#aspd question

[writingbrainrot]

Hey does anyone who has aspd have tips for how i can best communicate with bio dad who has undiagnosed aspd.

I am audhd and also a system with c-ptsd/ctx

Unrelated to the aspd symptoms that i personally think bio dad very clearly shows, he tends to also end up toxic due to the childhood trauma he went through.

I could explain to bio mom who has bpd why what she was doing was hurting me after a lot of effort and heartache because her neurodiversity manifests so that her emotions are how she processes and understands the world.

Bio dad enters his shell/becomes defensive at any "stop that" or "no" which triggers my SA trauma so it ends up escalating and i end up getting really serious autistic meltdowns.

It's almost like he has emotional responses to the world but tries to logically pick that apart but has a boatload of alexithymia.

I can't figure out which communication method will make him "listen to me to understand instead of listen to me to respond because unless i explicitly ask for a response, then i don't need one, especially when i am upset and dysregulated and crying" (yes i've told him that i need him to do so in these words, this is a paraphrasing quote that i've tried to write accurately)

Because from what i can tell his fight or flight or freeze gets mildly activated at any percieved critique and then he treats me like a threat and in the past compared me to his abusive mother despite me being his underage child at the time which struck me as odd and is why i remark on it. He seems to still be doing that but just like then he denies accusing me of being a bully or thinking of me as a threat. Despite his body instantly changing, his tone going very short and aggressive, starting to insult and raise his voice etc etc which i conclude is him being defensive.

But as i'm sure you understand i need to be able to tell him "hey stop, you're hurting me" and he stops instead of trying to debate if he has actually hurt me (which i have also expressed he shouldn't do as that causes things to escalate for me)

So the tldr is:

What communication method/script works best? Ik one person with aspd is only one person with aspd and doesnt represent the whole neurotype but i have literally no insight into how this neurotype processes the world, thinks and feels compared to my neurotype so i need something, anything, to start bridging the gap/translating what he is saying to smth i can understand and translate what i want to say into smth he can understand.

Why i'm bridging the gap instead of going low or no contact is because i am disabled and physically dependent on him atm, as soon as i get a chance to change that i will but atm im incapable of doing so. Ik this sitch is horrible for both of us but i literally have no other option than try to make it work atm/ctx

[little-cirrus-fibratus]

A genuine question for people with ASPD or/and NPD

People with ASPD (antisocial personality disorder) or/and NPD (narcissistic personality disorder), I am genuinely curious about what you believe is the core part of aspd and npd, and how you see the world. How does it feel to have these disorders? How do people treat you? How do you treat people? How can one understand how it must be like for you?

These disorders are VERY stigmatised. Even actual medical journals and sites perpetuate this stigmatisation, and there's this whole thing of "narcissistic abuse" or that all people with antisocial personality disorder are serial killers. I simply refuse to believe this, it's not nuanced enough, and I genuinely seek to understand. And maybe other people may find this thread of posts and also understand.

So people with npd/aspd, add on, explain anything you wish people knew about your disorder.

Coming from a fellow person with a highly stigmatised disorder (schizophrenia) who wishes to understand.

[doomer-soyjack]

I don't know why people get so defensive and morally superior when you point out the nature of human relationships is transactional. I'm not denying or diminishing your "love", I'm just pointing something out.

[cluster-b-culture-is]

(possibly) cluster B culture is wanting to stab urself in public to make sure everybody knows something's deeply wrong with you so that you get the spotlight, and at the same time hate being pitied or show any weakness or receive the consequences

.

[antisocialsharky]

Hello! I just wanted to say that I've been using some of your posts talking about ASPD to help me better understand it to write an OC I'm writing. I have a question though, do you mind talking about more symptoms of ASPD that I should keep in mind when writing her?

Hi! Very glad to hear that my posts have been helpful and its cool that you are aiming for good representation!

When it comes to how ASPD symptoms should be written and which ones should make it into literature, theres different opinions, so this is gonna go a bit beyond your question I guess? Just to get a roundabout view.

1. Recovery Position

• First thing to rly keep in mind is that the intensity of the symptoms, the way they present and the way the character would deal with them, absolutely depends on where they are in recovery.

• It also depends on what you understand as recovery, be that the reducing of overall symptoms so they are less often present, the act of reducing the harm that is done by your symptoms (ex: trough redirection, or actively learning prosocial behavior) or just learning to find a way to live in society the way you are. No ones view on recovery or the way they go about it (or if they decide not to) is in any way better or superior, but it is an aspect that does change how many symptoms you show in which way, so its important to think about when writing a character.

2. Covert/Overt Symptom Presentation

• Another thing to think about, depending on what fits into your story, is the question as to whether your character is very obviously antisocial, or whether they go about it in a more covert secret way. Can they control which symptoms they show when? Or are they lost to their impulses and emotions? Do they come from a background where hiding their symptoms was essential, or were they able/forced to present obviously?

• Theres also a more mixed presentation where some symptoms are more obvious and others are not, depending on stuff like what meets your needs best, how much control you have and whether or not you've done any active work on the symptoms yet, etc.

• Then you can also think about the personal opinion of your character on symptom presentation. Do they believe that they should get to just be themselves? Are they of the opinion that people just have to deal with their symptoms and accept them that way? Or do they think that they have to hide some symptoms in order to fit into society better? Have they potentially adopted some prosocial ways of thinking and model their presentation after that? Depending on what it is, it will obviously look different.

3. The Causes of their ASPD

• Depending on the type of trauma they went trough that made them develop ASPD, presentation will differ. Its highly individual of course, but theres some themes, like people who come from violent households often being violent themselves, people who were neglected struggling with the social aspects like empathy & remorse, people who were lied to/manipulated/berated all the time adopting similar manners, people who had to commit crimes and/or witnessed those often continuing to do so because its normal to them, etc.

• The other aspect is genetics, where certain tendencies can be given from parent to child or grandparent to grandchild, such as impulsive tendencies, the type of temper someone has, access (or denied access) to certain parts of the brain that are responsible for prosocial emotions, etc. Those genetics mix with the trauma and sometimes push the presentation in certain directions, so its a thing to keep in mind.

• Some CD/ASPD symptoms can also develop/be made worse trough bullying, intense experiences in childhood/teens, hanging around with people who engage in/normalize certain behaviors, etc. (ex: kids with delinquient tendencies who hang around other kids with those, may be more likely to develop that as a continous behavior). So its also worth thinking about who your character was around while they grew up, who influenced them how and what was normalized to them.

4. The Current DSM-V ASPD Criteria

• When it comes to the core symptoms of ASPD, theres 3 out of 7 DSM criteria points your character should meet. It doesn't matter which ones, but it has to be at least three! Your character should also be older than 18, have shown conduct disorder symptoms before they turned 15 and have their ASPD symptoms even in absence of other comorbidities, substances and/or episodes (Criterion B-D which I am not quoting, but thats it summed up)

• The 7 criteria points recognized in the DSM-V are (and I quote):

A. A pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of rights of others, occuring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:

1. Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors, as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are ground for arrest.

2. Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases or conning others for personal profit or pleasure.

3. Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead.

4. Irritability or aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults.

5. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others.

6. Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations.

7. Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated or stolen from another.

• Everything after "as indicated by" is an example of a possible presentation. The DSM-V acknowledges that there are other possible ways in which symptoms can show up.

5. The Alternative ASPD Model in the DSM-V

• This is not used to officially diagnose people with ASPD, but is one idea, as to how personality disorder classification could work in the future. It looks at the symptoms as dimensions, under which possible experiences could fall and mentions quite a few things the current criteria doesn't, so I'll quote it below as well:

A. Moderate or greater impairment in personality functioning, manifested by characteristic difficulties in two or more of the following areas:

1. Identity: Egocentrism, self esteem derived from personal gain, power or pleasure.

2. Self direction: Goal setting based on personal gratification, absence of prosocial internal standards, associated with failure to conform to lawful or culturally normative ethical behavior.

3. Empathy: Lack of concern for feelings, needs or suffering of others, lack of remorse after hurting or mistreating another.

4. Intimacy: Incapacity for mutually intimate relationships, as exploitation is primary means of relating to others, including by deceit and coercion, use of dominance or intimidation to control others.

B. Six or more of the following seven pathological personality traits:

1. Manipulativeness (an aspect of antagonism): Frequent use of subterfuge to influence or control others, use of seduction, charm, glibness, or ingratiation to achieve ones ends.

2. Callousness (an aspect of antagonism): Lack of concern for feelings or problems of others, lack of guilt or remorse about negative or harmful effects of ones actions on others, aggression, sadism.

3. Deceitfulness (an aspect of antagonism): Dishonesty and fraudulence, misrepresentation of self, embellishment or fabrication when relating events.

4. Hostility (an aspect of antagonism): Persistent or frequent angry feelings, anger or irritability in response to minor slights and insults, mean, nasty or vengeful behavior.

5. Risk taking (an aspect of disinhibition): Engagement in dangerous, risky and potentially self damaging activities, unnecessarily and without regard for consequences, boredom proneness and thoughtless initiation of activities to counter boredom, lack of concern for ones limitations and denial of the reality of personal danger.

6. Impulsivity (an aspect of disinhibition): Acting on the spur of the moment in response to immediate stimuli, acting on a momentary basis without a plan or consideration of outcomes, difficulty establishing and following plans.

7. Irresponsibility (an aspect of disinhibition): Disregard for - and failure to honor - financial and other obligations or commitments, lack of respect for - and lack of follow trough on - agreements and promises.

Note: The individual is at least 18 years of age.

6. Other Common Experiences

• Theres a few experiences that quite a few people with ASPD report, that have not explicitly made it into the criteria. Sometimes these are examples for certain symptoms and/or are implied, sometimes these have been studied but haven't been written as a requirement for diagnosis and sometimes these are not supported by science/still debated by science.

• Apathy, a total lack of emotion, overall muted emotions or having trouble to access certain emotions, is something some people with ASPD talk about a lot. There is no scientific consensus yet, as to whether this is an ASPD symptom. Some theories suggest it falls under PTSD (absence of positive emotions & tendency to experience negative ones and/or having dissociated away from the emotions and/or having put up a sort of non permanent barrier as a form of protection), depression (common comorbidity, anhedonia & apathy can both be part of it), other PDs (schizoid, borderline episodes, etc.) or something else entirely. While its not sure whether its caused by ASPD, or not, a lot of people with it seem to report differences in their capability to feel a full range of intense emotions.

• The criteria talks about aggressiveness and physical fights, which is not the only way in which this symptom seems to commonly present. Harming animals, homicidal ideation, dealing with aggressive thoughts & urges without actually acting on them, verbal aggression, taking out aggression on self or property, etc. are also often reported.

• The current criteria doesn't mention it at all and the alternative talks about a complete inability to form bonds, but community consensus seems to be, that while forming emotional bonds is harder & happens more rarely, it is still possible. The intensity differs (some describe the bond as a logical construct, some only do platonic bonds, some only do romantic bonds, some describe deep obsessiveness, etc.) as does the number of people they find themselves bonded with. Theres also a significant amount of people in the community that describe a phenamenon similar to BPDs FP (aka a bond to a person that is defined by the symptoms of the personality disorder).

• There is some debate on whether or not an absence of prosocial inner standards makes it impossible or more difficult to define personal morals and understand how morality works. Some people with ASPD say they have no difficulties, some report that they struggle with the understanding part, some say they struggle with upholding those norms and others struggle with both. It seems like ASPD could make it more difficult to understand and/or respect the way societies morals work for some, which makes room for conflict.

• Personality Disorders are what we call egosyntonic, which usually means that they are in alignment with what we as people think is the correct way to feel, think and act. This doesn't mean that its inherently impossible to change the way you think/feel/act and that recovery is impossible, but it may make it more difficult to break out of the patterns (if that is what one wants). Some people show little problems in this area, some need a lot of outer assistance and others either can't or don't want to change.

7. Other Things To Keep In Mind

• You should probably think about whether your character fits the psychopathy subtype & if yes which definition of it you want to use (theres different theories)

• ASPD can influence every aspect of your life, so it may interfere with things in such a roundabout way that you wouldn't even think about it at first (ex: Disregard for safety of self => Disregard for your own health => You get ill carelessly => You dont take ur meds responsibly, or put off a doctors visit for months/years => You end up with longterm damage => You don't treat it responsibly => You get more ill => Death. Which happens to ppl without ASPD too, but can indeed be a presentation of that symptom.). Additionally comorbdities interact & interfere with ASPD symptoms and may alter/add onto presentation!

• You could also always add the ASPD stigma into the mix and how your character responds to it/how it influences them. Does it make them not wanna recover? Does it make them wanna recover even more to prove everyone wrong? Are they trying to get into therapy but no therapist wants them? Is it on a court record and causing problems that way? Do they lose relationships/friendships? Does it change the way they see themselves or others? etc.

• The key with ASPD characters is not to just make them into good people or portray them as angels and also not to always make them into the cruel villain. The key is to show that they are an individual, a human being, a single example for what this disorder can present as. If you can somehow portray that the presentation of ASPD in your character is just how this specific character is and is not how the disorder inherently presents itself, you nailed it! Cus u'll have ASPDers who want to just stay the way they are and who are exactly what you'd imagine a cruel villain to be like, you have ASPDers who you couldn't ever distinguish from a prosocial person, cus they learned to blend in and you've got ASPDers who decide that they wanna do a 180 and behave in the most prosocial way possible and then you have everything in between and beyond. So as long as your character would meet criteria, as long as you're not spreading misinfo and as long as its clear that its just one example of a possible presentation, you're good in my opinion (but this is indeed just my opinion and others may disagree).

Note: If you need examples for the specific symptoms, you can ofc send another ask, this is more of a general overview of what exists, cus going into detail on each would make this post wayyy too long.

[titan-god-helios]

simply existing as neurodivergent is tiring.

no matter which it is, every neurodivergence comes with its own set of symptoms and traits that makes even sitting and trying to relax something that takes energy.

for me, my adhd makes it so that i have a CONSTANT inner monologue. and that "monologue" consists of SO much. it feels like there's a main monologue of my most prominent thoughts, another monologue in the background and another after that too, with music playing off in the distance, mental images flashing in and out and also having to stay present in the real world so i don't fuck everything up in real life. my brain is always on high speed and when it isn't there's still mental noise regardless from the monologue. and its fucking tiring. it makes my social battery lower than ever and means that i never truly get a moments' peace unless i superengineer my surroundings to force it. which again, takes energy.

if you add the fact that my autism connotes sensory issues, a baseline of anxiety for pretty much everything due to yk. uncertainty of situations, having to mask and be hypervigilant to keep up my masking etc, it becomes even more tiring. masking whilst being distracted in a conversation is even harder.

then my npd dogpiles essentially and makes it so there's a subsection of my inner monologue dedicated to screaming at me and mocking me or others all the time. that's fucking tiring.

i get intrusive thoughts. i disassociate a lot. my mood can change very quickly due to the emotional dysregulation that comes with my everything. that's tiring.

it feels like my brain is constantly doing its best to fuck with me at all times. and its doing a pretty damn good job at it.

that's not to mention other neurodivergences that other people may have such as did/osdd, schizospec disorders, cluster a, b and c personality disorders, down syndrome, dyslexia, dyspraxia, dysgraphia, dyscalculia, bipolar disorder, synaesthesia, intellectual disabilities, auditory processing disorders, anxiety disorders, depressive disorders, tourettes' syndrome, tic disorders, cerebral palsy, parkinsons', alexithymia (which i have and makes it exhausting to just. figure out how you feel at any given time and makes things such as giving consent much harder and lengthier) and so on

if you happen to have physical disabilities alongside neurodivergence, it's even fucking harder.

it's fucking hard. it's not a bed of roses, or doesn't only affect us when we're doing stuff. us sitting on the couch and trying to relax may take enormous amounts of effort that you simply do not see.

please be patient with us. we're trying our best.

[ur-all-fucking-idiots]

Serious question to 'normal' ppl:

Why do u talk to ppl?

To me it's a cure for boredom, but I've been told this isn't the case for most ppl and now I'm curious

[narcissisticpdcultureis]

aspd + questioning npd culture is "yeah i really seek admiration a whole lot but i don't NEED it" when in reality you do need it but you get really really mad when someone points it out and you want to cut them off

.

[hiraunia]

I don't have a PD but I do like learning about them, how they manifest and how pwPDs struggle and I just find cluster b to be so funny. Like I feel like Bpd, Hpd and Npd have so many similarities and it makes a lot of sense why they're in the "Dramatic and Erratic" cluster(As stupid as I find that description, and honestly the descriptions of all PD clusters to be). And then there's ASPD. Like here's this cluster full of disorders where they struggle with their senses of self and difficulty with their emotions, oh and here's 'Don't give a shit disorder'.

Like maybe I've been misinterpreting Aspd but from what I've read from pwAspd it feel more similar to Szpd and even Ppd than it does Hpd Npd and Bpd.

[dboi-ispissed]

I am not above spite

I am not above resentment

I will not be kind because the world refused to be

The world is cruel and so am I

[mightymelancholy]

A form only for those diagnosed or did the research and truly believed to have Antisocial Personality Disorder. This form does not require an email.

[narcbians]

When your friend who could understand you left so now youre stuck with people who will only demonize your traits ☠️

[cluster-b-culture-is]

Heavily suspected aspd culture is saying "[person who was even vaguely annoying] is so lucky I can't kill people with my mind" and meaning it wholeheartedly, but having everyone take it as a joke. It's not a joke. It's never been a joke.

.

[mistress-riddle]

do we think tom/voldemort ever experienced cost-sunk fallacy?

[vain-creature]

is it like… an inherent narcissistic trait that a person w NPD must be constantly manipulating and on edge and that every part of their life must be entrenched with the disorder?

I was thinking i might have it but unless in direct danger of vulnerability or being seen a certain way I just… chill? I’m not always on the lookout and manipulating and everything I do or don’t do isn’t always related or consciously related to it. Again, I’m just questioning so I might not be the best example of this, but I believe there are people with NPD who live “normal” lives, just with a disorder? People with diagnosed NPD who have friends and partners and family they’re not bent on manipulating for attention? That they like spending times with for the sake of it? And I’m sure there are people with NPD who have a job that has nothing to do with their disorders, or is even in direct conflict with it (for example something that draws little attention but that they like doing)? Because people with NPD still have a conscience and likes and dislikes.

Even discarding my own possibly non-NPD experience, it’s still weird the way people who have it are framed. And it is very characteristic of this personality disorder, and not any other (maybe aspd? i’m not sure).

For example, I was just reading an article on NPD, and the (clearly biased) writer said: a covert narcissist will pretend to be shy for attention. And I was like: or maybe they are shy? why can’t they just genuinely be shy? NPD is a disorder that affects people, not a strict way to be that controls every part of the person. People with NPD are still people and they still have personality, and they can be shy. Maybe the vulnerable narcissist is actually shy and quiet? Instead of presenting as such for attention.

I swear this view of the disorder is so stupid, I can’t believe it is the shared consensus.

Yeah, I think believing that every pw/npd is inherently a manipulator is extremely biased. Just because someone has NPD it doesn't mean they are a master manipulator, and depending on what it is comorbid with it can look really differently (eg. autism, like with me)(and don't get me started about how hard it can be to even notice that what you are doing/thinking/feeling is not really normal, especially with comorbidities!)

The disorder is inherently a part of how I view the world, sure, but it doesn't cause me distress 100% of the time, every second, every day. In my opinion the diagnostic criteria are pretty ambiguous (I am one of the "takes everything literally unless hinted otherwise" people so I went "well I am not doing x ALL the time so I don't fit the criteria")

I, personally, resort to manipulative actions when I am feeling like my ego is in danger, and in most cases it is, as I call it, a knee-jerk reaction, instinctual, automatic, subconscious. A lot of epithets, I know, but I want to convey the thing clearly sksksk. Even when I do it consciously, it is not malicious - my main goal is, always, first and foremost, preserving my ego, preserving my image. I don't deny that I may have hurt others through my actions, but I don't want it to happen. I don't like hurting others because it also endangers my ego, after all. Being a good person is very important to me, and both external and internal validation are really important for my mental well-being. If I went left and right hurting others it would be really damn hard to get that external validation!

So, when nothing like that is happening, I am well-adjusted, I would say, at least in the npd range. Do I still think of other people inferior and myself superior? Yeah. But I also have people my mind considers equal to me, people I genuinely enjoy spending time with. (Also like. just because I think someone is inferior it doesn't mean I treat them badly?????? Idk where that notion came from in anti-npd folk, but like in my eyes me treating people I find inferior nicely is actually proof how good of a person I am so like???)

Because of knowing I have NPD I have started noticing when I am manipulative, and, just like you said, I have at least the semblance of conscience, so I really try to restrict that. Not always works out, but at least I am trying. Not every pw/NPD is evil and malicious, after all.

Also, like, most people need some form of attention to be healthy, fishing for it has no negative value.

There seems to be this specific bias appearing when people write or generally perceive pw/NPD -> every little action, every trait, every word, is, actually, a well-orchestrated plan to manipulate or otherwise fool others. Well, that's straight up wrong. There's so much diversity in the world, it's not that improbable that someone with NPD could be shy, for example. We are not cartoon villains rubbing our hands together at every possibility to lie and deceive!

If the perception of NPD was not.... what it currently is :/// I would have known way earlier! At least for me it was a random coincidence that I learned stuff about NPD that was not the evil black-eyed demon from pop-psychology. I was extremely unaware of all the ways it manifested in me and now I can actually realize that my feelings and thoughts are actually often skewed.

There is always one article I like consulting about things NPD, NPD Basics from McLean Hospital, which outlines that current diagnostic criteria are... well. Really biased towards the grandiose side of NPD

The NPD diagnosis in DSM has been criticized for being one-sided and relying primarily on external socially and interpersonally striking and provocative features. As such, it has failed to capture the full range of narcissistic personality pathology, especially the internal vulnerability and insecurity characterized by severe self criticism, insecurity, confusion, shame, aloneness, and fear. Instead, the diagnosis has primarily emphasized external characteristics related to boasted grandiosity, and obviously adverse interpersonal functioning. Important aspects of the patient’s internal distress and painful experiences of self-esteem fluctuations, identity diffusion and emotional dysregulation have not been included.

Contrary to the external confidence, arrogance, and insensitivity, people with pathological narcissism and NPD tend to struggle with a shifting and conflicting sense of self and identity. Underneath a more noticeable self-praising or self-enhancing outward facade they can be excessively self-critical and judgmental.

Both clinical and empirical studies have confirmed that emotional distress, interpersonal vulnerability, a sense of inadequacy, need for control, avoidance, and fear, pain, and anxiety are important facets of narcissistic personality functioning. Co-occurrence and fluctuations between self-enhancing grandiosity and self-depreciating vulnerability are also present in narcissistic pathology. Typical indications of narcissistic vulnerability include inferiority and insecurity, avoidance, shyness, hidden aggressive reactions, shame, and persistent self-negativity. Paradoxically, hidden excessive self-negativity can also serve empowering, protective, and controlling functions. Additional characteristics frequently found in patients with NPD are perfectionism and high standards accompanied by self- and other-directed criticism, as well as by preoccupation with fear of not meeting standards and of failing. In addition, chronic envy, rage, boredom, and emptiness can co-occur with hyper-vigilance and defensive emotional reactivity, especially aggressivity, criticism, and dismissiveness.

^ Three interesting fragments. Notice the connection between traits associated with grandiosity with underlying issues associated more with covert npd -> at least in my experience they are two sides of the same coin! That's why I don't necessarily identify with one or the other, because depending on the situation, social norms and people I am with, I may come off as both a grandiose and covert narcissist! The line is not as rigid as it may seem, I would even say it can often be nonexistent.

mclean.org/npd-provider-guide

^ a link for those interested! It's a really good read and I recommend it to anyone questioning if they may have NPD

:)