#discourse are you getting an A in the echo chamber?

[ablednt]

A little girl just fucking died and half you fuckers are still acting like this is some political discourse and going on about hamas fuck you I've actually had enough

[greensaplinggrace]

You obviously know this is about D*rkling or have you misused tags in other fandoms as well? And I am still better than people condoning child trafficking.

i dont believe in cross-tagging, my friend. unfortunately for you i'm the one that made the darkling slander tag on tumblr. if you want a different experience then can i perhaps recommend tiktok? it's a pretty decent hangout for those with no critical thinking skills and the need to argue with thin air. besides, the tumblr slander tag actually has real slander instead of the shallow and incorrect bs i see antis spew. as if it's my fault i'm better at your jobs than you.

also maybe self-evaluate in regard to the last sentence of your ask. best of luck in therapy!

[hero-dualies-3]

i am having the worlds most specific problem

[i-c-u-p]

going to start using this platform like twitter again and by that i mean posting relentlessly and going on rants in the tags

[trans-leek-cookie]

sittimg at the Wikipedia article. Comptemplating

[heavenaintaniceplace]

ive already expressed how bunk the culturally christian discourse is but something else occurred to me and its that the discourse not only alienates exchristians (on purpose) but also alienates poc, largely i think also on purpose. because ive seen so many false equivalence posts insinuating that backlash against culturally christian is the same as resistance to the idea of ‘white privilege’ or that being ‘culturally christian’ is the same as being white in a racist society. and so many people keeping this discourse going are white and trying to call out other white people for having another level of what theyve interpreted as unilateral all encompassing privilege, going back and forth on how privileged the cultural christians (exchristians, people raised atheist, people who have converted to other religions, jewish folks and muslims too now if they breathed the wrong too christian air or lived in the wrong country) are and equating it to being inherently racist. and you can see how this analogy doesn’t work for people of color and literally anyone marginalized in any other way. even if you think ‘culturally christian’ works as a term (it doesn’t but go off, mostly because yall stripped it of anything meaningful from conception) how can you say its equivalent to white privilege even for poc without being racist? for all this “you need to unlearn christian biases!” none of you are unlearning your racist biases.

being ‘culturally christian’ is not a person of color’s version of white privilege you myopic racist fucks. the white ‘culturally christian’ enjoyers are either trying to dodge some sort of guilt or accountability but it shows how they use intersectionality is broken and oversimplified otherwise we wouldn’t be having this discussion in the first place. its no surprise a concept made by a black woman (intersectionality) is misused by white folks. and no, i don’t care if youre white and nonchristian saying this, if you can make those kind of claims with no nuance then i get to do the same. a lot of the popular bloggers who say this are white and reblog from people known to harass poc anways...

and now for the personal anecdote as a black person: black churches didn’t get firebombed, be segregated and get defunded so they couldn’t organize against white supremacy for you to say ‘culturally christian’ is the same as being white and racist for everyone. they didn’t edit the bibles they gave enslaved people for no reason, they didn’t burn crosses in people’s yards and march streets with them in white hoods, or claim black people didn’t have souls or that integration was ‘unchristian’ or say that “only jesus could fix racism!” for you to get your white ass on tumblr and say this shit. i hope you feel genuinely uncomfortable and unsettled reading that.

[queeranarchism]

One of the most important things that I learned from Susan Stryker is that the basic tendencies of nationalism can pop up anywhere.

Those tendencies being: 'This territory/group is better than others and must be kept unified by a coherent shared identity and by keeping out those who fall outside that identity'.

You apply that thinking to the group 'women', you get terfs.

You apply that thinking to the lgbtia+ community, you get exclusionist, you get 'drop the t', you get anti-ace discourse.

You apply that thinking to a political group, you get thought police and echo chambers.

You apply it to a subculture and the subculture becomes insufferable and eventually dies.

Learn to recognize it and go 'no, we're not doing nationalism, we're a coalition of people with diverse experiences working towards shared goals' and you're stopped like half the possible bullshit you can fall into.

[nqueso-emergency]

It seems like some people are loosing sight of the fact that this didn’t really start as a ship war at all.

Most Tevan shippers don’t fucking care who you ship. Go ahead and ship Buddie, that’s the traditional reason for fanfic and fanart.

The Buddies who aren’t being toxic have been asking why we’re so mad about people still shipping Buddie instead of shipping Tevan.

Not sure how they are still missing that we’re ACTUALLY mad about the swirling toxic echo chamber that is purposely being created by a couple of BNF’s who are making money off Buddie ‘going canon’ and not caring that they have been creating an atmosphere where:

-it’s totally normal to be incredibly homophobic about masculine gay men

-it’s totally acceptable to ruin every social media post from official accounts with hundreds of angry comments threatening violence or sometimes even death to the people involved in making the show and/or the actors

-it’s toxic enough that someone thought they would be supported in their awful efforts to hurt people by writing CSA fics and purposefully forcing them upon people without warning. They were confident that they could do this without getting called out by Buddie shippers because of the general atmosphere that has been cultivated by some BNF’s and they were CORRECT about that

-the incredibly public harassment, homophobia, and threats of violence/death/doxxing that have been aimed directly at any BuckTommy discourse

Like, I’m sorry that you’re sad that not everyone is a Buddie shipper anymore, if they ever were to begin with. Some of us used to ship it for fun not because it was supposed to become real. Some of us have watched 911 from the beginning and SURPRISE, never shipped it to begin with.

But saying we are bringing the toxicity to the 911 fandom is being disingenuous and missing why we’re actually angry.

Stop missing the point on purpose.

READ

[zahri-melitor]

In terms of 'people haven't read comics' I actually think there's a nuanced position people sort of instinctively understand and don't spell out:-

A lot of people enter comics fandom via an adaption medium (be that movies, video games, tv shows, cartoons)

That means they come in with a level of background understanding of various characters existing and some knowledge of them via osmosis, either from adapted stories or reading fic

General fandom discussion tends to coalesce around a small subset of characters and story runs

Because getting into comics is expensive, people preference what's easily available and/or what's most highly recommended in an attempt to maximise a story they will like

This is where all the panicking about 'where to start' comes in - it's overwhelmingly huge to look at and people are scared of 'getting it wrong'

They then read a run of a comic. Given all of the above for DC it's probably going to be a Bat comic, and there's a good chance it's UTRH, Red Robin 1-12, Batgirl 2000, Robin: Son of Batman, or The Court of Owls. They want the best storyline after all and that's what people tell them are favourites

They have also from being peripheral to the fandom noticed discourse about how certain stories/writers 'don't get' or 'ruin' characters and then avoid reading those stories

Because people are likely to only have read this small subset of stories, the discussion then focuses further on that subset

Echo chamber, the narrative that there's no such thing as a consistent canon in comics causes people to continue to avoid reading further, because they've been told Not To Read certain writers, and what they read doesn't really match how the fandom describes it

Because they're enjoying the fandom, they lean into the fanon and just...never read more comics. Sometimes pride themselves on not doing so

You end up with people who have 'read comics' but they mean about 3 famous runs totalling well under 100 issues, and very little comfort with even DC teams or families outside of the Bats

The current situation compounds because people aren’t comfortable with reading characters written by different writers and how that changes the story, even though that’s a huge part of comics

[qqueenofhades]

what's been particularly vile to me is this group of white online leftists who insist that anyone who cares about more than this one issue for the election is a bad person, like, as if us black and brown people are making up reasons to be afraid and not.....believing the gop when they say they are coming for us. believing trump who has said previously that he does not bluff, that he will do the things he's said he will do (i hate what social media has gone to the word gaslighting but it feels like gaslighting. we lived through four years of trump. we saw the damage. stop treating us like we're being dramatic). it must be great to not have to worry about that i guess? "life won't change under trump" is such a telling admission because maybe theirs won't but mine will. and so many others' will.

and it is often again these (white) online leftists that love to call anyone who disagrees with them a white liberal (derogatory) because they know it would be racist (bad) to be this shitty and condescending to poc but they don't want to actually listen to anything black and brown voters are saying. it's easier to just call us white liberals and throw our opinions out, to ignore the work of black people for decades to gain the right to vote, to disregard the weight of telling them to not do that. it's genuinely appalling. they care so much about racism until it's time to engage with poc who have different opinions than their online echo chambers, then we're just stupid liberals with terrible opinions like..... wanting to live. not wanting four more years of trump. so sorry for that.

sorry for this vent in your inbox, i'm just so fucking tired of white people trying to rewrite history as if trump wasn't that bad. he was for my family and countless others and i am terrified for what's to come if he wins.

The thing about (the often-white) Online Leftists is that they have become just as much as a radicalized death cult as the diehard Trumpists. If you don't want to die for The Revolution and/or sacrifice your life, friends, family, the rest of the country, etc., then you're Insufficiently Pure and must be Purged. (Which I think is just complete BS, as none of them could actually handle sacrificing anything, but it's increasingly the only kind of performative rhetoric that is acceptable in leftist-identified discourse spaces.) This is functionally identical to "if you aren't willing to lay down your life for our Lord and Savior Donald Trump and the Great White Christian Nationalist Dictatorship, you're a liberal cuck," but with the names and justification changed. It doesn't change the underlying radicalization, nihilism, and insanity of the premise.

Another thing the Trumpists and the Online Leftists have in common is that they are busily rewriting just how bad Trump was in order to serve their Ideology. Ever since January 6, 2021, the Republicans have thrown everything they have at revising and whitewashing any suggestion that it was an "insurrection," and the Online Leftists have done the same, in an attempt to "prove" their insane point that Trump "would be better" than Biden. This is embodied in the recent ultimate-brainworm-nonsense maximalist-online take that "Biden has to lose so the rest of the world will see that the US rejects genocide!!!" That's right, the message that the rest of the world would take from Biden losing to Trump is that the US rejects genocide. Never mind if Trump literally wants to commit all the genocide possible and to install himself as a fascist theocratic dictator. In the deeply twisted minds of the Online Leftists, this is the only possible interpretation of Biden's loss, so they'll push for it as hard as they can! The Trumpists and the Online Leftists, at this point, are working pretty much in concert to damage Biden for similar insane reasons and get Trump elected. Etc etc., one Nazi and ten people at the same table is eleven Nazis.

Like. Sure. Four years ago, when Trump was president and people were dying by the thousands because he didn't want to wear a mask because it smeared his bronzer, just to name literally one of the terrible things he did every single day (and not even mentioning how much worse a second term would be) we were absolutely better off. Super-duper great. (Sarcasm.) Either that or "there is suffering and evil in the world and the only solution is to drastically increase the suffering and evil for everyone and to destroy what progress we have managed to make because It Does Not Fix Everything Now" is an absolute moral imperative, and either way, yeah. I'm calling bullshit.

[interstellarsystem]

We've made many posts on this before, so I don't need to reiterate all of our points on it. If you want links to more in-depth posts on this I can grab them for you.

But the point is: We will not be pushed out of DID/OSDD/Disordered system spaces. But we're quoigenic, isn't that invading spaces? We are literally diagnosed with DID. But we support endos, isn't that invading spaces? We are literally diagnosed with DID, why does our stance matter if it's a space about the disorder we have? But we [insert something else here], isn't that invading spaces? DID systems can access DID system spaces. End of story.

We've went long enough sitting here allowing ourselves to be pushed out of spaces we belong in, sitting in a grey area of not relating wholly to endogenics and not being allowed to dare look at DID spaces because we, checks notes, don't hate people for existing and hm let me see here, have headmates separate from our DID formed ones that we also see as people. Interesting how that works. But we're done with it. We WILL tag our posts with the OSDDID tags, the actually DID tags, the disordered system tags, the systempunk tags and whatever else where applicable. Why? We're a part of the damn groups that belong there. And we're done with making ourselves so small and inoffensive because either way we get hate. We have DID, we can enter DID spaces, that's final. We're growing to be more open and unapologetic about who we are and this is another step toward that. Not letting discourse walk all over where we put our posts.

Like yes, people without disordered symptoms don't need to access purely disordered spaces. I get that. But guess what? We are literally disordered. That isn't going to change because we also have soulbonds. Being so strongly anti-endo hurts people with the very disorder you claim to protect. You don't care about systems, you don't care about people with DID, because if you did, you wouldn't kick out systems with DID who are pro-endo. You wouldn't hate mixed origin systems with DID. If you cared about the disorder and people with it, there wouldn't be an "except those ones" box you put people you disagree with in.

Hurting people with disorders based on unrelated views isn't helping anyone. It isn't punk. It isn't inclusionist. It isn't protecting anything except the echo chamber of hate.

[luxen-r]

Unpopular opinion:

Radblr seems like an echo chamber to you because of the dogpiling (which other women have worded much better than I could ever) AND because the fist thing we do is hand out accusations like they’re candy. You can’t going around accusing other people and then getting mad because they get defensive. We ALL do it or participate it in it one way or another.

And I’m not talking about the right wingers who just hate trans people and call themselves radicals. I’m talking about our fellow radfems. We are not perfect, there’s always new information coming up to the surface, people can get things wrong. We come from different backgrounds (I come from a tiny ass country, I’m not white, and get accused of being a white westerner). We will always have biases and circumstances that we have to overcome together to reach true female consciousness. However, you are too worried trying to be correct and stewing in your dignified anger.

What I’m trying to say is: get off your high horse, if you feel defensive or angry then cool off, and start communicating and listening to each other.

You have a right to be angry and express your opinion. But don’t just throw it at radblr and then complain that discourse is not possible. You want reasonable discourse on radblr, then BE the reasonable discourse.

[theroguefeminist]

Something that should not be surprising to me is how prominent feminist subreddits have become echo chambers that censor and exclude marginalized voices and perpetuate toxic strains of feminism. r/feminism regularly features highly upvoted posts that promote islamophobia. A lot of these posts feature titles you wouldn't be surprised to see as a Fox News headline. It's THAT racist. If you try to argue anything in response, you get slapped with a permanent ban. r/askfeminists is crawling with SWERFs and will slap you with a ban if you have any nuanced take on sex work or BDSM.

These subreddits become echo chambers that villify Muslims, sex work, kink, or any groups they determine are "unfeminist." The mechanism of moderation on reddit stifles a diversity of opinions if the moderators are steeped in a particular ideology and censor civil discourse that includes alternative perspectives. The moderators of prominent feminist subreddits, who are most likely primarily white and cisgender, are turning back the clock on the progress intersectional feminism had made by silencing marginalized voices. They are bringing back a time where only certain voices can be heard. They believe in only one kind of feminism, and any other points of view from women of color, Muslim women, sex workers, or women who have sex in ways they personally disapprove of, are excluded.

[0w0tsuki]

It's always telling that the only time when transandro bros even dain to recognize intracommunity transmisogyny, it's only when they're forced to distance themselves from the rampant transmisogynists in their community whose transmisogyny is so cartoonish it becomes undeniable. And it's only to preserve image and position themselves as the non-reactionary alternative.

They did it when one of their own sent out rapey sexual harassment copypasta anons to trans lesbians. They did this when already infamous "transmisogyny group chat"/"The TMRA Radfems warned you about" faggotwithopinions/transmascpeterwenz treated becoming mutuals with the CEO who permabanned a trans woman for no reason and followed her off-site to violate privacy data protections in order to paint her as a sex pest as Huge Get. They did this when TERFs felt comfortable with their communities transmisogyny to openly talk about how they plan to use transandro bros specifically to drive a wedge in the trans community, something trans andro bros accuse transfeminists of all the time.

And when I say it's only in these cases it is ONLY in these wildly cartoonish scenarios. Back when the "transmisogyny group chat" was still fresh news, something that usually happens when a queer transmisogynist shows their full ass happened. A bunch of TERFs who stalk these discourses because they're obsessed with trans women went into his anons to send the most vile hate they could summon while pretending to be trans women so our abusers have something they can point to to play victim. And all the transandro bros took these ANONYMOUS HATE MESSAGES sending gendered slurs/sexual harassment at FACE VALUE when they said they were coming from trans women. It got so bad that prominent transandro bro GenderKoolaid when "dissecting and analyzing" a cropped screenshot of a post by Predstrogen (you know the trans woman who was later outsted by the CEO himself) made some wild speculation about how an offhand comment about "transfems taking the piss" was a direct joke reveling in this harassment.

And there are still plenty of blatant transmisogynists that are propped up as prominent members of the transandro community because they haven't had their own "Me and CarExplosionsHammer Photomatt are besties!" moment. There's the aforementioned GenderKoolaid who routinely engaged with "critiquing" transfeminists posts out of context behind their back and alongside spacelazarwolf has promoted the kiwifarms style blog transandrophobia-archive.

They harbor loads of ex TERFs. ftmtftm who left a 31 paragraph college dissertation with proper citations carefully explaining why I'm either purposely unintellectual or actually stupid and what I was saying was radfeminism aktually when I was looking through his blog before blocking him I saw 1) him lamenting about feeling abandoned by the radfem community he was apparently raised by and 2) him sighing with fucking "transmisoginy group chat" faggotwithopinions of all people about how "these Actual Transmisogynists™ make it so hard for us Actually Nice TMRAs and we need to put an effort to come across as considerate to their experiences with them when we engage with transfems" acting like they they aren't the very problem they are complaining about.

An out Ex-TERF nothorses is responsible for cultivating the current transandro echo chamber tried to use his influence in the community he helped create to try and redefine TERF to try to allow for the label to paradoxically include trans women. After that he wrote an anti-transfeminist manifesto that "defined" Beaddelism and cited open TERF sources. And this manifesto is still constantly linked by transandro bros whenever someone outside the discourse asks what a beaddel is.

The transmisogyny is so bad in their community but simultaneously is explicitly an outlier and not representative of them. Every prominent member is transmisogynists Georg and should not be counted but only when you can prove he is unequivocally, beyond the shadow of a doubt, transmisogynist. Up until then everything he does is fine until it's not.

To transandro bros "transmisogynistic trans men" is this Mystical Other problem that can only be solved with better PR and is completely unaddressable and says nothing about their community at all. Something that they've wholly separated from themselves that's only addressed in the theoretical until they're forced to confront it because they've fostered it so much it's become too big to ignore.

Like if your truly "one of the good ones" whose "only trying to talk about specific issues trans men face" then ask yourself why you've aligned with an ideology founded directly in opposition to transfeminis?. Why do you stand with a community whose mest well regarded members are also some of the most rampant transmisogynists on this site? Why you are constantly having to do PR work to not be instantly regarded as on the transmisogynists that you're community has become known for?Why you refuse to address the transmisogyny problem so much that out and proud TERFs feel comfortable enough to walk right in and start proposing "AMAB supremacy" theory?

Like I've said before. The disgusting actions and behaviors from the community alone are enough to not regard any "theory" they put forth to excuse it.

[proshippers-against-censorship]

UWU stop interacting with antis. If you’re anti-censorship then act like it, you can’t stop people from having opinions <3 coming from someone who isn’t pro or anti ship because I’m not a 15 year old porn addicted gooner

This is a discourse blog. A discourse blog that speaks quite a bit about sexual topics. If a 15 year old was running this blog, I would have concerns, in all honesty, because they really shouldn't be interacting as publicly and openly with NSFW content.

However, your comment alone helps to display why, while I'm perfectly fine running my discourse blog as a discourse blog, this may not be the place for you. So let's break this down:

• No adult with any desire to be taken seriously by anyone uses the term 'gooner' unironically. That being said, you give off the red flags of being a younger teen, and interacting directly with NSFW content easily breaches the boundaries of adults.

• If a 15yo was regularly interacting with porn to the point that this is easily known, their parents can be held liable in multiple states. You could try reporting me to the police for being a 'porn-addicted minor'. Unfortunately, you will come off as a laughingstock, because I'm not a minor and I also just...don't watch porn. Unlike you, presumably, I am in a lovely relationship with a significant other who can handle those desires.

•The APA and DSM-5 do NOT classify porn addictions as real, and therefore, they aren't a thing. Multiple studies, as well, have disproven the existence of the 'porn addiction'. This idea can be traced back to - wait for it - Christian Puritanical anti-sex culture. Now, as much as church needs to be better separated out of everything, the Christian God does not run my life nor most countries, and so his religious anti-sex ideals are irrelevant.

• I'm guessing you just, don't read (shocker), but if you check out that beautiful intro paragraph that is pinned on this blog, you'll notice that I welcome opinions shared in a civil way, even if they oppose my own, and am in fact quite stern on the idea that you shouldn't lock yourself in an echo chamber. Hearing contrasting opinions can help strengthen or even change your core beliefs. But that whole idea leans on the idea that neither side is pissing their pants over discovering that their ideals don't extend to everyone, which is what you appear to be doing here. I am welcome to conversations on why you think what I'm doing is stupid, but I'm not going to bother with you unless you put on your big boy pants and be a mature person.

• You aren't 'neither', you're an anti. You scream it throughout your whole message. So if this account bothers you, why don't you do yourself a service and block it instead of being annoying in my DMs?

• This point is just here to see if you have the capacity to actually read things, since you obviously know nothing about this account despite the big ole pinned post. Go have some tea, get in a better mood, and then feel free to come back for a more progressive, civil conversation. It'd be good for you.

[system-of-a-feather]

Honestly I really feel some people take the "if you are sitting at a table with four Nazis having dinner, then there are five Nazis at the table" line to the extent that "if you ever are friends (or in some cases, talk) with someone with a less than ideal view then you are inherently supporting their ideology" and then that is also taken to "you need to make sure everyone you talk to is fully in line and agreement with the least problematic opinions at all time because everyone you engage with is inherently a reflection of your moral character" is honestly like…. a huge problem built from a well meaning place and just puritan culture

You might be wondering "what made Feathers say this"

Nothing other than me thinking about how honest to god collaborative and supportive the birding community is and that there is very very very little concern about anything other than birding when you walk up to a stranger who seems to be birding and ask if theyve seen anything interesting

And me just thinking about how that really discourse / politics / social issue removed space, environment and culture is a really nice thing to have that is unfortunately becoming rarer and rarer

A lot of social engagements with people almost seem to have to preface with a "do we have the same opinions on everything" - looking at extensive DNIs and what not - before you ever even get to talk or engage with people and it makes for a pretty just… kinda sad environment

Sad and unnuanced and non communicative environment and of course echo chambers

I feel a lot of people have lost the skill of "agree to disagree" in attempts to be morally correct at all times

I think its kinda sad how a lot of relationships and friendships have strings attached to being 100% on the same page about everything