#got meta

[vesper-the-solitaire]

An other:

Aegon IV and Aerys II: both had derogatory but truthful nicknames, both went downhill in their lives (although the seeds of this were visible at a young age). Both married their younger sisters lovelessly towards which they were abusive, and had difficulty having trueborn children, with the exception of their firstborn. Both had extremely difficult relationships with said firstborn and a younger daughter named Daenerys. Finally, both were known to have a large number of lovers, both official and otherwise (a relatively rare trait among Targaryens, after all).

Interesting Targaryen parallels:

Jaehaerys I/Alysanne and Jaehaerys II/Shaera: both couples had a parent who wanted to abolish incest, both were sincerely in love with each other and for this reason they ran away, married in secret and managed to impose their will on their parent.

Aenys I and Viserys I: both known as conciliatory and impressionable people, but both proved incredibly stubborn over a single controversial decision (incest for Aenys and Rhaenyra's whereabouts for Viserys) whose consequences threatened to destroy the dynasty.

[asha-mage]

I think the philosophical difference between Wheel of Time and Game of Thrones's class politics is best shown in how they depict their servant characters.

Take Lini and Lars as really good examples: they are a nurse and cook respectively, and lack any sort of structural power or protection at all, something they both are very aware of. But despite their relatively low place in society they are still principled, intelligent, women who the narrative treats with a lot of respect. Lars's acts of mercy and courage come up repeatedly- from refusing to be part of what she sees as unjust punishments of novices in The Dragon Reborn, to smuggling Siuan, Leane and Min to safety in The Shadow Rising, to being ready to break Egwene free of her imprisonment herself in Knife of Dreams. Keyly, Lars does all this not out of any loyalty to other more powerful characters, but entirely because of her own sense of right and wrong. She has no concern for the shifts in Tower politics because that is completely out of her control and she knows it. Rather she makes choices based entirely on what she thinks is right, refusing to be complicit in something she thinks is wrong and taking huge risks to do what she can for others whenever the opportunity presents itself.

In the same vein Lini, while personally loyal to Morgase and her family, is one of the few people in Morgase's life who is willing to treat her as a human being first and a Queen second: speaking her mind even when she knows it will upset Morgase, giving honest advice and wisdom, and generally refusing to acknowledge the huge power gap in their relationship- and Morgase not only allows this but clearly values it, even when it makes her angry, because with Lini she doesn't have to have any pretense, and she can trust the sincerity of Lini's words in a way she can't with courtiers and other rulers. When Lini helps Morgase escape the palace in The Fires of Heaven, she isn't doing it out of fealty to her Queen the way the rest of the team is. She is doing it because she cares for Morgase as a individual, and as a girl she helped raise to adulthood. As they continue on the run, the nuance and complexities of their relationship are explored more heavily- particularly after Morgase abdicates, and Lini's loyalty endures, because it was never about Morgase's throne or her power, but her as a person.

Contrast that with the way Games of Thrones depicts it's servants. The only ones who receive any real depth of character exploration are a few of the House Stark servants, and even then they exist largely as extensions of their masters. Old Nan and Hodor lack agency of their own, and they are not treated as having value by the narrative as independent characters, or having interior lives, motivations, or relationships to complexly explore. Even if we stretch the definition of servant to include a clerical tutor like Septa Mordane and the (presumably) commoner born Knight Rodrik Cassel this picture doesn't improve- because the primary role of both is to suffer and be harmed as a way to hurt other, more important characters.

And this is something you can walk out to pretty much the entire way the two worlds are built. Every time Jordan shows off a new place from Fal Dara to the Waste he remembers to answer the question 'who is cleaning the chamber pots and cooking the meals the sweeping the streets'- and some of his most interesting world building details from the Aiel gai'shain, to the structure of Borderlander's households via the shambayan and shatayan are born of his answers. More over he remembers that those people have humanity: their own wants, needs, and beliefs that are important to them even if they aren't important players in the scope of the narrative. Even if our heroes are stopping at a random inn for a single night, Jodan doesn't forget to show that inn is staffed with people who are going about their own lives entirely independently of the main characters who just wandered in.

By contrast the commoners in Westeros are largely invisible except when they are being impacted by the actions of the noble characters. The idea of the 'small folk' is presented as this nebulous concept, a vaguely homogeneous monolith that in theory is supposed to matter to the nobles but in practice doesn't really- which would an interesting class commentary if the narrative didn't also treat them that way- as if their only real value is being the foundation on which these power struggles are being fought. We're not encouraged to empathize with the cook, or the street sweeper, or the maid gathering laundry because we're not directed to notice them unless they are being a problem, which is exactly how all the nobles in Game of Thrones behave. There's also no nuance or complexity to the relationships between servants and their masters- it is only an expectation of simple obedience, and no energy is ever expended on the relationships between servants at all.

Wheel of Time from the beginning takes the position that everyone maters- maybe not to the fates of nations and the path of destiny, but to themselves and to the story that is being told. Game of Thrones takes the position that only nobles matter and everyone else matters only in relation to them- which for a story ultimately about an aristocratic civil war is fine, but it limits the depth of the world and the ability to say anything meaningful about class or society.

[babylonfelldown]

I saw a tiktok about Jon and Theon and it made me remember how fuking insane their dynamic is

They're broken mirrors of each other: both of them just want the starks to see them as family, they want to feel wanted, they envy and hate each other.

Theon is a trueborn son of a great house, an heir even, but at the same time he's treated as a squire and a ward when convenient, (he helps Ned and Robb), he's also seen as a hostage and a threat, never quite trustworthy. He says repeatedly that he never felt wellcome by the Starks and that the only one to have any affection for him was Robb. Theon dreams to be wed to Sansa, not because he loves her, but because them he would be a son for Ned. He envies Jon because even being a bastard he's loved by Ned (ln a way neither Ned or his actual father loved him), his sibilings (all of them) love him, even if Lady Stark doesn't like him, he is family in Theon's eyes.

Jon is a bastard, he's a shame that must remain hidden, it doesn't matter how much Ned or his sibilings love him, he will never be a true Stark in the eyes of westerosi society. He is trusted but his loyality is always at question, Jon is a threat to Robb's claim in many peoples eyes, like he wants his brothers birthright, and the worst of it all is: he does. He desperately wants to be a trueborn son, but he loves Robb deeply, more than he could ever wish to be legitimate. He envies Theon because he is a trueborn son, he is an heir, he will get to have a wife and children of his own, legitimate children that won't be called names.

Truely insane dynamic of hatred and envy that culminates with both of them trying to one up each other on everything.

[sad-endings-suck]

Me: *is sad*

Me: *Remembers that both Dany and Sandor are horse girls.*

Me: *is less sad*

[bbygirl-aemond]

When Dragons Disobey Their Riders

Hi all! I wanted to comment on something that recurs in both Fire and Blood and A Song of Ice and Fire: Instances of dragons blatantly disobeying their riders, often even after multiple attempts by their riders to correct them. If you look at the context of the scenes where this occurs, I think it actually does a lot to show us the level of intelligence and agency that dragons have. Most importantly, in all of the scenes I'm about to discuss, the dragon is not disobeying their rider out of malevolent intent. They are actually trying to protect their rider, and think that their rider is making a request that would put them in danger.

Our first mention of this is with Alysanne Targaryen and her dragon Silverwing, in Fire and Blood. Alysanne is up North, by the Wall, and attempts three separate times to direct Silverwing north of the wall, but Silverwing refuses each time. Some people think Silverwing was wary of the cold, but I think this is unlikely since otherwise she would have refused to come that far north entirely. I think it's much more likely that Silverwing knew some freaky magic was going on beyond the Wall, and that it could be very dangerous for her rider.

Our second mention of this is with Area Targaryen and her dragon Balerion, in Fire and Blood. On her first ride with Balerion, Aerea disappeared for over a year, and both rider and dragon returned severely injured. Aerea's illness in particular was just straight up terrifying and very gorey, and she eventually died from it. Because of this, it's suspected that Balerion actually took Aerea to Old Valyria and that they encountered some freaky magic there. At this point in time, Aerea was trying to escape and go home, and there's a popular theory that Balerion, doing his best to obey her request, took her to the place he thought of as his home.

Our third mention of this is with Lucerys Velaryon and his dragon Arrax, in Season 1 Episode 10 of HotD. When dragon and rider are being pursued by a much bigger dragon, Lucerys is unable to calm Arrax down, and he attacks, which eventually leads to both of their deaths. Arrax is quite young, and he very obviously did this because he was feeling cornered and threatened, and felt like he had to defend himself and his rider.

Our fourth mention of this is with Aemond Targaryen and his dragon Vhagar, in the same episode, right after Arrax's attack. If you go back and look at GIFs of what this attack actually presented as, note the side the attack came from. Arrax flames Vhagar's entire head, and he does it from her left side-- the same side where her rider is blind, specifically because Arrax's rider blinded her rider. It's no wonder Vhagar retaliated; she felt that her rider had been attacked in a very vulnerable place by the same person who made her rider vulnerable and never demonstrated remorse for doing so.

Our fifth and final mention of this is with Daenerys Targaryen and her dragon Drogon, in the A Song of Ice and Fire series. For those of you who watched Game of Thrones, I'm talking about the scene in Mereen where Drogon rescues her from the assassination attempt in the fighting pits. Daenerys wants to remain in Mereen and continue to try to handle the conflict there, but Drogon ignores her commands and flies far off into the wilderness. As far as Drogon's concerned, Mereen isn't safe for Daenerys, so why should she want to stay there?

I think these instances all point to dragons being intelligent, but not enough to really understand politics--that, or they don't care. Vhagar doesn't understand or care that killing Arrax and Lucerys will cause a war; just as Drogon doesn't understand or care that Daenerys wants to remain in Mereen to rule. They prioritize their riders' wellbeing and demonstrate that they don't always think their riders know best. This makes a ton of sense especially for the older, more experienced dragons, who probably had to make more decisions during combat in order to keep their riders alive rather than just waiting for commands.

[silly-anshe]

Cersei and Dany have more parallels than Cersei and Sansa yet Sansa always gets compared to Cersei whilst Dany gets to stand on her own :/

(Sorry for taking ages to answer this.)

The way I see it, GRRM actually wants us to see and compare the three. To see them, in a way, as a triad:

It's no secret that George loves to use the rule of three (I talk about it a little bit here.) The way I see it when it comes to Cersei/Dæny/Sansa is to compare their ruling styles, especially since they're the strongest candidates to wield power by the end of the series (I'm talking exclusively about book canon, but we can take show canon into consideration since they are the last three big female characters wielding power by the final season.)

At first, Cersei and Dæny are foils, in a way. Cersei calls herself Queen (which she is, first Queen Regent/Dowager Queen, by being Robert's wife, then Queen Mother by being Joffrey and Tommen's mother). Dæny, however, in the beginning, rejects the title of Queen, saying that she's a Khaleesi. As the series progresses (specifically since she's -at least to her knowledge- the last Targaryen), she uses both titles: rightful Queen of the Seven Kingdoms and Khaleesi. So, this would be where the contrast stops working when it comes to these two ladies: they both call themselves Queen, but most importantly, they seek that title because they're motivated by power and the desire to have the Iron Throne. Sure, their motivations are not exactly the same, but they can be boiled down to one word: survival.

(I've spoken about characters motivated by power in the quest for the Iron Throne and what the narrative does to them in show canon, but I can't find the posts, so I'm sorry.)

Now, what part does Sansa play in all of this? Well, we're told in the first book that she's meant to be Queen. After all, she was promised to the prince of the Seven Kingdoms. And she wants to be Queen... until Joffrey orders the execution of Ned. Then, we notice a change in Sansa: she's not interested in the games of intrigue, in the subterfuge. It can all be encapsulated in this quote: "If I am ever Queen, I'll make them love me."

Cersei thinks the best way to rule is to make the people fear you more than they could ever fear the enemy. And that's precisely what she does during her time in power. So, she rules by fear.

Dæny is benevolent to those suffering injustice. But she's also severe regarding those she disagrees with or thinks have interests that go against hers. She is not forgiving. In my eyes, she also has a fatal flaw - she's not interested in the day-to-day tasks that come with being a ruler, as shown in her stint in Meereen. She also relies on her dragons and the Targaryen legacy to instill fear in those who don't want to submit to her. She rules by good faith when it comes to the marginalized and outpowering the powerful with her dragons and armies. So, she rules by power and, to some extent, fear.

Sansa is benevolent with people. She knows what is expected of her as a Lady while in King's Landing. In the Eyrie, she learns to run a household and the day-to-day tasks that come with running a Great Keep like the Eyrie. But that's not all she learns throughout the series. She understands the importance of politics and how to exercise that power. She also understands people's importance; let them be Lords, Ladies, Common Folk, or bastards. She sees their value regarding of station. Also, since the end of the first book, she doesn't get fooled by the nobility; she's more distrustful of their true intentions, and that distrust makes her read each person she encounters more carefully, which, in time, will make her a keen politician (all in all, and this is what sets her apart from Cersei and Dæny, she's not actively seeking to rule. And, when it comes to the rule of three, the last link is the one that differs from the other two and, for that reason, is the successful one.) Sansa is compassionate with those deserving of compassion and sometimes with those who are not, but she's never cruel like Dæny can be or vengeful like Cersei is. This is not to say that she bends to the will of others because she doesn't. She stopped doing it back in King's Landing, starting with small acts of defiance. In the Eyrie, she's on a journey to finding her voice. So, she rules by compassion and observation.

Now, how does the rule of three apply in this instance? Let's first define what the "rule of three" is:

The rule of threes is a writing principle that suggests that three elements, such as events or characters, are more humorous, satisfying, and effective than other numbers. Audiences of texts in this format are also more likely to retain the information conveyed to them. This is because having three entities minimizes the amount of information needed to create the pattern, combining both brevity and rhythm.

By giving us different styles of ruling/approaches to power in threes, GRRM is making sure those ways stick with the readers. He's making it known that the approaches to power and ruling are important for the endgame: this factor will contribute to who ends up in power at the end of the story.

One could argue that the use of the rule of three in comparing Cersei, Dæny, and Sansa is rhetoric: he's comparing three different ruling styles, and we, as the readers, can decide who might be better suited for the title of Queen based on the rhetoric the characters present. (I speak about the difference between Dæny and Sansa - and Jon - as figures of authority here and here. Keep in mind that those metas explore the dynamics of the characters in the show.)

Cersei doesn't give a shit about anyone but herself and her family. She rules with an iron fist and doesn't hesitate to annihilate anyone threatening her power. She rules alone.

Dæny cares about people and uses her power (her dragons) to achieve some of her more altruistic goals, but at the end of the day, those goals are not entirely altruistic since they also serve her. She also uses that power to intimidate and cause fear. To top it all off, she relies heavily on the power that her dragons represent, even though she tries to use politics as a more subtle way to solve problems, but she realizes that if she wants to change the world as she wishes, she needs brute force. She needs her dragons. She uses both power and fear in any situation, whether it is good or bad. She, too, rules alone, even though she has people giving her counsel. (Though that can be explained with Targaryen exceptionalism, in a way. But that's a whole other thing, and this has gotten too long already)

Sansa, on the other hand, is more surgical in her approach. She sees the value in relationships and working together. She sees the value of people and the importance of day-to-day tasks. She relies on her powers of observation and what she's learned in court to solve problems. She rules by understanding: by understanding that she has to work together with people in areas she's lacking and by understanding the potential of each person around her. She rules by working together with those around her.

In conclusion, Cersei and Sansa have always been foils to each other, and that's been set from the get-go. You could say the same about Cersei and Dæny, too. But, as the series progresses, the lines dividing Cersei's style of ruling from Dæny's start to blur, leaving this triad somewhat like this:

[princesssszzzz]

Fire & Blood (HOTD) // A Game of Thrones (GOT) Imagery & Parallels

Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts." "Arya learns to fight in the Braavosi water dancer style with Needle." (AGOT, Arya II)

“Baela’s dragon, the slender pale green Moondancer would soon be large enough to bear the girl upon her back." “... a pale pink hatchling with black horns and crest, Rhaena named her Morning.” (Fire and Blood, 432 & 593)

“[Baela] is wild, willful, and wanton, as we feared,” (Fire and Blood, 648)

“[Baela] was as wild and willful a young woman as any in the realm” (Fire and Blood, 645)

“[Arya’s] long horsey face got the stubborn look that meant she was going to do something willful.” (AGOT, Sansa I)

“And Arya … he missed her....so fierce and willful.” (AGOT, Jon III)

“Septa Amarys, who had been given charge of her religious and moral instruction, despaired of her, and even Septon Eustace could not seem to curb her wild ways.” (Fire and Blood, 646)

“Rhaena’s egg had hatched a broken thing that died within hours of emerging from the egg” (Fire and Blood, 432-3)

“Lady was dead” (ASOS, Sansa IV)

“Rhaena enjoyed a life of comfort and privilege, with maids brushing her hair and drawing her baths. Singers composed odes to her beauty, and knights jousted for her favor (Fire and Blood)

“She loved King's Landing; the pageantry of the court, the high lords and ladies in their velvets and silks and gemstones, the great city with all its people.” (AGOT, Sansa III)

“It would please me if he was not so old he could not give me children, nor so fat that he would crush me when we are abed. So long as he is kind and gentle and noble, I know that I shall love him.” (Fire and Blood, 649)

“When you're old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord who's worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong.”(AGOT, Sansa II)

"He's just stupid. He likes to polish helmets and beat on swords with hammers." Arya about the (legitimized bastard) Gendry

"You fool, you thrice-damned fool. If I dared, I would have your bloody head off." Unwin Peake to (legitimized bastard) Alyn

“Baela's dragon brought down our late king. There are many in the realm who will not have forgotten that. Crown her and we will rip all the old wounds open once again”(Fire and Blood)

[mayberobbsa]

probably not that interesting to anyone else, and too small a thing, but it's quite intriguing for me

the frey girl robb's supposed to marry, roslin, shared a slight physical similarity to sansa... she had chestnut hair, which is a mix of brown-red (A Storm of Swords, p. 712). she was also gentle natured and had a talent for music- which can also be seen as similarities to sansa, who was gentle and had a love for music and romantic things

in a way, he betrayed sansa twice- once when he refused to exchange jamie for her, and once in although unknowingly, going for someone who looked the opposite of her instead of someone with a similar feature and doing so lead to his demise

[kadarakey]

Some of the best character analysis of Sansa I’ve come across 🩵🩵🩵

[rainhadaenerys]

I just learned that Daenerys and Zuko, my favorite characters, both have the duduk as the signature instrument of their musical themes (X, X).

[whateverthedragonswant]

The Iron Islands Was Never Getting Independence - 6x09 & 8x02 Parallels

So I was rewatching GoT for reasons and I came across this 6x09 scene (love that episode!!!) and I already kind of knew that they were setting up Jon's, Dany's, and Sansa's endgame in this episode, setting them up for their final chapter, but now rewatching it, it blows me away just how obvious it was how things were going to pan out in the end. That Dany would be the final boss. That it was going to revolve around her, Jon, and Sansa. All that.

This scene is one of those obvious instances.

Theon and Yara have always been mirrors for Jon and Sansa since Theon and Yara reunited after Ramsay. For their sibling relationship as well as the power pair they present and represent for their home/family/kingom. In this 6x09 scene, it's no different.

A lot of people have made the point that Dany granted the Iron Islands their independence because Yara/Theon asked while she didn't grant the North to Sansa/Jon because Sansa demanded. They couldn't be more wrong. It's all right here in the dialogue:

Dany: "You've brought us a hundred ships from the Iron Fleet with men to sail them. In return I expect you'll want me to support your claim to the throne of the Iron Islands?" - here nothing about independence is brought up yet but here it makes the dynamic clear: they would need Dany's support for the claim to the Salt Throne, meaning 1) that "kingship" is less than the king/queen of the 7K and it's only allowed to continue for a certain individual if the ruler of the 7K allows it, and 2) she is not coming from a mindset of granting them independence or acquiescing to their request

Theon: "Not my claim. Hers."

Dany: "Oh, what's wrong with you?" - for a woman who wants to rule the 7K in a place she has been told that no other Queen has ruled in (this is right before Cersei takes the IT), it's odd that instead of asking "why is that?" or "oh? interesting" or even being happy about another woman in a ruling position that's granted less than hers, it's an odd question to ask what's wrong with Theon -- I think the writers did this purposely to show a subtle difference between Dany's rhetoric that she consistently sells and how she actually is while also implying she intends to be the only Queen in the 7K, right down to the sub-monarchies (if that's a word)

Theon: "I'm not fit to rule."

Tyrion: "We can agree upon that at least."

Dany: "Has the Iron Islands ever had a queen before?" - oh, suddenly she's interested to hear this fact, why? because it now helps turn up the flames of hope for her destiny so to speak

Yara: "No more than Westeros."

Theon: "Our uncle Euron returned home after a long absence. He murdered our father and took the Salt Throne from Yara. He would've murdered us if we stayed." - what's interesting here is not only are Euron and Dany paralleled this season but also Theon/Yara are the antithesis of Viserys/Dany considering that's what happened to them, the latter two's father was killed in the rebellion/the IT being taken and they would have been killed had they not fled; but it also proves again that Theon/Yara are Jon/Sansa mirrors because Ned was murdered, the North was taken from Bran (aka the future rightful king after the vote in 8x06) by Theon and then it was taken by Ramsay, Bran & Rickon had to flee and then Sansa and Theon had to flee Ramsay

Dany: "Lord Tyrion tells me your father was a terrible king."

Yara: "You and I have that in common." - it's true, they do, but I'm also highlighting this line because it comes back around in 8x02

Dany: "We do. And both murdered by a usurper as well. Will their ships be enough?" - Dany immediately switches gears here - she sees the commonality they have, something she always uses when spreading her rhetoric to gain allies and subjects followers, but switches to "hey, do we have enough or no?" Meaning depending on the answer is what depends on her agreeing to ally with Theon and Yara

Tyrion: "With the former Masters' fleet, possibly. Barely. There are more than a hundred ships in the Iron Fleet." - if this line doesn't have Davos' line from 7x02 "If they break through the wall, do we have enough men to fight them?" & Jon bringing Dany and her dragons North to fight the Night King vibes all over it...

Theon: "There are. And Euron is building more. He's going to offer them to you."

Dany: "So why shouldn't I wait for him?" - this is exactly the same type of attitude we see displayed in 7x03-7x06; after everything she's just heard about Euron so far, no hesitation, "if he's got more ships why shouldn't I wait for him?"; a lot of people defend Dany's reluctance to help the North because of Jon's outrageous claims of the dead walking, she doesn't know who he is right away, and he should bow to her because the North is rightfully hers - but this line right here, it shows she only has one goal in mind and it's not to come to save people from a tyrant or to instill the rightful ruler back on the IT so she can leave the world better than she found it for her people - this is before the reception she gets in Westeros and then the North - it's RIGHT HERE

Theon: "The Iron Fleet isn't all he's bringing. He also wants to give you--"

Yara: "His big cock I think he said. Euron's offer is also an offer of marriage, you see. You won't get one without the other." - we see in 6x10 that Dany is more than well aware that she most likely will have to marry to secure an alliance over in Westeros, the when being the only question besides who - she knew this from what happened in Mereen and how she was going to have to marry to keep the peace before all hell broke loose, she knows this

Dany: "And I imagine your offer is free of any marriage demands?" - so now she's considering their offer, while she says this almost teasingly to Yara, we know that she knows she has to marry at some point and if she can secure the whole Iron Fleet, why wouldn't she? Especially since her single-minded focus is the IT? Because she doesn't want to marry aka she doesn't want to share power (something we see in season 8 after Jon tells her who he really is and how hard she works to keep him in that subservient dynamic by forbidding him from telling anyone) which is also how you can tell that throne room scene dialogue in 8x06 was rewritten in the 11th hour at Emilia's request (something she has gone on record admitting to), it was meant to be Dance of the Dragons 2.0 and it was coming down to one of them prevailing over the other

Yara: "I never demand but I'm up for anything really."

Theon: "He murdered our father and would have murdered us. He'll murder you as soon as he has what he wants." - not only are we getting another Aerys/Viserys/Dany reminder here but now Dany has her justification for not entertaining Euron's would-be proposal and allying herself to Yara and Theon despite their lower number of ships (I don't blame her here, I'm just calling a spade a spade)

Tyrion: "The Seven Kingdoms."

Theon: "All of them."

Dany: "And you don't want the Seven Kingdoms?" - exactly what she has been worried about - she's never wanted to share them so she's making doubly sure

Theon: "Your ancestors defeated ours. They took the Iron Islands, we ask you to give them back." - as Dany will remind us and Jon in 7x03, Torrhen Stark bent the knee to Aegon Targaryen, the original conqueror she's been trying to be the second coming of - this not only has the North vibes due to that parallel but because it also links to 8x02

Dany: "And that's all?" - sounds like here it's simple for Dany, right? Wrong...

Yara: "We'd like you to help us murder an uncle or two who don't think a woman's fit to rule." - another line echoed in 8x02

Dany: "Reasonable." - about killing the uncle

Tyrion: "What if everyone starts demanding their independence?" - not only should Tyrion not be asking Dany this in the presence of Yara/Theon who have not been made allies officially yet, it's obvious they're having him point this out because it's going to lead to what happens in 8x02

Dany: "She's not demanding. She's asking. The others are free to ask as well." - 'which doesn't mean they'll get it' is the end of that sentence

Dany: "Our fathers were evil men. All of us here. They left the world worse than they found it. We're not going to do that. We're going to leave the world better than we found it." - more Dany rhetoric

Dany: "You will support my claim as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms and respect the integrity of the Seven Kingdoms." THIS IS HER ANSWER RIGHT HERE - no independence for you Iron Islands, you're still a sub-monarchy but part of my 7K so no you don't get them back

Dany: "No more reaving, roving, raiding, or raping." - she reaffirms that with these conditions (which I agree with her here but the point is she's making it clear what she expects aka no independence)

Yara: "That's our way of life." - you mean like Dany is about to uproot Westerosi life as we know it in 8x05 and want to continue to do?

Dany: "No more." - "We can't build the new world with men loyal to the one we have." - 8x06

Yara: "No more." - having no choice, Yara agrees because at this point the other Lannisters don't care who sits on the Salt Throne (since they still have Tommen at this point) as long as they get any ships they need so it won't matter if Theon and Yara get murdered while Euron takes over/rules the Iron Islands - Yara knows they're not getting independence which is exactly why this little nugget isn't mentioned in her speech in 8x06 before Arya tells her to shut up about killing Jon

*Yara lifts her arm to Dany, after some confusion, Dany embraces her arm and they shake on it* (aka Yara and Theon get to live another day and hopefully have some dragon power backing them and they have a new 7K Queen)

And then, 8x02:

Dany: "I thought you and I were on the verge of agreement before. About Ser Jaime."

Sansa: "Brienne has been loyal to me. Always. I trust her more than anyone."

Dany: "I wish I could have that kind of faith in my advisors."

Sansa: "Tyrion is a good man. He was never anything but decent towards me."

Dany: "I didn't ask him to be my Hand simply because he was good. I asked him to be my Hand because he was good and intelligent and ruthless when he had to be. He never should've trusted Cersei."

Sansa: "You never should've either."

Dany: "I thought he knew his sister."

Sansa: "Families are complicated." (and here come the parallels to the 6x09 conversation)

Dany: "Ours certainly have been."

Sansa: "A sad thing to have in common."

Dany: "We have other things in common. We've both known what it is to lead people who aren't inclined to accept a woman's rule. And we've both done a damn good job of it from what I can tell."

(I skipped the whole Jon part of the convo)

Sansa: "I should have thanked you, the moment you arrived. That was a mistake." *she leans forward*

Dany *leans forward and covers Sansa's hand with hers*: "I'm here because I love your brother. And I trust him. And I know he's true to his word."

(skipping more Jon stuff)

Sansa: "What happens afterwards? We defeat the dead, we destroy Cersei...what happens then?" - Sansa is mentioning the agreement being honored on both sides, both of their enemies defeated, meaning they've given her her terms at that point

Dany: "I take the Iron Throne." - there's that single-minded goal again and what she really plans (she does not intend for any kingdom to secede from her 7K)

Sansa: "What about the North? It was taken from us and we took it back and we said we'd never bow to anyone else again. What about the North?" - here Sansa asks but she also lays down the line on what hers and Jon's mindset is when it comes to the North (and it's made clear by Arya in 8x04 why Jon really bent the knee to Dany in 7x06) and while it's in reference to the Boltons, it was also Theon who took the North first, and of course Aegon back in the day forcing them to bend the knee - so more parallels and just the thing Dany doesn't want to hear

And sure enough:

*Dany doesn't answer but removes her hand* - answer enough which is cemented by Sansa's expression and her sitting back away from Dany when the Maester interrupts them

And the very next scene, they literally have Theon showing up to ask Sansa if he can fight for Winterfell in the Great War. But first:

Theon turns to face Dany as expected, sees Sansa, and then looks at Dany, bending the knee (aka no independence for you Iron Islands)

Theon: "My queen." (aka no independence for you Iron Islands)

Dany: "Your sister?" - basically her saying 'oh crap, did your sister die? I know she was taken captive but did your murderous big cock uncle kill her? Crap, where are my ships? Why am I dealing with you?'

Theon: "She only has a few ships and she couldn't sail them here. So she's sailing them to the Iron Islands instead to take them back in your name." (aka NO INDEPENDENCE FOR YOU, IRON ISLANDS)

Dany: "But why aren't you with her?" (aka my dude, why are you bothering me? Go get me my land back like your faithful sister)

And then Theon gives us the answer we're expecting when he turns to look at Sansa and then asks if he can fight for her home/family. And we know Sansa is grateful, happy, and speechless. We know Dany is shocked, dismayed, sad, and angry that she's not getting that same type of loyalty/love on this side of the Narrow Sea (8x04 convo with Jon).

So basically, anytime someone says "but Dany was going to give the Iron Islands independence, she agreed to it, Sansa was rude", etc, just point them to these two scenes. Back in 6x09 "Battle of the Bastards" (aptly named and not just for the battle or Jon vs Ramsay) where Jon's, Dany's, and Sansa's endgame are all being set up. 6x10 sets up Cersei's, Tyrion's, and even Jaime's (but that's another post).

[esther-dot]

@annachum

Scale of Dragon, Tooth of Wolf: ASOIAF and the Wars of the Roses

The hardest thing about writing this meta was literally, where to begin? I will apologize in advance, as I will try to keep my thoughts as tidy and streamlined as possible, but I have a lot to cover and do tend to run away with my words at times. This is a collaborative meta of sorts, as I drew insight, inspiration and help in constructing this massive baby from the wonderful @thewesterwoman (who also contributed parts of it, as noted within).

So, I suppose we’ll start where I begun. A few weeks ago, I stumbled onto this meta about Jamie Lannister and how he may actually be TPTWP. Now, before you shrug that off, I suggest you read this:

https://thewesterwoman.tumblr.com/post/163650220053/azor-ahai-and-the-matter-of-jaime-irony-and

And while you’re at it, make sure you give @thewesterwoman a follow because her brilliant analytical mind is a blessing to this fandom. Yes, she even ships Jonsa (but less flailing and more logic). 😉

After reading her meta,  I was definitely intrigued, so I began some research of my own, and this theory is actually a lot more popular (especially with book readers) than you may think. It prompted me to send her this ask:

https://thewesterwoman.tumblr.com/post/163779372473/so-if-you-think-that-jamie-may-be-the-one-who

Her answer only served to intrigue me more, and we struck up a private convo discussing all the War of the Roses similarities, and how GoT might actually come to its bittersweet end -and so this meta was born. It will be part tinfoil/part actual history. Let’s begin.

What’s in a Name?

So with that said, let us first focus on the last three major houses left in GoT: the Lannisters, the Starks and the Targaryens -and the three* major players of the War of the Roses: the Lancasters, the Yorks and the Tudors. Marinate on that a minute. Okay? Good. Here’s what you should have came up with:

Lancasters/Lannisters

Yorks/Starks

Tudor (Plantagenet)/Targaryen *

*History shows us that the War of the Roses actual main players were the Lancasters and Yorks, but for all of you who are not historian buffs (me), they both descended from the same royal house: Plantagenet and ended with Tudor. Think of them as Alpha and Omega.* Oh, and wouldn’t you know -what an incestuous web they wove, but that’s a meta for another day. 😂

As per Wikipedia (and because I’m lazy):

The House of Plantagenet (/plænˈtædʒᵻnᵻt/) was a royal house which originated from the lands of Anjou in France. The name Plantagenet is used by modern historians to identify four distinct royal houses – the Angevins who were also Counts of Anjou, the main body of the Plantagenets following the loss of Anjou, and the houses of Lancaster and York, the Plantagenets’ two cadet branches. The family held the English throne from 1154, with the accession of Henry II, until 1485, when Richard III died.

One other thought ( @thewesterwoman adds )- as many have noted, Westeros is obviously a continent-sized, fantasy-version of Britain (with the North more or less standing in for Scotland). Westerosi history is similarly based on British history, which saw several waves of migration from foreign invaders that greatly resembles the Westerosi invasions by the First Men, the Andals, and finally the Targaryens.

The Targaryens in particular seem to represent the Norman invasion of England, which was led by William the Conqueror, who I take for a direct analogue to Westeros’s own Aegon the Conqueror (a foreign invader who united several warring kingdoms into one country under his reign). This is relevant to our theory because the royal English House of Plantagenet (and thus the House of Tudor as well) is more or less directly descended from the dynasty founded by William the Conqueror, just as the Targaryens are from Aegon the Conqueror.

Amidst the War a King is Born

As you all know, the War of Roses was put to an end by Henry Tudor, or King Henry VII -also known as the first King of the Tudor line. I’m not going to dive fully into his entire biography -just the parts/similarities that fit in the GoT narrative.

The War of the Roses broke out prior to his birth on May 22, 1455 and Henry was born on January 28, 1457 -the son of Lady Margaret Beaufort, and Edmund Tudor, first Earl of Richmond (half brother to King Henry VI). Edmund, a Lancastrian, was taken prisoner by Yorkist forces mere months after his marriage to Margaret, and died in captivity less than a year later, leaving behind a 13-year-old widow who was seven months pregnant with their child -whom she birthed at the tender age of 14.

This sounds vaguely familiar -like a lovable bastard prince we know, who’s mother birthed him at a tender age, his father dying in a “rebellion” of sorts -War of the Roses/Roberts Rebellion. But wait -the similarities don’t end there. While Margaret didn’t die like Lyanna -Henry would be her only child. The birth was described as “particularly difficult; at one point, both the Countess and her child were close to death, due to her young age and small size”. She never gave birth again. After his father’s death, Margaret and Henry were taken in by Edmunds brother Jasper (Henry’s uncle), the Duke of Pembroke.

Now here’s where it gets tricky … because I’m about to split Henry’s upbringing into two parts, or rather -two characters: Jon Snow and Danaerys Targaryen.

Jon Snow:

When Edward IV became the first Yorkist King in 1461, Jasper fled abroad and Castle Pembroke, along with the Earldom were given over to the Yorkist, William Herbert -who then took over guardianship of the 4 year old Henry and his mother. Henry lived in the Herbert household until 1469 (he was 12) when more York/Lancaster drama ensued and Henry VI reclaimed his throne.

Daenerys Targaryen:

At some point, fearing her son’s safety, Margaret sent Henry into exile with his uncle Jasper -where he remained, garnering French and Welsh support before returning to lay a claim to the throne. When Henry Tudor invaded England, his army consisted of French mercenaries and Welsh warriors – which would be considered a largely foreign group (foreign invaders -Dothraki and the Unsullied).

So, you see how in comparison to Henry’s early life, we could easily divide aspects of it between both Jon and Dany. Being raised by an uncle, being exiled for safety, garnering foreign support and returning to claim their “birthright”.  It’s also important to note that with his father dying prior to his birth, Henry fought claims of illegitimacy (bastard) for most of his life.

A Dragon and a Prophecy

Henry also made some political capital out of his Welsh ancestry, attracting military support and safeguarding his army’s passage through Wales on his way to the Battle of Bosworth. He came from an old, established Anglesey family that claimed descent from Cadwaladr (a Welsh King depicted in legend, the last ancient British king), and on occasion Henry displayed that Welsh standard.

That Welsh standard Henry fought and conquered under? Well I’m glad you asked … The flag of Wales (Welsh: Baner Cymru or Y Ddraig Goch, meaning the red dragon) .

A red dragon! You don’t say? Where have we seen that before? Oh, right …the Targaryen house sigil.

But Henry’s welsh dragon isn’t just ANY dragon, but -a dragon that’s attached to a prophecy: Y Mab Darogan.

From Wikipedia (again because I’m lazy):

Y Mab Darogan (pronounced [ə mɑːb darɔˈɡan] meaning “The Destined/Prophesised Son” or “Son of Destiny”) is a messianic figure of Welsh legend, destined to force the English out of Britain and reclaim it for its Celtic inhabitants. A number of figures have been called Y Mab Darogan in history (other titles include Y Gŵr Darogan and Y Daroganwr). An extensive corpus of medieval Welsh prophetic verse, beginning with Armes Prydain (10th century?), is centred on the figure of Y Mab Darogan.

A prince who was promised? Ya don’t say?!?!

Several historical figures have thought to have been this “Son of Destiny” -even King Arthur of Camelot. With poets and supporters labeling Henry the prophesied prince, it certainly didn’t hurt in strengthening his claim to the throne. Later, his reign over England was believed to be the prophecy fulfilled -a belief that he encouraged by naming his firstborn son Arthur.

Two Roses become One

As most of you know, Henry later wed Elizabeth of York. They were third cousins -both great-great grandchildren of John of Gaunt. The marriage unified the two warring houses and gave any of their future children strong claims to the throne. The unification of the houses of York and Lancaster by this marriage is symbolised by the Tudor Rose -a combination of the white rose of York and the red rose of Lancaster.

*Remember this, because we’ll come back to this later when I make my endgame predictions.

I would also like to present to you, the Tudor house Coat of Arms (under Henry VII and the first half of his son, Henry VIII’s reign):

A red dragon, a white dog (wolf) and a golden lion sitting atop the crest, amid the Tudor roses.

As Alice (in Wonderland) would say: Curiouser and curiouser ….  

The White Rose (of Winterfell?)

A red-headed beauty -Elizabeth of York was described as fair of hair and face. The eldest child, she had two younger brothers (known as the Princes in the Tower) who disappeared shortly after her father’s death -thought to be murdered by her uncle.

From Wikipedia (and you guessed it, because I’m lazy):

“The Princes in the Tower” is an expression frequently used to refer to Edward V, King of England and Richard of Shrewsbury, Duke of York. The two brothers were the only sons of Edward IV of England and Elizabeth Woodville surviving at the time of their father’s death in 1483. When they were 12 and 9 years old, respectively, they were lodged in the Tower of London by the man appointed to look after them, their uncle, the Lord Protector: Richard, Duke of Gloucester. This was supposedly in preparation for Edward’s forthcoming coronation as king. However, Richard took the throne for himself and the boys disappeared.

Compare this if you’d like, to Sansa’s brothers  Bran and Rickon “disappearing” -first thought to be murdered by Theon, then Rickon actually being murdered, and Bran essentially dying as well, now that he’s the 3 eyed Raven. This may be a bit tin foilish, but Bran was also pushed from a Tower -which sent the whole chain of events in motion.

Despite being a political arrangement at first, the marriage between Henry and Elizabeth proved successful and both partners appear to have grown to love each other. Jon and Sansa have already proven to share a powerful loving bond rooted in trust.

But wait!

Aren’t the Starks (Yorks) supposed to be the good guys, and the Lannisters (Lancasters) the bad? I’m glad you asked, and I’ll hand you over to @thewesterwoman for that …

When it comes to the Wars of the Roses, one side - the Lancasters - has traditionally been presented in a far more positive light than the other - the Yorks. This is because the Tudor dynasty which ultimately emerged the victor of the war was descended in the male line from the Lancasters, making them the ‘winning’ side. As such, the vast majority of primary sources from after the war paint the Lancasters in a flattering light and the Yorks in a negative one, in an effort on the part of their writers to gain favor with the current reigning monarchs of England.

Today, this is especially noticeable in Shakespeare’s ‘history plays,’ several of which - Henry IV Part One, Henry IV Part Two, Henry IV Part Three, and Richard III - deal directly with the historical events of the Wars of the Roses. Shakespeare was writing during the reign of Elizabeth Tudor, and had an obvious motive for depicting her forebears as the heroes of the story that ultimately led to her rule. This is especially notable in Richard III, where the evil schemes of Richard of York lead England into chaos until the heroic Henry Tudor (a Lancastrian, and Elizabeth’s direct ancestor) finally emerges to defeat him and save the realm.

GRRM seems to have taken his fictional noble houses Stark and Lannister from the real-world Yorks and Lancasters, and they retain vestiges of the stereotypes of their historical counterparts. House Stark is strongly associated with tradtionally ‘evil’ motifs: ice, winter, death, and wolves (connoting the Big Bad Wolf of many fairytales). House Lannister, in contrast, has many ‘heroic’ connotations: warmth, sunlight, gold, and lions (which incidentally are on the royal coat of arms of England). From a distance, the Lannisters - with their wealth, beauty, and natural charisma - would seem like a natural fit for the protagonists of any story, while the Starks - known for their grim and gloomy dispositions and ominous House words - would seem like more natural antagonists.

But this is of course not the case. GRRM has both reversed the traditional historical narrative of the good Lancasters versus the evil Yorks, and the traditional motifs that we associate with good versus bad characters. In ASOIAF, the Starks are the heroes and the Lannisters are the villains, despite their respective surface appearances. This is both very interesting and very typical of GRRM, who loves to invert our expectations of fantasy narratives.

And now it’s time to put your tin foil hats on, because it’s endgame prediction time ….

So what does this all mean?

So if Jon and Dany are actually the two facets of Henry’s life prior to the crown -the exiled conqueror (Dany) and the “bastard” prince (Jon) raised by a Yorkist (Stark) -also his uncle, where does that leave Dany? Well, I’m pretty sure Dany will meet her death on the other side of the wall.  

Let us return to Dany’s time spent in the House of the Undying -to simplify, we’ll use the show version. We’ll come back to her time in the throne room later, but first -remember when she stepped through what looked curiously like the gates to the other side of the wall -into the wintery beyond?

Here, she was reunited with her true love and husband, Khal Drogo and their son, Rhaego.

Here, she was reunited with her true love and husband, Khal Drogo and their son, Rhaego.

Perhaps this was a foreshadowing of sorts, that she will die in battle beyond the wall during the Long Night, and in death, be reunited with her son and husband -who wait for her in some form of purgatory, so they can all ride together into the Night Lands?

Drawing from the Henry Dany/Jon parallels, and if you’d like to get real tinfoil-y, we could look at Targcest as a way of melding these two halves of Henry into one. Maybe Dany perishes before the showdown with Cersei -leaving that war for Jon to be the parallel to Henry’s Battle of Bosworth -the battle that won him the crown by conquest -as to which he strengthened by then marrying Elizabeth of York.

*I’d like to make that very clear. He didn’t use his new wife to seal the deal, he used conquest (in defeating his rival) -he strengthened his throne (and future line of succession) in marrying EoY.

Returning back to Dany’s visions in The House of the Undying, she enters the throne room and it looks destroyed -although the throne still remains intact. Some people think it was ash falling through the broken ceiling -others snow. I’m going with the latter. Here’s why:

Dany approaches the throne, but does not touch it -instead she walks out the door which led her to the other side of the wall (to her family). She’s come to Westeros, but she will never be the queen. Instead, Jon will be the reluctant King -again thrust into a position of leadership that he doesn’t necessarily want, but will accept for the good of all. He will not be a King who conquered, but instead a King that was chosen.

Since Jon is both a Stark and a Targaryen, but his Targaryen lineage is what gives him a right to the Iron Throne -ironically, a Targaryen will once again rule Westeros. With Dany’s death, so dies the old House Targaryen that she represents, with Jon being the start of a new (and as @thewesterwoman points out -less incestuous) dynasty. This would again mirror the fate of House Plantagenet.

But will he rule as a Targaryen? Or a Stark? Maybe neither?

Perhaps he will rule as a Snow -which considering the connotations, and how being a bastard plagued him his entire life, it would certainly be rather poetic. The Snow falling in the throne room could be a foreshadowing of this. The Targaryen structure is destroyed, but the throne that Targaryen and Lannisters have sat on, is intact.

And remember this? The blending of the Lancaster and York roses into the Tudor rose?

This also leads me to believe that Jon might start a new house entirely, and create his own house sigil -combining the Targaryen and Starks somehow, but allowing BOTH original houses to die off -much like both the Lancasters and Yorks, with no male heirs left to carry on the names. In the books, snow is a big theme in a lot of Sansa’s arc -especially the time she spends as Alayne in the Vale. Many have already drawn these parallels to Jon.

There Must Always be a Stark in Winterfell

(Inspired by the ask I sent thewesterwoman)

Bran has made it pretty clear that he is NOT the Lord of Winterfell. Bran technically isn’t even Bran anymore. *Think of Elizabeth of Yorks two brothers (the princes in the tower). If Arya marries, she will take her husband’s name -same with Sansa. So, if Jon doesn’t take the Stark name, the Stark name perishes, too.

Consider if you will, that Winterfell falls in the Long Night. It was built by Brandon Stark (aka: Bran the builder), one of the “First Men”, as well as the founder of House Stark. He also is said to have built the Wall -“raised it with the aid of Giants”, according to legend. Ironically, the Night King is known to be one of the First Men, too. Supposedly, Bran Stark is in the Winterfell crypts, although some have speculated that he’s actually the NK.

What if there’s something “magical” behind Winterfell and it’s crypts? When Bran asked undead Benjen to come with them to the other side of the wall, he said he couldn’t, as there was magic carved into the foundation of the Wall, and as long as it stood, he could not pass. Maybe there’s something magical connected to Winterfell and the phrase “there must always be a Stark in Winterfell” and, that it’s all somehow connected to the Night King.

If the Night King is defeated once and for all, and Winterfell falls, there’s no longer a “need” for a Stark to be there -giving credence to the theory of Jon starting a new house entirely.

With the Starks being the “good guys” and the story mostly framed around them, Jon and Sansa as Ned/Cat 2.0 yet, the end of House Stark sounds pretty bittersweet to me.

Of course, this is all just speculation …

War of the Roses was only one of many things that GRRM drew inspiration from.

*credit to @sardoniyx for this AMAZING manip work!*

[chaichai-draws]

Personally I think that Telemachus permanently and irreversibly changed Athena for the better, more on that at twelve

[hickeygender]

tragedy enjoyers when a character perpetuates the cycle of violence they themselves were a victim of

[viperofsand]

#this relationship is so well done#alicent tries but she doesn't get it - she doesn't even have the capability to get it at first - she's too young#and the cycle keeps cycling (via nobodysuspectsthebutterfly)

ALICENT HIGHTOWER and HELAENA TARGARYEN HOUSE OF THE DRAGON: Season One (2022)

[raynewolferune]

DC x DP Prompt: Bruce is bad at emoting but at least ghosts are empathic (too bad bat kids are not)

Was reading Twincognito on AO3 when I stumbled across this gem again:

~

" “Danny, Tim. I was just…checking in. Is everything alright?” Curse his inability to make meaningful conversation when it wasn’t a life or death situation.

They glanced at each other and shrugged.

Then Danny hauled himself out of the bed and walked over to Bruce.

Bruce tried not to let too much excitement show on his face. "

~

Now I really want to read a story where Bruce adopts Danny post Meta trafficking and is being his usual emotionally constipated self. His kids keep getting mad at him because he's treating their new meta brother who was trafficked poorly (generally being stilted in conversation with him, walking away hurriedly mid-conversation, avoiding Danny when he's feeling really awkward, etc). They think Bruce is discriminating against Danny for being a civilian, meta, dealer's pick, but really it's just Bruce being horribly socially awkward. Danny knows this because of ghost empathy and find the whole thing hilarious. The whole thing comes to a head with the Bat Kids staging an intervention in the Bat Cave.