#asoiaf/got meta

[crimsoncold]

have you ever thought about the snow queen fairytale in connection to jonsa? it might be a reach but i can see elements of them in there

Hi asoiastarks! Please forgive my very delayed and rambly response to this ask

I hadn't really considered this fairytale before but when I thought about it in depth I ended up having way more to say about the connection between Jon and Sansa's stories (and Jonsa as a romantic pairing) and fairytales in general than I expected so I'm putting my response below...

While I wouldn't say that there is one specific fairytale that jonsa (or jon and sansa individually) clearly and directly follows I would totally agree with the opinion that Jon and Sansa (two of asoiaf's comparatively most traditionally romantic characters) definitely seem to draw from or echo several common aspects found with protagonists of traditional fairy tales- both as individual characters and as a potential romantic pairing.

I've definitely seen people describe Sansa as a romantic heroine that has tragically been "misplaced" into a brutal world like westeros- and I think that description holds up and that ultimately her gentle and romantic nature will result in an end that is not simply having all her happiness and hope being destroyed by consistent trauma and narrative punishment but rather will have to involve her life flourishing into something beautiful but still grounded providing a more satisfying end for someone who maintains much of the sort of traditional kindness/goodness found with the typical fairytale princess despite the horrors around her- otherwise asoiaf would seem little more than an outright bitter and nihilistic story

I also think we shouldn't sleep on Jon who underneath his wonderfully bitchy sarcastic grumpy or occasionally ruthless exterior holds similarly romantic values and thoughts

Generally speaking it wouldn't surprise me that someone could find commonalities between a fairytale and Jon and Sansa, I feel that many common tropes that are found in a great number of fairytales can correspond to aspects of Jon's or Sansa's individual story and personalities or to Jonsa as a pairing by itself.

Just listing a few off the top of my head ...Having and reclaiming some secret identity that they may or may not have know about, young members of nobility/royalty raised or living in hiding due to their lives being in peril- typically in a position of lower class than they might actually belong to; being the target of the machinations wrath or cruelty of evil kings/queens/or some type of sorcerer or spellcaster, having notable interactions with or a special connection to animals or some type of mythical creature, the concept of being resurrected from some form of permanent sleep or even death

.... and of course in the case of a possible romantic relationship forming- them being character's who after experiencing incredible hardship, tragedy, or sorrow are ultimately awarded for exhibiting, maintaining, or gaining traits such as kindness/compassion/bravery/dutifulness/or selflessness, the possibility of either of them occupying the role of a hero or saviour for the other from either literal physical threats/enemies or more metaphorical ones like their loneliness or emotional trauma, as well as having a completed and happy story arc that ultimately cumulates in them forming a deeply intimate and loving partnership or marriage.

When it comes to the Snow Queen specifically I'm only passingly familiar with this fairytale (so please forgive me in advance if I miss something obvious or get any details wrong) but based on my very basic knowledge of this fairytale I can definitely think of a number of interesting commonalities/parallels this fairytale could have to Jonsa.

Firstly, because so much of Jon, Sansa, and the Stark family's storyline is rooted in a snowy and cold environment (the north, winterfell, the wall, etc.) and because one major threat in the overall story comes in the form of "ice" (i.e. the Long Night and the Others coming from beyond the wall) it doesn't surprise me that one could find a number of (at least surface leve)l commonalities to a story like the snow queen with its similarly icy setting and villain, as well as find a number of common basic story elements/imagery that occur in both- though not always in the same type of context or role (e.g. the appearance of or focus on ice/snow/snowflakes, roses, crows, doves, and a girl traveling and reuniting with someone in the north, the emphasis put on the sweetness or goodness of a character, and the unexpected effect or power that a character's faith/prayers/love/or inherent goodness can have on the world or people around them)

Most of all i can definitely see the potential for some more direct similarities between the snow queen and a hypothetical (but very possible) jonsa endgame for asoiaf....

First in the form of a character like jon being healed and changed from his own altered state (e.g. some form of strangeness, purposelessness, distantness, coldness, harshness, forgetfulness, or trauma that occurs in the aftermath of his time with the night's watch and his subsequent assassination and resurrection) after he is reunited and touched by the sweetness and affection- the love, tears, or even kiss- of a distantly regarded (or even forgotten post resurrection?) but once beloved part of his childhood- in the form of a girl he was raised with who has made a dangerous and long trek north to be reunited with him,

Secondly I could see strong paralelles occuring regarding the ending, i.e. one that centers around two individuals returning to their common home, grown and deeply changed by their experiences but with a hopeful and happier future promised or symbolized in the form of the changing season (with the upcoming one promising to be a time of warmth and renewal after the comparatively harsh or treacherous winter).

Side Note:

Given got/asoiaf's efforts towards exemplifying a far more corrupt, harsh, cruel, senseless and unjust world than what is typically seen in fantasy works I'm not exactly expecting an ending chock-full of sunshine and rainbows....

However I find it notable that Sansa, and to some extent Jon, exist as somewhat of an outlier in an explicity harsh and grim setting (and are further flanked by a number of characters that are a great deal less romantic and more pragmatic, if not outrightly more selfish, cruel, or even brutal and psychotic)

As a result there is something quite striking about the way many of Jon and Sansa's experiences, core personality traits, and their supposedly hopeless or rejected- yet still deeply idolized- dreams end up resembling eachother in so many ways.

Their desires and motives may (for lack of a better word) be comparatively "simpler" and more straightforward than those of many other characters yet they also correspond to an underlying shared sense of duty and desire for family, and are simultaneously deeply meaningful to the character's personally while also exemplifying an appropriate blend of the series realism/pragmatism with jon and sansa's trademark romanticism.

I do believe that a bittersweet but hopeful and affectionate end for these characters and this epic fantasy tale can definitely (at least in part) take the form of not just a reunion of the surviving starks but also in a sort of slightly twisted and bastardized fairytale end for the series via Jon and Sansa having their dreams (of winterfell, marriage, and family) being fulfilled by a respectful, willing, and even loving marriage to one another.

(a love and relationship that would initially be appropriately fraught and seemingly forbidden or obscene but ultimately would be allowed to blossom giving these two characters the closest a story like asoiaf will ever get to a traditionally "happy" fairytale ending)

A Jonsa endgame would also offer a thematically appropriate foil to several other notable romantic relationships in the series...

Like seriously there is way too much sibling incest in this series for GRRM not to be building up to something/coming full circle in the end with a very different but still pseudo-incestuous relationship in the form of Jonsa

... like I swear to god he's gonna be like "here have a bunch of current, recent, and long past tragic, ruinous, and/or deeply unhealthy and harmful incestuous marriages and relationships...isn't this obviously always such a terrible thing to occur?" only to go against typical expectations of readers and once again reject the simplicity of an obviously black and white story with a strong and consistent divide between the "heroes" and the "villains" and instead sucker punch the audience by offering up an emotionally and thematically fulfilling but somewhat unusual (even uncomfortable for a number of readers) and bittersweet end that once again involves an incestuous (of sorts) relationship only this time amongst the "good" characters in the story, in the form of a marriage between cousins and psuedo siblings Jon and Sansa.

[crimsoncold]

It does feel very fitting that both characters get taken out due to their own actions and in a similar fashion to the ways they enacted incredible harm and destruction upon others.

Littlefinger, a courtly figure who schemes, ingratiates, manipulates, uses, and betrays people from behind the scenes (everyone from powerful lords and royalty to vulnerable helpless young girls) in his own ongoing quest for power, who so prizes his own intelligence subtly and ability to read and manipulate people

= his plans not only failing but his own arrogance being what leads to his downfall, all his scheming and the immense wealth and power he accumulated will be meaningless in the end, his so prized cunning not enough to save him or keep him from being out smarted, getting exposed publically in court (the very environment he had so thrived in), made powerless and helpless the way he has made other people and "allies" feel, sentenced/executed based on the testimonies of his victims, him being "betrayed" by the pawns he deemed unimportant or thought he had total control over

It would not surpise me if it is the more helpless amongst his victims that survive him and are directly or indirectly responsible for him being brought to justice, i.e. Jeyne Poole, Sansa Stark...

(one a steward's girl deemed unimportant by others beyond what use they can make of her, taken by Baelish and subjected to terrible abuse as a result, the other a girl the very image of her mother- the woman he had coveted his whole life much like he covets the daughter now and who he had ultimately betrayed to a violent traumatic end- but who also will embody the spirit and nature of her just father- the very man who littlefinger hated and betrayed to his death and whose role Petyr essentially tried to assume in his ongoing attempts to manipulate and groom Sansa... as if it's not just his surviving victims rising up to get justice but in a way the memory/spirit of the unjustly murdered ones demanding justice from beyond the grave... just as he never got to possess Lady Catelyn he will ultimately not ever really have or control her and Ned's daughter and his recklessness in his attempt to do so will help ensure his end)

...as I think these victims (with the right protection/ allies/backing) will have enough knowledge of littlefinger's misdeeds for both the vale and the north to rightfully demand his head.

Ramsay a horrifically violent unhinged monster who revels in perversity and the power he feels he attains through breaking, torturing, and murdering his victims

= recieves an equally painful and horrfic death as the ones his victims experienced, stripped of all sense of control, power, or renown/notoriety as he has a brutal, but otherwise unnoteworthy and meaningless, death in a fitting state of helplessness at the jaws of his own starving dogs (that are, perhaps rather befittingly in this scenario, named after his past victims); he and the fear and the so called power he has accumulated will mean nothing in the end as he dies either entirely alone/in obscurity much like the victims he deemed helpless and unimportant enough to be his targets OR after the followers/victims around him refuse to cow to his threats or demands to save him from his gruesome fate.

These are ends that would be fitting for the types of crimes/atrocities these villains committed while also being satisfying because they a) are the consequence of their own actions/hubris and b) the story gets to stay true to the characterization of those who would be in the position to see these men put to justice i.e. the Starks (in this house we want ramsay to be eaten alive by his own dogs but not at the expense of the nature, identity, or arc of any of the Starks!)

I might be a square, but I’d prefer it in the books if Littlefinger and Ramsay are put on trial for their crimes with evidence (Jeyne could be there) and executed lawfully. That was one of my gripes with Battle of the Bastards, even though it was “poetic justice” for Ramsay to be killed by his own starving dogs. I also don’t think Stannis will be the one to do it. 🤷‍♀️

I agree 100%

I absolutely think that Littlefinger will be convicted in a trial and executed according to the law. Perhaps not for all of his crimes, but for one that they can legally prove. He will be outsmarted, but legally.

Ramsay, though, I think GRRM won't place in court. He would deserve it and it wouldn't be hard to sentence him to death the moment they get some testimony that it was him who slaughtered Rodrik Cassel's small besieging force and sacked Winterfell while his father was officially loyal to House Stark. Or, you know, the numerous cases of cruel murder. For precisely that reason, GRRM probably won't go that way. He'll likely have Ramsay felled by his own hubris in some way that's closer to Drogo dying of sepsis from a wound he refused to treat. The guy named his dogs after his murder victims. He won't be fed to them in a helpless state. He'll be the cause of his own demise in some way, probably leaving himself injured in a (human) hunt gone wrong, the dogs starving, used to the taste of human flesh, no one around or vwilling to prevent it. An ignomous, helpless, violent end he can't threaten or manipulate his way out of. Stripped of all pretense of power.

The show's mistake was not the dogs, it was thinking that cold-blooded murder was a good girlboss moment for Sansa.

[winterprince601]

the battle between the starks and the lannisters at the twins in got is actually a battle between the parenting of ned stark and tywin lannister.

this is the first battle to which tyrion brings his vale mountain clan soldiers and tywin places him in the left vanguard, essentially as a diversion/sacrifice. he does not share his strategy, as outlined above, with tyrion because he claims he doesn't 'trust' him. he assumes tyrion will fail and so when he succeeds, it upsets his plans.

he expects as little from robb stark, an untried boy. but what he doesn't understand is that ned has prepared his son for leadership. he hasn't hoarded his authority from him, desperate for dominance over everyone including his family. he's brought robb with him when he carried out his duties as a lord. he's educated him in battle strategy but more importantly, he has not glamorised war to him. robb is not eager to go plunging into battle and he's not battling for the sake of it. he knows the burden of his responsibility as a lord and he even knows when to delegate it: tywin's first shock was that the freys were in the stark host because robb trusted his mother to negotiate a hard bargain on his behalf. all of this contrasts tywin's neglect of tyrion and even his adulation of jaime's prowess - in the same chapter before the battle, he admonishes tyrion: "does the thought of facing the stark boy unman you, tyrion? your brother jamie would be eager to come to grips with him." ironically the kind of foolhardy behaviour he expects and criticises from robb, he encourages in jaime. this is because tywin doesn't actually want an heir to succeed his rule, he wants a shiny trophy to flatter it. only of course, tywin is not immortal. as this chapter foreshadows, his inability to parent or relinquish any power will be his undoing.

[tell-them-the-north-remembers]

If there is one line I like to over-analyze in the ASoIAF books it is a rather famous thought that goes inside Cat's head before her death. As the steel is close to her throat Cat thinks "No, don’t, don’t cut my hair, Ned loves my hair." And this line and her entire inner monologue is absolutely heart-breaking but one thing I fixate on is the actual sentence itself.

"Ned loves my hair."

Anyone who has read the books knows that Cat holds contempt for the fact that except for Arya, she has failed to give Ned children who look like him. It is also one of the reasons she dislikes Jon so much, because the mother of Jon (who she assumes to be Ned's bastard son) has managed to give Ned a child that looks just like him while she, his lawfully wedded wife gave birth to five of his children only for four of them to come out looking exactly like her. Red hair, blue eyes. Unlike Jon (and Arya) who share Ned's dark hair and dark eyes.

And knowing that it is so interesting to me that Cat's last thought about Ned (and her last thought ever) was that Ned loves her hair.

Because Ned loved her, he loved her hair, he loved her the way she was. And every time he looked at Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon he saw the reflection of the woman he loved, while Cat was so upset that they weren't all reflections of the man she loved.

Every time Ned ran his fingers through their hair, he ran his fingers through the hair of the woman he loved. He never resented Cat for the fact that four of his children didn't look like him, he loved that they looked like their mother, again, the woman he loved so much. He loved that they had the same hair he loved on Cat, and judging by it being her last thought Cat also knew that Ned loved her hair (and the way she looked), whether she ever came to the realization that Ned was perfectly happy with the way their children looked at all, or if she realized after he was dead and it was too late, it is unclear. But all those years she beat herself up over nothing.

Ned loved her the way she was, Ned loved his children the way they were, when they looked like him and when they didn't. Because when they didn't look like him, they looked like the love of his life, his darling wife.

And if the books decide to go with R+L=J it also adds another layer to Cat and Ned's relationship. Because Jon's mother was always a woman she didn't know but was still competing with in her mind for Ned's love for all these years. Turns out she didn't even exist. Turns out she didn't need to feel inferior to the woman Ned loved enough to not even talk about with her, no need to feel bad about the fact that she was able to give Ned a child that looked like him while Cat "failed".

At the end of the day, all the voices in her head making her feel insecure in her marriage never needed to be there, because everything she thought of as a problem with her were not problems at all for Ned. He was perfectly happy with her and their children.

[babylonfelldown]

I saw a tiktok about Jon and Theon and it made me remember how fuking insane their dynamic is

They're broken mirrors of each other: both of them just want the starks to see them as family, they want to feel wanted, they envy and hate each other.

Theon is a trueborn son of a great house, an heir even, but at the same time he's treated as a squire and a ward when convenient, (he helps Ned and Robb), he's also seen as a hostage and a threat, never quite trustworthy. He says repeatedly that he never felt wellcome by the Starks and that the only one to have any affection for him was Robb. Theon dreams to be wed to Sansa, not because he loves her, but because them he would be a son for Ned. He envies Jon because even being a bastard he's loved by Ned (ln a way neither Ned or his actual father loved him), his sibilings (all of them) love him, even if Lady Stark doesn't like him, he is family in Theon's eyes.

Jon is a bastard, he's a shame that must remain hidden, it doesn't matter how much Ned or his sibilings love him, he will never be a true Stark in the eyes of westerosi society. He is trusted but his loyality is always at question, Jon is a threat to Robb's claim in many peoples eyes, like he wants his brothers birthright, and the worst of it all is: he does. He desperately wants to be a trueborn son, but he loves Robb deeply, more than he could ever wish to be legitimate. He envies Theon because he is a trueborn son, he is an heir, he will get to have a wife and children of his own, legitimate children that won't be called names.

Truely insane dynamic of hatred and envy that culminates with both of them trying to one up each other on everything.

[fanfictionroxs]

Alicent being a victim to a council of misogynist men being a 'gotcha' moment for some fans really shows their true mentality. This isn't about feminism to these fans, Rhaenyra is just a shield they use to hide their own misogyny with feminism. Otherwise Alicent's circumstances are so clear to even casual watchers (especially in an episode where both her and Rhaenyra have parallel scenes having their council speaking over them). A child bride forced to operate in the patriarchy to protect her kids, that girl getting thrown aside by men, isn't 'payback' or karma.. it's just the patriarchy wheel going on, crushing woman after woman under it. People enjoying Alicent's 'downfall' simply fail to understand the victims of patriarchy or do not care about them (which is why for many of these 'feminists', Rhaenyra's worth is tied to Daemon and not as an individual).

[mega-ringsandthings-world]

Okay. I know the general consensus is not this, but if Catelyn had been told the truth about Jon from the get go, she would have treated him better. Relatively. Like, she wouldn't have gave him shit for being a bastard or been ice queen bitch stepmother to him, but uh. there would have been other issues. Just think about how having Catelyn aboard the hide-Jon-train would go for one second. For one second. Okay? We are talking about Catelyn fucking Stark nee Tully. And we are also talking about Catelyn fucking Stark nee Tully before the other four kids came along. Just her baby Robb and Ned and Ned's nephew. (and if you don't think that Ned saving Jon from under Robert's nose on a promise to his sister wouldn't make I-released-the- king-slayer-to-bring-back-my-daughters-Catelyn fall so hard in love with him her head is still ringing fifteen years later you are LYING to yourselves) So think mother gothel. She would have micromanaged the shit out of Jon's life and upbringing. Ned is pretty lax so as security measures go in terms of Jon, but Cat? Winterfell would get turned into FBI headquarters. Vibe checks at the door and retina scanners and Jon and Robb have a praetorian guard on their cradles. Yeah she'd be cool to Jon in public as he grows but in private she's frantically brushing his hair every night looking for whites. Holding him up to the light to check for hints of purple in his eyes. As they get older she namedrops bastard a lot but secretly actively fosters a relationship between Jon and the other kids because Catelyn-Sansa-will-be-queen-of-the-seven-kingdoms-Stark nee Tully knows about the pact of Ice and Fire and having one of the last Targs bouncing around is tickling the politician in her. That being said she institutes a book ban on Targ history and is always on Ned's ass about them playing dragons. When Arya is gets old enough she makes it a point to put her and Jon next to each other at all times. Jon getting a direwolf are goddammed holy blessing to her. When Robert's dump ass comes to visit she's having a conniption about Jon being recognized and nearly locks his ass in the crypts until he decides of his own free will to sit in the cheap seats before she blows a gasket. She hates the Wall idea because who the Fuck is going to watch this kid as well as she's been doing for the past fifteen years? WHO? If she had found out about Aemon being up there she's have blown up castle black. Jon, who has had to deal with this shit since attaining spatial awareness tries to get Benjen to let him take his night's watch vows at Winterfell's weirwood. Man wants OUT. He can't deaal with tiger mom ass no more. When he comes to visit Bran she slips and says something cryptic and weirdly affectionate and it puts his ass in a tailspin all the way to the Wall.

Like, I know people think it'd go more downhill if she knew about Jon but why? Boring. Uninspired. Booooo. Get fun with it.

[drakaripykiros130ac]

Just a daily reminder that Queen Aemma Arryn had only one living child.

Alicent Hightower had four.

And yet the surviving bloodline which created a new Targaryen dynasty that lasted for many years after and produced several incredible Kings, beautiful Princesses, skilled warriors and a Queen came from the one living child of Queen Aemma.

This is what I call poetic justice.

[witchthewriter]

𝑷𝑨𝑹𝑻 𝑶𝑵𝑬: 𝐇𝐨𝐰 𝐞𝐚𝐜𝐡 𝐟𝐞𝐦𝐚𝐥𝐞 𝐀𝐒𝐎𝐈𝐀𝐅 𝐜𝐡𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐜𝐭𝐞𝐫 𝐰𝐨𝐮𝐥𝐝 𝐫𝐮𝐥𝐞

a/n: I will be doing this by House! Also, yes it doesn't make sense timeline wise but think of each as an alternate universe ✧˚ ༘ ⋆｡♡˚

𝑯𝑶𝑼𝑺𝑬 𝑻𝑨𝑹𝑮𝑨𝑹𝒀𝑬𝑵

𝑫𝒂𝒆𝒏𝒆𝒓𝒚𝒔 | 𝑴𝒐𝒕𝒉𝒆𝒓 𝒐𝒇 𝑫𝒓𝒂𝒈𝒐𝒏𝒔

・She did as she promised and liberated Westeros.

・No Mad Queen, but sacrifices were made. However, all three of her dragons survived.

・The Long Night was vanquished because Dany was The Prince Who Was Promised.

・In a turn of events, Viserion was not a male dragon. Dany didn't have three sons... she had two and a daughter!

・Viserion laid her clutch of eggs not far from Dany as she wanted her to be the first person to see them.

・Her clutch of eggs produced three beautiful dragons; the biggest was a deep blue with flecks of gold and bronze. The second was a gorgeous pink egg with light orange accents and the last was purple with pearlescent swirling details.

・Dany became a grandmother and as soon as she saw them hatch, she cried.

・Barely anyone was allowed to see the dragonlings; even though she had risen to power, she still felt the eyes of enemies on her back. Many would love to hurt these new dragons.

・Dany still did not have a pregnancy that came to full term; so her dragons were truly her legacy, with Viserion keeping the magic back in the world.

・The hatching of these new eggs made the realm respect her even more.

・She didn't have a traditional way of ruling; yes she had councilors, and a small council.

・But the wealth was distributed equally. With smallfolk able to have jobs and acquire ones that usually only nobles had.

・Speaking of small councils, she had two of her closest bloodriders, Greyworm, Missendai (yes she is alive, well and thriving), Ellaria Sand and Samwell Tarly (Gilly and their son live in the Red Keep).

・As Dany could not have biological human children of her own, she basically saw every child/orphan as her own, in some way or another. She saw herself in them. Her childhood of always on the run, dirty clothes, knotted hair, clasping her brother's hand.

・She didn't want that for any child.

・So Dany spent a lot of her time building safe houses, schools, places where children could go and feel seen, heard and feel protected.

・A different Westeros was forming and many did not like that. Uprisings were frequent. Always from the Faith of the Seven & the old nobles.

・But every time they were stopped. However, those that repeated were thrown into prison (and therefore used to create new buildings) or were put to death.

(P.s., Ellaria Sand is her book self, not her show self because they are entirely different. Some events from the show never happened because it made no sense for Dany to wait so long to break the wheel.)

𝑹𝒉𝒂𝒆𝒏𝒚𝒓𝒂 | 𝑻𝒉𝒆 𝑸𝒖𝒆𝒆𝒏 𝒐𝒇 𝑫𝒓𝒂𝒈𝒐𝒏𝒔

・She won against her brother and sat the Iron Throne with a tired heart. Rhaenyra lost a lot more than she could handle and her days were spent fighting off her grief.

・That did not stop her from being the best queen she could be.

・Her energy was given to the people, to the dragons and to the restructure of House Targaryen.

・Since the Greens had nearly torn what it was to be a Targaryen, Rhaenyra had a lot to do. So, she depended on those who were loyal to her. Baela, Addam, Corlys, etc.

・Oh, and not to forget Syrax.

・Syrax kept a lot of people in check when they came to court.

・As the dragon pit was partially destroyed (the dragons were okay though, they survived, help came just in time!) the living dragons now roamed to find a proper place to live. Dragonstone became a lot more populated.

・The love of the dragons would be reintroduced. One way she would do that, would be to reinstate the idolisation of the dragons. I.e., basically showing off the dragons.

・So, more royal processions atop dragons.

・As a skilled dragonrider herself, Rhaenyra may have placed greater emphasis on the role of dragons and their riders in the defense and governance of the realm.

・It would not always be easy. Especially with the fact that Rhaenyra's rise to power involved the killing of her own nephew, Aegon II. This would cast a long shadow over her reign and create lingering resentment among some factions.

・But through the influence of Mysaria, the smallfolk and those less fortunate would definitely be focused on. No more fighting pits! (Let's remember that Aegon frequented them...)

・Additionally, through Rhaenyra's victory, there would be a shift in the balance of power among the noble houses. For example; The Hightowers, who backed Aegon II, might have lost influence, while the Velaryons and other supporters of Rhaenyra might have gained prominence. This is all up in the air however, as Rhaenyra did have a forgiving heart... (I mean, before all the war...)

・What I know to be true, is that Rhaenyra would have maintained a strong dragon presence in King's Landing. Positively - this would have deterred potential threats and rebellions. And also led to a more prominent role for the dragonriders in the governance of the realm.

𝑹𝒉𝒂𝒆𝒏𝒚𝒔 | 𝑻𝒉𝒆 𝑸𝒖𝒆𝒆𝒏 𝑾𝒉𝒐 𝑾𝒂𝒔

・Is in history books as one of the best rulers

・Balanced, open-minded and level-headed; Rhaenys didn't need a council - she was one all on her own.

・She grew up never thinking she would rule; so she was quiet and watched everyone's moves

・The Sea Snake was a brilliant King-Consort, still the leader of Driftmark

・Meleys was truly The Red Queen; her own horns and spikes resembled Rhaenys' crown and when they were together, they were utterly breathtaking

・As said before with the others, with Rhaenys and her dragon, Meleys, in a position of power, the presence of dragons would have been more pronounced in the governance of the realm. This could have deterred potential rebellions and solidified her authority

・A lot of her reign would reflect her own grandmother's - The Good Queen Alysanne. 100% Rhaenys would continue with the women's councils.

・The women of Westeros would be given opportunities. I think Rhaenys would take a lot of inspiration from Dorne. And how women were equal to men, because why the hell not?

・And as a dragon rider, who was going to tell her no? Meleys was definitely not about to let anyone defy her either.

・However, one of her greatest allies was the North.

・And due to the North's historical resistance to female leadership, her ability to assert authority and govern effectively would sway Northern lords to reconsider their biases against women on the throne.

・So, by demonstrating strong leadership, it fostered greater acceptance of her rule among Northern houses, and increased their loyalty.

・This is only one example of how she got herself written in the history books.

𝑩𝒂𝒆𝒍𝒂 | 𝑻𝒉𝒆 𝑸��𝒆𝒆𝒏 𝒐𝒇 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝑺𝒌𝒊𝒆𝒔

・Known for her bravery and strong character, Baela brought a fresh perspective to the Iron Throne. She prioritized unity among tTeam Black and Team Green and those that chose between Rhaenyra and Aegon.

・Baela addressed the grievances from various houses and the common folk alike - making a more equitable society.

・Jace's death was a great grief. As was ... basically all her family. It was quickly pushed forward that she needed to marry.

・Baela shut that shit down quick.

・She swore that if she were to marry, she would choose who and when.

・The scars left by the civil war were still fresh in the minds of many houses. Those that aligned with the Greens, sought to undermine Baela's rule, viewing her as a representative of the Blacks. This historical animosity had led to plots and conspiracies aimed at destabilizing her reign

・But it is mainly through the dragons that Baela remained in control. As charming, bold and brave Baela can be, Moondancer ... reinforced people's loyalty. With the death of the majority of Team Green as well as their dragons, there was only other Houses to oppose her.

・She was also known as 'Our Queen of the Skies'. And after ruling for more than 20 years, the people saw Baela as a goddess.

・Some say she was part dragon herself, with how much she was in the air, flying on Moondancer (who many, many children adored.)

・Many rumors grew which made Baela seem impossibly mysterious

・It made the people respect her; and therefore they listened to what she had to say.

・Even the others in court grew to respect her.

・Baela, much like Alysanne, had a ladies court in which she listened to the problems they had.

・Spare food was always given to the smallfolk, unlike other rulers who gave it to the dogs or horses.

・Baela's approach to governance altered the trajectories of other key figures in the realm

・Her leadership focused on healing the divisions within the realm, strengthening alliances, and leveraging the power of dragons to maintain peace and order.

𝑹𝒉𝒂𝒆𝒏𝒂 | 𝑻𝒉𝒆 𝑷𝒆𝒐𝒑𝒍𝒆'𝒔 𝑸𝒖𝒆𝒆𝒏

・Yes! her name reflects Princess Diana's real life title, 'The People's Princess'!

・Her reign would be known as one of peace.

・Well, not only peace, but a unique one as well.

・Rhaena addressed the grievances of the common folk and fostered goodwill among the people of both regions through fair governance and an empathic approach.

・The People's Queen shocked many, many people with how strategic she showed herself to be.

・She did this by navigating the political landscape and carefully addressing the concerns of powerful houses in both the North and the South which led to stability.

・Used her access to dragons as a symbol of authority and a powerful military asset to deter rebellion and reinforce her position.

・Rhaena's dragon Morning, hatched during the Dance of the Dragons and kept growing

・She was a very friendly dragon - similar to Silverwing, and didn't mind being paraded around

・Her experience with the devastation of the Dance of the Dragons, made Rhaena prioritize healing the rifts within the realm.

・Rhaena had strong ties to both the dragonriders and the great naval power of House Velaryon. This continued an emphasis on the Targaryen dominance of the skies, and the Velaryon's dominance on the seas.

・Rhaena's reign ushered in a cultural renaissance. The People's Queen promoted the arts, literature, and education. Her leadership style encouraged creativity and innovation, reflecting a more progressive and enlightened era in Westeros.

[inwinterhell]

“Arya had named her after the warrior queen of the Rhoyne, who had led her people across the narrow sea.”

I love that this is the first detail that we get about Nymeria from Arya’s perspective. The show made Arya’s icon Visenya, and while I’ll agree it was a good opportunity for a lore dump, I feel like Nymeria gets to the core of Arya’s character in a way Visenya just doesn’t. Yes, Nymeria was a warrior. Yes, she and her people eventually fought against Valyria, but the thing Nymeria is known for is her ten thousand ships:

“Legend tells us that Nymeria took ten thousand ships to sea, searching for a new phome for her people beyond the long reach of Valyria and its dragonlords. Beldecar argues that this number was vastly inflated, perhaps as much as tenfold. Other chroniclers offer other numbers, but in truth no true count was ever made. We can safely say there were a great many ships. Most were river craft, skiffs and poleboats, trading galleys, fishing boats, pleasure barges, even rafts, their decks and holds crammed full of women and children and old men. Only one in ten was remotely seaworthy.” -TWOIAF

This is the most blatant historical parallel of the pack mentality that Arya holds dear to in she entire story. It didn’t matter if the ships were seaworthy, it didn’t matter who was in them; the Roynar were her people and she was getting them out of there.

Like,

“Gendry and Hot Pie were city-born, and in the city smallfolk walked. Yoren had given them mounts when he took them from King's Landing, but sitting on a donkey and plodding up the kingsroad behind a wagon was one thing. Guiding a hunting horse through wild woods and burned fields was something else.

She would make much better time on her own, Arya knew, but she could not leave them. They were her pack, her friends, the only living friends that remained to her.”

Of course Nymeria is Arya’s hero!!

Yes, the name of Arya’s wolf does show her gender non-conformity and her rejection of a traditional “lady’s” role. However (and imo more importantly), it shows that, to Arya, “warrior” is synonymous with “protector.”

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

Mad Queen Misogyny

All the mad queen Dany takes, from both D&D and the audience, are just plain misogyny. They are literally just repeats of common misogynistic ideas. D&D have given a few reasons for why they wrote the mad queen ending for Dany, and all of them are the same old misogynistic tropes of fantasy and mythology.

The Mad Queen:

I'm going to start this off by going into how the mad queen trope itself is rooted in misogyny. This is one of the oldest tropes in fantasy/fairytales. Whether it's Snow White's evil step mother or the Queen of Hearts, literature is riddled with mad queens.

The idea of the mad queen is informed by the desires of men to keep women out of power. Yes there are historical women who were horrible people and unstable when in power. However, those examples are not enough to justify the amount of times the trope occurs, especially since some of the examples occur after many stories have already been written (ie, Mary I and medieval fairytales). These fictional women were written as cautionary tales of what happens when a woman is placed in power.

By writing the mad queen Dany arc in GOT, D&D are perpetuating an old trope rather than "subverting" anything as they claim. The most powerful woman in the world turning out to be a war mongering and mass murdering tyrant isn't subversive in any way. The only reason it was surprising was because it came out of nowhere narratively.

ASOIAF fans who constantly try to justify this turn for Dany's book character are attempting to do the same thing D&D did. They want to employ an ancient trope to justify their dislike for her in name of being "subversive".

The Violent Woman:

A trope that stretches back all the way to the Ancient Greeks is that of the angry, homicidal woman in power. From Hera to Medea, the myths are full of women who commit atrocities simply because of anger. This trope isn't just about avenging a slight or retribution on the guilty; it's about a woman taking out her anger on innocent parties.

Daenerys has fallen into the role of the avenger many times throughout both the show and and book. She killed Mirri Maz Duur for the murder of her son and husband. She killed the Undying for attempting to trap/kill her. She kills Kraznys mo Nakloz and many other slavers for the atrocities they commit constantly on the people they enslaved.

In the show, she imprisoned Xaro Xhoan Daxos and Doreah in a vault for killing Irri and helping the warlocks steal her children. She killed the Khals who threatened to rape her. She kills the Tarleys for rebelling against the Tyrells, thus getting them killed, and refusing to bend the knee.

Every time Dany killed up until season eight, it was purely because those she killed harmed her or her allies/children. That is why none of her past kills justify her burning KL. The people of KL did nothing to her; it's not an established part of her character to harm innocents out of anger. She even outright condemns the killing of innocents in earlier seasons.

The inconsistencies show how D&D chose to blatantly ignore the complexities of Dany's character in favor of a sexist trope. They perpetuated the idea that a woman in power who is angered will ultimately commit injustice and atrocities.

Dany antis in the ASOIAF fandom are no different from D&D. A common argument used by Dany and Targaryen antis is that they are bound to be corrupt and tyrannical because they have dragons. Essentially saying that Dany was doomed to be the villain the moment she hatched her children.

They point to her dragons' existence and her conquest in Essos as reasons for her "villain arc", despite the fact that none of her actions reflect the things they claim. Dany is simply being condemned for being a woman with power; it's expected of her to be a tyrant for those reasons alone.

The Woman Scorned:

This reasoning given by D&D in a behind the episode interview is probably the excuse that I hate the most. They said that one of the reasons for Dany's descent into madness was because Jon Snow refused to kiss her back once he found out they were aunt and nephew. This is an insanely misogynistic trope.

Used time and again by writers (mostly male), this trope is about a woman who becomes an antagonist due to rejection, unrequited love, or betrayal from a lover. In the case of Dany and GOT, it's Jon refusing to continue their romantic relationship.

For some reason, this is seen as a breaking point for Dany. A woman who has endured poverty, homelessness, sexual slavery, a traumatic miscarriage and death of a spouse/protector, and the stresses of war was broken by a man refusing to kiss her. Doesn't that sound fucking stupid? Well that's because it is.

Dany has never felt entitled to people's love (with the exception of shitty writing from D&D) let alone someone's sexual/romantic reciprocation. It's out of character and flat out insulting to women to believe that is enough to make Dany into a mass murdering tyrant.

Once again, there are members of the fandom who espouse this reasoning into their own theories and metas. Jonsas especially are guilty of this; some claiming that Jon's rejection of Dany in favor of Sansa will be a catalyst for the "mad queen".

An offshoot of this thinking, is the idea that Dany went/will go mad because she was rejected by the realm.

In the show, the Northmen are dismissive or outright hostile to Dany when she arrives (even after she saves them). Due to this rejection by the Westerosi people, Dany decides "let it be fear" and chooses to burn KL to the ground.

Once again, this idea isn't grounded in her past actions at all. Dany has always known she needs to earn people's love and respect as a ruler, why should she change her mind the moment she steps onto Westerosi soil? The answer is simple: she's a woman, so she can't possibly be able to deal with rejection.

Fans theorize constantly that Dany is going to go mad and destroy KL and Westeros because the people will definitely reject her in favor of Young Griff/Jon Snow/any other king they can think of. This theory is simply clinging to misogynistic ideas about women and it's disgusting in every iteration (it also dismisses the fact that there are people in Westeros excited about the idea of Dany and her dragons in the books but that's a different post).

The Woman Bereft:

This argument is probably the least outright in its misogyny. The idea that a woman who has lost everything will lose her mind isn't a new one and it can be played in a non-sexist way. However, GOT played it completely in the sexist roots of the trope.

Throughout seasons seven and eight, Dany loses basically everything. All but one of her children, her closest advisor and best friend Missandei, Ser Jorah, a massive chunk of her army, her other advisors, most of her allies, and is rejected by Westeros and Jon. That's a lot of loss to endure.

However, Dany has endured severe loss before and never reacted by murdering a city full of innocents. Again, this decision and descent isn't backed up by anything else in her storyline.

The sexism of this idea, that loss produces mad women, is that it's rarely applied to men in the same situations. For example: Tyrion lost everything he cared about, yet he's never written by D&D to be in danger of becoming a mass murderer. He even outright says he wishes he'd poisoned the whole court, but is never portrayed as a mad man by D&D or fans.

Dany is expected to go insane after enduring loss because she's a woman. She's perceived as being fundamentally weaker, mentally as well as physically, so she must be more vulnerable to madness than the male characters.

The Foreign Seductress:

The idea of the foreign seductress is a xenophobic and racist stereotype. For Dany, her antis use the instances of her exercising sexual autonomy and her life in Essos as fodder for this disparaging trope.

In the books and the show, Dany pursues sexual and romantic relationships outside of marriage. This is something that doesn't fall in line with the medieval setting of the world. In Westeros and Essos, it's common for men to do that, but not women, due to systematic misogyny. Because of this, Dany's antis often feel free to argue that because she doesn't act "pure", she is wrong and evil. Dany's bound to become a villain because she isn't a chaste and "good" woman.

In the same way, Dany is painted as wrong for wanting to take her family's throne purely because she wasn't raised in Westeros. She's perceived as a foreign invader by both her antis and D&D.

D&D wrote many scenes of outright xenophobia from the Northmen, Sansa, and Arya towards Dany and her forces without ever condemning those ideas. In fact, they justify them by writing the mad queen ending. The fact that Dany isn't "one of them" is used as an excuse for her descent.

Dany antis also employ this rhetoric, especially when people compare Dany's conquest for the IT to the Starks' desire to retake Winterfell. It's good for the Starks to want to retake their throne because they were raised in Winterfell, but Dany has no right to her ancestral home because she wasn't raised in Westeros.

However, this idea is never applied to Young Griff, who was also not raised in Westeros. Despite this, people will talk about how excited they are for his story and how sad it is that he's totally going to be murdered by his evil aunt. Once again a double standard is applied to Dany.

All this is because Dany is a woman who refuses to conform to patriarchal standards and was raised in a foreign country.

Never Good Enough:

Dany antis and D&D thrive on applying a different set of standards to Dany than other characters. They do this an a way that's reminiscent of the double standards set for women even today.

No matter what Dany does, it's never good enough for them. She dealt with Viserys and his death in the wrong way. She didn't protect her people in the right way. She tried to abolish slavery in the wrong way. She saved the goddamn world wrong. Like nothing Dany does is right in their eyes.

In their minds, Dany should've died in AGOT being a perfectly passive woman. She refused to submit to those (men) around her, and for that they punish her.

She's wrong for fighting the slavers, she's wrong for trying to avenge murdered children, she's evil for killing to protect herself. D&D used each of her actions throughout the show that they seemed too aggressive as justification for what they wrote. Dany's antis do the exact same thing in their theories.

The mad queen Dany theory is rooted completely in misogyny. It has no true justification in the narrative and every argument conjured up is just as sexist as the trope they want to perpetuate.

[witchlingcirce]

Sansa getting Jeyne Pooles storyline in the show actually makes me so mad!

Even with the way Sansa is at the end of the story, it legit would have made more sense for her to stay at the vale and be an apprentice under little finger!! And also the fact they not only waited for Sophie Turner to turn 18, they also lied to her and told her she would be getting a really good love interest 🤨

Sophie Turner you deserved Harrold Hardying and also deserved the Vale storyline

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

Do you know why no one’s attempted to bond with Vermithor until now? At least in show verse. Daemon’s ego at least seems like he would have wanted him. And the way the show’s apparently bent the lore enough to where Rhaenyra can touch him unscathed..seems like Vermithor actually inexplicably liked her lol to the point where it seems had she attempted to bond with him in her youth she may have been successful.

In show-verse, we're told that Daemon wanted Meleys (his late mother's dragon), and after Meleys rejected him and accepted Rhaenys instead, he bonded with Caraxes (Rhaenys's late father's dragon). I'm not sure exactly when all this was going on in HOTD time, but in book-verse Rhaenys was 13 and Daemon was 6 when she claimed Meleys in 87 AC (three years after Alyssa had died), and Daemon didn't claim Caraxes until he was at least 11, after Aemon died in 92 AC. But either way it doesn't matter, Jaehaerys died in 103 AC, so Vermithor wasn't freed up until then.

Now, Book!Rhaenyra first rode Syrax in 104 AC, when she was 7. Show!Rhaenyra has the same birth year, and show!Jaehaerys's death year is also the same. So Vermithor was available at the time Rhaenyra first rode Syrax (assuming that show!Rhaenya also became a dragonrider at age 7). However, it is frequently assumed that Syrax was a cradle egg (though the book says nothing one way or the other, and neither has the show). In the book Syrax is called "young" when Rhaenyra first flew her; HOTD's 1st episode script, when Rhaenyra is 14, calls Syrax "adolescent". It's quite possible Rhaenyra had no interest in Vermithor because she had her birth-bonded dragon to ride once she was big enough.

Alternatively, it's possible that the Dragonkeepers warned 7-year-old Rhaenyra away from the notably grouchy and angry Vermithor and towards a younger dragon more suitable for her age, as they did when Alyssa initially wanted to claim Balerion. In general I'd suspect that would be the case for most young dragonriders, at least the ones who weren't already bonded to cradle-egg dragons. (As Rhaenyra's sons were; it's unclear whether Sunfyre and Tessarion were cradle eggs, or bonded while very young.) And we know it was suggested that Aemond pick out a dragon egg or hatchling, before he claimed Vhagar by himself.

So yeah, I figure the Dragonkeepers would very much prefer not to see a repeat of the deeply unfortunate Aerea incident, where it was Balerion in control, taking the 12-year-old girl to his definition of home, not hers. Let alone allowing a young prince or princess to get flamed to ash on their watch. When someone young does go for a massive old dragon (Laena or Aemond with Vhagar), it seems most likely it's done where the busybody protective Dragonkeepers can't interfere... which was not Rhaenyra's situation in King's Landing.

I hope that helps!

[winterprince601]

"he was never unfaithful to robert, was he?" - jaime, acok

ha. ha ha ha. the irony of this line is incredible. what's so striking to me is how one dimensional the realm's understanding of eddard stark as an honourable man is - honour itself is an incredibly complicated and unattainable ideal in asoiaf and i think ned as the stereotypical emblem of it encompasses many of the reasons why. because whilst he absolutely does consider acting in a conventionally honourable way important, he always prioritises those he loves. he defended cat's actions as his own without a second thought when she arrested tyrion. his main priority in king's landing is to see his daughters safe, not to secure the succession. lyanna is the prime example: jon's existence is not the result of the lapse of honourable ned stark, it was honourable ned stark choosing his love for his sister over his duty to his king. that and his personal ethical belief that the political murder of a child is never morally acceptable.

no one in the realm has the insight into his personality we get in the first book. none of his children, vitally, understand that he would always prioritise their safety over any honourable scruples. all of the starklings question what their honourable father would think of their actions - killing in self-defence, marrying jeyne westerling, sleeping with ygritte to name a few examples - without recognising that ned's true first priority was always his family's safety.

in fact, he betrayed robert far more than he ever betrayed cat and he would have betrayed honour for his family's safety every time.

[naggascradle]

honestly the moment i stopped thinking about asoiaf as trying to be historical fiction and realized that grrm still writes like a scifi writer, my understanding of how everything in the series works meta-wise improved significantly.

like think about it. scifi as a genre is about making criticisms of current modern culture, but placed in a futuristic time period in order to take modern concepts and take them to their most extreme examples in order to emphasize them & say something about them. is a song of ice and fire not doing the same thing of taking modern criticisms and placing them in a different time period, just backwards in time instead of forwards?

yes a huge amount isn't historically accurate, but he isn't trying to be. he's making commentary on modern society with a veneer of the medieval!

[bunbunbl0gs]

Modern Arya 🔪

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