#I hate this ANTI/PRO-ship rhetoric.
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gayerthanyoulleverbe · 9 days ago
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I'm genuinely so sick of people trying to rationalize that incest fanworks normalize and encourage real life incest.
I don't see the same argument being used for violence. I literally torture my characters, does that make me a violent crazed sadist hell bent on making people suffer? No! So stop using the argument for incest.
Media representation of Bad Things happening to FICTIONAL CHARACTERS, does not inherently curate spaces for those things to happen, so stop pretending like it does.
"x ship is normalizing incest-"
Buddy
If game of thrones hasn't normalized incest by now (pulling over 10 million views in the 7th season alone) then a small fandom ship most certainly won't
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myfandomrealitea · 7 months ago
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okay, so- this is coming from someone who really hasn't engaged in fandom discourse, especially regarding shipping and such. I dearly hope this doesn't come across as bait or troll, I'm genuinely curious and want to learn. apologies for the possibly-dumb question, but I really just need to ask-
what is proshipping? and what are 'antis'?
you know how it is, when you ask around you always get a biased answer one way or another. "proshippers are pedos" "proshippers all condone incest" "proship Bad and if you interact You Are Bad" (i think these are 'anti' points of view? am i using that term right? that's the rhetoric ive mainly heard). but despite all of that, i don't know if ive ever actually gotten a straight answer as to just.. what it factually is. because it doesn't feel like the sort of thing that you can boil down to insults or accusations or whatnot. it's all just very confusing to me, especially because i come from a place that essentially just told me to avoid like the plague and never look back. sorry, this became a bit of a ramble, lol. thank you so much in advance, i hope i'm not being a bother or insulting with this ^^;
The modern term; 'proship' (s.a; 'proshipping' and 'profiction') is an evolution of an earlier fandom acronym known as: 'SALS.'
Ship And Let Ship
SALS was one of the earliest fandom adoptions and interpretations of the concept of not bullying others for what they shipped or their fandom interests, and not trying to control or dictate what was "allowed" to be shipped or enjoyed. The most notable origin of SALS was during the early years of accessible fandom via Star Trek, and the present homophobia and misogyny in a largely male-dominated community.
As woman became more involved in fandom spaces, the presence of 'other' ships and pairings began to increase. M/M, F/F that wasn't purely for sexual gratification, and M/O and F/O (where 'O' is Other) pairings were popular amongst women, much as they still are today.
Not only did the presence of women in a "male space" receive a not insignificantly negative reaction, so too did them filling the fandom space with their shipping content. Now; sexism and misogyny and homophobia were not entirely to blame. Again as is still very much present today, people simply Did Not Like Certain Ships or Characters. And as they still do today, they'd spread hate about them and to the people who did enjoy them.
Thus: the birth of SALS.
(In other words: I like what I like and it has fuck all to do with you. Shut up and move on.)
Back then, SALS was mostly contained to just that. Ships and characters. Since back in that era 'taboo topics' and 'sexual content' were still pretty covert, people weren't exactly arguing the merits of incest in public forums and at conventions.
However, as all things do, the internet evolved. Society evolved. Media evolved. And so too did 'SALS' evolve in keeping with the new culture and subjects present in fandom spaces.
Suddenly it wasn't just ships and characters to be advocated for. It was themes. Subjects. Kinks. Plots. The more things people found to enjoy, so too did the more things people found to hate.
'Proship' is actually grammatically pro-ship. As in; in support of shipping. This is why I always state that the modern conceptions of proshipping would more accurately be coined profiction. It is no longer just about ships, but fiction as a whole.
However; the core value and sole inherent point of being proship, SALS, profiction and so forth remains exactly the same:
[I/We] believe you have no right to harm others over the [ship/content] they create or consume and [I/we] do not have the right to dictate what is or is not allowed in fandom spaces.
That's it. Don't harass people for what they enjoy fictionally. Don't try to force them into not enjoying or being able to enjoy it.
Of course, the modern adaption varies wildly in terms of 'additional values' thanks to the evolution of the term and what it can encompass. However, there is certainly no obligation to:
Create or consume content you are uncomfortable with.
Create or consume content regarded as 'taboo' or 'triggering.' Such as incest.
Be involved with any aforementioned content beyond turning a blind eye if its not your thing.
Inherently, anyone who says they're 'neutral' on the matter but firmly believes in minding their own business is just a proshipper refusing to use the label if you're taking the term solely at its core value.
In terms of 'antis' they're just the antithesis of the above. Antis are people who generally believe that fiction is irrevocably tied in with who you are, what you believe/condone, and that real-life limitations and values should also apply to fiction.
Although, its is heavy debated and it wildly varies per individual to the degree this is taken.
(E.g: some 'antis' believe you should only write rape fic if you are a victim using it as catharsis or education. Other 'antis' believe there's absolutely no excuse or reason to write rape fic at all.)
Antis typically believe that enjoyment or being invested in content which is regarded as harmful or illegal in real life is morally unsound and reflects that you're a bad or morally unsound person.
Although I disagree, I can honestly say in some aspects I do understand this reasoning. I don't agree, but I do understand why people may come to that conclusion.
As with proshippers, antis vary from people who simply ignore and block content they don't agree with to radicals.
'Anti' is again a prefix. Although modern adoption of the term uses it as a singular signifier, it would grammatically be anti-[fandom], anti-[character], ect. As was commonly used in the past.
The rhetoric that all proshippers are pedophiles or support incest is common-spread and effective 'anti' propaganda. Similar to how so many people believe 'proship' inherently signifies that you must create and/or consume taboo or darker content.
It doesn't.
¹ Proship may also be accurately termed as simply: 'anti-harassment.' ² Its important to note the 'definition' of these terms may vary wildly depending on the individual. However, detailed above is the most historical use and evolution of the terms and their definitions.
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crobones · 4 months ago
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there does in fact exist a community in this fandom that doesn't want to police your every opinion. it may seem like we're few and far in between, but we're here.
the (usually internalyzed) misogynists, the racists, the ableists, the homophobes, biphobes, garden-varity transphobes, TERFs, and SWERFS are very, very vocal. some might be in disguise, or they might treat you nicely with a very much "you're one of the good ones" kinda rhetoric, all while shouting for everyone and their mothers to hear about how everyone else hates them and they're the victim. these people label themselves pro and anti alike, so it can get confusing.
i just want people to know, no one deserves to be made to feel bad or that they're "wrong" or "stupid" for not believing fandom dogma. ship it, don't ship it, make it t4t, make it gay, kill God - who cares. now, there is nuance to every situation, but if someone says you're making fan works wrong, they're usually the ones with the problem. creativity doesn't have a strict set of rules, that kinda defeats the purpose lol
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sophieinwonderland · 8 months ago
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(Might as well get this reply to a syscourse post about me out of my drafts too.)
You hit the nail on the head when you said "if it's not fun" that you don't see the point, even if it also has to do with what you believe you're doing to help. You're here to have fun firstly, and if the work of eradicating bigotry isn't fun, you're not all that interested.
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I've been here for years having the same discussions, trying to help people when I can and do my best to help grow the community and counter misinformation where I see it.
And there are a lot of days when it can feel exhausting.
I'm one person. And I'm arguably not even an entire one of those. I don't front nearly as much as my host, and most of the time I get ends up dedicated to this.
So yes, I do want some of the time I spend on this blog to be on topics I enjoy.
And nitpicking this just feels gross and manipulative.
I don't particularly care about the anti-psych conversation. I think we all agree there are significant flaws in the psych system. It just seems to me that your plan to fix those flaws would be destroying what's there and rebuilding it completely, where I would prefer the Ship of Theseus approach of replacing it bit by bit.
I don't generally use spoon theory much, but I don't know a better way to put it than saying I don't have the spoons to hash this out. Or at least, it's not somewhere I think would be beneficial to dedicate them towards. 🤷‍♀️
The heart of deradicalization is compassion. To disentangle bigotry from big, messy emotions, you have to approach it from an emotional standpoint.
Absolutely! This is 100% true! If you want to deradicalize, this is the best approach.
When it works, anyway. Thing is, I tried this approach early on. Spent a couple months talking to an anti-endo. I honestly thought we were on good terms and that I was making progress. We had been exchanging questions about our own experiences with plurality.
Then when I was banned, they turned around and cheered along with most of the anti-community.
Even then, I wasn't going to completely give up on compassion. I tried more. But the thing about notoriety, whether deserved or not, is that it immediately poisons any attempt at genuine conversation. By this point, I had already gotten a rather undeserved reputation among anti-endos, and if I tried communicating publicly with one, it wouldn't be long before they got an anon or reblog telling them how bad I supposedly was.
And while I feel my reputation was undeserved at the time, I realized that if I would never be able to convince them, I might as well play into my role as the boogeyman anti-endos want me to be.
No, calling anti-endos worse than parasites and an evil hate group is probably not going to deradicalize them. But they've already been fed so many lies about me personally and are primed to disregard anything I say anyway. Compassion from me won't work.
You know what I think this tactic does do, though? I think it shifts the middle ground for people who can't make a decision. Many people have a natural attraction to the center. It's a logical fallacy, but this too is rooted in emotions.
If the spectrum is "endos are scientifically impossible and are hurting trauma survivors and you're ableist for supporting them," and just "endogenic systems are actually real and valid," what do you think "neutral" means in such an environment? Because to me, it seems like centrism lands in favor of the anti-endo when these are the extremes presented to neutrals.
But amp up pro-endo rhetoric to match that of anti-endos, replying with "anti-endos are an evil anti-science hate group bent on hurting a marginalized community for existing," and now the center alignment shifts a bit more in the pro-endo direction.
And to be clear, this isn't far off from how I've always felt. The only things that's changed was a willingness to say it out loud. But I don't actually need to convince everyone this is true. I just need to shift what appears to be the moderate position to something that would actually be more moderate and advantageous to us.
...
And that brings me to one final gambit I'm making.
That I'm am going to lose people with these idea. That there will be some pro-endos who will be pushed away from this blog by me labeling anti-endos as a hate group or by my tactics in the way I respond to them.
These pro-endos will shift more towards moderate stances.
And that, IMO, can be useful too. Because it positions them to do what I can't, where they'll appear more approachable and "reasonable" to anti-endos. That allows these systems to do what I can't and be able to connect with people on the other side.
There is a reason why I will often turn a blind eye to pro-endos who are saying horrible things about me, personally, and just let them carry on. (As long as they aren't attacking other members of the community.) It's because, whether they are with me or against me, as long as they're pro-endo, they're still useful in spreading our message.
And I'll admit, this might be a dangerous play. Push people too far, and they might go straight to the anti-endo side.
But... I don't see that as too much of a risk... despite playing into the boogeyman persona anti-endos gave me, I have lines I don't cross. I'm not sending threats. I'm not saying people deserve to die. I'm not going on to positivity posts to start fights like Hyaena-Bites did back in the day. And if I see pro-endos crossing these lines, I do my best to rein them in or call them out.
I've intentionally established myself as an extremist in my views and rhetoric, certainly. But not in my actions.
Finally, for all that you position yourself as an expert in psychology, ironically, you yourself are acting in a way that serves to further radicalize anti-endos. Rather than learning and engaging with genuine, known, deradicalization tactics, you are the perfect "enemy" for the genuinely malicious anti-endos to use to convince the ones indoctrinated into thinking they're doing good that pro endos are dangerous.
To be clear, I've never positioned myself as an expert in psychology. I'm a girl with a blog who did a couple free psychology courses and has read a few papers in a very specialized area of interest.
But I think this line of reasoning is silly. Anti-endos are always going to be able to find targets to vilify and make into an enemy.
I just figure that if their enemy is inevitably going to be someone, it might as well be me. I think I'm better able to take harassment than many others in this community.
Putting a giant bullseye on my chest isn't an accident. It's an intentional decision.
But also... am I really? Am I really the "perfect enemy" to convince anti-endos that the endogenic community is dangerous?
Because guess what? There are a lot of pro-endos out there who take things too far. There was the doxxing incident a couple years ago. There are people who send death threats. There are people who send gore. There are genuinely abusive people who have been in various endogenic communities. That's not a problem with the community. It's just a fact that every large community is going to have bad people in it.
And then there's me who... is not always totally polite? Comes off a bit strong? Calls anti-endos a hate group? Calls them evil?
Do you really think this actually compares to the worst things in the community?
Does this really seem "dangerous" to you by comparison?
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3dsmade · 1 year ago
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updated post found here
☆ ;; Sunday Paraphile
[pt; sunday paraphile, end pt]
a term i wanted to make after some things happened with the first creator of the "sunset para" term.
a sunday paraphile is:
- anti-contact
- pro-recovery, but against forced recovery and harmful recovery
- anti-radqueer, but accepting of former radqueers and survivors of radqueer rhetoric
- ship-unaligned, because i just don't want to fucking deal with people asking
- anti-transid, but supportive of those with biid, transrace adoptees [which is the original use of transracial!], alterhumans/otherkin/therians, and oculoid identities
- pro-contradictory labels, mspec lesbians/gays, xenogenders, and neopronouns
- supportive of the big three
also if i see any of you guys using my fucking term while harassing people, i will make you leave. if it's not punk, it doesn't live here.
emoji code is ⚱️🍐 unless someone says it's already taken lol i can't find a masterlist of para emoji codes-
also you can be both a sunday and sunset para. i genuinely don't give a shit. this one's just without the bullshit surrounding it. it's especially for those who don't connect with sunset para because of what others associate it with.
also if you're gonna give hate, do it without anon. it's funnier lol.
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confessyourship · 3 days ago
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I'm getting really tired of Anti's pretending their open to hearing us out on how we use this to cope (in the case of me doing it) and then turning around and using whatever info I provide to harass and target me..
I recognize that sending hate back is going to add fuel to the fire, so I don't, but I really honestly wish that Anti's would move platforms someplace else. Tumblr is meant for the freaks and weirdos.
Also like, I'm ngl anti's are just as bad as the religious bigots that tell me I can't be nonbinary, or lesbian, because I'm going to hell and I deserve it for sinning. They're just as bad. So seeing people defending them here, esp as an ex anti, is really upsetting.
I agree don't harass people but that's the basics of proship. Any pro ship. Don't be a dick, you know? Anti's being procensorship, means y'all are supporting all censorship because you can't have just a little. Y'all are gonna face the music in your community when queer folks get edited out, or people use your rhetoric to justify bigotry.
Like we of all people know best you don't need to agree, or support, everything. Just curate your experience & move on. No bigot behaviour required.
Idk if it'd be possible to tag the asks that support antis that get sent in here, but if possible, please I beg </3
🩷
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olderthannetfic · 2 years ago
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So some tumblr user just suggested that pro-shippers are lying when they suggest toxic ships are on the pro-ship side, and that the real pro-ship ships are pedophilia and incest ships.
Am I correct in assuming this is a very wrong assertion? Like it sounds very much like a lie, like they're telling their opponents what they can and can't care about, and I think putting pedophilia and incest in the same category is weird because incest isn't a form of abuse, just a cultural taboo.
Like comparing the two and contrasting pedophilia with toxic ships as though they're separate things is very telling, because it shows that to them, hating pedophilic ships is less about the fact that pedophilic relationships are abusive and more about the fact that it's a taboo form of sex.
Especially since they later describe a teen her x mentor ship as "fucking weird" which seems like a very morally-neutral way to see it. Not "gross" or "creepy" or "abhorrent", just weird. "Weird" is what the Cars franchise is. But if you're this morally neutral to the topic, then why is pedophilia crossing a line? What line is it crossing if it's not a moral one? The answer is that, yet again, this person is only concerned with the fact that it's a taboo sex thing. The term weird is a direct admittance of that, that the first thing this person feels like complaining about in terms of this concept is that it's "weird".
Also I imagine there are a lot of cases that would prove this wrong. Like Sarah Z said once that some anti's were mad that she liked a toxic ship because they thought she was an anti and considered her defending this ship as confirming she was not an anti.
--
I mean, this is antis: "pedo" can mean "consensual teenage making out between 16-year-olds" or "I'm delusional about Lance, Keith, and Shiro's ages".
But yes, in general, most of the rhetoric around the proship vs. anti stuff is coming from hysterical antis fighting with imaginary enemies, and the rest is coming from hypocrites who call themselves proshippers but really aren't.
The general concept of being "proship" is supposed to mean that you don't think fiction and reality have a 1:1 relationship. Video games don't turn you into a spree killer, etc. etc. And, as a consequence, you think it's none of anyone's business what someone ships or what they like in fiction, and we should all just calm down and let people like things.
It does not indicate that you like anything dark or controversial yourself. It's a stance on bullying and thought crimes and censorship.
Personally, I tend to say that I'm anti-censorship and that I don't believe in thought crimes since the term 'proshipper' is so thoroughly ruined by people who go "Yes, except for [thingI don't like]".
Sarah Z is a bully who tries to have it all ways. She sounds good on the surface but is far too concerned with looking cool to the mainstream and being A Mature Adult Now, You Guys.
Her attack on that queer + proship hannibal pin with the pink triangle is just embarrassing. Learn your queer history, Sarah, or shut the fuck up. The real adults are talking.
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the-siberian-wolf · 8 months ago
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I am sorry but I hate when some groups try to control the rhetoric and try to seem better than they are.
Proship doesn't mean anti-harassment. Harassment can come from anyone. They are just lying to people who don't know anything about proshipping, so they get on their side. If someone needs to lie to appeal to strangers, it's because they have something to hide.
Let's stick to its meaning. Proship means allowing any kind of ship, no matter which characters are involved or the circumstances.
That's the definition. I don't like categorizing things as "problematic", it sounds childish. And even if I don't like proshippers, I prefer the truth above everything. The "pro" doesn't come from "problematic".
Remember: harassment can come from anyone, and claiming that proship means anti-harassment is manipulation and lying. No proshipper, antishipper or whatever guarantees anything. If someone harasses you, it's not because of their stand in the proshipping discourse, it's because they wanted an excuse to be bad people.
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kuramirocket · 2 years ago
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Tw: for death threats and suibaiting
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Remind me again how antis are supposed to be good and morally superior people. This is not just "ship discourse." Antis literally target, bully, harass, stalk, doxx, and suibait proshippers over fictional content. Idc, how disgusting or distasteful you find some fictional content. This type of abusive behavior is never okay.
It's always antis I see with so much hate and violence. When proshippers talk about antis it's never with this much competent, anger or hate. There may be some bad apples as with all communities, but proshippers in general want to be left alone to enjoy their fandom and online experiences.
This is why people who view themselves "above" and more "mature" over the proship and anti "discourse" should actually learn about these communities and topics.
Antis are very abusive. There is multiple evidence of countless behavior such as the ones shown above. And they appear everyday in the proship tags (mostly due to tumblr's tagging system) but regardless, again, such pro violence and suibaiting is not okay.
It's not hard to just put a simple dni if it bothers you that much or just block and filter things and people. You will have to continuously do this and it's tiring I know. It happens to me all the time where things I may not want to see pop up. Just keep curating your internet experience. Do this without telling literal people and sometimes minors at that to literally kill themselves. If you spread so much verbal hate and pro violent rhetoric you're not the good person you think you are.
All these tags came from one anti post and all from different users. This really is just the normal abusive behavior from antis. Rarely, do they advocate to not harass other people or actually post anything helpful to actually protect people online such as this post I made:
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sableraven · 7 months ago
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What are the issues of racism that are within the proship communities? Do you have any examples of things that are widespread talking points that are racist and why? /I am being genuine here sorry if it doesn't come across that way ;;
There aren’t any widespread talking points that are racists. It’s more like the tendency of proshippers to either invalidate or dismiss any concerns of racism within fandoms that fans of color has. It is sometimes dismissed as “anti rhetroic” or people being “pro-censorship” when all that fan is doing is trying to raise awareness of racial biases that fandoms tend to have or that is prominent in media. Half of it is gets viewed as being “too political” and its like your feelings are invalidated in favor for white fans who use fandoms to escape. Like I used media to escape too, but its hard to when I get not go on the internet and see fans being racists about characters of colors or treating fans of colors as outsiders. I just wish there was more acknowledgment and care about these topics rather it all being thrown as anti behavior when criticism of media always existed, especially when it comes to bigotry.
I guess a more specific example is the Star Wars fandom. Since Disney made the new trilogy, there’s always been controversy, but racism around it has gotten extremely worse. I got told by one proshipper that my interpretation of the anger around the new trilogy is because of old fans hating the new material and Disney is bad at handling it (which is mostly true with Disney), but I mentioned the whole debacle of Finn and him being a stormtropper and the same proshipper kept trying to act like the hate was anything, but racism. Then went on to say, “well I never witness any of that, but I have seen people hate it because stormtroppers were confirmed to look like something else.” Which is a weird take and purposefully ignores like every new controversy that appears in the Star Wars fandom related to racism.
Or discussing racial biases that exist in how fandoms treat characters of color in terms of shipping. Like it is proven that characters of colors are rarely the center of attention in fanart and fanfiction and white fans have a tendency to avoid shipping that character with another prominent white character. No one is saying people can’t ship that or that they HAVE to ship that character of color, but it gets treated as “anti rhetoric” when its just people venting frustration over racial biases in fandoms. I have seen proshippers being allowed to vent about being accused of racism by antis (which some of the allegations can be ridiculous by the antis and lies), but talking about racism that exist in fandoms and not directly targeting one person is seen as “politicizing” fandoms and you being a fandom police. Like no, its an observation and people of color are allowed to interact with the media however they want, just like white proshippers are allowed to do whatever they want.
Also to the anon, I’m not attacking you. I know you are being genuine, just explaining, so sorry if the language comes across as accusatory to you. I’m not, just a little fired up with this topic because it’s been something I’ve observed for a while and wish it was talked about more. Obviously, not ALL proshippers are like this, but there are some who are a little too far down on the “any criticism is procensorship” which is not fair when it comes to valid criticism.
Additional edit; there is an unfortunate rise of “anti woke” behavior in proship whenever elements of race is brought up and treating it with sensitivity. The amount of well-meaning white authors just asking questions if its okay to write a character of color a certain way and what’s appropriate or not, then proshippers get pissy and calling it “censorship” and telling said white author to write whatever they want and don’t listen to haters. If a person wants to educate themselves on how to write characters of color properly to avoid offending, LET THEM! It’s not censorship and its weird to equate wanting non stereotypical characters of color as censorship. It’s why the publishing industry has sensitivity training. Be okay with being told no sometimes if it’s not your space to do so. It reeks of white entitlement if you’re upset at receiving criticism and not being allowed to do whatever you want. You’re on the internet. The same way you tell antis if on them to not curate their space and should be prepared to see triggering shit online, you will also be criticized online especially if you post art
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abattre · 18 days ago
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Hi how are u doing?🌸 I was wondering do you agree with the statement that us Sasuke fans tend to exaggerate things and unnecessarily hate on too many characters from Naruto? I would love to know your opinion!
Hi !! I'm doing alright, thank you ^_^
Hmm well it's true to an extent that some really hardcore stans can take things too far, both in regards to over-interpretation and their criticisms of the other characters. That's sort of just common-place in any fandom though, I don't think it's a particular characteristic of Sasuke fans. The Naruto fandom in general tends to be extremely polarising when it comes to the issue of favourite characters; it's one of the most vitriolic fan spaces I've ever seen, so in comparison I don't think Sasuke fans are any better or worse really. From my experience, the pro-Sasuke sector's actually pretty small. There's some misogynistic rhetoric that I see here and there towards Sakura when people do commentary on her, but I think that's a regular occurrence in every part of the fandom. Anyway, a lot of the fanbase doesn't really get into the anti-Konoha stuff, so I guess our criticisms of the narrative and the rhetoric can seem far-fetched to them, especially when we debate the complacency of other characters in the system. Most of the actual hate I see stems from shipping stuff though. The war going on there is,,, intense, and I don't have a stake in any side so I just ignore it lol.
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squaloropera · 1 year ago
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alright, I was originally gonna make this as a comic but I’m really busy so I can’t manage that. I swear, this is my last anti-fujoshi post and then we’ll be back to our regularly scheduled inane nonsense.
firstly, I’ve seen a lot of people saying that they dislike the term ‘fujoshi’ to describe these people because of its misogynistic origins. I find this to be reasonable, so I will be referring to them as maiali pervertiti instead. It’s Italian! Hope y’all like it xx That out of the way, let’s begin.
I have put real, genuine, actual research into this. I scoured maiali pervertiti blogs to find their arguments, their mindsets, their justifications. As far as I could find, there are four main arguments. These being the following: ‘It’s just fiction, not reality’, ‘Hating us is misogynistic’ ‘hating us is transphobic/homophobic’ and ‘hating us is racist’. I will be unpacking each of these, looking at them from both perspectives, and explaining why exactly they’re flawed perspectives. Hopefully, a properly researched and informed take on this will help to clear the waters.
Let’s start with the first take. The ever-quoted ‘it’s just fiction, not reality’. This is an argument you’ll find in a lot of places, mostly in any place which is in support of questionable things being treated as erotic. Pro ships and pro-shippers also love to tote this. Now, on its surface this argument seems logical. However it starts to fall apart when you think about it critically. When we consider how the brain works, you’ll see what I mean. To be concise, the human mind slowly accepts things the more it’s exposed to justifications for them, regardless of how reasonable those justifications are. It associates a bad thing with ‘but nevermind, it’s fine’ and you stop feeling shame or regret over time. This is why you’ll often see lolicons say downright atrocious things about child characters- they’ve justified it for so long that they don’t see a problem with it.
Now, on the ‘it doesn’t affect reality’ claim, let’s look at other groups for this. Think about how many studies have been done saying that men who watch rape porn are more likely to become rapists. Think of all the people raised on the ‘I can fix him’ mentality on tv growing up to get in bad relationships or romanticise abuse under the idea that they can make an abuser better by loving him. It’s no secret of society that, actually, fiction does affect reality. The most concise, albeit silly way I’ve heard it put was ‘But you’re still jacking off to it. It’s affecting your dick and balls’. And I think that sums it up.
Next, let’s look at the ‘If you hate us you’re misogynistic’ claim. The mentality behind this claim is that women in Japan were referred to as ‘rotten girl’ for liking yaoi and bl, and to continue that rhetoric of not liking them is the continuation of misogyny. Again, this is a take that seems logical right up until you pick it apart. First we have to understand that the reason these men were calling these women rotten was because they disapproved of them exploring their sexuality and reading erotic content at all. They don’t hate women for reading gay porn, they hate women for reading porn period. The gay people criticising maiali pervertiti on tumblr aren’t hating them for the same reason. We don’t hate you for reading porn, read all the porn you’d like, we just want you to stop fetishising us. The difference is in the context; the men who were shaming Japanese women were shaming them for exploring their sexualities, were shaming you for treating an entire minority of people like they’re a porn category and for spreading gross, abusive content of mlm because you think it’s hot. It’s also important to note that Japanese women mostly started reading yaoi and bl because of the culture toward female sexuality in Japan. They couldn’t read erotica of straight couples, or they’d be seen as perverts. They couldn’t read wlw erotica, or they’d be seen as lesbians and shamed. Their only option for exploring their sexuality became mlm erotica. You, Lindsey from California, do not share this same issue.
Next we have the ever-irritating ‘If you hate us, you’re a transphobe’ argument.
*deep, deep sigh*
stay with me, fellow trans achillians. We can get through this. This argument is based in the idea that transmascs, specifically mlm transmascs, might read yaoi to explore their genders through sexual content. Unfortunately, exploring your gender through erotica and having a fetish are two different things. I personally did explore my gender through gay sexual content. Mostly fanfiction and mental fantasy, but with the odd fanart or comic sprinkled in there for flavour. The difference is that I never had a fetish for it. Most maiali pervertiti seem to argue with a very subtle straw man by implying that reading mlm content is the same as reading the gross rape porn yaoi that ‘fujoshi’ spaces are steeped in. This is not the case- there is a clear divide. I personally consumed actual, healthy content of gay sex. To go further with this argument, I actually think it’s actively harmful to perpetuate the idea that young trans people struggling with their gender should be exploring it through the things that are spread in fujoshi spaces. I’ve read some pf this stuff mostly by accident or against my will and that shit should not be associated in a young trans person’s mind with their gender. It isn’t safe.
Next we have ‘it’s homophobic to hate us’ which is definitely. A take. The rhetoric here is that by hating on the fetishisation consumption of yaoi, you’re really just hating gay men.
this is just… can I drop the nuance voice here? It’s bullshit. It’s gross bullshit. Gross, steaming, cowpat bullshit. Okay, nuance voice back up, let’s explore. maiali pervertiti, please understand that it’s mostly gay people who don’t like you. This is, again, a straw man argument. They’re trying to yell homophobia so they can ignore the real criticisms. The problem isn’t the homosexuality, my dear sweet perverted little fucking weirdos, it’s the rape porn and incest and abuse. Just read normal fucking mlm content I’m begging you.
Finally, we have the ‘it’s racist to hate us’ argument. This is an example of what I like to call ‘the firemen diversion’. This name comes from an example where a person might take the statistic of their being higher fatality risk the more firemen walk into a burning building, and then using it as an argument to suggest that it’s dangerous to call the fire brigade if there’s a fire. There’s a tiny nugget of reasonable argument in there, but it’s backing up a complete and utter bullshit lie.
This is basically what this argument is. The idea here is that the term ‘fujoshi’ was originally a reclaimed slur, and that westerners are changing it to degrade women again and are therefore misunderstanding the actual language behind it.
Now, this is based in a little bit of truth. Westerners do, in all fairness, misunderstand the term. I can’t speak for the reclamation of the slur, considering how I don’t know if that’s true, but I do know that the way it’s used has been quite incorrect a lot of the time. That’s the true bit. The rest of the argument, however, is nonsensical. While yes, some people misunderstand the word ‘fujoshi’, it doesn’t mean that the criticism of the culture (especially the culture in the western world) is racist. Please, don’t cry racism when you see people asking not to be fetishised. You will end up making the actual movement against anti-Asian hate crimes (which have increased in recent years, need I remind you) look less credible. Once again, I am asking allies to shut the fuck up talking for the minorities they claim to represent while being batshit insane x
TL;DR: no, it is not misogynistic, racist, transphobic or homophobic when gay people tell you to stop fetishising us. Stop arguing straw men and just take accountability.
Also, maiali pervertiti are the female equivalent of straight men who watch lesbian porn. But somehow worse. That’s all, have a good day.
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tikiki05 · 4 months ago
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hii! i also don't like ghostflower, i luv them as friends, but i think you would truly just be happier if you ignored their ship! i know it's like. the most popular ship for the spiderverse movies and everything so its pretty hard to avoid but ive keep being shown your posts a lot recently and i was just thinking... there's nothing really harmful about them. dedicating so much time and energy towards hating something is probably very draining and makes you feel worse than you would if you just ignored them. you should probably focus on the things you love instead! im sure you have a lot more to say than that you dont like a ship. anyways i hope you have a good day! ❤️
Hello, thank you for the ask and thank you for being respectful, but I’m actually going to explain why you’re incorrect.
Yes, I am anti-ghostflower, but I don’t spend all day long everyday just stewing over how much I hate it like many people assume. I come to tumblr where I meet like-minded people, and that has actually greatly improved my mental health I felt like. Before coming here and carving out this space for myself, all I saw was pro-ghostflower rhetoric everywhere I went. I felt isolated, ostracized, and was even attacked by ghostflower shippers for trying to express my grievances with the ship.
I love getting to come on here and have in-depth discussions on the specific reasons why we dislike ghostflower and why we feel it doesn’t work, that entirely makes my day and greatly improves my mood!
I know you mean no harm, but I’m really tired of people seeing my page and somehow just seeing hate. It’s so much more than hate if you look for more than two seconds, it’s legitimate criticism and analysis of the writing of these movies.
This page has become less about my “hate” of ghostflower, and much more about my love of breaking down and dissecting movies, motifs in movies, characters in movies, etc. Therefore, I am focusing on something I love. And I’m really disappointed that people aren’t recognizing that.
Also I’m sorry, but I just can’t ignore something that upsets me! And that I feel is wrong! I am not an ignorer in any capacity! I am a yapper and I yap about things that I feel need yapping about!
Once more, I know you don’t mean to be malicious, and I appreciate you trying to be considerate of what would make me happy. Have a nice day✨
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demigodpolls · 5 months ago
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about demigod polls ♡
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hi! as the bio says, this is a blog dedicated to forming creative (and hopefully thought-provoking) polls for the PJO fanbase! polls are usually character-focused, and I strongly encourage everyone to engage with the prompts authentically - instead of instantly going for your favorite character (it's completely fine if you do!), try to consider all of the options and vote for the one that makes the most sense to you!
this blog is currently not accepting poll submissions (but it will someday! see this post for more info), but the ask box is now open if you want to reach out for any other reason!
I also try my hardest to seek out artwork/writing from PJO creators that have under 600 notes and reblog them - so in the interest of spreading the love, I hope you guys share my pro-creator sentiments and like/reblog them often as well. fandoms are nothing without our wonderful creators. reblogging is one of the best ways to support them!
if you like, you can find me on my main blog @bayetea, but please read my pinned before following. and if you see me reblogging my artwork/writing here... I am a fandom creator as well ( ˶´ ᵕ `˶ )
please note that this blog is a friendly space for the fandom. you are highly encouraged to write as many paragraphs as you want in the tags/comments explaining your answers - lots of people read them! but character hate and ship hate is not tolerated at all. I don't give second chances - if you post unkind things, your comments will be deleted and your account will be blocked. your least favorite character/pairing may be someone else's favorite, so please be considerate and save it for your own blogs (yes, this applies to that one ship that "nobody" likes - if you are hating on it in my notifs, you will be blocked permanently.)
lastly, this blog unequivocally supports leah sava jeffries, black annabeth, and rick's casting decisions. anti-leah/anti-black annabeth rhetoric will be deleted and your account will be blocked. complaints about "book accuracy" are not welcome. again, save it for your own blogs. thank you.
- demigodpolls
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(art by @viria)
(dividers by @cafekitsune, check them out!)
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sodasbubble · 8 months ago
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DNI + general blog rules
Do Not Interact if you are any of the following:
-If your primary blog/the blog you interact from is nsfw/kink related -A racist of any kind -Anti-Palestine -Bigoted against certain religions -Queerphobic in some way/exclude any part of the LGBTQIA acronym -Against neopronouns and/or xenogenders -Against “contradictory labels” (mspec-mono identities, lesboys, etc) -(NO)MAP/zoo/supporter of any harmful paras -Against non-harmful paras (objectum, etc) -Pro/com/dark ship or a supporter of those things (neutrals are on INCREDIBLY thin ice) -If you police/bash non-abusive ships or try to label people as pro/com/dark shippers when they aren’t -Pro-harassment of any kind -Ableist -Against educated self-diagnosis -Stigmatize Cluster-B disorders (NPD, BPD, ASPD, etc) or any disorder for that matter -Against otherkin/fictionkin/therains/any other alterhuman identity -If you’re against and/or sexualize age/pet/animal regressor/dreamers -Fakeclaimer of any kind -If you’re against all endogenic systems (We do not know our origin, but I will not tolerate the violently harmful rhetoric y’all spew. Anti-endos are the reason we didn’t discover ourselves for so long.) -If you deny or invalidate anyone’s good-faith identity in any other way -Aggressive Cross x Dream shipper -General meanie/bully
Basically: be appropriate, don’t be a bigot, don’t support abuse, don’t be a jerk, that’s it. If you have any questions or need any definitions, feel free to ask.
Now for more general blog rules
Ask permission to use my art please!
If I upset you/I messed up, please let me know since I can guarantee it’s not on purpose. I make a lot of mistakes and I wanna know about it so I don’t make them as much, I am bad at self-awareness and have a lot of issues.
Do not bring any sort of drama from or pertaining to my main on here, I am often regressed and vulnerable here, I will not respond well.
Do not attempt to argue with me on anything related to my DNI. Block me and move on. Any and all hate/discourse is blocked on sight.
This blog may contain vents, though they will be tagged.
Be nice about my favorite ships please, they’re also mostly queerplatonic because I’m arospec.
I make stimboards sometimes and take requests! But please assume that if the thing you’re requesting has a non-childsafe source, it will be politely declined.
last updated (mm/dd/yy): 11/9/24
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demiaroacefrieren · 1 year ago
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⭐️About Me⭐️
💚Call me Frieren (not giving out my irl name for privacy reasons)
💚She/They
💚Cis Woman (Although I've been questioning if I'm Nonbinary or not. Still figuring it out)
💚25
💚Demi AroAce
💚ADHD + Autistic + Anxiety
💚Radical Inclusionist/Anti Exclusionist
💚Antishipper/Anti Proship, Anti Comship, and Anti Darkship
💚Leftist
💚Intersectional Feminist
💚Ex Catholic
💚Beginner Satanic Pagan Witch
💚Beginner Tarot Reader
💚Abuse and SA victim
💚Fat
⭐️My Beliefs⭐️
💚Anti Proship Neutral (as in against anyone who claims they're proship "neutral". Anyone who claims are neutral are lowkey proship)
💚Fiction can affect reality
💚Pro Choice and Pro Bodily Autonomy
💚Pro MOGAI
💚Pro Microlables
💚Pro It/Its Pronouns and Neopronouns
💚Against anyone who believes that Its/Its Pronouns and Neopronouns are transphobic (it's also ableist to be against these pronouns as they're created by Neurodivergent and disabled Trans people)
💚Pro Xenogenders
💚Anti Amber Heard/Anti Amber Heard Supporters (Supporting Amber after she admitted to abusing Johnny Depp is TERF rhetoric. TERFs believe that abusive and terrible women should he absolved of their actions because they're women. I'm not a Johnny Depp fan, but using his shitty actions as a way to erase his status as a domestic violence victim is victim shaming. You can acknowledge that Johnny is a terrible person and an abuse victim at the same time.)
💚Men can be victims and suffer under the patriarchy
💚Women can be abusers and benefit from the patriarchy
💚Anti "Kill All Men" (Wishing death to all men and wishing to commit male genocide is eugenics as marginalized men exist.)
💚Against anyone who compares being Trans to blackface (These two things should not be compared to all. It's racist and transphobic to compare the two since Trans people of color exist.)
💚Cancel Culture doesn't exist (it was made up by people who don't want to hold themselves accountable for their shitty actions. There's a difference between calling someone out of their bullshit and going after someone for something so small.)
💚Pro Sex Work
💚Pro Porn/Anti Porn Industry
💚Anti Christianity/Catholicism (and against all denominations of Christianity)
💚Anti TERF/Radfem/MERF/TEHM/SWERF (or any fascists who appropriates feminism with their bigotry)
💚Pro Kink
💚Queer is a political term and identity. Not a slur.
💚The R slur will never be a reclaimable slur
💚Against anyone who calls Autism "Asperger's Syndrome" (it's named after an Austrian doctor who was affiliated with the Nazis and killed Autistic children that didn't fit his standards)
💚Anti Veganism (Veganism is ableist and classist)
💚Anti Antitheism (Antitheism is deeply rooted in white supremacy and is harmful to people in marginalized religions.)
💚Anti Yandere Simulator/Anti Yandere Dev/Against anyone who still plays the game after Yandere Dev got exposed as a groomer
💚Anti Yandere archetype (it's based on harmful stereotypes of people with Borderline Personality Disorder)
💚Anyone who says that women shouldn't wear makeup, shouldn't wear revealing clothing, shouldn't get plastic surgery, and shouldn't become a sex worker (by choice) is anti bodily autonomy
💚Against people who are anti children (people who are against children and say stuff like "fuck them kids" or "I hate kids" probably have some deep-rooted trauma and should consider seeing a therapist. Adults should not be projecting their trauma onto kids. Also, saying you want to hurt any random child you see will end up with you being charged for child endangerment)
💚Against anyone who believes that hitting their children is a form of punishment (hitting your kids for whatever reason is abuse. And this is coming from someone whose been hit by both parents.)
💚Pro Self Shipping (self shipping is okay as long as you're shipping yourself with a character that's close to your age)
💚Against adult self shippers who ship themselves with underage characters
💚Against any fanart/fanfiction that sexualizes underage characters/against any fanart and fanfics that "ages up" underage characters just to sexualize them (sexualizing fictional minors is just as bad as sexualizing real minors. Pedophilia is still the same regardless of whether the minor in question is fictional or not.)
💚Against anyone who ships real life people
💚Anti Real People Fanfiction (making fanfics of real life people is so fucking weird. Stop treating real people like fictional characters.)
💚Against any Autistic person who refers to their Autism as Asperger's Syndrome/Anti Aspie Supremacy (Aspie Supremacists are low support needs Autistic people who believe that they're more superior than high support needs Autistic people and other high support needs disabled people. It's also rooted in white supremacy as well.)
💚Against anyone who still uses terms like "high/low functioning", "special needs", and "mentally challenged".
💚Anti White Supermacy/Neo Nazism
💚Anti Republican/Apolitical/Libertarian/Centrist
💚Anti Autism Speaks and against anyone who supports it
💚Anti Harry Potter/Anti Fantastic Beasts/Anti JK Rowling/Against anyone who still consumes JK's work after she outed herself as a TERF (buying secondhand and fanmade merchandise and reading/producing fanfics is just as bad as you're continuing to give her work relevance and keeping it mainstream even though she's not profiting from anything secondhand and fanmade. This includes any book she wrote under the name Robert Galbraith, who was an Anti LGBTQIA+ conversion therapist.)
💚Hazbin Hotel Critical/Anti Helluva Boss/Vivziepop Critical
💚Pro Mspec labels (I don't fully understand those labels, but I'm not going to use it as an excuse to exclude them from the community.)
💚Against non-Lesbians who think Trans men can't be Lesbians (as a cis non-Lesbian, it's none of my business if a Trans man identified as a Lesbian as long as they're not hurting anyone)
💚Against anyone who ships canon Lesbian characters with male characters
💚Against anyone who ships Gay male characters with female characters
💚Against anyone who ships canon Ace/Aro characters with Allo characters
💚Against anyone who believes that blashwashing is real (blackwashing was created by anti black racists as a way to silence people of color when talking about representation in media)
💚Anti Transmed/Anti Truscum/Anti Gender Critical
💚Pro Self Diagnosis/Anti Fake Claiming
💚Anyone who mocks Joe Biden for his stutter and accuses him of having dementia are ableist (Biden has a speech disorder, which causes his stuttering. I'm not a Biden supporter, but as a disabled person, you're saying that disabled people that they can't hold high positions of power by making fun of the way he speaks.)
💚Anti Harassment
💚Anti Suicide Baiting
💚Anti Fatphobia/Anti Fat Shaming
💚Anti Radqueer
💚Pro Palestine
💚Anti Israel/Anti Zionism
💚Anti Enemies to Lovers trope (and against other toxic relationships tropes)
⭐️Fandoms⭐️
(This will be filled out at one point. I'm just too lazy to do so 🙃)
⭐️Rules⭐️
💚Reblogs have been turned off on my posts to prevent people whom I don't want to interact with. This includes restricting comments on my posts, too, for the same reason. I suffer from anxiety, and it's just easier for me to filter out who I do want or do not want to interact with.
💚Any asks and DMs from people I don't want to interact with will be deleted. If anyone continues to do so, will be blocked.
💚Anyone who I don't want to interact with will be instantly blocked if they tag me in any posts. I'm not gonna waste my time and read your stupid ass post. Also, it will open me up to any form or harassment.
💚Any asks and DMs complaining about my beliefs list will be deleted. I'm sorry, but I'm not gonna argue with people my beliefs. It's not worth my time and mental health.
💚Any asks and DMs about the Amber Heard vs. Johnny Depp situation will be deleted. I don't support either person as they're both terrible people. Also, the situation has been over for more than a year now, and it's basically beating a dead horse. I was simply trying to make a point that you can be a victim of something and be a shitty person at the same time, as well as that person's shitty actions should not be used as a way to erase their victim status. I was trying to make a point that men can be victims, and women can be abusers. Abuse has no gender.
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