#I can make sense out of most other fanon but this is the one thing that has no known reasonable explanation

[breadvidence]

Using this space to reply to both @blatherby and @fluentisonus!

@blatherby: right right right, "The time has come to journey on/And from this day he must be gone"—and I do think you're correct that standard fanon is he's going into this encounter with the intent to leave, though I suppose I don't know how much by percentage Valvert fic is actually based on the musical vs the Brick, and for the former it's not a misreading per se. I'm thrown, in any case! Really having to recalibrate my sense of the level of his self-harm and suicidality (which still sits at "very nonzero", but slightly lower than "dialed up to eleven", I guess—I think that the line "He was at his own request and through his own complicity driven out of all his happinesses one after the other; and he had this sorrow, that after having lost Cosette wholly in one day, he was afterwards obliged to lose her again in detail" signals that he wouldn't have been able to sustain himself on this course regardless of Marius' part in things).

@fluentisonus said in tags:

#yes!!!! this was something i was thinking abt a lot when i just got here on this last read#& i think contributed to my being more frustrated with/upset by marius this time around than before#i think the other line here is that really stood out to me is 5.8.2:#''He came every day because he had not the strength to take Marius’ words otherwise than literally''#<- which to me does Not speak to someone who is planning to stop visiting.#or at least to actually go through with not visiting#he's in fact willfully taking marius at his literal word re visiting rather than what i think he knows derp down marius would prefer#like he gave marius incomplete reasons & scared him badly (his (jvj's) fault!) but the m jean stuff is i think just intended as a layer of#separation to visiting & that last horrible wrench is all marius. & while not quite unexpected it's not what he (ivj) would have done#naturally if given the choice. in fact as we see it's incredibly hard to prevent himself from going#anyways really good post!#les mis#i think another thing though is that he asks marius to visit when he's quite literally at the door. like. he knows he can't bear#to not have this one thing. like he says all that & asks marius if he should see her again; takes his 'cold' no; gets to the door; & then#closes the door again & turns around to beg to see her <- tbc this is not a disagreement with your point that he always intends to visit#cosette just that both in-book & out of book it's easy to mistake bc it being at the end there makes it almost Seem like an afterthought#rather than i think one of the most genuinely earnest parts of his confession because to him he's been building up to something#he's not convinced he deserves & is asking against his better judgement#But i think this doesn't look good particularly to marius#it looks like he's backtracking on what he's set up#& marius gives in in the moment but it's one of the things he specifically regrets caving to in the next chapter#& i think is frustrated jvj couldn't fully follow through so he decides to force the issue#if that makes sense#hmm also (<- sorry op to come back & add more tags hours later) speaking of the m jean/vouvoyer thing i think you can very much read that#as being not a step towards a final separation but rather a way (to his mind) he can safely & perhaps even more honestly (?) Continue to#visit cosette. he can still see her without being connected to her in sn incriminating way . like you say#<- ofc this is not at all how it comes across to cosette

Yes!!! The level of my "jesus, you murdered that man" feelings towards Marius definitely dialed up a notch by reading the scene through this lens. As I said in responding above: re-reading further, I think it's a misjudgment on Valjean's part—that he can survive on black bread, but not on so little of Cosette—but I do wonder if, in the long run, as she once convinced him to have a fire and better food for her sake, whether she would've rekindled their bond and said to hell with this to the M. Jean and vouvoyer and cellar. Like, she's caught up in a new marriage, in learning what it means to love openly and fuck a man and live in the world, but I like to think given a few more months to settle into things she would've come back around to her papa—because she might not need him like she did when she was alone in the woods, but there's more in love than needing.

Which sidetracks me from "what did Jean Valjean mean to do?" to "what did Jean Valjean actually do?", and in the context of Cosette's happiness—it's always fraught! always makes me holler. Poor old man, and poor child.

I've dithered over making this post because I will feel incredibly silly if everyone else got this on the first go-through rather than the—Lord alone knows how many times I've read this particular scene, actually—but there I was, me and "The Seventh Circle and the Eighth Heaven"—as you do, for idle and entertainment, and I reach

If you will allow it, I will come to see her. I assure you that I desire it greatly. If I had not cared to see Cosette, I should not have made to you the confession that I have made, I should have gone away; but, as I desired to remain in the place where Cosette is, and to continue to see her, I had to tell you about it honestly. You follow my reasoning, do you not? it is a matter easily understood.

And realized that despite the character stating his reason right there in the text I have misunderstood badly. I took Valjean's intent with this confession and in his behavior afterwards to be separation from Cosette, that his desired outcome is to die alone, that he struggles against his love of her to reach that solitude, but it's—not. He says earlier that it's not, as well.

Stay, the unfortunate point is that I have a thread in my heart, which keeps me fast. It is when one is old that that sort of thread is particularly solid. All life falls in ruin around one; one resists. Had I been able to tear out that thread, to break it, to undo the knot or to cut it, to go far away, I should have been safe. I had only to go away; there are diligences in the Rue Bouloy; you are happy; I am going. I have tried to break that thread, I have jerked at it, it would not break, I tore my heart with it.

The thread—to Cosette. He can't separate himself. He would not have to make this confession if he could simply leave her. Therefore he has to confess to Marius for two reasons, as I see it: (1) a big dramatic compulsion to honesty about his symbolic status as one who cannot live in the family of men, sure, but (2) like, real literally, he cannot live in the house. Valjean is practical, he makes arrangements, he's smart, his confession draws from the saint but I think it's also the thief, and what does the thief need? A co-conspirator. Both morally and practically he's averse to living at the Rue des Filles-du-Calvaire, and with both Cosette and her "master" Marius pushing him to move in, he'd have to move totally away, as he's certainly not going to give in—but now he's got Marius' backing to allow him to stay at the Rue de l'Homme-Armé, and he can exist in the in-between space he's always occupied, there in the back courtyard of Cosette's life.

I always wondered at Valjean's vacillation—that he says "To-day, Cosette passes out of my life; our two roads part. Henceforth, I can do nothing for her.", then begs Marius for the right to visit her. But he didn't change his intent at all; he was always keen to visit, to live on the crumbs that scatter from the table. He simply can't pull up a chair.

Marius' passive-aggressive attack on that thread, the destruction of Valjean's heart, Valjean is complicit in accepting that, yes. But he did not come into this parlor looking for that outcome.

🤦‍♂️

[starcurtain]

Everyone on Twitter playfully dragging Aventurine for his crop top and track pants fit, and while I agree that this is hilarious and should be meme'd into oblivion, I also can't help but think that the Aventurine fandom as a whole should definitely embrace turning "He's kind of tacky, wouldn't know a subtle outfit unless it was picked by Jade, and wears bizarrely out-of-touch fits on his days off just because he personally thinks they look cool" into an endearing fanon character trait.

Because like, canonically? It makes perfect sense.

As a child, his family didn't have the luxury of giving him a wide variety of clothes in different styles or fabrics. He wore what he could get. Then, we're only ever shown adult Kakavasha wearing rags until joining the IPC.

We know from his character stories that he was kept extremely out of the loop on world news and mainstream media as a slave and literally wouldn't know anything about clothing other than seeing it on other people.

From the time he was a child, wearing whatever his family could pull together, to the time he became an adult prisoner wearing literal scraps, there was never a need or even reasonable opportunity for him to learn about fashion or the social pressures of "dressing to fit in."

The first thing he's told to do as a member of the Stonehearts is "Go pick out new clothes," and the next time we see him, he's wearing the most peacock-esque outfit possible. When Jade told him to pick out his clothes, he literally went in completely blind with no lessons on how to appropriately dress for any adult occasion at all.

While I do think that one of the first things Aventurine would have done as a new Stoneheart is research how to establish a certain "character" for himself and how to dress to give a specific impression, I also think that Aventurine would delight in finally, finally having the power to present himself exactly as he chooses--and that would likely be very strongly informed by an entire child- and young-adulthood growing up without a single social pressure to "dress normal."

Given that he never had someone to teach him how to dress in any modern intergalactic style in his formative years, I think that it makes perfect sense for his "fashion" sense to be extremely unique to him, with little outside influence except for being strongly based on what he knows best: the luxuries the Avgin people could gather from the deserts of Sigonia-IV.

Ratio accuses him of being "flashy," but Aventurine likely loads up all his personally-picked outfits with turquoise jewels, fur trim, and gold metal accents because that's what he grew up perceiving as status symbols and signs of prosperity. Of course he's flashy! Why would he not want to wear furs and jewels now that he has them?! What do you mean wearing six gold bangles is overkill with a t-shirt? No such thing as overkill, come on!

Topaz dropping the Star Rail equivalent of "You look like what would happen if Fashion Week was themed on the yakuza and the Roaring 20s at the exact same time" every other month.

"Well, I think it looks great!"

tl;dr: Aventurine can definitely do his research and blend his outfits into any scenario if needed, but when left to his own devices, he absolutely wears the most over-the-top and/or bizarrely unmodern and "I couldn't care less what is currently trending" fits because no one ever taught him fashion sense when he was growing up, he's finally got the autonomy to dress himself in whatever he thinks looks best, and he's still a little bit drunk on the opportunity to bath in the natural luxuries he longed for but could never have as a child.

Just sayin'.

[howlsofbloodhounds]

I think my favorite “fanon” interpretations of nightmare have to be like cartoonishly evil and silly. Or like, old and powerful and grumpy about it and you best get off his lawn.

Peepaw Nightmare, he complains about his back and how “back in my day!” and he calls Killer “boy” when he’s upset with him. “Boy quiet.” “Boy quiet.” “Boy quiet now.”

Killer uses the movements of his tentacles to predict the weather like some older folk say they can feel the weather changing thanks to things like their “bad knee.”

And most of the time NM’s tentacles usually can predict the weather. Nightmare smacks killer over the head with his tentacle like an older man hitting the ankles of youngsters with a cane for being rowdy.

And like peepaw is really knowledgeable about a ton of things but also doesn’t keep up with modern technology and killer uses this to fuck with him for amusement. Convinced him a roomba is some type of highly intelligent pet.

And nightmare knows he’s being fucked with, but he’s just too stubborn and prideful to “get with the times.” And killer knows that he knows, so it’s like a game to see who cracks first.

Peepaw Nightmare uses the “it’s because you’re always on that damn phone” with killer a lot. Even in situations where it doesn’t make any sense. Killer threatens to put him in a nursing home frequently.

And nightmare has this big specific chair thats just for him and everyone knows it but it’s become a game to see who can sit on it for how long without getting caught. (Cross is the only one refusing to probably).

Killer frequently hears “why can’t you be more like cross and dust?” from the old man whenever he’s Had Enough of the antics.

And nightmare knits like cartoonishly evil versions of holiday sweaters for the group and has like the fucked up creepy doll equivalent of a beanie baby or porcelain doll collection. Dust feels like a sort of kinship with dolls and the other dudes have like a comical fear or aversion to them. Nightmare named every one like they’re his kids & the only ones understanding it r error & dust.

Everyone else refuses to call the dolls by name, besides cross who does it in a reluctant creeped out way.

Nightmare & error have old people beef over aus like old neighbors beefing over property lines & mowing the others lawn or something. & nm beefs with color about being a “good influence” on killer.

Nightmare calls dream at random intervals just to curse him out and insult him before hanging up and refuses to answer whenever Dream calls first. The “stars vs bad sanses” “negativity vs positivity” war/balance doesn’t actually exist or is just tipped enough in nightmare’s favor that he doesn’t worry about it so instead the twins just squabble over the golden apple though phone like its a custody battle over a beloved pet.

[celaenaeiln]

Something fanon gets wrong

Dick Grayson is genuinely one of the greatest fighters in all of DC.

I know people have trouble believing this for some reason but a man who has defeated every single one of his enemies, other people’s enemies, and has consistently come out on top should have his abilities talked about a bit more because they’re amazing.

Let's start small to big. Firstly Donna talks about Nightwing's abilities.

When I read this I was confused by what she meant. Prowess means skill or expertise and that makes sense but Dick has a lot of power behind him though...

And then I realized she meant metaphysical power.

Dick isn't a magician. He can't run at supersonic speeds, throw buildings, speak to animals, communicate with the dark, fly above the clouds, bounce bullets off his chest (Oh, wait. He can do it off his ass instead never mind), turn into animals, or other amazing abilities. But his skill is so high that he is easily able to keep up with people who can.

M'gann, the white martian with extraordinary capabilities, tells Dick, "You are just a human, with no superpowers, yet you have consistently excelled throughout your career, despite being surrounded by godlike beings."

This is incredible.

We see Dick leading teams of superheroes and metas all the time and we take it for granted but we never acknowledge the immense power and skill he must have for him to be able to do this.

Repeatedly. Time after time. He outsmarts both his human allies and outfights his meta ones.

One of Dick’s greatest OP moments is when he takes down the entire Titans team -Gar, Raven, Donna, and Jason too when he hung around with them- single handedly. And when Jason put a gun to the back of his head in supposed victory, Dick opened his hand to let the golden bullets fall, gleaming in the light with the coldest line, “with these bullets?”

We all know how amazing Bruce is, but Dick is on Bruce's level.

No?

Okay, here's the evidence.

Dick has fought Azael in a sword fight to a standstill when Azael has beaten Bruce separately and Tim and Jason combined.

He has defeated Ra's in a sword fight and Ra's is one of the greatest swordsmen.

Sometimes he doesn't even need a sword to defeat a skilled swordsman.

He's a League of Assassins member and we all know that anyone from the League of Assassins is never just good. They're excellent. The entire fight Dick is looking for Blockbuster and he's so capable and good at fighting the entire scene was like watching Thanos flick Captain America away vibes. He's not even looking at him when he smashes his foot into Shrike's face!

Most importantly, he has defeated Deathstroke

The greatest thing about Dick is he is able to defeat Slade at the peak of Slade's abilities. Slade doesn't need to be weakened for Dick to win.

Here's where people has some hesitance accepting Dick's abilities.

"Bruce has defeated Slade but Dick has never been able to!"

He literally has in Dark Crisis but I'll give you the lead up.

Dick can easily disarm Slade.

He can predict Slade's moves ahead of time and properly counteract them.

He can go toe to toe with him and in one comic, they dance down a hallway, fighting, neither able to get the upper hand. The mercenary meta, considered by the US Government to be 1 of 2 greatest assassins (the other being Katana) isn't able to pin down and defeat a 20 year old despite his enhancements.

I left out the scene where Dick twisting Deathstroke's arm and smashing his face into a bedroom mirror despite being complete weaponless and in his civilian identity. No protection and no support. But it's another example of how Dick's poweress is much greater than people expect of him.

Of course there are panels where Dick has been defeated by Slade but Dick isn't 17/18 anymore. He isn't learning to fight without Batman hovering over his side.

Also there is a panel everyone references to when talking about Nigthwing losing to Deathstroke. This one.

sure. okay. whatever. BUT WHY WON'T YOU SHOW WHAT HAPPENS NEXT COWARDS?!?

THEY DANCE-FIGHT LIKE THEY'RE ENEMIES IN A BALLROOM ON OPPOSING SIDES BUT CAN'T AFFORD TO LET ANYONE FIND OUT.

THIS IS SOME HIGH LEVEL JAMES BOND-RED NOTICE-MISSION IMPOSSIBLE- TYPE SHIT.

"Close the hold, you morons! Close the--Guuk!"

That's Slade talking by the way. To his allies. Who do you think made him "GUUK!"?

And here they were evenly matched.

But Slade had to pull out bombs he had been saving for when other people came in order to defeat dICK AND HE STILL LOST BECAUSE DICK BESTED HIM.

Yup. Dick is just that good.

Nightwing defeated Bane

Before you go into saying something like "it was a holographic construction." What the fuck difference does that make? Does a holographic construction alter the strength used by the enemy, change their fighting style, phase through when fighting, act dumber than the real deal? No, right? The fact is Dick broke Bane's back the exact same manner that Bane broke Batman's. All those scenes of Bane punching Nightwing around? Let me remind you that the guy snuck up on Dick. The second time Dick underestimated Bane's powers before getting ready to put in real effort before Batman interfered to take Bane for himself.

All those amazing scenes of him defeating enemies that we've scoffed at recently? They're just a continuation of what already is written. It's not new or unbelievable, it's expected.

Here's my final point. Dick has defeated all of the Justice League's enemies in one go.

This is Batman/Superman comic where Kara gets infected so Dick as Batman sends her to the medbay while he tears down the Watchtower to save her. As in every single defense mechanism the Watchtower has, he demolishes it with his pure skill and abilities. Furthermore, the Watchtower defenses were enhanced by cyborg Superman to be lethal. To kill on sight.

Just. Phenomenal.

He did it! He defeated all of them and made it to the electronic controls he was aiming for.

Another thing I want to point is Dick's strength is greater than what people assume it to be.

He's the world's greatest acrobrat and has a build fitting of that but the strength he packs in his body is equal to that of a meta. Maybe it's because of how he only fights with metas and has teammates that are all metas but he has raised his striking power to equal that.

He shatters cyborg superman in one blow.

He can handle blows from meta humans in a way most others can't which suggests to me that he must've done some kind of training or have maybe increased pain tolerance or have the ability to backseat the pain so it won't affect his fighting. How many can take a hit and rise up the next second?

He's not metahuman. Batman must've done several tests because he also was amazed by robin Dick's poweress lol but really Dick is just extraordinary. Give him any enemy and he will garaunteed defeat them without using cheap tricks or surprise moves which is why he is one of the greatest. The only time people have gotten an upperhand on him is when he has been emotionally weakened. Emotionally. Imagine the absolute monster he would be if he controlled his emotions like Batman.

But I would never want him to though because his emotions are the reason why he's the light of DC.

[shiraoyagi]

i think we need to talk about this unit thematically

i know it's "haha april fool's day, they're stuck in a futuristic city and rui wants to study the silly sekai aliens" but like... hear me out

im pretty sure these 4 were picked because they all have one major thing in common— the fact that they were failed by society.

kaito v1 was a commercial failure on release, to the point where other vocal synth companies looked at his low sales and consequently made less male vocal synths— leading to the large gender gap in vocal synths that we still have today (although its less than what it was ~5 yrs ago imo). i think clpl actually considered this when picking kaito for this unit solely because it's vbs kaito— the kaito that most strongly resembles old fanon kaito in how he can easily be described as a carefree dumbass that loves icecream.

rui was ostracized his whole life for being "dangerous" with his shows by his classmates, as well as being isolated because of how he was "different" from the other kids (implied neurodivergent). this lead to rui struggling with depression as well as a myriad of other issues (such as his abandonment issues) later on.

akito was ALSO ostracized for being too serious about his passions and having a "bad attitude", which lead to him developing an inferiority complex as well as leading to him essentially being overly polite to strangers because of his past trauma where he was publicly humiliated, had his reputation ruined, and brought disgrace to a place he loved just for accidentally spilling water on someone 💀 (find a way out is so real) ((also i choose to see akito as neurodivergent mainly because of how his behavior is framed idk i feel like him being overly polite is him masking, esp. when u compare his behavior between different people.. recent example: how he acts around rui vs how he acts around mafuyu for example)) (((also, he's rui's narrative foil, so it just makes a lot of sense???)))

and then there's haruka, who was so close to being the "perfect" idol but couldn't because of her trauma from hurting mai— she was unable to meet the expectations of being an idol under the pressure of probably not only her managers but also the large fanbase she always wanted to give hope to

[farshootergotme]

Now that I have the confidence to send you asks, fully expect me to bug you periodically from here on out

Anyways- do you think Dick qualifies as a scapegoat? Cause I 100% think he's a scapegoat. People always try to shove the 'golden child' role onto Dick, and it always confused me cause like. He doesn't fit it at all if you actually look into what a golden child is.

Dick is definitely one of the scapegoats of the batfamily (Jason being the other) and it makes me sad that people always label him a golden child when he's the exact opposite. Seriously- he's hit, beaten, unfairly blamed, lashed out at, not told about important things (Jason or being replaced, Jason dying, Jason's funeral, probably other things, i wouldn't be surprised), etc. Definition of a scapegoat to me.

It's also why I hesitate to label him the 'favorite' even when the comics try to say otherwise. Mostly because... favorite children aren't really treated this way. Favorite weapon, maybe, as I've said in a post I've made before, but that's it. Bruce wouldn't kill for him or any of his kids. He's come close, yeah, but he's also come close to killing the Joker too after Jason's death and had to be threatened into not doing it. Every time, it's in a strong surge of emotion, and the second Bruce thinks rationally- well, he doesn't do it. Dick isn't at all unique, Bruce wouldn't kill for him either.

I think Bruce is the most proud of Dick, and has a unique relationship with him due to knowing him the longest and the parentification, but I don't think that makes him the favorite. Maybe to the other batkids, but probably not in reality.

I don't think Bruce really HAS a favorite- Dick is probably the closest to it, but still.

Though, if you wanna play around with angst and fanon ideas, maybe both Dick and Jason are the favorites and that's why Bruce treats them the worst? Dunno, it'd make a fun fic, even if it's not really grounded in canon (though I ignore RHATO and Comic UTRH).

Idk. Just,, gestures. Dick is a scapegoat to me.

Hope my 2 am rambling made sense lol

Okay, I see you, but I'll argue:

Dick Grayson is both the scapegoat and the golden child.

Now, you might not believe this since he doesn't tend to be both at the same time, and it isn't common for these roles to exist within the same individual. But Dick Grayson is praised and favored as much as he's blamed and pushed.

A golden child is the one who carries most of the expectations in the family. The parent expects them to be perfect, make no mistakes, take on roles they're pushed into with no issue (thus parentification can happen), and continue on and on to be good enough and meet the criteria so they don't make the parent disappointed.

The love is conditional hence they develop this unhealthy perfectionism and self-esteem and self-worth issues that will follow them till adulthood even when they're out of that environment and living their own lives.

The reason why a parent might choose a specific child (or children) to be the favored one is because they tend to see this child as an extension of themselves. And consequential to this, they will project their insecurities onto said child and force them to improve—be the best—where they fall short. All of their capabilities are overvalued, making the parent see them as special and much better than the rest, causing the unrealistic expectations a child must hold and fulfill so as not to “fail” their parent(s).

Although this child might seem like the favorite and who could do no wrong on the outside, the love they receive isn't something they can take for granted.

When a golden child underperforms or isn't as good as they're expected, the parent’s demeanor might change. They will feel the disappointment and fear this might cause the treatment they get to change. Sometimes the child might even fear abandonment or rejection from their parent as a result of their failures.

The mix of all this turns into a person who's over-competent, hard-working and someone that tends to take charge of things so they aren't at risk of failing, making them ‘natural’ leaders in any group they might be part of.

Sounding familiar yet?

Now, let's move on to the scapegoat:

A scapegoat child is the one that is blamed by all the things that go wrong in the family. They are constantly criticized and shamed by things they might've not even been part of, but somehow they're now involved and taking all the blame for the others so there are no consequences for anyone but them.

(All the blame also messes with their perception of certain events, making them prone to self-blame for the problems that occur in the family or their behaviors towards them.)

The scapegoating in the family may be due to subconscious projection from the parent when they're dealing with difficult emotions such as shame, guilt, rage, etc. They feel threatened by their own feelings and therefore they will try to escape from them by externalizing those feelings and making them their scapegoat’s problem.

Because of this treatment, the scapegoat might become an outsider in the family, feeling excluded and isolated from the rest. And for this, when push comes to shove and they're going through a rough patch, they will not have any reliable support they can go to inside the family as they'll be ignored or otherwise unfairly treated, having their feelings be invalidated.

Like the golden child, there's some aspects the scapegoat shares with the former:

Being treated differently by the parent/family.

Having unrealistic expectations placed upon them.

Being pushed into roles or responsibilities the child isn't meant to take.

Fear of expressing how they feel.

Self-worth issues and low self-esteem.

Although they're usually roles that are considered opposites, they aren't as incompatible as one might think. A child can alternate between being a scapegoat or the golden child, and this usually happens when the parent is very emotionally unstable, commonly due to a disorder such as narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) or borderline personality disorder (BPD).

(I have so many thoughts about the latter applying to Bruce, but I will refrain from elaborating to not make this longer than it needs to be)

Having all I've said until now in consideration, I'm sure you've noticed how Dick meets both criterias—dare I say the golden child more often than the scapegoat.

Bruce is always speaking about how Dick is “better than him” and “the thing he's ever done right”, but in both of these statements you can see he's taking who Dick is and making it as something that's part of him, comparing Dick's accomplishments to his and putting him in this pedestal, and because of this projection happens and Bruce starts seeing Dick as an extension of himself.

This is why, when he or Dick fail, Dick will suddenly become the scapegoat, contrasting with the former golden child position he was in.

Here you can see the high expectations, praise for his accomplishments, his siblings feeling like Dick is better than them (i.e. treated differently than the rest), and you can also see how when he doesn't meet the expectations, he's met with disappointment (see: Alfred disappointed he's not as bright as he usually is) or judgment (see: Bruce angry at him because he isn't committing to his cause as much as he expects him to).

And these are examples of Bruce being too harsh on Dick and expecting him to do better, blaming him for his brother's death, and in result Dick having a habit of blaming himself and accepting mistreatment, thinking it must be his fault.

More often than not, Dick is put on a pedestal by his family and even his friends sometimes. They praise and love him, but when there's occasions in which he's acting less than perfect, the treatment towards him can change.

Dick Grayson can be the golden child as much as he can be the scapegoat.

[azaharinflames]

Sorry I need to rant for a tiny, little bit, because...

You know what I find particularly funny?

Their version of Buddie simply does not exist.

And I am not talking about how it is not canon, that is a given. But their version of it. The things they've claimed they do, or feel about each other, or think of each other.

(Disclaimer: I have my own opinion of their friendship and I do believe there are way better friendships within the show, including for Buck. But I do acknowledge they do love each other as friends and deeply care about one another. And that Chris is important for Buck. That is not up to discussion here. Okay, we can go on)

They have this whole "Buckley-Diaz is a family" that consists of Buck spending 99% of his free time at the Diaz house, of them having weekly movie nights, and of Buck taking Chris to school almost as much as Eddie does. And this is simply not true.

We do see Buck spending time at the Diaz house, of course. When he's hanging out with the Diazes (something that, might I point out, has not really happened since Season 4, as the few scenes we got of them hanging out since have been at Buck's loft - correct me if I'm wrong), helping Eddie out, in a group setting, and hiding from his sister and her helicopter babysitting. Movie nights- when is it even mentioned this is something they do weekly? Not once. And please correct me if I am wrong. Buck does not take Chris to school almost daily, not because he did after Eddie's breakdown does it mean this is a normal and usual occurrence. It doesn't mean it isn't, to be fair, but nothing in canon tells us otherwise. I will give them the zoo, however, because in canon we do have Eddie saying Buck takes Chris there all of the time.

What we got, however, was scenes showing how Buck has his own independent life. He has lots of scenes in his loft, as much as Buddies hate it, as we have never gotten an off-handed comment on how little he's spending there because he's at the Diazes all the time. We've gotten scenes of Buck reaching out to people who are not Eddie for help. And oh, of course - we have gotten scenes of his family (whether you like the Buckleys or not) having a family dinner. And guess who was not invited? Oh, right.

(We have, also, gotten enough scenes with Tommy that we know post-going official, they spend most of their free time with each other. Thank you to Bobby for also confirming this. We love you, king)

With the Diazes, we got scenes that showed how Eddie and Chris exist on their own, without needing Buck there to complete their family. We got a whole ep where Eddie was dealing with Chris's new crush, and instead of making that be a Buckley-Diaz 'family' storyline, Carla was the one accompanying Eddie and being the other adult in the situation. We can say whatever we want about the dating debacle at the end of Season 6 (I also think it was a mess, but for the way they rushed it), but Eddie did not say: oh, Chris and I are fine, we have Buck. And he did not say it because it simply would not have made sense.

And oh, I could go on and on on how the Eddie they have in Fanon is also not the one we have, but this is way too long already. Do let me know if anyone wants to hear it though. Although I will probably write it down whenever I am bored enough.

Short story very long: Buck and Eddie are good friends. They respect each other and clearly enjoy each other's company. And the show has definitely played with the concept of family for them (looking directly at the elf from season 2 here), but never too serious. Never in canon. Outside of the 118 being a family (which I am not denying), at least for me, it has always been obvious how Eddie and Chris were very valued by Buck, but his close-knit family (nuclear family, if you will) is and has always been Maddie (now extended to Jee-Yun and Chim as well), and Bobby (something he's admitted in canon, before someone comes at me for this).

Now, thankfully, we have Tommy to join in in there as well ☺️

[ravenkinnie]

Bruce's relationship with Cass in Batgirl (2000) really is fascinating, and it's kind of the perfect antidote to the nauseating "cuddly Bat-dad" Wayne Family Adventures shit. He really does try with Cass — he's patient and even tender with her in a way he's just not with the others — but he's not only repeating this weird PG-13 version of her biodad's turbo-mega-abuse, he's also reinforcing the most unhealthy part of that cycle, which is the idea that in some twisted way Cain did all that shit to her out of love. Bruce recognizes what Cain did and how it impacts Cass, but he keeps doing the same shit while thinking he's having all these breakthroughs — he really believes it when he tells Barbara it's working, which is possibly the craziest thing he's ever said.

It's one of the few modern Batbook runs I can recall that acknowledges that Bruce's tendency to gruffly push people away is not his only problem. Even when he's acting out of compassion, he just does not have any reference points for what normal relationships ought to look like, which makes him an *incredibly* bad parent. It's kind of amazing.

I also loved the scene where Babs says everyone hates their parents when they're 18 and Bruce pouts so hard about it that she has to apologize.

I'm so serious it's my fave batfam relationship, it's just so batshit. I fucking hate fluffy fanon Bruce and in cass' case especially its just so insulting to them both to completely remove WHY they connect, fanon just makes it that she's simply the purest soul to ever exist and THATS NOT THE CASE THEY WORK BECAUSE THEY ARE BOTH MENTALLY ILL IN THE SAME WAY

he does care and as the story goes on you see it more and more but there's also this whole layer where he just understands her because he projects himself on her so much - and that does both harm and good because cass isn't him and he shouldn't expect her to respond to everything like he would

but she is A LOT like him and its part of why she admires him so much but.also I thimk its part of why he's able to connect to her the way babs might struggle - they are both someone cass needs, the person who will push for her to have it better and do better and also someone who gets where she is at now and who she is

it's v cool - and I wish we got more of it - that a lot of cass - bruce dynamics in her solo and in the issues before her solo like gotham knights #2 is about them figuring each other out. like his crazy ways don't work to make her better but they do work in a sense that she needs to know someone in her life is as crazy as she is and to have that person be a figure she can admire

but the fact that Bruce is so lacking in normal thoughts and expressions makes such a good dynamic with babs because she is the other figure cass needs but she doesn't necessarily get her all the time because she has no frame of reference for that insanity

and his face fucking kills me here

also not sorry to all the robins but cass and bruce just serve the most cunt together

[buttercreamdicks]

I guess if I am going to gather my thoughts about Link and the Eagle, I first have to gather my thoughts about Link and gender and expression. I have been through a lot of fandoms, I have been through a lot of ships, and I have always been against the oft-pervading logic that "This man is gay because [insert stereotypes of gay men performing femininized behaviors or underperforming masculinized behaviors]." One of the reasons I interpret my feelings on Link and gender as #my lesbian queen link neal is -- well, okay, because it's nonsensical and funny, but also because I specifically do not really want to fanon that he is gay because he wears a purse or whatever. One of the other reasons I interpret my feelings on Link and gender as a joke about being a queer female is because when Link says he is an unserious man I feel that unseriousness in manhood as hewing close to my own experience as a queer female; I recognize a lot of my own self or at least my own self's willingness to be "weird" (i.e., plainly honest) about gender and sexuality and affection in the idiosyncratic ways he expresses these things as well.

The main thing that hooked me into Rhett & Link was finding out that they grew up in the Southern conservative Evangelical culture in the '90s. Something that I think about a lot is how Rhett has talked about how Link was the weird kid, how people found him annoying, how he stayed at home and played with his wrestling dolls, how the moment they really became best friends was when Rhett punched that kid for making fun of Link. How in high school everyone thought they were gay. Rhett spent almost all his time with Link anyway. How even now Rhett talks about having to protect Link from himself, from embarrassing himself. And how Link talks about himself as someone who commits faux pas, and about liking that he has a safety net in Rhett, someone who will watch out for him.

Like the thing about Rhett is he performs the masculinity they grew up with well, and apparently always has: good grades, good athlete, just enough unexamined toxicity to his masculinity that he often doesn't pass my vibe check. I didn't grow up in the South or in Christianity but I grew up in the late '90s and I was steeped in enough of same culture of gender that I can recognize the mannerisms that Link has even today that would have been labeled as "weird," and the names he might have been called: sissy, mama's boy, fag. Rhett could have gone through life without ever encountering that, but he didn't. He chose to stick with Link, and he chose specifically to stick with a conception of himself as protecting Link.

And the thing with Link is he continued to be the way he was. He kept enough of those same mannerisms and ways of expressing himself that even now, as a grown man, he is the one a fandom will say is gay, is the twink, is the bottom. Whether he explicitly chose not to change, or is just one of those people who is incapable of not being exactly himself, I don't know. Probably both? Most of us who are queer (in the sense of sexuality or in the sense of being seen as strange) are both.

I also think sometimes of what Link's conception of himself would be if he weren't surrounded by people who have known him forever, or people who know someone who’s known him forever. If everybody's first impression of him wasn't mediated by a bunch of people who carry around his old teenage self crystallized in amber, who grew up in the same culture that thought he was weird, who still spend their time thinking they need to run interference for the way he talks and acts and feels. Because another thing that hooked me into Rhett & Link was how nearly every person in every piece of media they produce says "This guy is weird and awkward and makes people feel bad" when everything I took from watching him was This guy is honest and open and makes me feel good. Like if you just met him, on your own, would you even think anything was strange? If it was just him, without his past, would anybody think he wasn't enough?

[damianbugs]

dc might not like to address how they've unofficially retconned a lot of jasons original robin run to end up being absolutely classist, but i most certainly will bring it up whenever i can. while this is definitely narrative criticism, it is more of a study, as i am not expecting anyone, readers or dc, to really change how they view the todds.

jason goes from being a rather reserved, kind and genuinely friendly child to an angry and cruel boy who was contemplating murder at some point (batman: urban legends). not to mention willis going from an absent but well meaning man who turned to crime to support his family to now being an abusive father and husband. catherine todd was originally stated to have died from overdose, but was later confirmed in death in the family to pass away from cancer, so while the 'poor addict mother' stereotype still applies, it is more complicated in her case.

it is no surprise that in modern tellings, all three of them represent very realistic forms of poverty. willis the abusive criminal, catherine the addict (her battle with cancer is always noticeably left out) and jason the violent child left to repeat the cycle.

dc simply couldn't allow the todd family to remain poor but an all in all good family (though i am careful to say they were perfect, past or present, since depending how you read him, willis can still be seen as a bad father and horrible husband), and instead had to dramatise negative stereotypes of poor people in order to really perpetuate the existence of jason being the "angry" robin. this mostly comes down to dc perhaps wanting to bury older comics featuring the original characterisation (since the only way to read them is through piracy), and there is no better way to do that than make his current characterisation nothing like his old one, at all.

after all, how else can we ensure readers are aware of how angry, evil and emotionally unstable jason todd is, if not making his life the pinnacle of why poor people are terrible and should not have kids? dc is not trying to hide it at all, it's almost laughable.

while the blatant classism is very clearly the biggest issue, from a storytelling perspective it is also really disappointing. deconstructing catherine and willis todd to their morally reprehensible, abusive and neglectful 2d personalities in modern telling leaves a massive gap is what made jason so personable as robin. personally, i also think it takes away how homelessness and his own poverty seperate from his family might have affected jason's morals and opinions on certain topics — another aspect of his character that is very important but often undeveloped.

especially with jason; making him having always been this quick to rage and violent child/robin takes away the true devastation of his death and subsequent revival. he died an innocent, damaged and complicated but caring boy, and came back vengeful and spiteful. he is a boy who has suffered a lot in life, with a sick mother he had to provide for due to his absent father, who also died due to a life of crime — and yet jason broke free from the cycle and became something more.

he loved to learn, to go to school, to play sports and to help people. he loved being a hero, even when it got tough, and though sometimes it was hard to remember, he always tried to stay on the bright side of things.

it's one of the main reasons bruce is so unable to process and accept his son's return, because to him, the person who came back is not the son he lost. though, that is another conversation entirely.

on the one hand however, i can see why jason's current life story might be more appealing to certain readers (and depending on the work, fanon or canon, it can makes more sense). since now that he's broken out of the cycle of abuse, he can use his strength to protect other vulnerable people. the true 'people's hero' in a way batman and other adjacent vigilantes can not be.

it is just a little regrettable that to fulfill this, he and his family must adhere to classist stereotypes to make it more believable. after all, jason was very much the 'people's robin' even without all the retcons to his character. he has always stood up for people who couldn't do it themselves.

[stellocchia]

I absolutely adore the fanon Nightmare Gang found family stuff but... If one of these suckers gets sick they're gonna struggle.

Like, okay, I don't think Nightmare can reasonably get sick. It would make no sense for any virus, bacteria, or parasite to have evolved to survive and thrive in a goop that literally only he posses. He's fine.

But he's also gonna be completely useless when it comes to looking after his team. He would fall for the good old paranoia-inducing mistake of googling the symptoms and finding only death-sentences. And then he's just gonna be miserable and mope until his boys are better.

Killer meanwhile, would logically get sick, but also he would definitely hide it. Like, he was still conditioned by Chara to be a killing machine, no way my guy would just share such a big vulnerability. The others would only find out once he's already in really bad shape and most of the time they wouldn't find out at all.

On the other hand, while I imagine he'd be adept at setting broken bones and the general basic field medicine (again, because of his past he probably had to learn the basics to survive and remain functional), his solution to deal with any actual illness would be "just ignore it until it goes away".

I'm pretty sure Horror is technically already dead, so I don't know if he can get sick... Though I'd say probably? I mean, his body doesn't seem all too different from that of other monsters. Regardless, when sick I say he'd go in full survival mode, build a nest somewhere and be completely unapproachable unless you want your hand chewed off.

On the other hand, being the only one with a living brother and with both of them living in really harsh conditions, he probably has had to handle sickness rather often. Of course, with the lack of resources back in his universe, he mostly had to go for the basics, so his solution is a warm broth and some wet pieces of cloth. At most hot water to disinfect wounds. He's still at least doing something.

Cross is basically like Killer. He doesn't want to appear weak (with a father like his I highly doubt weakness was allowed) so he hides any minor sickness. Though I do think he'd tell, like, Horror if things are getting really bad. If anything, ao he doesn't become a burden for the others during missions.

And, again, much like Killer, I think he definitely would know field medicine. He was trained as a Royal Guard after all, they must have taught him things like that. But actual sickness? Yeah, they probably had medics that handled it when it got too severe. He doesn't know jack shit. His solution is just going to Horror and hoping he's got it handled.

Dust would straight up gaslight himself into thinking he's not sick and that's just his body punishing him for his sins. He literally would not believe it's anything else until someone (again, most likely Horror) pointed it out to him.

And the worst part is that, once he knows, there's no fucking way he'd let anyone treat him for it. That self-loathing fucker would rather suffer through it in some pointless attempt at receiving some form of redemption. He's cooked. Horror would need to tie him to the bed just to force him to get some rest.

So, anyway, this is my propaganda to say let's get at least one Sans who is mentally healthy enough and knowledgeable enough to keep these guys from dying in here.

My vote is for Lust Sans. Just because I love him.

Though someone like Color could also unlock some very fun dynamics. And he may actually get Killer to stop hiding his symptoms like an idiot. And perhaps Cross too. Literally, those guys would lie about getting bit in a zombie apocalypse

[sxnshxnxxnddxxsxxs]

why do people always have damian refer to talia as mother or talia?

now i’m gonna preface this by saying i don’t speak arabic nor am i arab but arab people feel beyond free to just tell me to stay in my lane.

that being said it makes zero sense to me that damian refers to talia as mother or her first name. this goes for both canon and fanon.

mother makes no sense to me because he wouldn’t have grown up saying mother, like you expect me to believe that in nanda parbat damian was referring to his mother in english absolutely not. and while i understand the idea that once he moves to gotham he tries to assimilate i don’t think he would do that my addressing talia as mother. like he might say my mother when referring to her in general. but when actually speaking to her or about her to her family that just feels very unnatural to me.

talia also makes no sense to me. like is to showcase their tumultuous relationship sure okay but i have never in my life seen or heard of a brown person or a poc in general directly refer to their parents as their first name. like when they’re not around sure but as a direct address never. i say this as a poc myself. like you expect me to just believe that talia would allow that. absolutely not. like no matter your stance on respectability politics i feel like addressing your elders with the appropriate respect is a pretty universal thing especially among poc. and you can still portray a tumultuous relationship between parents and children without having an element that’s so aberrative.

i think it especially pisses me off in fanon because people love to have damian refer to bruce or dick as baba as like evidence of their improving relationship but then have talia be called talia or mother. and if the reasoning is that damian and talia’s relationship is so bad that he’s doing this purposefully to put this space between them then that should be demonstrated in the narrative. that this is a recent change, an unnatural one, it isn’t instinctual, but it is purposeful. i mean there are also other issues with talia and damian having a horrible relationship but i find that most of that comes down to talias post 2001 characterisation so i wont go into it but i defo think writers should keep in mind. no media is ever created in a vacuum.

anyway from a little bit of research i’ve done i’ve found that yumma, ommah and omm are all very common ways to say mother. there are loads of different ways to say mother because arabic has so many different dialects. i’ve also found out that ommi el-habiba means my beloved mother which i could totally see damian saying really bitingly if he is fighting with talia.

once again arab people feel free to correct me or tell me to mind my business. but also i think about this a lot like even mama makes far more sense to me than mother or talia

[glitter-stained]

My very personal rating of every lazarus pit fanon side effects I've ever read, ranked from favourite to least favourite :

Tapetum lucidum (the thing cats have that makes their eyes gleam in the dark): that's so creepy and cool, eery in a more discreet way than a full-on glow, idk who hced that first but they are a genius

Contaminated blood laced with the lazarus protein: because our blood renews itself pretty often, this implies the existence of either a lazarus organ that continues to pump the lazarus protein in the blood, or, more probably, the contamination of one of the blood producing organs, maybe of the bone marrow, by the Lazarus pit. Like imagine the Lazarus Pit changing you down to the inside of your bone... The implications are so fascinating I'd love to read more about it.

Altered dna: this doesn't make sense, how does the magical healing pit change your dna, I love it so much, tell me more about the magic gatorade that rewrites dna

Accelerated healing/enhancements: what's funnier, that the pit gave Jason metahuman abilities like being able to withstand a meteorite and going toe-to-toe with Deathstroke (the wiki's words, not mine) and it was just never discussed, or that nothing Jason went through gave him these abilities that he really shouldn't have and he still does and it was just never discussed? I don't know but still, that stuff is top-tier

Glowing green eyes: on the one hand, eyes that glow when the person is feeling intense negative emotions (even better it's not just rage, like, imagine having a flashback or nightmare or getting fear toxined and their eyes glow and people think they're about to attack but they just scream that'd be so cool) but on the other hand, I feel like the colour is too limiting. Sure, Ra's or Riddler can fuck with the glowing green but come on, my girl Cass deserves eyes that glow gold (like the gold from the Batgirl suit). Jason deserves to have glowing red eyes. Cicero says that eyes are the reflection of the soul and while I love the idea of the lazarus pit being toxic, contaminating a part of the person's soul, in comics, a character's colour scheme is an essential part of their graphic identity, and I think altering it to the point of giving it a totally different colour is too much for my taste personally. Like, you are still the same person that you were before the bad thing happened. Yes, it changed you irrevocably, but you are still yourself and you should still have the right to your name and to the colour of your soul.

Lazarus Rage/Pit Madness: so I've seen this one criticized pretty often, often because of how unnecessary, and honestly probably damaging, to the understanding of Jason's character after his resurrection. And like, I agree, but also I've found myself to enjoy the fanon version of the Batfam. Like, I don't like that it's murky and confusing sometimes to figure out which is fanon or canon and that that leads people to judging canon actions from a standard of fanon information, and parts of it can be sexist or racist or classist, but the same can be said from canon, you have to be critical with what you consume. Basically to me there are two batfams and I consume both differently and enjoy both, and in the context of fanon I enjoy Pit Madness. The idea of uncontrollable, alien rage is fun, is angsty, and as someone with intense anger issues I'm telling you writing a lazarus rage episode was one of the most cathartic things I've ever written and it felt so good. I also think part of the upset on the subject is a bit undeserved because I see people complain that "the lazarus doesn't work like that because it didn't do that to other people" as if the way the lazarus pit worked made any sense. You're telling me this stuff healed Jason's malnutrition but it didn't fix his trauma? That it healed the Riddler's brain cancer but couldn't be bothered to fuck with Jason's hypertrophied amygdala and the fucked up connections between his amygdala and hippocampus??! Obviously we can't expect dc to know or care about science that much , but I still have the right to be nerdy about it. Jason went into the pit resurrected by God and with brain damage and Ra's said it was a plague and that could make him crazy, I fully believe he could have gotten Pit Madness even if the others hadn't.

Eye-colour change: that's the same thing as the glowing part but without the fun part, really dislike it. I need to be able to listen to I know these eyes/this man is dead from the Count of MonteCristo Musical while making up Under the Red Hood edits in my head please and thank you

Lazarus Pit brings people back to life: I hate it so much dc stop treating life and death so inconsequentially oh my gosh characters fighting life and death situations should not have a source of immortality right in hand I hate that lazarus resin lazarus toxin stuff they have right now and the idea that the pits can bring back to life plays into that idea so I really dislike it. I understand the appeal, it's the basics of coming back wrong with a side of rebirth in the water but instead of being purified it's being poisoned, but I just can't get over how frustrating it is to see a beloved character die and only be able to say I hope he doesn't come back for his own sake and then he comes back. Urgh.

[celaenaeiln]

I see so much fanon around how Dick left home in his teens — fired as Robin, possibly kicked out, etc. I’d like to learn more about what happened in canon. You seem super knowledgeable about comic canon. Can you give me some pointers about which series/issues of the comic cover that?

Okay so there's three different origin stories about Dick leaving behind Robin to become Nightwing.

Batman (1940) Issue #408

Teen Titans: Judas Contract

Nightwing (1996) Issue #105: Nightwing Year One

In most issues, Dick's departure as Robin was actually pretty tame.

Batman (1940) Issue #408

In Batman (1940) Issue #408, Dick gets shot by the Joker and Bruce is actually really remorseful the whole incident happened. He gets upset because he views Dick as a child and he's worried and sad that Dick got hurt. The possibility that he could've lost him is the reason why Bruce pushes him to leave behind Robin.

Batman (1940) Issue #408

Bruce is okay with Dick leaving at first but later grows angrier without him there. It doesn't help that the media and the entire country was so absolutely furious with Batman due to the absence of Dick, Robin, by his side.

The New Teen Titans: The Judas Contract

In this version, Dick voluntarily leaves the suit because he sees it as the childish version of Batman's partner rather than an adult

The New Teen Titans: The Judas Contract

This is an interesting take on things because in Issue #408, Dick doesn't see the Robin costume as being part of a childish persona, he sees at as being Batman's equivalent. He's more upset that Bruce looks at him and sees a kid. So in that comic, the Robin costume wasn't something Dick can outgrow whereas in this issue, it's considered that way.

Nightwing Year One

Nightwing (1996) Issue #101 is a very different story and personally the one that makes the most sense to me.

Nightwing (1996) Issue #101

In this story, this is the one where Bruce actually fires Dick. He fires Dick for his commitment to the Titans and other responsibilities and feels furious that Dick has other things that take priorities over him.

Nightwing (1996) Issue #101

Not to mention that Bruce actually locks Alfred out of the batcave, knowing that he would never be okay with or accept Bruce's decision.

But the reason I like this is because it ties both the previous comics and what Dick told Roy about Bruce firing him from the action comics.

Action Comics (1938) Issue #613

By that time, Dick was on the verge of leaving because he wanted to become an adult and be seen as an equal to Bruce rather than a child. However Bruce being the actual man-child that he is, decided that it was better to leave before being left behind. And then he got really mad that Dick left which tracks with every version of him.

I know this is confusing as to why Bruce and Dick end up fighting over this given how relatively peaceful him leaving Robin actually was, but it wasn't the fact that Dick was leaving, it was the consequence of him leaving and how Bruce felt after Dick left which caused issues between them.

Nightwing (2016) Issue #7

Bruce didn't realize how much he needed Dick until he left and in his hurt blamed Dick for leaving him which is why the Dick leaving Robin to become Nightwing incident is so heavy and dark and still stains their relationship today.

[usercelestial]

tbh i think a lot of the people saying "well both sides are wrong"/"bt stans are just as toxic" are just not exposed to other perspectives in this fandom. as a buddie fan who's been watching this show since s1, i can safely say that buddie fans have always been toxic. like as fact. to me, to say that bucktommy fans are just as harmful or just as annoying or just as bad as buddies consistently are is just. delusional. indicative of at worst a biased opinion and at best an uninformed one. buddie has been here since s2 and fans have ruthless ever since. bucktommy has been here for 3/4 of a season and for the most part, stay in their lane. i'm sure there are bucktommy fans who suck, like that's just being on the internet, but you have to be blind to ignore how insane buddie fans are and genuinely how much worse they are in comparison.

i don't want to generalize and i think constantly adding that disclaimer is annoying as hell bc obviously i'm not talking about everyone but because buddie has been here for so long and taken up so much mental space of very die-hard, passionate fans, you're going to see much more intensity on that side. after season 5, i had to step away from the fandom and the show because of how frustrating it got. it was annoying to see people swear up and down buddie will be canon by the end of s3-no wait s4-no wait s5-no wait- and ultimately it sucked my enjoyment out of a show i otherwise enjoyed because i got swept up in the Buddie Of It All and forget about why i watch the show to begin with. we've been left to stew in our theories and now we can't tell what canon and what's fanon anymore, and when the show reminds us, the disappointment and frustration kills our hopes.

i was also active in the dan and phil fandom and supernatural fandom, like ik why people think we're annoying and it's because we are. we make everything about the one thing we like, we comment on every post begging for it to become canon, we're violently disappointed when the show doesn't play into our fan theories because we've convinced ourselves buddie is going to happen by the end of the next episode or actually the end of this season or actually maybe the end of the next season. we've torn a part every female love interest, either making them boring or making them unlikeable in our fanon. all that to say is that when people call us annoying, they're telling the truth and when bucktommy fans say buddie fans are toxic, they're coming from a sincere place. i mean we can't even enjoy our own ship because we're so quick to get our hopes up and be let down about something as stupid it becoming canon. who cares if it becomes canon, just like it to like it.

and it makes sense why there's perceived "toxicity" on the bucktommy side. our energy is being matched; the obsession, the passion, the surge in fandom. if you don't like it or even just find it annoying, i suggest you guys look back on your own posts and comments and behaviors towards other people in the fandom and other characters and unbiasedly compare it to the Toxic Bucktommy Shippers you're claiming you hate. if bucktommy fans are obsessive, it's because we've set the stage for that. if bucktommy fans are getting aggro and defensive, it's because buddie fans have been on the opposition and don't know how to turn it off. we've gone from underdog to bully somewhere in the last 6 seasons.

[strayheartless]

Okay, I’m just sounding ideas here and don’t come at me from behind with a baseball bat or anything…

But do we maybe think that Angeal made the situation in the training room worse? Now I’m not saying Angeal’s to blame and I wanna caveat this entire ramble with the admission that I’m not even sure about this take. However, I was thinking about the actual situation like I was breaking down frames of a film (👋🏻 yoohoo! Film degree!) and when you look at it this:

(Credit for clip: Shirrako on YouTube)

It’s Angeal’s sword that breaks. Now, again, not blaming Angeal, Genesis was being Genesis and the whole thing wouldn’t have happened if he hadn’t challenged sephiroth. But there is a line of thinking that suggests that it is Angeal’s lack of trust in his friends that exacerbates the situation.

Fanon aside, there is nothing actually in text that suggests that Genesis and Sephiroth have ever actually taken it too far. Actually apart from that one e-mail from Kunsel:

"It seems every SOLDIER 1st Class has a quirkor three, but I think Angeal has a lot ofcommon sense and is a trustworthy fellow.Let's face it: Genesis never found groupactivities appealing, so Angeal is, in fact,the spiritual leader of SOLDIER.I've got a lot of respect for him, too.And I envy you for getting to work with himso often."

(Source: Fandom Wiki, Final Fantasy Wiki: Mail (crisis Core))

there is nothing at all about Genesis' personality before the accident and degredation at all. We can make general guesses based on what we see of Genesis before that innitial wound, but over all, we do not know. So, why does Angeal stop them?

The obvious answer to this is because Genesis and Sephiroth are literally destroying the training room, he even says "You'll destroy this place," but they've done this before according to Sephiroth and theres no point at shich either of them actually manage to hurt the other. Even when Genesis encases Seph in a ball of fire, he doesn't hurt him, and their swords never aim for flesh.

it would be very easy for Sephiroth to exploit Genesis' weakness' and aim for his vulnrablites.

(credit for clip: Shirrako on YouTube)

As we can see in the above frame, Genesis leaves his left side virtually unguarded. His body is turned to favor his right side, he is quite clearly teligraphing a weakness that Sephiroth does not exploit once. Why? perhaps its hubris, perhaps its trust; who is to say, but what is clear is that, despite the destruction, neither are going to hurt each other.

The problem arises, then, when Genesis allows himself to grow overconfident. He legitimately blasts Angeal out of the fight and goes to defeat Sephiroth himself. Angeal is perhaps alerted to the fact that Genesis has lost some sort of control, but concidering there is not a scratch on either of them, he possibly didn't need to.

What I like about this line of thought is that it works hand in hand with the actual story itself. at the crux of everything it is not just Genesis and Sephiroth to blame for how events unfold, Angeals actions have a greater impact on everything.

When Angeal chooses to get in between the two he is the deciding blow that hurts Genesis, yet it is Sephiroth who is blamed for Genesis' sickness.

When Genesis storms the Shinra building it is Angeal who has left Sephiroth in the dark without answers; yet it is Sephiroth and Zack who have to pick up the pieces after it ends.

in Banora it is Angeals inaction that places Zack in danger and ends with the distruction of his home.

and the most obvious, Angeals death is not just defining for Zack but for Sephiroth too. While it is not talked about in text, Angeals death leaves Sephiroth vulnrable to Genesis' ire, and his own relationship to honour and monstrosity that affects Sephiroth's perseption of himself.

Angeal's decision to not allow Genesis and Sephiroth to come to their natural conclusion creates a consistant feeling of unfinished business. The ultimate question here is, would either Genesis or Sephiroth truly hurt each other. Had Angeal not intervened with his flimsy Shinra issue Claymore (possibly representative of his own morality and honour) Would Genesis have been wounded and would he have felt robbed of the title of hero?

This is all just conjecture and shaky soundboarding. If you have any opinions please feel free to share!

As always be kind and please don't yell or be mean (I am only a little critter I will cry!)