -A Storm of Swords - Jon VII

"And when the bleak dawn broke over an empty horizon, Dany knew that he was truly lost to her. “When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east,” she said sadly. “When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When my womb quickens again, and I bear a living child. Then you will return, my sun-and-stars, and not before.” Never, the darkness cried, never never never. Inside the tent Dany found a cushion, soft silk stuffed with feathers. She clutched it to her breasts as she walked back out to Drogo, to her sun-and-stars. If I look back I am lost. It hurt even to walk, and she wanted to sleep, to sleep and not to dream. She knelt, kissed Drogo on the lips, and pressed the cushion down across his face." -A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

Both Jon and Daenerys have also found interest again after the deaths of Ygritte and Drogo. Jon wants Val, and Daenerys sleeps with Daario and may perhaps love him, but doubts over her relations with Daario. Both focus on their duties over giving in to what they really want. Daenerys even marries again for peace over giving in to what she really wants.

Both Jon and Daenerys think of having children, but push away the ideal. Jon due to being a member of the Night's Watch and a bastard. Daenerys due to thinking she is barren/cursed by Mirri Maz Duur and can never again have a child born from her.

Jon reflects that if he ever had a son, he'd name him Robb after his brother. Daenerys when pregnant with Drogo's child names her son Rhaego after her brother.

Jon is the secret son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Lyanna is associated with blue winter roses:

"He was walking through the crypts beneath Winterfell, as he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. "Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood." -A Game of Thrones - Eddard XIII

"Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost." -A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

When Daenerys has visions in the House of the Undying, she sees the Wall:

"A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . ." -A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Jon is the 'blue flower' she sees growing from the wall of ice, filling the air with 'sweetness'. Jon is Lyanna's son. Both carry blue flower representation.

Jon also wants to know everything there is about his mother; who she was, if she loved him, what sort of person she was. Just alike to how Daenerys wants to learn and know everything she can about Rhaegar, as she also idolizes him in a sense. Both have thoughts about these people. Jon constantly thinks about his mother (Lyanna even if he does not know yet who she is); Daenerys often thinks of Rhaegar (despite never knowing him). Both think of these people despite them already being gone from the world, and both only wish they could have known who they truly were as people and can only guess how Lyanna and Rhaegar would've thought or acted.

Jon thinks of having dragons at the Wall:

"We should have twenty trebuchets, not two, and they should be mounted on sledges and turntables so we could move them. It was a futile thought. He might as well wish for another thousand men, and maybe a dragon or three." -A Storm of Swords - Jon VIII

When Jon dies, Daenerys hears a wolf howling in the distance:

"Off in the distance, a wolf howled. The sound made her feel sad and lonely, but no less hungry. As the moon rose above the grasslands, Dany slipped at last into a restless sleep." -A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys X

Both have an association/thought relating to one another's animal sigil/companion. Jon thinks of wishing for three dragons (Daenerys' house sigil and her dragon children). Daenerys hears a wolf howling when Jon dies, making her feel sad and lonely (Jon's house sigil through Lyanna/Ned and his direwolf Ghost).

Both Jon and Daenerys dream of home. Daenerys with the house with the red door and the lemon tree. Jon with Winterfell.

Both are estranged from their families (Jon being at the Wall. Daenerys being in Essos and the last of her family having died).

Both have lost their brothers in different means. Both have had their mothers die from childbirth and never got to meet them. Both of their fathers (Rhaegar and Aerys) died during the Rebellion.

Both had arcs of leadership and rule, and struggle with their decisions and making hard choices. Jon winds up killed due to his choices at the end of ADWD, and Daenerys becomes stranded in the Dothraki Sea due to her choice of saving Drogon (and her people from Drogon) from the fighting pit and escaping on dragonback.

While Daenerys thinks of taking the IT as a duty due to being the last of her family and Viserys' last living heir, Jon admits to wanting to become Lord of Winterfell but turning the opportunity away.

[a-secret-bolton-vampire]

Something has been bugging me lately; why is it that so much of the ASOIAF fandom hates romance? Like, this is a problem I've noticed and it's honestly kind of weird. To be sure, George's view on what is romantic is, uh, dubious at best, but to outright be so against it the way I've seen some people be against it is quite bizarre, to say the least.

Rhaegar and Lyanna? Of course there's no romance there! Rhaegar clearly was just using Lyanna as a baby factory to produce a super prophecy child because that's all there is to his character!

Jon and Daenerys? They won't be getting together like that dumb show! And if they are, it will be purely a political marriage! No lovey dovey stuff there!. After all Dany likes "bad boys" (which somehow translates to "evil men") so why would she like a strong, assertive man like Jon? And why would Jon like her? Not like he likes strong fiery tempered women!

Those are the two biggest examples but there is more. Daemon Blackfyre and Daenerys Targaryen are more ambiguous since they are historical characters, but a lot of people are convinced it was 100% unrequited love.

I've even seen fans complain about the line from Barristan where he thinks about how Bittersteel and Bloodraven's rivalry over the affections of Shiera Seastar caused the Blackfyre Rebellions. Like sure it wasn't the only reason, but to think that jealousy and romance didn't have an effect on those rebellions is a bit weird.

Yes, I am aware these are some problematic pairings, not least of which because most of these are pretty incestuous. However, the complaints about these romances do not stem from a moral quandary. In the case of R+L, you see people calling Rhaegar a groomer and pedophile (see my post on him on my full thoughts there), but the majority of it is simply "well it's stupid because they told no one and caused a whole war, the selfish brats" (bonus points if someone specifically targets Lyanna).

Okay, setting aside the fact that, like with the Blackfyre Rebellions, Robert's Rebellion was caused by far more factors than their elopement, why does making it an abduction Rhaegar did simply for a magic messiah baby make it a better story than the fact these two were in love and desperate to escape situations they felt trapped in, leading to shortsighted decisions that had an unexpected affect on many people?

With Jon and Dany, the backlash is "but that's so cliche! George wouldn't do something as cliche as two of the biggest protagonists falling in love." As if George doesn't constantly engage with cliche storybeats as often or even more than he subverts them. Even when the evidence for the two getting together is literally so overwhelming that you'd need to be willfully ignorant to ignore the foreshadowing (plus the fact George literally said that their union is "the point of the series").

And again, I must ask; why is Jon and Dany marrying to secure a political alliance without any real love between them a better story than an epic, doomed romance between two people who have gone through such similar struggles and have such similar personalities? What does R+L=J even exist for if they are just a couple of convenience using each other?

I'm not saying you have to love and ship all these people together. Because we sometimes forget our little fandom bubble, most people are not okay with even fictional incest ships. That's okay. Sometimes it's not even incest ships, but again, that's okay! We are all different and have our preferences! Some might not even care much for romance.

But the way a lot of this is criticized doesn't read like that. It's always focusing on the negative aspects. Especially with Dany's love interests. I'm not a fan of Daario and Dany, personally, but it is a bit uncomfortable how she is targeted so heavily for thinking and getting horny about him. Like... let a girl be horny and infatuated? Lol, I don't know!

With Rhaegar and Lyanna, Prince Duncan the Small and Jenny of Oldstones, the "problem" is that their disregard for political betrothals and following their hearts makes them stupid monsters who are directly responsible for the deaths of thousands. That is absolutely not the way we should take these romances.

These doomed, tragic affairs aren't about how people are selfish. It's about the power of love. The way love makes people act rashly. The way love consumes someones thoughts and feelings. Love is powerful, it is transformative, transcending. That is the point. Even in spite of the death and chaos occurring around it, the love these people have for each other is something that cannot be broken.

I feel like the fandom has taken the wrong approach to this series tone and themes. I'm not George's biggest personal fan, to be quite honest, but he is a self described romantic. Turning Rhaegar from a lovestruck prince to a selfish crazed maniac is not romantic. Turning romance or potential romance into cold political maneuvers is not romantic.

The point of all this is that, yes, the world is dark. It's scary, it's cruel, unforgiving, and cold. But in that darkness, there are pockets of light that shine and make you feel safe, and warm, and happy. It makes you forget all the troubles around you. That light, that warmth, that love, is worth fighting for, even if it's all that is left, even if it doesn't last.

I am of course, slightly biased in my assessment, lmao. You could say that me, being a bisexual polyamorous transfemme, is maybe a bit of a big fan of romance and love! Yet, it still saddens me that people try to keep romances from just being romances, and try to make the story and world more bleak as a result. We already have Ramsay, Joffrey, Gregor, Euron, Randyll Tarly. We have people who use love against others for their own gain or outright reject it violently. We don't need more of that.

[dragonsfromthemoon]

Both Jon and Dany have a father figure/mentor nicknamed “Old Bear”: Jeor Mormont e Willem Darry, respectively. 🥺

[maid-with-sunset-in-her-hair]

an opinion that drives fans mad sometimes is the thought that dæny might have an alliance with euron if he pulls of his charm on her and the fact is the show had him randomly obsessed with cersei another queen when in the books he's obsessed with dæny and she has pretty weird taste in men, i don't believe she had a healthy relationship with drogo but she seems to like strong edgelord ish men so euron being charming towards her and tricking her isnt impossible

I'm pretty sure those fans are angry because they want her to hook up with Jon and have his magical inbreed babies as soon as possible, and feel threatened by other ships, even if they're obviously doomed by the narrative.

But from a political standpoint, it makes sense she'll form an alliance with Euron. It was repeated multiple times in her chapters that she needs the support of some of the local lords to take back the throne, because otherwise she will be seen as an invader and everyone will band together against her. The problem is that a true ally wants something out of an alliance, nobody is going to die for a stranger for nothing. And unfortunately for Daenerys, the local lords of Westeros either want independence from the Iron Throne (Iron Islands, North, Riverlands, probably the Vale), are already allied with Aegon VI (the Martells, the Tyrells after Cersei blows up the Sept) or are afraid of any Targaryen taking the throne for fear of retribution after Robert's Rebellion (the former STAB + L alliance). If she joined any of them, she would have to give something up, be the northern kingdoms, her claim to the Iron Throne or her desire to avenge her family.

But Euron isn't interested in political matters, he just wants to sacrifice her in a magic ritual to attain godhood or something insane like that, so he will accept whatever terms she wants just to get close to her. As you said, her type seems to be strong confident warriors with no fashion sense, and she already had nightmares about fucking a man with blue lips, so my prediction is that Euron will offer her the Greyjoy fleet in exchange of a marriage alliance. Marrying a man shes attracted to for a political alliance will seem like a small price to pay, a solution to the conflict between duty and desire she experienced with Daario and Hizdahr, but it will cost her too much in the end.

[docpiplup]

I'm starting to do a re-read of Jon and Dany's POV chapters, and it's very interesting that just starting their chapters of AGOT, Jon I and Daenerys I, some parallels can be noticed between them

It's the first POV chapters for both characters, so the ones in which we get to know them (although Jon has appeared previously on Bran I, we get a different perspective, Bran perspective in Jon is like the older cool and calm brother, but now we get to know Jon's inner thoughts) and the main part of Jon I and Daenerys I are set on a feast.

Both are observant young teens that attend to a feast, for example we note that Dany and Jon make descriptions of many of the attendants at the feast and see some details like desdain and anger of Cersei during the feast, and even Benjen pleases or Dany noticing that Illyrio's sweet words are just mere and false words to please Viserys, which Viserys believes without reasoning and wholeheartedly.

Jon

.....

Dany

.....

Feasts in which both Dany and Jon will start their journey, one that both they'll have to start despite they don't want to, Jon joining the NW because he doesn't fit in Winterfell because he's a bastard and Dany because she has to marry Drogo due to Viserys' interests to conquer Westeros.

Also this idea fits with the following quotes, Jon and Dany thinking they would give anything to be in other simpler situation:

Jon

Dany

[evax3]

Heya! I wanted to ask you… do you have any hope that the books will come out and we’ll finally know the real ending? And what do you think Jon and Dany’s endings will be? I keep on being optimistic we will get the real ending. And all I need for it to be perfect is Dany and Arya and Jon (my three favorites) surviving and being able to find peace and happiness after the hells they all suffered. As much as I want Dany and Jon to be King and Queen, I’ll settle for them living. But what do you think?

Hello my friend, thank you for the ask!! :)

regarding the books, I'm sure we’ll get to know the ending some day, one way or another. Whether they'll ever be published, I have little hope, but never say never. At least I assume that after his death there will be a "GRRM – Unpublished Works" collection or something similar in which we can read chapters from Winds and Dream of Spring as well as many other short stories about our faves. 

As for Dany and Jon’s ending, I highly recommend @hamliet 's meta’s. I love reading all of them but especially the analysis of Dany as a romantic heroine. It tells us so much about what we should expect for her endgame and why (it all makes so much sense!!). 

I assume Dany will set King’s Landing on fire. Not intentionally, but because her father hid the Wildfire under the city and Daenerys will accidentally blow it up with her dragons fighting against f!Aegon. I don't see her killing innocent people as some collateral damage, but I see her fighting her enemies with fire and blood (which imo makes all the difference).

The incident in KL will throw her into a crisis and I think only with Jon's help she’ll get out of it and pick herself up to fight with him against the real enemy aka the Others (I’m sure their decision to form an alliance is one of the last scenes of TWOW and in ADOS they’re already a couple romantically involved with each other). 

So I guess Winds will be about Dany conquering Westeros while Jon is a little lost, has to deal with the aftermath of his mutiny and then later his parental reveal, while A Dream of Spring will be more about their relationship and the Battle for the Dawn. I think Dany will be Azor Ahai and save Westeros with Jon by her side, but no one will thank them for that because of what happened before in KL (and also the general prejudice against their family). And that this is one of the essential elements that make the ending so bittersweet (as George has indicated). 

She and Jon will be the true heroes, the bastard and the exile, but no one is going to see it or give them credit for that.

GRRM describes himself as a romantic writer and romantic literature is shaped by the fact that it focuses more on the inner conflict than the external conflict. So I assume that all 3 (Arya, Dany and Jon - who are also my favorites) are mainly dealing with their identity crises in the following books. What is their purpose in this world? How do people's expectations fit with their own desires and ambitions? By the end of the story, these questions should be answered.

I think Arya is pretty safe, when it comes to staying alive. I'm not quite so sure about Jonerys/Snowstorm. As much as I want it, because of course I wish for a HEA for my favorite ship, I actually don't see the two of them ruling together. I think they'll fall in love and Dany will get pregnant (because them having a family with each other has been hinted at way too much and unlike D&D, George isn't just doing that only as "clickbait"). But my fear is that only one of them will be able to see their child grow up… 

And I'm not even sure what I actually want for their endgame if anything were possible? Probably to pack up their baby, Ghost and the dragons and then emigrate, lol. Maybe to Lys or somewhere warm? But they both have too much of a hero complex to ever pull that off ❤️

[whateverthedragonswant]

8x01 - Gendrya vs Jonerys

In the dragonriding scene we get:

Jon: "What's wrong with them?"

Dany: "They don't like the North."

And we see Jon's reaction.

Dany doesn't like the North. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. It's stated definitively here.

Jon: "It's pretty cold up here for a Southern girl."

Dany: "Then keep your queen warm."

This is after Dany has said that they could stay up there for 1000 years and no one would find them with Jon replying that they would be pretty old. Not only is Jon suggesting that she shouldn't stay, but he doesn't respond to her romantic suggestion with an answer that someone in love would. It wasn't even played off as teasing by Kit's performance or Emilia's (her reaction to his line). Then when he says that it's too cold, Dany asserts the imbalanced power dynamic between them once more while also getting what she wants.

When you compare that scene (which was probably the most romantic scene Jonerys has in the show), the difference is pretty blatant:

Gendry: "Not a bad place to grow up if it wasn't so cold."

Arya: "Stay close to that forge then."

A huge contrast considering what we saw with Jonerys in the previous scene (yes, they literally had the dragons/waterfall scene right before this one - another tool GoT uses from the tool box very well is editing, in addition to timing and dialogue). Gendry is actually complimenting Arya's home while also mentioning the cold temperatures. (to link it to the previous Jonerys scene) Arya's response, while dismissive on the surface, posing as a very take-it-or-leave-it attitude, literally tells him to stay, while also showing her not pushing Gendry the way Dany did Jon to keep warm (which also makes sense given their relationship isn't there yet).

Gendry: "Oh, is that a command, Lady Stark?"

Arya: "Don't call me that."

Gendry: "As you wish, m'lady."

Here is the teasing that was absent in the waterfall scene. It's a callback to their connection and this joke between them but we also see it in their performances, with Gendry smiling and Arya eventually smiling as well. Not to mention that Arya doesn't enforce the imbalanced power dynamics between them like Dany did with Jon; she doesn't want to be called a Lady even though technically she is a Lady Stark.

The show purposely contrasted these two relationships to showcase the difference: healthy (Gendrya) vs unhealthy (Jonerys), and what blossoming love actually looks like. Even though Arya didn't accept Gendry's proposal in the end and went off sailing, it doesn't mean she didn't have feelings for him (and I think this is partly why they included the love scene for them in the next episode).

Huge. Contrast.

[winterprince601]

jonerys is, in concept, very funny. two targaryens left in the entire world x they could have literally anyone else x but no this aunt MUST marry her nephew x targaryens try not to commit incest challenge - EASY MODE- failed x

[ethereal-elegance]

Banter,flirting,and teasing ain't just all there is to chemistry because all a good romance really-truly needs is bonding,mutual admiration,mutual respect and mutual trust with natural,meaningful development and progression of significance.Not to mention all those shallow insignificant interactions including cheap unconvincing cliché "tension" like "staring" and 'heavy breathing",excessive unnecessary corny,cheesy,sickening,icky "fluff" filler scenes of no substance but to waste screen time are no match for compelling emotionally intimate interactions and scenes in which the characters are vulnerable revealing the human side of themselves without their masks and armor others rarely have the privilege to see due to duty and propriety,which makes for even more compelling characters individually,not just only to develop a relationship.And fluff is only satisfying when the relationship is well developed and has naturally progressed,not forced and contrived out of thin air for fanservice most didn't ask for.

Crackshippers tend invent moments/what doesn't exist and tend to be biased with their rose-colored glasses, cherry-picking for confirmation bias, confusing a dynamic they love/prefer like the majority with chemistry, etc, but conveniently dismiss canon ships actually having what they deluded themselves into believing their crackship has, using every and any excuse they find under the sun to not be convinced, to justify their opposition. Anyone who says got jonerys had no development or progression is confirming they are just biased or ignorant, against the ships for typical unwarranted, unfounded xyz "reasons". There's only so much actors can do with what they've been given. Directing tricks such as heavy breathing, staring, prolonged eye contact, grinning widely and other common, cheap tactics are often used to overcompensate for mediocre chemistry between actors. Writing and dialogue can also make it seem like there's chemistry when there's none. But bad writing, poor written dynamics, bad dialogue, bad directing, and bad editing can also dampen the chemistry they have.

It makes sense Jon "Brooding" Snow would be apprehensive, reluctant and hesitate to become close Daenerys any more than necessary because of what Aerys did to Brandon who provoked the traumatised king and Rickard who tried to save his son. So Jon relationship with Daenerys is practically forbidden. Jon is the type to suppress any feelings that could affect his dedication to his duty. Even he tells Ser Davos there's no time for this after Davos notes Jon's attraction to Daenerys "I saw you looking at her good heart" when Jon said he thinks Daenerys has a good heart after she apologized for her father's atrocities inflicted on his grandfather and uncle.

Jonsa crackshippers who conveniently dismiss the obvious fact that Jon had to fill in Ned's and Robb's shoes out of duty to family and platonic love for them as the eldest of House Stark in favor of conflating their bias towards crackship jonsa is often overlooked. With the imminent threat of the undead army looming over their heads and the possibility of losing lives, Jon seemingly needed to prevent the tragedy and pain if he were to fall in love with Dany and one or both of them were fall in the war. And it doesn't help that Jon was so desperate for acceptance and approval from the North to prove he's worthy of being their king to compensate for his bastardy.

It's strange how antis and detractors of jonerys overlook Jon being younger and less experienced when he was with Ygritte, not to mention the fact that Jon and Dany are canonically dutiful and basically workaholics. There was never any flirting or banter between Daenerys and Khal Drogo, and Ygritte was the only one "flirting/bantering" by belittling, demeaning, and insulting Jon who was always serious and brooding never once really reciprocated especially in that regard anyway. (There's even speculation in the books that jonerys would flirt using taxes.) Those were simpler times compared to S7 when winter was near, so Jon was understandably more broody and pensive + irritable, apprehensive, weary and burdened by the potential impending doom. I suppose Jon's relationship with Ygritte is like how Drogo was Dany's first love despite the complicated abusive power imbalance and Stockholm Syndrome, considering Ygritte canonically coerces Jon who is forced to bed her to survive.

More affection, intimacy, flirting, and banter (mainly from Jon/on his side) could've been incorporated into their relationship if there was enough time allocated in that type of show the opposite of Bridgeton, but people would still complain and criticize with double standards regardless about how it's supposedly out of character and out of place in the context of GoT (as if the entirety of GoT and characters were OOC from the beginning that there are different stories with different versions of the characters who aren't really themselves) due to their bias like they did with the dragon flight and waterfall scene in the North during S8. They would've damned the pairing either way as done with Dany regularly and likely supported their desired crackships in the same place because antis tend to hate Dany for having all of what they covet for their favs.

Kit and Emilia have chemistry in real life, behind the scenes, in interviews and even in photoshoots of both their characters and themselves where it was so palpable even long before Jon and Dany met. Even Kit said "as my best friend, I think she's extraordinary", and Emilia said Kit was like putting on your favorite jacket. People even call them platonic soulmates besides Emilia and Jason. Both have explained they quickly became close friends before GoT even premiered. They were hanging out ever since throughout the show, and they finally got to act in some scenes together as they explicitly made clear they wanted. So how could they not have chemistry? It just didn't translate well on-screen because they so called tools, much to be desired dialogue from a script with some of the right ideas but could've been written and executed better likely with clever directing, the actors were given to work with didn't support it.

And for how ever much flack some give to Emilia's acting, she was definitely a better actor than Kit who's acting was unconvincing to them. Emilia carried most of their scenes. Emilia is friends with his girl Rose Leslie (Ygritte) who Emilia was also seen spending time with alongside Kit, and both said it was weird acting like that and kissing each other likely because their friendship and relationship with Rose. So it's understandable if they felt uncomfortable from those intimate interactions. This situation reminds me of Paul Wesley and Candice King in TVD who had chemistry as friends but not really as romantic partners because Paul said it was weird doing those scenes with his best friend's wife.

I’m still kind of boggled when people say Jon and Dany had no chemistry.  Like, yeah, their entire story was rushed as hell, and their chemistry could have been better.  But to say there was no chemistry I don’t understand.  People often compare them to Jon and Ygritte but I don’t feel that’s a very fair comparison, for several reasons (those earlier seasons are the show’s best, there’s no time compression, all Martin’s material to work with, K and R being a thing irl, I mean come on yes there’s a difference in chemistry).

I will say Jon and Dany’s chemistry took a dive in S8, but everyone’s entire characterizations took dives.  The only character (that anyone cared about) who managed to have any consistency was Theon.  That’s it.  Everyone else’s characters took hits, but none moreso than Jon and Dany themselves.   Even individually their characters were off-kilter.

It just bothers me when people nitpick at Jon and Dany’s relationship itself, rather than blame the real issue, that being the compressed time and the writing.  Then they go dragging out the show’s earlier seasons, pointing out how those relationships were better.  Of course they were, everything was better back then.  It’s like pulling out a cold hamburger from last week, and pointing out how much better the burger was a week ago when it was fresh.  Jfc.

[hamliet]

Is sansa connected to the winter rose?

In a word: no.

The winter rose is connected to Lyanna, Jon, and Daenerys.

The winter rose itself is a flower, a beautiful blue rose. They exist at Winterfell, and the legend associated with them is that Bael the Bard, a successful singer, entered Winterfell under an assumed name. As a reward, Brandon Stark offered him whatever he wanted, and Bael asked for the most beautiful flower. Brandon gave him the rose, but the next morning, Brandon's only daughter was missing from her bed, and the rose lay on the covers.

The crown of winter roses is what Rhaegar gave to Lyanna. Lyanna even dies holding roses, although their petals had turned black from death. The point is clearly that Rhaegar wooed Lyanna and she ran off with him, leaving her family. She also then died, and the beautiful blue roses had all decayed. I don't think Rhaegar and Lyanna weren't in love to some degree, but there's still a lot of political machinations at play and love, true or otherwise, didn't save them like in a fairy tale. In the end they were left with blood and death, not living roses. It's a symbol of loss as much as it is of love--loss of a daughter, loss of Lyanna, loss of a mother.

The context in which the Bael the Bard legend is told is also relevant: Ygritte tells it to Jon, who is Lyanna's son. I mean, the clues could not be clearer:

Ygritte: And she never sung you the song o' the winter rose? Jon: I never knew my mother. Or any such song.

Not only that, but Jon is facing a similar choice to Lyanna, of breaking his vows and staying with Ygritte. In the end, he chooses to return to the Watch.

But, it's not over. No, the legend continues in Brandon Stark relentlessly searching for them, but they never find anyone. He has no heirs, but then the girl returns with an infant, and as it turns out she and Bael never left the crypts of Winterfell--a place of death.

The symbolism is again pretty obvious: Jon as an infant, but also the idea that love stays with you even when you've lost the people whom you love. It's bittersweet. They're with you all along. And, from death comes life. The Stark bastard becomes a Stark lord. Again, the Jon symbolism is obvious.

Bael then becomes a King Beyond the Wall and invades the North, and his own son fights and defeats him--because Bael could not bring himself to kill his son. But his mother still loved Bael and commits suicide. Lovely. But again, the symbolism and themes are obvious: choosing love over duty (as Bael does) and choosing duty over love (as the Stark daughter does) both lead to death, because "death, the high cost of living." Our job living is to walk that tightrope and find a balance we can live with.

Dany's visions in the House of the Undying also connect Jon to the winter rose: she smells it "sweetly" as it grows "from a chink of ice in the wall." It's clearly associated with romance, as well.

Sansa has no connection to the winter rose as far as I can tell. In fact a search tells me the only connection is that after Ygritte tells Jon this, the next chapter is the one where she first "flowers," which is exceedingly tenuous as a connection. The Stark daughter who is repeatedly connected to Lyanna is Arya, not Sansa, and the winter rose has never actually appeared in either of their stories the way it has in Jon's and Daenerys's.

[daenerystargaryen06]

"He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi," the Lysene girl said. "Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return." -A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Here we have a passage of a story Doreah tells Daenerys, a tale of two moons in the sky. One wandered too close to the sun, and it cracked from the heat, resulting in dragons. And that one day, the second moon will 'kiss' the sun.

Notice G.R.R.M's play on words here. In this story, the first time one of the moons cracks, it "wandered" too close to the sun. And for the second, it is said that the second moon will "kiss" the sun. This is deliberate.

"You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall." Jon glanced over his shoulder. The shadow was there, just as she had said, etched in moonlight against the Wall." -A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI

Notice the same phrase of wording used here in Jon's passage. He has been "kissed" by the moon, etching his shadow along the Wall.

As I've stated in my post here, I believe that while Daenerys is the main focal point for her role as AA/TPTWP, she would be joined by others in this task. One of those people being Jon. He will be one of the three heads to join her side for the coming war against the Others. To unite the realm against the cold, and the dark.

"One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return." -A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

"You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall." -A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI

As for these two passages- let's believe they are to be taken literally. It happens for Dany and Drogo the first time around: Drogo is the sun, Dany the moon. Dany "wanders" too close to the sun, Drogo, in his funeral pyre, and thus her dragons hatch.

Now how could this relate to Jon?

I believe Jon being "kissed" by the moon, is in reference to Jon and Daenerys' eventual future romance and union together. We have evidence for this, provided from me here and here. More quotes providing into Jon being Daenerys' last romantic interest and husband:

". . . three heads has the dragon . . . the ghost chorus yammered inside her skull with never a lip moving, never a breath stirring the still blue air. . . . mother of dragons . . . child of storm . . . The whispers became a swirling song. . . . three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love. . . Her own heart was beating in unison to the one that floated before her, blue and corrupt. . . three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love. . . The voices were growing louder, she realized, and it seemed her heart was slowing, and even her breath. . . . three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love . . ." --A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

"I don't . . ." Her voice was no more than a whisper, almost as faint as theirs. What was happening to her? "I don't understand," she said, more loudly. Why was it so hard to talk here? "Help me. Show me." . . . help her . . . the whispers mocked. . . . show her . . . Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . . Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . . Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . ." -A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Notice that each prophecy given to Dany in the HOTU was given to her in three, each one ending in love. When asked to be shown what it meant, Dany is given visions. Two connecting her to Jon, both ending in three, as her prophecies for love:

"Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name" - this is clearly Rhaegar, Jon's father, dying upon the Trident. It is believed he is whispering Lyanna's name, Jon's mother.

"A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness" - Dany is seeing Jon at the Wall, through the metaphor of a blue flower (connecting him to Lyanna- blue winter roses). The air is full with sweetness- a metaphor to love, and sweetness- something Dany likes (also maybe this hints to Dany joining Jon at the Wall, giving him the three dragons he wishes for in another passage).

Dany will be the moon, who kisses Jon, her second sun. A reference to their love and union.

Now- how does this bring dragons into play? Who knows. The wording is a bit tricky here. The passage states that when the second moon kisses the sun, dragons will return. And yet dragons have already returned- Dany hatches her children the first time she "wanders" too close to the sun. So how do dragons come into play with her and Jon's union regarding this text?

Well, perhaps it may not be so literal. Maybe the return of dragons from Dany and Jon's union is that Jon will gain a dragon. Maybe Jon will discover ice dragons. Maybe they will find more dragon eggs at Winterfell or somewhere else. Maybe Dany's own dragons will breed and begin a second hatching of eggs, thus "returning" dragons once more with Dany and Jon's union. There are different possibilities for this.

Jon's resurrection can also lean more into him being the second sun to Dany, as he would be a wight of fire.

"Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared." -A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

"That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened." -A Storm of Swords - Daenerys III

"And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. "The last dragon," Ser Jorah's voice whispered faintly. "The last, the last." Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own." -A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

Both Jon and Dany experience dreams of fighting the Others.

-Both are wearing black armor and both are wielding fire; Dany with her dragons, Jon with a sword.

And while their dreams share similarities, they also bear differences:

-Jon is battling the Others upon the Wall, whereas Dany is battling them within the Trident.

-Jon sees Ygritte and realizes too late he's killed her (a person he views with grief and regret), Dany however believes herself to be Rhaegar (a person she sees as a fierce warrior and protector).

Both are also viewed by other people as the chosen ones, AA/TPTWP:

"On Braavos, it had seemed possible that Aemon might recover. Xhondo's talk of dragons had almost seemed to restore the old man to himself. That night he ate every bite Sam put before him. "No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. "I must go to her. I must. Would that I was even ten years younger." -A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

"Daenerys is the only hope," he concluded. "Aemon said the Citadel must send her a maester at once, to bring her home to Westeros before it is too late." -A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

"Skulls. A thousand skulls, and the bastard boy again. Jon Snow. Whenever she was asked what she saw within her fires, Melisandre would answer, "Much and more," but seeing was never as simple as those words suggested. It was an art, and like all arts it demanded mastery, discipline, study. Pain. That too. R'hllor spoke to his chosen ones through blessed fire, in a language of ash and cinder and twisting flame that only a god could truly grasp. Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price. There was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half-revealed and half-concealed within the sacred flames. Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow. "Devan," she called, "a drink." Her throat was raw and parched." -A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

Jon and Daenerys both have arcs of leadership. In which both have to make hard decisions that they believe is best. Both have the qualities of strong leaders, military strategists, and unifiers. It might turn out that Jon will wind up helping Dany in the books gather the people to face against the Others and fight against the cold and the dark. Perhaps even coming into acceptance of his true parentage and relation to Dany as well.

Both Jon and Dany are also known to have cultivated into, lived with, loved, and learned the humanity of the Freefolk and the Dothraki- two factions many view as "savage" and "barbaric", and yet I believe that the Freefolk and the Dothraki will come into a big play for both Jon and Dany against the war of the Others. The culmination of their work and efforts into unifying people to work together against one common enemy.

[atopvisenyashill]

why do you think jonsa is happening tho? jonerys is different bc they are going to be enemies, but i don’t see what jonsa does for the story

so let me first lay out roughly what i think is going to happen should jonsa become canon. I personally love going down meta and graphic spirals, so I'm including links to other people’s theories/explanations/graphics of events too - also I would like to shout out @istumpysk because half these metas and gifsets were stuff I found on their blog initially, and also was the one who really convinced me that jonsa is less of a crackship and more of a contender for an actual canon theory, and from there i really found my niche in this fandom. specifically this meta about jon being the mummer's dragon is what pulled me out of my "we're never getting twow and if we do it's just gonna be that stupid dany has jon's magical baby while tyrion watches, then they all die theory" slump and lit my brain on fire again. let's goooo:

The Ashford Tourney Theory - Something Shady goes down at the tourney Petyr has planned that requires Sansa to make a quick getaway, and likely causes her to run into Brienne while fleeing. This theory for me is about hinting at Sansa's romantic future, allies, and how she's getting the hell out of the Vale: both the dark haired, Not Targ Looking Targ Prince that is the son of A Great Prince That Never Was being her romantic endgame but also it's about Brienne (/Dunk) getting her the hell out of there and becoming Sansa's number one ally and protector (with Sansa's number two being Bronze Yohn!! But he's not fleeing with her - if he helps her get out of the Vale, it'll be to cause a distraction or a fight so Sansa can slip away unnoticed. Bronze Yohn is coming with the knights of the Vale later to help defend his girl!).

The Girl In Grey - Out of options on where to go, Sansa & Brienne makes a long, fast, and dangerous trek to the only family she knows is still alive: Jon Snow at the Wall. No, I don't think Alys Karstark is the girl in grey on a dying horse; I think she's a red herring, the same as the scene where Sweetrobin destroys the snow castle, and that the real girl in grey (who slays the savage giant) is Sansa. Melisandre says that she sees "Jon's sister" but doesn't specify more than that, or how she knows it's Jon's sister, even - why would she assume Alys is Jon's sister and not some random Northern girl? Why was she so sure that it was his sister? It's because Alys isn't the girl in grey, it's Sansa, her horse dying because she's traveled halfway across the continent with Brienne and Pod, desperately trying to keep ahead of the dozens of people hunting her down.

The Blood of Winterfell - Sansa and Jon will reclaim winterfell together. This one is similar to above; just like Alys was a red herring, the scene where Sansa rebuilds the castle has a lot of foreshadowing (imo) but that isn't the moment in the prophecy Arya hears. The Savage Giant is Littlefinger, the castle of snow is Winterfell, and Sansa is going to liberate her home alongside Jon and what's left of the Northern lords.

Stone and Snow Remains - THIS is where Sansa and Jon will fall in love while fighting for the North. This is also the part where you lose a lot of people, because they think the evidence is real weak sauce but like, I also think the Jonerys "evidence" is weak af too (and no wonder, we have at minimum 2k pages left to get through!!). There's several believed foreshadowing points to this one, bare with me for this weird ass formatting because I can't do sub bullet points on tumblr:

1. Sansa's linking of snow with love and affection - "drifting snowflakes brushed her face as light as lover’s kisses, and melted on her cheeks...She could feel the snow on her lashes, taste it on her lips. It was the taste of Winterfell. The taste of innocence. The taste of dreams." along with her snow maiden and snow knight.

2. Bael the Bard and the Rose of Winterfell - the chapter where Sansa gets her period for the first time, Cersei refers to it as “flowering” a dozen times, linking being a maiden (a young girl, not quite of age or just barely of age) to flowers and several people refer to sex as ~plucking. Also notice the one who stole her from KL is Lord BAELish.

3. Aemon the Dragonknight & Queen Naerys - Sansa compares herself to Naerys, Joffrey to Aegon, and wishes for an Aemon, among the many similarities between her life and Naerys'. Jon not only calls himself Aemon, he has a deep connection with a different Aemon Targaryen. And if you’re thinking “Sansa isn’t Naerys, X is Naerys” I would remind you that Sansa as a character existed first, George purposefully had her compare herself to Naerys, and parallels don't belong to just one character.

4. Jenny of Oldstones and The Prince of Dragonflies - there's honestly a lot of parallels between them but like the Aemon/Naerys parallel, the Jenny/Duncan one stands out to me.

5. Janos Slynt - I mean. Iconic. This was the scene that made me first think about what their relationship could be in the future and there’s a reason Jonsas fixate on it. It’s about Sansa being desperate for a hero and the hero she dreamed about being Jon the whole time. 6. Societal Alienation - There's the bastard parallels here, the "it would be so sweet to see him again", the "Winterfell belongs to my sister, Sansa." It's about how Jon, through circumstances of his birth, finds himself alienated from the rest of society and reconnects with his prim and proper sister Sansa, who finds herself alienated from the rest of society as well but for vastly different reasons.

Robb’s Will - Howland is going to show up in the North, along with Maege and Galbert, with some WILD news about why Jon can’t rule Winterfell. There’s a lot of contention around this. Bran probably shows up around this time too, and Arya gets to the Riverlands to discover Lady Stoneheart and give her the gift of mercy. This is where all the inheritance stuff is going to happen and I have no idea how it's going to go down besides it's going to be messy as all fuck.

The Pact Of Ice And Fire - Jon & Sansa get secret married bc they’re in love, not siblings, & jon is the only man she trusts not to steal her claim. This isn't the only possible foreshadowing instance of a marriage either - some believe the Sandor/Sansa scene during the Battle of the Blackwater is foreshadowing as well (personally I feel that's a bit of a stretch but I wanted to include it anyway).

Jon As An Envoy - I talked about this in my "what's Jon's ending" a little but I believe Jon will act as an envoy for either Sansa or Bran to Aegon VI, essentially playing out a similar story that he does in the show with Daenerys. By which I mean, Jon is not the King because the ruler themselves do not go as an envoy, that’s stupid and dangerous, but he goes as an ambassador for Sansa or Bran, to treat with a new claimant to the Iron Throne that is gaining support - Aegon VI & Jon Connington. They will probably clash, Jon will probably have yet another identity crisis, there had BETTER be gay incest subtext, then Aegon dies, and Jon has his sixth quarter life crisis in a row.

“King” of the Gift - again, something I touched on in my Jon meta is that I think he’s going to have a hand in resettling the Gift. Personally, I think it's likely that Jon leaves to protect the claims of his siblings (see: Duncan and Jenny) and goes to the Gift to help resettle it to keep out of the way. This ending is typically referred to as the "bael the bard" ending but i like to think of it as the "brandon's gift" ending instead - though he is not physically with his family, Jon feels fulfilled having confirmed his family loves him through reclaiming Winterfell and marrying Sansa, being reunited with Arya, and being given the Gift by Bran. Sansa claims her children were fathered by a wolf.

So…what does all this do for the story?

Well, in my opinion, several things.

I think the main barrier here is that most people in the greater fandom describe Sansa's story as ~growing past childish wants~ and Jon's as ~rejecting love~ and I do not agree with either of those takes even a little bit. This is where (imo) the dividing line between Jonsas and the rest of the fandom is. I don’t think the answer to Sansa’s question “will anyone ever marry me for love” is going to be “nah" - that's not just a sad story to me (wanting to be married isn't childish! craving intimacy and understanding isn't childish! it's also not wrong for a child to be childish!), I think the idea that Sansa (or Jon) will not find another love just doesn't line up with how George approaches his story. Who Sansa's husband will be has been such a big question, and her story is so heavy into the more romantic tropes like courtly love and chivalry and the line between politics and love and identity, that the question of Sansa's hand in marriage will be plot relevant. I also think it's kinda naive of people to pretend like George isn't very interested in the sexual dynamics of the characters he writes about (yeah, sure, no woman needs a man but "needing a man" is not what this is about. look at everything this man wrote in F&B and tell me he is going to write a female character that longs for sex and desire and doesn't get it!).

After AGOT, nearly every time Sansa thinks about marriage involves her longing for love but believing she will never get it because a man will only ever love her for her claim. Giving her a man - like Jon - who not only will not steal her claim and in fact has defended it twice over already, who will love her for who she is and not what she can give him, is a really important aspect of her story in my opinion.

As for Jon, I am even more firmly against the opinion that his story is about rejecting love; Jon’s story is about wanting to be a good man, to measure up to his father ~despite~ his bastard blood. When Aemon asks if Ned would choose honor over love and Jon stubbornly says yes, Jon is wrong and it’s important to not forget that. Ned has never once in his entire life chosen honor over love; he chooses his daughter’s life over his honor, he chooses his sister & her son’s life over honor, he chooses Arya & Nymeria over honor, and on and on!!! Ned chooses love at almost turn but none of his children know that just yet - look at Robb choosing Jeyne’s honor over his own and how upset he is at the idea that Ned would be disappointed despite the fact that Ned would have understand Robb’s decision! Jon's whole arc is tied up in realizing that it is not wrong or dirty to feel and choose love, passion, and desire and if he never has another romantic arc again, I think you lose the second part of that lesson which is "you are responsible for how you act when you feel love but that doesn't mean that simply choosing love makes you a bad person."

There's also the fact that George has talked a lot about "who lives, who dies, who gets married" and yet we have not one marriage at the end of the show AND there's not a lot of guesses at what "who gets married" means besides Jon/erys (and even if Jonsa doesn't happen, I simply do not see Jon/erys happening. they are not similar enough, they will not be in the same space for long enough, and they are on wildlly different trajectories for their story, they are not getting married let alone having sex). I think Jonsa fits that bill very well.

These various theories - from Sansa being queen, Jon living in exile, The Ashford Tourney Theory, the secret marriage, every one of them - are ideas and themes that I have really been thinking about for about 12 years now. I think Jon and Sansa's relationship could fit with the themes in their stories, the overarching themes in the books, and my own personal opinions. I think it gives George a great opportunity to delve into the courtly love aspects he enjoys so much, as well as delve into inheritance, legacy, legitimacy, honor, incest (yes, that too), and above all, what George himself has said the whole series is about - love. The human heart in conflict with itself is what I think Jon and Sansa as a romantic couple does for the series.

[unserenedreaming]

Can Jonsas stop stealing shit??

I just saw a post that used the quote Melisandre told to Jon Snow about the grey girl on a dying horse, and do you know who the post was about?

Not Alys Karstark, the girl who showed up to the wall on a dying horse

Not Arya Stark, the person Jon loves most in the world, the person he thinks of in his dying moments.

No, it was Sansa. The post was just tagged with Sansa's name, which is likely how it got in my recommended since I have all Jonsa stuff blocked already. But I think we all know it's a Jonsa post.

For the love of GRRM himself, please stop taking shit that is already established as being about characters and making it about Jonsa. I get it, you have no real textual context that your ship will end up together. And you know what? That's ok! I have so may crack ships! But you know what I don't do? I don't steal shit that is about other people to try and prove my crack ship is true! I accept that it won't happen but I can have fun with it anyways because I like the characters and their potential, even if that potential will never come to be. But it is a specfically Jonsa trait to steal metas about other, far more likely to occur couples (Jonrya & Jonerys especially) and make it about their crackship.

It's so tiring at this point.

[lucyskywalker]

I’m actually very curious to know why you don’t like jonsa! my reasons for example are: their fandom is acting way too insane for a ship that never happened and won’t ever happen; kit harington is unfortunately ugly. what are yours?

There are so many reasons that I dont even know how to begin with.

Alright. Let's go.

1st reason: It is only solely based on the show, and I really mean that. When you get to read metas and posts surrounding the ship, u realize these people never opened the books, while traying to pretend they did. I'm not being entitled. It is just obvious with what they write. Everything is taken out of contest. Especially surrounding Jon's pov and his lack of relationship with Sansa.

+ I despise the show. The only good thing about D&D's creations were the Dragons CGI and the dothraki and valyrian language, and it ends there. Out of it, everything sucks. They have rewrote all the female character in such a sexist and ridiculous way that I can't even start explaining for you.

2nd. I ship jonrya. Ik it is not everyone's cup of tea, but I do. And no. Idc if they become canon or not. I like the concept. I love their relationship. And I love what they can become. Now why the fact I ship Jonrya actually matters? Well, specially after season 7, a lot of Jonsa fans started taking things from Jon PIV that were about his love for Arya, and make it be about Sansa, with ridiculous excuses for their takes. The most commun and easy example being "What do you know of my heart, priestess? What do you know of my sister?" When Jon asks Melissandre, he is referring to Arya. And no. It is not a different interpretation. It is about Arya he is talking about. Another one was "Would you bed your sister?" And Again Jon thinks about Arya, but when you read Jonsa's metas; they say he is thinking about Sansa. Another common Jonsa take is that Jon died for his men in the books, or for Sansa, when again, this is not the case. He died for Arya. And that is explicit on the text with no room for other interpretation. No wonder why the last thing he tought was about her.

Jonsas straigh up lie about what happens in the books to support their takes, or they just read metas here on tumblr and believe it. Idk and neither do I wish to know.

Not only that. They started behaving as they had a moral high ground over jonerys and jonryas... when they don't, it is still incestuos and still problematic to modern standards - not only that, they behave entitled to this day, and attack Jonrya shippers and Jonerys shippers in a real coward way.

Many, many times, I received anon hate telling me to *kms*, slit my wrists. Someone even wished for me to get raped over a fictional ship.

My disdain over the ship is not only with the ship itself, hence taking a lot of Jon's dynamic and bound with Arya to give it to Sansa, which is really important in both of their stories and arc, but mostly about the fandom, and how I was affected by it. If it was treated only like a crackship (what book wise, actually is), as my beloved hitsukarin from bleach, I would have no problem with it.

But the community is far one of the most toxic ones I have ever seen or been in contact with. Actually, dealing with them heavily impacted my mental health.

3rd. I really didnt like Sansa way before dealing with the fandom. Since my favorite is Arya, the way Sansa treated her never vibed with me. (And no. It isn't normal sibling behavior. I am an older sister. I would never do half of the things Sansa have done, not even on 11). After book 1, I felt pity for her, but she still was the last interesting character for me, even if her Vale story was.... I guess, more berable.

After getting into the fandom, tho, Jonsas and Stansas ruined Sansa for me in every possible way as well to the point I read her chapters and I won't feel any kind of enjoyment in her journey or her character. She is my least liked character, not because "she is the most horrible person in the books" (she is not. She is far from being that. ) but because her fans made me feel terribly bitter about her. It is not logical or fair, but again, I'm not trying to be.

[esther-dot]

I'm sorry, that's gonna be a really weird ask from one jonsa stan to another but I'm genuinely curious - is there any anti jonsa argument/claim that actually made sense to you? I'm really asking for the sake of, well, civilised discussion - because if there are arguments there ought to be reasonable counterarguments. And all that I see is the same tired old crap - "she's not his favourite sister" and "but they are relatives!" and all the other stuff. Given, of course I'm not hanging around jonry@ and jon@erys side of this fandom (dark things happen to any sansa and jonsa stans there) and have no idea if they have any reasonable metas. Or maybe if there was a moment that made you actually question possibility of jonsa happening in books? (once again - because I'm anxious like that - I'm not asking this to disprove something or make people question jonsa but because I wonder if you personally had this sort of experience).

Thank you and hope you're having a nice day!

No worries! I enjoy looking at things from different angles, so I don’t mind at all. Unfortunately, I haven’t read anti jonsa stuff that isn’t exactly what you described, so I can’t actually have the convo you want about this. I tried to go to some jonerys blogs but their anti tags weren’t what we’re looking for. There’s a blogger people view as neutral who other Sansa fans/Jonsas put on my dash, and a BNF who people I follow also reblog from, so I went over to their blogs to look around and they’re less rabid, but I can’t say they offered though-provoking pushback. I’ll share some snippets though, in case you’re interested.

There was the old "but their siblings" argument:

I, ah, I do not think Jon marries Sansa in any scenario. Regardless of biological relationship, they think of themselves as siblings. The people around them are also quite likely to consider them siblings or as good as, having been raised as such (see also Theon being accused of kinslaying over his apparent murder of Bran and Rickon). Nor do I think either would be in a rush to go back to the traditional “but the Targaryens practiced incest,” again considering that their society is strongly anti-incest. Jon and Sansa were raised together, in the same house, as brother and sister, and that makes a material difference.

But you know, raised as siblings and please nobody try the “but they weren’t close” with me, that’s so not true.

It’s interesting to see someone say they were close, that’s not something I’ve seen before. I suppose my biggest issue with this line of thought is that it feels true for a generic fantasy maybe, but hardly convincing when talking about ASOIAF? Martin wants to talk about incest. So far, we have all the bad, abusive variations covered. I think he’s gonna work some shades of grey into it the same way he tries to do with everything he discusses, and to pretend like he would never feels disingenuous to me. Even if he ultimately abandoned the initial draft, from the author’s mind came the idea of a Jon / Stark girl romance. He has entertained it. Secondly, Jon is a Targ and it’s reasonable to expect that to manifest somehow, or at least, for Jon to experience the fear that there’s something latent there. And third, if we’re gonna get a romance, I think Martin would write it with the complexity and inner struggle that he writes everything and fauxcest offers him that opportunity, not to mention all the parallels it would allow as well.

Let's see...I also saw that they object to the Beauty and the Beast reading of Jonsa:

And I've been searching but apparently I never posted the rest of my "Bear and the Maiden Fair" thoughts, but that's the in-world Beauty and the Beast story. Through that and looking at bears elsewhere in the story, you can track this idea of the beast not being a monster, but being perceived as one by society, an outcast, which is why the Hound, Tyrion, and Jon all fit the role/are related (in a way), and why Jon will be the final suitor or real bear/beast.

The next one, I’m just gonna post the whole thing:

I’m not sure if the best part is the implication that Jon/Dany (which they believe is inevitable) have what’s required to allow for “quick deep emotional connections” or if it’s reading the Hound insult and threaten and then finally put a knife to Sansa’s throat and deciding “romance! chivalry!” The Hound may be disillusioned, but the fandom has got to stop pretending like some of his espoused beliefs aren’t self-serving, a defense because he is a monster. We have Brienne and Jon showing us different versions of knights, true knights, so acting like the Hound is in the right is just bizarre.

Anyway, no, I’ve not read an anti argument that made me doubt it. I do doubt what Martin is aiming for at times, so I’ve vacillated between potential paths/endgames for them over the years, but the anti arguments generally are coming from a reading of characters and dynamics that’s disturbing to me which means I’m usually alienated, not compelled.