#incel discourse

[fumifooms]

Ok maybe kinda of a weird question you don't have to answer if you don't want to but I've seen some people saying that Chilchuck is canonically misogynistic so, as the Chilchuck especialist, do you have an opinion about that?

Anon you are brave and I love you. Listen if you, person reading this, get peeved or upset when people say Chilchuck might have had not insignificant flaws as a father and husband then probably stop reading here, we will be looking at Chilchuck like a petri dish and defile his pristine allure. Tldr: yes but actually no but really both at the same time aka people & social dynamics are complex and please let your blorbos be flawed. With that said I will be pretty casual and playful if that wasn’t clear already, sorry.

"Aren’t you happy to be in a harem party" "No it’s soul-crushing save me". Toshiro has been drinking his fear women juice since he was young, surrounded by an assassin nanny and her fellow assassin girlies, meanwhile Chilchuck having flashbacks of getting wrung out by his 4 women household…

Waiting on people is something we see he hates doing a couple times throughout canon and extras, here and how he says "it’s not a date" -bless his summer child heart- he frames being slow to get ready as a gendered trait to have? But I can forgive him for this one because honestly the framing of the whole page leans into that, it’s kinda questionable if we’re being highly critical of anything misogynistic or regressive. But it itself is the classic subversive "Women are desirable wallflowers— Wrong! They are a monstrous ruthless force that wears on the mind, body and soul" trope. I don’t fault Kui though, I got giggles from it, it makes sense for everyone’s characters, and Kui has never shied from gendered dynamics in her worldbuilding & characters so it’s not like she’ll write as if sex changes nothing and no one has opinions about it.

Alright alright let’s step back from analyzing this page specifically and get back to the question, is Chilchuck canonically misogynistic? It’s a complex question not because we don’t have hints but because it’s a very black and white answer to give and because misogynistic can be very wide or pretty narrow depending on how the term is applied.

What I would say? Yes, he is, in a realistic way that doesn’t automatically make him a piece of shit, though that doesn’t mean it isn’t uncomfortable or harmful. On the spectrum of misogyny he classifies to me as "It’s in the normalized lighthearted way of being a horny uncle who’s a little too loose about it around the dinner table", he’s a solid "He wants to treat women as pieces of meat and jokes about it but in actuality he’s a gentleman and a family careerman who has a job so he don’t really care about that rn".

Going back to Toshiro’s party, Chilchuck being weird about it being full of women doesn’t even happen only once but TWICE. I made a compilation of every time he’s crass, happens less than you might expect but the overall picture it gives throughout reading the manga is pretty straightforward. Repeatedly he’s shown to be dirty-minded and shown to objectify & sexualize women both lightheartedly and unprompted. They’re a punchline and they’re eye candy and it’s "of COURSE my succubus would be young women, of COURSE women would desire a muscled statue’s [redacted], of COURSE women are sexual beings and of course I am attracted to them".

Dungeon Meshi doesn’t bring up sexuality much and gendered dynamics tend to be more subtle than you’d expect from media in general, so there’s that, but I honestly struggle to think of any character that acts less normal about women existing than him. Like yeah he’s joking but Hien, Benichidori, Inutade and Maizuru were just breathing and doing their jobs. Who else’s misogynistic uhh, that guy working for the shadow governor that licks Cithis’ ear when she’s bound in ropes? The sheer jump from ‘makes demeaning jokes about women’ to ‘assaulter’ between these two, god.

Honestly it does feel odd to me that he’d be kinda demeaning like that about women even in a workplace setting —Chilchuck the union man out of everyone?— but Kui has spoken man idk, think what you will don’t shoot the messenger. It’s not like he’s weird about Namari? I guess he respects her too much- Wait that sounded wrong. Maybe it’s literally just because she and the other women party members are his direct coworkers, in line with his rule and all? But yeah, even if he canonically had a thing for blondes and pretty young women he has managed to only tease Marcille ceaselessly for fun & entertainment and make her hair extra shiny as his shapeshifter, you get a good behavior star there Chilchuck. He complains on waiting for Marcille to get ready in the barometz chapter and the first anime ED but he also does with Laios when he’s late to meet up the party in extras. He constantly pulls on Marcille to get her to safety as if she can’t protect herself but she’s referred to as clumsy a lot so he has that justified reasoning. He constantly berates everyone so no point to make there. He undermines Marcille’s opinions often but it’s because he dislikes mages and elves and idealism. Clearly Chilchuck knows women can be capable and clearly he can have women coworkers (and friends! Again, Namari) without belittling or sexualizing them, clearly he can be normal about women and knows that some of his attitude can be inappropriate. It’s just harmless fun to him, that he keeps for occasional playful banter and taverns and the ‘right’ moods.

And as I mentioned earlier! Chilchuck is also pretty gentlemanly and protective. As always desires vs wants and instinct vs rationality show up as themes. Yes his succubus aka his ideal, the deepest allure he can imagine, is beautiful naked women, but a chapter just before that was the bicorn, all about how faithful and virtuous he is, how his heart’s in the right place. His brain is virtuous but his heart is monkey. My point is that when it counts, aka 90% of the time and when things are serious, we don’t see signs of sexist bias and he treats women well. Often takes on a protector role or at the least takes them seriously, even Benichidori. He doesn’t want to hurt women or thinks they’re insignificant or anything. He’ll give a handkerchief to a woman in need with a slimy face.

Okay okay this is really entering speculation territory but in my own tally, the way he dismissed his wife’s ‘bad mood’ as some meaningless tantrum that he shouldn’t think any more deeply about, him starting out not reaching out to her as a resentful silent treatment, and her getting dissatisfied in the first place enough to leave makes me think he took her for granted and was kinda dismissive of her in general. Marcille’s theorical scenario is hypothetical and factually untrue at least in parts, but if we do follow it, him forgetting he’s out with his wife for once (in the precious counted time he’s home spending time with her) and not paying attention to her all outing, resulting in her being left out of conversations and just an ornament beside him the way she might have felt for a long time as his housewife waiting home for him to come back………

Editing this paragraph in: Okay I don’t know how I missed mentioning this but, when he’s asked why his wife left him, Chilchuck literally point blank thinks that being thought to have cheated on his wife is LESS SHAMEFUL than not knowing the reason why (due to poor communication skills or whatnot). It’s so ridiculous that it can be hard to see beyond it as a gag or twist, but make of this what you will but this is not a great look for his priorities and his view of women especially in regards to toxic masculinity, good lord. When I talk about him having a sense of being entitled to his wife and dismissive of her emotions that’s sort of what I mean. He thinks it’s better for people to think he mistreated his wife and did something terrible than just failed at keeping her affection for reasons he doesn’t grasp. His pride, both in giving her the silent treatment and doing damage control when talking about it to others like Marcille and coworkers, takes priority over their relationship and love.

Half-foots seem to be patriarchal. The last section of this essay’s chapter (not by me!) + combing through its half-foot chapter should give you insight on that if you want. It’s in their patronymic, it’s in the way marriage seems very important especially for women, and it’s in the implied gender roles, being a housewife whose life revolves around raising her husband’s kids and taling care of the family home waiting for her husband who’s out working to come back. I think Chilchuck is a bit a result of his environment and upbringing in that way, that most of the misogyny is internalized and subconscious and passive, it’s taking his wife for granted because not only does she trust her, his most precious person he’s known since he was a kid, but because she’s his wife, his woman, conceptually something that’s unwaveringly devoted, something that is very valued and enforced in half-foot communities. Here’s a short post on half-foot family bonds culturally + here’s a post on marriage and half-foots for more. The community aspect of half-foots is very strong, which makes sense especially for how empoverished and discriminated against they are, which does come at the expense of not unlike dwarves (dwarves which half-foots idolize) having more pressure to fit in and have a good reputation to not be cast out and have no support lines. By being scared and needing stability people will often be more conservative, etc etc, though the reverse is also often true, like Chilchuck with his union. But yes Chilchuck seems to have many biases he clings onto, harsh on especially Marcille and Laios, Marcille for her idealism, race and magic meanwhile Laios for his lack of social skills and ‘reckless’ behavior.

He also does the classic "Don’t you dare date my daughter!!", though it’s a bit up in the air because he only gets agitated about coworkers being suitors, not nearly as hostile to the idea when it’s some nameless dwarf. But y’know when a guy assumes every men is as horny and sleazy as they are so they’re like "never trust men"… Chilchuck does embody a lot the tropes of just, the everyday flawed middle aged man. The absentee father and careerman husband who does care despite it all. Disillusioned grumpy old man. Old divorced drunkard joe with a thing for cute young blonde women, as a friend put it.

We know Kui subverses tropes a lot, I definitely think Kui leans into these if nothing else for the bit. He’s tropes of the strict family Father, man doing inappropriate jokes around a beer with his drinking buddies, working man exhausted and frustrated by his job, midlife crisis. Also because of how he acts with Marcille, I always say he’s the boy on the playground pulling on the pigtails of his girl friend bc he thinks it’s funny. Because he thinks she’s pretty.

So point blank, Chilchuck respects women as individuals but he can get a little lost in the sauce when thinking about women in general and jumps to sexualizing them in ways that can be objectifying and dismissive. Casual lowkey misogyny for the bit that may or may not slip into non-jokes as well sometimes when it comes to seeing women as something inherently to defend or take for granted, though he’s well-meaning. He engages in gender roles of "men should be strong and burly" and "daughters should listen to their fathers’ opinion before dating a guy". A guy engaging in patriarchy without thinking much of it y’know, more or less passive and unaware. He’s good in economic and human rights issues but would not win the political correctness medal (though he does care about optics and is very conscious of appearing as upstanding and innocent with the elves or Toshiro’s and Kabru’s parties to avoid getting thrown in jail. Overcompensating for half-foot criminal reputations etc etc. Post on that here).

Do I believe Chilchuck would march for women’s rights? Yes. Do I believe he would make ‘ye old ball and chain’ and ‘my wife’ and ‘ah women’ jokes? Yes. Do I believe he would punch anyone making one such jokes about his wife or daughters? Yes.

I was pretty flippant bc honestly Chilchuck the Sleazy Horny Old Man is hilarious to me but yes hopefully the post was decent. "How could I be sexist? I love bitches"

[spop-romanticizes-abuse]

really? because let me remind you that catra never treated adora as a peer or a partner. she constantly belittled adora, she was jealous of adora, she was insanely possessive of adora. how can you expect someone to treat you a certain way if you don't treat them the same way?

if i said “i wish people were kind to me” while treating everyone around me like shit, i would be a hypocrite. and that's what catra is too. not that this is explicitly mentioned in canon, but catra expects a lot out of adora while continuously hurting adora.

she expects adora to keep their promise, but catra herself never bothered to keep it. in fact, the only time she even mentions wanting to keep her side of the promise is IN THE FINALE. towards the very end, where adora was basically dying!! and that's after catra abandoned adora because adora didn't give her the assurance that she expected.

not to mention, catra is the one who kept feeding into adora's hero complex and her guilt, by calling adora a failure and constantly keeping her responsible for not being able to protect the people she loved.

so yeah. another post victim-blaming adora for what happened and acting like catra's actions were justified.

[jkftkth]

big fuck them all, moving like he’s their enemy. fandom is one collective brainwashed experiment.

[pinkypastal]

Hsr fans try not to call every female character that ever gets screen time waifu bait challenge

[michiruze]

[Edited 240703]

Many people have said that the best way to avoid dudebros and incels in fandom is to not interact once they make bigoted jokes, but however, there is an easier, surefire way to detect dudebros and incels, especially anime and manga, without having to interact with them:

Never trust people who are disgusted by Shoujo.

Never trust anyone who expresses disgust towards media catered to women (and marginalized genders), be it Shoujo, Otome games, and more.

It is a misogyny litmus test, but hating Shoujo can reveal a lot about a person, it is most likely a sign of homophobia, queerphobia, transphobia, and bigotry.

Let me explain,

Recently, bigoted dudebros and incels from all over the world has been more millitant on their bigotry online due to.....more media being catered for women. Hiding behind their hentai and fanservice girl profile pictures, they were upset as hell, spitting out angry 'thinkpieces' on 'the double standards feminists has on media with fanservice' --- solely for the fact that there are media where male characters are treated like female characters in media that dudebros enjoy.

You might be asking, "How does hating hetero romance manga mean that someone might be misogynistic, queerphobic, and transphobic? They hate hetero romance, it's nothing weird. A lot of people just can't stand heterosexual stories."

Simple. The answer is that they simply hate women. It's not 'heterophobia', it's misogyny. They hate stuff made for women.

Here's a bitter truth about men who hates Shoujo:

The way dudebros describe male characters in Shoujo and Joseimuke media also veers to homophobia and transphobia, calling them 'gay' or misgendering them, all because of these characters not adhering to their standards of masculinity.

They also carry these views to women (and marginalized genders) who enjoy them with slut-shaming to boot, solely for the fact that they see and treat male characters the same way that dudebros see and treat female characters.

When dudebros sees women and marginalized genders getting attracted to male characters, they see it as a threat, as a reflection on how they would treat real men (ignoring that there are sapphic, ace, and aro shoujo enjoyers!), as if they weren't already treating real women like shit the same way they do it to female characters.

When dudebros hate on 'hetero romance Shoujo', they do not like the fact that what women consider to be 'ideal relationship' is different than their ideal relationship (Dudebros always ignore the fact that Shoujo readers aren't necessarily wanting real relationships to be 'just like in Shoujo', and again, will always ignore the existence of queer Shoujo readers. They assume all Shoujo readers are 'straight women').

They do not like how women are attracted to men who aren't them, they do not like how women who are attracted to men are 'seeking these <insert homophobic slur here> men' who they do not see as 'ideal men'.

"But I don't like Shoujo! I just don't like it, not in the misogynistic way incels do!"

This isn't a call for anyone to 'go like Shoujo now' --- disliking Shoujo is fair, it is not a bad thing to dislike it. You don't have to like it, Shoujo is not for everyone after all. Romance and shipping is not for everyone after all (even though there are Shoujo media with no romance).

Just stay in your lane and stay away from Shoujo-positive spaces, don't be assholes to people who like Shoujo.

But feeling disgust over media made for women (and queer people) and being assholes towards people who enjoy it is not a good behaviour.

At this point and climate, Shoujo hate often means "Women are not allowed to have things made for them, because it will turn them into delusional sluts who will threaten real masculinity. Women will be so poisoned by Shoujo that they will become man-hating sexuality-collecting gender-queers who will not bend to real men."

And it happens all too often. It is no longer cringe culture, but outright hate.

That is why Shoujo hate is gateway to bigotry.

[i-am-trans-gwender]

I'm confused so can someone explain this to me. Based on my gatherings I have found

Incel is always a bad thing

On the other hand femcel/girlcel somehow went from an insult to a compliment and girls will call themselves it.

Did I miss something? What's happening? Please explain.

[azuremist]

Whyyyyy are we making it normaaaal to be transphobic to transmaaaascs

[demonic-shadowlucifer]

im already tired of the 'man vs bear' debate. it went from actually meaningful discussion about sexual assault and how men need to do better to just purposefully ragebaiting incels and nothing of actual value. and that's not even getting into the fact that the discourse only focuses on survivors who are cis women, and less focus on trans survivors, enby survivors (and even male survivors for that matter). hell, transphobes have already started to invade the conversation. we need less rhetorical questions about abuse, and more actual uplifting of survivors and actual education about abuse (for all genders for that matter!)

the man vs bear topic has done nothing to help survivors, and i will die on this hill.

[ambelle]

Still laughing at ppl trying to age shame you in the Titans fandom because you told them stop trash talking Anna/Kory's looks as fans of her.

It was genuinely funny.

1.The show was rated M and on HBO...not the Disney Chanel

2. I was also the same age as the 2 leads so like...they wanted to see elderly people fucking? Is that it? Weird flex.

3. Yes the vocal minority were college students chronically online and using fictional black women as self-inserts for their swirl fetishes but they never really mattered outside of their echo chamber. No one cared what they thought about anything.

You will still never catch me mocking a BW's looks after she was a victim of online harassment. And for my tumblr haters you'll also never catch me deciding a BW character has no worth if she's not fucking a WM.

I hope these ppl finally got dicked down by a white man though.

Love, Grandma

[deathbirby]

Me: Hmm, it's 3H's 5 year anniversary. I know some will say 3H's legacy is the discourse, but surely people will be celebrating the game and making some awesome excellent fanart and tributes and not "debating" online and sealioning about who's right in a "morally grey" game right? Sees that some twitter/x dipshit stir up discourse about Rhea being the "true" villain and how Edelgard is totally right (source: trust me bro) and people arguing against that turning into an ugly political back and forth. Me: Welp, happy 5 year anniversary 3H. Okay more seriously, there have been some great fanart and tributes from the VA along with people celebrating. But good god, Edelstans just couldn't help themselves from trying to make this another "Here's why my fave is right version infinity and why anyone who disagrees with me is a right wing fascist p*dophile" wankathon. Schrodinger's illusion of choice is real.

It's really sad how that's just 3H's legacy now. Endless discourse. Bring up Edelgard? Discourse. Bring up Dimitri? Discourse. Bring up Claude? Discourse. Bring up Rhea? Discourse.

Why can't people just enjoy the game and its characters instead of making everything a political debate or a cop tier list??

[celeborn-of-doriath]

// Wow. I hate the incels. They need to get their hands off Celeborn. He's not theirs. They can't have him. He would hate them.

I did not survive 20 years in this fandom living purely off of like the meagre 15 screenshots I have to make icons with, just for these weird little guys to come and try to twist my precious boy, my son, my favorite elf, top wifeguy, into their weird incel fantasy.

This is my hill and I will absolutely die on it

[letoscrawls]

If you hated Yord and Jecki you will die and go to hell

[jkftkth]

fandom and the likes sooo unserious speaking on behalf of who tae can and can’t keep in touch w like they know his business and i thought the reaction to jk’s posts were insane 🥴

[swagging-back-to]

tumblr is no different than any other misogynistic propaganda driven social media platform. it really isnt.

btw the exact same thing happens with anti kink tags vs violent fetishism tags that are Still allowed up.

wanna explain why this is? @staff

[chattegeorgiana]

I'm sorry but why do u narusaku's like to shit on Sakura choosing Sasuke over Naruto's ass? It's as if you're like those haters who make fun of her for choosing the guy who almost killed her. And it makes you seem like you hate her.

This is such a layered response and I don't feel like getting into it tbh. I've done it over the years and I'm tired of it honestly.

But read this part you wrote yourself & think why some people have an issue with Sakura choosing Sasuke (NaruSaku or not, cuz some of us would actually preferred her to be single if anything):

It's as if you're like those haters who make fun of her for choosing the guy who almost killed her. It's as if you're like those haters who make fun of her for choosing the guy who almost killed her. It's as if you're like those haters who make fun of her for choosing the guy who almost killed her.

People are allowed to dislike something. You are allowed to like something else.

What do you care about what others say? Do their preferences dictate yours? If that's so, oooh boy, I got some news for ya...

[whereserpentswalk]

Its amazing how many times the internet has created incels from first principles. Like that exact ideology has popped up independently in so many disparate parts of the online world. But I guess that's just what happens when people conclude that it's an injustice that they're single.