#cdd research

[sysmedsaresexist]

Since my reply is hidden, I've decided to just make my own post about this and put some accurate info out there.

Covert DID vs Overt DID & Possession vs Non-possession: They don't mean what you think they mean!

Here's a bunch of facts and info in no particular order!

I saw a post about how masking isn't a type of covert DID, and I'm here to tell you that

Masking was the original covert!

Dissociation and the Dissociative Disorders (by Dorahy, Gold & O'Neil, 2nd edition, 2023)

You know the statistic in the DSM about covert/overt systems? It's taken from Kluft, above. And it includes masking.

Covert and overt aren't actually used all that often clinically, but it actually has several meanings, INCLUDING MASKING. Neither has to do with possession or non-possession, but they're unfortunately often incorrectly equated as "possession form = overt" and "non-possession = covert". They can overlap, but this is incorrect!

Possession's biggest use is for a disorder that no longer exists as a separate entry in the DSM 5.

Possession-Trance disorder still exists in the ICD, though, and we'll start there.

Trance disorder

"The trance state is not characterised by the experience of being replaced by an alternate identity."

"Trance Disorder is characterized by recurrent or single and prolonged involuntary marked alteration in an individual’s state of consciousness involving a trance state (without possession)."

"The trance state is not characterized by the experience of being replaced by an alternate identity."

"The identities of the possessing agents typically correspond to figures from the religious traditions in the society."

"In Possession Trance Disorder, the individual’s normal sense of personal identity is experienced as being replaced by an external ‘possessing’ spirit, power, deity or other spiritual entity, which is not the case in Trance Disorder. Possession trance states often include more complex activities (e.g., coherent conversations, characteristic gestures, facial expressions, specific verbalizations) than are typical of trance states, which tend to involve less complex activities (e.g., staring, falling)."

We can already see how this is starting to play out with overt/covert and non-possession/possession form.

Possession trance disorder

"Possession trance disorder is characterised by trance states in which there is a marked alteration in the individual’s state of consciousness and the individual’s customary sense of personal identity is replaced by an external ‘possessing’ identity and in which the individual’s behaviours or movements are experienced as being controlled by the possessing agent."

"Trance episodes are attributed to the influence of an external ‘possessing’ spirit, power, deity or other spiritual entity."

"During possession trance states, the activities performed are often relatively complex (e.g., coherent conversations, characteristic gestures, facial expressions, specific verbalizations that are frequently culturally accepted as belonging to a particular possessing agent)."

"Presumed possessing agents in Possession Trance Disorder are usually spiritual in nature (e.g., spirits of the dead, gods, demons, or other spiritual entities) and are often experienced as making demands or expressing animosity."

"The identities of the possessing agents typically correspond to figures from the religious traditions in the society."

"This is distinguished from Dissociative Identity Disorder and Partial Dissociative Identity Disorder, which are characterized by the experience of two or more distinct, alternate personality states that are not attributed to an external possessing agent. Individuals describing both internally and externally attributed alternate identities should receive a diagnosis of Dissociative Identity Disorder or Partial Dissociative Identity Disorder. In this situation, an additional diagnosis of Possession Trance Disorder should not be assigned."

From Dissociative Identity Disorder, I only want to note one thing:

"Individuals who describe both internal distinct personality states that assume executive control as well as episodes of being controlled by an external possessing identity should receive a diagnosis of Dissociative Identity Disorder rather than Possession Trance Disorder."

So, already, we've learned that possession and non-possession have to do with whether the entities are experienced as internal or external agents.

You'll note that the ICD doesn't mention covert or overt at all.

So back to the DSM-- “possession” was diagnosed as Atypical Dissociative Disorder in the DSM-III or DDNOS in DSM-III-R. In DSM-IV, possession and trance were diagnosed as sub-categories of the Dissociative Trance Disorder (DTD), and in DSM-IV-TR they were merged into one, and recognized as a cultural variant of the Dissociative Disorder Not Otherwise Specified [DDNOS]. In DSM-5, possession-form presentations are linked with criterion A of DID: “Disruption of identity characterized by two or more distinct personality states, which may be described in some cultures as an experience of possession” (p. 292).

Another common myth has to do with amnesia and covert/overt. The facts are:

Covert DID is associated with the highest levels of blackout amnesia. That's how it stays covert. People have amnesia for their own amnesia. It's an incredible phenomenon that's highly documented.

Overt DID typically has the same or less amnesia. It's much harder to explain away noticeable behaviour so people are much more aware of their own gaps in memory and can begin treatment sooner. They're much more easily diagnosed. As internal dialogue and intrusion are far more different in these entities, people become aware sooner and experience more grey out amnesia thanks to this basic awareness.

Covert DID is no longer diagnosed as OSDD 1a. The DSM 5 introduced new reporting criteria that allow the patient and their family to self report switches. OSDD and DDNOS 1a were primarily used for situations where the clinician didn't witness a switch during interviewing. As such, OSDD these days mainly covers P-DID presentations where switching is genuinely rare, if it happens at all. While P-DID is less associated with amnesia, OSDD 1a will require it. P-DID without amnesia will fall into 1b or DID itself, thanks to the DSM's updated amnesia wording.

For this next bit, I'll be using the DSM 5, as that's what I have in front of me, for the purposes of this conversation, this version will do fine.

"Dissociative identity disorder is characterized by a) the presence of two or more distinct personality states or an experience of possession."

"The fragmentation of identity may vary with culture (e.g., possession-form presentations) and circumstance. Thus, individuals may experience discontinuities in identity and memory that may not be immediately evident to others or are obscured by attempts to hide dysfunction."

You know, overt/covert, and wow, it doesn't just have to do with the entities, BUT HOW YOU DESCRIBE YOUR DISORDER?!

You mean... like masking?

Holy shit, yeah, the DSM just said that.

These terms are not as interchangeable as some people think they are. They have very unique meanings and are very different concepts, not only from each other, but from how they're often used within the community.

To reiterate:

Possession form = external entities

Non-possession = internal entities

Overt = noticeable behaviour and mannerisms

Covert = hidden or sneaky behaviour or mannerisms

These can and do overlap, but exist as separate concepts.

More from the DSM:

"The defining feature of dissociative identity disorder is the presence of two or more distinct personality states or an experience of possession (Criterion A). The overtness or covertness of these personality states, however, varies as a function of psychological motivation, current level of stress, culture, internal conflicts and dynamics, and emotional resilience."

Oh, wow, it changes over time and can vary between alters themselves?! Wow.

"Sustained periods of identity disruption may occur when psychosocial pressures are severe and/or prolonged. In many possession-form cases of dissociative identity disorder, and in a small proportion of non-possession-form cases, manifestations of alternate identities are highly overt. Most individuals with non-possession-form dissociative identity disorder do not overtly display their discontinuity of identity for long periods of time; only a small minority present to clinical attention with observable alternation of identities."

"Possession-form identities in dissociative identity disorder typically manifest as behaviors that appear as if a “spirit,�� supernatural being, or outside person has taken control, such that the individual begins speaking or acting in a distinctly different manner. For example, an individual’s behavior may give the appearance that her identity has been replaced by the “ghost” of a girl who committed suicide in the same community years before, speaking and acting as though she were still alive. Or an individual may be “taken over” by a demon or deity, resulting in profound impairment, and demanding that the individual or a relative be punished for a past act, followed by more subtle periods of identity alteration."

So, yes, according to the DSM, purposefully masking is a covert presentation, and it has nothing to do with possession or non-possession form. The way a system "naturally" presents will change many times over the course of their disorder.

IN FACT, if we want to get technical, covert actually refers specifically to heavy fragmentation in most clinical texts. Fragments are typically experienced internally and as intrusion, rather than switches. Here's a source.

Covert DID is a less dramatic and more subtle form of the disorder. In this variant, individuals with DID do not display overt switches or distinct personalities. Instead, they experience a fragmentation of their identity, leading to a lack of continuity in their sense of self and memory. These individuals may not even be aware of their condition and might attribute their memory lapses and identity shifts to stress, forgetfulness, or other factors.

Covert DID can be challenging to diagnose because the symptoms are less obvious. It often goes unrecognized for years, and individuals may suffer in silence without understanding the source of their difficulties. Therapy and expert evaluation are essential for identifying and addressing covert DID.

And another.

In addition, diagnostic challenges can result from identity alteration or personality switching not as obvious as expected. In fact, many patients have “covert DID” or “OSDD,” which is characterized by partial dissociation (e.g., dissociative intrusions) rather than full dissociation (i.e., switching plus amnesia).

In the end, though, these terms aren't used all that often, and various uses will still be understood in a clinical setting. Doctors can't even agree on definitions, so use them however you want.

It's not that big of a deal.

I hope this post was useful, even if it was a bit disjointed.

[sleepy-shutin]

interesting snippet from a paper i'm currently reading, (the imitation of DID, therapists at risk, patients at risk - draijer, 1999)

[autizta]

what do traumaendo systems pick in your poll-

I didn't add midway terms for a reason, stop and think which of those descriptions are CLOSEST to how you feel, doesn't have to be an exact description

[sysciety]

Open system question - how would you personally define ANP and EP? Do you stick closer to what the research/medical definition is, or does it deviate (it's ok if you don't know!) I've been reading parts of the haunted self recently (chapter 1-4 specifically) which has made me curious on what the community perception on the definitions were and how they deviate from clinical ones

[system-of-a-feather]

Short Term Memory + CDD; Survey Data Analysis

Hey its been a while XD I finally am getting around to computing some of the data analysis while I have time during my recovery from top surgery. With that being said, to increase the likliness of putting *anything* out, as I crunch the numbers and what not, I'll post them in updates.

With that being said, while I'd like to invest the time into doing proper statistic measures to test statistical significance, I am currently Too Lazy to do that for a small fun project. Maybe if I get bored and have time I will properly run those statistics, but for now, yall can get what you get

[the-abyssal-system]

Singlets stop talking about systems as if you’re an expert because you follow some on tumblr challenge (also warning the tags here are a huge rant so feel free to ignore that)

[multipleterminologysurvey]

In an effort to make this survey productive, we've been learning about social and survey research and methods, etc.

The good news is that we were already aware enough of things people need to question about research and surveys, along with considerations for ways the survey itself can influence peoples' answers, that it all is similar to the idea we already had in mine for how to approach this. It's not formal research, but it's not taking a shot in the dark and going into it without having any idea of what we're doing.

We have been learning a lot though, and it's very interesting.

[sysmedsaresexist]

DSM 5-TR Associated Features for DID

Important DSM wording and description updates!

[sleepy-shutin]

snippet from another study i'm currently reading, (MPD in the netherlands - a clinical investigation of 71 patients - boon & draijer, 1993)

[soldier--poet--queen]

crying screaming sobbing throwing up etc over livio/razlo in the manga

[seasidewanderers]

what I don't understand about syscourse is: why is only syscourse like this?

like... every other disorder ever happens on a spectrum of "disordered" to "presentation in the non-ill population"

I'm gonna take schizophrenia and schizospec disorders for this - specifically, the criteria as are in the DSM-V, even though I prefer the ICD-11 - both because CDDs are often mistaken as schizospec (alters mistaken for hallucinations, flashbacks for delusions, skill regression and loss for disorganised speech and behaviour, mood symptoms for negative affect or mania/depression, etc) and also because it's one of the most united communities I've found online

the schizophrenia spectrum is understood to be happening on a spectrum of

schizophrenia / schizoaffective -> delusional disorder / schizophreniform / brief psychotic disorder -> schizotypal personality disorder -> (attenuated psychosis syndrome ->) presentation in the non-ill population

what the fuck does that mean?

schizophrenia and schizoaffective feature all symptoms you can think of when thinking of them - hallucinations, delusions, disorganised behaviour, thoughts and speech, and negative affect (plus major mood episodes in schizoaffective, so a major depressive episode or a manic episode)

not always all of them together but all of them are diagnostic criteria. they also have a longer duration and generally - not always - more severe symptoms.

delusional disorder and brief psychotic disorder feature less symptoms - namely they don't feature negative symptoms, and delusional disorder only features delusions as the name... suggests. brief psychotic disorder also states that the person must have a full return in functionality after the episode (1 day to 1 month in duration)

schizophreniform is on a thin line. it features all symptoms of schizophrenia minus the duration - 1 month to 6 months, vs 6+ months for schizophrenia. it's usually diagnosed when psychiatrists aren't sure whether the duration qualifies for schizophrenia or not, so it's a temporary diagnosis to wait it out and see if the symptoms resolve after 6 months or are enduring.

schizotypal is both on the schizophrenia spectrum and a personality disorder. full psychotic episodes are fairly rare and I get them under stress, usually a traumatic flashback. it's more about how it relates to others and sense of identity - the personality features.

attenuated psychosis syndrome is not officially recognised in the DSM-V, it's in "conditions for further study". it's still interesting to me because it blurs the lines between psychotic and non-psychotic even more. it features quasi-psychotic symptoms that are distressing enough to be disordered, but never get severe enough to qualify to a schizospec disorder. I would love to find out more about it personally if it ever were to be included in the official diagnosis, or if there are studies on similar phenomena

"in the non-ill population" means that experiencing symptoms alone, without impairment or distress, is not enough for a diagnosis. you're someone who experiences hallucinations, delusions etc but you don't have a schizospec disorder or another disorder that could cause the symptom (such as bipolar, major depression, a personality disorder)

however... what was it all about?

the schizophrenia spectrum is so, so diverse. someone who's been hallucinating for 2 days and has no other impairment is as psychotic as a severely schizophrenic person who's homeless, without a job, can't take care of themselves on their own, etc is

it would be stupid and pointless to kick one out. schizophrenia and schizoaffective aren't less diagnosed because non-ill psychotic people exist. there's no pushback against diagnosis of schizospec disorders. there is no "anti non-schizospec psychotics" community. r/schizophrenia is inclusive and wonderful, it specifically includes schizotypals and psychotics with or without a disorder, and non-psychotic loved ones, and researchers who'd like to talk to psychotics first-hand

why are we still doing this?

"endos are pushing research on CDDs back!" how would they do that? is there a billionaire endo lobby somewhere that can take decisions on mental healthcare?

"if you change opinions the anti endo community may welcome you" this was just vile to read

"endos are just in denial" they could be? most likely they aren't though. lots are very aware they're traumatised but also that their plurality wasn't caused by trauma. also for anything to be a disorder, it must be disordered. if they're not bothered by their symptoms and they're not impaired, they don't have a CDD. or a disorder of any kind for that matter. easy

this is just so fucking stupid. we will never achieve anything in the real world if we can't even agree on who the enemy is (it's not endos. it's ableism in the real world that has tangible consequences)

[arrayoflightarchives]

I think about this a lot when approaching systemhood and is the cause of a lot of our denial

We had some hard events in childhood with my parent being a disabled single parent and my whole family being undiagnosed neurodivergent so struggling to function in a normal way but it wasn't "traumatic" in the way people categorise trauma generally both online and in psychology however it did impact our development.

It was only age 11 when things got really bad and what would be concidered "traumatic" by most people and so I heavily dissociated daily for 2 straight years

The not quite traumatic but still harder than most childhood alongside the theory that for autistic children there is probably a later stage/age of ego-state fusion is a lot of the reason of our systemhood

If the childhood stuff had happened and then nothing more we probably wouldn't have been a system however the prevention of ego-state fusion is more likely to be a big part of my systemhood

This is still traumagenic systemhood but it is seeing that as less binary than the like 6-9 rule that lots of people like to state (I haven't found much research that actually gives these ages)

Brains are complicated and putting these rigid ideas onto them only does more harm

hey! CDD system community

lets please stop forgetting that there are different thresholds to trauma that can cause systems to develop past the age of just 9/10 (meaning into early teens)

developmental + cognitive disabilities play a big role in this too remember, as well as neurodiversity

(not low support needs audhd but those with higher support needs- i do not have the knowledge to expand on this further but will be researching more)

there is nuance here some of yall are forgetting and it excludes a lot of people

[steaming-system-takes]

My hot take is that people should mind their own business LOLL.

“But they’re saying theyre a young system with over 400 alters!” Mind your business.

“But they’re not diagnosed!” If they’ve done their research, mind your business.

“They’re making jokes about being a system and saying they love their headmates!” ???? Mind your business??

A good example of when to NOT mind your business is when someone is spreading blatant misinformation with a platform of any kind or size. If a system is just living their life, trying to cope with their disorder, and finding ways to understand their system MIND YOUR BUSINESS. NO ONE OWES YOU AN EXPLANATION AS TO WHY THEY HANDLE IT THE WAY THEY DO. THEY DON’T OWE YOU AN EXPLANATION AS TO WHY THEIR SYSTEM IS LIKE THAT!!! CDDs LIKE MOST DISORDERS ARE ON A WIDE SPECTRUM!!!!!!!!! MIND YOUR BUSINESS!!!!

^

[sysmedsaresexist]

News Flash ⚡️

The Inner Vehicle, Prayer, Tulpamancy, and the Magic of the Mind, 2024

Well, shit (check comments)

T.M. Luhrmann has demonstrated the role of mental imagery practices which allow evangelical Christians in the Vineyard Church to hear and interact with God through their physical senses combined with focused mental concentration. The online community of tulpamancers employs similar practices to develop a kind of imaginary friend within their mind, known as a tulpa. This paper compares the psychological processes in question, arguing that both evangelical Christians in the Vineyard Church and tulpamancers use similar imaginal techniques foster the experience of contact with a non-human other (God in the case of evangelical Christians and tulpas in the case of tulpamancers). It also explores how Christian tulpamancers reconcile their prayer practices with the tulpa-creation process and how they differentiate between interactions with their tulpas on one hand and God on the other.

[clover-cdd-confessions]

Welcome! This blog is for those with CDDs (complex dissociative disorders) and other disorders to talk about their experiences, vent, etc! While the blog is focused on DID/OSDD-1/P-DID/UDD, you can talk about other disorders or just chat! Those who are questioning or singlets who are curious about these disorders may ask questions, though I'm not a professional and I encourage everyone to do their own research. Please let me know if you wouldn't like a response, if you're looking for advice, resources, etc

This is my first time running a blog like this, so please let me know if I say something incorrect or unintentionally rude. I have RSD and autism along with other things, so please be nice! You can use they/them for the owner of this account 🍀 I'd prefer you not interact if: - You claim to be/support "non-traumagenic systems". This is impossible according to all current science on the matter. Systems are caused by trauma, and saying otherwise is insulting and ableist - You're a queer exclusionist - You don't support BLM, Free Palestine, etc - You demonize personality disorders/use the term "narc abuse" - You're a radqueer/transID People with personality disorders, psychosis, anti-contact/pro-recovery paraphiles, and proshippers are welcome. Antishippers are allowed as long as they are respectful. I don't care what your stance is on shipcourse, just be nice :) 🍀 When sending in asks, please warn for: selfharm, suicide, homicide, child/animal death (especially if caused by people/manmade objects), incest, & sexual abuse (feel free to warn for other common triggers, or specific ones - the only thing I ask is to not warn for things like disabilities, scars, or food; ty!) 🍀 SIGNOFF LIST