the-dream-beyond

[the-dream-beyond]

Episode 29 - The Science and Soul of Animal Companionship with Dr. Megan Mueller

Dr. Megan Mueller 

Because they live in our households or for children in particular, it can even be almost more upsetting for them to lose that pet than maybe a relative that they don't spend a lot of time with. And I think just for parents to know that, that that's normal that the pets are part of their everyday life, and that is a real distraction in their daily routine...

Nik Tarascio 

There's almost nothing more complicated than having to make decisions for someone else, or something else that doesn't have its own voice that can't speak clearly. And so today's conversation really is about that. It's about our relationships to animals into pets, and these these things that we love so much, but have no idea exactly what they want. Right? It's easier in our life to take care of family when you know, they can verbalize what they need and what they want. But in this case, we're guessing and we're trying not to project too much of ourselves onto what they want. And so today's conversation is with one of the leaders in the field of understanding and studying the human-animal connection, how we are because of it, the impacts it has on us the way that therapy animals affect us. So I hope you're really trying to understand more deeply, how to navigate the very complicated and extremely beautiful relationship that we have with animals. I think you really enjoyed this episode.

Welcome to the dream beyond. I'm your host, Nik Tarascio. I'm a CEO musician, an overall seeker of Truth, inspiration, and simply put, how to live the most fulfilling life possible. Growing up surrounded by extremely wealthy and successful people gave me unique and unfiltered perspectives of those who have seemingly made it that on the dream beyond, we're letting you in on what it really takes to achieve your dreams. What happens when it turns out your destination isn't the promised land you are expecting how to process the lessons from your past while mapping a course to true fulfillment. Let's get started.

Everybody, thanks for tuning in. I'm here with an associate professor of human-animal interaction at the Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine at Tufts University. She's also a developmental psychologist. Her research focuses on the psychology of the human animal bond, particularly amongst adolescents and their families. And she serves as a dedicated board member of Tufts Paws for people therapy animal group showcasing her commitment to enhancing the well being of individuals through the human animal bond. Please welcome Dr. Megan Mueller. Thank you for being with us.

Dr. Megan Mueller 

Thank you so much for having me.

Nik Tarascio 

This is one of my most exciting podcasts I'm going to be doing in a while, like I love all the topics but this one's kind of near and dear to my heart. Because I grew up with pets, and not that long ago found a dog on the street in Nashville. And it just completely changed our world. So really curious to kind of hear your perspectives on how that you know how that human-animal bond changes people or affects people. But before we dive in, I did want to start with as a child, what did you dream you'd be when you grew up. What was that? What was that early dream for you?

Dr. Megan Mueller 

Well, you know, my early dreams were centered around animals as well. So I always thought I wanted to be a veterinarian. For a long time, that was what I thought I was going to be. And I found my way back into the animal profession. But when I got into college, I really developed a fascination with psychology. I think it's so fascinating how we interact with other people and the world around us that I was able to sort of bring that interested animals back into my interests with psychology, but I've always had that passion for animals.

Nik Tarascio 

That's awesome. And how did you know on this path to psychology, when when did the animals sneak back into the narrative for you?

Dr. Megan Mueller 

Well, you know, animals are always there in our lives, right? They have their I think that's the best thing about pets is that they're there for everything. So, you know, it was always in the back of my mind. But when I was in graduate school, and I was studying developmental psychology, and really understanding what is it that helps you thrive, and came across this emerging field of the psychology of human-animal relationships, and I just thought, you know, what could be a more interesting thing to study but how people's relationships with their animals helped to enhance everyday life, and especially for teenagers, how they can really support thriving. A lot of times when we talk about teenagers, we talk about the, quote, bad things that they do. And I just thought that looking at the lens of human-animal relationships really helps us to explore the positive sides of teenagers and of anybody, so it felt like a really nice way of combining those interests.

Nik Tarascio 

I think that's nice to hear for sure. Because it does seem like it's a lot of the jokes of like the terrible teenagers and they're entitled and all that stuff. So I'm I'm curious what what was it about the that age group that specifically was of curiosity to you?

Dr. Megan Mueller 

Well, I think it's such a fascinating age. It's when we're really developing our social relationships. We're really starting to move from our social relationships, the just the family to outside into the world and simultaneously developing a sense of purpose and drive in the world. And teenagers are really passionate about many things, and really figuring out what it is that personally drives them. And I think our relationships with animals are a really interesting window into that, because they are a really important social relationship. But also can be a way that teenagers derive purpose and meaning and feeling a sense of connectedness to the rest of the world. So it's a great environment to study all these different things that are going on the development of empathy, how we connect with other people, how we understand that what our needs and wants aren't the same as everybody else's interaction with animals is a great way to sort of unpack all of that.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, I mean, I think to my teenage years, I grew up with dogs. And I'd say like, I've always had my most loving self around animals, specifically dogs, I feel I still struggle with people. Like, I still find that there's like a little bit of a lack of safety and a real sense of vulnerability of like, This person can hurt me, but I don't think an animal has that intention. Although I think back to when I was, I think it was 19 or 18. And my first girlfriend had bought me a dog for my birthday. And I always like selling I had a dog growing up, like as a, you know, as a teenager and into my 20s that I think back and like, actually, my parents took care of the dog, like, I wasn't really the one taking care of anything. And so on some level might move. I don't know, if I would fail your study, if you were like, yeah, there was one person who really didn't get it, they didn't really connect to the animal. But I do think it's, I've never really been able to frame that out, as I think I've really learned love in the capacity of the human-animal bond. And it's so unique. So what is it about? You know, if you could really explain the human-animal bond, is it as clear as it as it sounds? Or is there more to it, when you explain the science of the human-animal bond?

Dr. Megan Mueller 

There's really so much about it. And what I think is so fascinating is that it looks different for different people and for different animals. Even if you have relationships with multiple kinds of animals, I, I think a lot of you know, when you're talking about with your experience of the sort of feelings of love and safety comes from this idea that pets feel like a non-judgmental type of social support, you know, they they are present, but not bringing their own judgments to whatever the situation is. And sometimes that's what we need. I think sometimes as humans, we don't do a great job of just listening and affirming and maybe not jumping to what are we gonna change? What are we going to do differently, and animals provide a space for that non-judgmental emotional support. And so I do think that's a big part of it.

And it really feels like animals bring their authentic self to the relationship, they're not bogged down in a lot of the other things that we as humans are bogged down in. And so I think for a lot of us, that feels like a really genuine and authentic connection. And so that might be some of the core underlying principles. And then our perceptions of social support are really important, and how we perceive stress and how we adaptively cope with stress. If we feel like we have social support around us, that allows us to better cope with any types of stressors that come our way without getting overwhelmed. So it links to not only that relationship that happens in the moment but also how it might impact how we react to other things in our life.

Nik Tarascio 

But also what what surprised you the most as you as you explored the topic? Was there anything that really was like totally a surprise to you? Or did it all just kind of line up with like, yeah, that'll kind of makes good common sense.

Dr. Megan Mueller 

So, you know, one time I had a reporter asked me, Why do you even study, it's a human-animal bond. Don't we just know the animals for us. And I think that's what I got into the field assuming is that our relationships with our pets are going to be universally beneficial. But in fact, that's it's really not the case. Just like any other relationship, there are so many things that can impact it, whether it's the quality of that relationship, the time that you spend with a pet, other types of pressures, do you have access to food? Do you have access to affordable veterinary care? And so I think the thing that surprised me the most was how complex these relationships are, and that they're not just a panacea for everything that ails us, that we have to think about.

What are the things about relating these relationships with pets that are good and beneficial? Where are their challenges and how can we help people overcome those challenges and sort of normalize when there are challenges such as caring for a sick pet? That That doesn't make the relationship any less valid, but then we have to help people and support them through that relationship. So it's just much more complex than I think I really realized when I got into the field. But on the other hand, it makes it much more interesting. And I think it provides us the opportunity to help people and animals if we start to understand what some of those complexities are, one of

Nik Tarascio 

the probably the most complex things I could imagine, for me, as it relates to Athens probably for a lot of people is it's like the first interaction, I imagine for a lot of people with death. Right? It's like the, as children, we kind of see that and we work with that. Is that is that some of the stuff you've looked at in your studies as far as how that affects children? How it affects teenagers?

Dr. Megan Mueller 

Absolutely, that's the thing that nobody wants to talk about is the hut. Aren't we often outlive our pets? And what does that mean for our relationship with them? I think for children in particular, it's actually a really important developmental opportunity till burn about death as part of the normal life cycle. And to begin to understand what those feelings mean, I experienced that with my own children, having the loss of a pet, and how that actually prepared them later on for when their grandfather passed away, that they had a conception of what this meant, what it was going to be to have that loss. So I do think for children, it's a really important experience, we shouldn't view it as just a downside to having a pet that it actually does help with practicing managing these feelings. I think for adults, one of the big challenges is, we actually as a society do not have a lot of great ways of dealing with death, we try to pretend like it doesn't happen. And so really making sure that we have the space for having some rituals around remembering a pet, understanding that it is normal and appropriate to have grief around the singer pad that's similar to grief round losing a human, and tried to provide some more support for that. So you know, while it is certainly not a pleasant experience for any of us to go through, I do think it's an area of growth for a lot of us to learn to be able to manage those feelings in our productive lives.

Nik Tarascio 

How did you get your own family? If you're comfortable sharing it? How did you frame it in preparation for that moment? And then what were some of the rituals on the backside that allowed your family to really connect with what was happening? Yeah,

Dr. Megan Mueller 

it was. So it was our guinea pig actually, who passed away. And for my son, who was three at the time, it was definitely the first time he had experienced death. So it gave us the opportunity to talk about what that means, right. So that she he kept asking a lot of questions about When is she coming back? And is she coming back? And where is she. And so it was a lot of sort of repetition of those types of things, talking about what it meant for that animal to die. And then on their types of rituals, like thinking about the things that we remembered about her and what we enjoy doing with her draw things about her and having sort of a burial, and that those types of things can help, especially for children, bring some kind of closure to it. And that sort of gave him the structure for thinking about it when his grandfather passed away that he was able to connect that experience he already had with our guinea pig. And you know, talk about, oh, you know, this is what happens because my grandfather died, this is what it means. And I think he was better able to process. That's not to say it wasn't hard still, but he had some of the structure to think about.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, that's, oh, that's got to be a very confusing thing for a three year old. Absolutely.

Dr. Megan Mueller 

I mean, it's confusing for us as adults to and she says, you think about three year old or even a five or six year old who's just grappling with that. And the other thing is interesting about pets is that because they live in our households of for children in particular, it can even be almost more upsetting for them to lose a pet than to maybe your relatives that they don't spend a lot of time with. And I think just for parents to know that, that that's normal, that the pets part of their everyday life. And that is a real distraction in their daily routine. So just to sort of accept that and help them through it.

Nik Tarascio 

I have friends that have gone through situations where their pets got really sick, and they had to kind of make this call of like, How much am I willing to invest in this circumstance? And it's, you know, again, it's a family member for all practical purposes. As you said, they live in the home. How have you seen that come up in conversations of people kind of facing that, like I'm not an endless resource? Where am I actually being? am I lacking compassion by keeping the pet alive and this discomfort versus saying Wait, maybe it's time to go home?

Dr. Megan Mueller 

This is one of the big challenges that we have as guardians of our pets is that unlike human relatives that we might be helping through this process. They can't tell Tell us how they're feeling and what their wishes and desires are. So it puts us in a difficult position of trying to understand what their quality of life is and what they understand about the situation. So it's one of the most stressful parts of end of life for, for pet owners, and making a decision of adding these in Asia can be really challenging, especially if it's not crystal clear, there might be some situations where yes, it's completely obvious. But often, it's this sort of gray area where you're talking with a veterinarian who, who knows a lot about what's going on with the medical situation, but might not be seeing what's happening with the animal on a daily basis. And what has been found in the research is that making this decision about euthanasia is one of the most stressful parts of the loss of pet, perhaps even more so than the actual loss of the pet. And that there might be feelings of guilt or grief around making this decision. And so it's really, it really is a challenge and can be a burden on people to, to try to feel like they're doing everything that they can for this beloved pet, but also not keeping them alive past the point at which their quality of life is diminished. And that's a very hard decision to make. And it's really, it's this double edged sword of you, as the person who lives with this animal is probably has the most information to make this decision. But it's also the hardest to get perspective on because this is a member of your family. Have

Nik Tarascio 

you found that? Like, are there any best practices, belief systems anchors that I mean, I understand there's really no way we could ever know what the animal actually wants. But I would also assume that there's probably something that has worked better where you say, Look, I've observed someone processing this better than someone who said, I'm just gonna ride it all the way to the end, or like, Hey, we're cutting it off right now.

Dr. Megan Mueller 

I think it is really important to have a veterinarian that you have a good relationship with who can give you the information that you need. So you feel confident in making this decision. Not that the veterinarian is going to be the one telling you what you should or shouldn't do, but giving you information. So you feel like when you've made that decision, you can feel confident that you did the right. I think that's the most important part is feeling comfortable with that decision. I think the other piece that's important to remember is that animals don't perceive like the lice in the same way that we do. And so sometimes it's hard to not put our human conception on them. And that's just hard to understand, you know, how much are they suffering in the moment? For what type of extended lifespan and understanding that that calculus might be different for an animal than it is for a human?

Nik Tarascio 

That's yeah, that's a great perspective. I imagine we often do that we project our experience on to

Dr. Megan Mueller 

us, I mean, anthropomorphism is a really interesting concept when we're talking about human animal relationships, and how we humanize their behaviors and their actions. I mean, even if you think of everything from children's movies that depict animals, and are they depicting them as people who are standing upright and dressed in human clothes, are they talking? What are they saying? Well, you know, we put all of our human conceptions on to animals, and on the one hand, it can elevate the status of animals in society. Because if we feel like animals are closer to us more like us, we're more likely to invest our time and resources in caring for them, because they're part of our inner circle. On the other hand, are we assuming things about them that are not true? And are we assuming that they had the same wants and needs and desires as we do? So it's a really interesting, double edged sword.

Nik Tarascio 

So now we're gonna I mean, I appreciate we started on the dark stuff, right? We went right to the hard conversation, and most people like I'm avoiding this reality as much as I can. When my dog licks me, does he love me? Or is it the salt?

Dr. Megan Mueller 

That's a great question. And you know, I honestly don't know the answer to that. That's a great,

Nik Tarascio 

glad you don't know, actually, I'm glad if you because I'm, like, worried someone's gonna say, No, it's just the salt, right? I really like to that point of, you know, I do see it as like, this is an expression of love and care. And then on some level, like, I actually don't care what it is, if it makes me feel that way. Good enough. That narrative, it seems to serve my, my experience of being connected to him. But to that end, I think that so many of us have our funny ways of speaking to our pets, and we do interpret their behaviors in certain way. Is there any way to really better understand where pets are and I will asterisk with this, I recently spoke to a pet communicator. And again, I know that that's out there probably does not fit in the world of psychology or science at all. But have you seen anything that from a scientific perspective, you could say actually, there are better ways to understand what this means and is it the vet or is it somebody else?

Dr. Megan Mueller 

Yeah. That's it. That's a great question. And there's a lot of great dog behavior folks and Tapi eater folks out there now who are doing wonderful work of trying to translate what we know about animal behavior to methods that the public will be able to consume. And so there's just a lot of great research going on right now. Now, my research is more than the human behavior side of things. So not as much of an expert on animal behavior. But folks who are experts in this area, the science is just incredible. That's really developing about how we view different types of behaviors, what different behaviors actually mean, you know, something that a dog is doing that we might interpret as one thing, I'll give you just a quick example, which is yawning. So typically, when we see someone a person yawn, we assume that they're tired, right, or they've caught a yawn from someone else. And with dogs yawn, and commune, a number of different things, including stress. So something you know, we have to be careful about interpreting behaviors we see in animals as human behaviors when they're not. And a lot of these behaviors are doing just great work on translating these behaviors for the general public, the general pet elders so that they can better understand their pets. I think a lot of people really want to understand their pets and giving people the science tools to do that is important. And then there's a lot of really interesting brain research going on right now about dog cognition. And you know, what dogs are perceiving what that means in terms of their brain activity. And there's just some fascinating science going on around just what's happening in their brains.

Nik Tarascio 

That's really cool. I'm gonna, I'm gonna look more into that stuff, for sure. And I, I think, kind of going forward from I thought we were gonna stay out of the darkness. But now we're gonna go back a little bit to the darkness. When I'm curious about like, depression, anxiety, you know, a lot of the conditions that we're seeing like there's a huge mental health crisis, obviously, at least in the US, probably in other parts of the world as well. What is the science saying about the effects of pet ownership having a pet in your home as it relates to those kinds of things?

Dr. Megan Mueller 

Yeah, I mean, that that is the question that a lot of people are interested in, basically, can pets help support our mental health. And what's interesting is that their research is complicated about it, we see some research that shows that having a pet might be beneficial. But we show other other research shows that it's not. And what's really fascinating about this is that we don't have the ability to do studies like we would with, you know, say, a new drug for depression, we're going to do a randomized control trial where half the people get the drug, half the people get a placebo. And we see what the differences, because you can't do that with X ray, people want to decide whether or not they have a pet and what type of pet they have. So it's hard to get around the fact that people who have pets may be fundamentally different for people who don't. And that people may also choose to get a pet because they're feeling lonely, or they're feeling anxious, and they feel like having a pet might help them with that. So then if you look at well do pet owners have higher anxiety than those who don't? That's kind of muddling the effect findings. So the research is just a little bit less clear on that. And what we're looking at now is, can we have more longer term studies where we can see over time, what are the effects of having paths. But you know, a lot of the mechanisms are there. We think that especially for people who are living alone, who might be feeling lonely, having a companion in the household could help reduce that loneliness. For folks who might be anxious about being out in the world by themselves having you know, a pet with you might help with that. So it's just a little bit more of a complicated answer than I think maybe the general media would lead you to believe that getting a pet will solve all of our mental health challenges.

Nik Tarascio 

In your personal experience, or just, you know, even if it's a non professional perspective, are there times when you'd say someone should definitely not get a pet if it because I do think a lot of people are trying to solve something or fill a hole or find something that they don't currently have? The times you'd say, Absolutely not do not do that, or I'd recommend not. Yeah,

Dr. Megan Mueller 

that's a really interesting question. I don't know if I have had sort of a hard and fast answer about that. But I do think that thinking carefully about how a pet would fit into your life is always really important to make sure that expectations meet reality. I think that's that's where we want to be careful is that when we're maybe putting a little bit too much on the path that we're we might be expecting them to completely cure us of whatever it is that that that might not be a reasonable expectation and understanding that that's are also a lot of work and that you know, there's some stress associated with it. So I don't think that I would ever tell anybody not to get a pet but just to sort of think through the decision carefully to make sure it's a good fit for their Life,

Nik Tarascio 

moving into the therapy animal side of things. You know, again, I'm curious to hear more about the program, first of all, so we could start there, if you could tell us a little bit about what you are doing with what was the program called again.

Dr. Megan Mueller 

So our program at Tufts is called tufts Paws for people. But we are a chapter of this national organization, Pet Partners, which is a big national group that has done a lot of work of really trying to professionalize therapy animals so that we know that teams are well trained, that they are safe and have all these health requirements. And there's been just a huge amount of work over the last several decades in turning Animal Assisted interventions or, you know, interventions involving therapy animals into a really high quality therapeutic practice. And so therapy, animals work in all kinds of different settings, they might work with mental health professionals, they might work with physical therapy, occupational therapy, there are just so many different ways in which therapy animals can be integrated into different types of interventions. And what's great about therapy animals is that they are so motivational, that, you know, it's so much more enjoyable to engage in whenever that therapeutic activity is when there is an animal there so really helps to increase enjoyment and whatever the intervention is, and really motivate people to continue with it.

Nik Tarascio 

What's some of the examples of applications where you've seen great success?

Dr. Megan Mueller 

So there, there have been a lot of? Well, what's really interesting is the biggest request we get right now is for college stress relief programs, college students are feeling the effects of the pandemic and stressors. And having these programs where during final exam period, we bring in therapy animals, and you know, into the library, and when they're wanting to take a break from studying, they can come interact with the animals, and just as a way of de escalating the anxiety in a, you know, short, but I think, really powerful way. So those programs are really popular. There are lots of therapy, animal programs that work in hospital settings that will go around to folks who are staying in a hospital, which is obviously a very stressful situation. And even just that short contact with a therapy animal can help reduce that momentary stress or anxiety.

Nik Tarascio 

If I had therapy animals in my college, I probably wouldn't have dropped out,

Dr. Megan Mueller 

right? I mean, it's a lot of in college, a lot of students are really missing their pets at home, that that was an important way of how they coped with their stress and anxiety that's now not with them. So that can be a nice little bridge for them.

Nik Tarascio 

How is the therapy animal trained? I mean, I'm curious what what what does a therapy animal in that context doing that a, an untrained animal might not do?

Dr. Megan Mueller 

So um, mostly the evaluation process is around? Well, first of all, does that animal enjoy interacting with people, that's the first part of it, you really want them to enjoy being with lots of different people a greeting them, but also that they are used to things like hospitals have been something like the floor is very unusual for a dog the different smells, the different machines, sights, sounds, noises, that they're accustomed to all of that. So it's not stressful for them, and that they're behaving in a common or appropriate way. And then also, the handlers screened as well to make sure that the handler is really being a good partner for their dog or their other animal. And, you know, I think what's great about these trained therapy animals is that they really interact with people in a calm and safe way. And maybe having your own dog with you would be great. But, you know, you think about maybe bringing your dog into a hospital setting with lots of stuff going on, you really want to have a dog that's used to that, say, with regards

Nik Tarascio 

to, you know, I've heard a lot of the belief that people are generally mirrors to us, like, if we're triggered by someone, there's some aspect of then we, you know, we don't want to admit in ourselves versus really adore someone, maybe there's an aspect of us that we really appreciate about ourselves, our animals mirrors in the same way, have you found on the bond that that ends up being part of it? Or is it very different? That's,

Dr. Megan Mueller 

that's a really good question. I wish I had a true scientific answer for that. It would be fascinating to look at that, from a research perspective, that's sort of always where my brain is go. I do think that because of the anthropomorphism we do tend to sort of project things on to animals because they're not able to as clearly correct us as maybe other people are. So there is that I don't know if I would call it a danger. But just something that we have to watch out for that when we're projecting our feelings onto animals. What does that need for that?

Nik Tarascio 

What about, like, horses? For example, I've heard a lot more lately about things like Equus training or something like that, where they're putting people in these contexts where they're saying, Hey, we're going to train you how you're showing up as a leader. Have you have you interact with that stuff at all.

Dr. Megan Mueller 

So I'm a lifelong verse person. So always write out verses, verses are fascinating, because they are just extremely intelligent, very social creatures that have very complex social behaviors with each other, but they're very different from dogs. And they obviously don't live in our homes. So they're just, you know, I could talk for hours about horses, but anyway, they are, they are definitely being integrated more into therapeutic settings. So, therapeutic services with horses are really popular, especially physical therapy, occupational therapy, just the movement of a horse can be really a really powerful therapeutic tool, but also mental health treatment as well. So I think when you're sort of referring to is that there is some work around how vs behavior might reflect our behavior. And there are some programs that do a lot of work in that area where for example, if you walk towards a horse with really expressing body language, they're going to hightail it out of there. And they, they will see that and they will reflect that back in your ear. And so it can be really interesting for people to better understand their own behavior, and also how versus interact with each other. And what that might tell you about what you're projecting into the world,

Nik Tarascio 

talking about society as a whole, like one of the bigger things I was very curious about is obviously animals get treated very differently in different societies, different parts of the world, is there any correlation between how the human animal bond has developed in a place and then like the societal stability or structure or anything like that,

Dr. Megan Mueller 

this is a very timely thing to talk about, because I think our field of human animal interaction is really starting to have a reckoning with the fact that the field has been built on a very western perspective of what it means to have a pet and what the ideal human animal bond should be. And I think we're starting to recognize that there is a lot of cultural about variation and how people interact with animals, that doesn't have to be a good or a bad buy. It's just different. And that there's different ways that people respect and interact. So I wouldn't, I would hesitate to say that the way animals are treated sort of directly correlates to certain values in a society, but it is, it's just different. And we have to be careful about putting our lens about the human animal bond onto a context where it may not be appropriate. Or we may not fully understand what that relationship looks like, ya

Nik Tarascio 

know, the West likes to think we got it all figured out exactly as to follow perspective, but it's like, I've not spent time in Asia, I'm very interested in going over the next year. And I have heard people say, like, it's very different seeing how dogs are treated in parts of Asia, where they're just running around the streets. And here we are, like, God forbid, they eat a grape. You know, right, we're gonna have a whole big thing. And they're like they're eating garbage over there. But you know, again, I don't understand it. And it's an interesting lens to say, I don't know, maybe we've imposed something on them that they didn't really necessarily ask for. Well, I mean, they can't ask for it anyway. But Right,

Dr. Megan Mueller 

right. Yeah, exactly. And, yeah, there's just so much I think approaching it with a curious mindset is really the way to go. Because sometimes there are aspects of different ways of interacting with animals that maybe we haven't considered before. And I think what I've learned is that there's different ways of respecting animals in different circumstances.

Nik Tarascio 

Are you seeing, you know, when you're saying this is a timely conversation? Are you seeing more openness to these different perspectives?

Dr. Megan Mueller 

Definitely, or at least I think within the scientific community, in trying to expand our perspectives, and make sure that the science is not based on just one perspective on AI, but I think it also translates to maybe the wider world. I mean, obviously, we're in a very challenging place just in the world right now, where there's a lot of division. And I think it's worth considering how connection around animals may be a way of connecting people together around a shared interest or a shared a shared connection, that who may not otherwise be interacting with each other, that that pets or animals in general can be a really great social facilitator, and it's some common ground to build the types of relationships that you might need to interact around are difficult issues.

Nik Tarascio 

So kind of the, you know, the whole point of the show for me has been around how do we cultivate fulfilment? And are there any studies that have really correlated life fulfillment with pet ownership and pet relationships?

Dr. Megan Mueller 

I wish that there were because I do think that a sense of purpose and as you said Silman is this sort of underlying thread that we see it all lot of these relationships and I don't know of anybody who's really measured that or captured that. But even just thinking about the mindfulness aspect of say, taking your dog for a walk for a moment, you're not with your face in your phone, and then you're experiencing the world with them. And can they help us live a little bit more in the present? So I would love for somebody to do that, that study that I do think animals have a lot to teach us in terms of being in the moment and not letting all of the noise get to us. Yeah,

Nik Tarascio 

I mean, my story of getting my dog was my fiance and I were just driving in Nashville on this little puppy ran in front of our car. And long story short, we ended up keeping the dog and bringing him home. And what was interesting is I played it back had it not happened in such a magical way. And it was this very ridiculous long, two days story adventure, I think it would have been the kind of thing where I would have gotten the dog. I never had a puppy before they realized puppies and dogs are very different animals. Yeah. So suddenly, I have this puppy in my apartment. And he's wrecking everything and peeing on the floor. And I went from like, I've made it, I'm at the peak of my freedom in my life in New York City. And suddenly, I'm like, I'm on a three hour clock with a bladder that just wants to be on everything. And it was this huge transition of like, wow, I lost most of the freedoms I had before. And yet found so much joy at the same time. Yeah. And it like it opened up that curiosity of it's, you know, the more the more people talk about the West, and like our pursuit of this insane level of freedom, and optionality, but it doesn't seem to correlate to fulfillment and happiness. I'm like, I wonder if on some level, giving away some of that freedom was actually the thing that made me happier, because now I had these constraints, and I had limitations. And I reduced my options. And I was so much happier. So I've been thinking a lot about that, as you know, thank God, I found him, versus I had gotten him from somewhere that I could have brought him back to, because I would have been like, damn, I didn't realize I didn't want this right now. But it was honestly one of the most amazing transitions, both for me personally, and in my relationship to my fiance. It's like we really, we really shifted in saying, Oh, now we have this beautiful common goal of also taking care of this, this little guy, and he's so sensitive to our emotions. She and I are like, if we're like a little amped up, he will leave the room. He's like, I cannot be here for this. And so I would love to see more science on this stuff. But I mean, I think the the common sense and the practical approach do seem to dictate that most of the people I know anyway, with pet seem happier for having them even during that, even on the other side of that hard transition of like, I did not anticipate how difficult this was going to be.

Dr. Megan Mueller 

Sure, I think that's a great perspective, because there's something to be said for where we spend our time. It's is where our values are. And there's something about setting that time caring for the animal that feels like sort of a shelling valley to hatch.

Nik Tarascio 

And so all that said, I mean, you're obviously doing some really cool work. And it sounds like the young version of you will be super happy with where you ended up. What is your dream beyond at this point?

Dr. Megan Mueller 

Well, I think to really continue to understand what these relationships are. But I think the most important part about doing research in this area, it's how can we use what we're finding to make people and animals lives better? So I think that's where sometimes science falls short as we we really ask these questions, and then the answers just go into the void. So how can we use the scientific tools that we have to improve the lives of people and animals, that's really the goal. I mean, that's why we're all doing what it is that we're doing. So really trying to keep that in mind. And, and then I think also, you know, I'm a scientist, so I'm really pragmatic. Sometimes we get bogged down in the details of the science, but also trying to remember all of us that there's something about the magic, I think it's relationships, that's what makes them so powerful, and making sure that we remember that that's a really important piece of the whole picture. Yeah,

Nik Tarascio 

that's, that's fantastic. Well, I, I took a lot from this, I'll, you know, just some of the big takeaways for me are really going back to that chance to be intentional about death and loss. And, you know, still find presence in that and experience it fully and find a way to ritualize those experiences after they've happened and really take the gift that comes along with it. And really this idea that we we can never truly know what our pets want. That drives me nuts. I imagine it drives so many people's nuts, but you're right. I've never really thought about that. It is a greater sense of responsibility for me to choose what I do for my pet than what I would do for a family member who at least can verbalize something and tell me what their desires are. That is a that is a great challenge. And the reminder of having a great vet, it's something that I always saw a vet as like a technician, Is it convenient to just change my oil like let's get it done. And really to see a vet as a person who really is a partner in helping you navigate this uncredible responsibility for something that most of us love with a capacity that we, you know, maybe only reserved for our children. And the beauty of the you know, that reminder that despite all the science, I think this isn't just for, you know, the pet and human connection or the animal human connection, but I think it's in most scientific places is to not lose the magic. I love that I love hearing someone who's in the world of science, saying, let's not forget that this is about the magic. And we're all just doing our best job to try to quantify the magic in a way that we can understand. But we'll never be able to fully fully decipher it. And so to allow the space for that, and the potential for that. So this is really phenomenal. And again, it's I'm gonna give my dog a hug. As soon as we get done with this. Right, there's, yeah, yeah. I appreciate the work you do. And I'm really excited to see what other what other research comes to the surface that can help validate some of this stuff. And for anyone who's interested to learn more about the research lab, we're gonna put the link in the show notes. And you could also learn more about the therapy animal group as well with one of the links that we'll put in there. And Meghan, again, thank you so much for being here. I hope everyone has just felt a little bit more love for the pets that are in the animals that are in their life.

Dr. Megan Mueller 

That's great. Thank you so much for having me.

Nik Tarascio 

I really appreciate it. Our pleasure. Thank you for listening to the dream beyond. I hope that you received whatever message or inspiration you were meant to get from today's episode. I had a great time recording it for you. If you love the show, please take 30 seconds to subscribe rate, and review it. That really helps get the word out. And if you want to connect with me, you can find me at:

instagram.com/niktarascio

linkedin.com/in/nikTarascio

youtube.com/nTarascio

[the-dream-beyond]

Episode 28 - Welcoming Your Authentic Self with Michelle Welsch

Michelle  Welsch 

I think you have to have an area of that where you can just play and make messes and create and feel okay, making mistakes and not nailing it. But I do think that having a goal and when you have a big dream that you really want to reach, setting that and working backwards matters.

Nik Tarascio 

Today's conversation really centers around the permission to be your truest self, one of the great Regrets of the Dying is wishing they had given themselves permission to be themselves earlier in life, not waiting till the end. And today's guest really has incredible perspective on what it is to find your tribe, build your tribe, give permission to be your truest self, to stop sleepwalking through life and to allowing a place to shape you. Maybe you felt called to be somewhere else. Maybe you haven't given yourself permission to do that either. And so she has a lot to say about this. I hope you really enjoy the conversation.

Welcome to the dream beyond. I'm your host, Nik Tarascio. I'm a CEO, musician and overall seeker of Truth, inspiration and simply put, how to live the most fulfilling life possible. Growing up surrounded by extremely wealthy and successful people gave me unique and unfiltered perspectives of those who have seemingly made it through on the dream beyond, we're letting you in on what it really takes to achieve your dreams. What happens when it turns out your destination isn't the promised land you are expecting how to process the lessons from your past while mapping a course to true fulfillment. Let's get started.

Hey, guys, I'm here with a business coach, community builder and an artist. She's worked with Fortune 500 companies, students in Nepal and business owners around the world. She's also the co founder of learning house, a Community Learning Center in Nepal. And with trading in psychology and a deep understanding of communities. Her work emphasizes research based strategy and thoughtful communication. Please welcome Michelle, welcome to the show.

Michelle  Welsch 

Thank you. Thank you.

Nik Tarascio 

Thanks for being here. So we made the time workout.

Michelle  Welsch 

Yeah, we figured out the time zones. Yeah.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, I'm assuming there's no time changes in Nepal. Is that right? They don't do like daylight savings time and all that stuff.

Michelle  Welsch 

Oh, you're suffering through the hour difference. And it's same for here.

Nik Tarascio 

I want to say not on topic, but that's so antiquated. I think Nepal has it right. Actually, everybody else basically has it right. So hopefully, we'll catch on. So when you were little, What did you dream you'd be when you grew up.

Michelle  Welsch 

Oh, goodness. So I grew up in, in Colorado. I was in for age, I had a horse, I was involved with a lot of activities, sports, I think I was always so busy that I didn't really have time to think what I wanted to do, or who I wanted to become, but I was so active and so involved. And I do think that that contributed to who I am today and the way that I see the world. I had a lot of experiences very early on. And I think that created a platform for me to ask questions and be curious.

Nik Tarascio 

I'm always intrigued about this idea of people that were just like, there's things in front of me that must be dealt with, right? Like whatever that is, I'm so busy doing I don't really have time to start planning for the future. Yet. You talk about strategy. Right? He talked about doing strategy. So I'm curious, like, how did how do you equate that like I'm in the moment I'm in the present, I'm enjoying what I'm doing versus the strategic thinking aspect that's come into your life.

Michelle  Welsch 

So the strategy actually came from my master's degree. So I did my Master's in Social Work at Columbia with a critical focus. And the big thing that they emphasize is, you can't practice you can't be a clinician without doing something that's evidence based or has a research backing to it. And when I started to work in marketing and branding and businesses, I took that same approach of you can't just do something because you think it could work? What are those proof points that you can take to say that, hey, we tried this before with this audience, or we tried this before with this similar business, and it worked, or it got these results. And that's how you can work more effectively. Not just kind of throwing a dart and hoping Yeah, you know, I think this could work. But, you know, can you increase your odds of success by doing something intentionally and really thinking carefully about the bigger picture before you take smaller actions?

Nik Tarascio 

How do you balance that like throwing darts is fun. I mean, that's been my life experience. I think like it's cool to do strategy and measure it all out and go like I've got the plan and I want to execute but I also love playing the game of throwing the darts. See what happens. Do you still allow space for that in your life?

Michelle  Welsch 

1,000%. If you see the wall behind me, I think I think you have to have an area of that where you can just play and make messes and create and feel Okay, making mistakes and not nailing it. But I do think that having a goal and when you have a big dream that you really want to reach, setting that and working backwards matters. So if you really have something, say you want to run a marathon next year, and you just kind of throw a dart, and sign up for, I don't know, whatever a marathon is in your city and wake up, you know, the next day and say, I'm gonna go, it's not going to work.

But if you set the plan, and you create, okay, this week, I'm going to run a mile next week, it's going to be this, this this, then you're going to have a higher chance of succeeding in that goal than just kind of winging it. So I do think that there's a balance, I think, having that energy and that instant feedback of trying something and does it work, what happens? That's important, because that builds passion and excitement and curiosity. But if you're playing the long term game, you know, in terms of endurance, and perseverance, and staying optimistic, it is important to have some sort of plan or some sort of framework that you can play around.

Nik Tarascio 

And so how do you know when you've gone too far in strategic thinking, versus when you've gone too far into just dark throwing randomness? Like what are the signals? How does your life show up differently when you hit that limit?

Michelle  Welsch 

I think you lose that spark. I think there's a moment where it doesn't feel fun anymore, and you lose that passion or you lose that curiosity is my big compass in life is when you're asking questions. And when you're actually seeing the world around you and seeing the textures and the colors and the interactions between people. That's when you know you're in a good place. But I think when things start to get muted, or dull, or to routine, and you're not seeing results, and you're not feeling positive about the work that you're doing, I think that's a pretty big red flag to take a step back and see, wait a minute. Am I on the right track? Is this just automatic? And is it working?

Nik Tarascio 

Well, kind of building on that again, for of all the things that we've talked about on our on our pre call, I'm still so affected, by the way, you uprooted and just moved yourself to Nepal. And for me, it sounds like a dark throwing. I wonder how much strategy was in that. But I'd love to just if you could just kind of tell us more about how did you get from the US to Nepal, how did that happen? What was the plan associated with it?

Michelle  Welsch 

Yeah, so this is interesting, because this has now been over a decade since I first left New York, and I came here. And thank you for giving me this platform to tell my story because it is something that I think a lot of people know, yeah, Michelle and Nepal started the school, but they don't necessarily know kind of all the inner workings and the decisions and the flexion points, and it's never a straight line. And I think we would like to think that it would be so easy as to make a decision and, and throw the dart and move across the world or start something new. In my case, it was just that being curious, asking questions. reassessing, analyzing, taking a step back, taking a step forward, sidestepping.

There was no direct path. I think when I first left New York, I was really looking for something beyond me. I mean, this is I was in my late 20s. I had finished my Master's at Columbia, I did a major career transition from social work into branding and advertising. And I wanted to feel like I was contributing to the world in some way. And so when I set out to Nepal, the plan was to do Everest base camp, and I found some volunteer program online to teach English for a few weeks at a monastery. And one thing led to the next. And I think the difference is I had I had a fixed plan. And a goal of this is what I'm doing with my life. And I'm going to go back to this job. And I'm going to do branding and advertising in New York, and I'm going to become an excellent copywriter.

And these are the businesses that I'm going to work with. If I was so focused on that. I wouldn't have stayed in Nepal. I mean, it just would have been possible, it wouldn't have been in my periphery of thinking of I would have the return ticket, I go back to my flat, you know, on the west side, whatever. But because I was open and curious of wow, this is a world unlike anything that I've ever experienced before and these people, there's this culture, and there are these foods and there are these beliefs. I was so curious, I really felt Like a researcher. And so over time, I just kept asking questions and I wanted to learn more about the culture and I wanted to learn more about the people why do you believe like this? Why do you see the world like this? How come you got educated in you aren't? How can you speak English? And you just kept asking questions, and the questions kept leading to the next thing.

And so there wasn't like a clear cut decision of I'm staying it was, how can I help. And there was a point where I remember thinking, if I don't do this, who is going to, I really had a thought, I don't know if you just firework but sorry. nothing to be ashamed of or worried about this is a holiday season right now. So it sounds like Fourth of July, but it's called TR and we have fireworks exploding outside. No, but I remember thinking if I don't do this, who will. And that was my guiding principle for a long time. But that wasn't always it. That was just in that moment. And so I think when you're considering big changes, it's important to have a very clear understanding of your values and the kind of impact that you want to have on the world, but also to have some sort of flexibility, because we're people and we change. You know, I'm I'm not the same person that I was in my late 20s.

The things that motivate me now are very different than how I was then I don't care as much. How, like, in my early 20s, I cared so much about the way other people saw me and the decisions that I made. And now, it's like, my decisions are so far off the plot of what like a normal, normal person does that. I don't care anymore. It's totally changed the way that I operate. And it's very freeing, actually.

Nik Tarascio 

Oh, there's those explosions. That there's celebration going on outside? That's fantastic. Yeah, I really still, like, maybe it's just because I don't have the courage to do it. I've thought so much about like, could I leave New York? Could I actually, you know, again, I grew up in New York, I've always lived in New York. I've never been anywhere else. Really. I've been I've traveled all over the place as a pilot, but I've never really anchored anywhere else. Was there a fear? Was there any resistance? Did it take you some time to just say I'm going to Nepal in the first place? Or were you just ready? Were you just ready to say like, I'm done here, I'm ready to go somewhere else.

Michelle  Welsch 

It's interesting, because I think I've always felt a little bit like a black sheep. My father was an immigrant, I grew up in a community where it was predominantly white. I remember kids giving me grief because my dad spoke in a very different way. I think I always kind of identified with kind of the outgroup more than the in group. And in Nepal, it was so clear that I was not part of the end group that kind of felt like home, it kind of felt comforting in some way. Of Yeah, I am labeled as the foreigner. And it's so obvious that I'm the foreigner, because I don't, you know, at the time, when I came here, my hair was very long, long red hair and a white woman walking around. And in an area where it was noticeable. I would say that I've had thoughts, the reverse, and maybe this is always grass is greener on the other side kind of predicament. But I have thought what would it be like to have been in one place for an extended period of time because your roots sank.

I mean, you grow deep relationships with people and you understand people and they know you and they know your history and your background. And they've seen all the different evolutions of you, I haven't totally have had that I've had that in different ways. And I've had very close friendships that have carried me through the different stages of my life and through the different places of where I've lived. But I do think that there are, there's different advantages to these ways of living. When you stay in a place, the community that you build and the networks that you can establish they're, they're strong, and they're informed and you understand how things work. And you can create things in different ways that an outsider, somebody who's not from that area who tries to come into your community and build something, they don't get those subtle nuances that you know. And so when you are the person that's going to different places, you do have to adjust and adapt.

And sometimes progress is slower because you have to account for that gap in those distances and understand that your worldview could be very different from those people who have been living there their whole lives. So I do think that You know, there's, on one hand, it sounds exotic and exciting and adventurous and courageous. But I do think that there's something equally valid about contributing to the community that you're from. And looking for ways to get back to the place that you've built routes and and that you're established. So I think, you know, there's it's like apples and oranges really? I don't know if that answer your hands.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, it does. It does. And I'm gonna keep digging. So I'm wondering, it's a curious to me to be in New York and feel like other is really hard because you don't look like no one looks like other in New York, which is a little strange. And I wonder how much it was more like, I actually identify as others so much at this point, that I want to go somewhere where I really do feel like other My identity is other because I just look so different. Was that was that a comfortable feeling to have that stepping into the ball?

Michelle  Welsch 

No. It definitely took me a moment to be okay with it, I think. And it changed so much about me and not the core, but how you dress and how you walk and how you hold yourself and the things that you post online. And the company that you keep all of these decisions suddenly seemed magnified, because I was very aware of, you know, this kind of presence that I had without even doing anything just by existing, you know, I've recognized that so much of being a woman being in a leadership position, just me existing has challenged a lot of cultural norms in the community that I built the school. And thankfully, you know, it wasn't just me, I've had an incredible team, my co founder is brilliant and kind and educated. I think having the right people around you no matter where you are, and whatever you're doing, is really key.

And I think this is one of the biggest takeaways that I took from my time with Seth, working with Seth Godin is really this idea of building your own tribe. Whether it is a business or community, and I think this is why learning house still stands and why it's been successful, because that was such a core value of us was, who are the kinds of students that we want to attract? And what's the environment that we want to hold for them. So what's the space that we want to create for people regardless of where they're traveling from and their backgrounds, and a lot of people don't know. But there's still a caste system in Nepal. So that's also in play in terms of positions that people hold and where they're from, and this kind of thing. And from the very beginning, we decided that learning house is going to be a welcoming space, regardless of where you're from.

So I think having, again, having a rubric or having some sort of idea of what are those values that are really important to you, you know, those non negotiables regardless of where you are in the world, what are those things that you want to surround yourself with? Who are the kinds of people that you want to be associated with? I think these kinds of questions are core, no matter where you are, even if you're switching jobs, if you're going from one job to the next, you know? Is it having flexibility to be creative? Do you want control over your own schedule? Do you want to have people that you can learn from where, you know, everybody has those things? And once you identify those, it's easier to make decisions in terms of what are you going to do and where do you want to go?

Nik Tarascio 

We're gonna come back to building tribe, because I think that's a really interesting topic to talk about. And before we do that, I was curious to know, what was the hardest part of the transition? Like, when was there anything you completely underestimated? Or was it you weren't estimating anything, and you were just flowing? So that's not even really a fair question?

Michelle  Welsch 

Well, both I mean, I think nothing could have ever prepared me for Nepal, coming from New York, I'll admit, I was not the most patient person. And in Nepal, there are definitely processes and lack of systems that force you to wait. And so I learned to be patient here. I remember actually kind of fairly early on, when we were building learning house and when we first started to get going I remember thinking like, even if you get one thing done, that's great. You know, and being the high functioning like type a New Yorker, I always had a list checklist in my calendar was planned out. And I remember thinking like if we get one thing done, that's great. So I think adjusting expectations was a big thing for me. And then all also being okay with uncertainty. In Nepal, anything can happen, literally. I mean, earthquakes, lights can go off. You cannot water. We cook with gas for the stove. Sometimes you can find those. We've gone through everything here.

And I think, coming from, you know, Colorado, New York, something when I go back to visit, it's like, you can drive around and kind of be half asleep, because you know, there's a stoplight and there's crosswalks and you go to the supermarket and you can, you don't even have to talk to anybody. You can just, you know, beat yourself out, check yourself out and leave. It's almost like you can sleepwalk through life. And in Nepal, like even crossing the road is is an endeavor, there's motorbikes and chickens and cars, and there's no lines and there's no crosswalk, you really have to be present and aware. And I think that was a big adjustment to have, like, you can't check out. He can't, he can't disassociate air, like, You got to be present. And here, and there is no forward thinking in the way where you're distracting yourself. You really have to be in the moment. And what are the obstacles right now? And what are the problems right now? And how do we solve them? So I think that was also a big, big adjustment.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, I'm processing that. That's a big thing. It's to hear that it sounds like you can feel more alive. They're, like, good or bad, right? You can just feel the experience of being a human more in a place that will not allow you just to sleepwalk through the day. And I do think New York has done a really good job of numbing people out in a way. It's just it's it is, you know, people say it's such a hard city like it's actually not that hard. You have everything you could possibly want. Really close by button. Yeah.

Michelle  Welsch 

No, but honestly, I think that is, that's the secret to life, if you can force yourself to stay awake and stay open, and observe. A lot of my friends who have left here, that's the first thing that they say is it's so boring. It's so predictable. And I always say like, notice something. What's the thing that you can notice? Like, you got to surprise yourself. Figure out how can you surprise yourself today, whether that's going home from work in a new way, finding a new restaurant, whatever you got to do? Find something that's a little bit different. Otherwise, yeah, you get you fall into a routine, you fall into a routine so easily.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, when you said boredom, I think that's the big one. That's kind of been the indicator for me, most of my life was moving fast enough that I could never be bored. Only to find out that that was really more of an indicator of I couldn't be with myself, I couldn't be with my own thoughts. That's like if I actually had to hear what was going on in my head, it was the worst soundtrack I could imagine, is like a hallway, not this again. So I do think it's a lot of like self medication with activity and things going on in this like, I feel like I'm in the center of it all. And then to kind of unplug and disconnect and go to a place where you write you have to like sit in impatience. Like oh, man, what what's the worst thing that happens if I just have to sit around for a little bit what I got to breathe and relax and do all the things that I've never afforded myself in the past. So it's, it's interesting, as you say, like, actually feel the cringe. I'm like, Oh, my God, it would be so hard for me to be in a place where I have to have that kind of spaciousness, and kind of always be in that presence. Yet. It's sounds like it's closer to what true fulfillment really might feel like.

Michelle  Welsch 

I don't know about true fulfillment. Me, I think we're all searching. And it's, it's it's a process, it's a practice. I do think for me, art has helped with that a lot. Really forcing to see colors and textures and patterns and lines, and being present with a piece long enough to see that a lot of my work, what I'll do is I'll do plein air sketches. So I'll bring a sketchbook I'll wander around, I'll find the scene. I'll draw it and then I'll come back home and paint. And I think learning to see is one of the best things that you can do. And that that looks different for different people. Some people want to write other people want to build things. We just recently had a, like a maker contest at learning house and the winner had made a scarf, but even the attention you know, to knit and sit there and look at the patterns and look at, you know the process that you're doing. I think anything that requires your attention, and in a world where we're so attention starved because we're getting alerts on our phones and I really think it's important to reclaim that. However, You can do it wherever you are in the world.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, as a creative, I agree with that very much, it's to really slow down and pay attention to the process and feel that I really do like to feel like I've made something. And I've actually I wasn't just a participant, I wasn't just a consumer, I actually want to be a creator, always to know I'm contributing something to it. But I do want to back up to you said, I don't know about true fulfillment. I'm actually curious to know more about what is your concept of fulfillment being there? And how do you feel like as you've connected with this community of people, and this different culture? How does fulfillment show up in Nepal versus New York City?

Michelle  Welsch 

So fulfillment has changed for me. If you had asked me a few years ago, I would have said, you know, it's the impact that I made. facilement for me is knowing that I've made a dent, you know, somehow in the universe, since COVID, I guess, I've really started to realize that actually, Silman can be your truest expression of you, however, that looks. And it's not necessarily about what you create, or what you build, or what you make or give, but it's just about can you be your most truest self? Can you be you completely? And like, what you just said, this is one of the hardest things to do, because we, we have so many filters and ideas and, and thoughts of what it should look like, of how success should look like of, of what we should be doing of the boxes that we should be checking, when really it's like, No, how can you peel back all the layers and really ask no, Nick, who are you? If none of this mattered? You didn't matter? Answer it later. But if it didn't matter, how would you show up in the world, actually? And the people that are around you? Would they still love you? I really think you need that's fulfillment. Now.

Nik Tarascio 

I was like, oh, man, I'm not I'm not sure if I can answer who I am right now. But who are you?

Michelle  Welsch 

For me that's fulfillment. Do I think it's amazing that I've created a platform to help people get educated? Yes. Does it bring me so much joy to know, we have students all over the world getting educated and getting degrees and higher education? Amazing, yes. But I've also realized, like, I have a responsibility to myself, as well. And as phenomenal as it has been. And maybe this is because I've done things in reverse. Usually people do their career and then go out into the world and volunteer and do this kind of thing. And I kind of flipped it on its head and did the volunteering and the social. And now I'm starting to realize that like, you being you, is also an incredible service. Again, I don't know if that's what you wanted to hear.

Nik Tarascio 

That's, no, that's I mean, I can't think of a greater invitation than to tell someone or to tell me or anybody, right? The greatest gift you can give is just to be yourself to figure out ways to peel away the layers of the things that aren't yours, you've been carrying, the obligations, the the conditioning, like that's a beautiful, beautiful invitation. I also think like getting to art, I think that's the truest art, right? It's the art that's like, I made it for me, I actually didn't make it for anybody else. I wanted to make something I think Rick Rubin said this, he said, You should make art, that you love so much that you have the courage to share it with others, knowing that they may not like it, right. It's like the it really takes you falling in love with what you've created, to have the courage to push it out into the world. Yeah, and you're doing that so much.

Michelle  Welsch 

And you're doing a disservice by not sharing yet to the rest of us. Because there is only one you. And there is only one person that's going to see the world. And here we use it in the way that you do and bring your experiences to your work and your art in the way that you can. And so by not sharing it, you're cheating us.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, I think that becomes the you know, the parallel for becoming the person that you love so much that you let other people actually witness it right? To really know that like, of course not everyone's gonna like me, but I love this version of me so much that I have to be this every day. I just have to knowing that the I could sit in that discomfort. I could sit in the fact that I may be other at times. And I think it's a beautiful answer.

I'm glad I'm glad you said all that. And I am curious to know how that connects to try building because that seems to be an important nugget of all of this is like going out into the world trying to find the self trying to find out who the self even is allowing a foreign place to potentially knock you loose. Some of the things that may have not been yours in the first place, and then saying, Okay, I want to build my tribe, what is that? Like? What what is tribe building to you?

Michelle  Welsch 

Yeah. So I think that, again, this has evolved for me. And now I can say that when you are your most true self, you give other people permission to be their most true, authentic version of themselves. Coming from a social work background, you know, when we, again, when we first started learning house, it was very much how do you create an inclusive space and do so very intentionally through activities through communication, through values through the books that we stock shelves with through the art that we display through the way that we welcome people when they come into the center. So I think creating communities is very important, because, again, especially in places I don't even want to say like Nepal, and places all over the world, there are communities where people are not encouraged to be themselves.

And people do have to actively hide who they are, or how they think. And so for somebody else to come up and say, I see you, and you're safe here, and you're welcome here, a that could that can transform someone's life, you don't have to be in a in a different country to do that. You can be in your own city, or your town, wherever you live, there are people who don't feel safe to be themselves. And so I think, again, by listening, by asking questions, by being curious, by living in a way that people feel comfortable being themselves around you, I think all of these things contribute. And again, I think I've, I'm kind of an extreme example, you don't have to go to a country around the world to do this.

You really, I mean, wherever you are, however, you know, even in the small way, if it's acknowledging someone at the checkout line at the supermarket, or your barista at the coffee shop, even just recognizing somebody for their humanity and their service and for showing up, you know, these are tough times everybody's having a, having a tough time. But to say like, Hey, you're here, and you're present, and I see you that can really make a big difference in someone's life. You don't know, right? You never know. I mean, you just don't know.

Nik Tarascio 

I'll tell you I'm not that far off from hopefully, hopefully starting a family with my fiance. And I think a lot about tribe building. As you know, it's a very, I think, when people hear that it's like, oh, yeah, building a company, building a community being part of a church group or something like that. But I really think about tribe building as it relates also, to many people try this in the aspect of family like how do I create intentional values and structure to give permission to the people I create? Right? And there's so there's something to that I'm really curious to know more about? What advice do you have for people that are like I'm at a place in my life where I'm ready to intentionally create that community around me, that tribe around me and I don't know how to do it. I don't necessarily have the confidence to do it. What would you say to that person?

Michelle  Welsch 

I would say first, get a journal and start writing. And write about the communities that you feel good in, or you've seen, and you respect or your admire in some way. And get curious, what made you feel good in that moment? What made you feel welcome? What sparked your interest? Why did you even find out about this group? What drew you there? How did you connect? who reached out to you? When you left? How did you feel? And really think about the impact that you want to have? And for you, it's what kind of family do you want to have? You know, what are those values that are important? Is it is it adventure? Is that honesty? Is it spontaneity? Is it passion? Is it art? You know, is it creating? Is it freedom of thought all of these things have? What's the ideal?

And then once you have that on paper, then you can start creating the plan and getting intentional and getting more strategic about, okay, what are the steps that we need to take? If I'm saying that I want to have a community that really encourages truthful, authentic conversation? What are some of the things that I need to put in place for that to happen? Are there safe words are there weekly check ins are there communication workshops that teach people how to recognize and express feelings, you know that you have the goal in mind and then you can kind of set the strategic action and you can just start checking that off. But I think without the awareness and without the idea A, it's like setting off on, we're gonna go climb a mountain, but we're not really sure which mountain or where it is, you got to be able to pinpoint and saying, No, we're going to do that one. But I do, I really think that writing and learning to observe and notice is essential for any entrepreneur, business owner creative. Because once you start identifying, then you can make changes. And this is with your own behavior with businesses with other people. But without that awareness, you can't do any sort of action.

So you know, once you start thinking like, I lat I remember I was part of this community, Creative Mornings, perfect example. Right? It started with I think it started in New York, regular workshops, settings, people would go coffee breakfast, people are welcoming. There's name tags, it feels easy to approach people, you know, figuring out what what were those dynamics of how did I find out about the events? How did I connect with people? After how easy was it to figure out when the next meeting was all of these little details? Those are just tactics, those are strategies. But once you have the umbrella idea of what it is you want to create, I think it's yeah, it's like creating a plan. It's like creating your own trip itinerary. Where we're going to greets for five days, this is what we want to see, this is how we're doing it. Same thing.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, no, I'm inspired by what you shared. Because as you were speaking, I now think I have the central tenet for what I would want my family and my tribe to be. And during the pandemic, I did a music project where I came up with a meaning of a song and I wrote a demo aspect of it, I shared it with other musicians all over the world. So I knew they didn't have any money, there was no income coming in for a lot of performing musicians. So I would say, listen to the track and do whatever you want over the track, I won't edit it, I am going to tell you what it means. And I'm going to show you the base, but you add what you want to add to it. And it actually came out, I could have never imagined what people had done, it was so much better than I could have ever found.

And when you said this idea of like to really give permission for people to be their truest self, like that's the glue for the tribe I want to build, to have a space to have a home where people come in, and it's like, the best gift you could give our home is that you are just being yourself in our space. So thank you for helping me clarify that because it really is that for me, that's my favorite art when you go like, wow, that is so you that is just so you and we don't need it to be me, because I've got that I've already got that handled. So thank you for that you inspire that in this conversation.

Michelle  Welsch 

Amazing, amazing. I like this idea of the song because that's, you know, it's if you get a bunch of creatives in a room and you tell them to wild out, you don't know what could happen. But if you have some sort of silo or creative brief, that allows creative energy to kind of be filtered and channeled in a way like your song, I think that's when really great stuff can happen.

And so essentially, that's what values are, it's that silo, it's that creative brief of in our family, we're going to communicate authentically and truly, and how you do that is up to you. But this is the pillar these are the boundaries. And so the moment where you're not true or you're not communicating that's when we can course correct within this boundary of being kind or whatever else you decide. You know, once you have your creative brief down everything else is is cake. It's easy to and fun to play with. Beautiful.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, cuz I imagined just giving open canvas of just be yourself and someone comes in we're like, actually, we told like that version. We don't like that person. They they they don't get to hang out. They're not playing in our values say you're not wise. I appreciate. Yeah, exactly. I appreciate that. That's a good reframe. So kind of my last question to you is, given all the things you've achieved what do you what's your dream beyond? What do you dream about now for the rest of your life?

Michelle  Welsch 

Oh, no. I'm not done. Um, you know, I, I've, I've been thinking like, what's the magnum opus? What's the big creation? And I do think that, you know, I've a manuscript in the works. So I'm writing and I've been thinking I took some time off this year to kind of just reassess and reevaluate and think how can I continue to create and give? I think the biggest success for me is the fact that learning house can run and I don't have to be there every day managing it, there's a team. And so I think when you create something that's bigger than you and does or require you to nurture it nonstop. That's amazing. It's kind of like learning how to was my child.

And it's been raised, and it's a teenager, and now it's standing on its own, and I can feel proud of it. But I do think that some of the things that I've gone through and some of the lessons that I've learned, there's a, there's gonna be a way where I communicate this. And I don't know if it's going to be verbal or artistic. But I do think some of the lessons that I've learned through this wild journey, I'm going to figure out how to get out to a bigger audience, please do. Thank you.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, please do. That's great. I love that I just I appreciate anybody that's willing to kind of share their battle scars, right, for the benefit of others. So if I could be of any help. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I'm a big supporter and those kinds of things. Well, I'll share some of the kind of the big takeaways for me. And though you didn't, stated in these words, I really love this idea of allowing a place to shape you just going somewhere and just letting the lessons of the messages come through. And it's a little bit like my collaborative song stuff. It's like, don't push me outside of my values, but within the values shaped me as you wish, like it's, I really want to understand the place I am. And I really, I really love that inspiration, just the awareness of all the modern comforts of the world as they allow the sleepwalking through life. Right, it just invites more and more of that sleepwalking, not having to be present and the desire to or the, the invitation to go to places where you can't, and experience all the things, all the pleasures and the joys and discomforts and all those fears that come up. I never really thought about travel that way. But I never liked going to big fancy resorts. It was like I don't really want to go away and just have like, more numbing out, I want to go and like experience stuff, get my hands dirty. So I appreciate that as well as like a frame and an invitation.

Also, it is nice sometimes to go to a really nice resort, but with balance. And I think the you know, the obviously, the biggest piece for me is just the permission by being your truest self giving permission to others to do that. And I'm like, what a beautiful world that would be, if that's what all of us, you know, aspired to be more like is saying like my company, my family, my business, my art, all of it, all of it is designed and expressed in a way that is with the intention of giving people permission to be themselves. So that's beautiful, beautiful sentiment. And I just I appreciate the way you've navigated your world.

Michelle  Welsch 

Thanks for joining us about it. Thanks for listening questions.

Nik Tarascio 

There, of course, and for anybody who's as inspired as I am to learn more about Michelle and her journey, you could reach out to her share a word of encouragement she She said she's happy to connect right? Like, especially words of encouragement, check out her art online. You could find her on LinkedIn and Instagram. You could also check out her website, which is just her name. Do you want to is it Welsh? It's as well. essays? Yes. Okay. Good, because I didn't know. Okay, good. So yeah, you could check out our website, you can check out learning house nepal.com. We'll put all the links in the show notes. So you could you could just see what her journey has been like. And Michelle, again, thank you so much for being here. This is such an incredible conversation.

Michelle  Welsch 

Thank you. Thanks so much. Thank you.

Nik Tarascio  Perfect. I hope everybody enjoyed we'll talk to you soon. Thank you for listening to the dream beyond. I hope that you received whatever message or inspiration you were meant to get from today's episode. I had a great time recording it for you. If you love the show, please take 30 seconds to subscribe rate and review it. That really helps get the word out. And if you want to connect with me, you can find me at:

instagram.com/niktarascio

linkedin.com/in/nikTarascio

youtube.com/nTarascio

[the-dream-beyond]

Episode 27: The Art of Meaningful Gatherings: Insights From Nick Gray

Nick Gray 

I host an event last night. So I was like, Well, you know, there was this one thing I don't know, if you I was like, you have to tell it to me, I need this more than any compliment, I need the critique, it will help me be bigger, better and stronger. Give it to me.

Nik Tarascio 

One of the most important things we can do for our own fulfillment is to bring people together, right and not in a virtual way, in a real way in a real tangible way to be in the presence to be the gatherer of friends and connections. And today's guest gives such a simple, simple framework and formula for being able to do that for being able to remove all the the stresses, the anxiety, the uncertainties of it. And not only that, he's willing to literally help you do it, he will get on a phone call with you just to help you make it possible. So this is going to be a fun one with a dear friend of mine who has helped me understand how better to gather people, and I hope you enjoy our nerding out about the best ways to throw gatherings and just bring people meaningfully together.

Welcome to the dream beyond. I'm your host, Nik Tarascio. I'm a co musician and overall seeker of Truth, inspiration and simply put, how to live the most fulfilling life possible. Growing up surrounded by extremely wealthy and successful people gave me unique and unfiltered perspectives of those who have seemingly made it that on the dream beyond we're letting you in on what it really takes to achieve your dreams. What happens when it turns out your destination isn't the promised land you are expecting how to process the lessons from your past while mapping of course to true fulfillment. Let's get started.

Hey guys, I'm here with author of the two hour cocktail party a step by step handbook that teaches you how to build big relationships by hosting small gatherings. He's also been featured in The New York Times The Wall Street Journal, and New York Magazine called him a host of culturally significant parties. And he's had over 770 5000 watches on his TEDx talk about why he hates most museums. Please welcome my buddy, Nick gray. Thanks for being here. Nick.

Nick Gray 

Thank you. I'm excited to talk about how it's done and gatherings and all that stuff.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, man. And, you know, we have obviously the, the aviation connection as well just wanted to mention that that's one of the ways we got connected. A mutual friend was like, Hey, you're an aviation. He's in aviation, you should know each other. That normally doesn't work. But I was like, actually really like this guy.

Nick Gray 

Yeah, I think I saw you at NBAA one year, or something like that. Yeah. It's a small world in the social world of New York City that has that? Because usually, right, they're two totally separate worlds. And so that was a neat overlap.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah. Yeah, it was, it was cool to meet someone who, you know, I recently did an episode that was kind of on the the portfolio life, this idea that many of us are multi layered and diverse. And that's been something that prior generations would say, don't do that. Put all your eggs in one basket be really good at one thing, but I always appreciated that you're into so many different things. And I've been to your parties, your party is always amazing. The people are always interesting and diverse as well. And so I'm kind of curious to go way back, which is, when you were a little What did you dream you'd be when you grew up.

Nick Gray 

I wanted to own a baseball card shop, I loved baseball cards, and comic books, actually got a job working illegally at a baseball card shop in Dallas, Texas, because I was too young to work there legally. So they would pay me like under the table and baseball cards and comics. So first job I ever had, I think I must have been like 12 or something.

Nik Tarascio 

Amazing. What What drew you to that? What was the bigger dream there?

Nick Gray 

I think it was the business side of it. Of the of that the cards had value and there was money. And it was like building a little bit of like wealth as a 12 year old, like having all these baseball card collections. It was interesting.

Nik Tarascio 

That's really cool. And how does that? How does that relate? I mean, again, I've known you in so many contexts with the party's Museum Hack the books, like it's does that relate somehow? Do you see how that entrepreneurial spirit and attraction to wealth generation has kind of laid into the other things you've done?

Nick Gray 

Now, just like I collected baseball cards, I mean, I kind of think about collecting people and trying to meet the most interesting possible people that I can. And it's something that really lights me up and I'm still I got to have a call this morning with somebody that I sent a cold email this person didn't know me from anybody didn't know any of my friends or anything. But that a long time since I've sent a message like this. And like two weeks later, he wrote back and we got to have a phone call today. And so I love that I get inspired by folks that I can link up with and meet.

Nik Tarascio 

When you think about, you know this transition from baseball cards have wealth to now people have wealth. Was it a glorious journey of things getting better? Were there dark moments where you're like, Oh, I might have miscalculated at times. And they were they were harder times of transition.

Nick Gray 

Definitely in my 20s I didn't have any social life. I was very focused on our family but Business, and working six or seven days a week I loved it. I'm not saying it was like a sad story. But I had like, no social life like, probably didn't even know some but I mean knew one or two guys that I could call to hang out with on the weekend. But even that was hit or miss. And so yeah, I think that time as I look back on it, I say, I don't know if that was the best decision.

Nik Tarascio 

Sure enough. What was the turning point for you?

Nick Gray 

I think eventually, I decided I moved to New York City, with the intent of really making a go at meeting people and having a social life. I was in my late 20s. I don't remember if there was like one particular thing. But it was a general idea, or this probably is not healthy to be living a lifestyle like this. And eventually, something happened. And I decided to move.

Nik Tarascio 

What I've always been intrigued by about you is like, I have a hard time pinning, whether you're an artist or a business person, or like even like a 12 year old self, you're like, oh, there's like an entrepreneurial nature of I want to generate value. But then the, you know, Museum Hack is like such a creative approach to visiting museums. And I think a lot of what you've done and a lot of the ways you've shown up, it's like a real creative endeavor. How do you identify between those two things?

Nick Gray 

I really wanted with museum hacks. So I had this business called Museum Hack that did renegade museum tours at some of the biggest museums in America. And we lead people on these very interesting different unique museum experiences that weren't fun, and saucy and filled with gossip and had very good tour guides. And the art of that was I never wanted it to be a business. It was just a hobby. So it's just something I did for fun. I wanted to get really good at it. And I think that's where everything starts, for me is, is something that I truly want to make for my friends that I would be proud of.

Nik Tarascio 

So putting yourself out there is also something I've seen you do really well. I mean, there's, I still have a little bit of a fear of how much of the kimono I want to open up, right. It's like I want to be present on social, I want to be known for who I really am. But there's always this line that everyone has to choose if this is how much of me is allowed for public consumption. I feel like you go pretty far into the lack of my life's kind of on display, I'll come to your parties. You can see what I'm up to. Here's me celebrating at a waterpark for my birthday has ever been really scary for you. Like I'm kind of under I'm trying to understand how you had the courage just to be like this is all of me, or is there like a secret? Is there a secret box in there that we don't know about?

Nick Gray 

I've been online for a long time a lot longer than most people have. And so I really grew up with the internet and with personal publishing, and so it is an area that I feel more comfortable in. But oh my god, dude, I feel the same way. The first time I got on Tik Tok, I was like this is so cringe. I still Still I post stuff that feels very, very cringe. So it's constantly, constantly exploring for me that Sharon is a way to stay relevant and to stay as part of the discussion. And it is something that I still invest a lot of time in.

Nik Tarascio 

Have you had anybody criticize you? Or have you had people that care about you ever say like, that's too much?

Nick Gray 

I think so. Yes. The other day, I went to the gym. And I had a late night the night before and I didn't eat breakfast. And I was at the gym, and I'm sure I drink a coffee on an empty stomach. And I was just like ripping out some tweets that were mildly unhinged. And someone who I didn't know, wrote back and I like, Bro, are you okay? And I was like, Oh, yeah. Like, I should go outside. I should like, Get off my phone and go outside and walk around in the nice sun fresh air. I think that I am willing to make mistakes and some of my most popular famous reels that have gone viral. The comments are filled with haters, absolutely filled with haters. And if you're not willing for people to make fun of you, then I don't think you'll be successful.

Nik Tarascio 

Have you always been pretty resilient to that kind of stuff?

Nick Gray 

I think so. Yeah.

Nik Tarascio 

It's good parenting, maybe?

Nick Gray 

Yeah, yeah, I had great parents. I'm not sure what it is. I think being online for a lot. Just being online, like on the internet for so long. That certainly helps with museum act. You know, I would pass out feedback forms at the end of the night. And I would be you know, you hear Thank you amazing tour like 20,000 times, but if someone's like, well, there was one thing I didn't really like, I'm okay. Tell me Tell. Please. I need that. Tell me what that is. I hosted an event last night. So I was like, Well, you know, there was this one thing I don't know if you I was like, you have to tell it to me. I need this more than any compliment. I need the critique. It will help me be bigger, better and stronger. Give it to me. So I'm like, that stuff I thrive with. I like that.

Nik Tarascio 

Is there anything that someone shared with you where it actually like it? Got you. You're like, Damn, that actually really hurt. or like, it's still circles in your head from time to time.

Nick Gray 

After I think of you know, I have like a little gap in between my teeth. And sometimes folks about cleaning their teeth. And I'm like now self conscious. I'm like, dang it, I'm have to get that stupid gap fixed. And I have what else, they're just hilarious stuff that people say, like one of the one of my things was like, you know why you need to have name tags at events and parties and why you need to have structure and someone made the comment, which was like, the gist that they were sort of comparing it to is like, I'd sooner kind of take party advice from you, like I would gym advice. And they're like, You got any workout tips, big man. I thought that was hilarious. Sometimes it's the roasts that are so good. And I show them to all my friends. If they're good, they're good. They're good. I love them.

Nik Tarascio 

That's great. I don't know if I would be able to take that as well as you do. So I appreciate that invitation. Man. So continuing forward into, you know, again, you kind of have done many different things that I you know, I believe what you do with what you've what you did with Museum Hack was about creating a really special experience for people what you do in your at the parties, I've been to, again, creating really cool context and structure. So I don't have to be thinking about how I show up at a party. And then you know, the guidance that you have in the book, I've literally taken your templates and just said I'm following this to the tee.

It makes my life so much easier, because like even ratios like how much of this do I need to buy for this many people in your life? This is the ratio, this is the stuff to order on Amazon, everything to the tee, I was like I'm following it. It was so helpful for someone like me, who just wants to get it all perfect. And so, you know, again, I'm just curious, what advice do you have for people that are, you know, trying to find creative ways to to connect, because again, it's like so you I've actually told other people? I'm a Nick, I hang out with a lot of Nick's but I say you're the most Nick, Nick. I know. I don't know why that is but like you just are so gave yourself permission to be you. Were a lot of other Nick's that I know are like, well, we kind of need to play it safe and mask a little bit.

Nick Gray 

Uh huh. Dude, you're a good host in yourself. So I appreciate the compliments. But even as long as I've known you, I remember going to a Madison Square Park, birthday party that you hosted. And there was dancing, there was like tables set up with food. And, you know, the average person would be like, Wow, did Nick like rent this out? Or how do I think you just crashed it? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Right. All right, I think you just crashed and just had all your friends show up. And so you've been a host for a long time. So I appreciate the compliment. But I also want to recognize in that it is a very unique thing to bring people together.

And we all have our different styles. And to the extent that I've found some framework that logistically is very helpful to let people set it and forget it. That's what I like. But I'm inspired by I know, you've been doing a lot of music gatherings even at that one party. But I know you play an experiment. Have you been doing any new stuff with music? At your gatherings or events?

Nik Tarascio 

Somewhat? Yes. So what first of all, anytime I go to any conference group, anywhere, like I just went to a retreat up at omega and if you're familiar with it, upstate New York, they have it's like, it's pretty woowoo but I went for a lucid dreaming a five day course. And stay at a guitar and cafe. So I just played the guitar and like gathered people around for like live music karaoke. So I always find that inserting music into unexpected places, is really fun for me. Last night, I had a actually a gathering of people here and we did a little bit of that too. I've gotten really into sound meditation, guiding people through like deep, deep meditations, of getting to know themselves better. So I really do like this idea of growing up, I would always have music on no matter where I was, I was like, I want like you remember those like waterproof CD players that they used for the shower. I had music everywhere shower, car, LA, wake up, go to sleep, there was always music on so I'm like, I just like sneaking music into places. So for me that is very much the glue.

And I've also found that when I play music, people know they don't have to think about what to say they could just sing along to the word. So in a lot of ways, that's why I was drawn to your parties, because you were like, This is the like, this is the agenda for the night. You don't need to worry about who you're talking to, or how we're all gonna go around and like share something in a circle. It was interesting to see that the guardrails and the structure actually gave me the ability to be more myself.

Nick Gray 

I was wondering if you could help me I did an event yesterday as well. And I had a musician that I hired and I want to get a sing along to end my parties. And people loved it. We did it last night, but between you and me I felt like we didn't perhaps have the full throated participation of all of the attendees. Is because frankly, it was weird, right? I hosted like a half day workshop. And at the end, it was like a surprise sing along. But I want to experiment with that because I've done it sometimes before at my other events and it crushes. And I'm just curious if you have any tips and it I'm sure that some folks who have not hosted a lot are listening to this. And they're like, these guys are insane. They're talking about sing alongs at parties, but know that this is a very advanced move, and you have to read the room, but when it works, oh my god, it works. Yeah, so...

Nik Tarascio 

I've two approaches to that, actually. And I love that you're turning it around on me. This is awesome. Like, I actually liked that we're, we're serving the concept of parties in general, whatever it takes. So two things One is I think that people really love a shocking moment, right? Like, it's like, wow, I didn't expect like my go to is Bohemian Rhapsody. So I will I will play Bohemian Rhapsody on the guitar. I will divide the room. I'll make people sing the different parts. It's the song that no one knows that everyone knows. And so doing that with the cameras come up. People can't believe that we're all singing Bohemian Rhapsody. So that crushes every time I've never had it fall flat ever.

And I've done it. I don't know. 100 times and different Kylie? Yeah. Yeah. It just it's and again, it's more like people like I've never, no one could believe that it could be done on an acoustic guitar. Yeah. And so I believe that that's one way to do it. The other way to do it is like partly what's so fun about that song, it gets people laughing at themselves, right, because it's like, you know, magnifico, like, you're just like, Oh, I'm like saying these funny things and singing high and sing and low and taking myself so seriously, which by the way, is one of the notes I wrote down. I love that you don't have like you don't take yourself too seriously, then you can be engaged and you can be fun. The second thing I like to do is and I do this in the sound meditation is I'll actually do some different vocalizing with people where I'll first say like, we're going to just play a chord and everyone's just gonna hum any note they want. And so everyone's got their mouth closed in their humming that like now we're just going to start to open our mouth a little bit, and I can see who's holding back and feeling insecure. And I'll say like, Listen, you may have a voice coming up right now that saying like, I'm embarrassed. I feel silly. This is a really weird thing to do this, that person is gonna know I have a bad voice. I'm like, No, everybody tried to touch your tongue to your chin.

And now make whatever sound comes out of your mouth. And if I was like, Ah, right, they just like start making weird noises. Well, I'm like, Cool. If you feel like you want to laugh, laugh, like, let's just have fun with this. Shake your face around, do weird things with your face, see what weird sound you could get to come out. And then after that, then I guide people into like, now let's actually start harmonizing, which is like the rule that I saw, which was so cool. Make a note that is different from everyone else's note around you. So then you're like, oh, I want to actually be a unique note. And it just makes this weird cacophony of sound that fills the room. You're like, whoa, this actually feels really special. So I've been really trying to overcome that resistance to participate. Like, how can I make this like, this isn't about being good singers, which is also why yes, karaoke. Karaoke sucks when you're there with someone who's like, oh, no, I'm just a Broadway singer. You know, on the side. Yeah. I don't want to I don't want to see this. This isn't fun. Yes.

Nick Gray 

So I could, I would love to play with that in a live event situation. And again, if you're listening to this, in your new house, know that we are going into the ultra advanced, vulnerable read level state that Nick reads the room very well. I'm guessing you never do this at the beginning. I mean, with the exception of the sound meditation, but folks kind of come to that. But with Bohemian Rhapsody, I'm guessing you do it at least an hour in where people have built some rapport, they've loosened up a little bit, they're willing to be a little more vulnerable. And this just takes it from an eight like to an 11. And if I could learn how to do that, that will be amazing.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, and also, when you're, when you're back doing an event in New York, let me know we could test drive some of this stuff. That will be cool. I'd be totally down. I always love finding different ways to use music, like any form of music to bring people together or create connection. You know, normally, I'd be like, well, we shouldn't have this, you know, we'll edit this app. I'm like, No, I want people to see like, this is really how you do it. Like you're one of the people that is like, I'm never done refining. I'm never done optimizing. There's always more that can be done like what you said before, tell me Give me the feedback. Don't just tell me it was awesome. Like, tell me what I could do to make this better. I feel like your book seems so simple. But to think about it, it's like it's probably hundreds and hundreds of little refinements over time.

Nick Gray 

Yes, tiny, tiny little things. I would rather have someone, there's much less point and emphasis on the food in my book, and I find that most new hosts believe that they have to overspend on food and make this insane spread. But the secret is, is that I would rather have someone leave one of my parties hungry rather than bored. And so I spend all my time thinking about the people and the conversations. And very little I mean, if you Look at the spreads of my parties. It's really nothing. And the reason is because I don't want to stress about the food, I want people. And the reality is that a good event people are talking, they're mixing and mingling, we oftentimes eat and drink when we're bored.

And so that's also something that holds people back from hosting. And you probably host a lot enough, similar to me that like, we could just do it now with our eyes closed, because we have the muscle memory of welcoming people into our space, what music we play what we do to kind of prep and get ready for it. And my whole mission was to write a formula or like an operating system for gathering to help other people learn how to make that easy. By the way, have you switched to party full for your event? Stuff? Invitation? That's good, right?

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, it's super simple. It's that far the easiest platform we found. Yeah. So I have been playing with that. But you're right, you're touching on this, like, there's so much resistance that had come up with, I want to throw more parties, I want to get people together. But it is a huge investment if I am focused on the food, and I'm engaged to a woman who very much values that stuff. So like our early resistance to this was like, no, she would say to me, like, if people are coming to our apartment, there's gonna be good food. And I'm like, Okay, we'll have to do that. So in that way, we're not gonna be able to honor Nick's formula. But you're right. I don't think anyone actually cares that much.

But I know for my fiance was like, even if they don't care, that's the kind of experience I want to create some, like, that's you, like, we'll do jazz, we can do that. I'm okay with that. But I never want that to be we're not going to host because I don't really want to pump $300 into food. So the other thing like last night I just hosted. And I decided, I'm really a fan of the potluck. Like, it's another way of just like, we do want to have more food, people do want to eat and break bread around a table, smaller format, it's obviously only going to be like eight or 10 people. But I like that idea of the potluck. And then we you know, we provide the drinks and desserts. And we're like, you know, bring something that really is like your comfort food. So there's also a little bit of personality in it. But I do think a lot about that, that the hardest thing for me has always been I'm going to overwater food, I'm going to under order food, people can't eat the things. It's all just like dietary restriction stuff we need to.

So I still am thinking a lot about like, what other ways I could do it. But yeah, again, it's I'm super formulaic. And for anyone that's listening Truly, this is like one of the things I actually did, like I took your book and I read the whole thing, I pulled out all the checklists, and I was like, this is going to be my blueprint. And then again, I can modify and amend based on like, how I feel about certain things. But one of the things I had the most resistance on besides the food was like, Are we really going to end two hours in? Are we really going to kick people out? And I needed to hear that? I mean, I actually went to three, don't hate me. But one of the challenges also like people are going to be here too late. We don't want to do it. Because it's going to screw up the whole night we're going to end up, like not having the energy. The next thing I like that. It's like, No, we're ending at this time. If you leave and you feel like it was too soon. Good. You'll come back next time. You'll want more. Yeah, I really like that permission as well.

Nick Gray 

So did you set the party time as two hours and then just hang out late? And it was three hours? Or did you set the time is three hours? I set it at three? Oh, you said that three? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That that the three hours, I was worried that when I do a three hour time, it extends the awkward zone. And the awkward zone is that first 1015 2030 minutes, I found when I did a two hour time limit, even if we went late. So even if I did like 68 or 79. And I knew that we'll hang out later, I found that by setting the two hour time more people showed up on time, because they're like, well shoot, if I show up 30 minutes late, I'm gonna miss like a quarter of the party. And so now I will usually host still for two hours. But after the two hour mark, I'll make an announcement. I'll say thank you, everybody, the party is officially over. If you have to go now I just want to say thank you so much for coming.

And for those that are still here, you know, we can hang out and have one more drink or say hey to somebody new, and then I'll let it go on a little bit more. But at the beginning, I do want to show people how to end a party. Because that's another one of the reasons why people don't host more often is they end up it just destroys their sleep schedule or their apartment or whatever. They're like, oh, people are gonna stay over till 2am And then ever end up hosting.

Nik Tarascio 

That's a really good point. I mean, I really like it there was stuff that you shared that I'd never thought about before like this idea of can you find like five close friends I forgot what you call it, but like getting that inner circle of friends that are like until you guys commit. We're not even putting a party together. Because at least if you're coming, I'm a winner. Right? And so I would actually tell those people they had to be there a little early so instead I'd say like come a few minutes. Tyrese let's catch up. So we're coming into the party with already that people I enjoy being there. Like my closest friends are there right and so that was a little bit of a hack around that but I like This idea of like, I remember, I really did not understand parties.

And when I first moved to New York, I threw a party that was like 5pm to 11pm. And the first person that showed up was the only person that showed up for the first hour. And he was like a party planner type. He really knew how to do parties. He's like, dude, way too big of a window, way too big of a window. And I had never really heard that before. So this idea of like, can you really squeeze it down, make it that you get, especially in New York, where everyone has to kind of Flexi on their time. That's, that's an interesting, I would actually test that I would test compressing it down to the two again, and then just seeing what kind of give a bonus round without them knowing about it. Five

Nick Gray 

to 11 is an interesting time. I remember that there was a woman named Lindsay, who goes to the birthday party, and she lived in Soho, and I it was the same thing. It was like five to 11. And I was like, Well, I like to show up at the beginning. But I'll be like, 15 minutes late. So I message her. I'm like, Hey, what's up? I'm coming over. I'm nearby, like, let me know if you need anything. And she was like, what? You're nearby. Like, I haven't even know I'm still I'm still in the shower. Like I'm getting ready. And I was so frustrated. I was like, why would you say it starts then. But she just knew that people won't show up on time. It's that Flexi window. It's interesting to think why people do that. I don't know what the purpose is.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, yeah. It's also I like that idea of though, like motivating. How do you get people to motivate to come at the right time? Especially? You know, we've, we've been playing a lot with like, all the sound stuff I do once you start the sound, I don't even let people in anymore. Like that's my new role is like, yes, you've got a 30 minute arrival time beyond that. I'm not letting you in.

Nick Gray 

It kills the vibe, it completely kills the vibe. I heard somebody said that the best photographers never will do photoshoots with doors that are open, they make sure that the doors are always closed, because the energy just leaks out. People get self conscious they're walking by there's noises in the hallway, things like that. I bet it is that times 1000 with sound bats. Yeah, yeah.

Nik Tarascio 

Oh, it will absolutely ruin and someone coming in and whispering like, Where should I sit? And you're like, yeah, it's not gonna happen. Yeah, so kind of going bigger. I mean, first of all, I could I could totally nerd out about this stuff for me, too. I find is like someone that always struggled to understand why people do things, and then setting up parties that kind of play to that and figuring out how to you, especially in New York, how the hell do you create something that's memorable in New York City? Right, I think it's much, much harder to do. And I feel like when you throw a party people go, because it's like, Nick's always got something that's going to be really cool. And I'm inspired by that. So much so that I took some of that for my birthday. On September 9, I threw a party and I didn't tell people what was happening after nine o'clock, I just said, it's gonna get really weird. And that's all I said, I said, it's gonna get really weird. And I was like, I wonder if it's gonna be in for it. And so we did an hour of improv at nine o'clock. Then we did a 30 minute death meditation. Then I had six or seven friends that were hand selected, read eulogies about my first 42 years of my life, on my late and a fake coffin. And then as we went around the room at everyone shared what they were most excited about for the next year as if it was a rebirth. And that's pretty cool. It was wild.

And we weren't. My fiance, and I were like, This is not gonna go well, but I really wanted to do it anyway. And at the end, the stuff we got from people was like, Man, I don't normally think about my mortality. But I hope I live long enough to have more crazy nights like this like to have parties like this that remind you, it's actually about like real stuff, and surprise, and authentic connection. So you know, I'm always I'm always interested in kind of hearing edge cases and other things that people are up to, but that really all that stuff kind of came from your original stuff, like seeing how you did it, seeing your formulas. I was like, I wonder how weird I could get with my formula. How far can I push it? So thank you for that permission.

Nick Gray 

By the way, the idea to do what you wanted to do on your birthday is so important. Because the day is for you. Right? It's your birthday, and your friends have to do what you want to do. That is the one day when you get to say we are doing this weird stuff or whatever you want to do, right? Yeah. And so birthdays, my birthday. Last year or two years ago, I rented out the waterpark, right? So I rented out this indoor waterpark and I took all my friends there because I love water parks and I love riding this fake surf machine. And that was so much fun. That was funny, by the way, right? Because I'm older and my friends are a little bit older. We were ripping the water sides nonstop no lines. And then you know, I had like a misuse on staff because we're all like torn up and like muscles like like we're sore. Some friends were just like, Oh, that was amazing, but I was so sore the next day so that was very fun.

Last year, I did something interesting. I usually make my birthday every single year a really big deal. And last year, I decided to do absolutely nothing. I just cleared my calendar. And I reveled in the nothingness of like, as a gift to myself not to do anything. And I just had the best day ever doing things that I wanted to do. And I was reminded, I was just like, wow, there's really no reason I can't do this more often. To like, clear my calendar, just do what I want to do. Um, I'm glad I got to do it on my birthday. And also, Wow, good realization to do that maybe a little more often. Yeah,

Nik Tarascio 

I mean, I imagine you, you default to doing a lot. You seem like you're always up to something.

Nick Gray 

Oh, my God, I hosted an event last night. So I'm experimenting with conferences now. And so I hosted a half day workshop salon. And I wanted to get my, my events out of the sort of after work happy hour mode and into the daytime session. So it was 130 to 5:30pm. Really a test? Like can I host an event in that time slot? Will people show up? Will they come to you know, have a networking type event? And it was, it was a lot of fun. I learned a lot. And I'm excited to keep playing in that space.

Nik Tarascio 

So what is next for you? I'm actually curious, because you're always up to so many different things when you think forward of well, one, I mean, you have such an extraordinary life, like do you feel like you've achieved your dream yet? Or is there something else that that you're still after?

Nick Gray 

I have such a blessed life. I mean, I have very, I'm relatively healthy, I have a roof over my head, I live a pretty minimalist life. So I'm super thankful. And I'm still exploring to figure out what's next, I sold my last company Museum Hack and 2019. I've been working on this book to try to get people to host their own events. Now I'm really going hard on the conferences and the larger things. I just did four conferences in four weeks, with a variety of involvements with the conference organizers. And so for me, that was a lot of fun. And I just got off a call this morning with people brainstorming, how can we do icebreakers for 3000 people? And so that, for me is a challenge. And it's one I want to explore more. And they said, Oh, can we hire you for this? I said, Look, I want to do stuff. That's very hard. This sounds very hard. So I would like to yes, let's keep brainstorming.

Nik Tarascio 

Why do you like hard things?

Nick Gray 

I like learning. I like learning stuff. I did an event recently where I was the emcee at the open night party and I was competing with an open bar. And I told the host, I was like, there's a very good chance that I'm going to bomb. And I'm excited by that chance and possibility that nobody's gonna listen to me. And if you're okay with that, I'm okay to do this plan that we have. But just know that it may absolutely fall flat. And I was just like, oh, this is exciting. This is really exciting. Now, I think I've just done so many events, I've literally hosted probably over 700, happy hours, cocktail parties, things like that. And so now I want the new new I want the challenges.

Nik Tarascio 

So tell me the vision for the future. Like is there some future event that you're really excited about? Or even if it's just like a loose concept, what's driving you forward at this point, besides just learning to learn?

Nick Gray 

Yeah, there is a conference that happens that is called dialogue that Peter Thiel started. And it's kind of spun off into a new world now. But the idea is, there's no keynote speakers, there's no panels, it's all small group discussion, sort of like an intellectual salon. And I want to get towards hosting my own one of those, their event is two or three days long, I'll be hosting a full day event on November 30, a one and a half day event on December 7, and eighth. So I'm like right now rapidly prototyping these events to see if I can play in that space. So that is the future I think of what I'm interested in. I mean, you probably go to a lot of masterminds or you know, people who go to a lot of masterminds. So do I know of a lot of these, and there's some that are very good out there. And I'm just curious, how, just like with museum tours, I took an old idea and kind of flipped it on its head a little bit. How could I do that with these live gatherings?

Nik Tarascio 

It just seems like there are people that are mischievous and they like to break rules to mess life up. I feel like you play with life but everyone's the beneficiary of it. Like it's like it's it's positive spirit of it. It's it's really warm and kind and you know, again, so much of like, while you are one of the more open people there's a little bit of like an enigma to you. I'm like, Why does he do all this stuff showing up at people's parties following up with like, you're working really hard. You're working super hard at this stuff. And I love that it's Like, so grassroots like, the average author would be like, Oh, I get a team of people to do all this stuff for me like, No, I'm going to your party. If I'm in the city where it's happening, maybe I'll even travel.

Nick Gray 

Yes, I call my readers a lot. If they have their email, if their signature, I will call them all, I've had hundreds of phone calls with my readers. And they're always shocked. They're like, why are you talking to me? I was like, because this is like the best part of my day. I love hearing these stories

Nik Tarascio 

This is great. What do you hope to leave behind?

Nick Gray 

If I just get more name tags used and more social situations? I think that's a win. More rounds of intros and social gatherings. I get frustrated when I would go to a house party and I don't know who's in the room. Right? And I don't want to ask the host Hey, can you walk me through every single person here, so I know who I might be interested in talking to. And there's this assumption right now that that's selfish, or that it is somehow negative to ask that, but I think we all have limited time at events and in our lives. And if I meet somebody who likes to ride this stupid surf wave that I do, or somebody who likes to go to New York City and likes Broadway shows, I want to know that at an event so I can go up and talk to them about it. So I would love to be able to leave behind some of those frameworks for gatherings. And if I can inspire a few 100 people to do that. I think that'll be nice.

Nik Tarascio 

Awesome. Well, I think specifically, it's worth talking about, I wasn't going to go into the details. But I kind of feel like we should there's like three things that really do stand out I, I love the idea of what you're talking about is when you would say, hey, it's time to let everyone know who's going to be at the party and write up a little intro about them. You're 100%, right, when I would go to your events or parties that had that. I was like, Well, I actually know I have like a hook, I have a way to know that I like hey, well, let's talk about I didn't know you're in music, but I'm also in music. So now we have something in common. So really Nick's framework of taking a little bit of extra time and letting people know who's going to be there also, they're more likely to come if they know that there's going to be very interesting people there that they'd want to talk to. I really, really liked that I did get. I think it was like 100% participation in anyone I invited. That's awesome. That's great. That's good, right? The first Yeah, like the first one, it was like literally 100% of the people came I'm like, wow, yeah, that is wild.

Nick Gray 

So I found that that's something else I'm so passionate about, which is boosting the attendance rate for events. Because so many people all the time, oh, we had 30 People RSVP, you know, private 15 will show up. And I'm like, What? No, no, something's wrong with that. If they RSVP, we got to get them to show up. So little things that I do to really boost us above 90% attendance rate is important to me.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, it's incredible. And I think going back to the whole name tags thing, it was really a divisive topic in my household. So it's like, oh, man, is it impersonal? But similarly, I'm really I get a little anxious. When I first connect with someone, and we're like, what's your name? What's my name? I always feel like I'm gonna mess up my own name. So I forget the other person's name. And I found it was really nice to know, like, oh, everyone has their name on. So I don't have to feel like after had a long conversation, I'm like, Hey, you should meet. I don't remember the name. I found that to be really helpful. And I'm curious, like, what would you say? Well, what would you say are like if people just did one to three things that you really push for? What are the things that really moved the needle in your mind?

Nick Gray 

That idea that we talked about before with the core group, get in the first five people to say yes, before you send out any invitations to get a double opt in on the first five, and say something like, Hey, man, Nick, are thinking of hosting an event on November 27, from 7am to 8pm, or seven or 9pm? If we do it, would you come and get in five people to say yes, before you go forward, the number one fear for a new host is that nobody's going to attend. And so by getting those first five, that's a sense of confidence. If I had to pick two other things, I would say use name tags, and do at least one round of introductions. And remember, a good intro is a fast intro. And so it's not just that we're hoping to spark new conversations, but also we use those icebreakers to end the existing conversations. Many people Yes, it's hard for them to start conversations, but it's actually harder for many to end a conversation. They don't know how to exit. speaking to someone when they're kind of done, they're way too nice. And when the host adds a little bit of structure and activity at an event, it helps people to end those conversations much easier.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, I'm bad at the walk away. There. I've always admired I heard like, Bill Clinton was really good at that. Like you'd tell, someone would tell him a story. He would shake their hand grabbed the back of their arm like that really good handshake. And you go, yeah, man, you're crazy. And then just walk away or like something like you just like, make some like, sweet comment. Like, That's the funniest thing I've ever heard and just walk away with some like, I can't do that. I feel like I'm gonna somehow let them down or leave like they're gonna feel rejected. So I stick around way longer than I want to.

Nick Gray 

That's good. That's good. Are there?

Nik Tarascio 

I'm actually curious, are there tips in your mind if you are stuck in a conversation with someone that you want? And besides the room, like, you know, someone like you as a party host ending it with, hey, it's time for us to circle up again, and we're going to have another round. What other tips do you have for someone who finds themselves in awkward positions?

Nick Gray 

The easiest way is just to go to the LinkedIn or the Instagram add to to make them feel seen, like you want to continue. And so I will ask, I'll say something like, Oh, are you on social media? And they'll say, Oh, I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on Instagram. And then I said, I'd love to add you can I add up real quick. And so that is a way of seeing them saying, I like you, I'm going to add you now. And then it's very simple to wrap it up was really nice talking to you. I'm gonna go mix and mingle. But I think by by seeing them and acknowledging them and adding them, I'll add anybody, so I don't think too much about it.

Nik Tarascio 

That's a great tool. I'm gonna use that every time now. Yeah, it's good. To grow. Yeah. So just kind of closing, closing question. You know, again, you've obviously helped a lot of people and I am wondering, fulfillment is really the whole driver of the show. For me, it's like how do we help more people experience fulfillment, not just chase it in the wrong places? Since you've had such deep integration with the people who have hosted? Can you tell me how fulfillment has shown up for people who have started hosting with your format?

Nick Gray 

Oh, my God, the best story I heard was a couple of weeks ago, this guy he said, he said, Look, I read your first. He said, I read your book, I hosted my first party, it was fine. He was like, if I'm being honest, it was like a six or seven. I was very nervous. He said, but then I hosted my second party. And because I had already done it once, I had so much more confidence. And he said it was just a 10 out of 10 was one of the best experiences. But he said later that night, I was doing the recap afterwards with my wife. And he said, My wife said, I've never been so proud to see you, amongst your friends. This guy was for the first time ever in her eyes, leading the room, gathering people being a leader among men. And it was she got to see him in that moment. And so hearing stuff like that just lights me up.

Nik Tarascio 

That's a big one. I'm going to sit with that for a moment, I really do think that it's also such an attractive quality, right? Seeing someone who not only leaves a room but leaves a room to connection and with care and with kindness, that that's huge, where I think you know, the stuff I grew up around again, growing up in New York, I grew up around people that lead the room with like, alpha energy, and it's all about me, really be leading from a place of actually, it's about everybody, and I want everyone to participate. That's beautiful story. Well, I, you know, again, I am like fighting myself to stay away from technical tactical questions, because I'm like, Man, I just want to like find all the optimizations.

But really, my biggest takeaway from what you shared is, well, a few things. One is like really just that permission to not take yourself so seriously, and have fun, have fun. And, you know, like we said on your birthday, like have your party, do what you want to do. And just play, optimize, make little tweaks and adjustments. Really freely bring people together in your spaces if you'd like to have and I think that there is something really special about bringing people into your home or bringing people into the space that you have. And as you said, like being a leader of friends, being leader of community, I don't think that there's a better feeling I've ever felt that is one of those times where I feel so much fulfillment. So for people that are looking for that, it doesn't have to be dreadful, it doesn't need to be so stressful. That's like borrow the formula, right? Start from the formula, just do that.

And then if you want to make tweaks and adjustments, you can do that from there. But again, I can attest to it. It really did. You know, I run an airline. So like I can do pretty complex things and run hard projects. party stressed me out still. And to have that formula really helped me do it and gave me the confidence to not over order under order, know how to get people there and not have to feel the rejection of I threw a party and people didn't show up for the first hour. So Nick, thank you so much for helping us figure out how better to connect, gather and just have more fulfillment in our lives. And if you're curious about what Nick's up to, you could check out again, the book, the two hour cocktail party even more than that. And Nick, I'm actually going to let you speak about this. So because you do like to get involved. And you were talking about the idea of someone's thinking about hosting a party. What is your invitation to them?

Nick Gray 

Yep, please send me an email. My address is Nick@NickGraynews.com, and I'll be your accountability partner. So if you're thinking you want to do it, you need a little help, or some motivational messages or something, send me a note. And I'll help you out. It really does make me happy to hear from people that are hosting their first party, just like Nick and I have found these insane benefits in growing our networks. The easiest way to do that is to start to host events and anyone can learn how.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, and I just hope you're taking this in that like this is the most insane offer ever. It is so rare that an author is like I will call you if I have to I will come to your thing that you are doing and I will support you and Nick you've actually done that for me quite a few times when I was Ready to host and I've got questions on this. So yeah, really you should take him up on this. It's such an amazing, it's an amazing gift. And Nick, thank you so much for your time here. I hope people enjoy our very both tactical and nerdy, but also big picture exciting conversation.

Nick Gray 

Thank you very much more Bohemian Rhapsody.

Nik Tarascio 

Yes, exactly. All right. Take care everybody. Thank you for listening to the dream beyond. I hope that you received whatever message or inspiration you were meant to get from today's episode. I had a great time recording it for you. If you love the show, please take 30 seconds to subscribe rate and review it. That really helps get the word out. And if you want to connect with me, you can find me at

instagram.com/niktarascio

linkedin.com/in/nikTarascio

youtube.com/nTarascio

[the-dream-beyond]

Episode 26: Awaken Your Potential: Exploring Sleep Optimization with Mollie Eastman

Mollie Eastman 

Certainly, I was also one of those people who wasn't connecting the dots for myself in my own life with some of the problems that I had with sleep and some of these other health implications. And once I solved my sleep problem, then a lot of these other things that were unexpected benefits fell into place.

Nik Tarascio 

Some of us are just born with these incredible talents for things. And I've never really thought about sleep as one of those things. It's just something that some of us have it, we're good with it, we don't need a lot of it. Or we just naturally fall into a great sleep rhythm, and everything just works out. But for most of us, especially the hard drivers, right, the high achievers, it's something that we end up trading the quality of it a lot, and we pay for it. So, today's guest really gets into saying sleep is a skill. It's something that we have to learn that we have to consciously put our energy into. And she says on the other side of us learning it, we end up achieving a sense of fulfillment, a sense of physical presence in our life that we wouldn't be able to have otherwise. So, I hope you take the invitation to learn how to really see sleep in a completely different way.

Welcome to the dream beyond. I'm your host, Nik Tarascio. I'm a CEO musician, an overall seeker of Truth, inspiration and simply put, how to live the most fulfilling life possible. Growing up surrounded by extremely wealthy and successful people gave me unique and unfiltered perspectives of those who have seemingly made it through on the dream beyond we're letting you in on what it really takes to achieve your dreams. What happens when it turns out your destination isn't the promised land you are expecting how to process the lessons from your past while mapping of course to true fulfillment. Let's get started.

Hey, everybody, I'm here with the visionary behind sleep as a skill. She's revolutionized the approach to achieving restful sleep. She has a degree in psychology from Syracuse University and a wealth of hands-on experience. She stands at the forefront of sleep science poised to revolutionize the way we approach our nightly rest, which I could definitely use. So, I'm really glad to be talking about it. She also had the number two sleep podcast has written a popular weekly sleep newsletter for over five years, is partnered with luxury hotels and lifestyle brands, coaches, and the world's top poker players, and has appeared on over 150 podcasts. So please welcome overachiever. Molly Eastman.

Mollie Eastman 

Thank you, Nik. That intro. Well, thank you for those kind words. And also, you're not alone in the want and quest for great sleep. So, we're going to have fun in this conversation for sure. Awesome.

Nik Tarascio 

Well, I wanted to start off with the question of what you wanted to be when you were little when you thought of like who you'd be when you grew up? What was the dream?

Mollie Eastman 

Oh, man, that's so funny. So, a couple things. One, it was also environmentally based. So, the thinking was, I grew up in middle of nowhere, Maine, poor lived in a trailer, you know, just had no extra, you know, the extra piece wasn't really there. So, for a lot of it, it was to get to New York City. For some reason, there was a pull towards PR and advertising, I have no idea where that got into my brain. But I think part of it was probably like a shame factor of having been embarrassed of growing up with, you know, not a lot of money. And so, I would do a lot around trying to package and market myself in a particular way to not have those things lead in the conversation of you know, who you know, yourself to be. So, I think there was some version of that, that that might have, you know, came from potentially?

Nik Tarascio 

How did that, like, how do you connect the dots between that and what you do now, I guess? Is the sleep thing full time for you at this point?

Mollie Eastman 

Oh,yeah. So how I would connect the dots with that area one, that everything I'm doing is under this umbrella of behavioral change. And certainly, I think one of the defining pieces that really moves me with the work that I do, the family that I grew up in, there was a lot of narratives around kind of a fixed state and, you know, a want to be able to take on great things and do great things, but it kind of a sense of like, oh, well, you know, you're born into these particular ways of being. And yet one thing that I think is really empowering, even from the sleep perspective, and, you know, we'll certainly get into the far-reaching tentacles in which sleep can impact virtually every aspect of your life.

But I think this kind of flipping the switch to how can we use sleep as a starting point to transforming the workability of our lives and what's possible for us, and I think that's been a really empowering place to stand that I might not have had where I had grown up and also you know, the school I went to and the people that I was around were just great people and yet, kind of dealing with financial, you know, kind of a lack of optionality is what it felt like, I think for a lot of individuals. And so, there are particular paths and taps on what's possible. And so, I think some of those can apply to behavioral change, and certainly sleep.

Nik Tarascio 

So, let's create some pain for myself and everybody else then because I imagine that, you know, it's like, there's all this stuff out there that it's like, you should eat well, and you should exercise, and you should sleep well. And I think we all know, we're supposed to do it, but to the point of behavioral change, it's hard to get it to move. And so how can you create some pain for us? Can we get into like, why should anyone actually care about optimizing sleep?

Mollie Eastman 

Yeah, that's a really great point. Well, one to begin with, we know that so many people are, we're at this a chat epidemic level of sleep deprivation of just poor. As far as the duration of sleep, let alone the quality. And certainly, the quality is clearly impaired for a number of people as it relates to some of our understanding of a number of factors that would reflect poor sleep. And we know that virtually every area of life and I do these talks and talk about, you know, poor sleep and ways that we can optimize it.

And I've still yet to come across a room where anyone can really share with me a domain of life that is not negatively impacted when our sleep isn't working as well as we might like it to. But certainly we know that it, it kind of reaches its way into our cognitive health, it reaches its way into certainly our mental health, it reaches way to physical health, immunity, cardiovascular, you know, cancer risk, so many things that we can get clear on having, it's linked to sleep. And certainly, I was also one of those people that wasn't connecting the dots for myself in my own life with some of the problems that I had with sleep, and some of these other health implications.

And once I solved my sleep problem, then a lot of these other things that were unexpected benefits fell into place. But certainly even if we just talked about one factor of that sleep duration piece, we do know, in a large scale study of meta-analysis that came out a few years back, that even consistently, sleeping less than six hours puts us at risk for a number of things, including heart disease, stroke, diabetes, cognitive decline, and my favorite death from any cause, just from sleeping at a lower number of hours, it's just the hours piece, although there are many people that are sleeping more hours than that, but are also at risk for some of those same things because of the poor quality of sleep.

So, there are many angles to get at that impact. Beyond that, there are over 100 sleep disorders that are lurking, that people might have no idea they are dealing with and running around undiagnosed and impacting their quality of life.

Nik Tarascio 

You know, I haven't moved on from the death by any cause. Oh, yeah, right. I was like, just like death by shark attack, you're like, dammit, you should have slept more, it was less likely you'd have a shark attack.

Mollie Eastman 

What do we think of as you know, the kind of insidious ways that poor sleep can, you know, fall out is unfortunately, very common things car accidents, just unfortunate, you know, accidents on the job, all these other things, that when we look back and you see of these horrible wreckages and you know, train wreckage or flights or what have you, then we often feel that there's Oh, the person fell asleep at the wheel, the person that's that, and yet it's become part of our society and might not necessarily realize that this is not necessarily need, it doesn't necessarily need to be this way.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, I mean, in my aviation training, I'm a pilot and a mechanic. So, we do a lot of training on like casual. The casual influence of sleep deprivation as it relates to accidents, right? It's like because it's like a Swiss cheese model like 100 things go wrong, and then it creates a bad situation. And it's like looking for that sleep deprivation seems to be at the at the heart of a lot of this stuff. Now you said something else you said below six hours and again, so I have the aura ring. And I've always wondered, is it six hours of a certain kind of sleep or like the aura ring will say my total sleep time is x, but the efficiency of it was this much when I'm actually asleep and not awake? So, like, yoga Nidra time lying in bed, like is their clarity on that? Because I imagine many of us beat ourselves up and go, well, was I really sleeping for six?

Mollie Eastman 

Such a good point. Yes. And there are some of those nuances. Isn't it does appear that certain things can help support during these times wouldn't for all of us at some point throughout our life, you know, new parents or kind of added stressors or job promotion or whatever, that there might be certain periods of time that your sleep is coming into question as far as its effectiveness. And so, you might supplement with, say naps during certain periods yoga Nidra. To your point. Enter, Huberman coining the non-sleep deep rest protocol has been helpful for different ways of helping to language, how we can bring back some more restorative time throughout the course of our day. But we do still see that from a kind of uninterrupted stretch of time, it does appear to have some different qualities than this, you know, kind of patchwork of grabbing some extra sleep here and there, no, those are certainly beneficial and helpful and can be a help supplement.

And yet, we do still want to make sure we're getting that core sleep. And we do find that when we start from that core sleep piece, getting much below those six hours is where for many people, things start to go awry, it's certainly a Goldilocks piece of how much total sleep do you need. And that can get more into the weeds at some of the, you know, akin to a shoe size, you know, it's different depending on the person and different parts of your life. If you're training for a marathon, you might have a bit more of a sleep need, at certain periods, then you will when you're working from home kind of sedentary and what have you.

So, there may be a bit of an accordion model element. And then as you age through different seasons of your life, then some of this could shift a little bit. But by and large, there is a reason that so often it is said seven to nine hours for healthy adults is kind of what we're shooting for most routinely.

Nik Tarascio 

So that seven to nine hours though is it's like is that time in bed or is that truly like I went to sleep at this time, and then I woke up at this time, and the other was some wake ups in there. But I was more than six hours of actual sleep because I was in bed for seven to nine hours. So

Mollie Eastman 

Our goal with that seven to nine hours is that that is sleep time. And that we're getting really good at that sleep efficiency and sleep efficiency being the time in bed and the time and kind of pulling out of that time that sleep opportunity that you gave yourself, how much of that time was actually sleep. And if we're seeing really low numbers on some of our wearables, and certainly, you pointed to your aura ring, and that's one of the rights now for sleep as a skill. For years we've had that be our main asleep wearable, that every person we're working with is utilizing although we often see whoop and bio strap and Garmin and apple and all these other things.

But with all of them, we're looking to train for really quality sleep efficiency in kind of a Goldilocks element, you don't want to too high either, because that can also represent that you're sleep deprived. And that the minute you're getting into bed, you're falling right asleep, which can be a big red flag that something might also be wrong with your sleep, you might be sleep deprived or having undiagnosed sleep disorders or otherwise. But largely, you want to have that time that you're in bed. We want to know how much time you are actually asleep versus just lying there, which unfortunately happens for many people.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, well, a buddy of mine said to me not that long ago, he was saying that. Everything that came natural to us as children as we get older, it's like actually hard work to do it, whatever that thing is like enjoying food, sleeping, right having, we have to like schedule all of that and everything is so intentional. So, I like the way you talk about sleep as a skill set. And as you were speaking, it was like Oh, another thing I need to get really good at, but I see the value and right it's like such a core thing to need to do. So where does one start? Like so someone's bought it right? Like they're hearing this talk and they're going to get it I kind of suck at sleep. I bought the wearable I don't even know what the hell any of it means.

Mollie Eastman 

What do I do from here? Yeah, such a great call out and one yes, I hope anyone listening no matter where you're at, if you're you know, doing okay with your sleep, if you're struggling, or if you're a fine sleeper and like to see how you could get to the next level no matter where you are on that spectrum. I hope that that is you know, takeaway is that sleep is a skill and that you know, even if you're having a certain level of mastery in a particular area, we can always take that skill set to the next level. So where do you begin? Well, one of the places that we have people begin is in this conversation of circadian rhythm entrainment and fancy series of words to really have us pull back and start to think about the fact that we are diurnal creatures, meaning that we're meant to be active by day and at rest at night and we do you see very clear things starting to go off kilter when we start deviating from that are examples often are of shift workers quite obviously, of people that are just doing their day to day work, but they're doing it at kind of those upside down times to our biology.

And we're thankful for them, they're crucial to our society. And we do see that there are very clear deleterious health effects quite often in that group, which can look like cancer rates going up in particular, things like diabetes, or cancer in the types of breast cancer and pancreatic cancer are two that seem to really respond negatively to circadian disruption. And again, that circadian disruption is this 24-hour cycle that we're all meant to be operating within. And that it can get a little funky based on our behaviors beyond cancer risk, then there are risks of diabetes, or risk of mental health dysfunction, as well as of course, our sleep wake cycle being kind of not quite as attuned as we would like to have it.

So, what are the practical applications for the average person? Well, one, we want to entrain the circadian rhythm to make it really strong so that a lot of this just all happens automatically. And we don't have to kind of force sleep in the same way that we're seeing for a lot of people, because so many people will say, Well, what, I just can't get my brain to turn off, or I might fall asleep for a couple hours, and then I'm up, you know, just that frustration around, how can we turn off more consistently and reliably and for longer stretches of time. And instead, when do we entrain? This Rhythm, often what we see work or kind of as a Fallout is that suddenly there's an automaticity, where we're waking up at around the same time getting sleepy at around the same time and not needing to then in the evenings, pull all these extra meditation apps and you're in those are great, you know, nothing wrong with those pulleys, if those are working, use those. But there's often a simplicity that comes from the workability of those rhythms.

And so a lot of this then boils down to, how can we create and protect a workable structure for ourselves where we are aligned with these rhythms of nature, even in you know, New York City, LA, wherever the heck we might be, and have all of this ability to have a 24 hour lifestyle, we're finding that that is very, very problematic to a number of things for our health and our sleep results. So, starting there, so what would a really practical piece of this be? Well, one, we're often begin with our how we begin with is our wake-up time. So, we're looking at how can we create a consistent wake up time around seven days a week, that also, you know, doesn't change on the weekends.

So that right then in there, we're kind of creating a consistent cortisol pulse that's happening at about the same time every single morning. And that cortisol pulse is then tethered to our melatonin pulse at the end of our day. So, then we're having this book end. And that since we're not then, you know, weaving all over the place with those wakeup times or bedtimes, then those get to stay really strong. And those kinds of help with the bookmarking of our days. But paired with that consistent wakeup time, you want to also marry that consistent wake up time with bright light exposure, that is having you physically get outside, when you're pairing that with that same wakeup time that you're doing consistently.

And that you're getting that outside without your sunglasses, without hats or all of these other things so that it directly gets into your eyes for an extended period of time to entertain. And reset that master clock known as a super cosmetic nucleolus directly connected to our eyes acts as this master conductor to these peripheral clocks that are in virtually every cell and organ in our body. And then those are allowed or able to then stay on time for the rest of that day. But it requires that resetting every single day. So that can be a solid place to begin.

Nik Tarascio 

So let me see if I understood that well, which is I need to get light in my eyes to really train the body in the morning as basically as fast as I reasonably can when I wake up to start getting the body to lock it. But does that not work through windows? Exactly.

Mollie Eastman 

Very good point. So, if anyone's watching this video, I have a lot of windows behind me. And if I was to rest on my laurels and say, well, you know there's some light coming in here. So, I'm fine. That would be doing a disservice to this strengthening goal of strengthening our circadian rhythm because there are studies that find that it takes anywhere from 50 to 100 times longer to reset our master clocks from behind a window why because they are the windows that most of us have are cutting out certain spectrums of light that we need to have present to really communicate to the body what time it is and what to be doing when you can have an entire podcast on the physics of light and the difference of light that we experience throughout the course of the day, but really important lights, you know, I talked about the bookends of hormones from cortisol and melatonin pulse, but there's also kind of the bookends of our light pulsing.

So, our morning light really has that pinky hue for a reason, because it's rich, and that infrared light stretches across the horizon. And that type of light tells the body something really important, it tells it that it's morning light, Okay, it's time to take on this day, it's natural, you know, kind of coffee, if you will, to take on the rest of with energy and gusto to take on the rest of your day. And then it will change throughout the course of the day. So that morning light becomes very different than solar noon light, which is some of the brightest light of your day directly above you. And that's going to be richer in a different set of spectrums and have that blue light present wake promoting activating kind of the dopamine hit. Whereas then when you get to your sunset, that's another time where that's stretching across the horizon. Now it's Pinky again, and has an infrared rich light, a lot of people buy these, you know, red light panels, like this is a red-light panel.

And you know, people will get some of these, but you can also get it for free by going outside and being present with that infrared light as well. And that sunset light also helps communicate to the body that we're setting ourselves up for night. So now we're going to be shifting over to the production of melatonin soon. And that can help regulate our, the activity within our body, including our brain activity. So, for those people that are saying, I just can't turn off my brain. And by the way, I was one of them when I was dealing with my sleep issues. And subsequently, if I looked back at my habits, I was not connected in any remote sense to any of these rhythms of nature at all. And that was playing a role for myself. And I see that all the time for clients that they're doing this upside-down dance. So, we've had, we just had recently a subject matter expert from NASA on the podcast speaking to this assertion that the average person is hanging out in environments by day that on average, about three times too dark for our biology, and by night around three times too bright for our biology. So, it's really living in this upside-down world. And it's giving us completely counter cues to what we want to facilitate. Now why am I spending so much time on light? Well, because we're talking about circadian health.

This is all out of the world of Chronobiology, the science of time and how time affects our biology. It turns out, there are these things that you want to get familiar with called Zeitgeist errs fancy word for time givers. And these time givers are telling the body information about what time it is and what to be doing when and turns out the body is always trying to understand what time it is. And so, it's sampling the environment based on the visual cues, but also some of our behaviors.

But the most important Zeitgeist ever, of this world of Chronobiology and circadian health is light, dark. And part of the reason we assume is because it's in our eyes that are directly connected to that super cosmetic nucleus. And that's one of the best ways for us to get a sense of what time it is, what are we doing what historically, and it's only been 144 years since Edison created, or we believe, invented the light bulb. And so, for those 144 years, it's pretty small blip in the, you know, kind of creation of human beings on this planet for hundreds of 1000s of years, we're living without that intervention of this full light. So, we would have had to have been tethered to those rhythms, just, you know, by proxy. And yet now, in the last 144 years, we've divorced ourselves from that nature component, gone indoors, and therein lies a lot of the problems and the numbers look something like in 2001, the EPA did a study and they found that the average person in America was spending about 93% of their time indoors.

And that also shook out to between inside and in automobiles, which even in an automobile unless you crack your window, which I do suggest doing. But if you don't crack your window, then you're still in this indoor manmade environment. And that is cutting you off from these rhythms in nature. So that was 93%. Back in 2001, before a pandemic before the smartphones, Netflix, so it's probably like way higher now. And there is part of why we are having such a problem is really our own self-created conundrum of the, you know, comforts of modernity, and yet they are messing with these rhythms more than we might realize.

Nik Tarascio 

Science. Oh man. I recently saw one of your posts on social where you spoke about the need to try to hold the same wake up time. And I was so mad. I was just like, please not be Hello, there are some other people that didn't like that. I didn't troll you or anything. I didn't say anything negative about there.

Mollie Eastman 

Like, why aren't we like? Yeah, like?

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah. I think part of that goes back to like, you know, I think of again, I'm a pilot, right like so we're violating a bunch of rules when you were talking about the idea of Yes, light is relatively new. For people also flying through time zones. Yeah, he's a super new thing, you really couldn't move a horse that fast. So, it was like, we've done so much stuff to our bodies and kind of going back to the idea of what about for someone who's, like, there is again, I do parts work. So, like a part of me is like, what a boring way to live. I don't want to be in this I got to go to sleep now and then got to get up this time every day. But like, it's a Friday night. I want to go out and be with people or Sure. I go through another time zone whatever it is, like, what? What is someone supposed to do with that information? Is it more like, hey, just try to be as good as you can at it? Or no matter what time you go to go to sleep wake up at the same time, even if it sucks, I guess what's the better way to manage that?

Mollie Eastman 

So good. Well, thank you once for saying that. Because that is the real deal. Because that's people can hear some of these comments. But unless we are able to comply, then it doesn't really matter. So, one by your sharing that that's really helpful, because we can get into like, how can we navigate this. So one, I would say for the travel piece, I absolutely recommend an app called time shifter for anyone that is going to be shifting time zones frequently or is has anything on your calendar coming up, I would download that app, no affiliation, but getting that and putting in your flight itinerary. What's really cool is that it's purporting to then help you time shift like a verb.

And this is really what we would do for any time, or maybe you do have something coming up that you are not willing to, you know, kind of budge on and you got a big wedding and you need to stay up really late or some celebrations something. So even for those, we would almost plan to time shift like a verb for those activities, and for certainly our flight travel, that it has as a jumping for real into different time zones, not just our own self-made ones. So those will help guide you through things that you can do through the light, dark piece. Also, if you use the world of Chrono pharmacology, which is meaning the timing of drugs and when we're administering those, so that could look like as simple as administering caffeine at certain times if you do that melatonin at certain times if you do that, and we do have studies to support that for jetlag. And so that could be an option for people, but then also some of our behaviors that we can bring in and otherwise.

So that's also applies for shift workers, too, they do not have a new app for shift workers. So, you can put yourself in your shifts and kind of set yourself up as powerfully as possible. But then for the rest of us that might be dealing with kind of social jetlag, as it's known, I feel like it needs a new name. Because we also saw during COVID, that sometimes we wouldn't even be socializing, we just be inside with ourselves. And then people, you know, we would just start staying on our phones later, or watching a show or whatever. And then we would be staying up much markedly later sleeping in markedly later and to your point, wanting to have some of that variety. So, here are a couple of ways that we could think about this. One thing that I cite a lot is that we had a kind of sleep anthropologist on the podcast years back, David Sampson, and he spoke to this conversation of sleep capital versus social capital.

And so, I like to think about this on the times where I'm going to deviate is that you're aiming to set up your life most of the time to really support your sleep capital. So that may be almost like an if you will, Pareto principle, you know, 8020, hopefully, more than that, ideally, like 9010, maybe something along those lines, but for the most part, you are really taking care of your sleep capital, making dividends really supporting it, prioritizing, etc. But then every so often, from an anthropological perspective, the thinking is that since we are such social creatures, there can be an argument that could be made for engaging with the quote unquote, tribe of yours. And actually, having some of those, you know, festivities, celebrations, things that you would do that would keep you out later.

And then you're going to bring yourself back on time and have all of these tricks of the trade that you've now acquired with this skill set of sleep, so you know how to quickly get yourself back on time. So, when you do invest that social capital, then you can actually make the mental argument that that's going to help support your sleep because we know loneliness and sleep are definitely correlated. And we certainly saw that during COVID. We are social beings, and we are meant to, you know, engage in some of these. So, it can be a way to periodically deviate. But then how do we quickly get Back on Track without suffering for extended periods of time, unbeknownst to us, because there are things, we can do to kind of quickly get back on track.

Nik Tarascio 

Man, you know, a lot of stuff I got to say, like, it's, I can think of like...I mean, it's the kind of thing where again, like, I know that there's all this sleep science, rationally speaking, but I feel all the resistance in my body as I'm like, this is going to be hard work. And now that I know that I can't not do something about it. Like, I kind of want to put a big warning on this podcast, like, do not listen to this, if you want to just enjoy your sleep, the way you used to do it, like just fine, okay, I'm going to listen to this, and we're going to mess it all up for you.

Mollie Eastman 

I love that. So, a quick call out about that is that before I went through my own kind of sleep breakdown, I really honestly didn't think that much about my sleep beyond just a lot of labels and narratives. And I would say things like, I'm a short sleeper, I'm a night owl, it's in my genes, I'll sleep when I'm dead. What's the big deal, sleep in who cares, I make my own schedule, not a problem be justified and righteous about all of it. And yet not connecting how I was behaving with that, and not being aware of some of these things actually, just kind of spilled into my experience of life. And so, what things would look like was a lot of emotional instability, anxiety, waking up just feeling zombie like Thai, I got a lot of headaches. During this period, when I was having insufficient sleep. Some people might have different symptoms. But the other can just be the coloring of how you're viewing the world can be massively impacted. We know this to be true.

As far as just even your ability, your interpersonal communication, I know we both are connected with Blake. So, my husband, I know is part of our connection point. And one of the things he does is about how to read faces. And we know that even our ability to read faces is impacted when we have poor sleep. So, the list goes on and on. So, what I now say some of the ways that I relate to my life is that I'm addicted to feeling good, because I never used to think it was possible. For me, I thought that I was just how life was because that's how it always been for me. Not knowing that way, I can wake up feeling rested and actually feel good on a consistent basis of consistent energy levels and put things in my calendar and actually have account audible reliability that I can show up in a state to be able to fulfill on those things I haven't picked that was like available. So, then what I find for people, especially as we get into the game of bringing some metrics into this, and you know, my poker players love this because they're so gamified.

And so they take really well to the metrics piece, then once we start actually improving our baseline on so many of these factors, then they start over time, unbeknownst to them as the time goes on, start gravitating to these behaviors and start to protect their sleep way more than they ever thought they would have. Because now they don't want to feel that kind of crappy way that they always used to think was just life.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, yeah. No, I didn't really like I said, it's normally I'm like much more upbeat on a podcast, and I'm just so excited. And this one is just like, I have so much work to do. Like I really do feel that coming into because it's true. I've noticed. I mean, part of the reason I got the aura ring was it was something that was kind of my first time of being really intentional. In my 20s I had tons of weird sleep stuff. I was sleeping like four hours and 16 minutes a night on average, I had parasomnias I went to NYU for a sleep study where they were like, Nick, the average person who gets hooked up to this machinery takes about six minutes to go to sleep. You went to sleep in 22 seconds.

And I'm like, I'm really good at sleep. And they were like, no, no, you're not. You owe probation. So, it's like it took me about 15 Or maybe 13 years after that to realize like I actually have to take this seriously. And I never verbalized that as sleep as a skill. But it's like the more and more I hear you speaking about it, the more I'm like truly the life I want. And I was going to ask this as one of my later questions is like the life, I want the fulfillment I want to feel in my life, maybe in a major way blocked. If I don't solve this piece of the puzzle, because there is no worse, I've ever felt in my life. And I've had a lot of bad things happen to me. But there is no worse I've ever felt than feeling like I can't sleep. I'm depressed. I don't even know what's wrong with my body, like energetically, I don't have any energy. I'm just laying here miserable in my own thoughts in the middle of the night. Like what the hell is wrong with me? So, as you speak about this, it's like I know damn well that this is something that I do need to optimize and it's so intimidating because there's like, there's like all this science stuff and all this data.

And I mean, I'm like a scientific person anyway, I like I like all the data and I track everything. But somehow, I just like wanted to believe in fairy tales that like, just lay in bed and be okay and it's all We're going to work out your body's just going to adjust and calibrate. I'm like, yeah, that may have been true in the forest 500 years ago, but I may not work out so well with my current phone situation and television and the light I have on in my apartment. And so, I'm just, I'm processing my own self rage. I think I was.

Mollie Eastman 

I love that you just shared all that because that is, so I think one relatable for so many of us. And to and part of the beginning and Genesis of any behavioral change is knowing that we're having enough pain to warrant taking new steps often, I mean, it would be nice if we would take behavioral change steps just because but typically usually does it is born out of like, well finally I'm feeling the pain enough. So, I'm going to start something new. And so, one I so appreciate you sharing that. But till it's this is where sleep gets so trippy and philosophical because I also hope I don't leave people feeling stressed at the same time about sleep because one of the things that we find is a key characteristic of insomniacs. Now there's two very different buckets for people that are struggling with sleep. And sometimes they start to overlap. But two buckets can sometimes be just the group that maybe hasn't prioritized sleep, or they got you know, lots of circumstances or their new parents or whatever.

And they just for whatever reason the prioritization of sleep hasn't been high on the rungs. And then eventually they're saying, okay, fine, I'm going to start to prioritize this, that can be one particular group, but they don't really have trouble with how they're relating to their ability to fall asleep, stay asleep, etc. And then there's the group that really thinks deeply about this almost sometimes to a problematic point. And that was kind of more me once I started going through that period of insomnia. And those can be the people that can lay there for hours and can't fall asleep. And or unfortunately, sometimes it's both and I dealt with this too. Then when they finally do fall asleep, now they're waking up a short period of time thereafter, and now struggling to fall back asleep. And or having early morning awakenings. And now they're just like up for the day. So that group that insomnia group, one of the key components for them that we can often find is this kind of perfectionist tendencies trying to get it right, it can feel overwhelming.

Now they're learning all these things and feeling like they keep failing and almost go into the realm of like performance anxiety. And then you can actually develop what can feel like sleep anxiety. And I certainly went through that, and it would just, you start to get nervous around this time to go to bed. And then fear of failure and all these psychological things can go into it. So, for anyone dealing with that, I don't want to land this like a you have to be super fixated on sleep, it's this fine line of caring about it, prioritizing it, you know, maybe getting curious about it. But then I hope that what we can create as a possibility is shifting the focus off of the night's delay and moving it to how we're starting our day and living our days. And from that place, then once we get to the nights, then it's an element of just sort of surrendering and accepting how things go.

And then we can have the next opportunity the next day to, you know, test it all again. But it's an opportunity instead to reorient because I would make the argument that if we're not thinking about sleep at all, not really prioritizing it, and only time we're thinking about is once we get into bed, we've it's too late, don't even worry about it. Because now just gets comfy, because all the things that you're going to do to support getting great sleep actually happen in the light of day quite often.

Nik Tarascio 

That's interesting. Yeah. And I think for me, being the life hacker that I am, it was surprising to find out that the thing that was actually the most effective was getting me excited about sleep. And it was lucid dreaming practice, because then they were like, well, you need to do four to five hours in the first block and then wake up and do 90-minute chunks. And I'm like, I couldn't possibly do that in a six-hour block of time, like I've tried to cram my sleep into. So, I found myself slowing down and going like well asleep almost become something I'm looking forward to.

But also, I think that also comes with its own interruptions of like waking up in the middle of the night. But for me, that was kind of one of the shifts. And, you know, again, I need to now reconcile with like, how many nights a week am I willing to do that versus really do more like a clean, pure play, like, this is what I need to do to sleep. So, with all that said, yeah, there's so much good stuff here.

And again, I love your content, I actually read everything that goes by on my social feed that you put out because I'm like, this is going to be something I need to hear that I don't want to hear, but I definitely need it. And you know, my, my, my closing question to you is, you know, given this, like, amazing journey you've been on from it sounds like, you know, a relatively interesting upbringing in rural Maine, to working with people that are kind of doing everything from like, you know, world leading poker players to I'm sure it's a lot of entrepreneurs and people that are doing As He shed in the world, what is your dream beyond like, what's left for you to dream about going forward, and both in a literal and metaphorical sense.

Mollie Eastman 

I love that. That's amazing. Okay, so for me I am, my life's mission at this point is to be able to help support people in kind of getting in the driver's seat with their sleep, not just to get some numbers or anything, although that can be nice. But because I truly believe that for all of us, if we were to prioritize this area, that the world would look very different, because in order for us to really get great sleep result, it really does take an overhaul of our life and the workability of our life, I often say that sleep is a barometer of the workability of our lives.

And so many times, even when we think that oh, well, we got this handled, then just wait, something happens. You know, you lose a loved one, you move you this on the other gets sick, etc. And then often sleep can change in alignment with that, so that it takes new skill sets. So, for me, I want to kind of expand the aperture by which I'm sharing this message. So, I'm working on a book now. So that's an exciting new way to kind of get that message out. And further democratize this conversation is what I like to do, because like I shared, I came from, you know, like kind of meager background or upbringing. And certainly, the me of then would have had no access to a lot of this information, or certainly some of the ways that we're administering it with some of the people that we're working with that do have the means to really have a lot of hands on guidance in the area of their sleep, which is amazing.

And we'd like to see how we can get that more to the masses. So that's part of the goal of what's next. So speaking on more stages, so now this has become an international peace or traveling, you know, all throughout to kind of share some of this message to different groups, but really looking to hopefully bring about some intrigue or interest in various regards, hopefully not too much fearful content for people have been upset of, you know, what I'm putting out there. But hopefully, it becomes a source of empowerment, because what I know to be true, on the other side of this is that we can interrupt so much of this divorcing of just kind of our blueprint that came from ancestral health for so long, just being connected to some of these rhythms.

And I think one of the things that I'm really passionate about is the mental health component, because I shared when I was not living in alignment with this, my levels of anxiety, and just the way I saw the world are so skewed. And that is very concerning. For me, we have many more studies, even one most recently, I think that's interesting, that points to the mind after midnight. And this is a study that has been aptly named, because it's finding that when we are deviating from these rhythms of nature, anytime, so you wake up at like three in the morning, and you're thinking of all the horrible things that could happen in your whole life, that we actually have some science as to why that we even our thought patterns have a diurnal nature to them.

And so, they start to become more flawed logic based in the wee hours of the morning whenever that time is for you. And suicidality rates go up during those times when depression, like symptoms, anxiety, etc. So the more we learn about this, it can give us more of a say, we don't have to feel like, you know, mystified as to why sometimes we feel a certain way, sometimes we don't, we can learn about this and hopefully get interested and by the intrigue, then take some new steps.

Nik Tarascio 

Beautiful, well, thank you for doing this for everybody. Because I do think, you know, clearly with the mental health epidemic that's going on in the world, and just the way people are relating to technology, and as you said, like light interruptions and all that, like, you know, the things you said before, like, I'll sleep when I'm dead, you know, it's like, it might come sooner than I get just, you know, there's a lot of stuff to that. So, I kind of the biggest stuff that I took away here that I I've never thought about sleep as capital, like this concept of sleep capital, where it's like, yeah, we're taught. Actually, that's another criticism.

We're not really taught how to manage money properly in our schooling system, right? But the idea is, like, I have financial capital, I have time capital, I have sleep capital, social capital, it's a really interesting thing to look at that and say if you had to assess your sleep capital, what would that really look like? So when you set it that really, that really hits something for me of interesting I'm like, if I was running out of money, I would know that there are particular actions and steps I can take to recover from like, oh, wow, I've overspent this month I can adjust when you talked about using time shifting and having the tools of a okay I've learned some of these skills that I can use to get myself back to baseline back to a good space. I've never really thought of it that way. So, I think that was incredible to reframe that as well.

And then get going with the starting with the circadian rhythm. A guy I've heard of that, I've, I understand the concept of it like it, you know all the biology stuff I learned, but to really think about it as like this is a thing to protect. And it's also something to really foster. I never even thought of things like, what are the things that can reinforce what was the word Odyssey?

Mollie Eastman 

Oh automaticity.

Nik Tarascio 

I've never heard that word, but the automaticity of my circadian rhythm like that idea of like, I actually can have this stuff start to work for me instead of working against me. And if I could learn what those skills are, that's really beautiful of like, Yeah, I mean, I fly airplanes, autopilots are very helpful. So, thinking about it that way, like, let's reinforce the system. So, it just gives us the right inputs, even when we screw up, the system is going to try to readjust and calibrate for us. And I think the biggest thing about everything you said is really just that invitation for, like, life is supposed to feel pretty amazing. And our bodies are supposed to feel a lot of pleasure being in the experience of life.

And if we're feeling drained or overwhelmed, or tired or depressed, or having like, your middle of the night, wake up suicidal ideation. Like yeah, maybe start with sleep. And it's like, so this is the part that always is frustrating. It's, yeah, it's sleep. It's water. It's exercise, I guess I just would defer. If life doesn't feel great. If I go back to life, let me diagnose those three things and see, is it possible that any of these things are off. So, I just think it's a really great reminder of this is important. But also, there are tools and there are skills, and there are ways to look at this differently, that in the way you like, people have these financial tools in their computers, right? It's like I use mint, or monarch or all these things to track my finances, we should be leveraging the tools for something that is more important than that, at the end of the day, it is truly more important for our happiness than the financial health that we have. So, I just really appreciate that reminder, and I'm just taking it all in. It's really trying to take it all in.

Mollie Eastman 

Well, one that was a phenomenal kind of recap that was so impressive. And to I guess what I would also make sure I leave for the listener in case they're like, oh, wow, okay, so light and all these different topics, where do I begin? Just a couple key elements. One, I would point to the fact that at least one in four people, we believe, have sleep apnea. And we also speculate that that number could be rising. And that that might be underestimating the number of people right now sadly, that are running around with sleep apnea. And that can be life changing. If we diagnosed that that's one of many sleep disorders.

So, one if you're, you know, having some of those routine wake ups if you are falling asleep really quickly. And then if you are feeling fatigued throughout the course of the day, if you have morning headaches, if you wake up with dry mouth, some other all these different signs, it could be worth getting tested for sleep apnea, do not anticipate or rely on the fact that your primary care doctor would catch that and nothing against primary care doctors. But unfortunately, they only on average, get about two hours of training in sleep, despite the fact that we do this thing a third of our lives, on average, 26 years of our lives are spent sleeping. And yet we you know; the average doctor is getting about two hours of training in this thing.

And usually, major pathologies and not quite getting some of the clear signs that you might be running around with some undiagnosed sleep disorders. So, it does behoove us right now until that system changes to learn a little bit about this advocate for ourselves, and even get at home testing. Things like Empower sleep loft. I have no affiliation with these companies, but they're at least in the United States, things that you can access at home for about 200 bucks. And then you can just go to sleep and put these on one's a ring, one's more of like a watch.

And then you can just wake up the next day and then be able to review some of that feedback with a trained sleep doctor and they'll go over that with you or depending some of them will be a representative but depending on which company you go with, so that's one way to quickly really have a life changing step taken. If you do have sleep apnea. Blake, who we both know discovered, he has REM dependent sleep apnea, which is a particular type of sleep apnea, and he doesn't even snore or have you known, the oversized neck or overweight or any of those things. So, a lot of people might not suspect that they have this and then they might have it so that would be that step to take. And then in the order of some of the things that people might be surprised at that would impact their circadian rhythm. I mentioned light dark one of the next ones is temperature meal timing, exercise timing, thought timing, because we mentioned how our thoughts are have a diurnal pattern, as well as drug timing so that Chrono pharmacology very commonly the alcohol to teach see different psychedelics you know? or just coffee, certain things that we might be taking.

And then of course, pharmaceutical drugs, supplements, some of these have taken at the wrong time wrong dosages can also really impact our experience of life in our sleep wake cycles. So, all of those are out there and available for us to dive into and yours might be unique. You know, for one person, it might be more about the thoughts that they're having for another person, it might be clearly about the meal timing, and you know, late night eating, or who knows, there's different things that could be lurking, that could be impacting your sleep results, as well is environmentally, like where you choose to live, what's in your bedroom, if you have mold present, if there's certain quality factors as far as the type of bedding, and you know, temperature in your space, so the list goes on and on.

But I share all that so that if we didn't hit on some of these things, then just know that those are some things that might speak to you. And if any of those pop out, then those could be areas that you could kind of go down the rabbit hole, and then explore and see, oh, if I change some of these tests, some of these out, move around my gym time or what have you, does that play a role in my sleep results. So that's where consumer grade trackers can really shine. But my point is to get everyone hopefully, in this game of improving your sleep.

Nik Tarascio 

Man, if only they were asleep, coaches, yeah. Like I get it, I get it now. Like, it's so funny. If someone had told me years ago, like, there's a person who just helps people sleep better be like, really, and then they hear stuff. And I'm like, oh, my God, we need more of you.

Mollie Eastman 

Four of you. This is the problem. There's only run 7000 Sleep professionals in the United States with millions of people. So, on how to on the ground implement some of these things. And sadly, of those sleep professionals, a lot of them have two toolkits they have get you tested for sleep apnea. And if you don't have sleep apnea, buy, or do CBTI cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. Now not to discount because there certainly are some professionals super cutting edge. But sadly, some of the old school approaches were just those two things. And if those didn't work for you, you know, good luck.

Nik Tarascio 

Wow. Well, I could truly go on for days on this because my mind is like a sponge for like, tell me all the things. But you know, I think what I'll recommend to myself as what I recommend to everybody else, is like truly go follow Molly on Instagram, I get that content useful sign up for her newsletter, you could go to sleep as a skill.com. You could also get a free sleep assessment on our site as well. So, and then when the book comes out, hopefully we'll all be aware of it since we'll be following you everywhere. You're amazing. Yeah, very much looking forward to that. But yeah, thank you again, for you know, putting so much heart into this work and just helping us care more about it. Right. Like really that's why I said at the beginning like it's create some pain because I need it and I think we all need it. So that we can overcome that annoying dull hum of I just I'm tired all the time. And I'm kind of the and my invitation is hopefully you do dive in headfirst and get into the wonderful world of sleep optimization and sleep is a skill sleep health. And I hope you're all very happy about it. So, thank you, Molly, for being here.

Mollie Eastman 

Thank you, Nick. You're amazing. Thank you for taking the time and creating a forum like this and sharing yourself vulnerably it's just incredible.

Nik Tarascio  Thank you. Take care everybody. Thank you for listening to the dream beyond. I hope that you received whatever message or inspiration you were meant to get from today's episode. I had a great time recording it for you. If you love the show, please take 30 seconds to subscribe to the rate and review it. That really helps get the word out. And if you want to connect with me, you can find me at

instagram.com/niktarascio

linkedin.com/in/nikTarascio

youtube.com/nTarascio

[the-dream-beyond]

Episode 25: The Art of Gratitude Mastery

Chris Schembra 

I was diagnosed with a high severity of ADHD. And from from that moment, as a five year old, I was put on the medication. First it was Ritalin, then it was concerned, and then it was Adderall. By the time I was done 15 years later, at the age of 20. I was on 86 milligrams of Adderall a day.

Nik Tarascio 

Sometimes success comes to people, because they love what they do, and they just work really hard at it. But more often than not, at least in my experience, success comes to people who feel like, they're not worthy of being there, they have to do more, they have to earn more, they have to be bigger, better, stronger, so they can finally feel like they're worthy of the circumstances that they're in. It's almost like a survivor's guilt or who the hell was it to be born into such fortunate circumstances. And I think on some level, that becomes the tip of the spear for us feeling like we don't belong in our lives, that's the imposter syndrome is, Do I deserve this? Are people going to come kick my door off the hinges and say, You don't you don't deserve to be you, you're out of here, but uh, you don't know what you're talking about. And today's conversation really gets into the surprising link between that sensation or that belief, and potentially a lack of gratitude and how learning gratitude practices can help us unwind that sense of being an imposter in our own lives. And to really allow ourselves the experience to go into the heart and experience some of that healing. So I hope you really enjoy this episode. It's pretty, pretty interesting one for me.

Welcome to the dream beyond. I'm your host, Nik Tarascio. I'm a CEO, musician and overall seeker of Truth, inspiration, and simply put, how to live the most fulfilling life possible. Growing up surrounded by extremely wealthy and successful people gave me unique and unfiltered perspectives of those who have seemingly made it through on the dream beyond, we're letting you in on what it really takes to achieve your dreams. What happens when it turns out your destination isn't the promised land, you are expecting how to process the lessons from your past while mapping of course to true fulfillment. Let's get started.

Hey, guys, I'm here with Wall Street Journal Best Selling Author of gratitude through hard times and gratitude and pasta, recognized as the gratitude guru by USA Today. And he's a founding member of Rolling Stone magazine's culture Council. And he's part of the executive board member. He's an executive board member at Fast Company Magazine, founder of the 747 Gratitude experience, a proven framework enhancing client team relationships. It's worked with over 500,000 workplace connections with that work. And please welcome my buddy Chris Shaumbra. Dude, you're amazing. So glad to have you here. Nick.

Chris Schembra 

I'm just so so so tremendous joy, to be here. You know, I find joy in watching your success, the way you've grown and evolved as a leader, as an owner, as, as, as, as a friend. Through these years, it's been a wonderful journey. And I'm excited to see this chapter of your evolution.

Nik Tarascio 

Man, I appreciate that. And yeah, so for background, Chris and I for a short time, we're in a men's group together, and just got to go super deep. So there's people that, you know, again, it's not the quantity of time, it's the quality. And I would say with you, Chris, it's always been amazing moments. And similarly, just happy to celebrate all your successes and also a chance to catch up with everyone else just watching along for the ride. So

Chris Schembra 

you guys are seeing our just friend a friend catch up. Yeah,

Nik Tarascio 

exactly. Exactly. So hopefully people get a kick out of that. But let's go way back. Because again, I just think you're such an incredible storyteller. And I wanted to start off with when you were little What did you dream you'd be when you grew up.

Chris Schembra 

Whoa. When I was little, what did I dream I would be when I grew up. Nick, here's a vulnerable answer that question. I didn't dream. While so kind of got tears coming to my eyes. When I was five, I was very rambunctious. I was very creative. I had a lot of energy, even more energy than you see. Now as a 36 year old in New York City. I wanted to do everything under the sun. And when the community when doctors when my parents started noticing that that I got guy couldn't be kept quiet. I was liable to do anything anything might happen. It was about the same time that now a friend of mine, Ned Halliwell had just published his groundbreaking book driven to distraction. And he was introducing really the concepts of ADHD into the world. And sure enough, I went to those doctors every Saturday up in Charleston, South Carolina and I was diagnosed post with a high severity of ADHD. And from from that moment, as a five year old, I was put on the medication. First it was Ritalin than it was considered, and then it was Adderall. By the time I was done 15 years later, at the age of 20, I was on 86 milligrams of Adderall a day. Now, and a lot of you listening, probably know, people that might take five milligrams to stay up all night to cram for a last minute test was on 86 a day. And as a result of those amphetamines between the age of five, and between the age of 20, not only do I not remember most of it. It's a big black hole of my memory. But I also didn't dream. The medicine robbed me of dreams of my future, it was really good at keeping me in the present, helping me be efficient, and linear and logical and organized. But I wasn't authentically dreaming myself. So I don't have a good answer to that.

Nik Tarascio 

How would you describe that? In the presence of that, like, do you even recall what it was like to be in the experience of a mind that didn't form dreams or fantasies of what could be or imagined things that weren't yet?

Chris Schembra 

I don't remember knowing any better. I don't remember questioning whether any of this was meant to be, or was different than what other people were going through. It was just my reality. And I think for so many people that are listening to this podcast, you probably look at your own life and realize, gosh, I didn't know I needed more in my life, or that I needed less in my life until years later, connecting the dots backwards, and looking at all the patterns, you know, along the way. And so I, I don't think that I had the clarity of mind to say, this ain't right. And this might screw me up for a little bit. Yeah,

Nik Tarascio 

I mean, I relate to that very much. I think my mind was always a little different growing up. And I've struggled oddly enough, it must have been two months ago, I was sitting in Europe, in one of the most beautiful settings on an island called Acharya, the island that was named after where Icarus apparently fell into the waters. And I was like, you know, I know, I'm here. Like, in my head, I know, I'm on this beautiful island. And I know I'm having a good time, but I don't feel it. Like I find that it's like the word gratitude is a beautiful word. I could explain the concept. But I don't think I actually can feel gratitude in my body. And so a lot of my curiosity about today, too, is like, you know, how do we really get this stuff to, to reconcile in our nervous system, right? It's not just the ideas and what most of us live in our heads. But to that point, it's like so who you are you had 15 of these incredibly seminal years where you couldn't dream about the future. How do you think that informed who you ultimately became? Yeah,

Chris Schembra 

great question. I think it gave me the knowledge it gave me it gave my body the knowledge of what it feels like to know not. Yeah, not remember, yearn for connection, feel like I was different. Whatever, you know, alongside the ADHD medicine, they gave me they also put me in my own special room. During classes. They gave me my own special testing rooms during testing. And I did a lot of different things different. And I internalized that convincing myself that I was either the last one called to the party or my invite was always lost in the mail and woe is me, and trauma, trauma, trauma, and blah, blah, blah. So it gave me this narrative that I attached myself to. In the years after I got off the medicine, I think it's kind of weird that I attached myself to the narrative that like, I was different. I had bigger trauma than others. I have this 15 year memory block. And I went through this like really entitled period of woe is me. I deserve special treatment. I'm the victim here. And once I started to realize that I was doing that I realized that I was doing things all wrong, and that I is actually not that special not that unique, and I had more in common than I had differences with others. And so this whole thinking back of the memory loss, and the entitlement afterwards, just gave me a big dose of perspective of feeling of emotions that I could latch on to, when I'm sitting on the beach, and life looks perfect, but I'm not feeling it inside my heart. And so I have a memory bank of emotion, of shame, of guilt, of entitlement of all these things that I can go back to, in order to remind myself I am capable of feeling the emotions I'm supposed to feel in life. Now,

Nik Tarascio 

it's beautiful to go to the dark place and experience the full range of what's possible, and get that context that you've given yourself. And again, like that curiosity to me goes to so interesting that a person who couldn't really feel what it was like to just be there in that moment, has become the gratitude guru.

Chris Schembra 

You know what, I have this burning desire on my heart, to make sure that others never feel the way I want spelt in my life. Right, whatever the combination of, oh, by the way, my parents were fantastic. I grew up in the idyllic community, I had a great on paper childhood. And the fact that I was just screaming on the inside. I was yearning to be seen. I was feeling lonely at many times. I was scared to speak out, doing all these things. The fact that I felt that way in my life means I am so committed to making sure nobody feels that way themselves. And that's why we dedicate our entire lives to helping people create meaningful moments of human connection. So they feel a little bit less, alone a little bit less different, and a genuine sense of belonging. And so I think I needed to go through everything that I've ever been through in order to end up in this exact seat on this podcast, here today, doing the work that I love, by the way, the work that I question every single day. And that's part of the beauty of it.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, well, that's great, because we're gonna dive right in. I mean, it's just Asst. I have so many questions about gratitude. But that's what people know, you predominantly forged your the gratitude guy. And yeah, I want to go into the darkness a little bit, because when I saw your last email come through, and I saw one little lie where you mentioned imposter syndrome, oh, my gosh, shit, man. Like, it's just that's the thing. That's the thing is like, I just don't want anyone to just rip the mask off of me and say, like, there, you really are. Terrifying. It's terrifying. And I wonder if in some ways, you know, I know a lot of people feel it, I get, I don't want to think I'm so special with it, or maybe that you're so special with it. But I imagine that for people that had that other experience as a child, always feeling like other, they kind of reinforced it. And it made it like, to this day, I will be in a room full of people be like, Wow, it's interesting. Everyone else seems really connected. And I feel like I'm a placeholder at times. And I'm like, what is that? So I'm curious to know for you, especially as an adult, I mean, you're you're just around contract constantly interesting people doing constantly interesting stuff. How is impostor syndrome showed up in your life?

Chris Schembra 

Yeah, gosh, golly, it runs rampant. You know, it's I think imposter syndrome is something that plagues me almost every day, even though I have a few good, tactical solutions for it. I think it's like, I think it's like 90% of my days, impostor syndrome. And by the way, you know, I should probably even look up what the, the, the clinical definition of impostor syndrome is. It's a behavioral health phenomenon described as having self doubt of intellect, skills, or accomplishments among high achieving individuals. So right there. There's two, two lines that summarize impostor syndrome in my life. Comparison is the thief of joy. Envy is the author of the soul. So often in life, we can pair what we see out on social media and the accomplishments of these highly successful individuals. We compare them to our own Journey, we compare our worst human highlights or lowlights to other people's once in a lifetime human highlights, right, someone shares, you know, a big win on social media, you're only getting one specific glimpse of their life, yet you compare your entire life to those things. And so when you surround yourself, I mean, it's kind of a funny thing. People say your net worth is your net, your network is your net worth. So surround yourself by five successful individuals, and you will be the sixth successful individual, but at the same time saying, how do you not compare their successes to yours.

So, you know, in my life, I am a, I'm a keynote speaker. I am a experience facilitator. I'm an author. I'm a thought leader. Yet the majority of the people that I surround myself with are founders and CEOs of publicly traded, or mid market, big companies, these are my friends, these are my mentors, they've got billions in the bank, they got everything that like anybody could ever want on paper, right? So I'm constantly comparing my tiny little non scalable business to their big, scalable monster. And it creates self doubt, anxiety, uncertainty, overwhelm all these negative things. And I've luckily found a few simple solutions to them. But you know that they really sidetrack me, on a daily basis, like our brains are wired to, we actually process nine bits of negative information. For every one bit of positive information. Our brains are wired to do that, because it kept us alive 1000s of years ago, right, when we're roaming around the world, when we were roaming around the Great Plains, we had to remember, don't eat that bury, don't get eaten by that lion, stay together as a tribe or you will die, we had to only focus on the negative to stay alive. But our worlds a little bit different these days. There's not the threat of death or disease at every corner anymore. So why don't we retrain our brains to appreciate the positive rather than dwell on the negative? My imposter syndrome, I dwell on the negative a lot per day.

Nik Tarascio 

So you, you are able to relate to me in a way that that gratitude has some sort of correlation to imposter syndrome, or there's some sort of connection between the two and I'm, I don't remember exactly how you phrased it, but how does, how does your understanding of gratitude relate to imposter syndrome for you? Yeah,

Chris Schembra 

so gratitude, we define as the, the acknowledgement of the value, or the benefits that you've received from others. So I'll start with one of our hypothesis, which is that, you know, impostor syndrome and gratitude can't coexist. Gratitude is the acknowledgement of the benefits you've received from others. Gratitude helps you develop humility, and a posture of otherness, in relation to others. Imposter syndrome is self doubt, anxiety, very internalized, very self viewed, way of thinking about yourself, right, you're, you're thinking, I suck, I have nothing to offer, i. Now, that is a very introspective, only considering yourself, view of the world. Gratitude is the acknowledgement of the value you've received from others that creates a posture of otherness. When you wake up to the benefits that you've received in your life, and you give gratitude to the people that have helped you get to where you are today, you acknowledged that they invested something of value into you. Now of you're walking around, saying, I'm a piece of shit, I have no value. I have nothing to offer the world. I am an impostor. What's that saying about the people that invested great benefits into you? What's that saying about that third grade teacher that bought you your first violin because they saw something in you? What's that saying about that investor?

Who gave you a $400 million, Series B? Who saw a value in you? What's it saying to the person in the subway that held open the door because it looked like they were just a nice person. So a posture of otherness, this humility, this being in relation with others can solve that imposter, self directed view. So the second thing of gratitude and impostor syndrome, is how we look at ourselves. So, gratitude to oneself is a really hard thing, it's really hard to look at your life and say, Gosh, I'm filled with great benefits. And I've provided great value towards others. And I've provided great value to myself, and I have a lot of redeeming qualities. And I have a lot of really cool things that I'm known for. It's really hard to do that. And yet, it's really healing to acknowledge the benefits that you've given yourself, the value that you've invested in yourself, the value that you've provided to others, I am grateful that I showed up to my friends book launch party, because it had a positive benefit on the audience. I am grateful that I invested into a gym membership, because it's provided a positive benefit to my gym membership community. That's gratitude towards self. I'm grateful that I show up to work every day, with a burning desire in my heart to have a positive impact on others. That's self gratitude. So self gratitude, the more you give it, the more it abolishes self doubt. When you acknowledge the positive benefits you've given others, you eliminate the self doubt of not being enough. I'm still struggling on making those links together. But that's the kind of the core hypothesis. See, I think that imposter syndrome is a massive thing of entitlement. Entitlement. Yeah. Entitlement, to me shows up in two ways. Either people are walking around the world with the superiority complex, thinking that they're better than others, and therefore they deserve special treatment. And they are everything that they are God and they are the incarnation of Jesus Christ. Like that's an entitlement attitude. The other way that I think entitlement shows up is when people walk around with a victim mindset.

And they think their trauma is bigger than other people's trauma. And therefore the world should show them special attention. They deserve it. I think impostor syndrome fits in that same kind of boat. Imposter syndrome is, I have self doubt, I have anxieties, I have insecurities. And that's what makes me different than you. Imposter syndrome, without empathizing that other people might have impostor syndrome, creates disconnect, creates entitlement. When you have impostor syndrome, one of the ways of getting out of it is to actually just talk about it with others who are going through similar impostor syndromes. And you'll realize you're not alone. And you actually have a massive amount of things in common with others.

Nik Tarascio 

Right, so let's back up. He said some things here that I'm like, I'm really trying to process some of this stuff. Because there's a lot there, this idea of entitlement, I can track that I can see that there's entitlement on both sides of the coin, there, it

Chris Schembra 

entitlement is when you're so focused on yourself. You don't acknowledge others that have given you benefits that have picked you up through hard times that are going through hard times, etc. Right? It's self focus, first posture of otherness. Imposter syndrome is the same way. You're self focused, you're in a pity party, you're having self doubt. You're saying Woe is me. I don't deserve this. I'm a fake, I'm a fraud. When people around me actually realize who I am. They're going to stop believing in me. They're going to stop investing in me, they're going to stop wanting to hang around me. And so gratitudes limits entitlement by a. If you're walking around with a superiority complex, you think you're the shit you've gotten here alone. You didn't need the help of others. Gratitude reverses that. Gratitude helps you acknowledge you receive benefits from others, you learn from others. You aren't the Superior Man in the room. You need to learn from people on a daily basis. Gratitude limits entitlement it and victim mindset by saying, when you're walking around with a victim mindset, and you pretend like your shit, your trauma is bigger than everybody else's shit or trauma, you're essentially convincing yourself, no one could even come close to providing enough value or benefit to get me out of my victim shit. So I might as well just sit in it forever. But when you acknowledge the benefits and the value you've received from others, that have picked you up through hard times, right? That is gratitude. I'm grateful for that person, for picking me up. After my traumatic experience, I'm going to focus on the positive benefits through that gratitude rather than the negative consequences of that traumatic life experience. It picks you up out of that victim mindset and into an attitude of gratitude.

Nik Tarascio 

So now Now, now, I want to dive a little bit deeper on this because there's you're talking about this, you know, I've heard a lot of people say you can't truly give love to another human until you can love yourself. Correct. So people talk about that building block his gratitude, the same thing. Yep. Where you can't just go around, throwing gratitude all over the place. If you can't feel gratitude for yourself.

Chris Schembra 

Yeah, you have to have gratitude. It's, it's, you know, we, we call it the concentric circles of gratitude. And it's modeled after Hera pleases concentric circles of concern. From ancient Rome, ancient Greek, ancient Greece, Hara cleaves drew a concentric circles, concentric circles, of what he thought was cosmopolitanism, what he thought was, you should take you should have as much concern for people on the exterior of these concentric circles, as you have concern for yourself, which is in the interior of the circle, the interior is yourself. The next ring of the circles is your family. Next circle is your friends. Next circle is your co workers. Next circle is the people that live in your city. The next circle is the people or humanity as a whole, inherently said that you should care as much about the people on the external, the exterior of the circles, as you do people on the interior of the circles, and so those concentric circles model was invented there. And we have our own concentric circles of gratitude, which is, first you have to be grateful for yourself, then take care to give gratitude to the people that close most closely surround you, your family, and then your friends, and then the people in your city and then humanity as a whole. Acknowledge the positive benefits you've received, not only from a farmer in Africa, who grew the coffee that you drink every day, at the same time as saying, Gosh, I've never thought to thank my mother for all the benefits I've derived from her. He got to do both equal.

Nik Tarascio 

Now I got a lot to pick my mom what it's but it's that you have.

Chris Schembra 

Yeah, like what, you

Nik Tarascio 

know, I was actually just thinking that, and hopefully I will have this conversation with her before this comes out extensively, like, you know, you could just call me and told me that stuff. But it was more of like, as I've as I've grown up, I'm the one kid in the family who doesn't live within, I don't know, a mile or two other house, all my siblings are within a mile or two. And I've noticed that I've not acknowledged the fact that though I don't show up as much to stuff, like my love is still as much as anybody else who's there more often. And I feel how much she would show up anytime I ever need anything. She's there for me, if I you know, and I've never really expressed that, like, I know that she would do that for me. And I want her to know that I would do that for her too. Yet in normal life, it's like I just don't I don't drop in every week because I'm not a mile or two away. And I've just never said that to her. But like it actually weighs on my heart. I'm like, Man, oh, man, like I would hate that she would think that I love her any less. Because I'm there less. And I don't think I express gratitude very much.

Chris Schembra 

The good news is gratitude practice on an infrequent basis, like what you're saying right here can be overcome by showing gratitude in the language the recipient likes to authentically receive.

Nik Tarascio 

What's an example of a so

Chris Schembra 

I'll give you a story. One day, I had, I had a friend named Henry, who had provided tremendous benefits in my life. He is a good friend. He's a good leader. He's a good partner. He's a good philanthropic supporter and so many other things for so many people and I felt like giving him authentic gratitude. And so I called up this artist and I said, Hey artists I'm gonna give you some snippets of my buddy Henry's life story. Can you engrave it on a special mug that you can send to him that he can drink out of every day. And this artist worked on this mug and he engraved it and he put it in a big wooden box and it came with a video message and he sent it off to Henry and then crickets. I never hear from Andrea about the mug again, oh, we text and DM and talk and all these kinds of things. But I never heard back about the mug and one day I called up, Henry and I said, Do you ever get the mug? Yes. Did you like it? Yes. Curious. What language do you like to receive gratitude in Henry? He said quality time and acts of service. Let me guess You like giving gifts. And in that moment, I realized holy cannoli. I've had it all wrong. I tried to give Henry gratitude and the language that was most convenient for me to give. And when the giver gives gratitude and language that's that they like to give it in that can come across selfish, lazy, insincere. Gratitude given in the language, Henry would have liked to have received it in quality time and acts of service would have been authentically heard and validated and received.

So we would talk about the languages of appreciation. I'm talking about Gary Chapman's book, The Five Love Languages. There's this guy, Gary, for all you listeners that haven't read the book, there's this guy, Gary, who found that people like to receive love, gratitude and appreciation one to five ways or in integrating a variety of five ways. Quality Time, acts of service gifts, physical touch, words of affirmation. And you got to go out of your way, to understand how the people you're trying to give authentic gratitude to want to receive it for it to be received authentically. So what I just said about you neck, and your mother is that the ratio of time spent, or gratitude given or not being nearby, can be overcome by giving gratitude in the authentic language that your mother likes to receive it in a meaningful way. And when you nail down that formula, it far outweighs you're not living a mile or two away from them.

Nik Tarascio 

How would you ascertain that? Will you ever just like you asked a person in this case? Would you generally ask someone if you weren't sure? Yeah.

Chris Schembra 

Just ask them. Hey, person A, let's say, you know, all you value leaders that are listening to this call. You got someone on your team, you've got someone who's done an outstanding job, whether it's a new intern, or the executive system that's been with you for 35 years. Straight up, go and say, Hey, person, look, I've received a tremendous amount of value and benefits from you over the last number of time. You know, I specifically wanted to give you gratitude for the time that blank blank blank happened. And this is how it felt when you did that blank, blank, blank thing. What language might I best communicate this gratitude? In to you? I mean, do you like words of affirmation in the form of a letter? Do you like quality time? Can we go on a vacation together? Can we go volunteer at your favorite local nonprofit? How can I be of service to you and your mission? Ask these people these things? And even if they don't answer or don't know the language, they'll be floored that you took the time to empathize and understand how they like to receive that, that love and appreciation, it will move the world for them. I've seen it happen 1000s of times. Amazing. I mean, if you're if you're a leader on this call, you need to understand for instance, that there is a new science of customer customer emotions, that you have to tap into your customers. They want to feel seen, to feel a sense of thrill of belonging, of recognition of appreciation, Your customers are demanding more now more than ever. And so when you take the time, to empathize and to understand how they like to receive this appreciation At statistically speaking, they will buy more, promote more and demonstrate more loyalty. Guaranteed. Alright,

Nik Tarascio 

well, for anybody who has been following along on video, we completely lost our feed, and are starting completely a new a week after we recorded the last piece. So hopefully the continuity is not destroyed. But yeah, so I wanted to shift gears anyway. I mean, Chris, you've shared a lot about impostor syndrome, you know, gratitude as it relates to impostor syndrome, which I've never thought about before. You hit on the five love languages, there's a lot of stuff there. I'm curious from this space of like, you've, you've done so much stuff, you've achieved a lot of stuff with your life. And what do you dream about? Now? What's your dream beyond?

Chris Schembra 

Yeah. Hello, everybody. Good to see you all. Again. I hope my internet doesn't cut out again this time, because that would be a two for to and we'd have to record in person. And God forbid, I had to see Nick in person. No. Yeah. What is? Yeah, what what is next for me, you know what I, I think what is next for me, is to heal my heart. And, you know, it's so funny, my whole message of starting our company, are in the brief and only only remember if I told it in the first part, but just as a reiteration to folks, a story that I've told maybe 1000s of times, on every meeting on every stage on every experience, whatever. The story I tell is that in July of 2015, I just gotten back from producing a Broadway play in Italy. And I found myself in my studio apartment in Manhattan, lonely, unfulfilled, disconnected, insecure. Just because a life looked good on paper, didn't mean it felt good in the heart. I had achieved tremendous success pretty early in life. And I kind of woke up, due to the amazing trip to Italy, I kind of woke up and realized this ain't living. This is working. The industry and colleagues and friends had said nice things about what I was doing with my life. But it didn't really feel good on the inside.

Just because life looks good on paper doesn't mean it feels good in the heart. And I'll save the longer story for later. But that's when I started hosting dinner parties and feeding people and cooking pasta sauce. And that's what birth my company. And you know, the important thing to double click on is just because the life looks good on paper doesn't mean it feels good and heart. So now here we are. My life looks so damn good on paper. I mean, you read my bio, people can Google me, you can read shit on the internet, whatever. I got fancy titles. Nice things have been said by nice people. Life looks good on paper. But folks, I'll tell you, it doesn't feel good in the heart. And every day I wake up trying to figure out what's wrong with me? What's broken in me? Why does my heart so agitated? This shit is real. And so the next chapter for me is to lean into that and start working on my heart more than I've been working on my heart in the past, because that's the only way that I have a chance of surviving. And if I if I do the dirty job of surviving, that I might have a potential to have a positive impact on people until the day I die. But I gotta take care of my heart first, and I've been neglecting it for a long time. You know, it's interesting. The Actually, I'll just stop with that. Yeah, yeah. Well,

Nik Tarascio 

I mean, I want a bomb to drop at the end of the episode. It's, it's obviously, we

Chris Schembra 

can make this the start of the episode, by the way. Yeah.

Nik Tarascio 

I mean, it's like yeah, things are good. Imposter syndrome. Gratitude. My heart though. Like I relate to that. I mean, what you're talking about, it's so funny. I had the experience of being in Italy over the summer. And it was really amazing. Just to be like, life is so externally incredible. What the hell is going on inside? Like, what is happening that the inside is not mirroring the outside experience at times? And so the concept of healing the heart, I mean, this is I started out talking about this earlier in the episode is like, I remember, actually, I was in Greece for this when I was in Greece during this European tour. And I remember being like, oh shit, I can't feel gratitude in my body. I don't know what it feels like. I don't I mean, I've I I understand Raschi what it is in my head. So I agree with you this like this connection to the heart, whether it's a mind body or a mind heart connection. I think that's a powerful thing to talk about. Yeah,

Chris Schembra 

I think it's a, you know, I went out to went out to coffee a couple of days ago with this person named Charlotte. And she brought a philosophy book to, to the coffee chat. And I said, Why did you bring your philosophy book? She said, Well, it was on my nightstand next to my actual book that she wanted to bring to show me that she was reading my book. And she just felt like bring the philosophy book I said, open up to a random page and read a line for me. And she read a line. And it said, no amount of thought, can solve a psychological problem. And the way I interpreted that, which is my own personal interpretation, if you're watching this, you have your own interpretation, so don't villainize me. But my interpretation was just talking out our problems, or just intellectualizing our problems are just the thinking about our problems. It does some good, right. But working on the heart, working on the body to solve these big deep problems, from our childhood, our wounds, our inherited trauma, whatever it may be, that's the shit that that I think, is the future of problem solving. Right?

Mental Health has gotten us. Right, I kind of look, I kind of look at the wellness industry in a series of waves. So first, in like the 1940s 50s 60s 70s 80s, whatever people started paying attention to their physical well being, you saw the rise of you know, dance, body fitness, and Richard Simmons, and type, Taekwondo or, you know, tie bow and all these kinds of things. So you saw money going into physical health. And then in the 2000s, people really started taking it seriously about mental health, you see, mental health startups, you see a rise in therapy, you see a rise and all these kinds of things in the in the head? Well, I think the future of wellness is social, emotional, well being, I think you could go to a therapist and talk it out all you want, but are you really getting down to the what's going on in the heart going on in the feelings. And so the idea of solving, you know, for that I think I'm really, really excited about and, you know, I go work on the heart through a variety of ways. But I think I've taken off the last couple months from those ways. I go to Reiki energy healers, I go to psychedelic assisted therapy, I go to, I used to go to BDSM, you know, dominatrixes that helped me reconnect with my inner child, like I used to do all this work, and I haven't done in a few months. So I really gotta go back out and dive into that.

Nik Tarascio 

Well, I have not had some of those experiences that you spoke about. Sounds like great advice for anybody who wants to just take a wild ride. I mean, it is anything that gets you into your body, right, a lot of the things you spoke about was about getting into your body. The thing that's really interesting in the place that a lot of my attention has gone over the last year is I don't know if you're familiar with internal family systems or parts work. Now I've heard of that before. Now. It's ultimately it's ultimately like a somatic practice of, I'm actually gonna do another episode on this at some point. But I've been really wanting to talk about parts, like it's a part of my life that I've strangely enough not spoken about much something that I'm basically a coach that's informed and how to use these somatic practices of like, get out of your head, let's get into your body and let's see what the hell's going on very much like the body keeps score. If you've ever read that book, and really look, exactly it's in our body, it's not in our head, as you said, like solving at the level of head is probably not going to do much. I did lots of you know, talk coaching and talk therapy and all that kind of stuff. Didn't move the needle all that much.

But between that and the other thing I've recently dove into headfirst is using lucid dreaming as a way to meet deep aspects of your subconscious or unconscious mind. And so like, again, healing at that level is really interesting learning about it. They say it's, you know, I think like the thing people would say is like, oh two years of therapy can be solved in one psychedelic session, which can be solved in about 30 seconds at a lucid dream. It is wild how quick you Can you just say like, show me what I don't know about myself, show me the shadow show me my heart, whatever that is. And I recently had a lucid dream where I was able to meet some of my resistance to relationship. And it was totally mind blowing. So I agree with you. It's the answers in the body, the answers in the heart, a lot of this psych, you know, Western psychology all up in the head. It's not, it's not getting the results that we hoped for. And I'm not I'm not, I'm not anti. But, you

Chris Schembra 

know, I think there's a need for people to learn skills like emotion regulation, distress, tolerance, mindfulness, interpersonal effectiveness, these are four quadrants of skills that I've enjoyed learning recently, through a six month cycle of dialectical behavioral therapy. It's a form of therapy, that's more like going to a class to learn skills, so that when something pops up, you know, the skill to use to mitigate the anger or the fear or the shame or the guilt or whatever the emotion is, without having to read dredge old wounds. You know, the my favorite, my favorite, favorite quote, from Have you ever read Steven Pressfield? The War of Art?

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, great book.

Chris Schembra 

Fantastic book, one of the, for everybody listening. This super, like short. It's like 160 page book. But each page is like, a paragraph. It's like super punctual, very readable, with like, 20,000 reviews on Amazon, you're gonna love it. But it's the idea that we all have these like, you have these like dreams to like, write, or paint, or start a business, or diet or exercise or run a marathon like we all have this, like dream to do something. But what stands in our way of doing that thing is internal resistance. We never start, we never finish, we get distracted. We say woe is me, we get impostor syndrome, whatever. And he says, resistance loves healing. Resistance knows that the more psychic energy we expend dredging or re dredging, the tired boring and justices of our personal lives, the less juice we have to do our own work. Which means that like going to talk therapy, twice a week, and dredging and read dredging shit from our past might be just distracting us from actually developing the resilience and strength needed to overcome our own internal resistance and dive into creating our best work.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, I mean, I could I could second that were, I think parts where it talks about that as I mean, you think of the fact that so many of our issues are based on the fact that we rationalize our own life. We rationalize the things we don't want to be doing. But we say here's why it's good. And when you go into talk therapy, there's the chance that your rationalizer is creating these massive narratives that say, Let's never go below the neck. We don't want to mess with the stuff that's going down in there. We're solving problems we're making. Like actually, we're just running the hamster wheel. The jury's

Chris Schembra 

out. Yeah,

Nik Tarascio 

yeah, I'm not well,

Chris Schembra 

I'm not the expert on knowing what's going on. I'm very, I'm very happy about some new things that are coming out in the land of therapy, specifically around psychedelic assisted therapy to overcome PTSD and eating disorders and all these kinds of things. My friend Rachel Yehuda runs the Carl Icahn School of Psychedelic Studies at Mount Sinai. And she's got a big research center that's doing clinical trials around PTSD, and all these wonderful things with MDMA and LSD and psilocybin. So I'm very excited about things that are coming out soon about psychedelic assisted therapy.

Nik Tarascio 

Well, there's three topics that I'll be hitting on, hopefully over the next couple of months, we got psychedelics, internal family systems, or some sort of somatic therapy. And of course, we got to talk about lucid dreaming at some point. So yeah,

Chris Schembra 

and you are well, they're very cool

Nik Tarascio 

stuff. You're up to so many cool things. And I appreciate you sharing from the heart again. I mean, I didn't, I didn't fully acknowledges how deep you went by saying it's time to heal the heart. But I think that's an invitation for all of us is, a lot of our hearts are hurting. A lot of us are not feeling our feelings. And I appreciate you taking us there in the conversation. Yeah. So again, just kind of going back to what this episode was really all about. I know we went on a circuitous path. We even took a brief pause for a week in the middle of it. So this is a little bit different. What were the ones we've done before but man when it really comes to that imposter syndrome. I think it's coming back to the idea of seeing it as an invitation to go inward and understand And why is it about a lack of gratitude to self or others? Is it about a different wound or a deeper wound or belief systems that we took from our childhood, like what's going on in our body? We're probably not going to solve it at the level of head. And I hope for anybody that feels that way. Just know, it's, there's plenty of people that have achieved incredible things.

Chris is a great example of them. And still to hear that there are those moments of like, What the hell have I actually done if I can't feel it? So you're not alone if you're having that experience. And the future sounds exciting as well for people that are not just dealing with, Hey, I just need to learn gratitude as a tool. But if you are dealing with mental health issues and emotional challenges and trauma, it sounds like the future is quite bright with a lot of these things that are that are coming out around the psychedelic assisted therapy, different somatic modality. So yeah, it'll be it'll be a better world soon. And with that, if you're curious to learn more about what Chris is up to, you could take you could check out christianbook.com This is Chris's new website. Congrats again on getting the website launch Chris. And then you could also check out his column on rollingstone.com. We'll put the the actual link in the show notes. And man Chris, I could talk to you for days. I am sure you and I are going to sync up very soon in person. Recap all kinds of cool stuff.

Chris Schembra 

I'm excited about thanks for having me.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, I appreciate it. I hope you all enjoyed it be well. Thank you for listening to the dream beyond. I hope that you received whatever message or inspiration you were meant to get from today's episode. I had a great time recording it for you. If you love the show, please take 30 seconds to subscribe rate and review it. That really helps get the word out. And if you want to connect with me, you can find me at

instagram.com/niktarascio

linkedin.com/in/nikTarascio

youtube.com/nTarascio

[the-dream-beyond]

Episode 24 - Money Matters: Scott Peppet on Conflict, Spirituality, and Ethical Wealth

Scott Peppet 

inheriting money's really complicated for people, and often very damaging, and very difficult if you live bunch of money to your kid or your grandkid. And there's no preparation for that. And there's no training and there's no learning. And there's no, there's no conversation of like the one we're having about, what is this? What is its purpose? What is it going to do in your life, you're essentially handing that kid a loaded gun, and saying, figure it out as you go.

Nik Tarascio 

Today, we're going to be talking about something that is probably one of the most taboo subjects, especially in America, you're not allowed to ask someone how much money they have, what do they have in the bank. And really, it's a conversation that dominates so many of us either chasing after it putting all of our time into getting more defining our self worth by the size of our bank account, or the size of our business. Those of us that inherited money feeling guilty, we deserve it. What would people think if they knew how much we had, if we don't have enough, you know, we are afraid of what the world's gonna do to us. It's so it's so interesting. It's a it's a thing that takes up so much of our life, we don't really talk about it. And so this, this next person is probably one of the few people that can really speak on not just the money piece, our relationship to the money, but really the spiritual aspect of it. What does it mean in our life? What does money mean? What are we supposed to do with it? And how do we find true fulfillment? Despite our relationship, our complex relationship to money?

Welcome to the dream beyond. I'm your host, Nik Tarascio. I'm a CEO, musician, an overall seeker of Truth, inspiration, and simply put, how to live the most fulfilling life possible. Growing up surrounded by extremely wealthy and successful people gave me unique and unfiltered perspectives of those who have seemingly made it through on the dream beyond, we're letting you in on what it really takes to achieve your dreams. What happens when it turns out your destination isn't the promised land, you are expecting how to process the lessons from your past while mapping of course to true fulfillment. Let's get started.

Hey, guys, I'm here with someone who for 18 years was a professor of law at the University of Colorado, he focused on bargaining dispute resolution transactional law and the complexities of multi generational family enterprises. He also serves as president of a family office in which he's part of second generation. He speaks regularly on the topics of family offices, private trust companies and intergenerational leadership. And he's also an ordained Zen Buddhist priest, which I think is so cool to have that broad swath of experience. Please welcome Scott tablet to the show. Thanks for being here, Scott. Awesome. So I would love to dive in with kind of your earliest relationship or earliest memories to the concept of money and wealth when when you were young, or a child, for example.

Scott Peppet 

That's an interesting question. I not sure I remember. The very first experiences I remember. So my, my parents were sort of Midwestern. You know, kids who first in their families, both to go to college. And my dad was a management consultant. He ended up working for Pete Mauer such became keep KPMG. And so they did incredibly well, by any standard they had in their heads of what they could have expected. Right? They, I think they they succeeded far beyond their wildest dreams, but a very, very nice or upper middle class, you know, professional life. I remember probably the earliest memory I have money was my, when we used to ask my father where money came from, or like, how do we pay for things? He would say, he came from the sky. Like it was the somehow it like, you know, arrived. And I remember in retrospect, thinking about that, and thinking later, as an adult, that it was clear that it wasn't something he was very comfortable talking about. Right? It was, it was like an answer that made it sort of ended the conversation, right, it just sort of money kind of appeared. But it wasn't something you know, I was privileged to not have to worry a lot about money growing up. Unlike the two of them, and they when they were growing up. My mom was raised in a boarding house. So I mean, like they had grown up in relatively very different circumstances. But it wasn't until I was you know, going to college with young adult that I started really thinking about money and and how it worked.

Nik Tarascio 

It was part of your upbringing, this concept of money coming from the sky. I've never heard that before. That's a really interesting idea. And I'm wondering if that in any way influenced your path in college or I mean, how did you end up going down this road of getting involved in you know, kind of family law and and transactional, all that kind of stuff.

Scott Peppet 

So I was a Peace Studies major as an undergrad I grew up in part of my life. And I was very young we grew up in, in France, and it was the 70s. And the Cold War was happening and conflict was a real thing. And World War Two, was still a very real memory in Europe, when I was little. And so I think a lot of that influenced me, and I was very focused on conflict and conflict resolution in college. And then when I went to law school, the whole thing I didn't think a lot about, you know, I've always, for whatever reason, money was never particularly interesting to me as a, like, I'm gonna go out and make a lot of money, it was never a real goal of mine, I always thought that I wanted to teach, I always thought that I wanted to do something in the conflict, world to make the world, you know, more peaceful. And so that was really always the vector that I was on was, was a more academic vector. What's always been weird about my life, or my karma, or something is, I've always ended up attracting financial capital or ending up in these contexts with a great deal of financial capital, working with families that had, you know, family businesses, or family wealth or family foundations and then marrying into a family with a large family enterprise. And so I don't know why that is. I'm not sure how that happened. Exactly. But I've always found myself in those contexts, which is a little strange.

Nik Tarascio 

Like, so how did how did your relationship and as an adult, and even through this work and managing conflict? How did your relationship to wealth start to develop on its own?

Scott Peppet 

It's a good question. I mean, I think that, you know, I went to law school and I had this conflict related business that I ran, I was a consultant that I worked with all kinds of different organizations doing conflict management, and conflict resolution, you know, communication skills, negotiation, all that stuff. And so I always felt in my, let's call it in my 20s, or in my 30s, like, I could make enough money. Like, if I needed more, I could go make more, because I was essentially working on a kind of per day basis, right? So you needed more, you had to go find more clients and work more days, I think that the reality is I always was more focused on human capital than on financial capital, just as a human being right as a person. So I was a teacher, I wanted to be a teacher. I was a conflict. person, right? So I was a mediator and a conflict resolution expert. And so my whole thing was trying to get humans to, to be less confused and right to figure out how their way through conflict in a way that was less damaging to them and to others. And so human capital was really always the thing that was more interesting to me than financial capital, financial capital, I think, for a long time felt not toxic, but sort of risky, right? Like it was a thing and it existed in the world, and they had to deal with it. But like, I was never attracted to the, to the Wall Street world, I was never attracted to the big law firm world, you know, we're where the money centers are. I was always much more attracted to human potential and human growth, and, and all of that, and my Zen practice, and my Buddhist practice was probably part of that, too. And it wasn't until much later that I think I kind of combined to reconcile those things, most likely.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, it's it's interesting to also, you know, in my mind, I think about how conflict often centers around money. Yeah, it's like when you think of in family, or even, like, so taboo, I often talk with friends about that, where it's like, if I want to offend someone, I can ask them anything about their sex life, their politics, their political leanings. But if I'm like, How much money do you have? Yeah, it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, take it easy, buddy. We're not allowed to talk about that. Yeah, it's interesting that it's kind of the the one big black box we have at least least in in the American way, you don't really talk about it. And I think of like, when I when I play out a lot of the conflicts I grew up around. I imagine a lot of that was somehow related to me who got more money or, like, you know, if someone died, and we were trying to pass something down to the family, all the fighting that happens when people are trying to figure out how to divide an estate.

Scott Peppet 

Yeah, I don't know that it's true. I can't verify the quote, but I've heard it said that Freud said, sex, religion and money were the three big taboos. And that money was the, you know, the most extreme of those three that you could, people would talk about the other two, way more than they would talk about money. I think it's true. It's true in our culture. You're right, people. People will talk about almost anything now. But they very rarely want to talk about how much they make, how much you make, how much you have, how much they have, where it came from. And yeah, I mean, the conflict thing. Money is a proxy for all kinds of things, right? I mean, money is a proxy for love. Money is a proxy for attention in families, you know, where money can be used in a lot of different ways that isn't always very healthy, and leads to lots of calm flecked where you're arguing about the money. But really what you're arguing about is, Did mom love me more? Are you more, you know? Or Why did dad pay so much more attention to you when we were in high school, and even fighting decades later over an estate plan or something? Because it's a proxy for all of that.

Nik Tarascio 

My my curiosity goes to a comment a friend of mine settled a long time ago was money always finds its way back to its rightful owners. And I think he was really alluding to like, yeah, you could win lotto you could come into a bunch of money, but it's gonna go back to people that understand how to hold the energy of it. And I'm wondering like, is, is the ability to manage conflict, somehow tethered to the ability to hold lots of money? Or are there other behaviors or characteristics that you'd say people that hold a lot of money and keep a lot of money has to be able to be good? Oops?

Scott Peppet 

Well, I think your friend is referring to the basic principle of entropy, right? I mean, the universe is an entropic place. And so the reality is, money is just, you know, aggregated energy and material for right. It's essentially energy. This is from my, my great friend, Jay Hughes. But money is essentially just energy that's been transformed into matter and stored in physical form. And energy, as we know, is in Tropic, right. So the generally, the systems get colder over time. And so I mean, that's a incredible abbreviation, but essentially, right. And so, I do think that, you know, the old adage is that, you know, shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves, and three generations or whatever, it's, it's hard to concentrate energy into matter like that, and store it and have it remain in one place with one person or one family or one one business even controlling or enemy. If you look at the s&p 500. Right now, how many businesses are on the s&p 500? That were there 100 years ago, it's a very small number, for the same reason. And so, to a certain extent, you know, I think your friends common is probably right, which is money, I'm not sure if it gets back to the rightful place necessarily, but it tends to dissipate, right, it tends to go back to the river back to the mean, and a lot of and that's probably, hey, actually, right. I mean, that's probably not a terrible thing. Lots of families and lots of businesses are fighting the uphill battle of trying to prevent that or trying to, you know, maintain what they have. And that's also okay, but but it is, it is, I think, endemic in, in the way the world works, that it's hard to do. And you're fighting against natural forces, including just that families, you know, most families, for example, that have great financial capital, it's because of some person who started the business, right? And did really well, or maybe multiple generations of people. But that talent, that skill, that luck, that ability, doesn't always, you know, get replicated in many, many future generations highly unlikely, with what a great wealth creator has done. And so it's highly unlikely that someone else is going to come along and continue that. And so again, you know, family systems doing what they are, it's typical, that the financial capital starts to dissipate. And I don't think that's necessarily, like I said, I don't think that's bad. I think it can be painful, right? It can be difficult for people, and it can be disorderly and chaotic and cause conflict, and all kinds of things, as it happens. And sometimes, you know, it happens more violently than others. You know, and, and, and sometimes it happens more peacefully, or more commonly, but But it's, I wouldn't say it's inevitable, but it's pretty typical.

Nik Tarascio 

So the, the Buddhism piece of this Zen Buddhism, I guess, you know, as I was reflecting on your background, and your story of, you know, I just always assumed I could just work another day and make more if I needed to, that whole, like, they'll always be enough as kind of what I hear in that. And that's a place I've gone back to myself as I want to get to that space of can I just believe there always be enough. But the flip side being the pain of setting a bar of saying like, these are now my financial standards, and this is where I relate to the world and the energy I need to run it. That pain of the backslide. does Buddhism offer any perspective? Or does your spiritual practice offer any perspective for someone if I can, it's great that you have a, you may not be able to keep it. So there's value in learning how to come to peace with the fact that it may exit at some point, and you may not want to resist that process too much. And

Scott Peppet 

it's funny that that's your follow up question, because as I was speaking, in a prior answer, I was thinking about the basic principle and Buddhism of impermanence, right? I mean, one of the very basic lessons of, of the historical Buddha is The that, that everything is impermanent, everything you know, everything you love everything, everyone you love, every thing you've built, it's all gonna go eventually, right? It's all gonna crumble and, and, and disappear. And that's an incredibly painful thing for humans, because we're attached to things, right? We love our family, we love our house, we love our gold watch, whatever, whatever we love, and are attached to will will vanish eventually, you know, none of it will last. And that's, you know, one of the Buddha's awakening insights was to see that impermanence in the world. So I do think that I mean, again, sort of laughing at myself in the prior answer. You know, it's, it's, if you're not, particularly if you're not clinging to it, the Buddhist practice is essentially a bow, not clinging to anything, right? That there is no, there's nothing to attach to, it's not even turtles all the way down, it's emptiness all the way down. And so it's it's a much the sort of Buddhist insight is that it's actually a much saner and healthier place to live from, if you can be honest with yourself about that impermanence in the world. And it makes you open your eyes to the wonder of what you have at this moment, which is your health and your body and your love, and the people that you care about. And even though they're all gonna go and you're gonna go, you that brings enormous joy in if you can recognize it, but a lot of the time we live, you know, denying that back, right, trying to pretend that that's just not the nature of things. And, you know, we build up cryptic bank accounts and gripping houses, and, and gripping gravestones, and all these things, and none of it, none of it helps sight, the reality that at the end of the day, everything, you know, everything is impermanent. So I do think it's easier, maybe, for a Buddhist, or someone in that sort of practice tradition, to not hold quite so tightly to material things. I mean, I would hope it is, that doesn't mean being an aesthetic, it doesn't mean you don't like the things, it doesn't mean that having those things isn't nice. But it but it might change your relationship to that seeing or that wealth or that financial capital a little bit.

Nik Tarascio 

I just started tapping into I think it's Pema children, I believe is her name, how you live is how you die. And so I'm really interested in this idea of impermanence. And it's something that I've heard from a lot of people in my business community and I know I deal with this a lot as I've kind of been on this spiritual path and meditating and interested in in different aspects of Buddhism. But the question always comes up is like, if I really come to terms with this idea of impermanence, or even, you know, embrace the idea that I'm dying, well, I stopped caring about money, right? Like, I don't want to stop caring about money. I don't want to get out of the game. And I hear a lot of that of like, I almost refuse to feel connected to the world around me and find that spiritual peace because I'm like, Well, what the hell am I gonna do anything for at that point? Nothing matters. I'll just be I'll just be sit in the sand enlightened on the streets in New York. Yeah,

Scott Peppet 

no, I, I get that. Look, I there's a phrase that or a word that I think is helpful there, which is, I don't think that Buddhist practice or any kind of spiritual practice or meditative practice, whatever, whatever tradition it comes from, is about what I would what I would call calm ism. Right? It's not about you know, we use the word Zen in our culture as like, Oh, you're so zen, you know, you're so and what we mean is like, You're so calm, so chill. You don't get mad, you know, you're like super. And, and, and Zen practice. And most meditation practices, do change your relationship to your emotions. And so people can be quite calm. But Zen masters are not particularly flat. Right? They're not, they're not, they're not disengaged with the world. You're not zoning out, you know, and just sort of sitting in this Nirvana, Ik, blissful state. In fact, most masters that you see or read about are massively engaged with the suffering of the world, right and with the joy of the world. My Zen teacher was the weirdest dancer I've ever met. Right? I mean, he could get in there and go for it. And and the truth is same is true. Probably the best non Buddhists, of course, is His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, and Anyone who's ever seen him or seen a video of him, you know, he's a very joyful, engaged human being. He's not just sitting on a lotus flower, you know, wishing the world well. And so I do think that there's an initial question of like, well, gee, if I calm myself down so much, does that make me while I flatten out? Right? Well, it all just become like super groovy no matter what? And the answer is, look, kind of, but not really, right. You might be more engaged in the world, maybe differently, maybe slightly different goals or priorities. But I don't think the why I believe that that the goal is not detachment in that see, again, the words get real weird in the West for us, because Buddhists will use words like detachment, or dis attached, you know, detaching from things. And we hear that and we think, Oh, that means just like, zoning out, right. Like, and, and we're not trying to train a bunch of people to go to a Zendo or go to a monastery or whatever, and just zone out. If that's what we're trying to do. It's, that's not a particularly interesting project. Right. What we're trying to do is wake up. And what does that mean? And I think I think that that process engages not disengages, ultimately. But there is a, an A, there's a little worry about Will, am I just gonna I hear the worry, am I just gonna disengage? And I think the answer is no, if you're just disengaging, something's going wrong. We also hear like, you know, meditative practices about selflessness, or about changing your relationship to the ego. And that's true. I mean, at the at that most fundamental level, the the Buddha's, and many spiritual practices, core realization has to do with you not being quite what you think you are, right, that you're maybe a little less important in the story than, then maybe we are trained when we're growing up. But that doesn't mean you're going to end up just sitting staring at a wall in a in a meditation hall, you know, beat voit vacant, you're going to still wake up in the morning and need to do something. And so trying to do things that don't hurt people would be a good place to start. And trying to do things that actually help people would be a really good second place to start. But you're not going to end up doing nothing. Right? There is no not.

Nik Tarascio 

So taking this background. And again, I imagine a lot of the people that are listening are in a space where they've generated a lot of wealth and their business, or they are multi generational. And I'm assuming you've dealt with a lot of those people that are like, hey, what do I do for the future? Or I have kids that I don't want to ruin with all of this wealth, and it transfers? Do you bring some of the spiritual perspective to the way that you have those conversations? Are those two separate worlds in your mind?

Scott Peppet 

They're not two separate worlds, in my mind, you know, it's a delicate thing, because people come from all kinds of different spiritual practices and stress traditions or no spiritual tradition that they identify with. And so it's not something I don't typically lead with. But these conversations, I mean, as you said, at the beginning of the podcast, these conversations about money, take people to spirit very quickly, in a lot of conversation, right? Because Because money is tied to values, it's tied to purpose, it's tied to goals, it's tied to what they want for their children in their family. And so you're very quickly into the realm of the meaning of life, and the meaning of things, and not in the realm of taxes and balance sheets. There's taxes, a balance sheet, you know, to deal with and a lot of lawyers and all that stuff. But very quickly, what most people really want to think about is, is this going to hurt me? Is it going to hurt my children? Is it fair? You know, we live in a very unequal, you know, very difficult moment in in terms of money and wealth and the distribution of wealth. And people are wrestling with that. You know, all people are wrestling with that wealthy people are wrestling with that just like everybody else. So there's questions about what do I do to make an impact? How do I use what I've gotten through good fortune or whatever to be beneficial to others? Those are all spiritual questions. Those are all deep questions, right? about who we are as human beings and what we're doing here. So I don't see them as separate because everybody ends up in those same conversations, whichever route they get, you know, they follow to get

Nik Tarascio 

one of the things you told me about in the past, which I never thought about it this way. You had talked about the idea that when you give someone a big inheritance, it's a little bit like I forgot, I don't know if he said it was nuclear energy or dropping a bomb or something like that, but I'd love to hear more about what you've seen and how it actually does. impact people as people are thinking about, like I wanted to make all this money be I don't want to just give it to my kids willy nilly. I don't want to just blow up their life.

Scott Peppet 

Yeah, I mean, look, I again, with the caveat that this is, you know, a seriously first world problem, right? I mean, it's it's easy for people in our society in our culture right now to say, look, the poor rich people, you know, what are they so worried about and, and there's validity to that. And inheriting money is really complicated for people, and often very damaging and very difficult. i The the metaphor I probably used was a loaded gun, or some sort of, yeah, I mean, look at you, if you live bunch of money to your kid and your grandkid. And there's no preparation for that. And there's no training and there's no learning and there's no, there's no conversation of like the one we're having about, what is this? What is its purpose? What is it going to do in your life, you're essentially adding that kid a loaded gun, and saying figure it out as you go. And it's not so easy. And it's not so easy in a couple of ways. Sure, money makes material things much easier. So they're not going to starve, and they're not going to have to worry about where they live and how they're going to pay their rent. And that's a big deal. And it can be very demoralizing, it can be very degrading of someone's sense of self worth, to have money that they didn't earn. And that they're somebody else earned. Right? And that they're not, they might feel quite ashamed of, or at least ambivalent about, right? They're not sure. It's really okay. And like, I mean, I need way more 20 Somethings and 30 Somethings who have inherited some money, pick the number of zeros, I don't think it really matters. And who hide it, right? You hide it from their friends who hide it from their peers, who hide it from their significant others, you know, the people they're dating, because they're nervous about what it says about them, or what how it's going to be perceived, or the issues is going to raise?

And that's not good. And it's not, you know, you're not living an integrated life, if you're hiding all that stuff. And so again, you know, it's easy to say, well, poor, rich, good, you know, they'll figure it out. And, and, and, okay, but but the thing for me that's meaningful about this work is, look, the reality is, money does concentrate energy and material form. And it's not distributed equally, right. Okay. And we live in a society where we say, you're free to make money, as long as you do it legally, and you're free. If you've then amassed more money than you use in your lifetime, you're free to leave it to your heirs, as long as some of it goes to the government, right? And we incentivize people to give it away, but but you're allowed to leave some. So as long as we continue to live in that world. The the downside of inheritors, who are uncomfortable or, or have not integrated their financial capital into their lives in a real serious way where they feel ownership is they don't do anything with it, they end up sort of frozen and sort of stuck, right. And this is, I think, a spiritual challenge. Because they, you know, the social trope, or the social sort of story that we talked about is, oh, the trust funders, right, they're gonna go out and they're gonna buy Ferraris, and they're gonna, you know, blow it on champagne at clubs in New York, and there are some who are doing that. But the vast majority of the ones that I met, are not doing that what they're doing is they're frozen. They're stuck, not wanting to screw it up, not wanting to look weird to their peers, not wanting to really cut it, do anything with it, and they live this very kind of constrained life. And it's like we were we, as a society, we actually want you to own this so that you will go do good stuff with it, right? Like this is back to your engage disengage question, like, we want you to engage, we want you to feel like you own this enough that you can use it for climate change or use it for to alleviate suffering or poverty or, or whatever the thing is, you know, that that that you're going to engage with, we don't want you to leave it in some investment account for the next 100 years. And never feel like you can use it and redeploy it into the world. And so that's why it matters, right? I mean, I, I said to someone the other day, you know, we live in this really screwy moment in history, where we have climate change. On the one hand, the greatest threat probably that we've ever faced as a species or as a planet. And simultaneously, we have this massive wealth inequality. And I said, What if that's actually a blessing, where it happens to be that you could get, I don't know, some ungodly percentage of the world's financial capital organized by getting 1000 people in a room I mean, I don't know that it is. But I bet if you got the 1000 1000 people in a small arena, you could have 70% of the world's financial capital represented. Now, you can say, that's really disgusting. And that's terrible. But maybe since we have a collective action problem and climate change, the exact thing we need is to be able to organize all that financial capital really efficiently. So maybe that's a blessing, right? Maybe that's actually an opportunity. But not if all those people are frozen, and don't want to talk about any of this, right? Because they're never going to engage. What's

Nik Tarascio 

the antidote? For those people being frozen? How do you how do you approach that?

Scott Peppet 

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, the inheritors that I've worked with, and talked to and counseled and whatever, I think the first thing is to start taking account of how they actually feel about their money or their financial cap, if they are hiding it from their friends, if they are, you know, I talked to somebody yesterday, who said, her son takes, you know, the cheapest flight home from university, and usually makes like three stops, you know, because it's like, the cheapest way to get home. And, and she said, What do I do about that? I said, you don't do anything except talk about it. Right? Like, start with? Why does this feel better to you? And again, I don't really care. I mean, if you want to take the cheapest flight, or the, or the direct flight, what doesn't really make any difference in the world. But at MIT, something's going on with that person, right? Like, he's making a choice. It's not totally clear why that feels impactful. Like, I'm not sure you're doing anything better from a carbon point of view. That's really big a difference in the world, you're still buying a ticket, right? Like, but the real answer was, she said, you know, he doesn't want his friends to, to know that you can afford the direct flight. Well, that's, that's emotionally harmful to him, right? He's, he's hiding something. And so the first place is to just start taking stock. What are the ways that this is leading you? Because because he's being dishonest. I mean, that's just let's put a point on it. Right? I met another inheritor who used to, she lived in an apartment in New York, and that her parents owned and she worked in a startup, which is I used to go out with my friends, because my office was right near where I lived. But at the end of the day, when we go out for drinks, or whatever, they'd all get on the subway to go back to Brooklyn, and I would go into the subway station, and then leave by a different exit, so that they didn't know that I lived in Midtown, I don't really care, except that you're being dishonest, right? That and you have as one of your core values, being honest and transparent with people, and you can't be if you're hiding this part of who you are. So, so one part is just beginning at the How are you behaving? How are you acting?

And is it actually aligned with who you said you want to be? And, and? And often the answer no, right? You might be spending too much. You might be hiding things. You might be whatever. But you might say, oh, yeah, I really, you know, I really care about making an impact on the world. But when I look at what you actually give away every year, it's not very much, right? And you're not very focused on it. And you kind of do it half assed and Okay, wait a minute, right? So let's try to figure out like, where are you in this journey of your relationship to financial capital? That's, that's kind of the beginning. I think. And, and often what we discover is, well, it's really complicated, right? The person, non person, let's say, or older person, it's really complicated. They have assumptions, they have stories, they have rules that they've inherited from their parents or their grandparents. And they have to reexamine those things. And really think about, well, is that how I want to live? There's no absolutes, right? There's no formula for how to do this. But one way not to do it is to be living counter to who you believe you are, or want to be in the world. That's, we know that's not going to be not going to feel good. That tends to get people somewhat unstuck. The other one, that's real simple for me is what brings you joy. You know, is this stuff bringing you joy? Like, are, you know, going to these meetings and assessment, that advisors and whatever, is it making you happy? Is it making the people around you happy? Is it making the world better? Are you are you happy with this? And very, very often even the people that we would describe in this sort of social story of like, the rich inheritor who's spending too much, they're often very unhappy. And they know they're unhappy. They just don't seem to want to identify with that right. They got to kind of So they have to slow down, and they have to really take stock of, of where they are. And that tends to then lead to conversations that get them less stuck. Right. Okay, so what does feel genuinely joyful to you? Well, when I help people are when I would ever want to when I run my business or when I, you know, okay, let's do more of that, right, let's figure out a path where you're doing more of that and less of this other set of behaviors that is not really serving you, or anybody else.

Nik Tarascio 

Have you seen where people? I mean, let me back up. I think a lot of people I've talked to especially I grew up middle class, I think the dream was like lotto ticket when sit by the beach, life's gonna be amazing, right. And I'm imagining that you've met people that have that opportunity that had a pretty ordinary life, and then suddenly had the ability to go and hang out on a beach until the end. And I'm wondering if it was as dark of a journey, as we've heard about for a lot of people have like, wow, this is, I feel like my life is meaningless. Very

Scott Peppet 

few people do it. I mean, that I've met, you know, the beach gets really boring really fast. Most people I mean, I don't know I, I like the beach as much as anybody else. But I can't stay there longer than you know, an afternoon before I start to get, you know, and I can sit in a meditation hall for like days and not do anything but a beach like starts to get a little bored. I think that a lot of this depends on what you think human how you how you really think humans are wired, right. And, for me, humans seem to be mostly wired around. Love creativity. And, you know, generativity, doing things in the world, for themselves and for their families and for others around them, that lead to community lead to connection lead to, you know, all of those positive emotions, we're social creatures. So yes, there's there are people who win the lotto, and go build a big beach house, and sit on the beach. But pretty often, most of those people that I've ever met, are back in their church or their community center, or whatever, pretty quickly, like looking for something meaningful to do. Because the beach stops being meaningful pretty quickly. I mean, I know a lot more folks with a lot of financial capital, who are working 60 hours, 70 hours a week, again, I'm not crying, you know, I'm not crying for them, they have a really nice life. And there's lots of people working 60 or 70 or 80 hours a week who don't have those material benefits. But it's not as if money 10 always just leads people to go cool. I'm done. You know, just bring me another pina colada. Most of the time, they're trying to figure out, what do I do next? You know, whether it's charity, or starting a business, or helping their friend or whatever, what do I do next? That makes me feel like I'm leading a meaningful life?

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah. Which really kind of teased me into my kind of the culminating question is, you know, what is that connection between fulfillment and wealth. And that's really what this podcast is all about is like, a lot of people climb that. Climb that first mountain of like, I just want to get all the external markers of success, I want to have the money in the bank, I want to know that I could just, you know, get that Oprah money, right? And then getting there and going like, well, you know, again, I'm in New York. So I'm surrounded by people that do have the upper money, and they often have seemed very unhappy, very lost, very confused, kind of that stuck energy that you were talking about on some level. And I just wonder, what, what, what thoughts you have on the connection between fulfillment and wealth? And I think you've already kind of illuminated on some of that, but I'd love to hear it. Kind of deeper. Yeah, I

Scott Peppet 

don't think there's any connection at all, like they've been studying this right had the connection between happiness and money. And there's all kinds of studies trying to figure out like, you know, there was a great study for a while that people would say it could set it up. I can't remember who it was, but like more than $70,000, and it didn't matter, every incremental dollar was irrelevant. And I don't have any opinion on where all those studies are gonna come out. It clearly it makes a difference. If you can feed yourself and have a dry, safe place to live. Those things, those, those minimal conditions, obviously matter a great deal. But beyond that, do I think there's much correlation? No, I think I know very, very financially wealthy people who are incredibly happy, optimistic, loving, connected, empathetic, warm, growing, learning human beings. And I know and I know, very poor people who are the same, and I know the opposite on both sides, right? And so to all of us, so You know, I, I think that we've got different vectors here, right, which is human development as a human being? How are we doing? Right? Are we growing? Are we learning? How are you doing on that on that front? And then there's the material question of, of how you're doing web access to financial capital you have. And one of the things that I'm amazed at is when I meet really financially wealthy people who aren't really doing anything on this whole other vector, right, like their Freddie's. Not I mean, you could be holy moly, you have all this money, you could be investing in an incredible coach and incredible therapist and a nutritionist and like, you get the, or just giving to others or you could be, and the answer is like, yeah, and I haven't really done i That's like, not kind of my thing.

And so what what I've come up with is like, Okay, well, there's people who that sort of thing. And there's people who just kind of, that's another thing. And at least my take has always been, happiness seems to correlate much more with growth than anything else. Subjective transit, happiness, human beings, like to develop, they like to grow. They like to create, they like to expand, they like to learn, and they like to love, I mean, the big thing they like to do is love and create, right. And if they're doing those things are there and they're wired to do those things, then they tend to be more optimistic, happy people. And if they're sort of stuck, not doing those things, for whatever reason, whatever self story they have, no matter how much money they have, their subjective experience of happiness is generally lower. Now, I have no idea whether money inhibits or promotes that. But my own experience, that kind of growth, but my own experiences, it doesn't seem to correlate at all. Some people have lots of money and use it really well in those kinds of ways. And some people have lots of money and really don't.

Nik Tarascio 

So for someone sitting on incredible amounts of wealth, whether earned or inherited, if they're not feeling that sense of fulfillment. Do you have any advice for them? Do you have any considerations for them?

Scott Peppet 

Yeah, I mean, number one, don't I mean, I'm going to be nitpicky here. Don't use the word wealth to mean money, right? Wealth means wealth, wellbeing, as a holistic concept, your physical health, your mental health, your emotional health, your spiritual health, your social capital, your social relationships, your ability to love all of those things. That's wealth. And financial capital is a part of that material, belongings, material wealth as part of that. But wealth being wealthy is, is a much broader concept, your your previous podcast, guest, you know, you were talking about some of those things. So that's a mental shift in the use of a word, which is a little nitpicky. And again, and my friend Jay uses is is is partly the genesis of that, that movement, but it really does matter for people because they say, Well, I have everything. And I say, Wait, do you have anything like, your divorce and you're single, and you don't have a partner right now. And you're really sort of unhappy about that. And you've been having all kinds of physical health problems, and you can't seem to get your hands around them. And you could also be very connected to a community that really loves you and that you really low. So I'm not sure you have everything, you have a bank account. Like, it's nice, it's a nice bank account, but like, you can't actually go buy most of those other things. So where are you going to get them? Right? And, and we know that and like, this isn't rocket science, we know that. But we, as a society as a culture, we privilege financial capital over all these other forms of capital so intensely, that we kind of hurts surprised, like, Gee, I have a big bank account, but I'm miserable.

Well, and why is it surprising? Like, yeah, you have a big background, but you don't have good social relations. Because you're kind of an asshole, right? Like you or whatever. Like, you're kind of not a nice person. And you've never really come to terms with not being such a nice person. And nobody really likes you. So morning really surprised the rest of us that you're having a hard time. I think culturally, we've got to get over that surprise, right. We just have to. So so what would my advice be for people with a lot of financial capital? Man, my biggest advice is always seek out real feedback. The biggest deficit I see with financially wealthy people, is people aren't honest with them. Everybody's working for them, right? Every their friends, everybody's dependent on them, their kids, or their spouse, sometimes everyone's dependent on them in some kind of financial way. And so it's really hard for them to get real feedback about who they are, how they are, how they're behaving. how people perceive them. I mean, I I joke when I you know, I'm married into a business family and I always say, the day after I got married, I was so smarter, funnier and better look. Because some people laughed at my jokes more, you know, and thought I boy, everything I said seemed to be real smart. And that's, that's a crazy way to live. And so my advice is always how can you find people who will be honest with you really give you real feedback? And those are the that's the biggest deficit for a lot of these financially well off people.

Nik Tarascio 

There is there. You know, I've thought a lot about this idea of I do we choose the life we're born into on some level, and I know that there are some practices that believe that I wondered if it is, you know, coming into a life where you inherit a lot of money, is there an ethical responsibility and a spiritual responsibility that comes along with that of do something with this? I don't feel guilt or don't feel unworthy necessarily. No, it's not it's, I can't get I can't shoot anybody into that. But is there kind of a like, Hey, this is your spiritual path, like learn how to be with us learn how to hold this energy and do something meaningful with it?

Scott Peppet 

I mean, in my view, yes. But I would broaden it, I look, I think all of us in this life with an inheritance. We're, we're in human form, we're blessed with consciousness, we have opposable thumbs, you know, we have a whole bunch of things that that are pretty remarkable. And maybe we have financial capital, maybe we don't. But to a certain extent, I think we all have, at some point, I don't know if it's an obligation, but an opportunity to use what we have to be helpful, to be compassionate, to do things in the world that are helpful to others, you know, that one of the great Buddhist scholars said this is 1000 years ago, but said, wisdom is the womb of compassion. Right? You when you start to realize the, the, the essence of life, your only natural reaction is compassion for others who are maybe less fortunate, or who are suffering or who have less, less insight into how to live or whatever. And so I think that's true of everybody. And, and it happens to be that if you randomly get selected to be in to be born into a lifetime with a bunch of material wealth, well, then should you use that to to be compassionate? No, bother, you have probably, right. Seems pretty hard to make the argument that, you know, just because you randomly got selected in the genetic pool for that lifetime, that you just get to like, pretend that didn't happen. Right? Like it happened. You have this unbelievable opportunity. So do something with it. And I don't have a lot of judgment around. Wealth, I don't have a lot of judgment on any of it. I don't have a lot of judgment around what you do. So like, create a business employ people. Hallelujah, right, like, unbelievable way to help the world. Give it to charity, plant trees. And if you don't do anything with it, I mean, hard to do nothing. There is no, there is no neutral gear here. But if you don't play it very intentionally, I don't have a lot of judgment on around that either. Because I have a lot of empathy for the causes of that. stuckness. I mean, that's just part of I know, I know, lots of people in that place. And I don't envy that. But do I think it's all things considered better to engage than to disengage, either to be in first year or second year than in neutral? Yeah.

Nik Tarascio 

closing question for you is, what is your dream beyond? Now? Great

Scott Peppet 

question. I mean, my real honest answer is, I hope, that as a species, and as individuals, we can continue to wake up to the ways that we're harming ourselves and others and the planet, and ecosystem we live in. I hope that we can raise consciousness and be less confused. Most harm that I see in the world is caused by confusion. It's caused by people hurting each other, out of confusion out of small interests and ego that if they even could step back for half a second, they would say, yeah, that's not really what I want to be doing. And so I'm an eternal, naive optimist. But my dream beyond is that, that we can grow enough, fast enough, and wake up enough to flourish and survive. I'll say that this conversation, I mean, you and I started a conversation, whatever it was a year ago or something. And the connection between spirit and money is hard for people to talk about. And there aren't a lot of conversations about it. There are some, but not a ton. But I think it's really, really an important intersection. Because, like I said, there's just so much potential that can be unleashed, for human betterment for the betterment of the not just humans, but the planet and etc. If, if we can connect these two things, you know, put an end to certain extent, I don't think we have to connect them, I think they're inherently connected. We just have to recognize that, that that connection and and find ways to live in the world and use what we have, however much we add. For for positive ends,

Nik Tarascio 

and it's beautiful. And I I would I'm gonna consider your answer a blessing for me to have this conversation more because I've more and more thought about it. I'm like, this must be really hard. Especially we shamed the people that don't have it, we shamed the people that do have it. We shamed the people that made it, we shame the people that inherited, it's like, I can imagine everyone's just stuck. Everyone's upset. And as you said, there's there's a real sense of confusion. So I very much appreciate your answer. It's a beautiful thing that you shared. And I hope to be having more and more of these conversations, thanks to the perspective you shared with me. And hopefully, people that are listening to the show also are like, you know, I've never really thought about those things. I've never really consciously thought of how I apply my spiritual beliefs, to the way that I relate to money. The way I create it the way I the way I share it, the way I create value in the world with it. So what a beautiful conversation again, I appreciate the support in it. And if anyone is curious to learn more about what Scott's up to, you could check out Scott epa.com. We'll put it in the show notes. And yeah, Scott, you're just you're such an interesting, dude. I really love the different worlds that you play in. And yeah, thanks. Thanks for sharing your wisdom today. Thanks

Scott Peppet 

so much. Listen, it's been great having the conversation. I'm happy to talk anytime and yeah, I look forward to reactions. This is complicated stuff, and super interesting to talk about. Now, I

Nik Tarascio 

appreciate it. Thanks so much. Thank you for listening to the dream beyond. I hope that you receive whatever message or inspiration you are meant to get from today's episode. I had a great time recording it for you. If you love the show, please take 30 seconds to subscribe rate and review it. That really helps get the word out. And if you want to connect with me, you can find me at

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Episode 23: Adlerian Psychology - Embracing Inferiority and the Drive for Greatness with Hallie Williams

Hallie Williams 

Encouraged is derived from courage. So we encourage people to get better. And that person has to have the courage to deal with our inadequacies, the mere human experience, yes that we wake up one day and find ourselves on this planet Earth. And we go through life trying to figure out ways to deal with the adversities that come up. Those things take courage.

Nik Tarascio 

So many of us have had a desire to have a big impact on the world in some way. I think so many of us feel like that's part of the meaning of why we're here. That's our purpose, right? It's to be an advocate for something to go out and find something, you know, like activism to support a cause that you believe in, whatever that thing is building your own business, raising a family. What if I told you that underneath some of the people that have been the most successful at shaping the world, was a single person's principles that you've probably never even heard of? That's what's so shocking to me. So we're going to talk today about one of the lesser known psychologists who is actually on par with Jung, and Freud, and how you can learn some of these principles and take it to that again, you can make the world more the way you want it to be. I hope you really enjoy.

Welcome to the dream beyond. I'm your host, Nik Tarascio. I'm a CEO musician, an overall seeker of Truth, inspiration, and simply put, how to live the most fulfilling life possible. Growing up surrounded by extremely wealthy and successful people gave me unique and unfiltered perspectives of those who have seemingly made it on the dream beyond we're letting you in on what it really takes to achieve your dreams. What happens when it turns out your destination isn't the promised land you are expecting? How to process the lessons from your past while mapping of course to true fulfillment. Let's get started.

Hey, everybody, I'm here with someone who's a clinical psychotherapist and a graduate of Adler Graduate School in Minnetonka, Minnesota. His main clinical focus and passion surrounds trauma and mental illness with at risk youth and their families as well as the trauma surrounding us veterans, rightfully so he's also a veteran of the US Army. Please welcome Holly Williams with us today. Thank you for being here. Hello.

Hallie Williams 

Thank you for having me. All right.

Nik Tarascio 

So I wanted to let everyone know how I even got to Adler and again, we're gonna be talking about a guy named. It's Alfred Adler. Is that right? That's right. Excellent. So I was out in a bookstore, actually, I guess was a coffee shop in Santa Monica. And I saw this book cover called the courage to be disliked, which immediately spoke to me. I was like, I wish I had more courage to be disliked. I think I'd probably I think I'd probably do more interesting things. And at the end of the day, I said, What is this all about? And I got into it realize it was really a book, a Japanese book about Alfred Adler, who was Was he Austrian or German?

Hallie Williams 

I don't even know what his backers were originally was Austrian, but he was eventually moved to the US.

Nik Tarascio 

Okay, so here's this, here's this crazy circuitous path of a random guy in a Santa Monica coffee shop that sees a book that's written by the Japanese, about an Austrian therapist, who made his way to the US. So it was just kind of this very security thing. And I was like, Who is this Alfred Adler guy? And very quickly started to understand that Adler was really on the level of, of Jung and then Freud, but for whatever reason, I'm curious why you think it is that he's not as big of a name as the other two. Why is that?

Hallie Williams 

Well, Adler and Freud had a falling out a theoretical form, and now and a number of Freud's followers at the time, ended up subscribing to Atlas theories, when they separated. Freud was from more of a upper class society, if you will. He was more connected from a pretty powerful family, and would Adela did his seat, he left that environment he moved out to living among other people when he was developing his theory. And I think the main reason that we don't know more about Adler was initially as I said, he did not come from a powerful background. So his spirits weren't spread as all and nowadays, we have a number of people that utilize Adler's theories and his teaching without giving him adequate credit. So, you know, the Adler could be called the father of positive discipline, or and the father of positive psychology, but only in positive discipline. As he mentioned positive psychology you almost never hear about it. So it really takes a little bit of digging to find out that most of the theories that we have today are derived from Adlerian teachings but Allah does not get much credit. That's the that's really the main reason it will take a little digging kinda like you did, to find out a little bit more about it.

Nik Tarascio 

Interesting. I'm curious to other other, other other expressions are concepts that are in common knowledge, but are not attributed to Adler.

Hallie Williams 

Well, you know, the inferiority feeling of inferiority complex is the term created by Adler. I don't think many of you know very many people know that. Adler was also a big proponent of social interests. You know that people don't really talk about much birth order, I'm sure you probably somebody with that, and many people will be with birth order. But these are concepts that will kind of derived and cultivated by Adler. So that's, you know, what I would say those are the ones that's probably most common that people would be familiar with everybody kind of knows of inferiority complex, and that inferiority feelings. So I would say those are those are probably the most common without being an academic, that people would be kind of familiar with.

Nik Tarascio 

The interesting. So it sounds like he's a little bit like the Nikola Tesla of psychology. And that way, we're bigger players with bigger players from a successful family took a lot of credit spread his teachings, or or just, I mean, in the case of Tesla was pretty much buried by Edison as far as his work goes. So

Hallie Williams 

that sounds very good way of putting it very good way of swinging.

Nik Tarascio 

Interesting. So how did you find your way to Adler?

Hallie Williams 

That's a that's an interesting question. I was working with. I had developed the program. And I was working with youth that had, I guess we would call them lack of another term juvenile delinquents that had gotten in trouble with the law. And I was writing curriculums and redirect some of these at risk youth. So the court system had agreed that the youth that completed this program that I had, would would not be incarcerated, because they'd already been picked up by the jail by the police, who were in jail and had been released to go to this program, they successfully completed it, they would not be re incarceration. So as I dug into my research, developing the curriculum and the things that I wanted to teach them about, and I was looking for positive things, and went back a long ways, I mean, ever since the abolitionists, and as I read about them, and and things that I could present to the kids that I thought was interesting, it kind of led me to someone named Karen Horney.

And, you know, different people. And they kept referring to this guy, Alfred ad here. And that was like, Who is this Do me because I knew nothing about it. So as I started reading, about Alfred Adler, his theories spoke to me, it gave words to something that I already believed that I just didn't have the credibility to say and didn't really know how to say. And often that happens when a theory is put out in the world, certain people get attracted to it based on your personality. So as I dug into it, and I found out about you those feelings of inferiority, how some people will have this strong feeling of inferiority and they do a variety of things to make them feel better, or to move into a different direction. And I found like a lot of this stuff applied to the kids, the more I dug into it, the more I kind of fell in love with the theory of ads, you know, probably had I'd not been working with at risk youth. I probably would never stumble across you unless I wanted to a coffee shop like you would picked up. Yeah.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, it's super. It is always shocking for me to understand how much someone could have impact on the world and be a ghost, right? In many ways, just be a ghost that's kind of running under the radar. And so for for people that are hopefully curious about this any here's this guy who's this master of psychology that has really contributed so much to the field of psychology, but also just some of again, our common common knowledge. Like you said, this inferiority complex that I think people know quite a bit about. What what is the, like, how would you describe it? I think people have an understanding of Freud you know, understanding of Freud as he's the next guy, right? Everything Is Everything has some sexual undertone. Jung is, uh, you know, again, when I think of young I think of archetypes, talks a lot about the concept of archetype and the hero's journey and a lot of things like that. How would you describe Adler in summation?

Hallie Williams 

Um, you know, often when I talk to people about this, I tried to divide Adela into two will Adlerian theory, which is also called individual psychology. I tried to divide it into kind of two categories. It's not really that way. But well me to describe it and get people to understand it are divided into two categories. One is the pathology approach, dealing with mental illness, a variety of illnesses. But individual psychology is also about a way of life. And this is why You know, many of the social work teachings come from Allah had mentioned earlier positive psychology because basically it takes a person's life, and breaks it down until so tells us how we should live.

And I'm sure you probably pick that up from from a book that you read, it's a way of living. It's how we should interact with our fellow man. It's how we should move toward happiness. So different than young are different than Freud, which focus primarily on just a pathological approach. individual psychology helps you figure out a way of living, gives you a life, purpose, or helps you identify your purpose. And personally, I think it leads us to on the road to happiness, because ultimately, and I may be getting a little bit ahead of myself, but ultimately, up social interest, this thing that will kind of born with working with others to Wingfoot others is the way to go to, you know, to travel down the road to what happens. So if I had to call him when we're let's just call him a positive approach to living one's life, I think is how I will conceptualize everything about it.

Nik Tarascio 

It sounds it sounds like we're touching on the I mean, I know Jung had some spiritual context as well. Some people said he was pretty deep into the into spirituality. It sounds like Adler also touches on philosophy, and spirituality slash almost like religious ideology on some level.

Hallie Williams 

On some level, or being when he developed his theory, he did study you a variety of things he studied, the Bible was one that he used to kind of develop his approach I wouldn't call individual psychology, you know, by no means a religion or spiritual experience. But he helps us understand our position in this world. You know, we're all humans. So it's a way that humans should interact with other humans. It's a way we should interact with our world. And he clarifies all of it for us so we could see it. I guess some people would refer to it as a spiritual experience, I wouldn't. I think of it more as just a rule and a guide of life. So in some respects, the Bible is considered to be a rule and guide a thief. But I've looked at individual psychology as a guide to our life.

Nik Tarascio 

So be curious if you wanted to sell someone on this, like, when I see a movie I love or I hear music, I love I immediately, like, I gotta find the hook so I could get other people interested. What are the hooks? What are the things? Or what are some of like, the core concepts that you would share with someone, if you see someone you love? And you're like, they're not happy? They're not understanding how to relate to the world around them. Hey, here's some ideas you might be interested in, in hopes that maybe they go wow, this other guy does have some stuff to say, and I want to go deeper into his work. And where would you start people in that,

Hallie Williams 

I probably would start with, you know, some examples. some real life examples, for instance. Or ask somebody to relate to think about maybe Christmas, at times of Christmas, people give gifts, people received gifts. But imagine for a minute that you have someone that you care about deeply. Let's just see one of your children. And you purchase a gift for them. thoughtful gift you didn't ask, you don't ask them for a list or anything, just knowing your child, you purchased the gift for them. And when they opened the gift, it's exactly what they wanted. The joy you seal in that person's face, the exuberance, the enthusiasm, I mean, when they just gets hyper, it puts a smile on your face, you didn't receive anything, you gave something.

And by giving vaccine, you get a great deal of joy back, it made you happy. You gave a gift to make somebody else happy. But instead it made you happy is something about giving and doing for others. That complete us because that's who we are. We are a race of people that surface one another. So I would use that example to explain social interests. What are the fundamental parts of individual psychology, it's about doing for others, because that's where happiness comes for a weekend, take and take and take what sometimes you can keep taking in and you still find yourself unfulfilled. You're not happy. You've you've got all the money in the world. You've got all the local friends in the world, but you still find out that you're not happy.

The road to happiness is us doing for others. So I will use that example to spark the interest and depending on the interest and I would go into some of the other some of the other feelings describe inferiority feelings. I mean, because this feeling about inferiority Avila will tell us that we're all moving. From a feeling of inferiority to a feeling of superiority, or more than if I could elaborate a little bit on that, I would say it's kind of like the, what a baby is born, the child sees us standing. So eventually that child in the career starts pulling on the edges of the crib, until they can stand up. And they feel fulfilled about that, because now they have that feeling of inferiority that they bought with feeling less than the other humans around them, they're standing in talking to them, once they stand up, you get that feeling of fulfill you moving from a feeling of inferiority to a feeling of superiority, if you will, or not above anyone else, but better than you were.

And this, this drive goes throughout life, everyone has this feeling some of us more than others, the key is cultivating this feeling within you so that as you move to a place of more there are more superiority, you're doing it in a functional way, not at the expense of others,

Nik Tarascio 

is that is that where the complex comes in is that when someone says it's an inferiority complex, you're saying I want to feel more than but at the expense of others.

Hallie Williams 

Exactly, exactly. Because in these things are held together. So we believe that you were born with a social feel it Okay, a little bit different social interest, that social feeling is the innate thing that we were born with. The social feeling must be cultivated by people like you and I, when we have children, we have the social feeling of zap, but we cultivate that to the point that they understand how they should interact. You have you have a small child, you teach them to share their toys, when someone comes by, you don't want the kid to be taken all the toys, so they've got friends, but they can't play with anything. These are all mine. Yes, they are yours. But you start teaching them to share in the joy that comes from another person using a toy, both people are happy enough, you know, so we start working on cultivating that. And if it's not cultivated, overs, cultivated in a dysfunctional way, you're right, that leads to this inferiority complex.

Nik Tarascio 

What's the other side of social interest. So in the same way, like it makes sense to me that we all start less than, and we have a long way to go to become enough, or feeling, I guess the other side would be the superiority, right on some level using that word. But on that path, that makes sense. I've inferiority, I want to get better. And if I do it at the expense of others, that becomes the shadow version of that the complex of that, what's the complex of social interest?

Hallie Williams 

Well, but the best where it becomes dysfunctional. Let me let me give you an example. And this is anecdotally I haven't done research studies on this. But you know, throughout America, we have a rash of mass shootings, you have, we can't seem to get our arms around, when you will connect it in a family. But you feel like you, you, you feel that human connection of humanity with others. We don't do adverse actions to other people. But we feel disconnected, it's easier to do something terrible to someone that you are not connected to. So when we talk about the adverse part of that social feeling, is that disconnection and isolation that leads to some type of dysfunction. And that dysfunction could come up many ways. Sometimes it's a fight. It's an argument. You know, I could see it in a husband and wife situation, but on the screen is we see it when people want to do these mass acts of terror. They don't feel that connection to others. They don't feel it's the adverse of the social interest in the commission that we bear that makes it

Nik Tarascio 

it does. And I think the place I get hung up is when you talk about social feeling. I'm wondering, is it actually like a somatic experience in the body that Adler's talking about, or is it something else that he's saying when he refers to it as a feeling?

Hallie Williams 

Well, again, we have two things. We have that social feeling, which is like the innate thing that we're born with, that we have our birth right. We have that social feeling because we are all part of the same family of humanity. SOCIAL, the social interests is the part that we as parents must cultivate in our children. We cultivate that to make sure they realize that they're a part of something, we start that if you have children at home, generally speaking, you would want them to understand that they're part of let's call it the team, you're part of a family, you have things to do as a father, the wife has things to do as a mother, that children should have things to do to be part of that team, that could be making your bed, taking out the trash, you know, a variety of things to feel like they're actually a part of that feeling, a part of that team. So the best the beginning of cultivating the thing that's already in there, that's that innate thing that we have that we recognize we're part of humanity, you're cultivating that into social interests, we're now on their own, that people understand that they stumbled the children were misled, that they should be connected to one another.

Nik Tarascio 

So I guess the place I go to, and again, I may sound thick on this one, because if anything, I've been very disconnected from the head to the body most of my life. So a lot of it when I hear the concept of feeling and you talk about there is almost if someone truly felt connected to people, the world, whatever that is, generally they're not going to do harmful acts, right? Because it's, I mean, this goes back to like non duality, sorry, non dualism, non duality of like, inside outside all the same thing. There's no, me and other, it's just all we're all wanting the same. Right? It's, it's so so there's something to that. I'm curious, though, is when? How would you describe it? If I said to you, I want to feel that social feeling? Is it actually a sense in the body? Is it actually an emotion? Is it what it when I feel connected to someone, there is sometimes a sensation that I feel in my body, but is there actually a physical component of the concept of social feeling in your mind?

Hallie Williams 

It is a social feeling is a descriptive word that we use to describe an intangible, like, like love you who are we can't touch it, we can't see it. When we observe it in in your actions, would you care for someone do certain things, you may do something for a wife or a girlfriend, and they may conclude from that you love her. Or she will say he loves me, based on the things that you are doing? So social feeling or social interests is an intangible thing. It's not. It's just like those emotions of, of love. And you can you know, it's based on how a person acts. So it's not like you get a particular feeling that reverberates throughout your entire body. It's,

Nik Tarascio 

I'm relieved to hear that. I'm relieved to hear that because I'm like, Man, I think I didn't want to say it until you answer that. Because I'm like, I think I was born without the social feeling. I can feel it in my body.

Hallie Williams 

Let me let me interject something. And I'll tell you how I would kind of evaluate it. To people, I would ask them, Are you happy? Are you happy with your life? You know, when people tell me that they are, then you know, hey, everything's Gucci? That's fine, we got no problem. If you're not happy, then we probably should talk about it. And the first thing I would look for is, is how are you interacting with others? What are you doing for others, because this puts you on the road to happiness. Generally speaking, when a person doesn't have that, that feeling of social uterus, I would say that they're generally lacking in the things that they're doing for other people. Because we have become self centered in the whole world is about doing things for me. Doing things for me, is not going to take you to happen. It will get you through life.

But you're always going to feel a vacancy there. Because that's not how we are created nowhere in society. Do we find man isolated, we've always been a part of a community, that community of humanity, and that community of humanity is what fulfills us doing for others. I mean, it's a word that we could use this pretty universal, that whether people hate to because of your ethnicity, your complexion, your financial status, or whatever. It's a word that we use the same as the UNIVAC, new five people and that skill. When we say help other humans come, whether they like you or not, it's like a something in us. It fulfills us to go help people. We have organizations we call charity that people just give to, you know, I have I have a humorous expression. I have given the people some time and I say that, you know, poverty is God's extra key that he gets Have wealthy people so they can get to heaven. So you could do something for other people. And it's just a humorous, you know, no anecdote that I use. But the fact of the matter is, it's something to bear is something to the fact that we get such great pleasure for doing for others. So when when, when people are unhappy, and I have met a number of them in my life, generally speaking, I start evaluating them, and I look what they do their lives, and most certainly my fan, that they are self centered, without really even realizing that they are. Sometimes we strive so hard to achieve and accomplish things. But those things are all about us. You know, a successful business is when a CEO can find a way to put everybody in positions, so that they can feel successful. So you do something for them to make them feel successful. You know, when these people see that you're doing, you're giving to them, that makes you happy.

But it also makes them happy, who isn't happy. Versus if you have a mentor or a mentee. And you train this person that you teach this person, it all of a sudden, this person achieves a great level of success. Wouldn't that make you happy? It's all about what you'd have done for someone else. So instead of us looking inward, about about it being all about us, the success is going to come when we start doing for others. This is why we will find in an athletic endeavor, sports teams, and we'll see on paper, this particular team should win. But they don't win. Why? Because they're not. They're not together. They're not working together as a team. Sometimes I'd give up points. So I can make you successful. Instead of me taking that shot, I might pass it to you for you to take the shot. But if I'm selfish, I'm trying to get all the points out here. And maybe I will get those points, but the team will lose. It's about sharing, giving to others. That's that's where our success in life comes from. And I believe that's where all happiness.

Nik Tarascio 

So I guess I'd be curious to now build on that knowing that you work with at rescue, I imagine that social interest may come into the dialogue with them. And I, I would love to hear from you. How do you apply this right? So someone says great, I'm sold. This is super interesting. This Adler guy's clearly got some ideas that are really beautiful. And bring again, to me it is the application of timeless spiritual principles into practical knowledge for living. That's really the way I would describe it, given what you just said. So given that, I'm wondering, can you give some real examples of people you've worked with, or kids you've worked with the kind of results you got and how you steered them using some of these tools?

Hallie Williams 

Well, of course, athletically, you know, it's easy to do if coach, basketball football track. No, for a number of years, I don't right now, but I've did that for a number of years. And it's easier in those kinds of environments, because I can show them how, by Friday to make someone else successful, it makes us successful. By inspiring them to pass the ball not at of course, initially, you have to enforce that. But if one person doesn't make the shot, is one second left in the game, and you pass it to someone else and they make the shot, the whole team is happy. It doesn't matter whether you did it or not. So I would emphasize those facts when I'm dealing, you know, athletically, when I'm dealing with youth, and it has nothing to do with athletics. So if I'm not coaching them, it's a little bit different approach. And I don't normally isolate social interest just by itself. social interest is kind of tied. It's like the glue that holds together the tasks that she must accomplish in life. We haven't talked about that, at least at this point, but it's three particular tasks that you have to occur. So if you want I can elaborate on those right now.

Nik Tarascio 

Yes, yeah. I'd be curious to know what the three tasks are.

Hallie Williams 

So that these three tasks are according to individual psychology, everyone has a we will call it the work X. And that means that we all must provide must work so we all can provide to society. For instance, you sitting in a beautiful studio there with your guitars on the wall. But you probably are the expert musician, but I would venture to say you didn't make any other guitars. Someone else made those and they provided it to you. And then you could do your favorite source of work tasks. Well, we all contribute to one another, and we all benefit from one another. Secondly, is the task of us being able to get along with other humans were part of humanity. I mean, we have to learn to get along. You know, you'd have animals, you have insects, you have a lot of the things of the world. But in the animal kingdom, nobody is accepted humans to be a part of that lions don't want us joining the crew, were the weakest thing on this planet. We can't, I mean, we can't survive outside, by ourselves, we can't just fight our food, we were just weak we survive, that we thrive, because we work together.

So it's imperative that we learn to work together with other humans, because our very existence depends on it. And lastly, is speaks more to procreation. Many animals go extinct. That's not something we're going to ever have to worry about with humanity for a variety of reasons. But because of it, and to pre procreate, we have an opposite sixth, we must learn how to get along with the opposite sex, or the effect of procreation. Now, granted, everybody does not have children, and it's a choice that they've made. But anybody could make that choice, we have to procreate, because this is how humanity continues. So those three tasks, ama believes everybody must reverse those tasks, those tasks are held together by social interests. So I give the same kind of explanation to use that I deal with, but I specifically focus on getting along with one another. And, and getting along with one another is kind of held together by doing for one another, because it's a task that we must accomplish. So how do you get that task done, you do that by working together. So you're not would have different tasks in a classroom or in the streets, if we happen to be out there, where two or more people are working together on the same task. And as they accomplish these things, they get the feeling of working together, you can get more done, when when you're working together, you know, all ships should rise when the tide comes in.

So I emphasize that part, to do a variety of little tasks that we we we utilize in classes. And that's primarily how I would do that. But I usually don't separate it without kind of tying everything together. You know, realizing also, that, you know, if I could a little bit I just feel like at this point, I'd like to talk a little bit about a sorority, if you if you don't, man and how that ties together. And I'll tell you this, this kind of brings up an example about my not have a brother and my brother, as youth. He was not a very good athlete. I was I was a much better athlete, but I didn't have to work it and I was just, you know, I was just good at some things. So we were on a football team. And my brother didn't make the tea. So my mother made me quit. Because, you know, my mom was on about academics, and it's just a game. If kids can't make the tea. Nobody is going to play. You know, even little coaches came by like we need Halid No, no, if kids can't make it, nobody, please. So my brother had Disentis this out, he felt terrible about that. He felt, you know, he was less than I could do everything better than him long story short.

Years later, my brother ends up making a tea, getting a scholarship to go to Syracuse University. Because of by his senior year, he had become very dominant. So he gets to Syracuse. And at Syracuse, initially same kind of thing. In the beginning, he was not that much of an athlete. He felt inferior, which was driving him by his senior year. He was one of the top linemen at Syracuse. Bow comes the draft. But he didn't get drafted. He did get an offer to walk it on at with the Eagles. Again, same situation when he gets there. Everything he owns is in the trunk of his car. He has nothing. It didn't draft it. At the beginning of camp. He's just getting beat down until this almost this feeling of inferiority just develops in him so much until it breaks down to he's about crying. But the feeling of inferiority was so strong in him. That it that it inspired him it pushed him so much more. Long story short, he ends up making the tea playing in the NFL for 14 years, stopping for 11 and he was always driven, but he was always driven by being less vain, every one of feeling less than even when he was successful. He felt desperate, because it's not about reality. It's about what a person feels.

So realizing those experiences of what could happen with that, with that feeling of inferiority, I've used those examples. When I, when I deal with us to channel it in a more positive, in a more positive manner, we go through life with this feeling of inferiority, we go to, if you're taking a Spanish class, for instance, you don't know Spanish initially. But so you feel inferior. But the functional way, the more pro social way of dealing with that is let that inspire you to work harder, let that inspire you to focus versus being dysfunctional, it inspires you to find a way to cheat, to do it in a dysfunctional way. So it's all about, it's not about eliminating these feelings, because the human experience is about these feelings of if you're already every day you go to work, Nick, is something different that happens that you might not have planned for, you have to figure that out. So it's two choices, you can approach it in a pro social functional way. Or you can find something ethical to do to accomplish that, that becomes the development of a pathology, it's about taking this feeling, first understanding it, and taking it and focusing it. And if enough, a person is a leader, you recognize this, and you look at the people that work for you, you identified those feelings, and you help them focus it in a functional way.

You have to have the courage to be imperfect, it's not going to always work just right, which you have to be strong, you'd have to have the courage today, if it don't work, right, this time, it will the next time and if not, then this, it will make you so do keep that in a pro social way of functional where we don't go outside of those barriers, because when we do, of course, that's when it starts leading to a variety of dysfunctions, you know, we we may steal, or we may lie, we may reach, you know, all these other things. So these are the things that I tried to do with the, with the kids with a youth that I that I worked with, and I worked with adults also. But particularly with the youth because it's easier. They're at a stage when they're developing these things already. So it's easier for me to focus them than it is with an adult, although the same thing happens with an adult.

Nik Tarascio 

I mean, I can very much hear as you're talking I mean, there's so much curiosity that comes up around the idea that one, inferiority, I've only known inferiority complex. I've never known just inferiority, right. And that's important in my mind of, it's almost like we shame the feeling of inferiority, Oh, I feel that that's bad. And so if I can be with my own feeling of inferiority, then I can't, I won't want to put myself in a situation that will challenge me to become my better self, my better version. And I immediately go to like this idea of these, like, everyone gets a trophy in school, right? It's this idea. We don't want anyone to feel uncomfortable on anyone to feel less than. And I'm curious in that perspective is, you know, with the, with the teachings of others say we're actually taking away the opportunity for people to feel the adversity of inferiority so that they can have a motivation to move forward.

Hallie Williams 

If he would, I think ever will speak a bit more about courage. Encourage is the raft from courage. So you we encourage people to get better. And that person has to have the courage to deal with our inadequacies. The mere human experience is that we wake up one day we find ourselves on this planet Earth. And we go through life trying to figure out ways to deal with the adversities that come up. Those things take courage. So when you talk about the trophies and everybody getting a trophy to school, I don't subscribe to that, when I do subscribe to is the people that did not when you learn to deal with those adversities. You have the courage to deal with your adversities. That feeling that you have you will hear sometimes great athletes say hold on to that feeling. Let that feeling drives you to become better. The great, the super great athletes, all will see they might have lost the game, but I sit there and I watch the celebration on the court. I wanted to hold on to that field.

And I use that feeling throughout the offseason. It drove me to do something to make myself better to make the team better. It's not about me, just getting all the praise. It's about making everybody better. So when if we try to shape the world with a child to think that everything goes your way, best giving them the role, worldview, because now you end up with an adult that has expectations But everything goes away, we know that that's, that's just not reality. So what ends up happening, we could be cultivating this development of a complex within this person, and they start solving their problems through dysfunctional ways. Because you believe the whole everything, you believe you supposed to have all the money, then maybe you will rob somebody, well, you will steal the you will do some other things, because you think it always should be that way. Our job as these young people not developing their view of the world, is to help them with that development. You know, we encourage them, you know, we want them to develop the courage of a you and I have to have courage to deal with many things to the stuff that we haven't done before. Even if it's learning how to play golf, I mean, the first day you go out and play golf, you're not going to be very good at it. What you have to have the courage to go out there, even though people may be looking at you saying, Look at Nick, he can't even hit the ball.

And maybe people let you have to have the courage to deal with it. This is This is life. This is the way we have to go through life. But we must remember, stay within boundaries, the acceptable boundaries of society. Because all problems have really social problems, their problems, because society deemed them to be problems. So up, no, I don't subscribe to the everybody gets a trophy philosophy. And for those that decide to do that, that's fine. But from my vantage point, I think we want to do is use all of those as life's teaching, moments and explanation, because that's going to be other things that come up also. So you have to learn how to deal with adversity, and how to accept certain things. And if you want to be better, then you move on to become better.

Nik Tarascio 

Again, very, it's very interesting. I'm curious how How did Adler set the stage for positive psychology and you said something was positive motivation, which I didn't know exactly what that was.

Hallie Williams 

Well, that's that's exemplified in the word that I just use, Adela talks a lot about courage. But what we should do is encourage people because sometimes, when these adversities come up, it can increase that feeling of inferiority so much, that this person can't deal with it. Because what we're trying to do is keep everybody to handle their life's task in a functional way, in an acceptable way. So it's about encouragement. You know, you you continue to encourage people, that's part of reason, actually a therapeutic approach. with clients, you want to encourage them to continue to do something and not give up because because you're gonna have life's adversities. So this is why Adela is looked upon as Oh, Adlerian psychology is looked upon as positive psychology because of the encouragement that we believe that you give to people to keep them motivated to keep them headed in the right direction. In a family situation, you could have a son, who was running track races, maybe he ran across country, and he came in fourth place, and he says he wants to quit. I think most fathers and mothers would say, No, you shouldn't quit, you can be better, it's about being the best that you can be. As long as you are the best that you can be, it doesn't have to be number one, or number two, or number three, is about being the best version of yourself. And again, this is all about life, going through life, trying to be the best version of yourself.

Nik Tarascio 

I really liked that as I've never thought about the concept of encouragement, as lending someone your courage until they have enough of their own. That's a really, really beautiful idea. I've never thought about the etymology at all. So it's kind of a, it's a total reframe, for me of like, that's really beautiful. It's us having the courage to face the challenges of our life, our life's work or life's task. And in those moments that we don't have it, having people around us that hopefully have that social feeling and social addressed, to lend it to us and I start to see how the framework of Adlerian like starts to come together. I can I can start to understand it's very interesting to me. And I hope it's interesting to people that are listening. I'd be curious to know what at this point as we're starting to land the plane here. If someone's got their, you know, their their ears tweaked. Bellegarde, I'm curious, I want to know more about this. How would you recommend someone go down the road of of learning more about Adler or finding ways to bring some of the some understanding these principles to their own life?

Hallie Williams 

Of as you mentioned earlier? Adler wasn't a Releford writer. He did write many books, but most people wrote about him. And you and I got together because of a book that you read, the courage to be disliked. And the book that you read which was written, you almost wouldn't know it had anything to do with Adlerian psychology or individual psychology, the way it was written, it was like a story that it was, you know, went through a whole life experience. But it talked about many different Adlerian theories there, it didn't go deep into whether it was just enough to spark your interests. That's a, that's a good book, that I would recommend courage to be disliked. It's also an expression that I use with people, I do a lot of recruiting and organization, I'm also the president elect of the North American Society of Adlerian. Psychology. So I do a great deal of time I'm traveling. And I teach a lot internationally, in addition to states, and I always see to be one who ask what, you know, you sit down, and you talk to Ed Leary.

And where you can get a deeper understanding is pretty difficult, difficult to conceptualize the entire philosophy in an hour's time, but by talking with somebody, there's so many other parts of Adlerian, psychology, lifestyle. And it's interesting, if I don't know if you have any siblings, but if you do, three of them, I would wager you, that your siblings that you knew when you were a little kid, as you look at them now, he would say, You know what, they have not changed much since they were a kid, yes, they do another thing, but it's still, they're still the same. Why? Because at an early age, we develop this worldview, we develop what we call a lifestyle, the way we see the world, it's like I am a certain way, people are a certain way the world is you start developing these things. And you maintain that, because it's comfortable for you not to change. And this is how sometimes people develop biases that they have, that they don't even realize, because many things are developed early. And they just don't change unless someone changes you. Also, this leads down the rule of pathologies, because many times anxiety, for instance, is maybe a safeguard a way that you have learned to protect yourself against certain situations.

So if a person, every time a person is going to do something new, they may get this HS feeling, because something they learned early in life, going into new situations could be bad for them. So they have developed this thing that becomes part of their being this is not a conscious thing. And they start having anxiety when they are doing new things. So when you know. So what a mad lyric does is I never tell anybody what to do. I sit with you a week, and I help you uncover those things. And what's uncovered, you will find a solution yourself. Because these things that we're doing, we don't even realize it until you talk to somebody, the best way to understand Adlerian psychology would be to talk to an Adlerian. But you could also go to some of the other Adlerian sites like www dot, Alfred adler.org is one way this leads you to the North American Society of Adlerian psychology, well, you could just type in basic North American Society of Adlerian psychology, and open up a web page and in a variety of resources there.

I could also leave you at the end of the presentation with a my email, you know, people could certainly reach out to me, and I certainly don't mind answering questions or for as long as it takes. And occasionally I do presentations on individual psychology beginning Adler, a variety of things which was, which is kind of like a teaspoon worth of Adler to keep sparkling beverages. Excellent. Well,

Nik Tarascio 

what we'll do is I'll put all that stuff in the show notes, so people have all the links. We'll put your email and everything. We appreciate you offering that out to our listeners. And I'm curious what the last question What is your dream beyond?

Hallie Williams 

That's a very good question, Nick. I was in Ireland. A couple of months ago, as I said, I teach in a variety of notaries and I did a glittery there. And the plenary was about a saving the world. And prior to be doing the plenary, many people came to me and said, Oh, so you got to save the world as you said, well, let's let's I can't wait to hear your presentation. But that's really deep in my heart. I think that if we have problems with society, we are society. You know, as we look at children, our method of solving problems with children Is to incarcerate them. We've been doing that for 100 pages of use, that's not solving the problem. incarceration. It's not so we can't keep blaming the kids, we are in charge of society. So things are going wrong is up to us. We can change society, we can make it better. We may be familiar with the butterfly effect. You know, you know, something that happens? Yeah, I guess a good example was Canada had some fires a while back.

And it was sort of smoke everywhere. I live in St. Paul, Minnesota, quite a ways away from Canada. Yet, some days we will get warnings not to go outside if you didn't need to sporting events will count. Why? Because something that happened in Canada was affecting me in St. Paul, Minnesota. We can make a difference. We can make a difference. One guy, Martin Luther King, use Adlerian psychology. You know, he spoke about this in a great speech, he gave the drum major effect. And he talked about his teachings that he got from Adler taught him how we should get along with each other. And one person Martin Luther King created a giant civil rights movement that change the country. Another Adlerian, Dr. Kenneth Clark, and his famous doll experiments, he petitioned the Supreme Court with the teachings that he said he learned from Adler, and this created legislation, that during the Brown versus Board of Education that outlawed segregation in schools, not the Kenneth Clark says, if it's anything that I know, and I'm paraphrasing him, all of the things that I know that I was able to present to him, I learned from Alfred Adler. The teachings of Adler, when Miss with the skills of particular individuals, like yourself, can make a difference. So my dream is that we all do our part, to make this world a better place for everybody might sound you know, magnanimous. But that's that's Marjorie.

Nik Tarascio 

And it's beautiful. It's a beautiful share. And I though I wanted to wrap it up, I do want to touch on something that you told me once before, and I think it's worth noting is if we could just close it on the fact you know, you talked about MLK, and you talked about the other individual. I forgot his name was at Clark, you'll kill us Clark, Kenneth Clark, right. These are people that have had extraordinary impact on the world and our country specifically. And what I find interesting is that Adler you use the term about he was one of the early it was a term you use around how like he just cared for community cared for society cared for social causes. I think that that's also something I find so interesting is if you could just touch on that real quick when you mentioned it one time before I missed it.

Hallie Williams 

I'm not sure which term I use, but I will say that what Adela did as he developed his theory is he went and lived among circus Pete. He wouldn't do poor areas of town. Because Adela was an was the advocate, and an activist. And he developed this because he looked at the disparities and inequities in society, realizing that these inequities, the antithesis of humanity, were supposed to work together. Because this is how we survive. And we're not we're destroying society. We're making it bad for everybody so Adela lived among he. So I'm not sure exactly which term I used at the time. As you as you could probably tell, I can, I could go on and on for hours, just talking, but it was about you know, him just understanding how we work together as a team. So he and he developed this from living, not in the in the exclusive big mansion White House someplace, but it was living, almost. Listen, I certainly don't want to compare Adela to Jesus. But it's almost like he lived among oral everyday people to develop this is theories. And you know, I think that's what makes him able to relate to everyone. Because on a base level. I mean, we're all really the same.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, so you totally hit the point of the head. I don't remember the word but I think even just touching on the fact that really he was he was an advocate and he was into activism. There's something really important in that because again, there's a lot of concepts of I just recently heard about Freud that he had a lot of ideas, but when you really looked at Freud's record, I think someone told me recently, he had only worked with under 100 people that he actually were a very, very small set and it was mostly Austrian wives, or housewives.

Hallie Williams 

there tended to be people from the wealthier.

Nik Tarascio 

That's right. So like, we have this very, very, very tiny, tiny data set that was used to be applied to everyone where here you have a guy like Adler, who's going to every aspect of life and interact with people from all walks of life. And there's just something to that a guy saying, like, look, yeah, I'm not going to isolate this just to my little bubble in my little circle, I'm really going to look at the fundamental principles of society, humanity, who we are as people. And to that, I think, you know, just some of the biggest takeaways for me today is just the power of embracing that feeling of inferiority, right. Like that is such a such an unlock for me, because again, I always thought if I feel inferior, inferior, I thought it was a complex just because I feel inferior, I didn't know that it was only a complex if I knock people down because of it. That is huge unlock for me, that second piece of understanding the power of encouragement, right, using using that desire to be part of that, you know, the social contract, the social feeling.

There's something really beautiful again, about this idea of lending your courage to others so that they can cultivate their own so that they can become who they're supposed to be. It gets to your point of like, most parents, I've talked about their kids, they said, I knew who my kid was going to be when they were three, it was just a matter of just watching them figure it out as they went. And I just think that's a beautiful idea. If we could all just lend that encouragement, lend that courage to other people. And the last thing I'd say is, if you are someone who wants to make a difference in the world, I would highly set about you know, Adlerian psychology, the alerian principles, becoming an alerian yourself. May be the tools may give you the tools, you need to really have an impact in the world. So you're not just sitting on the sidelines, you're on the court playing in a big way. And, man, I love this. I love this conversation. I love these topics. And I hope everyone is just as inspired by all the stuff you just heard. In the meantime, again, you could check out the websites, Alfred adler.org. We'll put a bunch of other stuff in the show notes, check out the book, the courage to be disliked. If you're interested in either working with Holly or just reaching out to him for questions. We'll put his email in the show notes. And again, Holly, thank you so much for sharing your heart and doing so much meaningful stuff in the world.

Hallie Williams 

Oh, the pleasure has been entirely mine, I appreciate you. And one last comment that I'll make is that after listening to your closing statements effect, you're almost ready to start teaching individual psychology to yourself. Alright.

Nik Tarascio 

Beautiful. I'm ready to graduate. Let's get it done. All right. Well, thank you again, Holly. I hope you all enjoyed the show. Thank you for listening to the dream beyond. I hope that you received whatever message or inspiration you were meant to get from today's episode. I had a great time recording it for you. If you love the show, please take 30 seconds to subscribe rate and review it. That really helps get the word out. And if you want to connect with me, you can find me at

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Episode 22: The Wisdom of your Nervous System: Insights from Polyvagal Theory with Courtney Rolfe

Courtney Rolfe 

The nervous system doesn't make judgment, it is just an automatic physiological response that makes sense. We don't have to know all the things that have led up to that moment to know why it makes sense. But we can trust the design of the system that is ancient that there is a reason it's responding the way it's responding. And that alone can free us up of all that. I mean, how many people have the experience of they're anxious, but they can't really figure out why, what if

Nik Tarascio 

I told you that there was a system inside of you that's automatic, you probably don't know anything about what's going on inside of that system, but it is ultimately controlling the quality of your life. It's the thing that makes you either feel happy, safe, anxious, depressed, it's the thing that allows you to connect with other people and to feel into them and to help them feel into you. Just imagine that that that systems are most of us know nothing about it. And so today, we're going to be talking with an expert on what's called polyvagal theory, which is really the theory of our nervous system, our autonomic nervous system. And I think it's one of the most important conversations we can be talking about when it comes to our own relationship to the world around us and why we do the things we do, why we feel the things that we feel, I hope you find this incredibly valuable. It's gonna be a little heavy, but stick around, it really does have a big payoff I hope you enjoy.

Welcome to the dream beyond. I'm your host, Nik Tarascio. I'm a CEO, musician and overall seeker of Truth, inspiration, and simply put, how to live the most fulfilling life possible. Growing up surrounded by extremely wealthy and successful people gave me unique and unfiltered perspectives of those who have seemingly made it through on the dream beyond, we're letting you in on what it really takes to achieve your dreams. What happens when it turns out your destination isn't the promised land, you are expecting how to process the lessons from your past while mapping of course to true fulfillment. Let's get started.

Hey, everybody, I'm here with the founder of Modern Mind and Heart, a psychotherapy speaking and training platform dedicated to bringing polyvagal theory to the world. She's a leading expert in the field, she helps clients heal trauma and trains clinicians worldwide about polyvagal theory and clinical work. She's also an expert in how the nervous system functions and how understanding this work can lead us to a life of self-compassion and ease, free from shame-based narratives. Please welcome Courtney Rolfe, everybody.

Courtney Rolfe 

Hi, it's so great to be here. I just I love hearing that all the words and all the helping people heal and how now I love what I do.

Nik Tarascio 

If you want and I'll just I'll just report that as you're grocery shopping.

Courtney Rolfe 

She helps people heal she knows about the nervous system. And do it get excited about it, though. I love it. I love the work. So

Nik Tarascio 

Very cool. I get really happy to talk about this. It's, you know, polyvagal theory is something that I don't know what that effect is called, would you hear about something you've never heard before. And then you hear it all the time. Like you hear a word or you see like, oh, a yellow Camaro. And then everyone has a yellow Camaro. I remember going like, What the hell is polyvagal theory? And then it's just like, it's everywhere. So I would love to hear about, like, when someone asks what you do, and you say, polyvagal theory, how do you describe that to the to the average person who's never heard of it before?

Courtney Rolfe 

I usually don't lead with that for sure. But what I do try to bring in is just the nervous system that we are all influenced, if not, I mean, we're really led by our nervous system experience. And I don't think we don't learn that I don't think we realize that, you know, we're taught that our brain is running the show. And you can see that from even our old philosophers that tell us that we can see that and how we're taught to deal with emotions, feelings, coping all of that, we can see that in the history of psychotherapy, treatments, you know, and what we see in the therapy room, we're really taught that our brains are in charge, and we can out think, whatever the situation is.

And then when we learn that actually, our nervous system is in charge and our nervous system is the biggest influencing factor on our total experience. It's a paradigm shift, it shifts things so learning what is my nervous system doing? How can I learn to track what my nervous system is doing? How can I find out more about you know, what puts me in a survival state or what makes me feel regulated and connected? It really changes how we can show up in the world and how we can relate to people and how we can find fulfilment how we can you know, navigate stressors, everything, everything. So I start with the nervous system, we all have one. It all works pretty much the same way with our own custom, you know, wiring that we that we get through our life experiences, but we can understand the human experience through that lens and it kind of changes our our experience of what we understand about ourselves, life, others, all of it I leave with a nervous system. And then maybe I'll throw in polyvagal theory, but it's a little technical and you know, yeah.

Nik Tarascio 

I'd love to even go into that again, like, look, I did biology class and all that stuff. And I've even gone to the bodies exhibit, if you've ever seen that, where they like melt away parts of people's bodies. I think it was like, it was it was a Chinese exhibit, I believe, actually. And I got to see what the nervous system looks like, if it was just like, it's the craziest thing. Just seeing all the network of everything. And then like, the eyes and like, wow, like, is that all we? Are we just a nervous system with a bunch of other stuff built around it to support that system? Yeah, yeah. And I'm wondering, like, again, like taking the very practical approach to this as what really is the nervous system, from your perspective, like, again, beyond just like signals moving around to the body? There

Courtney Rolfe 

are so many directions to take that like, what is the lived experience of having a nervous system versus what are the actual nerves, part of what we one of the catching things you probably come across when you you know, hear about polyvagal theory is the vagus nerve, right? The vagus nerve is is pretty hot stuff right now. And so that's part of this autonomic nervous system that we're talking about, we have a central nervous system and an autonomic nervous system, which has its own sort of like set of branches. And that's what we're talking about with polyvagal theory. And we have kind of two branches of it. One is that vagus nerve.

So when we hear about vagus nerve hacks, or heal your vagus nerve, and things like that, they're sort of sort of kind of talking about polyvagal theory. And then we have the, that's the parasympathetic side. And then we have sympathetic nervous system, which we actually most of us know a lot about already without realizing it, because that is what we learned about our stress response. So that's when we learn about, you know, why is it bad to be stressed all the time?

Well, it's hard on the heart, right? We have cortisol, adrenaline, it's, you know, raises our blood pressure, all of those things so that we're more familiar with our fight or flight system. The other side of things, there's some different, you know, takes on what's going on with the other branch of the nervous system. And that's where polyvagal theory kind of steps aside from some of the things we thought we knew about the nervous system and what we actually are speculating about its function and its purpose and everything now that we know a little bit more.

Nik Tarascio 

So it sounds like then you don't really getting to the idea that you're focused a lot on the system, when you say autonomic. And again, just to like really dumb that down, is it fair to say like almost subconscious, automatic,

Courtney Rolfe 

Automatic is a great replacement word, it's not exactly what it means. But we can absolutely substitute the word automatic, because that is absolutely what's happening. So our nervous system is constantly taking in cues of either danger or safety, essentially, from our environment, from within our own bodies, especially from other people, and other people's nervous systems. And it's taking that information in not on a conscious level, not on any kind of conscious awareness level, but automatically as a body process, taking into detecting this information and then responding in a physiological way, to whatever cues it's getting.

So if it's a cue of safety, that you know, somebody really warm is smiling at us, or we're with somebody really comfortable, or we see a beautiful rainbow and beautiful sky, our system will respond to that safety. And that might mean my heart rate slows down, or my muscles relax, or I can, you know, sit back in my chair, or I'm not as hyper vigilant looking around, I can, you know, rest into a moment. Or if I get some kind of cue of danger, I'm not danger, like I'm going to get eaten by a bear or something. But just danger. Like somebody's posture is a little odd or a noise, that I don't understand its origin comes into the environment or something, my my system is also going to detect that and automatically create physiological change so that my system is ready all the time to give me the internal resources I need to survive if I need it, right.

So we're constantly in this fluctuating kind of pretty complex, but always working automatic response system, where our, you know, the vagus nerve taps into all of our major organs, it's regulating our heart rate our lungs, it goes through our diaphragm, like it's doing a lot of work to create homeostasis in our body. So when we're safe, our body is in homeostasis. Everything is working as like our ultimate plan, design, whatever you want to, you know, refer to it as and as soon as we get some kind of cue of state of danger or something. Everything head to toe kind of shifts, maybe a little bit, maybe a lot. It just kind of depends, but it's all automatic. Has nothing to do with our thinking brain process. happens well, before the brain gets any, any information, these things are happening.

And definitely well before we can make up a story about what's happened, which is basically what happens. The nervous system detects safety or danger, there's a physiological response that happens automatically. And then that information travels up. And we use our prefrontal cortex, you know, up here, the space behind our forehead was highly evolved part of our brain, we create a narrative, we try to make sense of that physiological response. So that's where a lot of our stories come from, and some are maybe kind of accurate, and a lot of them are not accurate at all.

Nik Tarascio 

So that's where like, I'm gonna go a couple different ways here. Number one, I remember once someone said to me, it was a person who like, I think his job was to support executives that get death threats from their employees. And so like he was training us, like, as an executive, you should be prepared for something go sideways and know how to survive if you are in especially a large company where some percentage of people might be nuts. Right, like, and I thought that was interesting.

And the thing he said to me that really moved me was, he's like, if you're a hair stands up on the back of your neck, you then get the hell out of wherever you are, is like, you don't know why. But that like is indicative of like, you are actually physically threatened by something. And I was like, well, that's really interesting. I never thought of like, is there this automatic system in my body? That is saying, like, I don't know how the hell in my rational mind, I feel that about someone, but I assessed someone within a split second. And I was like, I need to escape this environment. I don't know why. So is that some of what you're talking about?

Courtney Rolfe 

Absolutely. 100%? It is. Yeah. And because really, when we kind of look at what the nervous system is tracking, especially if we're talking about between two people, one of the really cool parts, that really is kind of specific to polyvagal theory is the realization that there's this linking up that happens of all these nerves that go into the face and into the mouth and into the muscles in the eye and the ears and the vocal box. And so basically, are the voice box, we are communicating through the subtlest, subtlest things, safety or danger to somebody else, welcome or warning, you know, so I can we can have a conversation.

And if I just like squint my eyes a tiny little bit, you might not consciously proceed on doing it. But you might have noticed your nervous system just for a little second, go, whoa, wait, Ha, what, what does happen, right, because it's automatic. And it doesn't matter. Even though I gave you the context of what I was doing, when I did it, your nervous system that's going to respond anyway, because it's not a horrible process. It isn't an automatic process. So we're picking up on so many things that are informing our system, and then it's going to express itself in something like a heart rate that's elevated or goosebumps, you know, we're maybe a felt sense, like anxiety, or some some kind of sensation in your chest or, you know, something like sweating muscle, whatever it is. And so that means that our system has detected some kind of danger, where we might get a little, you know, yes, and is maybe a little more in my world where I work with people who have trauma.

And not a lot of people are walking around on the planet without some kind of trauma. If we want to sort of like define that work, we we could ask 1000 different clinicians what they define trauma as and get more than 1000 definitions of it. But for the most part, when we experienced something where we needed a survival state response, at any point in our lives, our body remembers that. And we get set some implicit memory around just some of the random context around whatever happened. And our system is designed for survival. So when I come across that same like, clue or cue, or trigger or whatever we want to call it, or maybe something kind of similar, my system knows, to put my to put my whole body into a survival state and get ready. So I all of a sudden have a rapid heart rate. I don't know what it is.

Nine out of 10 times it could be because the person across from me castledawson shady vibes, and I might not consciously know what it is, but my system is telling me no way. And there's also room for my body may have kind of encoded some cue a danger that we could then call like unresolved trauma that's coming up and we don't understand why. You know, I had anxiety when I'm walking down a peaceful Street. There's a trigger in there somewhere, you know, or it might be within myself that or something but something has cued the nervous system to react and get me ready for some kind of survival. So it's a both and right doesn't mean there's something to Pay attention to absolutely doesn't mean it's necessarily in that room. Let's just go with Yes. And get out of there. And then we can like, you know, take it to therapy and utilize it later and figure out accurate. But yeah, that's, that's when we think about gut instinct or, you know, a gut a felt sense or a gut sense of something like, yeah, that's what we're talking about. Definitely.

Nik Tarascio 

So I know a lot of times people talk about like, hey, this person is really intuitive. And that one's more in their head, like, we're really talking about then understanding. You know, that connection, whether it's polyvagal theory, or just connection to the autonomic nervous system, can you be home to vacate that felt sense that intuition? Like, is that part of what polyvagal is doing? Is it giving us the tools to be able to cultivate that?

Courtney Rolfe 

Yes, I love that question. Yeah, absolutely. Because what we're now doing is we are giving ourselves a path to get out of the story in the narrative. If we just stay there, we're missing a whole huge part of our experience. When we start to pay attention to our nervous system. Now we're starting to pay attention to our bodies, and our body experience. And for anyone who has trauma that isn't always a very safe place to be or anyone who's used to being Go, go, go go, slowing down and tuning in is really hard. It's been really hard for me as well, it is not I am not a yogi, I do not, you know, meditate, a lot being embodied has been a journey. But I think it's one that a lot of people find in their own journey, that the more we can become aware of our body experience and start to understand what's happening. We have a much more I guess, comprehensive understanding of what our own experiences we get stay in our head, that's actually you know, kind of easy. It's a go to for a lot of people. But I think becoming embodied I do I kind of think it's our life's work. I think it's part of our journey, to create that connection and communication. Yeah.

Nik Tarascio 

So I'm going to ask a question that I mean, hopefully you're okay to go down this road, wounded healer archetype. Do you identify with that for yourself?

Courtney Rolfe 

My Yeah, wounded healer. I have a colleague who other wounded healer podcast, which is really funny. We just chatted recently wounded healer? I don't know I'm that's a tough one to answer. I'm not sure how to answer that. I was asked this question recently. And I think I really didn't know how to answer it then either.

Nik Tarascio 

We can excavate if you'd like.

Courtney Rolfe 

I think that I think clinicians, I think there are certain types of people who do have the propensity to sort of sit with others, hardships and trauma. And I think a lot of that does come from that person going through their own journey, and learning their own capacity. I know that a really critical piece of my ability to show up for my clients is my ability to be attuned to my body, I need to know where I am, I need to know where my nervous system is. And be very aware of it at the same time that I'm aware of the person sitting across from, and that is a skill to be developed. And not I'm not saying all clinicians are, you know, there yet, or that therapy is bad without that. But for me, I've learned in order to be an effective therapist, I need to have done my work to do that.

Nik Tarascio 

So can you give us kind of the check in what would you like right now, in this moment? Can you tell us like when you drop in, you're sitting across from me virtually, you're on a podcast? Like I'm actually wondering what a status report to yourself would even sound like?

Courtney Rolfe 

Well, that's a great question. I love it. Well, when you were saying that I found myself just noticing, oh, yeah, I have a body and it's supported by a chair. And so as you're talking, I'm just aware that like, I have a chair under me, and it's supporting me, and it's making contact with my legs, and it's making contact with the small mind back and supporting me. And so even just that is is going to be enough to allow me to remember and say, oh, yeah, I have a physical body, I am here in this space in myself, and hearing what you have to say and connecting at the same time. And I also was aware of there's a little bit of sort of taking deep breath to breathe into that space so that I can feel a bit of that kind of moving energy that's right here that is part of that. You know, we talked about the two branches of the nervous system. The one that gives us energy is really active right now for me, because I need to be on right I need to be I need to have energy in my system to speak in an engaging way. And so I can feel that in my body and for me, particularly right now in this moment. I can feel it. hear like in my upper chest as a bit of a movement. So it's that physical sensation that clues me into what is happening in my system.

Nik Tarascio 

So once you map like the physical sensations in the body, let's just assume you're like, Okay, I could feel my heart rate, I feel the warmth of my body, I feel the chair. Is there additional information from the like the physiological response, then can you draw that to like, I now understand my emotional experience, because I understand the physiological signaling,

Courtney Rolfe 

let me back up one step, which is one of the one of the structures that I think is really important to understand the nervous system and how it's working. And how we're going to interpret it in the first place, is that there are essentially, it's more complex than this. But at face, I mean, at one level, we can understand that we have three basic nervous system states. So we have one that is our newest, most highly evolved newest meaning 200 million years old. And that is our, our state that allows us to be socially engaged. So the technical word that you might come across at different points on pontic dock, or whatever articles and things it we refer to it as ventral vagal. So they go meaning like part of the vagus nerve like one section of the vagus nerve. And so that's when we are able to connect socially, my heart rate is like at the right pace that it needs to be everything is working and homeostasis in my body, and I am able to be open, I'm not hypervigilant, I can be creative, I can be hopeful, I can be relaxed, I can be energized and enthusiastic, but I'm connected to the world and I'm connected to myself, all those neuro circuits are, are firing to allow me to feel okay, doesn't have to be joyous to her on cloud nine, but I feel okay.

What happens is, when we get enough of a threat, that our, you know, social engagement or something doesn't resolve it, my system is going to shift into a completely different physiological state. And the first one, it's the same for everybody, we always, always, always are going to follow this predictable path of, as soon as I'm not regulated in ventral vagal, my system is going to take me into a mobilized state. So it might last a second, or it might last quite a long time, everybody's system is different. And all the needs are different. But that's what we think of with, like fight or flight, for example, that a lot, we might call it anxiety, we might call it panic attack, we might call it anger outbursts. But that response that brings us the elevated heart rate and the cortisol and the adrenaline and the glucose boost in the muscle tension in the sweating, and the tunnel vision and the rumination like all that energized kind of response, it's beautiful. When we need it, if I need to get away from a tiger that's about to eat me for lunch or something,

I would like to have all my muscle energy, I want to have my line of sight focused only on the threat and my escape route. I don't want to be distracted by anything else, I don't want to think about anything else, I need all the energy in my body I possibly can have. So I can get out of there. Or I can struggle to get out of the situation and get myself to sleep. The mobilization is amazing. Where it doesn't feel amazing is when I'm at work, and I open up my emails, and there's 100 out of them and my heart starts to pound or when I have to have a meeting with somebody who, you know, the stakes are high, and my system starts giving me adrenaline and then all of a sudden, I can't sleep very well or speak very well, because my brain seems to have gotten scrambled, right. That's also when we go into a survival state. And we lose our homeostasis. And we're operating them out of a sense of urgency and mobilization. And like, uh, you know, gotta do do do, you know, got act. And that does take a toll on the body. And I think a lot of people and a lot of leaders live in that space, because we certainly can get stuff done when we're that mobilize. But it's, you know, it's important to find our way back to let our systems settle. Yeah.

And then if that doesn't resolve the threat that mobilized response, there's a third response that we will the second I guess, survival response, a third state that we can go to, and this is the one that's really important and unique that polyvagal theory brings, we can go into shutdown. So we can go into collapse. So if you think about again, if I'm running away from a tiger, and hopefully I can run and now in my brain, I'm an antelope, right. That's the example I use. If I'm an antelope and I'm running away from Tiger, if that tiger catches me, I'm only going to struggle for a second maybe because it's not going to do me any good that mobilizers bounce. If the Tigers already got me, it's only going to mess me up even worse. So what am I going to do, I'm going to, I'm going to collapse, I'm going to just stop, I'm going to do a 180. And instead of energy output, I'm going to conserve energy. Because if I'm about to get attacked by this lion or tiger, whatever it is, I don't want to bleed out. You know, like, I also want to become as uninteresting to this predator as much as possible.

Like, there's a lot of reasons but my heart rates gonna slow, my blood pressure is gonna drop, I'm gonna get a bit of a spacey disconnection from my psychological state or my brain, I'm going to get natural opioids into my body so that I can not feel pain as much there's like a numbness that can happen. And so, again, if I'm getting eaten by a tiger, yes, please, I would like that response. Because that sounds great, right? Maybe I'll live to see another day, or I won't feel pain or whatever. When we go into that state in our day to day, it doesn't feel so great. It's not so helpful. It's helpful in a survival sense. But it doesn't help us, you know, get stucked on it doesn't help. We're very far from being able to connect with others. We may have no energy, we might call it depression. zoning out tuning out, you know, going through the motions, maybe even dissociation because that's a big part of that survival state.

And the thing is, we go in and out of these states all day long, every day, all of us have already traveled up and down this, I'm going to call it a ladder. That's from Deb Dana's work, she kind of translated the very intense theory into some language we can understand, which is where I've learned everything I know pretty much just from typing, or just, we travel up and down this ladder through these autonomic nervous system state all the time, every day, so it's not an it's not a win. Or it's not an if I go into survival state, it's when. And so learning to pay attention to how does my body Express sympathetic nervous system mobilize response? How does my body express that shutdown? That's what I'm tracking? That's what I'm learning to pay attention to.

So that I know am I okay? Am I in connection right now? Or if I just like disappeared? Or am I so anxious? I'm like just steamrolling whatever the conversation is, you know, so that's sort of the, to tie it back to like, what do we do with that information? We want to learn where is my nervous system? And if it's in a place that's not that connected, regulated place, then I get to get curious about what, why and what do I need? Because then we can go into sort of, you know, how do I regulate my state, which is different for everybody? What was that long answer?

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, no, and I'm not done trying to chase you to share more personal stuff on your side. We're not We're not we'll come back to that in a second. But I am curious to kind of draw back as you were talking about those systems, I almost wonder like when I perform on stage, especially when I was younger, and I was first starting to perform. Again, as soon as I thought I was gonna go up on stage adrenaline like crazy. And I would almost like my could sing higher. I could go bigger energy I can't do. Like, I can't do that stuff in my normal course of my day. But I'd almost become this like battery on stage. But then I've witnessed people that I almost wonder if they overshot.

And they just froze like, you see stage fright where someone gets up there and they just freeze. And it's like, they're all waiting. Yeah. Why aren't you performing? So it almost sounds like on some level, that that second system that you were talking about when there's a perceived threat, which is for me, I didn't want to fail. I didn't want to be embarrassed or ashamed on stage. But it made me super energetic and almost became my stage persona. Yeah, I could see where if someone was like I'm overshooting into the full shutdown mode conserve energy, like I'm getting eaten by the tiger, even though it's really just an audience. I'm in front of, like, it's an interesting lens to look through. Because I'm like, Well, I never, I never understood that. That's actually what was happening in my system, because I could never fake it. That's the other thing. I could never get that energy.

Like if I tried to record music. I'm like, I can't get that. I don't know how to get it now hearing. It's an automatic system, potentially. That was in service of me. Yeah, I am very curious to know if someone is starting to monitor go wow, I feel that first. Tee are kicking in. Like what are some of the things like besides the like, I'm feel myself in the chair, and I'm starting to feel my body and I know I'm safe because I'm here. What else can someone do to keep that system from running away in an environment that we rationally know we're actually not threatened?

Courtney Rolfe 

Yeah, I think the biggest thing is, the more we can learn that this is an automatic response. It's not a moral judgment. There's no the nervous system doesn't make judgment. It is just an automatic, physiological, logical response. That makes sense. We don't have to know all the things that have led up to that moment to know why it makes sense, but we can trust the design of the system that is ancient. That there is a reason it's responding the way it's yours. Finding and that alone can free us up of all the I mean, how many people have the experience of they're anxious, but they can't really figure out why and what are the messages then we give ourselves what's wrong with me, I don't understand just backed up or man up or about, you know, or like, I'm broke. I mean, so many things that is the source of so many of our really awful, you know, mean stories about ourselves are critical, I should say, really critical stories about ourselves that we have, and so that alone to come to terms with and create some kind of peaceful relationship with our nervous system, a trusting relationship, that if my nervous system is going bonkers, right now, there's a reason I might not have access to all the information.

But I can trust that there's a reason and now I just need to figure out what I need to downshift that system. So this is where it gets, this is not the answer that you want to hear. I know it's not because it's not the answer anyone wants to hear. And it's the opposite of what a lot of people will give you. There's absolutely no one way they're like, a deep breath might be so resourcing for me, and it is for a lot of people, because it kind of like triggers the calming hormones on board and stuff. But a deep breath is not the calming answer for everybody. So we never want to make an assumption about what is going to be calming for everyone, because it just doesn't work that way. So the important thing is to experiment and learn and start making a list of what are the things that I know, do call me down.

Maybe it's certain music, you know, maybe there's a playlist you can put together that you know, shifts your nervous system into like a calmer state when you need it to be calmer. Or maybe it have some breathing exercises. There are a few different types of breathing like long exhales or making some a humming sound or a moose that like stuff like that people do. Could be for some people, maybe it's the opposite. Maybe they need to, like do a really hard workout just to have a place for the energy to go. That's not always available to everybody, maybe no, maybe it means like temperature drops? I don't know, it's it's a wide range, and every person has that chance to kind of start experimenting with Will. Does it make me feel better when I do this? You know, or does it actually make it feel worse. And that's where we start is creating your own list. And same with the shutdown?

You know, if I'm just collapse, can't get out of bed, don't want to do anything, have no appetite? You know, whatever it is, what are the small things that are going to help me get back into my body and get some physicality into my system, you know, some motion or movement or something? Maybe it's just like, Oh, I know that I just need to like, move to a different room, or go outside and take a walk. I've had the capacity for that, or whatever it is. So it's really, everyone's list is gonna look different.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, I wonder in that case, I imagine a lot of people innately have learned, especially high performers, people running businesses, there's only so much you could cry on the floor before you're like, I need to figure out a way to interrupt this pattern when I'm really scared or everything's going sideways or have a big presentation or, you know, whatever ridiculous thing is happening. What is the benefit of learning polyvagal theory or something beyond just the like, I know, to like tap on my wrist or something like that? Or do this breathwork? Like what's what's the value of polyvagal theory applied? For someone who might be curious and saying like, yeah, like, what can I take from this to deepen my self awareness and my self mastery?

Courtney Rolfe 

Well, you said a really important word in your question, which is like interrupting the pattern. And that's what we're talking about. We're talking about nervous system patterns, responses. And so bringing awareness to it is exactly what allows us to interrupt the pattern. And so sometimes it doesn't matter what you do, it's just more important that you do something different. If every time this thing hits, and then I, I know that I yell and outbursts, and then I collapse on the floor, interrupt that, and what if we just, you know, have enough space in there to do something else? And start breaking up the patterns that are that are there? The benefit of of learning? All of this is? I don't know, you know, I guess just asking yourself is, is what I'm doing now working, gives it enough figured out because if you've figured out your own way, and you aren't caught in patterns that cause problems, or make things harder or that you can't figure out how to unstuck yourself from you know, if you fit if you figured that out and you found your way then maybe you don't need to you know, you found your own way.

Many people in in many different cultures for ages have used the wisdom of the assistants and and call it different things, right. So this is not read polyvagal theory is not new, it's just the expression, you know, we've been able to bring modern science and bring our modern medical terms and our western lens and everything to kind of put it together with a lot more specific information about what's happening in the physiology. But the actual information about the human experience, and what we're talking about isn't new at all. So people have figured out what works for them. And that's great. What I find is, people come to me when they're stuck. And when they continue to have some kind of either interruption to the really important things in their life or relationships in their life. Or they continue to experience an uncomfortable, I was about to use the word symptom, I don't like the word symptom, it pathologized as a normal human experience, they continue to experience some kind of uncomfortable sensation or something, and they can't figure it out.

That's when they come to me. And that's when they benefit from first learning the physiology. And then you create enough space you get out of the judgment, you get out of the shame. And you can actually just from more of a even assigns a big lens, figure out what works for you. And then you keep practicing and keep practicing. And you keep building that list until you can navigate and for me, I think it means it's not about just being in ventral vagal. It's not about just being regulated all the time, we really want those survival states, we have to have them, they're really important. And they're useful. It's when you get stuck in them, that life feels really hard. And we don't know our way back to get to a regulated place. So I think of it more of the benefit is we want to have flexibility. In moving up and down this ladder. We want flexibility in moving in and out of these survival states.

So when I go into sympathetic, I don't have to be scared of it sympathetic of that mobilized state, I don't have to be scared of it. I know there's a way back, my body knows how to get back to regulation. So I can kind of use what I know. One really helpful thing is just to like we kind of talked about before, really name, what are all the things that tells me I'm safe right now. You know, so looking around the room, I'm in the space that I love. And there are things that feel like a resource to me, and there's a beautiful window with a tree and you know, those things like bring safety into the system. And sort of that alone could be enough to shift somebody out. Maybe not maybe we need a lot of other things. But learning it is empowering each person to I guess, kind of take control. I don't love the that.

You know those words? Exactly. But it's the best I got right now like kind of to gain more direct influence over one's nervous system state so that you're not so stuck, you know, so we have some flexibility. That's really what I think of it's the definition of resilience, is that flexibility, that ability to kind of go into survival statement, find our way back and do that more and more quickly over time, and have less than less intense survival state responses over time.

Nik Tarascio 

So is it fair to say like, again, we're talking about an automatic system, which inherently has a problem if the damn thing goes off the rails? Right? Like, you're like, dammit, I have this system that keeps on hijacking me throughout the day. And I don't know the inputs and outputs. I don't know where the buttons are, I don't know where the reset. I'd imagine on some level that the value is like, yeah, I want to have control of the system, which is serving me in some capacities, like in many capacities, I imagine, although I imagine the modern world is triggering survival responses that are completely invalid at times. Or maybe I shouldn't say the word invalid. I'm sure I'm gonna get the like wrist slap for do not invalidate anyone's experience. But I you know, again, I would imagine maybe is Yeah, that's right. It's not it's not in service of their mission or their goal. And so like, right, to really again, like a lot of this is, this is so in my wheelhouse. By the way, like, I love this stuff. I'm nerding out like I love all the all the terms. I would love to drill it down to like you as a person, you were drawn to this. And I would love to understand, like, what has it done for you? What were you struggling to understand? Was there some aspect of you that found this to be a saving grace or a real thing that that moved you forward? I'd love to hear it from a very specific lens of what did this do for you and why do you do it now?

Courtney Rolfe 

Okay, I can I can I can answer the question.

Nik Tarascio 

All right.

Courtney Rolfe 

The academicpsychotherapist are the most skilled folks in the whole planet. To be able to not answer a question, but with a lot of really

Nik Tarascio 

deflection that flexion mastery. Yeah.

Courtney Rolfe 

What I and I share this with clients as well. And that's why I have no problem sharing it because I think it is helpful to hear the the real world sort of experience of it. And so for myself, when I started to learn first, when I went to my first training, it absolutely just turned my world upside down, I started looking at all my relationships, my choices, my world, what is supporting a regulated nervous system and what's not. So immediately I've got this lens of like, Oh, I got it. And then I took, you know, all of this into practice. And of course, my clients are also having these, like, you know, wow, my experience was not set out it was, and it was helpful. And when I continued to do the work, and learn and the thing about polyvagal theory, nervous system states is, I continue to discover depths of understanding that, like, I have these light bulb moments all the time, and I'm, I want to vote yours in,

Nik Tarascio 

what's one of those like,

Courtney Rolfe 

oh, I don't know, I have, gosh, I don't know if I can think of an exact example. Just the Oh, that was my nervous system. In this situation. You know, it just, it's these little discoveries that keep in it clicks in again, and again, and again, like more and more cumulatively, for me, what was the most powerful is, so dorsal vagal is that bottom, that shutdown, collapse state, that's what we call that one. And that's what we'll call depression, you know, when we get stuck there for a long amount of time, and we lose all of our sense of connection, or hope, or it's really tough place to get stuck. And anyone who's had a depressive episode knows, it can be pretty freakin scary. And so for me, my home away from home has dorsal, meaning when when life gets really stressful, some of us go to sympathetic and just are, you know, really, really anxious all the time. And some of us go into dorsal and just kind of check out. And so that's me, I go into dorsal more than sympathetic when life comes at me, as I did more and more of the work. I know that I had dorsal was very scary for me, because I have had those stuck times when, when, when I couldn't find my way, it was hard. It's really hard. You don't know your way out, I didn't have any tools or resources, I didn't even know what was happening on this type of like level of understanding. So I was doing the work and doing the work. And I kept kind of still waiting for the shoe to drop. And in a way, like, Okay, this is great. I know the nervous system, but I'm still gonna get stuck there. And I'm scared of it. And so the years went on, the years went on. And I started to realize, oh, I don't think it's actually going to happen. Because what was happening instead was one, I'm knowing my system so much better, that I'm able to. If I go into dorsal, I'm not actually scared of it anymore. I know what's happening.

And I know it's temporary, my system knows how to get back up, it might take a while. And I have had like situations where I got thrown into that place. And it doesn't feel good, even when you know what's going on all the beliefs and narratives and thoughts that come with it, you know, so all my competence will go out the window, and all of a sudden, I'm an imposter in my work. And all of a sudden, I'm no good and relationships and all those stories come along with it. But there's also this layer of awareness of, yeah, but I know what's happening. I know that this is a temporary place, because I understand the physiology. So I kept waiting and waiting for that big drop into the abyss of you know, a depressive episode, which I don't call it that anymore, because it's just a nervous system state. And it never happened anywhere close to the intensity, nor was I scared of it. So as I learned to interrupt my own nervous system patterns and processes and bring in some resource that combined with having a more nurturing, respectful relationship, I'm a nervous system on how to be scared of it. I need to be curious about it, and learn what I need, but don't be scared of it. It's doing its job. It's doing what it's designed to do.

You know, it's protecting me from something even if it feels uncomfortable, it is acting in service of survival and it's protecting. So shifting that relationship with my own nervous system and my own physiological response, like those two things, absolutely have shifted that and it's years and years now.

Nik Tarascio 

I think the thing I hear the most from people in New York, you know, whether friends or just, you know, when we're like bullshitting I always ask deep questions when I'm not supposed to. You know, a lot of people say they're either depressed or anxious. So I could say like, it's most things get reduced to that. And I am curious. Is, is, so you're saying depression is this dorsal vagal state? And yeah, anxiety is the sympathetic state.

Courtney Rolfe 

Look, I probably would get kicked out of a lot of therapy circles. But I would be invited into a lot of other things like I, I kind of mentioned, before we started, I just came from this on big trauma conference where we had some of our biggest leaders in in trauma, and, you know, all things psychotherapy. And this is the shift that the whole industry is going, this is the direction we are taking our turn toward. So for a long time, I've considered myself a bit of an outlier, in the therapy world in the therapist world, because this is not the language that everybody speaks. But more and more people are putting the pieces together and including it into the you know, it's not that therapy doesn't work without this. But having this information really supports the therapeutic work that people are already doing, it really helps it move along. And so I am a little bit of an outlier, in that I don't use terms like depression, I don't use terms like anxiety, because I think it pathologize is very sensical, understandable, normal human experience.

And I would take that even broader to if we want to use labels like borderline personality disorder, or narcissism or, you know, all kinds of different things that we would find. And what we know is that the DSM, which has all our diagnostic labels, I believe that seeing things through the lens of pretty much everything in there is is a different expression of a nervous system that is in different states of dysregulation, or various, you know, stages of dysregulation and regulation or something, we can we can see it through that lens and understand it through that lens. And when we stop pathologizing normal human experience, we actually get some hope. We actually can start working with what we've gotten, we're not stuck in these labels. And in these, you know, as soon as we put a label on it, we start getting curious about what's behind it and in what's causing it what's going on. So I'm not a big fan of diagnostic labels.

Nik Tarascio 

That's huge. I mean, I could imagine if someone said to me, I'm anxious, it'd be to respond with, oh, you're just someone who goes into the sympathetic state and doesn't yet know how to get yourself out of it. Like it's like, but like, there's something to that, right. It's like, Hey, I love that of instead of like, making this something other than what it is, it's, you are having the experience of an elevated nervous system, where you have having the experience of a shutdown nervous system.

Yeah, like or, like, there's something really beautiful about that, because it does start to put the power back with like, hey, no one showed you how this system runs, right? No one ever taught you how to manage the machinery and be like putting someone in a car and saying, yeah, go go race, the Indy 500. Like, let's slow down. And I love that, Rob, it's all your fault, because you're broke. That's right. Going back, because you talked about like in your intro, when I talk about self compassion. Yeah, I am. On a 2023, for me has been the self compassion year. Because I'm like, you know, it's one thing to say like, like you said, like, I'm anxious. But then I shame myself for the fact that I'm anxious instead of saying like, no, that's my body's response to normal inputs that I don't quite understand or external factors that are don't yet understand. I love that it's really taking the power back into your system is actually working exactly as it was designed. Yeah, we just don't yet understand it. And so let's get curious and figure out what's going on. So I love that I really like now we're getting to the stuff that I'm just like, hallelujah, like this is really what I think it's all about is getting away from all these really limiting belief systems that are disempowering. It's super disempowering for a lot of people that I've spoken to. I think this is the perfect jump off point for fulfillment in life and satisfaction.

Courtney Rolfe 

Can I add one more thing, always. There's another really important part of polyvagal theory that we need to name, which is CO regulation, which is, as humans were designed to connect with each other. And that brings us nurturing and regulation and all of that and we are caught we are basically navigating the world, either communicating welcome or communicating warning with with our body posture, face or voice, everything. And when we receive those cues of safety from someone else, it regulates our system, it calms our stress. So I want to name that because it's a huge part of what we want to do with this information as well. We need community we need connection, we there's a biological imperative, we must have it for survival. And so you know, somewhere in there, maybe that's like, you know, part two of our conversation we could talk about CO regulation for the whole An hour because it's really rich. And so I just don't want

Nik Tarascio 

to my favorite topics now, because I just read Terry reels book us. He gets really into that CO regulation piece. And I'm like, wow, that's something I've not done well, because I think my, my, you know, my autonomic nervous system has been so hijacked. And I've just been so like, I didn't have the body connection. So as I'm coming into my body, I'm like, Oh, shit, I didn't know that my inability to co regulate us because I'm, I came really myself like I am, like, just so disconnected from who I am. I don't have that sense. And I might probably saying it all wrong. And you're probably like, Nick, that's sort of how it went, Well, okay,

Courtney Rolfe 

what what I just want to add is maybe create a little more space for the thing isn't do co regulate, maybe you're aware of the times that it's hard, you know, but there are times that you do co regulate perfectly well, and that maybe it's something you struggle with. So just some of the language has limited, and it isn't really probably reflective of your actual experience, because even right now we're co regulating, I can feel it regulated, we're good. We're in connection, right. So you do have the ability to co regulate. So that's, that's, that's what I what I do

Nik Tarascio 

know, but I really do think this concept of so many people again, like, I speak mostly to New York, but also like I spend a lot of time traveling, I spent a lot of time with again, people that are running businesses, high high high stress, right, like more stress, than the average person should be taking on more responsibility and fear just constantly, I've noticed that a lot of those people, and I'm, you know, again, I self described as one of them have really struggled in romantic partnership, where I think autoregulation is super, super critical, super, super critical. And that does kind of lean towards some people like I don't really find relationships to be that fulfilling. And it's like, oh, there seems to be a co regulation problem here. There seems to be or a denial of something. And again, whether it's co regulation polyvagal theory, I am very curious about how you think all of this ties to fulfillment and satisfaction in life. Going back to my prior question.

Courtney Rolfe 

Yeah, okay.

Nik Tarascio 

Small question I know, but

Courtney Rolfe 

the thing with it for a moment, our realities are limited to the survival state that we're in. Our stories are limited to the survival state we're in. So if I'm in a sympathetic nervous system, mobilized state, basically, my story is going to be aligned with the world. It's dangerous, nobody's there for me, you know, who just got my back, I'm all on my own. I gotta fight my way out of here. Everything's dangerous, right? So that is my reality. In that state, where in there is room for connection, or safety or intimacy or anything, right? Same with dorsal, what is the story that goes along with dorsal now that we know the physiology, it is it's hopeless, I'm helpless, there's no way out, doesn't matter, I give up the world is irrelevant. I don't even exist, right. It's all that kind of stuff. Where in there is the neurocircuitry for connection, it's not lit up, we still have a vagus nerve in our body, but it is not firing. Only in that regulated state. Do we have the neuro circuits that allow us to feel connected, fulfilled, at peace at ease, safe enough to be open to life, you know, so it really kind of is a bit of a black and white, it can't be it's either or, you know, I'm either in a place of connection, or I'm in a place of protection. It doesn't I mean, there's, we can get into some of the finer details, but for the most part, the circuitry only allows one or the other. And so if I'm existing in a survival state of mobilization, because I'm the CEO of a huge company, and I'm taking on too much, and baba, baba, bah, unless we're really intentional in giving our system a freakin break. You know, like finding the spaces where we can let our system just downshift a bit. We're not we're not going to have the space for contentment, or fulfillment are ease or peace or connection or empathy or compassion, or self compassion or creativity or any of those things can't both exist.

Nik Tarascio 

Now that's, well thought like that, as well thought out. I had no idea which way you're gonna go with that. But that is

Courtney Rolfe 

Me neither. Yeah.

Nik Tarascio 

No, that's great. It really is an incredible diagnostic. I think that's what today's talk was about. And I think, you know, we're just coming up to the point where we land the conversation. Yeah. But this was a much more technical than my typical podcast, and I really wanted it to go there because it's amazing to find out that many of us are run by a system that we don't even know we have. We don't know how it works. We don't know what it's doing, but the amount of conversations I have with people Almost everything that they're struggling with comes back to a system that they don't even know. Right? Whether it's like I can't make relationships or I'm stressed out, I don't have real intimacy, or I think the world is out to get me I never feel safe. Or I'm anxious. I'm pissed off. Like, it's like, it's amazing. Like all of that. I'm like, wow, these all touch. Yes. polyvagal theory, the nervous system. And we're not really having that conversation. Instead, we're pathologizing medicated shaming. Yeah,

Courtney Rolfe 

it is unbelievable. My work here is done.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, well done, well done with getting that point across. So what I will say is, before I kind of share some closing thoughts and some opportunities, and, you know, just, I'm going to ask you some ways that people can learn more about this work, if they're down that road, what is your dream beyond? So here you are, you're doing this amazing work, you're helping people. What gets you excited about the future?

Courtney Rolfe 

I am so excited about how many people are interested in this and the fact that it has landed in my geeky zone as well, because now I the more and more have a platform to be able to share this. So I am absolutely on a mission of bringing this information to clinicians and laypeople and everybody else in between. Because I see I see the change, I see how powerful it is. So that's, that's where I am. So I'm just trying, I'm trying to get out there speaking more. And there are a lot of resources. And hopefully I'll be part of the contribution to the resources that are available for people to learn more

Nik Tarascio 

incredible. Yes. That's it's beautiful work. It's really beautiful, important work. So thank you for doing what you do. And yeah, you know, again, I think my my closing thought for self and building on my 2023 is, this really does seem to be an incredibly powerful way to cultivate that self compassion and self understanding the self awareness like it's just it touches on so many things, like I said, just just a little bit before. And truly I came on this thing, like I've heard the words I've read about it. You know, I always like know a little bit more than I pretend like I know, on the podcast, so I could just ask us if I didn't know anything, but I really didn't understand this. I'll be honest, this is one of those things that I'm like, lots of words, dorsal fins. I've heard of those before, what the hell does like there's ventral fins like what is his we talked about fishes now. Like, I was very confused, and not really like coming to that place of of like, wow, this is so much more important than I ever realized. And I think you've done a great job of giving us a lot of context, some of the technical stuff, but then really getting into the deeper why of to really know how you show up in every circumstance. And to have that self mastery. This seems like a great area of knowledge to to wander into. And just as a, you know, inviting other people that might be like, Okay, I'm it. I'm curious, I want to I want to learn this. I want to spread the message. You told me some some websites you'd recommend and some of your own as well. But what recommend, what recommendations do you have for people that are like, yep, Sign me up? Where do I go? What do I do?

Courtney Rolfe 

Oh, my God, I plug my own publications coming out under percent? percent. I'm not sure if it's November, January. I've actually partnered so my mentor is Deb. Dana. So I mentioned her at the beginning on Dr. Porges, steam kortesis, who came up with a theory. And then Deb, Dina translated it for us. And she's my mentor, and now, you know, colleague and CO creator on all kinds of stuff. And so we've actually created, she's written a bunch for clinicians and others. And we created sort of, it really wanted to create something for non clinical people just for folks who want to learn more. And so we created sort of like kind of like a journal, kind of like a little intro like, reflection questions, things like that. So it's called polyvagal prompts. And I think that's out in, we're in 2023, either November or January, somewhere in between measure. So that is a great entry point to just start getting curious about your system. Other than that, Deb, Dana is a great source. She's got a couple of books that are really easy to pick up and read. Anchored is one Pauline Eagle Institute is a place that has some like courses and things. So that's where they take Polly they go into all kinds of different directions in all kinds of different industries. You know, I'm a clinician I mostly speak to clinicians

Nik Tarascio 

are your website, modern mind and heart.com? Or a modern mind

Courtney Rolfe 

and heart? Yeah, where are usually that's kind of like any trainings coming up and speaking events, things like that. And you know, maybe I'll start putting some podcasts interviews up there one of these days. Gary, hearing Deborah, very cool conversations about it. So yeah,

Nik Tarascio 

amazing. Well, I really appreciate everything you shared. And I was, again, maybe it is a co regulation thing. I was excited by your excitement for it. It felt myself like going into almost like I'm on stage. I feel like I'm performing. And it's not just because it's a podcast, because you really seem super, super drawn to this work, and you're just so elevated by it. So thank you for bringing so much heart to it.

Courtney Rolfe 

Yeah. Thanks for having me. So much fun. Awesome. I

Nik Tarascio  hope everybody He enjoyed and yeah, we'll see you again soon. Thank you for listening to the dream beyond. I hope that you receive whatever message or inspiration you're meant to get from today's episode. Had a great time recording it for you. If you love the show, please take 30 seconds to subscribe rate and review it. That really helps get the word out. And if you want to connect with me, you can find me at

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[the-dream-beyond]

Episode 21: Redefining Wealth: An Experientially Rich Life With Joe Huff

Nik Tarascio 

I was actually curious in the study. Was there anything that surprised you? Was there anything in there? They were like, I did not see that coming.

Joe Huff 

Yeah, the biggest one was how many people listed as their most important experience of their life, a negative experience.

Nik Tarascio 

Imagine this next breath that you're taking is your last breath. I think back to everything you've done in your life, think of all the things you wished you did. All the things you were really happy you did. And ask the question, why didn't you do more of the stuff that you wished you had? What were all the reasons that got in the way? I think this next speaker really touches on that as it's not too late. How do we cultivate that sense of urgency, and then go and make that life of our dreams. That's pretty much what the show is about. So I really hope you enjoy this next conversation. That may be the kick in the ass you need to just make make your life exactly what you want it to be. Add more of those incredible experiences that make it perfectly rich for you. Hope you enjoy.

Welcome to the dream beyond. I'm your host, Nik Tarascio. I'm a CEO, musician and overall seeker of Truth, inspiration, and simply put, how to live the most fulfilling life possible. Growing up surrounded by extremely wealthy and successful people gave me unique and unfiltered perspectives of those who have seemingly made it through on the dream beyond, we're letting you in on what it really takes to achieve your dreams. What happens when it turns out your destination isn't the promised land you are expecting and how to process the lessons from your past while mapping of course to true fulfillment. Let's get started.

Hey, guys, how's it going? I'm here with an old friend, who's an entrepreneur for more than three decades brings a wealth of experience as a founder and owner he's led multiple eight figure businesses and achieve successful exits. He's also the co author of the upcoming book experiential billionaire, build a life rich and experiences and die with no regrets. And in that book, he delves into the world of experiential living, which I'm really curious to learn more about. I've not touched her book yet. I figured I get it right from the source. And his quest for experiential richness has taken him across 50 plus countries, all 50 states and diverse cultures. And he gets to share this wisdom as a keynote speaker at major events worldwide. Please welcome Joe Huff, everybody. Thanks for being here, Joe.

Joe Huff 

Thanks for having me, Nik. And great to reconnect.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, man, I think where did we first connect? Was it WAS IT Summit? It was also in Sedona? Yeah, I

Joe Huff 

think it might have been Sedona first. I'm not actually sure which one happened first, but Sedona was definitely where the the deeper connection happened, for sure. So that's

Nik Tarascio 

right. That's right. Shout out to Andrea lake for that for bringing some really great people together. And it's super cool. It's like, you know, people come into your life, and then you don't know what happened for a bit. And then something awesome happens, and you just collide back into there. So thank you for allowing this collision today.

Joe Huff 

Yeah, you know, it's funny, we actually talked about that in the book about those types of, you know, the importance of those relationships, because it's really experiences create deep, meaningful relationships. And then those deep meaningful relationships, create more opportunities for experiences by you know, those people that you forge those bonds with, because like, even if it's a decade later, when you if you whether you bump into them or you see their name pop up on your phone, or they come up in conversation, you just get this feeling because you remember, like this moment that you shared together some really cool experience that like bonded you forever. That's really cool. Yeah. Yeah, no, on the other side to like, the whole, like, don't

Nik Tarascio 

be an asshole policy, it proves really true. And you're like, you never know, when you're gonna run into someone later in your life. You never know when they know someone and it just feels really good. Like you said, you just see something you're like, I don't even know what we spoke about 10 years ago, exactly. But I know that I feel really good around you. And I'm lit up when I see you. So really love that. And I'd love to start at a place that is kind of my favorite opening question is when you were little What did you dream you'd be when, when you grew up? What was the thing that that you were really excited about?

Joe Huff 

Oh, definitely. By, like, the adolescent years, definitely rock star. It was definitely music was a big part of my life. And I definitely thought, you know, wow, what an incredible opportunity to to be able to be like a worldwide global type of rock star. They seem to have a pretty good life. Of course, like the the lifespan wasn't so great for a lot of investors. It seemed like a pretty fun ride while I was there. So you know, it's funny, we talk about this stuff in again, like that's, that's something that I think people should spend more time thinking about. I love that question that you asked that right now. Because as we get older, we suppress all that stuff, right? We just decide that, you know, those were dreams when we were kids. And we put it aside and we said maybe someday and even like I see all like big guitars on the wall behind you.

They're people that were musicians and like, oh, I want to play in the band. And I'll do that someday. And then that someday just goes into the someday. Outlander This is a great abyss, you know, we call it someday syndrome, and then it just doesn't happen. But there's really not a great reason for it not happening. You don't have to become like the rock star, right. But you can follow that dream and get quite a lot of joy out of just, you know whether you get up on stage in front of your friends, or whether it's at a cafe or something. So. So I think that the big part of what we preach is that finding your dreams is part of it, but also rediscovering the dreams you had that you forgot about is a really huge part of it.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, and I do think I remember that probably 10 years ago, we connected on that, because that was my dream, too. I was like, I want to be a rock star. It's interesting, I still desire much of that aspect of the dream. But not the same reason why underneath I think, like when I first wanted it as a teenager, I wanted to be worthy of love. And I was like, if a million people love me, maybe then I'll know that I'm worthy of it. I just want to have that, you know, that kind of experience. But now it's more like How cool would it be to impact a million people with your words? Right, which you get to do on stage as well. I imagine that in many ways, the things you do now, are still related to some aspects of that dream. And I'd love to hear that. Like how, how has that informed your journey? How has that ended up with even where you are now?

Joe Huff 

Oh, man, that's that's the whole thing. That's really, and it's, again, really insightful way to put it. You know, when you're when you're young, you know, you're thinking about impressing other people, because you want to make friends you want to find your significant other, there's a lot of reasons that you feel like that. But as you get older, and you start to realize that the real truth is you get so much joy out of making the world better and making people's lives better connecting with with people in a way that's meaningful to them. And it's the, you know, like the idea, music, right? That's a great example, again, because so many people get a feeling from it, you know, it's such a, it's a great positive feeling.

I think I think it's a Rick Rubin quote that says something like, the goal isn't to create, you know, perfect art, the goal is to basically create something that people knew existed but couldn't touch or couldn't feel or didn't know how to attend to connect with that. And then you just show them that. And that's really what I feel like we're doing where, you know, when you tell people that your experiences are the greatest thing in your lives, and the most important thing and the most valuable thing in your lives. Everybody knows it. It's like, if you asked everybody that, especially as they get older, they will Oh, yeah. But at the same time, that's a harder one act. It's like we have this glitch, you know, in our in our system, but it's those connections, those proof points where you actually do something and you affect somebody, and it starts to, you know, come back to you oh, wait a minute, you know, that's just they're still awake, that all that stuff for me, even now, it's funny with the journey of writing the book, which is like a really crazy, crazy, difficult journey. Little tiny things along the way. Were so impactful.

Like, for instance, like having a proofreader read, like the first draft, and then come back and say, you know, yeah, I made some edits. And here's some things I think that, you know, doesn't make sense grammatically. Also, by the way, this inspired me to move to California, like I always said I was going to do and I wound up living in Michigan for 10 years instead, because I got sidetracked. And your book just completely reminded me that I just suppressed my goals and forgot what I really wanted to do. And Baba, I've, we've heard this story like 100 times now just in the process, book writing process with the handful of folks that have like, read it. So that's been really cool. And then on the broader stage, like when you actually get out in front of a bunch of people. The overwhelming response is just wow, yeah, you know, everybody's like, it's this kind of like, tapping back into something that we all know deeply that we just suppress, because we get really busy with life. And it's very normal. So

Nik Tarascio 

you know, what, and what is that feeling from the stage for you, is like to be up there. Like when you're up there, when you're up there speaking to a bunch of people and sharing from your heart sharing your story. I'm wondering what that feels like for you and your body.

Joe Huff 

Yeah, you know, that's interesting that you say that. Also, it's a great question, because I used to actually have a lot of stage fright. I used to be, you know, afraid of public speaking like most people, it's called claustrophobia. It's like effects like it's like, considered to be I think the number one fear in modern societies, public speaking. And I reframed that because I really felt like this message was something I had to get out.

And as I started reframing that in my head of like, this is so important, and this is something I need to share. And I started really turning that kind of fear into this isn't your this is I'm excited to tell this story. It became way more personal and when I'm on stage, and I'm talking when I'm delivering this message. I definitely feel like I'm in my at a bar full of close friends, and I'm trying to just kind of share something that is really deeply meaningful to me. And that connects really well and makes me feel like I'm yeah, it just feels really good to know that I'm able to connect like that, because I do feel like, you know, the delivery system has the chance to, you know, we've all been preached at, we've all been told things, this position of like authority, and nobody wants that, you know, I definitely don't want to give people that. I try to actually, in general, when I'm on like a one on one kind of conversation, ask way more questions than tell that people kind of come to the answers on their own. But, but yeah, I feel like, I just feel like I'm in, I'm in a place that I'm meant to be in, and it just feels really, really good.

Nik Tarascio 

So kind of, I'm gonna stay with the music theme for a second, because I think we've kind of touched on something that has showed up in a lot of parts of my life. And probably for a lot of people that don't see themselves as creatives or artists, but realize their work. Their work is their art, right, whatever that thing is, it isn't just the medium of being a rock star. I think of your book, in many ways, like writing a perfect song, right?

Everyone's after, like, I just want to write the perfect song, I want to write the song that takes off on its own. It has a life of its own, it actually goes beyond me. I think Rick Rubin talks about that, too, of like, there's a certain point where you realize you were just the conduit, and it's the song belongs to everybody else. And what was the moment? What was the moment where you were like, wow, this is my song. Like, this is the song that I need to go put out there. I need to produce it, I need to get it all done and put it out into the world. And how did you know?

Joe Huff 

I mean, that's what's been the culmination of of a lot, I had been telling a lot of my close, close friends and my wife and people that I feel like right now. I am, everything I've gone through in my life has prepared me and, and guided me to this moment, I really feel like, that's where I'm at. And so I think I'm actually just coming to that moment you're talking about, I feel like this is my song. This is what it's meant to be. And I can kind of give you the backstory in a somewhat short version, and like to probably make a little more sense for the audience. But yeah, this whole life journey for me started, when I was really young, my parents met on an assembly line making brake pads in the Midwest.

So you know, my closest experience to a trust fund was trusting that my parents would fund the occasional trip to an ice cream truck. I was trying to figure out, you know, the whole rock star and Blackstone sounded pretty good, but it was pretty far fetched lifestyle for me. And I had a rough childhood in a lot of ways. I overcame some some things that were self inflicted, etc. And I made it somehow through high school and right as I was graduating high school, I came downstairs rip for my 18th birthday and, and my dad called my dad slumped over the kitchen table. And he was pails, you know, just white as a sheet and drenched in sweat. And, and we rushed into the hospital, he was 48 years old. And he had worked his whole life and had I'm sure this great grand plan for retirement. And it turned out that wasn't just a heart attack, we got to the hospital, and they said that his heart was failing, he had cardiomyopathy. And it was a really advanced stage. And it was standing right that not in the future at some distant point.

And they added him to the top of the transplant list and told us he Eberly low at survival. And, you know, we were like pacing this hospital, I'll show you and walk into another halls looking in these other rooms, seeing these other people in these situations. And it just, it just felt so wrong to feel like this is how people live, you know, they're postponing their goals in their life now for this future that just might not exist. And, you know, I kept thinking about other things my dad wanted to do so but had it and, and the more I just kept turning that over, I was just like, this is this is bullshit. This is all wrong, something's wrong with this plan.

But um, you know, that moment gave me this really great gift. It gave me this gift of urgency. And I basically my dad, by the way, it was very lucky. He was one of the lucky ones he got a transplant and wasted we got a second chance at life, which was also extremely, extremely impactful on my life watching that happen. But it made me aware that I might not have time for my dreams and my goals. So that sent me off on this just crazy urgent journey in life where I was determined to try to do stuff that you know, come hell or high water, I was gonna figure out ways to do things. I didn't have much money or, you know, resources. But I was like, I'm just gonna figure out what I could do.

And that led me on this. You know, I had a bunch of terrible jobs. They did a bunch of different things, but I met a lot of people got a lot of new experiences and it just kept building from those little steps again, actually led me to one of my friends started a small T Shirt Company that then somehow accidentally turned into a warehousing business that we somehow accidentally built into a pretty big warehousing business over a decade. And, you know, that was that was like, none of that would have happened had I not just been gifted this gift of like urgency, I would have probably just been sitting where I grew up in the same town doing the same thing. But because of that, I made all those changes.

And then something else happened with my dad, which was he actually got cancer, which happens from the type of drugs that you do you do from a immunotherapy. And I brought him home for hospice care. And I was able to watch the second end of life for him kind of, and that gave me this really great clarity of just like, what's going to matter? What are we thinking about for the end of our lives, and they began to get that gift at a young age, relatively speaking, that that just sent me off again, like another the urgency I had had kind of like, plateaued, and that just kicked it back into gear again.

And I, I had always thought, you know, I, I'd love to be a philanthropist and do something, you know, in a positive way to impact the world. But I'm not rich, I'm not Bill Gates, I don't have any money, your time. And then I thought that's all an excuse for a reason. And these are all the kinds of things we talk about in the book a lot is like, you know, how do we just overcome those, those excuses and those reasons? And yeah, so So what happened this I, I left the company and started doing a bunch of other stuff. And that, that led me to my business partner, Bridgette, who saw me doing charity work with other companies.

And we started, listen, and we started giving hearing aids to people around the world. And that turned into us traveling around the world for a decade and giving over 50,000 people hearing aids, which was like the most remarkable life changing experience ever. And then along that route along that road, people kept coming up to us. And this this actually ties right back to the actual concept of the book and how I found my saw, people kept coming up to us and going wow, you guys must be rich, you guys must be killing it. You know, you're traveling all over the world, we saw beats sold the app $3 billion, you guys are about to buy your own private jet or something. We're like, I'm actually we're pretty broke. We're what's on paper is not the same as what's in the bank account.

But we're having all these incredible experiences. So we like to consider ourselves experiential billionaires. So we would tell people that as a way to kind of laugh off the fact that we were giving all of our money to charity, and doing all this stuff. And, and then this was still a really great lifestyle for us, because we were, the fulfillment level was like, you know, we were at the brim. And then 2020 happens, you know, everything shuts down, we can't do the missions, we started the company to actually give hearing aids and came up with the speakers and headphones as a as a tool. So suddenly, we were just selling speakers and headphones, because there were no more mass, you know, we couldn't get together and give people hearing it.

And we we really actually just did a deep dive and asked our friends and our mentors and our network and said, What's the value that you see us giving to the world? And what could we do that would be the most impactful or positive thing. And everybody kept coming back into saying, your stories about how you've done all these things like that's, that's the message now you guys should really share that because it's really inspiring, because, you know, we, we came from like, unassuming beginnings, you know, a humble beginning to like turn somehow into like giving millions and millions of dollars away and traveling the world and checking off all these things in our lives, where we help other people check things up on their list kind of thing. And yeah, that was like, how it all kind of just coalesced into writing the book.

And And one last note on it, we started writing the book about just this, you know, the science and research behind how important it is to invest in, in experiences, because, you know, all the data shows that that is the number one regret people have. And then so we actually ran our own survey of over 20,000 people to see, you know, what are the number one regrets you have in your life? What are the things you most want to do? Still, why haven't you done them yet? You know, we started collecting all this data. And as we started writing the book, though, it turned more and more into our life stories with all of these, you know, messages in them and exercises and the research data points and all that. And it just became this like, really, you know, this is the most personal thing I've ever done by far. And it's like, you know, really, like, I guess that's when it became like, this is my song. This is what I'm, I'm standing firm on this is like this is this is what I believe and I hope I really truly believe this can transform people's lives that they if they follow this kind of path. So yeah,

Nik Tarascio 

well, congrats and thank you Let's, you answered a bunch of my questions, which was really going to be touching on, you know, the relationship to regret. And going into the study. I was actually curious in the study. Was there anything that surprised you? Was there anything that you were like, I did not see that coming?

Joe Huff 

Yeah, the biggest one was how many people listed as their most important experience of their life, a negative experience. So many people actually said, you know, this, this thing happened, you know, where, whether it was like a divorce or a loss. And even like, in my case, you know, that's an example where, you know, losing someone made somebody aware of something or they changed, or, you know, they got fired from a job, and then they actually wound up going into the thing they had wanted to do. And that was really interesting to see that it took some outside negative force.

And this is part of that, you know, the hero's journey, stuff that we all we all know, where it's like that everyday, ordinary person, some crazy obstacle happens, and they overcome it and become this better, bigger thing. And, you know, that was really, really powerful. The other thing I would say that was really surprising and alarming is, and this is something that I really think speaks to, you know, your audience. There's so many people that we just all fake, we have more time, right? So there's so many things on our list. And if we really hone down the list and like make that actual plan, you know, once we get the urgency, we got to visualize, there's so many things that are so achievable, that we just don't do, because we just assumed, like, so many people put things like, I regret never having taken my wife to go see where I grew up in the next state over, you know, and now she's gone, or I regret, you know, never taking learning Japanese because my parents spoke it.

And I always wanted to be able to learn more about our culture history, and I didn't, you know, things that were very, very achievable and doable in this day and age, especially with, you know, the access to some most of it wasn't expensive, there's a lot of things, obviously, people, some people put stuff like, I always wanted to go to, you know, Italy or something. But a lot of the stuff was very, very, very attainable. They just slipped by, because they just didn't get it on their calendar didn't make an effort to do it. So. So that's the kind of stuff that I think people can avoid, you know, with my daddy, I like to like, kind of phrase it like that. And with most people, we always hear the story right of somebody that has a near death experience, or loses someone close to them, and then they go out and run that marathon or climb that mountain or do that thing that they always wanted to do. The thing that's really crazy is like, you know, with my dad, for instance, like that the health situation wasn't avoidable, probably.

But the regret that he would have had had he passed that first time around was, you know, because he had just been putting off all those things. So we're trying to give people that urgency, without the near death experience.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, I appreciate that. I really appreciate the what you said, you know, people find that the negative experience is often the blessing, right? It's often the thing that's like, let me kick my ass into gear. That was the meaningful turning books I know. Especially like New York, the Western world, a lot of our life is avoiding the negative, right? It's like, I don't want to face the shadow. I don't want to deal with the darkness. I want to press buttons and everything show up. So I never have to feel any form of discomfort. And it's interesting to see it's on some point it almost as if maybe the gift of health is sometimes look if you're not going to listen to all the signs that are telling you you're not on the right course. We'll just take it off from you. And some of us are lucky enough to catch it right before right catch right before and say I didn't have to lose everything to really get my life in I appreciate that story.

Joe Huff 

Yeah, I It's funny. In my talk, I always like to start off with I tell a story about how even when I was 27, I actually I had to file for bankruptcy. And I it was really, really difficult time in my life. It was this really terrible situation. But at the time, I had also decided I was going to do stand up comedy for the last few years I've been trying it off and I was actually younger. And instead of like dwelling on it actually it turned out to be a really great joke in my stand up comedy because when I went to file for bankruptcy, they told me that it costs $2,500 to file for bankruptcy. So I had to go around telling people I'd like to be bankrupt, but I just can't afford it. This just became like a It's all framing things. You may turn it into a joke and be canceled. If you don't laugh, you'll cry kind of thing. So yeah.

Nik Tarascio 

Beautiful. I'd love to go a little bit deeper into as you were speaking and touching on the urgency. And again, I think this I've had a similar experience of watching my grandmother die when I was really young and she spent a lot of time in a hospital really struggled with health issues. And it was my urgency in many ways watching that happen was I also had a lot of health issues when I was a teenager and again, these were the blessings of like everyone else's like we've got infinite time I was 17. And I'm like, I could die tomorrow. So, you know, that wasn't true, necessarily, but that's what it felt like. I'm curious, how do people balance? Or how do they know if they're running from death? Versus running towards life? Right? Because I think that that is one of the things that can happen when we experience death at an early age or lose someone that we really care about, or watch just the suffering of that.

Joe Huff 

Yeah, you know, there's, to me, I think the Western world in particular, you know, we're really good at avoiding the conversation of death. So if there's one, you know, for sure thing that we all know that everybody's gonna die. I think that if you dwell on it, and you know, it could become obviously a morbid and be create, like a fear induced reaction, which isn't really what I think is healthy at all, I think that it's contemplating its, you know, thinking of like, this is going to happen, and you know, we use the momentum warrior, you know, that has what's right in the card deck, it's in the book. But in America, right now, it's 76 is the average lifespan. It's actually 74 for men and 78. For for women.

So it's just a box set, it's a chart of 76 boxes, and you can just fill out how many you've lived so far by year and see how much time you have left on average. And that again, that's not to create, like fear, it's to create reality. So you can look at the math and go, Okay, I got, hopefully, if I'm average, or above average, I've got, you know, 20 boxes left, I said, I want to go to all the states or I want to visit these 12 places or whatever, like if I'm going to do one of those a year, I gotta start planning, you know, just gives you like, as a template map of like, okay, this is how much time because if you don't do that, you won't, but if you start looking at it, you know, from Oh, my God, I've got to do everything like next week, you could probably start making some on healthy habits. You don't want to like chase things down as though like we say, like you want to. It's kind of like the Gandhi approach of you know, you want to live as if you'll die tomorrow learn is that you'll live forever.

So you want to have long term goals, still you want it you couldn't plan a family or you know, a long term career, any of those things, if you actually act as though you're going to live tomorrow, you're going to be pretty self destructive, because you're not going to think that the repercussions are going to last. So it's really more of a contemplating it. So you can form a plan, there's, there's a lot of really great ways to like use that math, like, you know, if you think you're going to, versus if your parents are like in their 70s already, you know, maybe you know, they're doing well, maybe they're not maybe the last 20 years, and we'll have five but if you just use the average and you go, okay, they've got like, on average, four or five boxes left, and I see them once a year, that means I'm only going to see my parents five more times, well, maybe I should make some changes to my travel schedule and my plan, my kids, you know, with me, I've got two small kids, you know, one and a half and three and a half. And this time is flying by so if I want to take them to the amusement park or the zoo or on a road trip or camping or you know, you got to plan those things, because it's going to just slip right by all the sudden it's like, oh, I didn't ever take that road trip or did that one thing? And then you're gonna have that that's the kind of regret that's avoidable. But yeah.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, that's a great perspective. Was that clear? Yeah, it doesn't, you know, I think the, the place that I go to with that is, starting with that reality seems like a really great way to see it. Right. It's like, I think that that Denial of Death would be someone that doesn't want to look at the fact that like, there is a chance that this as long as I'm gonna go on average, right? The or at least most of the people in my life, on average, that people my life, we're gonna probably go around that age. So I do really like that as an approach of start with the reality of what's there. And then the case that like, I'm sure you've spoken to so many people about this, I imagine. Have you spoken to people that couldn't face the reality that you've experienced them? Like, almost like, this is not something I want to think about?

Joe Huff 

Oh, gosh, I mean, I mean, and yeah, I would say the majority of people probably like they're very much like, I don't want to think about or talk about that. Because it's scary. You know, a lot of people look at it, like, it's scary. They don't they can't reframe it into, okay, you know, this is finite, but which is it's weird, right? Because it's, it's avoiding, it doesn't make it go away. Right. It's not like it's like sticking your head in the sand. Yeah, so, um, but there's definitely a lot of people that, that need that kind of push.

And that's why I think getting into again, the book I think does a really good job of like a building of showing people you know, how to start thinking like that, you know, we do a really cool exercise called the treasure map right in the beginning that you know, you actually you pretend that you got that call from your doctor that you only have 30 days left to live what are you gonna do? You know, then you're using that as kind of like, you know, there's a it's a longer exercise than that but using That kind of as a base, you know how many of those things are on your list now and why not, you know, and then we kind of build into that, like, here's all the things that other people said, you know, these things sound familiar.

And this is, if they probably do, and this is ways to start, like, removing those kind of regrets by doing those things, and putting those things on your calendar and taking steps to do them. And then, as you do that stuff, you start to see that fear of the specter of your mortality kind of go away, because suddenly your life feels full and purposeful. And I think the fear that people experience is the fear of getting to the end and not feeling like they had that life story. They want it you know, I'm gonna take that verse eulogy, where if you, if you picture your eulogy being said today, if something happened to you, today, would it be the eulogy that you want for your life? Would it be, you know, Nik, he did this and this and this and how he affected people.

And if it's not that now, you got to change it right? And you can, it's super easy to start taking the steps to just start working towards what you want that to be, I have a very, very powerful proof point of how, how well this works, unfortunately. So my wife and I, we met a decade ago, and my wife lives halfway around the world. And our relationship was founded in like us traveling to meet when we could and spending a lot of time all over. And we were really intentional about like, where we met and what we did. And her friends were all around the world and mine were around the world, we got married and Indonesia and Bali.

And you know, we we wound up doing all these really cool experiences together. And then we planned, we did the work, like I'm telling you in the book, you know, we figured out our treasure map what we want to do how we want to try to maximize our time here. And we finished the first draft of the book. And we literally read before the end of the second draft, my wife got diagnosed with stage three breast cancer. This is just a year ago. And she was It was literally like, the weekend of her 34th birthday. So it was a wild wild journey. And she did five months of chemotherapy and then a double mastectomy. And then she had radiation and a full year of immunotherapy.

And it works, the treatments worked. There was you know, obviously about eight months of of being unsure if that was going on what was happening was working or not, but but we're out we're just now on the other the other side of it, but the reason I share that story is first of all, my wife is just a badass, and she just handled this, like, you know, as a mother of two young kids, it's I can't even begin to explain how much respect I have and how it I think as a lot of guys probably think I'm tough like she she made the tough like into a thing I can't even imagine, you know, she's like a superhero. But the reason that I think it's so important to us that stories, at the end of it, as we found out that it worked in her pathology came back negative and the tumors were gone.

We didn't have a bunch of changes in our future. You know, like with my dad, he had to change his whole life. He literally moved to Mexico and started doing all these adventures and things he had never done. My wife and I our plans the same. And that was so powerful to me. Because when we sat down and started thinking about what we were going to do, there wasn't like, we got to make all these changes, we got to we've been going to living for other people, we've been doing the wrong thing.

We actually were like, we're on our path. And this was just a crazy, crazy obstacle that she just broke through. But the path was the same and that was really powerful. Because like obviously we would be in still, you know, the idea of something happening and losing her it'd be completely devastating. But the regret part, you know of how she's been living her life isn't there. She's been living her life on her terms the way she wanted and intentionally. So that's a powerful

Nik Tarascio 

what's an incredible it's an incredible story. And again, sorry you went through that and congratulations for coming on the other side of it with a positive outcome. I wonder for you is there is there a regret you look back on in your life as someone who's had to think about that so much. Is there something specifically like that is the number one regret I had?

Joe Huff 

Oh, you know what, man, I mean, and hotshot more regrets than I can imagine. But I don't have it's funny because I guess that's the difference when you start talking about this kind of a life right where it's most people's biggest regrets are the things they didn't do not the things they did that went wrong. So my regrets for things I did are things like that was you know, that was dumb. I could have done that better, et cetera on but the bigger regrets probably not starting I feel like even like, like this whole idea of what your song is that use that musical metaphor. I feel like if I had actually done the more personal work, I probably would have been doing this sooner I had a lot of fear, I was actually very afraid of, you know, basically telling people this message or this story or trying to, you know, influence people, I felt like maybe that would be maybe I'm a fraud, maybe I'm not worthy of sharing that etc.

And, and I feel like, took me a long time to get past that. And so I would say I probably just regret not starting sooner. And I think that's the overall message that most of the regrets in the 20,000 Plus person survey. It's all stuff like, I wish I started my business sooner. I wish I had traveled more sooner. I wish I did. It's all stuff that people wish they did, or started sooner than they did some.

Nik Tarascio 

Have you done the eulogy exercise for yourself?

Joe Huff 

Yeah, you know, we actually went deeper than that Bridget and I did a little fake funeral concert a few years back, the people do this in that and saw and it's, it's quite popular. And I think probably in other parts of the world. It's even been a comical release. But yeah, that it was an episode of Larry David. And we did it like, you know, joking. Way, definitely. But it's powerful. Still, I gotta say, you know, when you ask your friends, like, you know what they would say? I was surprised at how many people you know, talked about how I inspired them to start a business or, you know, do something that they hadn't thought they could do, because I did it.

And I think that that's something that in society we take for granted, we don't realize that our actions are really what speaks the loudest. So you know, like you having this podcast. And there's definitely folks that are listening and watching going, You know what, that that Nick can do it? I could do, you're giving people permission, right to like, live their dreams, and especially if it's like, well, you know, Nick didn't come from some family of broadcasters or history of entertainers, or blah, blah, blah, and it's like it, it connects people in a way they're like, that's that he's like me, I could do that, because he did it.

And that was really powerful. It was really, really powerful to hear how many little things I didn't realize that I had done that affected people without even knowing that I did that. So it's worth doing. I think people, I think people would enjoy that experience. And I think he got it takes a little bit of the that negative like you want to, let's make it a little less serious, the whole deaf topic and make it a little more lighthearted.

Nik Tarascio 

Ya know, I love my 43rd birthday is coming up in two weeks, and I was trying to figure out what to do, I think I'm actually going to do it as funeral. That's great. Because I have some of my closest friends coming over to back, let's have some fun. Let's hear what you guys have to say about it. And like touching on the you know, you talk about stand up comedy, which is something I also pursued for whatever reason you and I have a very, very similar path. And I very much appreciate that. We're also in like, the black T shirt club. But yeah, I think that there's something really beautiful about the idea of comedy is tragedy plus time, right? Like, if you've ever heard that equation, right? And it's like, for most people, it's like, oh, man, things are so heavy and dark. And it's like, just give it some time. Give it some time, we can find the levity in it. And we can laugh about it. Because if we can't laugh about it, then man, it's a hard ride if we can't see the humor in at all.

Joe Huff 

Yeah, we there's a whole chapter in the book, literally turning negatives into positives, because it is and so much of it is that you know, and even that's why the idea of, you know, going out and trying to have an experience, even the stuff that at the time, like, for instance, we all know like for me, I protect the kids. It's hard to travel with kids, but I do it. And in the moment, there's definitely times where I've got like, you know, two very uncomfortable kids or they're driving me a little bit crazy, or, you know, we're whatever you're trying to do whether you're setting up a campsite, or trying to get six hours to a hotel, or, you know, there's maybe projectile vomit or her she knows what with kids.

There's a lot of things happening afterwards. Like right now I'm laughing about it. Yeah, those are the things that you laugh about. Because it's so ridiculous. And that's why like, if you're in an experience with some friends and things like completely sideways, those are the best stories. Those are the ones that you want to tell nobody wants to hear the story about. Yeah, we went on this day trip and everything went absolutely perfectly. And it was very easy. No, no controversy happened. Nobody cares about that story.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I recently was telling someone that my other like, what, what does life mean to you. And I said, life to me is just, you have a certain number of containers of moments. And you try to fill them with with as much experience as you can. And then you have a bunch of connective tissue of like the other stuff that happens in life. And, man, this is I love the way you framed it again, it's like anything, it's like you could take a guitar and you could sing over it. But sometimes when people do it, it moves you in a way that other people can't. And I just love the way you've you've really framed it. Thanks.

Joe Huff 

You know, it's funny when when we started this, you know, writing this and sharing this content but it's not new. I definitely think that lots and lots of people, you know, throughout history have preached this message. And, but it's the time and the messenger. And we hope I hope that I can connect with people that just this hasn't struck, you know, this this concept. And yeah, the whole idea of moments, you know, that's the end to be clear, by the way, you know, this isn't about experiences versus money, I think that people confuse that and they think, well, great, have a bunch of experiences, I've got to work, I've got to pay my bills, absolutely, totally agree, it's about experiences being the most important thing to invest in.

So even if you, you know, have this huge, big idea of like, I want to go on a vacation to you know, travel Europe, and whatever, you put that on your calendar for a year from now. And in the meantime, do what you can do, you know, start filling up your days and stop losing the time that is getting stolen from you every day with stuff that doesn't add value to your life, because that's what you can control, there's a lot of little everyday moments that you fill in around all the bigger picture things. So besides doing the big picture stuff, you got to get those little moments in, because the moments as you put it, you know, those are, that's your experiential, you know, wealth. And the wealth equation that we've been taught forever is that your money equals happiness, and the more money you have, the more happiness and everybody that's successful, that worked their ass off to get successful, but sacrificed everything else in their life. A lot of them are, you know, eating a very on tasty sandwich, right? Because they're just like, this isn't what I thought, right?

I sacrificed my family live, I sacrificed my 20s or my 30s, or whatever, and I didn't do anything. And I didn't put those moments in what the real equation is our experiences times a lot equals happiness, you know, if you can get that whoever gets the most experience is that it's a contest, but those are the people that feel good. And again, back to like the bankruptcy story. You don't lose them, right? You know, what your experiences good or bad years forever, you invest in them. And they also make you more valuable, generally speaking, because everybody you know, you're, you're so specialized, you can be replaced in a job, you can be less interesting in the social environment, etc. But the person that's, you know, done more things has more to talk about as more give us more perspective has more value as a person, both in their personal life and their social life and, and in their, their work life. So it's a it's a mind shift, I think it's suddenly a mind shift that people just once they see it. Oh, yeah, I knew that. But I'm glad I got reminded.

Nik Tarascio 

Phenomenal. And interestingly, my last question is somewhat answered by one of your processes. So I always ask people, what's their dream beyond? And I really think that's the treasure map question. Yeah. So for you what is what is the dream beyond what's the treasure map, this book, it's

Joe Huff 

funny this week, crazy as that might sound, this feels like my wife's very last immunotherapy was like two weeks ago, the books coming out in two weeks. And this feels like the beginning of, for lack of a better word, the rest of my life. This feels like my legacy kind of work. So for me, the dream is to build experiential billionaire as a message and as a brand and as a movement. Just over the course of the rest of my life, where I show my kids that you can do the things you want in life, you can write a book, you can inspire other people, you can make a positive change. And it's something that I think I can do forever because as I did, you know, physically less active, which sadly, I'm relatively sure happens, she can alter those are things that I can still I can hopefully still speak to people and share this message and share my stories and, and create a positive change. That's, that's my, my big dream is to try to affect as many people as possible.

Nik Tarascio 

Beautiful and sounds like that's a dream that's gonna come true in a big way. And we've only been speaking for 43 minutes and I'm so inspired by everything he said. So thank you for doing it, man. Thank you for sharing that.

Joe Huff 

I'm very very thankful to be I have a question for you though. So what what's if you what's on your your list on your treasure map? What are you What are you trying to achieve?

Nik Tarascio 

Great. I love a good turnaround by the way, I always know when I have a good guest and they're like, Wait, we're not done here. So yeah, I got a man to

Joe Huff 

help you achieve whatever your experiences are. We can do one together.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, that would be a lovely man. Oh, man. There's a lot of things that have come to me lately. i It sounds really reductive, but I want to give myself permission to be fully expressed and any medium I want to play in. And I think what that's really driven me to is I want to help people cultivate creativity.

Joe Huff 

That's awesome. I love it. And how would you see yourself doing that like creating tools or giving like actual direct standing,

Nik Tarascio 

I'm standing on that cliff right now of I don't know exactly what the media medium is. So I've been working with people on like, parts work and different modalities of healing. I do sound healing now in sound therapy. So I don't know what it is. But I know like in the next three months, I can feel that it's going to reveal itself as what the medium is I play in and I'm, I'm just putting that out there that if anyone has tools or practices for cultivating creativity within my dream has always been to write the perfect song and the perfect song is actually not me. It's it's without any distortion, allowing that source, that creativity, that muse to come through me. And knowing that it just, it happened in front of me, I want to be in a front row seat to letting that through. So that's been the dream is to spend the rest of my life moving. The ego, the distortions, the fear, what you just said, it's like, can you have the courage to actually speak what you know to be true without the fear of like, someone's gonna stab you and your most sensitive area when you're like, but this is what I believe. Don't say no, don't criticize don't troll me. Can I cultivate that confidence to be able to just to speak what feels true within me?

Joe Huff 

Oh, yeah, I think you can I think you're going to that's a really just thinking about it. That's the first step. You're already there. Right? So yeah, I mean, I know for a fact, people are going to come out and attack the book and the message and you know, there's going to be people, but I already know that people are going to it's going to resonate and change some lives. That's what matters, right? It matters, that you're doing that. So by just what you just shared, if you just start doing that. It only takes you know, the winds for you to forget about all the losses and maybe the song you'll come to realize the end is like the song has been all the songs that you've ever written all

Nik Tarascio 

that stuff. It's, it's my Bohemian Rhapsody, I gets that that's what it's like, the song is not chorus, you know, a chorus verse, chorus verse, it's more like it's just this crazy movement of all these different things that that is the dream. I don't think I ever wanted to have just the repeating pattern. So thank you for asking that. It's probably the first time I've verbalized it, and put it into words of like, yeah, that is what it is. It's about cultivating that source creativity and getting out of the way and seeing what comes through. Well, I

Joe Huff 

love it, man. It's beautiful. That's really cool. Thank

Nik Tarascio 

you. Thank you. This has been phenomenal. And I am excited to follow your journey. It is beautiful to reconnect. And thanks for sharing so much from your heart and doing what you do. And for anybody that is curious to stay on the journey with Joe as you could check out experiential billionaire.com or his personal website Joe huff.com. He's got some info on his keynotes and everything on there. And of course, go get the book experiential billionaire build a life rich and experiences and die with no regrets that's on his websites and Amazon as well. And if you want to get playful, which this may be a birthday gift to myself or the treasure maps Man that sounds super cool to car deck that can inspire you to do some really cool things with your life and, and just add more experiences to them. And you could get those again on Amazon or his website. So Joe, thank you so much for being here, man.

Joe Huff 

Thank you. It was really great to reconnect man. I'm looking forward to the next round.

Nik Tarascio 

Absolutely. Thank you for listening to the dream beyond. I hope that you receive whatever message or inspiration you were meant to get from today's episode. I had a great time recording it for you. If you love the show, please take 30 seconds to subscribe rate and review it that really helps get the word out. And if you want to connect with me, you can find me at

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[the-dream-beyond]

Lessons Learned: Takeaways From The First 18 Episodes

Nik Tarascio 

You could literally give it all away, and you will end up with more than you even know what to do with. And I've had that over the last year, I keep on telling myself that like when you go to the restaurant, and someone is like, yeah, I want to get the expensive thing. It's like we don't have that kind of money, we don't have that kind of money, we can't do that. And then I hear that voice that says, you'll always have enough, you'll always have enough. So this one's a different one. It's the first one I'm going to be speaking about my own experiences with all the different podcasts and what I've learned from it, kind of summarizing what's there. So if you're curious about some of the big nuggets, some of the gold nuggets that came out of it, feel free to check this one out. And it may inspire you to kind of know which episode you might be interested in. You enjoy.

Welcome to the dream beyond. I'm your host, Nik Tarascio. I'm a CEO, musician and overall seeker of Truth, inspiration and simply put, how to live the most fulfilling life possible. Growing up surrounded by extremely wealthy and successful people gave me unique and unfiltered perspectives of those who have seemingly made it that on the dream beyond, we're letting you in on what it really takes to achieve your dreams. What happens when it turns out your destination isn't the promised land, you are expecting how to process the lessons from your past while mapping, of course to true fulfillment. Let's get started.

Hey, everybody, welcome to the show today, the guest is me that's different. I don't normally do this, it feels weird. I actually don't know how people on YouTube do these hour long talk to the camera type things. So I will do my best to share my experience and hopefully in an interesting way. And I appreciate you being here. So I'm going to talk a bunch about how this podcast came to be what I've learned what the journey has been like. And let's get it kicked off. So I've wanted to do a podcast for quite some time. And I think the hardest piece of it for me is like well, there's a lot of stuff I like to talk about. Similar to Christina Wallace that we had on the show, I think I didn't even realize I was kind of like living the portfolio life and the portfolio career.

And so I always struggled with like what exactly what I'd be talking about, would it be an aviation thing? Would it be a music thing? What other random crap that I'm into would be the thing on the top of the list. So I ended up trying to get to the heart of like, what is that thing that I'm really after. And it really touched on the fact that I really struggled with fulfillment most of my life is that I'm definitely one of those people. I believe I've had more than I appreciated at any point in my life. And being surrounded by the people I've been surrounded with getting growing up in an aviation company, being around some of the most wealthy, successful influential people that were living in, you know, in the lap of luxury. I really wanted to touch on like, what what was missing for them? And if they don't feel fulfilled, how am I ever gonna feel fulfilled. So I've been chasing this external dream for most of my life.

And the way that the show came to be in the way that the name came about was, I remember when I was little, I had all these dreams of, oh, yeah, I want to have the big jet and a big house with 16 bedrooms or something stupid that was completely unnecessary. And you know, it's, yeah, mansions and all the fancy grounds on the North Shore of Long Island. And the home that has a you know, on a ski mountain somewhere, like when I when I was young, that was kind of the dream was all these silly, oh, I want to be a rock star. I want to be Axl Rose, it was all these things about like external stuff.

But I never had a single thing that was about who I would be as a person and how I would feel. And yet when I was really honest with myself, it was all about chasing a particular feeling. Right? It was I want to, I want to feel good, right? Like, on some level, I just want to feel good. And it's such a stupid word like, good, right? How are you doing? Good. But that's it like that was it for me is I just, I just want to feel good. And what does that really mean? How do I even define that? And I think for so many of us, it was like, oh, yeah, I have all these external things that that happened. And then I'll allow myself to feel good. So I was thinking about again, these were my early dreams.

And following those things, and having, you know, success and living all these amazing things and not feeling good yet. I was like, Well, I guess that's not really my dream then because my dream was not the stuff. It was the feeling and I didn't get it. So I think just getting a chance to talk to some people and hear people that have been on that arc of like, yeah, I got everything. I had the wife, the kids, the house, the jet, the business, everything. I looked amazing from the outside inside.

I just didn't want to be here. When I hear those people's stories and hear them go through that journey, and then find on the other side that it was actually the simple things in life. It was like a beautiful Tuesday. Right? It wasn't like a crazy vacation or anything fancy it was like just being with my family, being with my kids playing with my dog doing the work I do. eating the food. I like sitting outside, watching squirrels running around like when I heard those things. I was like, that's crazy. That seems so boring. But then it kind of started to make sense like they have a dream beyond so that was kind of the origin You know, but I know it's a little bit of a drawn out explanation.

But I really wanted the words to matter. And I am quite the perfectionist and I get really caught in loops about creative stuff. So the concept of that dream beyond was, I think it's something I really hold a lot. And I love asking people about that, which is like, alright, whether you lived your earliest dream or not, whether you got there not? What's the next one that you like the one you may not have even thought about it? And that to me, I think we just learned so much about a person when they answer that question of like, given everything you know, today, what is the thing that really matters to you?

Which is another way of asking that question. So I think I mean, I'm really proud of the title, I'm proud of the name of the show, I'm proud of what we've done. And mostly because I think I entered it. You know, first is like, why am I doing this? And a lot of times, I asked myself, I do a lot of things that I don't know why I do it. A lot of times, I just run ahead, and I'm like, I just similarly like, I feel like I want to do this, it's never. And that's a foreign thing. For me, it's like, it just makes me happy. It makes me feel good. Or for some of you, artists and creatives out there, you almost feel like you have to throw up like you almost need to vomit something out of yourself. I think if I don't create this thing, it's going to destroy me from the inside. And in many ways, it was like I have this desire to tell stories, I have this desire to share things.

But I also didn't want to be the center of attention, which is why this is such a weird show. For me. It's weird for me to be the center of attention. In fact, I have a lot of impostor syndrome that comes up. It's like, What the hell do I know? I just interviewed people that do cool shit. So I appreciate you listening. If you're still listening, I haven't gotten bored by what I'm sharing. And just know that this is a really big transition moment. For me. It's a hard thing. In fact, I was asked when I first launched the podcast, I was told this was supposed to be the first episode was me talking about my life and who I am and why the dream beyond and I scrapped it. '

And I said, no freakin way is it going to be about me on the first launch, I feel so self indulgent. But here we are, I don't even know how many episodes in it's been quite a pipe more than I honestly thought I'd ever do. And I thought this might be a cool time to reflect on it, and kind of talk about some of the people I've met along the way. And I'm just gonna riff with that a little bit. So I'm going to quickly go through the list and talk about what I took from some of the more impactful things that I heard. And it was really awesome. Actually, I'll talk about how I even started the podcast because I knew I wanted to do it. I was like, Why the hell would anyone say yes to me, I don't have this massive audience. I don't have any claim or fame or anything like that. And I was at an event on the Intrepid. And the speaker at this event was a guy named Chris Strickland, who is the first episode I ever did.

And he spoke about his experience of ejecting out of F 16. He wasn't supposed to survive and all this crazy stuff he went through. And man Oh, man, I was nervous when I went up to him. And I said, I know this is crazy. I'm a pilot, but like, you know, we have a lot in common trying to like figure out a way to build some rapport. I just said, Would you be open to potentially doing my first podcast, I'm looking for someone to do it. And it's, I run an aviation company. And I just think your story would be amazing for people to hear. And thank God for Chris.

He also believes in doing things that matter and doing things that are meaningful, less than just optimizing for like, for the street's biggest money returned, like all that stuff. And so he took a gamble on me and really kind of coached me through it was like, I'll make sure you get through it. And this guy had media training from the Air Force he's he knows what's up. So it was really valuable for me to have that experience and have someone who took a gamble on me by the way my fiancee just walked into try to give me a lemonade. I think this is the best episode ever. We are we are just crushing it right now on my solo show.

So yeah, was very sweet. I looked over to her with like, daggers in my hands, like, why are you walking in in the middle of this episode? See, I think that I got really lucky. And on some level, I do attribute a lot a lot to luck. And I attribute the show to someone like Chris, I mean, really, it's it's kind of getting to like what is success in your own terms. That's one of the things he talked about. And he talked about his creative process when when when writing his books, and dealing with trauma and triggers. And it was like the perfect person for me to start with. So I'm so grateful that I had that at the beginning.

From there, I got to talk to Mark Moses, he runs co Coaching International. And, you know, he really got into this idea that like, you actually can do anything you want, if you could get out of the way of your own belief. And I know it's like so like, soft and Frou Frou to hear that it's like, come on, really? What is this a Disney movie, you just have to believe and then it works. But the other side to look at it is if you don't believe it's gonna happen. It's 100% not going to happen like 100% There's no freakin way you're ever going to do it. Right? And so I think that Mark really touched on that idea of whether you're delusional or not doesn't matter. If you believe it's possible at least you're going to be in the game, at least you're going to have a chance of it happening. If you think it's never going to happen. You're just limiting yourself and that's the end of the story. So I really enjoyed that with Mark

Chip Conley What an interesting dude. I was fortunate to go down and check out chips modern elder Academy and this is a guy who's been an advisor for Airbnb. He was big in the hospitality world. And it just like, you know, talked about having a heart attack or, you know, like going through all these experiences where he almost I actually I think he told We've had someone else who had a heart attack, I can't remember exactly what his medical issue was, but he had almost died. And he talks about kind of coming back from that experience and reframing what really matters. And for him like fulfillment is obviously a lot of what drives him and what he built in Mexico. I think they have a location in Santa Fe, as well as really this space of when you're navigating transitions in your life.

Most people have never told you how to do it. And it's terrifying. Like, we think like, I want to go and be a millionaire. That's a transition, right? I'm broke, I want to be a millionaire, you got to go through a transition, and are like, Hey, I'm gonna get divorced. And I need to go through that transition, or, Oh, man, I just lost my job. And I need to go through that transition. We're never really schooled on how to do that stuff. No one gives us those tools. And so many of us, I think, have this again, Disney movie perspective of like, it's going to be so amazing when my life changes. And it's like, yeah, it will be amazing. When you're there, it's gonna suck getting there, though, bringing all that baggage, like having a part of you that has to die, so that a new part of you can be born. So I really appreciate kind of hearing what Chip was up to.

And this idea of like, what they're doing is alchemy. It's really cool to see what they're doing. And again, it's like, you know, this idea that people get old, and then they're useless, and you just put them out to pasture. It's insane. And that's why I think what Chip was really talking to is, we're living longer, we have a longer health span, we're not just going to sit in homes and rot and watch bullshit TV, we want to do stuff we want to help, we want to share what we know. So I really love what he's trying to do to help people have a much richer life on the back half. John leaving my buddy John. John is a maniac I love him and hearing him kind of talk about in so many ways that like really broke me down, when he started talking about how lonely people are, and how much we crave that connection. And this inverse relationship between money and community that we are designed, we are wired, we are fundamentally emotionally designed to connect, I get it. I've heard all the stories. I understand why church communities exist.

And I've, I've rationally grasped the idea. But when John was talking about it, and he was just telling me how deeply alone we feel how upset we are and how it's almost like, the more alone we feel, the more we chase that success, the more we're like, if I could just do more, then people will want me if I could just have the bigger platform like then I'll be the person on stage that everybody wants. But the reality is that it's almost like the more successful we get, the smaller the connection is like the the less people can have access to us was just so damn busy all the time, we're burnt out, which we did speak about what Britney as well, when we talked about managing burnout. So it's, again, John, I always thought I was like this rational thinker, but to meet his emotional side and hear him really talk about He's like, he's a new dad.

And it's like just a move by him as a person bringing these big ideas to companies about like, how do we really create connection within an organization? How do we do this stuff that matters and not lose sense of, it's not just a big p&l. It's actually a group of people all working in a shared goal and trying to have a space where they also feel good. Going on to Elliott. Elliott is now is like, probably one of the most impactful people in my life. And he founded Summit Series and summit really was kind of when my life started looks like the first time I live I found my tribe. I love what Elliot said in many ways. He kind of Blessed what I had chosen to do, because I'm like, Why do I do this podcast thing?

Like is this really the best use of my time? And when he said you should just live like You're like you have a podcast, no matter where you are. Just ask people questions, talk less, ask a lot of questions. And again, that is such a great reminder. For someone especially like me, who feels like I my value is by being the smartest person in the room, like I have to be there like giving answers and acting like I know what I'm supposed to be doing all the time. And instead, someone like Elliott is like, actually, you don't have to know anything really, you could just sit and ask really powerful questions and people feel seen and they feel cared for.

And that's what true connection comes from it starts to create the foundations for intimacy. And again, what he's done in building the the entire summit community, along with the whole team, that's there has been the most profound shift in my life, I would almost say that I've figured out who I was because of the summit community because I was like, I don't like that I do like this. There's all these new things I've never heard of. And just in resonance with people that I would have never imagined spending time with, I really found out who I really was. So really, really great episode and again, super grateful for his friendship, John David, man. Wow, the Go Giver. I've felt pretty selfish most of my life. And it's something that I actually would shame myself for. Because like, I want to give more I hear about all these people. I have so many friends, especially from the summit community.

We're out there like we're building these things that are helping starving people in Africa and we're gonna affect a billion lives in a positive way. I spent most of my life in survival mode, like I truly have been like there's just so little that I can give to others without feeling depleted or without risk. venting, I don't know if any of you experienced that, where you're like, I really love this person, and I want to take care of them. But I resent them. Because now I have to do shit for them all the time. And if any guys have pets, or kids or partners or any other humans in your life, basically, right, like we all, if our systems working, we really want to take care of those that we love.

But we're generally so I'm bad at boundaries. And we're so bad at like creating those relationships of like, look, I love you, but I can't give you that right now. Because if I really did do that, I'd be like, shame on me for not having the energy to give more my love John's book, The Go Giver was such a simple and powerful reminder of honestly, there's nothing else to do. There's nothing else to do if you just show up and service of other people and take care of all their needs. Not only will you get that feeling, I've been chasing the feeling good thing. But it's actually what businesses do. Like that's it's so funny. I'm like, how do you make a million dollars to help everybody? How do you make a billion dollars help a lot more people than that? Right? How do you make way more billions than that? I actually don't know the answer to that.

But I really do believe that fundamentally, we do villainize a lot of how wealth is generated. But at the very fundamental, when it works well, when it's done, right. If you help millions and millions of people make a little change in their life, let's say each of those millions of people gives you $1, you have millions of dollars. If you help one person make a major shift in their life, maybe one person gives you $100,000, right. So just do the math, you want to help 20 People have major shifts in their life, maybe that's $2 million, you want to help 2 million people make a small shift, maybe that's also $2 million. And this idea of like, if you truly are just a person who just keeps giving and giving and giving.

And you're giving from a place of love, not a place of obligation, not a place of fear, which again, is why I think I was so resentful. I'm also getting out of obligation or not wanting to feel my own shame, when I'm truly giving from love. I don't know if you've all experienced this, but it actually energizes you. Like I've had times where it's like, oh my god, the dog wants me to take them out. I'm just in like that moment of falling asleep. I really don't want to deal with this shit. But then I take them out. And honestly, I feel really good. Like when he looks up at me on the way up the elevator on the way back. And it's just like, Thanks, dad. Like, there's something really, really beautiful about that.

And I think that in many ways, the biggest lesson I took from this that played out in other ways is the inverse of that. I'm not good at receiving. That's why I was so bad at giving because I couldn't even receive the gift. So I'd spent all this time feeling like I was depleting myself giving myself away. And yet in reality, of course, I was never feeling full. Because even when people showed up in service of me, my parents, my siblings, the company, my friends, my partner, even the dog, right the dog was sometimes knowing I'm upset and come cuddle with me. Even when people I love would show up in service of me I couldn't even take it in. So as all my doing right, I was giving out of obligation and I wasn't willing to receive. So I think that what I took from that book as well, the concept of the Go Giver was that when you're the giver, when you are the one giving the gift, you actually win twice, right?

Because you actually get to bring joy to someone else that you care for, which there's truly nothing better, right? Like if our mirror neurons are working and our emotional systems are all working right when you give something to someone you care for. And you watch their true sense of like, oh my God, thank you, I really appreciate this. I see, I feel your care in your action. Not only do you get that joy, but then you also actually feel really good inside of yourself, right? It's not just seeing that you helped someone that you love. But you also get that kickback. And more and more I realized that when I feel like shit, I just need to go do something nice for someone I care about. And it's like it's better than I mean, I've never taken Prozac. I'm assuming that's what that's for. But I think it's like the natural Prozac. It's like go to the gym and give something to someone you care about those two things. I feel like really push us forward to the Go Giver is such a powerful tool.

And it requires something that I think is also really important to mention is it requires trust and and a sense of like, there will always be enough for me. And that's also I think I really struggled coming into this this last year. And because of a lot of these podcasts, that's been a really beautiful shift in my own mind is I had a lot of scares around money grew up, you know, we always struggled in the business and we were middle class around a very wealthy people. And so I always had this sense of like, we have to save our way into wealth, which isn't how money works. By the way, you just can't ever save enough to become wealthy, you could save a little bit like have a decent nest egg.

But in reality, if you want to create real money, real wealth, a real business, you got to spend stuff. And so most of my life was like conserve, conserve, conserve, spend less simplify, reduce the amount of burden on my life financially. And the big mindset shift for me over the last year has been like, I don't even I don't like that feeling. I never liked it. They are cool. We saved $1,000 Who gives a shit it's not going to change my life in any meaningful way. You could literally give it all away and you will end up with more than you even know what to do with. And I've had that over the last year I keep on telling myself that like when you go to the Restaurant. And someone is like, yeah, I want to get the expensive thing. It's like, we don't have that kind of money, we don't have that kind of money, we can't do that.

And then I hear that voice that says, you'll always have enough, you'll always have enough. It doesn't say you're going to be stupidly wealthy. It doesn't say any of that shit. It just says, you'll always have enough. And I think what I take that to mean is for what really matters when it comes to the joy, the love, that like feeling of feeling good inside of you, you'll always have enough to have access to that feeling. All the other stuff is bullshit. And I think that's kind of the point I take from the Go Giver is we invent all these reasons that we can't be giving. And they're all bullshit. I'm so moved by that book. And I really hope that if you haven't listened to that podcast, I hope you find your way to it.

Justin, Donald, Justin, such a cool guy. And I love anybody that really knows themselves to the level that he knew himself, which is like, yeah, I don't really want to like do a lot of work stuff, I really would be more interested in building a life that has that richness of family and richness of being there to watch my kids grow up. And not only that, like, let me help other people do that, too. I think that most of us get caught up in a system and get caught in the wheel. And we end up getting run over by the things that yeah, like, we're going to work to make money. But then it's like, it kind of controls us the other way, which is like, actually, I've given my entire life a way to work, and I missed all the life part. So I really love what Justin is teaching people is like, how do you create some of that passive income, so that you can do more of the things you want. And by the way, Justin's point isn't like just to go and do nothing, right? It's not like make a bunch of money, and then sit and do nothing and say, No, make a bunch of money.

So that money's not in the conversation. When you think about what you actually want to do with your life. You can remove that as as what it is. And again, for some people, it's like, I love my job, I work my ass off, I get paid well, great. I support that too. I really love though his message again, it's like rich is not having a lot of sorry, Rich is having a lot of money. Wealth is having a lot of time, right. So like he's he's really defining it as like, Don't chase the money piece, find ways to have more time in your life. If that requires lots of money, and then figure that out, too. But, you know, again, it's like breaking that trap of consumerism, finding what really real financial freedom is and changing the relationship to money, which is the number one reason people get divorced is money. Right? It's the most taboo thing. You could talk about religion, politics, sex, anything you could talk about just about anything in America, what you can't talk about is money. You can't go to a party say how much money do you have in the bank? Huh? How much money do you make every year? It's like the biggest taboo subject.

So I think Justin is really helping people shift their relationship in that way. And it was again, I don't think anybody's saying anything earth shattering here. There's no like, well, I've never thought of that before. It's like these are all reminders. And I think that's also an important thing to realize is this show is never meant to make you feel small or less than or like you have so much more to learn. It was actually more here to say like you already know this stuff. You fundamentally know it, we just forget, right? We forget. We knew it. When we were little kids, we knew it when we would like play with other kids and share our food, and not get caught up in all the bullshit that we do. It's like we were good people, we all start out as good people, and then we forget all this stuff.

And so I think this podcast was really a chance of saying like, you already know this, let's just, let's just get a little kick in the ass to say, here's who you really are. And I think Justin does that a lot of ways, which is like, you know, money's not the most important thing. But so many of us live that life that way. And I use them I have somehow turned into a spiritual asshole. I don't know how that happened. I talked about it on the show. You know, I went from my Catholic upbringing to being an angry atheist to being a tepid, agnostic. And then winding up, like, alright, I'll be like, spiritually agnostic, which is like, I'm kind of secretly spiritual, but I'm gonna say agnostic, so that I don't get made fun of.

And then it got more and more spiritual. And then I started to notice that I was just lying to myself about how spiritual I really am. And Anna, in many ways, gave me permission to realize like, Well, if the name of the game is feeling good sign science would suggest psychology, which would suggest and statistics would suggest that spiritual people and people that believe that there's something outside of themselves are happier people, on average. So knowing that my goal was to feel happy, it is in my best interest to find some sort of spiritual connection. So here's what I'd say, if you don't agree with it. Fine. I'm okay with that, too. I hope you find something I hope you're just happy in whatever experience you have. My goal was never to spread the message of spirituality to anyone they're supposed to believe what I believe to that end if you're not happy, and you don't believe in anything. Maybe just consider that finding something outside of yourself. Whatever it is, make it up. I don't care. Make make make a fake thing. Like one of the most powerful things someone said to me.

I was 27 years old, and I was getting a massage at Massage Envy of all places. Like this is a dumping massage place. Sorry, massaging me. I'll never get a sponsorship from them, but I'm not seeking money anyway, so it doesn't matter. But it was like you know, it's not Don't be that's not fair. It is mid tier at best. It is a mid tier. It's the chipotle of muscle. washers when I was there, I was really lucky to have this guy Rocco, who was this like little old Italian man with these just brick hands that would just drive his fingers right through me. And I was talking to him about spirituality and stuff like that. And he said to me, you never need to apologize for creating the myth of your own life. I really sat with that, like, What the hell does that even mean? And as I've gotten older, I've realized that no one knows right? Like, nobody knows anyone that tells you that they know they're full of shit.

They're absolutely foolish it. We all have ideas, we all think, you know, like, there could be this, and I choose to believe it's this. But if someone tells you like, this is definitely what it is bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, ignore them. If they're in your family, don't ignore them, maybe just look the other way around that topic. But I think that anyone that absolutely thinks that they know is kind of missing the point. And it's, it's inappropriate for any of us to go around shaming someone for their belief system, right? Unless, if you have a belief system that says like, I could go around murdering people, like maybe we should talk about that belief system, if you're hurting other people with what you believe, I'm going to disclaim the shit out of that and say that's not acceptable. But if you're not hurting anybody, and you believe whatever you want to believe, great, great, you should be allowed to believe that. And that was why I think Rocco's feedback was so important for me because I had been so afraid of disappointing people with what I believe in, like having people shame or judge me for like, you asshole. Like, don't you only believe in science?

Like, how could you believe in spirituality? How can you believe you go anywhere when you die? I was always afraid of that criticism and judgment. But that's like that was the permission of Rocco. And so it's like, emotionally, he gave me that permission. But then Anna kind of sealed the deal for me and said, like, look, science would suggest this is in your best interest. Right? It's in your best interest to believe in something. And the fact that Anna's taking it to the next level, and really trying to figure out like, what is that connection between spirituality and mental health? And so, yeah, I'm really grateful for that conversation. And as I'm talking, I'm like, basically, this podcast is building Nic, like, I should have just call it called it like constructing NIC. Because this is really what it's turned into. It's like, I basically have asked people questions about the shit that I really struggle with. And they give me these amazing answers. And I'm so much better off for it.

And then I hopefully have people listen as a fly on the wall and learn something from it. So yeah, I'm a lucky person. The next person I spoke to was Conor Beaton. Again, Connor is like a, like, just a cool, dude. A lot of times I see speakers that talk on a topic and I'm like, I don't care because I'd never want to be you. Right? You're like, I don't know what, like you'll see like a fitness coach, or you're like, you don't look good, though. You don't look like you take care of your body. Or, you know, again, it's like, it'd be like getting a style consultant who dresses like shit. Like Connor is living it. And he's like, do you just like a cool dude, he's like, a, like, he's like the, he's the masculine if it was truly the evolved masculine, and he's got so much heart, and He's so calm and compassionate, and able to show up with his handout for people that are, you know, for men that are really struggling, they're really in a dark space.

And I mean, man with him. I just love more than anything. I don't know if this was a meta message, or if you actually shared this is I grew up with a concept that I think most of us grew up with masculinity is like, masculinity is the hard shell. It's the I don't cry. You know, it's the pat on the back. Like, you're okay, right? You're doing good, right? Instead of saying, like, how are you feeling? How are you feeling right now? It's the it's the shaming, the emotion. It's the shaming anything other than anger, anger is totally fine, right? As like a as like a dudes, dude, you could run around being pissed off all the time.

But it was interesting to hear Connor kind of talking from such a deep level of vulnerability and the stories he shared in his book, it's like, Oh, my God, how did you put that out there and not just crawl under a rock. And I think that is the invitation of that is all that shit that we're so afraid someone would know about us, is exactly where we need to be. Right? It's exactly where we need to be, especially as men. And if you're, if you're a woman who's trying to support a man, it's that too. It's that reminder of like, you know, it's okay. It's okay. Like, I understand you're angry, but I want to know what you feel underneath that. And I just recently read Brene Brown's view on anger.

And she has this argument that anger is a secondary emotion. It's not a core emotion. And we define anger as a core emotion. And she even says, a lot of a lot of the Experts disagree with her. But, you know, I gotta say, looking at what she said, I kind of happen to agree with her is anger is the indicator of a deeper emotional experience that's going on that we're not willing to face. And that is absolutely true. For me, it's it's, I'm pissed off because whatever was a bad year, right? Like, we had a bad year in the company, blah, blah, blah. So I'm pissed off, and I'm angry. I'm gonna go throwing shit all over the place, but really what it is, I'm afraid, and that's the thing that's not safe to say.

And I really like that Conor just being Connor inspires us as men. To say more of that stuff is like, Yeah, I'm afraid. I'm scared. And I know I'm supposed to have this idea in my head from the way I was raised that like, What woman would want to be with a guy who says he's scared or less than or Be careful, don't women want this like alpha jock asshole who has no emotions outwardly and just like I got you, no matter what happens, and I'll beat the shit out of anyone that comes near you. Like, that's always the idea that I think many of us were were raised on. And I know Hollywood didn't help with that at all.

But again, that's what I really appreciate about Connor was we have a lot of rewiring what our early concept of manhood are, and turning it into what real manhood looks like what real masculinity is. So, man, glad he's doing the work. And just glad to know people like that. Bill donemus is the next one, I got to speak to the next person. And Bill has become a very significant figure in my life in a strange way. It's like, I'd met him years ago, at a conference where he was teaching people how to write with their left hand basically, or their non dominant hand, because for you lefties, I know it's the other side. And I think it's cool. It's a cool tool, it's a cool tool to like, unlock creativity, or to basically get past your on filter, right? A lot of times, especially on the creative, the creative process, if we're really frustrated, it's often we're frustrated, because we're filtering as we're trying to create.

We're like, this is stupid, that's dumb, this isn't good, no one like that. And it's like, no wonder why nothing's coming out. And so we get stuck. And we get these creative blocks. Bills process is really powerful for just without even realizing how you just bypass all that stuff, like I was gonna start moving my hand on the page and see what comes out. Now, again, super cool. I love that I actually got to go to chips, modern elder Academy to see Bill do this for days we got to go through it was like a whole course. And he taught us a lot about it. But what I didn't expect out of this is, you know, again, people have a journaling the importance of journaling on a daily basis. And when you journal and you kind of free flow your journaling, you get to learn a lot about yourself.

Well, I started using this process where I would journal with my right hand, then I switched to my left hand. And it was insane, I started to see conversations happening between different parts of myself. And if I can't like it probably sounds on the surface, like you're out of your freakin mind, and you have multiple personality disorder. For what it's worth, and this will be a future episode, we're gonna get into parts work internal family systems, like it's an incredibly important modality of therapy. And the reason why I'll say you're not crazy as a person when you do this is our brains are parallel processors. So we don't process linear information that way, if you think about it, we learn that in different contexts, we need to be different people, right?

So if you've ever noticed, like, when I'm with my mom, I'm different. When I'm with my brother, I'm different. When I'm at work, I'm a different person. And it's not like we're trying to be different, our brains actually just do different things, because they are parallel processors that learn in different contexts. So what I didn't realize is by doing this, right hand, left hand writing, was that I actually got to meet my different processes I got to meet, I got to see my parallel processor. And I actually got to have conversations between different parts of myself. And that allowed me to almost support myself in a way like none of that I have to go to therapy or get a coach or have someone say, like, did you hear when you did that? Like, No, I didn't even notice I said those words.

Now I'm doing it between my hands now I'm literally doing it by myself in a way that was really cool. And so I would honestly say that of almost every process I've tried, this has actually become part of my daily practice every day, I do left hand writing. And I've found out stuff about myself that I could not even imagine. So like as an example, I would write something like, Hey, I woke up kind of feeling off today. And I don't know why. And I'm sure you've all experienced this right? You wake up, you're like, Was it a dream? Did I not sleep? Well that I eat shitty food last night? I don't know what it is. But I feel off. And I don't know what that is like, right? With my, with my right hand. Hey, I'm feeling a little bit off. And I don't really know what to do about that.

Can you offer me any wisdom on it, then I literally just switch the switch hands. And without thinking I just start moving the hand. And it'll tell me some deep shit. It'd be like, well, there was a comment that was made yesterday. And that really upset you? Like, do you even recall that? Like, I switch the other hand? No, I actually don't recall that. What was it about that that was so upsetting. Switch back to the left hand. And it's like, what was upsetting because it actually scared the shit out of you again. And it's like, I'm not usually willing to go down to that that level. And so I found that by writing with the other hand, it actually allowed me to bypass that that masculine shield, right, and maybe on some level, as I'm talking to, there's almost this crazy wisdom in the order of the podcast. But it was like, Connor showed me that I have this incredible shell that's like, I can't go inside that vulnerable core, God forbid.

And then Bill, on the other hand, showed me how to get in there and how to get in there. And it's almost like, like, like a sneaky fuck, like, you're like, I'm gonna sneak past all the all the like cameras and alarm systems. I'm gonna get right into the core. And I'm gonna watch it right out on the page in front of me. Like, whoa, that's pretty amazing. So, again, Bill's methodology, Bill's practices like I highly, highly encourage people to look at the work he's doing. None of it's that complicated. That's what I love that all these nothing anyone shared on the podcast is all that complicated. It's pretty simple stuff. Literally.

It's just switching hands with your pen and trying to see if you get out of your own way. And just write without thinking like move make scribbles. If you're curious about it again, like check out the episode. Check out his work. It's really great stuff. onto that we went we ended up with Peter showered and Peter is Literally like one of my dearest friends inside circle, someone that has shown up for me, like, you know, like the kind of friends that would sit you down and have an intervention like that's, that's the kind of friend Peter as he'd be like, Hey, dude, you're fucking your life up and like says it in the most loving way. And don't worry, it wasn't like a drug intervention, it wasn't like a drinking intervention, it was just like a headache, you really struggle in intimacy. And I want to point that out to you, I want to, I want to point out to you that you're someone who really is afraid of, you're afraid of losing yourself in relationship to another person.

So that's why Peter like Peter really knows me. He's super on the inside circle. And I never know what Peter and I are going to talk about this episode is really was really fun for me, because Peter is one of the truly one of the smartest people I know, it's like, you know, when you have someone in your life that no matter what you say, they can offer something of value, but not even something of value, something that's like, on page 34 of this book by this author you've never heard about there was actually this comment that speaks exactly to the thing that you're talking about. I'm like, Peter, what the hell's wrong with your mind? Like, how do you have all that shit in there, and then still, like, have a loving family and like show up with high emotional intelligence. It's a really, he's the most confusing person I know he's, he should not exist as a human. And that episode was fun for me, because we really talked about the permission to make mistakes.

And I think that that entrepreneurship concept of like, I don't want to climb the wrong ladder, and him saying like, well, actually, you should just climb the ladder, I don't care what ladder is just climb the damn ladder, because when you get to the top of it, it'll be a different ladder, you can climb, if you just stay here, you're only gonna have the same shitty ladders in front of you. So that episode was really great. It was really just the permission to, we're gonna make a lot of mistakes. And that's fine. But it's not really a mistake if you learn from it. And when you look at your life backwards, like this, I think was the real meta blessing of what what Peter was saying, from any point you are, if you just stop, and you turn around, you'll realize your life is this perfect tapestry of climbing the most random ladders.

And therefore, they were all pretty damn great in their own way. They were all the ladder you needed to be on. And again, there's a lot of other stuff he spoke about in the episode, but that's the thing I really took away from it is Yes, super confusing going forward. It makes no goddamn sense. Like, I have no idea. When I look at my life going forward. I'm like, how the hell is this happening? Or how did I get here? Or why is this the shit that's coming up right now? Or why? Why did I break my knee in 2019. Like all these things made no sense. But when I look backwards, a great example is my knee. When I broke my knee, I look backwards on it. And I at the time, I had put myself into Krav Maga.

So I could overcome that feeling of like I got bullied as a kid. I want to feel what it's like to be a man in my body. I want to know what it's like to feel like I could protect myself and the people I love that I wouldn't just like pee myself if someone tried to attack me, which by the way is what happens if someone pulls a gun on you. Apparently, I thought about I think I'm gonna do this thing. It was great. And it was the best shape I've ever gotten in my life. It was I was at the point where I was doing like ropes, courses, and all these crazy things. And I felt like, wow, I'm a machine and I'm a warrior and people are afraid of me.

And the worst part of it all was that I didn't do it out of self love, I was actually self abusing my way into shape. It was like, I'll finally be lovable enough. If I had a six pack, I'll finally be lovable enough if I could swing with one arm, or if I could, you know not feel afraid when someone is, you know, physically threatening me. And I'm almost so glad when I think about it, it was almost so perfect that I broke my knee. Because I started to over identify that I am my physical self. And when I broke my knee, I was like, Well, I'm more than my broken knee. I'm more than the person who has to sit on the couch all the time and has to be like ushered around and needs the help of other people. So yeah, it How the hell does this work? So well, Grant Corrigan was next. In many ways. I didn't even realize I was teeing that up. So grant Corgan is the lesson of what my knee was. And I never made that connection before. It was a tough one for me. And it was a tough one for I think anyone listening to it, Grant story. And please go listen to the whole thing again. I mean, my encouragement is, I'm sharing what I took from these things, but the depth and the nuance of what they shared is so powerful. Grant was like the guy who had everything like good looking dude, doing crazy stunts, like just Master of the Universe, breaks his spine loses his ability to move from his from his waist down.

And this idea of like, he kept on saying, like, will, will suffer until we get the lesson that's coming for us. And I think that was the point of my knee. And I asked grant, like, what is the lesson you're avoiding, before you paralyzed, paralyzed yourself essentially, like paralyzed from from the fall, he said, I wasn't willing to receive the help of others. I literally had to be bedridden and incapable of moving to learn to receive the help of others. And on some level, that was my knee for me, too. It was like I I had over identified as like, because I'm now stronger than I was. And because I now look better than I did before. Somehow I think I'm better. But man, that is just setting someone up for failure because it's like, I don't know if you remember how the back of life goes, but it's us falling apart slowly. It's like watching our skin start to do funny. gangs and we can't do the things we used to do.

And so like, in many ways, it's like such a gift to get the lesson. Instead of slowly suffering the fear of death and trying to stop the aging process. I think that's really what I took from Grant was like, in order to live well, you have to know how to die well, in some crazy way and right and like we're not dead. But a part of us dies constantly. There's moments in life, there's those transition points, going back to the whole modern elder Academy, kind of these, these these transition points where if we don't die, well, in those moments, we suffer that transition way longer than we need to. And I think that's what grant showed is like he got in a lesson that I hope none of us ever have to experience to learn that lesson of receiving help or whatever lessons trying to come for you that you're not willing to open the door for. And in many ways that that was the blessing of my knee, as well as 18 months of losing a sense of my ability to be autonomous and move and needing people to bring food and do all this crap.

But yeah, great lesson, looking backwards. So again, talking about closing the loop on Peter and talking about Grant amazing episodes. Wow, there's so many other ones that I know I'm going really long. So we may have to make this a two parter. But I also want to say thank you to Ashley, who's been helping produce the whole damn thing and put it all together and coordinate my life and the podcasts and just everything. She's literally sitting watching me as I do this, because I realized I couldn't do it by myself. So Ashley, thank you for being the audience of one. That gives me all the juice to do this stuff.

So the next episode was Christine Meier, who I met years and years ago, and like the standout moment, when I met Christine was we were in like a CVS or something like that in Sedona, Arizona, spiritual vortex capital of the world. And we were in the CVS and we ended up being like, we found a whoopee cushion. And we were like, she's like this amazing, mature adult, and I'm not. And so like, we're just sitting there like, making fart sounds with the whoopee cushions. And it just became like this bonding moment of like, I love that she doesn't take life.

So seriously, it was such a good reminder of like, Don't take it so serious. It's only as hard as you make it. And that is like truly the essence of I think what Christine gave me in that episode, and just in who she is, as a person again, is like, why are you so attached to making life so hard? And what are you getting out of that? And when you realize that are definitely when I realized that I was so attached to the idea of life being hard because it's somehow justified my path. If life was easy, then I had to actually grieve the fact that I just overcomplicated everything. So I'd fight her tooth and nail like, life's not that easy. If we have an upcoming episode, that's going to be the follow up to that with her. Yeah, it's just like, life can't be that easy.

And it's like, Alright, fine. Like, I'm not gonna argue with you go and go and keep doing that. Like, if you want it to be hard, that's fine. The other thing that I think she really like, I actually got emails about this, I got messages from people about this. My question which was so misguided in hindsight, was, hey, so how do you learn to be with the discomfort of desire? How do you learn to be with the the pain of wanting things that you don't have? And I'm expecting some like process for learning how to like, Yeah, this is how you hold that discomfort. And she just like, hit me with the most unexpected response of, well, you shouldn't feel discomfort from wanting and you shouldn't have any negative experience of desire that would suggest that there's something else going on there for you. Like it was like, Ah, shit, I shouldn't have even brought this up. Like why did I bring this up?

Now I have to process this hard reality that I don't allow myself to want without shaming myself for it without like, there's always this other voice. We talked about parallel processing, like the internal family systems stuff. One part of me says like, I would really like this thing and another voice inside my head goes You ungrateful piece of shit. Like how dare you How dare you want this? Like, you should be grateful for what you have. Why do you need more? And it was hard to hear that it was hard to process that like, I mean, again, Christine would not encourage me to be so hard on myself and nor do I want to be and nor am I that hard on myself. I'm being a little bit facetious. But it's real. It's real that there's this I want and I immediately shame that desire.

I immediately have this like, am I ungrateful? Like there's people that have so much less than I do? How could I dare want anything more than that? And I think that that's something we need to give ourselves a lot of permission for which is that we all have our experiences right? We all have our experiences we all have our station in life we all have whatever journey we've been on and so often like it would be a losing game in hindsight to say the only person who can feel like they have enough is the one with the least in the entire world because everyone else there's someone who has less than you like it's just doesn't make sense. I do think that there's something to that for a lot of people and I got quite a few messages from from others saying like that is such an unlock I have not allowed myself to have desire and want which tees up the next person who is the perfect person to talk about desire and want which is Jaya Jaya is episode was the scariest I talked about in the episode. It is absolutely still probably the scariest episode I've put out.

I kind of knocked it out of my mind. So even now, as I'm like looking at some of the old notes, I'm like, oh my god, that is so terrifying. And I've had people mentioned it to me like, oh, you remember when you said this in the giant episode, I'm like, Oh God, no, no, no, no, no, she is helping people overcome so much trauma in so many ways. And the way that she views life is like, it's supposed to feel good, right? Like, truly, if you know, I was searching for like, I want to feel good, then you have a person who's like, you know, it's all supposed to feel good.

The whole damn thing. It's all here for you. It's all the fruits for you to enjoy. And not in like a hedonistic way. And that's, I think, partly where, like, I had this part of me again, like, I want life to feel good. I want to chase feeling good. And the counter arguments always like, well, then you're just gonna end up on a hedonic treadmill. It's just gonna be more more and more just start doing cocaine then until you drive yourself into the ground, because that's that endless, seeking more and trying to like keep dopamine, dopamine, dopamine. I really liked that her perspective is like no, like it all should feel good. Even not doing should feel good. Doing nothing should feel good. And of course, like the sex topic, it's like, Ah, no, I talk about that. That triggers all my Catholic upbringing guilt.

Yeah, I just love that she stands for and I mean, the courage it takes for a woman to come out knowing about like all the slut shaming that goes on in the world is like, God forbid, you're a woman who's pro sex. And then it's like, we're going to talk about all this negative stuff and shame you and try to attack you. And she's like, I don't give a shit. This is my calling. I'm gonna go out there and make sure that everyone knows that they are allowed to feel good in their body. In fact, that's the whole freaking point. Like we said before, if giving like going back to the Go Giver of giving doesn't feel good, something's wrong. Something's wrong. Someone told you something that isn't true. Someone maybe did something to you. That is not right. And so Jaya is not just saying like, go do things that feel good. It's like also face the darkness, face the trauma, move through those things.

Make your system work, you should feel good in your body. And that's really what this is about. And again, I her concept of sex is not just like the physical like I want an orgasm. That's not what this is about. It's about you should feel pleasure in your body no matter what the hell you you're actually doing. If you're working, playing sleeping, laying in a bathtub. I feel like I just turned into a Dr. Seuss, Ron, but I love it. And I hope to hold gyres concepts more in my heart. My god, there's been a lot of episodes, Divya is really speaking on a topic that I've been really curious about for a long time. And I grew up with a lot of autoimmune stuff, a lot of digestive issues. So it's been really hard for me to get that mind body connection working and to feel like that whole totality itself.

So again, talking about like Gi is talking about, we should feel good in our body. Devi is talking about like the actual ways that for 1000s and 1000s of years, the oldest system of medicine and self care is our VEDA. So I think it's something to pay attention to. And it's easy to be like, Oh, modern science is better. Not really, not really, when you look at like the amount of health epidemics that are going on in this country, mental health, physical health, overweight, like the all this stuff that's going on. It is it's incredible that we just discard this information. It's like Hey, guys, we spent 1000s of years optimizing this thing, maybe pay attention. So Divya is on the front line showing people how to do it.

And it's fantastic. It's a really beautiful thing to do. It sometimes seems really hard and scary. And we've all heard it right exercise, eat well, sleep, listen to your body. We've heard it. Nothing here is ground like groundbreaking earth shattering. Do it. Just do it. Like it's I struggle with it too. But there's something to that idea of really starting to find that inner wisdom. And that's what our Veda is it's really saying how do you connect with that inner wisdom, your body knows what it needs.

Quick story. Here's you may have heard of stories of like women in Africa, that would eat the clay, there was a certain clay that they would eat when they were pregnant. I hope this is accurate. But somehow a scientist or some groups of researchers had tried to figure out why are these women eating the clay and they found that they actually had a mineral deficiency in the clay had that exact mineral. And so it's like, there is something to our inner wisdom that we actually know what we need. If we listen and we stop, you know, numbing ourselves out with all the other crap that we do, which is like shitty food, whatever, you know, over caffeinated thing. I love ice cream, but it can be a real downfall for some of us onto Christina Wallace.

Man, I want to be Christina Wallace when I grow up, just someone who is just everything right? It's like the artist, the parent, the Harvard professor, like just, Damn, she's just got it all going on with the portfolio stuff. And I did not know about portfolio life, or portfolio careers until I spoke to Christina and it just again gives people permission of like, Don't Don't be one thing. Don't be one dimensional. Honestly. This whole like, you know, master of, or a jack of all trades Master of None bullshit. No. Like it's it's a good thing. It was originally a compliment. Don't try to just master one thing. I've met some of the best people at like the best guitarist in the world or the best physicist in the world. They're boring. They're boring people. No offense. For them, like I admire how hard they worked on things. But one note, people are so boring. Don't be your boring self, like go rich, be all the things chase all the things you're curious about, use multi-dimensional as you want to be. And if you do want to be one note, I apologize. And actually, I don't, because you're boring, I still want to hang out with you.

So I don't feel like I have a lot to lose. Pretty Brittany Jewett is our last one that we did. And man, Brittany has become a coach for me, and really helping me face some of the things that I find really challenging in the same way that I'm afraid of what masculinity is supposed to look like, you know, it's like, I'm supposed to show up a certain way, the most toxic role or title I've taken on in my life as CEO, I don't know how to do that. Like, I didn't know I do. But actually, it's not even true, I still don't know how to do it, that's probably more accurate. I didn't know then. And I still don't know. Now, that's probably the best way to say it's, there's no great guides for what it is to be a CEO, there's a lot of ways to learn the tactics, there's a lot of ways to like you get your MBA, or you could, you know, follow the guide books that are like this is the optimal leadership strategy. The reality is that SEO is really, I don't know, there's so much more responsibility there.

And again, this goes back to the spiritual side of it is, like, my job is to bring my heart to the company, my job is to build something that I could not live without, right. It's like something that I'm going to put my ass on the line and do something that statistically makes no sense. We know all the winners of business, but we don't hear about the 1000s of businesses that fail, right? We don't hear about these people that put everything on the line their families have suffered, because they they gambled all of their savings on trying to build a business and it went to shit. That, to me, is what I think of when I think of like what a real CEO is, it's someone who's willing to say, like, I believe in the mission of this company, so damn much that I'm gonna put my entire ass on the line, my reputation every waking moment, because the reality is when a company takes a left turn, CEOs on the front lines with everybody, it's true, they're going to build a team, they're going to do all that stuff. And yeah, I'm gonna build my executive team, I'm gonna have them handle all the day to day.

But this is the person that is ultimately responsible for everybody, like they are the captain of the ship. And so I do believe that no one told me, Hey, Nick, the the entire hierarchy of business is upside down, you're not at the top of the pyramid, you're actually at the bottom because the shit rolls downhill. Right? You're in service of everyone on the team, you are truly a servant leader. This is not like you run around saying because I'm the CEO, you do what I say that's bullshit. That's the old way of business. And I think in a lot of ways, what Brittany is helping people do is by saying, you know, it's about people first. That's all it's again, it's all a company is it's about the people first, and you're trying to create a shared mission and a shared vision and shared goals, we have to treat treat people well, because they're not machines.

They're not these things you plug in and you don't just buy a new one, and then exhaust it and throw it away and buy the newer model. How do we actually show up in service of the people that are in our company? And how do we both have the hierarchy of like, Yes, I have a title hierarchy, I am above people in title, I am no more valuable, I am no more valuable than any other person as a human, Brittany is helping people bring that to their leadership. And she's helping me do that, too. So I'm forever grateful for what she does, and how she does it. And, you know, again, it's what I love about her, she has no ego. She doesn't have like, she's just so humble about like, she truly is in service. And I think that's why a lot of her work is for nonprofits. So I'm very lucky that as an as a for profit company, I get to have someone like that as a resource, and then someone to guide me. So with all that said, here we are, I'm way over time from what I expected to do.

And we completely went off script from what we thought we were going to do today. But I will say some closing thoughts. I can't believe that I get to do this actually, like, I can't believe that. You know, of all the things I got to do in my life, I've had a dream, as well of having a voice that mattered. And in much of that it was because growing up in the way I grew up, growing up in the Catholic Church, and growing up around the school system I was in it was kind of like, Hey, don't don't shake it up too much, like get in line, do the things that we supposed to do and get good grades at them. And this is not the teaching of my parents. That was never I mean, they they shook it up by building an aviation company. But I think that generally speaking, we're actually afraid of people have something to say that's different. Most of us fear it. Because if, if they're right, God forbid, they're right.

And they say something that is different from what we believe we may have to face ourselves, we may actually have to look in the mirror and say shit, there's something that I fell short on or there's something that I need to go work on. Because now that I know it's a problem. I would be a I'd be a shitty person if I didn't do something about it. But when I'm ignorant, it's fine. I don't have to do anything when I'm ignorant. And so I was always the person that was like, I don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable. I don't want them to reject my ideas. Like there's so much shame that will come along with that. I don't. I'm not interested in being actually my friends would argue but I'm not that interested in Being that provocative like, I'm not really looking to poke people in the eye and say like, Hey, man, look what I'm gonna throw your tables over.

There was never the spirit of it at the real heart of this, to be able to share stories of others that I admire and respect and to share about the places that I'm still feeling like I have a long way to go. is crazy to me, I never thought that this would be possible. And to hear that it actually helps others is even more crazy to me, especially when it comes from people that I'm like, wow, I look up to you. Like, I thought that you're the one who has it all figured out. And you're coming to me and saying like, Nick, thank you for sharing that. That's actually what's true for me too. Under the surface, in all honesty, like I've over the first year of doing this sort of emotion, like, why do I do this, this is crazy.

Like, it's, it is my art. First of all, it was never meant to monetize, I don't want to monetize it, I don't care if I ever make a dime on it. It was all about art, in the way of like, good art is meant to make you look at yourself. Like I heard that description. Um, I think that's true. Really good art is not about showing the artist often be like, Wow, you're amazing with a paintbrush, it's meant to make you feel something to evoke something within you that maybe you didn't know or didn't feel before. And so my goal with this show was really to make people not to make people to allow you the space to feel something that maybe you didn't know was there. And if if this has done it even a little bit, then I have to keep doing it. And I want it to stop multiple times, Ashley told me to keep going some of the emails I got told me to keep going, some of my friends came in were like, No, you should absolutely keep doing this. So I'm gonna keep doing it. And know that there are times where I'm like, this field still feels very self indulgent.

But I have to believe that in my in my heart, and in my mind, if even one person is moved by this as I continue to do it, then it's worth it. Because again, that's my definition of art, my definition of art is that I do something I give myself. It's my active service, to share my experience to whatever medium I can in hopes that it may move something else outside of me or may move someone outside of me. So if you are moved by anything I shared, this is my ask, I barely asked what I want. I would love to hear from you. If you listened to the episode all the way through, there's anything that that stood out to you. It means the world for me to hear something. In fact, like I've not asked anyone helping me promote it, I've not promoted the show all that well, I want to do more of that. But I do feel like I'm a little silly at that stuff.

If you'd be so kind as to like write a comment about the show, or just give it a review. Even if it gets sucks, I don't care, I'd love to know what you actually feel about it. At least we're in a dialogue. So yeah, if they've made you feel anything, please let me know. Post it somewhere if you can tell someone about the show if it moved you. And just know if you do none of that anyway, I totally appreciate you and I just want you to pay it forward. If it has nothing to me, that's fine. Pay it forward, take care of yourself, go within do the work, help others find themselves. I want to share the recipe for fulfillment that I try to follow. And this was given to me by an author, I really appreciate who has been very fundamental in the way I've shaped myself over the last couple of years. But he says if you're seeking fulfillment, there are three simple ingredients to create that. And the first is about making art.

And making art just means making anything a little bit more good, true or beautiful, seeking novelty, which is doing things you've already done maybe a little bit differently, or doing things you've never done before. And the third thing is being of service, and he defines being of services just help people figure out the first to write. So that's it, make things a little bit more good, true, beautiful. I love that and do things you've never done before, find different ways to do the things you already have. And then just help others figure it out. So that's really what this show is by very definition of that this is what this show is all about.

That is my dream beyond both to feel good and to know that I'm in service that I'm gonna go giver. So thank you for listening. I'd be amazed if you made it this far into the show, and I'm going to keep doing it so hopefully hopefully you'll keep tuning in and all the best to all of you. Thank you for listening to the dream beyond. I hope that you received whatever message or inspiration you were meant to get from today's episode. I had a great time recording it for you. If you love the show, please take 30 seconds to subscribe rate and review it that really helps get the word out. And if you want to connect with me, you can find me at

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[the-dream-beyond]

Episode 19: The Easier Way to Get What You Want with Christine Meyer

Christine Meyer 

It's irrelevant that you've become and evolved and expanded as a result of your life experience. But doesn't matter. Really, in your you're not. You're a combination of all of that, for sure. But in your now is where you get to decide who you want to continue to become.

Nik Tarascio 

Today's episode is about this question that many of us have of how do we see this moment? How do we see where we are is perfect and still want more, and still want to go do something to find that motivation to make something else happen? I think it's a question that I suffer with constantly. It's part of the reason why I think I've been addicted to my life feeling so hard. I think so many of us do. We anchor to this idea that it's, it's gotta be hard. It can't be that easy. There's no way it could be that easy. So today, we're going to talk with one of our prior guests, someone who spoke a lot about desire and want, and how do we still want more for ourselves and see where we are as perfect? How do we give ourselves that grace? And how do we focus more on where we actually want to go? Hope you enjoy.

Welcome to the dream beyond. I'm your host, Nik Tarascio. I'm a CEO, musician and overall seeker of Truth, inspiration, and simply put, how to live the most fulfilling life possible. Growing up surrounded by extremely wealthy and successful people gave me unique and unfiltered perspectives of those who have seemingly made it through on the dream beyond we're letting you in on what it really takes to achieve your dreams. What happens when it turns out your destination isn't the promised land you are expecting and how to process the lessons from your past while mapping of course to true fulfillment. Let's get started.

Hey, everybody, I'm here with our first time repeat guest. She's an executive life coach, author of keep it simple, smarty pants stop overthinking, start aligning and live happy. Her clients include many recognizable names. She's also a sought after podcast guest and founding member and regular contributor to the Forbes coaches Council. Please welcome my friend Christine Meyer. Welcome back, Christine.

Christine Meyer 

Thanks for having me. Again, this is going to be a really fun conversation, I'm sure.

Nik Tarascio 

Absolutely. And I'm excited to just mentioned part of the reason I really wanted you to come back is that I heard from quite a few people after our last episode. And it seems this conversation that really struck a nerve for quite a few, besides my dad saying that, like it's rare that someone Sykes me out, and I just go into silence. I think what other people are really latched on to Yeah, thank you. Thank you for humbling me. But yeah, I think what what people really latched on to was this idea of what affected me so much to is this idea of wanting, I think I asked you, how do you sit with the discomfort of being in want? And we started, you started backing me with? Well, it shouldn't be uncomfortable, and why is it and starting to tease apart that desire has so much other stuff? laid into it for many people because of either conditioning of like, what are you ungrateful? Or you're not ungrateful what for what you have? So there's this guilt and the shame that comes along with that feeling of warmth and desire of wanting more.

And, yeah, I just I really appreciated the conversation. And clearly a bunch of other people were moved by it as well. And I decided for today, I just really want to follow where the wind blows on this one, I really wanted to take it from that space. So hopefully, you go with, you know, just us following down that path deeper into desire into want into balancing the shadow with the wanting more, on some level, like it's and the reason why I say that, as I think maybe the place to go is I've really struggled with this idea of I want to make myself better, I want to improve, I want to read all the self help books more and more and more and more and more and more, I need to be better. And I think the thing that was reflected back to me over the last few months is can I start from the place of I'm enough and still want more for myself? How do I do that? Because it feels like it's a or b either I'm enough and I do nothing or I'm not enough and I go out and try to change myself.

Christine Meyer 

Right? And that that is the fear isn't it? Then if I can be enough or if I can be happy with where I am? Or if I can be satisfied with where I am then how will I ever reach for more? How will I ever I'm just going to end up sitting right here in the same condition, same place, same space for the rest of my life. But that is a misunderstanding of how the universe responds to you that is a misunderstanding of how you do move forward into more because we are designed to want more. Why? Because we are expanding beings and the universe is expanding as well. So when you can find a way to be right where you are and understand that you're not broken and don't need to be fixed with right where you are being right where you are and desire more without that being a bad thing. and wanting different, perhaps some improvements, but also being satisfied and on your way to more knowing that there's the inevitability of the more coming for you, unless you block it with your beliefs.

Because typically, that's where we stop, the improvements that we want is through the beliefs that we have the expectations that we have, then that is a beautiful state of being as you can move forward in that satisfied and wanting more satisfied and understanding you're always evolving status satisfied and understanding You're never done. Because if you were complete, then well, you'd be done. Yeah, to put it bluntly, yes. Where we we as human beings, it would be helpful to all of us, if we could make peace with the idea that we are never done. That while we stand in a place on our way to more, there's nothing went wrong with where we're standing. Because right now prepares us for what's coming next, always. And that we're never standing in a wrong place. We're never, we're never, we're never standing in a wrong place, we're always on our way to more. And so to want more and be excited about more, is a beautiful place to be, and to, to not have something and to say oh good something to want.

If we could all come to that acceptance of understanding that we will always want more and be happy about wanting more, we will all be much more joyful in the process of becoming in our journey of life. Because we're we're, we're in being more becoming way more than we are complete. Because truly, we are not complete for very long before we want more and complete I'm using in a different way than I meant it earlier, meaning I've achieved, achieved something that I set out to achieve, I'm done or got that thing. Well, I'm done. But from there, that's a new vantage point from which to want because you build a new house with certain number of closets or certain size, and maybe you discover you want it to be smaller or larger or more closets, you see your with every choice you make with every evolution that you have with all of the expansion that you experience, it clarifies more. When you have one meal, you're not done eating forever, you're going to want another meal,

Nik Tarascio 

I still struggle with this concept. I mean, these points are all valid, right? Like rationally I'm grasping what you're saying, the place that I go to, and this is something I've been reflecting on a lot lately is if evolution works properly, if it truly the system works, our next generations will always be a little bit more evolved than we are, they're always be a little bit better. Which means that like, I've come to the space of like thinking back to my grandparents and my parents and always being like, Man, oh man, why didn't they know what I know today? And it's like, well, if evolution is working, I'm going to be I'm going to have a leg up on them, I'm always going to be a step ahead of them.

Let's go even more meta. In my own life. I don't think I've ever looked back on my past and say considering I was x, x years old at that time, I did a pretty good job. I'm always comparing myself to where I am today. And so I always look back on the past with like, Man, I wish I knew what I knew today, or that was really stupid from this place of knowing what I know. Now that was kind of a dumb move that was pretty ignorant. And so it's like there's almost a shaming of what was there was not I don't feel an appreciation for the fact that it's like actually, if I'm better off than my parents, then that means they did something right.

Yeah, yeah,

Nik Tarascio 

I look at it as if I'm better than I was 10 years ago, that means it's working. But I don't think of it that way. I think of myself 10 years ago is when I when I reflect back and I'm like what a bonehead compared to who I am today. Like I did a lot of dumb stuff.

Christine Meyer 

Well, isn't that all part of your own clarifying process though? And doesn't mean that because does it? Okay, so maybe a more blunt example is when a baby is born and doesn't know how to walk is that mean? There's dumb or stupid?

Nik Tarascio 

Can't get well, rationally? Russia? No, it's not. And that's, that's the thing that's so interesting.

Christine Meyer 

You have a habit, then you have a habit of judging yourself, you have a habit of thinking that you should have known better you have a habit of believing that you should be in a different place than you were or you are perhaps and and can you come to just when you notice that you're doing those things? Can you come to just say, wait a minute, there's that thing I do? There's a thing I do because you're repeatedly doing it. And you're repeatedly beating yourself up for not being someplace else. But isn't isn't, don't you when you pick up a coloring pencil? Isn't it understandable? And yes, I'm appealing to your logic and and if you can stop arguing for limitation here, you might come with me.

Like poking at you. I know you do. So isn't it? I'm experiencing a coloring pencil for the first time in my life. As I look at it and I see that it's called Perform, don't I have to try and experiment? I don't know what the what the crayon, the Pape coloring pencils going to do until I put it to the paper. And then and then as I do that, then I can discover more. And then I discovered there's more colors. Is it wrong for me having to start having started with one colored pencil and discovering that there was shading and they were whatever, whatever. Right? So. So again, you might have to appeal to your logic in this case, because because what you're what you're buying into, is the idea that you're never you're never going to be in the right place, then you're perpetually never going to be in the right place. Is there a wrong place?

No, I don't believe so. Is does where you stand when you were a baby and all through your years? And now? Does does each moment of your life and experience of your life inform you? Yes. Does it clarify some things yes. clarifies what you want, clarifies what you don't want. clarifies who you want to be, clarifies who you who you didn't like yourself being in that moment, perhaps, that you want to be different from so life is is is a game and life is information and feedback to you about who you want to continue to become. But there's no judgment, from the universe, God or Santa, that of where you stand in the process along the way. It's all information. It's all valuable expansion. It's all it's all discovery of you. And it's supposed to be fun.

Now, most of us don't have all that much fun in that process. We take ourselves very seriously. We beat ourselves up, we judge ourselves, we compare ourselves, we think we should be further along, or, and to the point of desire that we spoke about in our last conversation. If we have more than others, we can feel bad. If we there, there is a saying that's that goes, you can't get poor enough to make poor people rich, you can't get sick enough to make people sick people well.

So so in our compassion toward others in our desire to understand and and not being isolated in our thriving at times, we diminish our own ability to thrive and want. And it's programming. It's our parents and their parents and their parents and their parents, when they heard us say we wanted more. They were often eager to shut us down because maybe they didn't have the money. Maybe they were tired of us always wanting more. And they felt responsible for being the resource of that many, many, many, many reasons why people have come to understand that, or come to believe that desire is not a good thing. But it is. It's it's the evolution of all of us. We can't not want.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, I still follow like, in my mind, as I'm thinking of the thought of, I could see why someone would shut me down. If I said, I want more, therefore, I'm not happy. Yeah, with who I am today versus I want more. And I'm also happy with where I am today. Like I don't, I don't know if I've ever really been able to hold both of those thoughts at the same time.

Christine Meyer 

Oh, then it's a good practice for you to get into. I want more and yay, yay, I want more. Yay, something to want yay, something to go for yay. Something you see. And this is a multilayered conversation. Because often when we want something, we also have the underlying belief that we don't always get it. And I'm not saying you're always going to get everything that you want every single time. But often a desire is filled with doubts. Often that desire is filled with expectations from our past, accomplishments, if you will, or experiences and so desire comes.

We've come to associate desire, we talked about this on the last podcast with this feeling of yearning, and it takes practice to understand that desire, pure desire feels good. And if you also practice understanding, that what you want your desires are heard, known and received by the universe and and when you come to understand that whenever you want can be orchestrated in this beautiful way that includes all of your desires up till now in ways that will please and delight you, then there's less doubt mixed in. If you understand that a desire is more about the journey toward it than it is about the accomplishment of it while the accomplishment of it the having of it. The experiencing of it is very satisfying can be satisfying. Some people have achieved their desires and they're not satisfied.

They don't take any time to feel satisfying about the journey or, or where they stand now. And so it's always reaching for more from a place of maybe this is what we're getting to here as well is so many people reach for more from a place of lack. That's right, rather than reaching for more from a place of satisfaction, and that blows some people's minds because they say, Well, how can I be satisfied and want more like you can't help it, you want more of what you've got, then more of the same. You're not going to stop wanting, you're just not going to stop wanting so you might as well find ways to make peace with it. Now, how do you do that? Well, there are multiple ways. And it really depends on who I'm speaking to, in terms of what specifics I would say here, but in a general concept is just continuing to remind yourself that the idea of desire being bad is a misunderstanding about how we evolve and how we create and who we truly are.

Nik Tarascio 

How would you recommend because you talked about like, I might have, I don't know, if you call it an addiction or something to this idea, or some sort of, I have a narrative that I carry about, you know, I see myself as less than or I have shame for who I was in the past, whatever that is, what are actual practices I or someone else could do to say, I do want to anchor that I do want to change that narrative of I want from a place of satisfaction, like I am satisfied, and I want more.

Christine Meyer 

Well, what are you satisfied with right now? That's really where we start? Or is there anything that you're satisfied with right now that you're happy about? And you understand that you'd like to see guitars on your on your wall there? Are you happy with that guitar? Do you play those guitars? Yes, you do. Yeah. So are you happy with those guitars? Do you really like to play them? Yeah. Okay, so you're pretty satisfied with your guitars? Yeah. Would you like to? Is there another guitar that you're you'd like to play? At some point? Is there one, like, you see, but does that feel? Do you feel diminished? With the guitars that you have? Or are you kind of sort of kind of sort of looking forward to that next guitar that you have your eyes on?

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, it's interesting. Like, I don't feel compulsion to go after another guitar. If there was another one, I'd be like, Oh, I'd love to try that out and feel it and see what it can do. But I don't feel like I don't feel like I have to take any action towards that.

Christine Meyer 

Well, great, because because that, to me indicates the perfect place to be because you're not you're not resisting where you are, and you're not feeling dissatisfied with where you are. And you're saying, Well, yeah, but you just said, if when you're satisfied, then then you understand that there's always more you want to probably learn how to pick the guitars differently or, or improve your skills or, or, or, or keep playing for the fundament, you don't have to keep improving your skills you play for the fun of it. But there's desire there, isn't there not is there not even if it's to play for the fun of it. I just want to play that's a desire. That's a desire. So a desire doesn't always have to mean improvement. And desire can just mean I want to do more of that, because it's really fun.

Nik Tarascio 

So I think where my mind goes right now is there's almost two categories of desire. For me, like there's almost this distinction between you again, like I want to play another guitar, maybe what it actually comes down to is, I don't think I need that guitar. There are my life. That's right, I don't, I don't need it to happen. When I get when I say like, I need something, I never really thought about it, it's really, I'm not going to let myself feel satisfaction, happiness. Until I get that thing.

Christine Meyer 

So I've manufactured a need, that's a universal human thought, Trump, I'll be happy when I'll be happy when I finally fill in the blank. So many of us live that way I'll be happy when I have a bigger house, I'll be happy when I bla bla, bla, bla, bla step list of things goes on and on and on when I have the relationship or when my relationship gets better, or, or right. And, and again, it's practicing the idea of being satisfied with where I am understanding that as we evolve, all things improve. But can you be in a place of understanding that you're perfectly perfect right where you are and always evolving. So you'll never be complete, you'll never, you'll never have everything that you want, you just won't because there's when you achieve something or, or accomplish something or receive something, you're always There's always more that you're going to be reaching for and that's again, it's it takes time to transform those long held beliefs that we've had that contradict what we're talking about here. But it doesn't have to take a long time. It just takes some reminding and what I said to you earlier is you have a habit that's that's all it is. It's it's a it's a default, go to have a thought process that you have about certain things which we all do, that you bump into, and when you bump into them, you're not going to feel good.

It's going to feel awful to you when you think those thoughts So every limiting belief that you you or anyone has doesn't feel good when you bump into it. So that's a clue. That is a huge clue to you to go, Wait a minute, something just happened, I must have been thinking something or I've had I have a thought around this, that is letting me know that I'm bumping into an outdated belief, if you will, I can update this belief to be something else. Well, you're not going to change your beliefs on a dime, but it's well, okay, what do I believe about this? That's a great place to start. Well, what would I rather believe about this? Doesn't mean you believe that. Yeah. But what would I rather believe what feels better to believe about this, that I was wrong to be standing in the mud 20 years ago? And stirring it up?

No, that doesn't feel good that that event, that choice that I made, that I labeled as being a, you know, a bad choice, was helpful in clarifying so much more. Yeah, that feels better. Even if it didn't clarify so much more, I was really certain that when I made that choice, I didn't want to do that again. And regret is misplaced attention on something you really can't do anything about. So the only choice you have in the only moment that you have any power in is your now. So if you can continue making those choices about who do I want to be? And how do I want to feel now, that's the best trajectory you can place yourself on for the rest of your lifetime, as you continue to evolve and become and desire more, because when your body hurts you desire a better feeling body, does that mean that it's wrong of your body to be hurting right now? No, you see? So it's, it's it's changing the whole foundation of those beliefs. Understanding that you're never in the wrong place, and you've never done anything wrong. Where those places in those choices or those those behaviors, clarifying to you, yes, you always have a choice. Yes. Is your choice limited in some way based on your beliefs? Yes.

Nik Tarascio 

So I have an idea based on what you just said is two things come to mind. I wonder if we could do them together. So first, I'm really interested in how you would guide someone you know, again, for anyone that doesn't know this, again, you do coaching, you help people in a pretty intensive process. It's not just like a one off. Let's talk once and off you go. I'm really wondering when you're facing someone that has a limiting belief, how you'd manage that. And if it's okay, as you're talking, even think of your book title, and you say like, keep it simple. And there's a belief that's like, life's not simple. It's not easy. And I've had people say to me, like, it doesn't have to be so hard. But I hold on to that belief, there's something about that belief that's serving something. So I don't know if this is something we could do on the fly. But I'd almost like to excavate in the moment. If we could my belief system that feels resistance to the idea of keeping things simple, that life is supposed to be easy. If you'd be open to guiding that process of let's let's excavate this belief system, see what's there, and hopefully validate what you talk about in your book.

Christine Meyer 

Well, I typically don't love to excavate, because the more you excavate, the more you excavate, there's a rabbit hole that you really don't get out of. So we can talk about it a little bit. But there's more value in understanding that if you're trying to retrieve you'd rather be untied, rather than wondering how you got tied and how long you've been tied? You see, does that make sense to you?

Nik Tarascio 

It's a little bit abstract. But I'm not sure exactly how that ties to. Like the idea of trying to understand the source of the belief system, you'd say is not as valuable that it's not so much. Why is that? And it's more slide to focus on what you want instead,

Christine Meyer 

because it's looking backwards a little bit, right? It can help sometimes to understand where that belief system came from. But in a way, it's like, well, the tree is there, how did it get there? Does it doesn't matter, the tree is there, either drive around it, or walk around it or something. And so, so understanding where your belief systems come from, can be a rabbit hole that you'll never get out of, because they all come from somewhere, was just keep it simple. They all come from somewhere, they all come from something you've heard something you've seen something you've been told, whatever, whatever, right? So all of your belief systems come from someplace. And where you are now is is having had a belief system as a foundation of something that you just upheld. Okay, so, so, let's get to the belief system that you have sent to me. I believe that life has to be complicated or is complicated and hard.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, I think life is hard. I think life is hard and I almost judge negative when people say life's easy, I'm like, then you're not paying attention.

Christine Meyer 

But you've shown yourself that life is hard through your beliefs. So your beliefs are always a self fulfilling prophecy. If you believe that life is hard, your life will be harder. And and you do complicate it. I love you very much, but you do complicated, you go digging, and you go excavating, and you judge yourself, and you, you want to be better, which is a beautiful desire, and you never allow yourself to just accept that where you are is just fine. Or rarely. And so how would we work through that, we'll Well, that's information, right, we've sort of touched on kinda sorta where it comes from and how it shows up. Now we could talk about a little bit how it shows up and when it shows up in those specifics, but also in a general sense to start off from because it's always better to be general than to specific at first, because to specific, just excavates, if you will, more resistance, then we just dig into the resistance. And we have to kind of, it's kind of like having your two feet, your both feet in a puddle of mud. And, and you want to see your feet, but you keep stirring up the mud. So you can't see your feet.

And you keep saying to me, I can't see my feet. I can't see my feet. And I said just stop moving your feet. And we'll see your feet eventually. Yeah, you see, so So I feel like that's kind of what you do. You dig and you dig and you you stir up the mud. And and that's not that's not a criticism or judgment of you. It's just a particular perspective that you've come into. And a lot of, you know what self development stuff has you doing a lot of that? Because there are a lot of practices, that relative to self development, that that keeps you digging. But what I want to do is get you out of that hole, stop digging.

So how can we do that? Well, you identify some of the beliefs that you have life is hard. Well, does that belief? Does that idea even feel good to you? Or does it feel awful is like Oh, doesn't feel good? So what other belief could you have around that? What else would you rather believe? What would you like to believe? If I'm not asking you to believe it? Would you like to believe that life is could be easy? Yeah. Would you like to? Would you like to believe that life doesn't have to feel hard all the time? can life be hard? Yeah. Let's let's not pretend it doesn't feel hard sometimes. Because Darn it. It does. But does that mean that life is hard? No. Do you have moments of feeling ease? Some All right, which what moments are they?

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah. I'm cuddling with my dog feels pretty easy.

Christine Meyer 

It's got a lot to teach you. You've got a lot to learn from him of the ease and flow and contentment, how contentment just keeps get having him get his way? Doesn't it? Doesn't life just show up in really good, awesome, easy, flowing ways for him? Because he is content? Now? Yeah, animals don't ask as specifically as we do. So it's kind of easy for them to let life for the most part, be easy for them. Even in situations where it's not that easy for them. They typically overall don't show much discontent in their situation. But your process would be again, we wouldn't solve this in a day. We wouldn't solve this in two days. It's a process. It's a practice of understanding that I just bumped into that. And that didn't feel good. There. I am upholding that belief that life is supposed to be hard or that life feels hard.

And I'm not at all. Diminishing that for you. Life feels hard. I get it. And you've shown yourself that to be true in some situations. But what what if you could ask yourself what if I believed that life could be easy? What doors would that open for me? What? How would that feel? What just the idea of it feels better? You see? So it's a process of understanding that there are multiple redirects that you can do along the way. And a question that feels a statement or belief that feels bad is right there and then letting you know that that's not how your soul sees it. Life doesn't have to be hard. It's what you believe it to be again, self fulfilling prophecy that will continue to be fulfilled so what I like to believe something different Yes, I want all right, we'll have something's been easy for me and you, you acknowledge that light fills you with easy with your dog.

Well, that's one place that's being demonstrated for you. I'm sure there are plenty of other places that that have been easy. For for you or felt more ease around. And that's what you have to focus on is okay. Well, it's not hard all the time. Again, it's talking to yourself. It's Yes, absolutely appealing to your logic. But it's also stretching yourself to ask yourself a better feeling question. Because when you get a better feeling, when you ask a better feeling question, you also get a better feeling answer. If you keep asking yourself, Why is life so hard? What's the answer? You're gonna get on that? Because it is. Because I've shown myself that life is hard. And, yeah, 1000 people listening to this podcast might agree with you. And I still want to say that doesn't diminish. That doesn't mean that life doesn't feel hard at times. But it does not have to be the way that it is. That's, that's not a T, big capital T truth. It's a belief that is being fulfilled by your own beliefs.

Nik Tarascio 

I could see how that would influence my decisions in a moment, that if I was faced with an A or B situation, and one I know is going to be hard, and one I know is probably not going to be hard, then I'd be skeptical of the one that seems easy. But like, that's not, it's not consistent with what I've known to be true. Therefore I choose. I don't choose that path. Yeah,

Christine Meyer 

yeah, exactly. You see how it just forms your life forms and informs your life, those beliefs that you have? And so what if you had a different belief about? Could life be easier for you? I will say yes, it could be 100% easier, things could fall into place more easily. Yes, 100%, it could, even when things weren't falling into place, in in, in perfect little ways in the way that you wanted them to be, you would be more you would experience more ease in the experience of it in the flow of it in the unfolding of it. And so again, your beliefs are always a self fulfilling prophecy. And if life feels hard, and you'd rather than it didn't, I get it. It's hard to juggle up those beliefs and say, well, but I've got evidence that life is hard. I get it again.

But do you want it to keep being that way? Is that what you want for yourself? No, I'd like more ease. Great. That's a that's a great start. But I don't believe in ease. That's okay. You don't have to yet. You don't have to yet. Would you like to? Yes, I would. All right, then. Great. Great. Well, then what do I do from now for moving forward? Well, you just telling yourself, speak to yourself, show yourself showing yourself. Ask yourself to show yourself that something can be easy. And I will guarantee you that there's more ease in your life than just petting your dog. I know there is not everything is hard. But what you're used to tuning yourself to is the challenges, the struggles, the the digging. What if I didn't dig so deep? What if I just let life be easy? And we all complicated, we all complicate our lives? We all make them at some way, in some way, shape, or form harder than it has to be? Yes, we do.

And that's resistance. Those are the beliefs that we have along the way that we bump into. And we, you know, again, this is a multi layered conversation that we're not going to solve your your thing in one sitting. But that's where you start. What would I rather believe? What would I like to believe? Does it feel better to believe something else? What if, what if? What if life was easier? What if I could show myself so you? Again, it's like, when you set your GPS in your car, you set it for the destination you want to go not the destination you came from. And so again, in a logical sense that makes to demonstrate that idea of we don't have to keep digging, there's this belief that, that we have to keep digging and figure out what's wrong with us and why we believe this and where it came from and who gave it to us and how long it's been happening. And they get to me, that's that's trying to set your GPS on where you came from. Yeah, when you can feel that,

Nik Tarascio 

right. I feel so much like there's such a desire, because I'm like, Why do I want to do that? Right? Like, what's the real underlying reason to look backwards or go digging? It's, it's like, it's just like, I want to, I guess I want to validate my story. It's almost like See, I told you

Christine Meyer 

and and I'm so glad you said that because that's something I didn't say it. Most of us want to say where we came from to justify or validate where we are, especially when we're not where we want to be at or when we believe that we're not where we're we should be, you see and so we explain we justify we want validation from others we want to tell but it's been so hard for me that's why I haven't been whatever yet. And that's a waste of time. We all everyone listening if you could just stop that or do it a little later. As you would feel more joy in your life, you wouldn't feel so diminished in that moment.

Because every time you do that, I will guarantee you that you feel diminished in some way, shape or form. But that's how we relate we want, we want to be relatable we want, we want to look good in the eyes of others. So we explain how we got here, when it's, it's, again, you're going to get in your car and set your GPS to where you came from where you don't want to go, No, you're not. So again, this this, this perspective that I'm offering here is not something that you just jump into and say, Okay, I'm done. And I'll never, I'll never look back again, I still look back. And I do this every day all day long. And I've been doing it for over 20 years, meaning this coaching. But I know what I'm doing when I'm doing it. Yeah, I know what I'm in the process of creating what I'm doing it and your pilot.

When you're heading to a destination, you you have a reservation at the airport that you're going to for where you're headed. You plan in advance, you get you make plans before you get there. And same thing with our daily monologue and dialogues with others. How often are we thinking, speaking and feeling forward into what's becoming versus where we came from?

Nik Tarascio 

It's an interesting idea to me too. Like I think what I what I really hear in that is this idea of, I always thought of external circumstances as the destination, this idea that like I'm trying to arrive in this level of success, this level of financial blah, blah, blah, this apartment, this house, whatever that is, it's interesting to think about the destination as this belief system. I'm trying to arrive in this belief system, the external stuff, just the external stuff, it doesn't matter, you could change it around. I'm trying to get to a place that I think and feel certain things.

Christine Meyer 

Yeah, well, and the external stuff are the manifested results of your thinking and your beliefs.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah. And so that's like, that's super tricky for me, because then it gets to like, shit. I've moved a lot externally. And I'm still pretty much where I started in a lot of ways, because I've been looking back so much and bringing all that stuff with me.

Christine Meyer 

Yeah, yeah. But good to know, right? It's good to know, rather than beating yourself up over doing it, it's good to know now. So now you can make a different choice now that you know, you can start making different choices again, you don't suddenly change a belief system that you've had. But it doesn't have to take that long it does take, for lack of a better word, some diligence, meaning paying attention to how you feel when you bump into belief. When you bump into a thought or belief, something that doesn't feel good. That's your first clue, clue. Oh, there, there's, there's that thing that I do. There's that habit. It's just a habit. That's all you can create new habits around your beliefs.

You can create new beliefs. You can create new behaviors, you can create new choices you can create. But first you have to start a What am I tuning to here? Where am I? Again, as a pilot, you'll understand that one degree, one little degree as you keep moving forward will take you in a whole different place. Yeah. Then you may be meant to be in. And that's all it is, is paying attention to how you feel. And that doesn't mean being hard on yourself. It's more like Oh, good. This is information.

This is information for me valuable information for me. What am I thinking? How am I feeling? And then you you recognize that you're thinking, Oh, I was playing this scenario out as if you know, in my old habit of life is hard. I feel this feels hard. And why does it have to be like, pay attention to your monologue? Why did I do this again? Or why does it have to be so hard? Does nothing come easily? Like, very revealing, right there? Again, doesn't make you wrong doesn't make you bad doesn't make you a horrible human. It's just conclusions you've come to over your lifetime. So so who cares? Big deal? Yeah, big. That's, it's

Nik Tarascio 

great. It's a great like, I've been trying to anchor the entire time we've been talking, I'm like, I need something that I can hold. And what I keep going back to is I imagine trying to order an Uber. And I'm like you the Uber says where you are and you say where you want to go. And I imagine the Uber driver coming in me explaining to him how I got here. And he's like, all right. Do you want to go to the destination? Like no, I need to tell you, I need to tell you how I got here. First, I need you to understand why you're picking me up here first. He's like, Okay, I'm going to charge you up to three minutes a wait time, like, do you really want to do that? Or do you want to just go to where you want to go? And so I think like that's so interesting to me how much I've witnessed other people doing it, how much I'm doing it and I'm like, you know, again, I'm curious about people. There's a pure curiosity. That's like, I actually just wonder why we do that. And also, it doesn't really matter. It doesn't matter that much.

Christine Meyer 

But you already sent it, right? We already discussed that to validate and justify and to sort of explain to ourselves how we got here and others, we are aware of other people's perspectives of us, and we want to come off looking good. And so if I'm standing in a place that I am not very proud of, or that I think I should be elsewhere, then there's a tendency for me to want to justify to you or or demonstrate to you how I got here. And I think it's important, I think that somehow it's, it's, it's it, it does something, but honestly, it does nothing, it does nothing.

To your point, that was a great example, that you that you took and said, You know, when you get in into the cab into the Uber drivers manual, you're not going to tell them all of the places that you've been today, you're going to, you're going to tell the Uber driver where you're headed, because everything else is irrelevant. It's irrelevant in the sense that it's clarifying for you. Things that you want things that you don't want, it's irrelevant, that you've become and evolved and expanded as a result of your life experience. But doesn't matter.

Really, in your you're not. You're a combination of all of that for sure. But in your now is where you get to decide who you want to continue to become in what you want in your now your point of power is now not then not tomorrow. It's now and then it's now again, and then it's now again. And it's now again. So in every moment, you get to decide how you want to perceive things, what you want to believe what you want to lean in the direction of at least move in the lean in the direction of it. Like when you get into the Uber drivers car, you say, here's where I want to go. You're not there. Yeah. Do you feel angst about that? Here's where I want to go. But you're not there yet. Isn't that a desire that you don't feel angst about?

Nik Tarascio 

Here? Here's where I want to go about it? Yeah, I'm pretty good about it. Yeah,

Christine Meyer 

same thing. It's the same thing. So so moving through these these conversations, is the idea that you've got to find something that your logic adheres to, that that makes sense. And then you've got to keep finding ways that it keeps making sense to you to make new sense of a new belief that you're trying to adapt to. Because if you keep trying to justify your old belief, it's it. But it's been hard, I get that I'm not at all saying to you that it hasn't been, do you want something different? Well, then you're going to have to think differently, you're going to have to feel differently, you're gonna have to reach for different thoughts. It just that's just the way it is. And there's not one way, there's not one formula, there's not one way, there's not one trick, there's not one. Anything other than some of the suggestions that I've made is asking yourself a different question. Does this feel good? What would I rather believe? What feels better? What do I believe? What else can I believe? That kind of thing? Well, what if?

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, yeah, like I said, it really, my mind wants to complicate even now to be like, but what are the specific steps I need to take to install a new belief system in my life versus, you know, it's like, if I just looked at that belief system every day and say, What would this day look like if that were true? Yeah. And then what choices can I make that would be consistent with that?

Christine Meyer 

With that? How can I align myself with that desire? What? What would I rather believe? Well, I'd rather believe that life was easy. Well, so what thoughts do I need to think? Or could I think that align with the idea that life is easy? Well, it's going to take you a little while to come up with some of those thoughts. Because you're not in the practice of it. But the more you practice it, again, this is a practice. It's not a, it's not a get rich, quick scheme. It's a practice. It's an and, frankly, you're going to practice it for the rest of your lifetime. Because as soon as you identify a desire, every contradictory belief is going to show up in your life.

Nik Tarascio 

I feel that right now. Even as we're talking, I'm like, Oh, that's so easy. I just have to hold the belief that I want to, I want to, you know, anchor to, and then just keep choosing towards that. And then the part of me that like, thinks hard is like, No, it's not that easy. And I'm like, but what if it is that easy? So I'm still wrestling with all of that stuff. And I could see that that really is the practice it's in that moment where I want to challenge it, I want to fight it. I want to fight what you're saying.

Christine Meyer 

is hard. That's right. What what value is that to you? Maybe you enjoy a heart maybe some people enjoy having a hard life. I know some people who love to make things really complex and complicated and that's just their, that's just seems to be their way of being. I like to make things really simple. Because to me, everything in the world is really simple. I can look at something and just bring it down and say listen, here's here's how that is just like that. But that works for me.

But if you if you are if you identify as being the person who has a difficult life, then when your identity gets challenged, you will wobble a little bit my identity is being challenged around this. So it is forming a new thought thought it is forming a new belief it is forming a new identity. Well, what if? What if things could go easily for me? Just asking just and that I understand from your perspective that that seems too simple. And probably too many of your listening. listeners hear? And do you want to argue for that limitation that that seems too simple? Or do you want to just give it a try? Because again, if you tell your GPS where you want to go, and you move your car in that direction, you're ultimately going to get there? Unless you say, No, I'm not taking that route. I'm going in the opposite direction. Yeah. So the question that feels better is like setting the directions in your GPS. That's why I said that. Yes.

Nik Tarascio 

I mean, I'll land the plane with this thought, which is really funny to experience. It is like, I hear this voice in my head, that's like, That can't be true. And the real reason it can't be true is because my system, immediate, like that mean voice I was talking about wants to be like, if that were true, and life was that easy. And all this time, we've been the one making it hard. The inner dialogue is like, what a fucking idiot, like,

Christine Meyer 

But again, you don't you don't call the baby and fucking dad for not knowing how to walk right or talk. It's like, you don't know what you don't know until you know it, that that's you, you truly have to find ways to be easier on yourself and kinder to yourself. And, and I'm sure you've heard him, but how would your best friend speak to you, right? Like, you've got to become your own best friend, because you're with you the most than anyone else is, and until and again, for all the listeners a really good practice is to practice becoming your own best friend, don't look to your, this might sound a little weird, don't look to your best friends, to always be your best friends, the ones that uplift you and support you look to yourself to do those things and have those monologues with yourself. Because again, you take you with you wherever you go, and you're with you the most. You're never without you, you are your own best friend, or you are your own worst enemy.

And that is not a criticism. But it's an evolution. And this idea that you've got to be someplace that you're not is kind of ridiculous. And that's not making fun of you. It's just it's a belief system that you you will want to if you want if you want to continue to challenge continue to challenge that rather than go digging in more rabbit holes, continue to challenge your current perspective that life is hard, and some of the other beliefs that go along with that, and some of the choices that you're making, moving forward, not back, because Because so when I was a kid, I used to when I when I heard people arguing, I would go hide behind chairs. I would go hide somewhere as runaway as fast as I could when I heard people arguing. And I could stand from my now and say, Well, that was dumb, like, why do that?

And judge it. I don't do that anymore. Sometimes I'd like to. I don't do that anymore. But again, to stand in my now and say that that didn't serve me did that not serve me? Well, then because it helped me escape and helped me find my own alignment. It was a place for me to go where I didn't have to be exposed to the turmoil that was going on. And so again, to judge that and say that that was wrong, is of no value. Do I want to continue doing that? No. That's the valuable part. But where I was, is a perfect bouncing off place. For what I learned from that, and what I desired from that and how I learned to manage situations like that. Does that make sense?

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, no, it doesn't I I'm really sitting with this idea of like two critical things that I'm hearing. And again, there's such a desire, I think, like science, always looking for a desire to understand where we came from. And I'm like, there's some value to that. But I do really like this idea of like, who cares? Who cares, let someone else go figure all that stuff out. I'm going to be busy just creating what I want, because I know what I want, and I know where I am. So I just have to move from where I am to where I want to go.

And that's it. I don't need to worry about all that other noise you can get if it's fun, if it's fun, and it's curious and life is working out like and I have the space just to be like let me just think about that. That's kind of fun and interesting. That's a very different space to come from then like what an idiot like what a total moron and I think that's so like the two things again, that I really hear for me and probably for other people I hope this is relevant is yeah, just acknowledge where you are knowledge where you want to go and then start moving there. However you want to go, just start going there. And while you're going monitor that voice in your head, right and listen to that voice in your head because like you said it has not been my best friend. It has been a really actually a great enemy though. like if it was an enemy to me, it has driven me forward so hard. So I have to thank that part of me.

Christine Meyer 

And, yeah, sure, sure. And that's what makes you tired. And that's what makes you ill. And that's what makes you not believe in yourself. And that's what makes you not achieve what you want that that's what makes you reach for more and never feel like you get there, you see. And so that is where it starts again. Because Because if you speak mainly to yourself again, it sounds again, simplistic, isn't as simple as starting to speak. Think more nicely to myself. Yeah, it is that simple. Is that going to feel simple? No, heck no, certainly not. If you're in the habit of not speaking nicely to yourself. Will it take practice?

Yeah. Will they take time? Yeah, how much time? I don't know. That's up to you. Yeah, that's up to you. And your life will change the moment you start asking yourself better feeling questions, I guarantee it. It just does. Because it's like, again, when you get in your plane to to pilot someone someplace you're not, you're not then turning the plane in a different direction than where they said they want to go. You're just not doing that. So understanding that the more you look back, the more you bring all of that stuff with you. And this is not to disqualify anyone's past or anyone's experience. It's just from here. And now you have the opportunity to make new choices from here. And now you have the opportunity to look at all of that and see the perfection of it, or the imperfection of it and make new choices.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, and what I'll say to that is, if anybody listening feels resistance thinks this doesn't make any sense thinks it sounds stupid. I get it, I get it. That's the resistance like that is literally the thing that we're talking about. It's that thing that saying, I will not let myself have it easy. I will not let myself change the way I'm doing things I want to hold on to my past. And so I think that's why it's so it really is so meta for me. It's like, Yeah, can I really let go of that stuff and just focus on this new paradigm,

Christine Meyer 

your future depends on you. Changing it? That's right, sure that you want depends on you making those changes. As stupid as that might sound or as simple as it might sound or so simple. So many people resist the idea that feeling good is the key to having all that you want. To simple, can't do that can't be happy, because Because Because Because and then we find, we scrape up all kinds of reasons why we can't be happy. It's it's time this is you know, a little bit of a blunt state, it's time for us all to stop doing that. If we want to experience the joyful lives that we were born to have. And to experience ourselves as creators of our lives, it's time for us to have a different perspective and to adapt to new foundations from which that we can live our lives more fully and freely.

Nik Tarascio 

So really cultivating the emotional experience that we're seeking. Like, again, because we said it's backwards, right? Like, I will feel the things I want to feel when I have whatever thing I'm chasing, but instead saying what if I could cultivate that emotional experience and operate and live in that emotional experience today, what you're ultimately saying is that stuff will actually follow that will follow the emotional experience. I know that that again, God,

Christine Meyer 

the emotional experience must be cultivated and created first. That's just where it all comes from. Because because you are your own point of attraction you are attracting by virtue of your thoughts and your in your emotions indicate what you're in the process of attracting and creating. So the emotions have to change first. The emotions have to change first. Otherwise, everything that you ever want, that feels a certain way that you're not feeling yet is forever going to be out of reach forever. And you won't be satisfied with where you are.

So yes, it's an internal journey. It's an internal game of finding a way to feel how you want to feel first so that you can have fun along the way and so that you are more of a match. It's like you want to listen to music playing on Sirius XM, the pulse but you're tuned to hit one. And I will just change the station. But I can't, but I can't. I can't. Yes, you can. But that's where it starts. It's got to start with tuning yourself to the station you want to hear if you if you're tuned to life is hard. You will get life is hard. And it will be validated. It will be your truth. But it doesn't have to be. Yeah.

Nik Tarascio 

That's a hell of a message by the way. My dog's name is tune. So yeah, I think about that all the time. And I guess that's what he's tuned to. He's tuned to a really content life, a nice cushy life and so he can definitely teach me some stuff. It's

Christine Meyer 

demonstrating things to you watching Yeah, right. He doesn't want as specifically as you do, and, and so on and so on. Yeah, there are differences. But but they really are. They really are tuners.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah. So good. Well, this is phenomenal. It's always just amazing. Anytime we even have just a random chat, it turns into the most meaningful conversation on my month. So thank you for always bringing us to a place of levity and seriousness, and playfulness, and joy and possibility. It's just a it's always so empowering to talk to you. Thank you to my resistance for not pushing too hard in this in this episode, because there's still that far. It's like I got a fight. But what I just want to close with again, the some of the three things that really stood out to me was the importance of really cultivating that or tuning the station, I like the way you said it tuning to the station, tune into the experience that you want to be in that emotional experience, or after focusing on where you want to go and letting go of where you came from.

Again, not to as you said, not to discredit or dishonor that but just to say, like, when I keep looking at where I come from, I end up going back there actually, like we go where we look. And I've said it many times, but I never thought about it in this context. And the last one is in all of that just to continually be kind to yourself, and to really listen to that, that that self narrative, that self dialog, and ask yourself if that's your best friend or your worst enemy, and to, again, change that relationship if it needs to be changed. Start to be that that positive, encouraging forward force in your life. And man, oh, man, this is my homework for the next who knows how long? But I think it's

Christine Meyer 

like you're never done, right? It's a practice. It's a practice. I wonder that too. It's like, Will this ever be done? But it's not because because every time you you evolve, then you're standing in a new place where you have other beliefs that you bump into? And it's like, Oh, great. And that's the other thing is like, great, I get to expand again. Isn't this awesome? If we could all just see it more as a game versus a, we need to be these perfect enlightened humans who, you know, I think that idea of enlightenment is is also misunderstood. I believe that enlightenment happens in this moment when I'm feeling good. Because when I'm feeling good, I am tuned to my broader perspective in this moment. Is that not enlightened? Yeah. When I'm digging deep into my troubles and trying to identify why and what and who and when. I am not enlightened in that moment. But that's but I think a lot of people think that by digging, I become more enlightened. And I say no, that that's the opposite of enlightenment that's digging yourself in deeper hole that you it's really hard to get out of.

Nik Tarascio 

I've traded a lot of presents for searching in the past,

broader perspective, or your source or soul in those moments.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah. Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for the time. And if you're really curious to excavate into Christine's work, check out her book, keep it simple, smarty pants. She has a free chapter on her website. She has a new book coming in 2024 Can't wait for that. Will there be any kind of party or anything? I always like to celebrate those kinds of things.

And well, sure if you want one.

Nik Tarascio 

Throw it in New York. All right. Sounds good to me. Yeah. I love that. And again, she also works with small groups of people that have a real deep desire to go deep into this work in a coaching capacity. So Christina, thank you for being you as always, and I hope everyone enjoyed this absolutely, deeply profound, meandering, curious conversation that always lights me up. Thank you for listening to the dream beyond. I hope that you receive whatever message or inspiration you were meant to get from today's episode. I had a great time recording it for you. If you love the show, please take 30 seconds to subscribe rate and review it. That really helps get the word out. And if you want to connect with me, you can find me at

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Episode 18: Overcoming Burnout: Strategies for Resilience with Brittany Jewett

Brittany Jewett 

There is a ton of energy work out there that you can do multiple times a day. It's really resetting the body and resetting and being like taking yourself truly from your brain back into your body and breathing. Or doing yoga, facilitating that mind body connection. 10 times out of 10 will always, always help you release some energy that you've taken on to be your own.

Nik Tarascio 

So if you've ever wondered, Am I burnt out right now? Am I taking on too much? Am I completely overwhelmed? You most likely are, in fact many of us are. I think we're so conditioned not to believe that about ourselves. And we just keep pushing through anyway. But this next guest really kind of gets into the heart of the matter and talks about what burnout really is, what to do about it, and how it really is preventing us from living our most fulfilling life. I hope you enjoy the show.

Welcome to the dream beyond. I'm your host, Nik Tarascio. I'm a CEO, musician, and overall seeker of Truth, inspiration and simply put, how to live the most fulfilling life possible. Growing up surrounded by extremely wealthy and successful people gave me unique and unfiltered perspectives of those who have seemingly made it on the dream beyond we're letting you in on what it really takes to achieve your dreams. What happens when it turns out your destination isn't the promised land you are expecting how to process the lessons from your past while mapping a course to true fulfillment. Let's get started.

Everybody, today's guest is a consultant leadership coach and social impact strategist. She's the owner of b.Renovo, a consulting firm dedicated to creating high-impact executive teams and skilled nonprofit professionals who have fulfilling personal lives. I imagine that's really hard for people who are in the nonprofit world. They're super dedicated to their work. She's passionate about creating high-performing nonprofits in order to provide the best care to families who are facing poverty, human trafficking, homelessness, addiction, and reentry. Please welcome Brittany to everybody. Hey, thanks for being here. Thanks, pal. It's amazing. It's so good to have you here. And again, I've had the fortune of having Brittany come speak to my YPO forum and just watch her work her magic. And she's just a wealth of knowledge. So I'd love to kind of start out with more of a personal question, which I think will kind of illuminate the path force, which is when you were a child, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Brittany Jewett 

Oh, easily a veterinarian. I love animals. I'm a big animal lover. It was the biggest thing I've ever wanted to be. And at some point, one of my sisters was like, you know, you have to like put animals asleep, right? And I was like, nevermind.

Nik Tarascio 

Not a big barrier there. That's good. And from that, I mean, do you have pets yourself?

Brittany Jewett 

I do I have a dog.

Nik Tarascio 

Only one thing about what's going on here.

Brittany Jewett 

I now we used to live on a farm and had a bunch of things roaming around. That's the dream, right?

Nik Tarascio 

Amazing. Do you ever see yourself sometime in the future revisiting that dream? Or is it long, long since sailed?

Brittany Jewett 

That has long since sailed? But I absolutely do see myself back on a farm with a bunch being surrounded by a bunch of dogs and chickens and geese and goats.

Nik Tarascio 

I remember watching there was a show. I don't remember if it was a Netflix show or something like that. But there was this guy. He I guess he lived on a farm in Colorado with four dogs. And they had sheep and he's like, what else is there? And I was like, he may be right. He actually may be right all this time. I'm running around New York trying to build all these things. Maybe it's the guy with the dogs and the sheep who wins.

Brittany Jewett 

It's the farm life. Yeah.

Nik Tarascio 

One of these days. So I'm not I'm not done with that dream yet. Maybe at some point, I'll get over my need to be going a million miles an hour and just hanging out with owls. So with all that said, clearly you have not gone in that direction. But it sounds like it's still in many ways, helping others, whether it's helping animals or helping people this seems like there's this desire to help that's kind of innate to who you are.

Brittany Jewett 

Yes, it absolutely is. I've always had a really sensitive spirit. And I ended up I was born and raised in New Jersey. So I also was like, in, you know, nurtured into the go a million miles an hour, I thought I'd be like living in New York City, my whole adult life with 100,000% pace. But at some point I pivoted to really wanting to get to know what makes people tick. What motivates people what makes people want to change, and that took me on a path towards social work. So I am a licensed master level social worker, that means just like a part time associate therapist, as well as doing a lot of the consulting and leadership work that I do. And in that that really just kind of prepares you and equips you to see like, what do people really need aside from all of the assumption sense that we are putting out there and putting on them, let's like really listen, and take the time to see how we can design life for somebody in a way that they can really grab hold of it in a way that they really want.

Nik Tarascio 

Sounds so what what was that moment for you like it? You know, again, you're on the track for this, like the fast paced life in New York, New Jersey. And again, I'm gonna be asking about burnout today. That's obviously the topic of the show, for selfish reasons. But like, what, what was that moment? Is there a particular breaking point where you were like, I just need to take a left turn here.

Brittany Jewett 

Yeah. I wanted to be a lawyer at to, like be like, maybe like a civil attorney, work in social justice of some kind. And I was given loving, gentle guidance to not go that route, like, other routes to do that. And, and I pivoted, and I fell in love with psychology. You know, maybe that the fast 300 $200,000 worth of debt is not like the direction you want to go.

Nik Tarascio 

How far did you go down the hole?

Brittany Jewett 

Not far a year in my undergrad.

Nik Tarascio 

Okay, so that was enough to know, that wasn't for you know,

Brittany Jewett 

I did pretty long it was like, now I switched to English, or I switched to psychology. I was like, Oh, I love this. Yeah, now I have to make a living.

Nik Tarascio 

What's incredible, I mean, truly, even as I'm reading, you know, your, your bio, I hear this desire to help others that may not be able to help themselves. And when you spoke about being a vet, it's the same thing. Like animals that can't help themselves. So it seems like you are the justice warrior from for many of us. And, and kind of going into that I'd love to learn more about, you know, just burnout for especially for the types of people that are generally listening to the show, I think there's a lot of people that have spent most of their life, stuffing down the pain, the discomfort, the fear, and just saying go go go, there's a promised land on the other side of this. And the show, really, I mean, the whole concept of the show is for most people, there is no Promised Land, you just do it. You break and realize, like, wait a minute, I was chasing the impossible. So what exactly is burnout? How do you describe it? Because I'm not even sure I really understand it.

Brittany Jewett 

Yeah, so there have been several definitions of burnout over the years since around 1970. But I think the biggest one that people resonate with and the research resonates with is emotional exhaustion. So it's kind of that state where you really can't give any more, you can't have any more compassion, you're just really, really sad, you have a hard time thinking clearly. And then that emotional exhaustion ends up manifesting in our bodies, sometimes it will show up as digestive issues, or high blood pressure, just, you know, tension in our shoulders or neck. And it really just relates to the fact that I have nothing left to give.

Nik Tarascio 

And so for people that you've worked with, I mean, are there are these the kinds of people that like, as you're talking to them, you're like, I already know you're in burnout, even if you have no idea. It's like it's almost visible that someone is experiencing that.

Brittany Jewett 

Yeah, yeah. And they usually actually say things like, the promised land and 1000 miles an hour.

Nik Tarascio 

And I let myself out, I don't know, this puerile.

Brittany Jewett 

Yeah, there is usually a state, a state of success that people are looking for, or a state of being that is not in the present moment. And that is often what I find, like, can cut people into to, you know, like, there is this life that is in front of you right now that you have, then there is this future life that you're striving to do. And this life that's in front of you, you have to find out is it there are costs to, to it to get to that. And when I say like emotional exhaustion, it's not just at work, it's the demands of everyday life, whether it's your household chores, coming in the needs of your partner, the needs of your children, the needs of your parents, you pour all of that onto one human person, that phone's going off nonstop. And it's all combined, it's like I have nothing left to give any of these things. So something has to match get it all for the sake of the future.

Nik Tarascio 

So as you know, as I'm listening to you what, what, what's really hard for me to process in a lot of this as I imagine that many times the people that you work with are coming to you they probably have some awareness that they have a problem, but in this case, people are listening to this show going like I'm kind of maybe I'm kind of curious to know a little bit more about burnout, but I'm not really burnt out. Like I imagine even for me there's a little bit of denial of like, you know, it's it's a mullet You're tired, but I'm not that burnt out. So like, what is what is life supposed to be like? Like, I'm actually wondering if I've just never known what it was like not to be burnt out?

Brittany Jewett 

Yeah. Well, that's a really, really good question. And I have found that a lot I recently did another podcast with friends is talking about this term, protecting your peace. And not a lot of people know what that is not a lot of people know what it actually feels like to experience like an inner sense of calm and alignment, where you are really centered and grounded in your space. And in fact, I would say that you're seeing in like leadership terms, you're seeing a lot more article, articles come out saying, There is no such thing as work life balance, there's no such thing as you can't achieve this, it's not possible. And, you know, I'm not I can't speak for everybody. But I can say that, you can tell like when you're not in alignment, that's the best way to know, you can tell when something is off. And something is kind of broken within, you might not have words for it, you might not call it your inner alignment, or your self nourishment or your peace. But you can tell when you're running yourself into the ground and nobody and everybody needs more from you. Does that help? Does that make sense?

Nik Tarascio 

Yes, I don't want us to, but it does. Like I just can't even think of a moment in my adult life where I didn't feel like I was being pulled in so many different directions or like, you know, again, getting into the deeply psychological stuff is I always felt responsible for everyone else's experience around me. And now as a CEO, even more, so it's like I have 100 people that I want to make sure they're having a good experience and their families have been happy with the experience that that the employees or have, you know, having with us. And so there's like so much of a sense of burden all the time. And I'm wondering like, is that just the nature of a CEO role? Or is it the nature of a leadership position where people care about their teams? Or is that actually not the way it's supposed to be?

Brittany Jewett 

I would say that is the way it's supposed to be, but with a caveat. So I don't get to work with a lot of CEOs who care about their employees, families. So that's amazing. You know, like, I just want to applaud you for that level of care and intention that you bring to the work like, there are not a lot of CEOs thinking how will these all these things impact this situation or that situation? You know, so that's one thing I can say. But the caveat is, the self awareness required to know when somebody else's energy becomes your energy is sky high, like high priority, right. So there's a difference between weighing all your options, taking in all the information, nurturing your team, and driving yourself into the ground with all that, or letting it go. And figuring out how to multiple multiple times a day, let the energy that is yours be yours and let the energy that is not yours, not viewers will be able to like let people go and let the pressure while pressure valve release a little bit. Because there's just there's no CEO, that's gonna get it right 100% of the time. And the fact that you're thinking and you're caring, and you're leading with a heart is really the highest priority, your employees are going to know your intention. But you also have to release them and release that as a burden that might crush you. You know, that's a big burden to carry.

Nik Tarascio 

Do you have advice on how to let go of those burdens? And again, the main reason for the question is I know so many people, there was a story that I read, I think it was on Quora, or Reddit or something like that. And it said, Someone asked, like, what's the easiest way to become a millionaire? And the answer was, there's two ways one is be so insecure, and so not ever feeling like you're enough that you must, you must become a millionaire. And you'll drive yourself there, like wheels come off, who cares, you'll still get there, or be an artist. That's something I truly love something and maybe you'll be one of the lucky few who makes it while you're passionate about something. So like, I know more people in the first camp, they're still trying to prove that they're enough. So how does someone release that burden? Knowing that that is part of the nature of the personality type?

Brittany Jewett 

I want to answer this in two ways. The I'm gonna put my therapists hat on and say that that is probably a deep belief of inadequacy. And I really strongly believe in therapy and helping people work through feelings of inadequacy, it comes from somewhere. Right. And I heard a great quote that said, therapists make great coaches because they know where the line is. They know when you're like talking to somebody and you're like, that's a therapeutic issue, not a coaching issue. Right. So I'm not gonna go into an organizational health consulting firms. situation where I can see the CEO needs some really deep therapy. And I'm not going to provide that. But I will say for people who are dealing with intense feelings of inadequacy, that can be fixed, that can be healed, you can experience emotional freedom and healing. And it's a really wonderful feeling. That's the first thing.

The second thing is I do like coaches, executive coaches, or life coaches, because they're solutions-focused, and might be a nice in-between with therapy. And they can ask you, this is what I asked your YPO team was, before I give you five hard skills of what Nick can go take away, to not take on people's energies, I want to know why you do it in the first place. I want to know what you're thinking about it. And if you don't take on their energy, then what does that mean? And I want you to do some internal reflection on that. Because then you realize where your motivation lies, and once you realize where your motivation lies, then you can change. And that's when we can get talking into that skill set. Which is there is a ton of energy work out there that you could do multiple times a day. It's really resetting the body and resetting and being like taking yourself truly from your brain back into your body. And breathing. Or doing yoga, facilitating that mind-body connection. 10 times out of 10 will always help you release some energy that you've taken on to be your own. There are a lot of loving kindness meditations.

And I know this is really hard for people who don't experience a lot of gentleness toward themselves. Some of these loving kindness meditations actually encourage you to literally say the name of the thing that you're holding on to and release it and let it go. And it's a practice, but it helps. You know, it helps over time. It's like building a muscle. Nobody's gonna start a meditation practice a guided meditation practice and be like, Wow, that was that was wonderful. Everyone's That was terrible. It doesn't make it wrong.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, I mean, my personal experience in this and again, I've done a lot of meditation, a lot of therapy, a lot of all different types of stuff, like coaching, you name it. What I found is for me, when we create more awareness, it's actually really shitty for a while, because I'm like, now I feel all my feelings, like I didn't want to feel all that stuff. I've spent decades stuffing that down. And I feel it. But I guess that's when I get to get to work, right? Like, now I have the clarity to be able to do something about it. So I guess it does get better before it gets worse generally.

Brittany Jewett 

Yeah, well, let me tell you, that is true for organizational health and leadership development. There are there's a ton of research out there about how teams get together, they decide they're going to do this thing together, they're going to be more transparent. They're going to do the five dysfunctions of a team. They're going to just really do the organizational health thing. And they start saying the things. And they just start unearthing the things and they go. And they tank, like, and then they go, Oh, my gosh, this was the worst idea ever. Please go back into our offices and pretend like none of this existed. This isn't work.

This is therapy, like what did I did come to sign up for therapy. And it's just like, it's not therapy. You know, nobody wants you to do group therapy at work. Nobody wants your boss to be your therapist. No one wants that. But getting all the information on the table does help you make better decisions. And when you make better decisions, and you have more trust and transparency and alignment, things slowly start to come back up, then you start to perform. And then you start to get the outcomes that you're looking for. But it is a common thing. It's a common thing in couples counseling, you go to couples counseling, and you think this, my marriage is so much worse than it was before until it starts getting better.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, that's I mean, sitting with this comfort, that's like a theme of what I talk about so much on this podcast, because it's something I'm just terribly bad at. Yeah, I'm like, This feels not good. Let me go get into action or suit or find some other way to deal with it. But it actually is really nice to hear that it's nice to set that expectation of you know, I think we all I would assume most leaders of organizations, most people in general have that gut instinct of something's not right here. And I'm afraid to go and poke at anything because the narrative I grew up with was like, Don't poke around in my mind, because if you do, you're just making things worse, like it's better for you to stay out of my head and then that initial experience of these conversations validates that fear. Yeah, and it's like my brakes on that's why I said we weren't going to do this, but it's nice to hear. It's like you just got to stick out that first part. And then the gifts come a little bit down the road. So yeah, delayed gratification for the win once again.

Brittany Jewett 

And Nik, your team will only be as vulnerable as you are. Any, any team will only be as vulnerable as a CEO is. And so if we have CEOs who are just fundamentally uncomfortable with feelings, then they're gonna have a hard time building that trust.

Nik Tarascio 

Well, let's, let's challenge that a bit. Because this scares the shit out of me. Right? What you're saying right now is like, I want to be more vulnerable. I want to open up more, but I have had some people say like, Hey, maybe that's too much. Maybe people don't want to follow someone who's airing all their shit. And so like, how can someone be vulnerable without dumping or creating a feeling of like, I can't follow this person's lead. They're so messed up.

Brittany Jewett 

Yeah, I would say acknowledge the nuance that there are and trust your gut, there are some moments where it is better to refrain. But there is a gray area, there is no black and white answer to that, like, there's always going to be nuance. And I think leaders should really trust their gut, and what they need to share. In the context of organizational health and leadership development, what you're really getting at is being vulnerable. In psychological safety, I'm not sure it's up to you how close you are I can, we can have people listening here who say that their workplace is like a family, and that they have friends who will be lifelong friends from work, where they feel comfortable talking about stuff that's more personal, and can also have somebody listening here who's like, I would never share personal things, I don't trust these people.

So the answer to that I think, is more in the psychological safety field where it's like, your vulnerability needs to look like I made a mistake. That was the wrong call. Like, I put this in this place, I made this decision. without consulting you, I wrote that email and stepped on your toes, and it was not the right thing to do. So it's being humble in your vulnerability, and being able to say that, I don't get it right all the time. And so I'm not going to be sitting here pressuring you to get this work right all the time, oh, you have a sick kid, or this is going on in your personal life, and you're having a really terrible day, same here, you know, I give you kind of some of that space for that. So if you are curious where that line is, start pushing the needle on psychological safety a little bit, being vulnerable with your mistakes, and see how people react. If you notice that, and then after that your people are still holding that cards really close to their chest, you might have a trust problem.

Nik Tarascio 

That's really helpful. Because my mind immediately goes to like, I want to tell people about all of my insecurities versus like, no, maybe I just tell them about mistakes I've made. I like that a lot of saying, Let me own my mistakes in front of them to show like, I'm not this perfect. I'm not this perfect human. Although I think in a lot of ways that was the way I came up was, I almost need to be showing up in a way of almost inhuman, I've been told before that they were like, I mean, this was 10 years ago when I was just figuring a lot of this stuff out. But some of the employees were like, you're you're not even like a person.

You're like this robot who shows up and a high performance, no mistakes, every checking every box. Like you'd never get upset, or I never thought you'd would get angry because I wanted more from the team. But I would never be like, Oh, I messed up. So it's interesting to see that a lot of that was the fear. And even now, it's like, there are times where, because of personal stuff, I do get burnt out. I mean, I'm probably always burnt out. But like I really get to the point where I can't perform. And then I'm so afraid to tell the team that that's where I am. So instead I show up half-assed, and then they're like, oh, Nick's checked out and doesn't care about the company. I'm like, no, no, I care about the company. I'm just suffering in my personal life, and I can't even bring it up. Because it's not safe for me to say,

Brittany Jewett 

Yeah, and I think that's fair. If it's your personal life, that's fair. If you you know, there's a difference between sharing all of your insecurities and one of your insecurities. You know, there's a difference between airing all the things that are going on in your personal life versus saying, like, I am super overwhelmed, I imagine you all must be to, you know, and give people a follow up to your behavior. You know, if you're starting to feel like oh, they're seeing me a little checked out. Give them some feedback and commentary about maybe like, what are you going to do to check back in if they've said something like that? You know, I think that point when we get so burned out, we can't even speak like put words together. We need to really take time away like and I mean, a way away. No phone, I'm sorry. No phone, and no email and drop into your body and become you know, a human being again, so that you can breathe and find the words again to like, be a little bit more functional for your health and wellness and Um, but yeah, that that, that dark space is really hard to speak in and to speak to and to even offer feedback for somebody. So that resonates with me.

Nik Tarascio 

I tried to do something yesterday that was relatively new for me. I tried to eat lunch without the TV on without touching my phone. Yeah, it was very hard. Yeah, it was very hard. It was like the like that practice alone, I thought would be really helpful. I can't remember if that's something that you had mentioned of like, taking an actual lunch break. So I was, I don't know if it was because I knew I was interviewing you today. But yesterday that just literally popped into my head was like, God eat lunch without distraction. Like, really taste your food, take your time. And I think I picked my phone up no less than six times. And like, click the button on the side? And I'm like, no, no, put it down. So it's an amazing practice, it was really interesting to see how I forced the moment and I didn't even say forest, I created a space for presence, that would have otherwise just been total distraction.

Brittany Jewett 

Yeah. And that's what we talked about with the YPO group was like, don't wait for vacation to do that. Don't wait for the weekend, you could do that five times a day. You know, I even work with somebody who gets very overstimulated by like bright lights and loud noises. And to me that signals, your whole nervous system needs to turn off. And they started curling into a ball blank, you know, blanket black over their eyes, no phone, no light for five minutes in their office twice a day. And it's just like, I can be human. And that has helped sane people throughout the day, there's so much coming out about people like using cots as chairs. Now, there's just so much trending online about people taking naps and just turning turning down the volume a little bit. But overall, what I always get from that is like, Well, when I wake up, the problem is still gonna be there. And when I come back from lunch, it's still gonna have I'm still gonna have 70 emails. Well, we either one thing we talk about in social work is we either change the delivery of services, or the staffing we do a lot of analysis on can the work that we do change? Can you figure out how to cope within this environment? Or do you need to move on? And I don't think those are three hard and fast buckets. But that's where leadership team leadership team coaching comes in is that I really do think leadership teams can redesign their environments in ways that help people thrive and flourish and not run themselves into the ground.

Nik Tarascio 

And so is that mostly, like when you look at what your company does? Is it mostly working with teams or individuals? Teams? Okay. And is it I know, it's, you know, from what I read in your bio, it's mostly focused on nonprofits do you do work with for profits as well?

Brittany Jewett 

I've done a couple of for profit companies. Yeah. And the design work that we're talking about has predominantly been with nonprofits. Because our work is so draining and fast, or nonprofits, there's so many different types of nonprofits, I just say social services. But yeah, with the work can be so draining similar with healthcare environments that GO GO, GO GO GO is present. But there's an issue of not being paid like an underpayment. And for the time that you're going in, you're so so tired, because you're absorbing a lot of crises, and a lot of other people's pain. So burnout is crazy there. And that's why redesigning things, shifting things around looking at different sources of funding and getting really creative with how you deliver services to people is one of the primary services that we offer.

Nik Tarascio 

Okay, I think I told you this when we first spoke that most aviation companies don't make money. So technically speaking, my industry is nonprofit. So I think that means my whole industry qualifies as clients of yours. Yes. And it's Go Go, go, go go. It's absorbing a lot of people's pain, ask any flight attendant. Yeah, so hopefully, you could support our industry because we really could use the balance. I think that, you know, really, really getting to the heart of it. It's one of the hardest things about the work we do. And I don't know how much I told you about this before. But we, you know, we do things like organ transport, we fly doctors to go harvest organs to save lives. You know, everyone's kind of pushing the limits. They're not home for long periods. They're working through the middle of the night when everyone is on vacation, they're working because we provide all those services. It's really been a goal of mine to say how do we build the company that, like we as a leadership team would actually want to work for that really sees the value in people and doesn't just say like, you're a pilot, you're an asset, we could drive you to the limit the way we drive, you know, the maximum hours on a plane.

So I think I think In a lot of ways, like, this is my cry for help. It's like I think our industry has done such a terrible job of taking care of the people. And I mean, even as we're talking, I'm like really inspired to say, how do we find more ways for someone like you to come in and support us and look at the way we do things? So I'm sure there'll be a follow-up on my end of saying, like, yeah, let me show you how duty schedules work. And I'm sure they're in the medical field, it's probably the same thing. It's doctors going out to harvest organs or going for 20 hours straight. 24 hours straight sometimes. Right. But to that end, I am curious about your company. So what does the name mean?

Brittany Jewett 

Yeah, it's an interesting name. And I get this question a lot. And it's B renouveau. The B is for breath. And then we're Novo is for renewed. It means renewal in Latin. And it is, the name actually embodies the moment that we stop, and like slow down enough to take a moment to center ourselves bright before we start that path of renewal. And the breath is so vital to preventing and becoming resilient toward emotional exhaustion and burnout, that I was like, I tried all these different ways. I was like, I need to get this in my name somehow, because I think the breath is our greatest friend, and it's our greatest teacher.

But we always forget that there is this moment, right before we decide to change that starts us on a path toward organizational health, organizational change, individual personal development, a career change, there's a moment that we have to stop and say to ourselves, this is not working. And my name honors that. And the company's name embodies that moment. Because we go back to that multiple times, when things get really difficult as the motivation and the source that's going to keep it why did you start this journey in the first place? Right? Why did you start change and renewal in the first place? You knew something had to change?

Nik Tarascio 

I mean, it's, I'm intrigued, because it's also, like, really good timing. I just started breathwork. Practice. And yeah, I'm also trying to find a way for me, the breathwork practice that I'm doing is really more about getting into witness consciousness. Like I'm trying to say, like, Yes, I can be in my pain, I can be in my suffering, I could be in my struggle. But if I could just create a little bit of space that I can witness myself in that pain, witness myself and that struggle, then I actually can do something about it. They say, like, Where's that coming from? Or what is causing it? So I think that's really cool that you're talking about that. I wonder is there I mean, you know, for people that are curious about breath practices, and I know, like meditation has been peddled at us for, you know, a long time now. And a lot of people are not sold on it yet. What breath practices do you recommend for people that are saying I do want to start there, and I want to connect more to myself, and I want to find those tools to downregulate in the moment, is there any body of breathwork study that you recommend,

Brittany Jewett 

Um, I will always start with a 478. Like, it's called Box breathing. And I definitely know you have listeners who are like not 478, there's 478, and then box breathing, but I was one of those people. And that's why I keep commenting on it. I had my own experience of burnout, and, and trying to start, like healing from all of that was so like, everything it was like nothing is going to take away this over. No little small step is going to take away this overarching problem. But for some reason, I just kept showing up, even though I wasn't feeling like a big impact, doing box breathing. There are a lot of breath work, you know, I'm all about like, giving toward people who are kind of up and coming. But there are a lot of breathwork facilitators who are offering a $5 session on Instagram Thursday at two o'clock, right? You look at your schedule, you're like, look, I'm available at two. And I'm gonna go over to Instagram, there's a ton of breathwork on the Insight Timer. And 478 Breathing is the breathwork that general practitioners often give people when they are stressed out. So that's probably where I would start. Just feeling what it's like to pay attention to your breath. Even if you do that for two minutes, just experience what that's like.

Nik Tarascio 

I'm actually curious as 478 like four in hold for seven out for a

Brittany Jewett 

yes, yes. Okay. Yeah.

Nik Tarascio 

Okay, cool. Sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off.

Brittany Jewett 

It's important when you feel thoughts to just acknowledge them and kind of just let them know and not judge yourself for them coming through. You know, that's going to be something that helps you build this ability to nurture yourself. And I know we've talked about this before. There's a difference between self care and self nourishment in our nourishment is The things that we do as a ritual that keep us healthy, that make us feel mentally healthy, that keep us grounded and centered. So we feel like we're actually nourishing and feeding ourselves in a sustainable way. And there are rituals that we eventually can't live without self care sometimes starts to feel like a list that you're given. Just go take a bath and go do this one thing, this one thing. And I think when you get even more things for your list, then you become even more burdened. So starting to think of tools, as a thing that you need to survive is going to be a better approach than think, thinking of it as something that you need to do.

Nik Tarascio 

I remember you saying that once before, and I just couldn't really anchor that like, on some level, if I believe it's something I need to do to survive. I'm assuming that like, my motivation should be much more there of like, I have to do this today. It's not even like, it's not something that I have to like, maybe if I find time, it's like, no, I must do this. Because this is a survival thing. So is that really what the spirit of that is just to raise your impetus to do so?

Brittany Jewett 

Well, when you do it, you realize you can't live without it. And that's really what we're talking about here. Right now, we're speaking about these things theoretically, as if they are on a list. But when you live them, and you're, you're in a ritual, and your mindset is committed to this, like there is nothing more important in this moment, that for me to stop, slow down, and whether it's for you, it's eat, with nothing going on. There's nothing more important in this moment, because I need this, to turn the lights off and curl into a ball like, that is what I need to be doing. When you do it, you get the fruit of it repeatedly if you do it over and over. And I think that's that's really the impetus is you receive from what you're pouring into yourself. And I would like to say to people that they're worth stopping and slowing down.

Nik Tarascio 

So how does all of this relate to fulfillment? Given that I think most of the people that are driving themselves as hard as as hard as I am, when I say the promise, that's what I'm really talking about. I'm like, somewhere on the other side of me, just dragging myself across the street at a million miles an hour, there's going to be this moment of like, I could finally breathe, and it's enough and I feel it all in my heart and everything's amazing.

Brittany Jewett 

Or you could turn on the podcast off and die right now have a heart attack. And I know that that's not unlike you might not want to put that on. But that is really my first gut reaction. Is that like, what we have right now is what is in front of us. And if if I'm looking at Nick right now, and it's like, you are a ball of stress, and you're a ball of striving, everything in the future doesn't really even exist. And I'm not talking to you in a way of like, I'm kind of loaded up person. And I just like, go with the wind. I'm very driven and very ambitious. I do think of the future I think of my own promised land. But I will not let it kill me. I see that's not a tool. I'm not giving you a tangible skill. That's a thought. That's my mindset. I'm not letting the future kill me, I'm not going to tear myself into knots. Thinking about this problem absorbing this person's energy taking this issue on when it's not my issue, the future really doesn't exist. And the way we think about the future, and the Promised Land is something that we need to do some real digging on.

Nik Tarascio 

Well, let's stay there for a second because it is something that you've done on like, you know, I've spoken to a lot of people and I'm like, give me all the nuggets, give me all the nuggets that I could consume, and then keep running ahead while watching television. Right? It's, it's really cool to hear you keep going back to none of this shit matters unless the mindset is right. Right? Like it really doesn't matter. Because I think in the same way, it's like, oh, you could exercise and eat well, because you hate yourself. Right? You could like you could totally shame yourself into doing things that appear to be healthy and for, you know, again, for self care. It really sounds like it is this powerful. Like to me this is the witness consciousness is why am I doing anything I'm doing? Am I doing it? Because I'm not enough? Am I doing it because I deserve everything? Yeah. And I really I really appreciate that reminder.

Brittany Jewett 

Yeah. I also like I really, I think the self introspection and self awareness is really, really good. But the purpose of it is emotional freedom. Right? It's that we do something with it to where we you know, when we examine our thoughts and examine our mind and our motivations, it's so that we can make a decision from that that will help us thrive. Whether it is leave the job change, you know, change the way we do the job, or ask for ask for more help something else that we might need. But really, this don't We don't want be in a state of like, endless self introspection and do nothing with it. You know, this idea that we're like, I know, I'm burned out, and I'm gonna Google CEO burnout and come up with this list. I mean, good luck. Go, go try to do the list before you actually interrogate yourself. And when you interrogate yourself, then try to take some steps towards it.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, I think you're absolutely hitting it on the head, I'm usually very fast to do exactly that thing. Like, oh, look at me, I'm so self aware, I'm gonna go make a list and then create an Asana project, and then also tell, you know, my team to support me in this and tell my partner to hold me accountable. And it's like, oh, I just created a whole other responsibility thing for me to do. And it didn't create any space for the thought. So, yeah, I think that's I think that's really powerful. I mean, of all the, of all the mindsets, or the ways to view oneself, is there anything we haven't touched on yet that you're like, it is another important mindset to come from, as you think of unwinding yourself from, like the concept of a human doing versus a human being?

Brittany Jewett 

Yeah, and a human machine versus a human being? Yeah, I love that. You know, I really think that there are some folks who can easily put $1 amount on everything that they do this amount of time, if I grind this hard, I won't miss this opportunity. If I connect with this person, if I do this, then my career's going to be like this. And they can put $1 amount on everything. And I just wouldn't encourage people to put $1 amount on your health, and your emotional freedom, your mental health and your emotional freedom, there is a cost. You know, when you don't tend to yourself, there's a cost there. You don't know where it's gonna show up. You don't want it's going to catch up to you. And it's not really, I'm not sending out like a red flag doom and gloom warning. But I am saying it's something to consider how much you know, time with your family financially is worth and how much time with yourself personally, caring for yourself is worth. And it's very rarely factored in to our equations.

Nik Tarascio 

Well, I feel very well sized up today. Thank you for Thank you for seeing me, even if I didn't want to be seen.

Honest, yeah, no,

Nik Tarascio 

my pleasure. It's, I feel like this is pointless if I'm not, right, at the end of the day, I really, I imagine there's a lot of people that experienced the same stuff. And I'm always happy to throw myself under the bus anytime I get a chance. Self love for the win. But yeah. I'm curious to know, as we as we kind of come to the close of the episode, given all that you've done, given how I mean, you just have such a wealth of knowledge that anytime we've spoken, you just always have such. I love that you don't even answer my questions. You're like, that's a bad question. This is this is really how you really got I don't know, you don't say it that way you say with compassion, but I respect that you're like, I'm not going to take the bait. I'm actually going to answer what I think I really hear is coming up here. So I mean, I just feel like you're, you're so accomplished. You're helping so many people from where you are today. What is your dream beyond? What do you wake up thinking like, I can't wait to see this happen?

Brittany Jewett 

Yeah, I'm so excited to turn b.Renovo into like a two-fold practice. And I think that the work that I do is in a cycle, you know, we have organizational health and leadership development at the top with skilled people at the bottom, going into fulfilling lives, and we're all just in this cycle when you're taking care of the top, you're taking care of your people. And I plan to grow this business into something where we're really, really taking care of people who are often not taken care of like our teachers, our social workers, our health care, frontline people, and our forgotten folks. So I really am interested in making sure that people who are the bosses of those folks are growing in their own personal journey and organizational health.

Nik Tarascio 

Well, thank you for helping support me in mine. I'm always, I'm always inspired whenever we talk. And if, if you too, are inspired by what Brittany is talking about, you could check out be renouveau.com We'll leave you know, we'll have all the links and show notes. And again, really, the work she's doing is incredible. It's organizational health and professional development, also life and career coaching. I would probably say I need all of those things. So go check out our website. And again, I'm just so grateful to just watch your journey and, and have like an incredible resource to help me make sense of mine.

Brittany Jewett 

Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

Nik Tarascio 

All right. Take care. Thank you for listening to the dream beyond. I hope that you received whatever message or inspiration you were meant to get from today's episode. I had a great time recording it for you. If you love the show, please take 30 seconds to subscribe rate and review it. That really helps get the word out. And if you want to connect with me you can find me at

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[the-dream-beyond]

Episode 17: "The Future of Work: Exploring the Portfolio Career with Christina Wallace"

Christina Wallace 

You know, there are some people that are really afraid to try something for fear that, you know, they'll lose all their money. And I find this particularly true of people who grew up with resources. Because they internally, they'll never say this out loud. But internally, they fear. I grew up with someone else's money, I started my career with someone else's money. And if I lose it all, I don't know if I can build it back.

Nik Tarascio 

So if there's any part of you, that feels called to more than what you have, right, whether it's I'm in this career, but there are other things I really want to do with my life, or there are other areas of pursuit, or I was creative when I was younger musician, and I didn't pursue that thing. Obviously, that's my story. This next guest is really going to touch on why it's so important to give ourselves that permission to be, as she would call it, the human Venn diagram, the multi-hyphenate, the many things that we want to do to give ourselves that permission to follow some of that excitement and curiosity and find that joy in our lives. I hope you really enjoy it.

Welcome to the dream beyond. I'm your host, Nik Tarascio. I'm a CEO, musician, and overall seeker of Truth, inspiration, and simply put, how to live the most fulfilling life possible. Growing up surrounded by extremely wealthy and successful people gave me unique and unfiltered perspectives of those who have seemingly made it through on the dream beyond, we're letting you in on what it really takes to achieve your dreams. What happens when it turns out your destination isn't the promised land, you are expecting how to process the lessons from your past while mapping of course to true fulfillment. Let's get started.

Thanks for listening today. And I'm here with a self-described human Venn diagram. She has crafted a career at the intersection of business tech in the arts. She's also a senior lecturer at Harvard Business School, what a flex where she teaches entrepreneurship and marketing. She's also an author, serial entrepreneur, co co-host of the podcast, the limit does not exist. And she's a singer that's near and dear to my heart and adventure. Please welcome Christina Wallace to the show. Thanks for being here, Christina.

Christina Wallace 

Thanks for having me. I'm so thrilled.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, I'm really, really curious about this topic of what your book is about. And again, I, I just recently found out about this book, The Portfolio Life, and I'm gonna see if I could say the whole time whole title, how to future-proof your career, avoid burnout and build a life bigger than your business card like this speaks so to my heart, and I want to kind of go back in time too as someone that now has, I think you refer to it as the multi-hyphenate. What did you want to be when you were a child? And you thought about like, this is what I want to be when I grow up? What was that for you?

Christina Wallace 

I only really remember being asked this question once in the fourth grade. And I remember very clearly my answer, because it it strained credulity of the adults around me, I said, I wanted to be a professor, and author, president, and an astronaut, all at the same time. This was crucial. I didn't want to do this consecutively. I wanted to have all four of these careers at the same time. Unfortunately, I mean, I've hit the first two professor and author checks. However I applied to be an astronaut years ago through the NASA astronaut candidate program and was rejected. So I'm sorry to say, this life dream is not happening.

Nik Tarascio 

That's horrible. Why did they reject you? Do they give you any reason?

Christina Wallace 

They didn't. I mean, at the time they had, they had recently opened their candidacy. I mean, for the most part, they prefer like PhDs right? Across the sciences, the stem, PhD is sort of the preference, but they had relaxed the education requirement for a while when they were encouraging STEM Educators to apply. So you didn't have to have a PhD, you could apply with just a master's, or even just a bachelor's degree with, you know, equivalent experience. And at the time, I was running a program for girls in computer science, based at the Muse, American Museum of Natural History. And so I was a computer science educator, and I thought, ah, you know, I sort of qualify under this new rubric. But alas, I was not chosen and they didn't tell me why.

Nik Tarascio 

That's horrible and death of a dream I imagined but you still have time

Christina Wallace 

to go get that PhD and then the LASIK surgery because I have terrible eyesight and then you know, there's there's a couple of hurdles to going to Mars at this point, I'm afraid. Yeah.

Nik Tarascio 

And so like, you in fourth grade, I already had this sense of there's many things I want to do again, at the same time, which I love. How did you like how did you find guidance? Or how did people show up in your life when you would share that? What kind of feedback would you get? Would you get that you should only focus on one thing like that's not really how the world works like, What did you say? variants of that process.

Christina Wallace 

I mean, for the most part, I was this precocious kid, I went to a very small private school that I was, you know, two to three years advanced from my classmates in every subject. And so the school was not prepared to deal with that. And so for the most part, just like sent me to the corner with textbooks from the grades ahead and said, teach herself. And so it sort of, I don't know, it fit into my overall vibe, which is like, oh, that Christina, roll your eyes, but at the same time are kind of like if anyone's gonna do it. It'll be her, you know, so they didn't dissuade me exactly. But there was also this like, yeah, yeah, that's cute. And I think it was in two parts, one because of just maybe the ridiculousness of my aspirations. And two, because I grew up in a working class community in the middle of Michigan, like, it would have been as ridiculous to say, I want to go to Harvard, as I would have said, to say, I want to go to Mars, right? Like both of those things were not within the scope of the dreams that most of the kids that I grew up with had so. So I think for the most part, they're kind of like, that's cute. She has big dreams. And at some point, she'll, she'll realize how the world works. And we'll let someone else burst that bubble. Little did they know, the bubble never burst.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, I mean, I'm just amazed. I was really curious, as I was thinking about what I was gonna ask you, I did not expect you to have an answer like that I expected something completely left field be like, No, I already knew I was multi hyphenate. That's kind of my identity. And like, so tell us more about like, kind of the high level of the concept of the portfolio life in the first place? Where did that come from? What's the message you want to send to people?

Christina Wallace 

Yeah, so I had this idea before I came to business school kind of growing up in a world without a financial safety net, without much of a safety net of any kind. Particularly when my first career being in the performing arts, in the nonprofit arts world. I had this feeling from early on that I needed to be multidisciplinary, I needed to have multiple irons in the fire, in order to sort of be my own safety net to to be prepared, if something fell apart, if I got fired, if I got laid off, if a if a show I got cast in never ended up happening, right? Like, I needed to have multiple bets in play, because I didn't really have a safety net any other way. And then I got to business school. And I learned about portfolio theory, which was not something I was exposed to growing up. But the premise, you know, the premise of portfolio theory is, you have a mix of assets that have different risk, different return profiles, and you design that mix, depending on this season of life you're in, right.

So when you're young, and you can take a ton of risk, you tend to have a lot of money in stocks and very little money in cash or bonds or, or fixed income securities. And then as you get older, when you need to be taking less risk, when you need more certainty in your cashflows, then you rebalance that portfolio allocation to be less risky, more stable. And I it was just this like aha moment of number one, we never expect you to put all your money in one basket from an investing point of you. So why are we teaching people to put their whole career on one trajectory, especially given the amount of change that we are experiencing our generation, certainly younger people from us, the amount of change that we are experiencing? Is is a little bit like unfathomable. It's like every five years, there's like a once in 100 year event, and you're like, can we just stop for a hot second. And so and so to have that diversification, is kind of the only way to be prepared for this sort of predictable unpredictability of the world. But also, there's this element of rebalancing as you go through these chapters of your life, the seasons, what you need changes for these different stages. And so there might be a season where you say, I'm single, I'm young, I can take big risks. No one's depending on me.

Let's go and do something crazy. And then you might have a season or like, actually, what I value the most is control over my time, predictability, flexibility, I have people who need me I have other responsibilities. That's what I'm going to optimize for. And so this notion that you can take this mix of activities, paid work, yes, but also all the other things in your life. And really be intentional about how you design it for the season you're in. I think that was the moment that I was like this. This is a model forget work life balance work is in the context of your life. Think about a portfolio instead.

Nik Tarascio 

I liked that a lot. And it's something that again, I've never heard the concept of For. And my mind immediately goes to like the permission. I never gave myself to do that. I mean, it was more, I think like people would make fun of it or make little jokes if like, Oh, it's so cute. Nick has a music thing he's trying to do, trying to run the aviation business as a pilot and mechanic. And it was just like, yeah, you just have a focus issue, and I really was curious to understand from you is, as you encourage people to consider that path. How do you help people navigate what is too much and not enough?

Christina Wallace 

Yeah, it's a great question. So on the too much side, I think there's a natural point, as you start to diversify, I'm confident you have felt this moment, I certainly have many times, where like, there's too many balls in the air, like you're juggling all the pieces. And either just total, it's too much, or just one of them becomes really unpredictable, or super variable, or like there's a surge, right. And, and collectively, the whole system feels the stress feels the strain, like you're not sleeping, you're constantly running through the to do list and you're like, how am I going to squeeze this in, and if I just skip that meal, then maybe I can get this rehearsal, you know, like, the whole thing doesn't work.

And so on the too much side, I think there's a natural tinkering, that you're gonna have to go through as you start to build out your portfolio of like, Hmm, I think I still have some capacity here. But it can't be a thing. That is, you know, every Tuesday night, from seven to 10, it has to be something that is maybe a little more under my control, I can squeeze it in whenever I have some space, right? So there's both like a commitment piece and a cadence piece of as you're kind of putting the pieces together. And that just requires some tinkering, especially when you go through these changes in your seasons of life, where like you used to be able to balance it all. And now as I do, I have two small children. They're one and three years old, and they are constantly sick. Constantly. Thank you daycare plague. And so even though you know, even when they're sick, I can I can stay home with them. I can, you know, put on Sesame Street or some other show. And I'd still write like, but I I have to be in control of when I pull that ripcord and say, okay, clear my schedule, I got to work from home today. So, so you start to kind of like tinker with that. On the on the not enough side. It's sort of to your point about permission that you give yourself, right? A lot of this starts from the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. And this is why this all starts from and I outlined these kind of four pillars of the portfolio life, it starts from a place of identity. This is what I describe myself as a human Venn diagram. That is, that is been how I introduce myself, that has been how I talk to myself for over a decade.

Because if you start with Well, I'm a pilot, you've already told yourself, I don't have permission to go play guitar. I don't have permission to start a podcast, like why would a pilot have a podcast right? So but if you start you're with like, I'm an adventurer, I'm a connector, I'm a storyteller. I like to see new things and like find ways to mash up new ideas, like you're pulling your identity up a level, to be a lot more about how you see the world, or what you have to offer when you enter a room. And that opens up permission to yourself to say, Yeah, I I can add that to my portfolio that is consistent with who I am and what I care about and the kind of impact I want to have on the world. That's not me being flaky, or can't make up my mind that's like no, that is who I am. So this it starts from excavating in many cases, the things about ourselves we might have put away because we needed to grow up and look serious, bringing them back out, flesh out your Venn diagram and then look for those opportunities those intersections to say no I and I'm this and I'm that it's not an OR and just play

Nik Tarascio 

that's I mean there's the permission piece there is so hard for me as you're saying it it's just the amount of people again I just think like there's a there's a shame component that comes along with it because I imagined that it's really scary for someone to hear Wait a minute if you can be multi hyphenate maybe I could have been too but I gave up on myself a long time ago. And just your very existence shakes me to the core and makes me regret my life. Like I the amount of people that hear justify, well, you don't understand I really had to just focus on this. Like I'm wondering do you get people that resist this concept when you tell them? Oh for sure.

Christina Wallace 

Because there is that element of like crap, I made the wrong choice. And my my response to them is like You're not dead yet. Like, literally unless you're dead, it's not too late, you can always make a change starting today. And, and I feel like there's so there's this drawing that I got permission to include in the book, I love this, this graphic, it's from an illustrator who blogs under Wait, wait, but why on Instagram and on Twitter. And it's this idea of like, the different paths you could have taken in life, right? So you start with like this one.on, the day you're born, and then growing out of this data, all of these different options.

And it highlights the path that was chosen kind of all the way to this point of today, there's like this little, you know, vertical line, here's where we are today. And if you look back, you see all the paths you didn't choose, which is where a lot of people spend their time looking, they look at what could have been, but they didn't go that path. What I love about this drawing is starting from this one single.of where you are today, just as many lines kind of spin out of where that person is today, the choices you still have ahead of you. The options that are still available to you are just as plentiful as the lives that you didn't lead. But you have to have that perspective, you have to have the ability to see the options still ahead. And I'll give you a great example of this. My best friend Catherine Jennings, I include her in the book. She in high school in early college years, she grew up in the South, she grew up in Tennessee, and wanted a family.

Obviously, a woman had this perception of what it meant to be a working woman with a family in the south. And so decided kind of early on, she wanted to be a doctor but decided, you know, it makes more sense for me to be a teacher that seems consistent with the story of this life I want. And so she studied biology, she got her master's in teaching, and she spent the first decade of her career as a middle school biology teacher. And she was excellent at it. And after about seven or eight years, she was first in Knoxville, where she grew up after about seven, eight years, she was starting to get a little bit frustrated with teaching in an under resourced public school situation. She thought, Okay, let me just try a different context. Maybe that's where the friction I'm feeling is. And so she moved to Brooklyn, she moved to New York. And and we got to live together again, we were college roommates. So we've known each other a lifetime at this point.

And she moved to Brooklyn and started working at a private school, very fancy private school, and where she had all of the resources and all of the support. And she again, was amazing at it. But she still felt that friction. And finally after like one, you know, too many yoga retreats finally was like, I know what that friction is, it's that I wanted to be a doctor and I sold myself short. And then the very next thing Kat did, rather than beat herself up over the fact that she could have been a doctor and was not going to be, she started looking into options to become a doctor. And at 36, she quit her teaching job and went to medical school at Columbia. And she's graduating in two weeks to be an OBGYN, and got a top tier residency at the University of Pennsylvania where she will be 40 as she starts her new career, but she had this incredible perspective of like, I'm not dead yet. I still want this 12 years later, I still want this. So how can I make that possible.

And in between all of this, she realized, I can still have a family. She got married, her wife is following her to Philadelphia, and they have all of these all these different models for how they could have a family. But it required opening that perspective of it's not too late. And what other options do we have for this thing we say we want other than the obvious straight line, traditional path. That is the bias we probably all start from.

Nik Tarascio 

I mean, I was about to poke the bear here. And I wonder if I should do this, but I'll do it anyway. Because that's generally how I go. I'm wondering about the correlation between like, what I hear a lot of is that there's a chance to like fall into the hedonic treadmill of like novelty seeking, like there's like that's like the dark side of this, like, what if I go into that side, and I also imagine that like in the same way people have a, a mono relationship to work. I think a lot of people have a mono relationship to relationships. And so I'm wondering how going down this road, you know, do you see that people that are multi hyphenate also show up that way in relation because as you were talking about this woman, cat and kind of how she's figured out like, hey, we need to question the structure so that I can still make this possible to have a family and still pursue being a doctor. Yeah, like that. Is this novelty seeking at the end of the day? Is this like a lot of what drives this? Is this like a necessary ingredient for fulfillment?

Christina Wallace 

I wouldn't call it novelty seeking. But I do think you're right that once you start questioning, so playbook that you were handed as a child, and that you were socialized into as a young adult. It sets off some bells, where you might be feeling friction in other parts where you say, maybe this, you know, lifelong monogamy, maybe that doesn't fit. Maybe that's why I keep having frictions in relationships. Maybe there is a polyamory are a portfolio approach to partnerships that would suit me as well. And I actually talk about that in the book, I've had a number of folks reach out and say, This is the first serious book I've ever come across that acknowledges the polyamory might be a model that fits people. And I think it's that same permission. You know, it's funny that you, you ask this as though like, but what happens if you question one thing, and it reminds me what I when I, you know, I was in therapy many, many years ago, I love therapy, I highly recommend it.

But I was in therapy, I had an eating disorder in high school, I was all I was I have this very complicated relationship to food. And I always had these moments with my therapist, where I was like, if I give on this one thing, and allow myself to splurge on calories, and this one meal, this one snack, this one thing, it'll just spin out of control, and I'll just gain, you know, 1000 pounds, and it will, it will all be over and she's like, do you really believe that? Do you really believe that if you give yourself a little bit of compassion and flexibility that you are incapable of recognizing, what is the right amount for you? And I think it's the same thing that that people who fear that flexibility say, well, first you question jobs. And then you're gonna question monogamy and what next? You're like, are you know, are you just are you really that afraid of, for the most part, looking in the mirror? And seeing who you really are? And what you really want? Like, is that what scares you? And you're using these, these structures as an excuse?

Not to figure out what's it at the core of what you need? I do think maybe there is a risk of this novelty seeking. But it starts from a place of what do you need? What do you need? And what do you want? Those are the two questions that starts this exercise. What do you need for this chapter of life? And what do you want? And, and not just what do you want out of your job? What do you want out of your life? When you get to your deathbed? Who do you want to have loved? What do you want to have seen? What imprint Do you want left in the world on the day you leave it and get specific I make you write out 100 of these wishes in the book everyone can do about 3035, I press you to do 100 Because you start realizing all of the crazy shit that you didn't even have the guts to write down in the privacy of your own room. And that is when you start to really uncover. I want these things. And I'm not doing anything in the current version of my portfolio to drive any closer to those things. Yeah, and that's where it gets a little scary.

Nik Tarascio 

I'm glad we went there. Because that's really, I'm very pro, like, figure out all the things you want and figure out how to have them in your life. But there is like, I'm reacting to that inner shame voice that has really been the thing that has anchored me. It's all the people in my life that said, you don't even know how good you have it, you should be so grateful for what you have. And you know, again, look at where you grew up in the world. There's all these starving people. And yet that's like this desire to want more, I think is one of the biggest barriers of like, I'm not allowed to have the desire of even fantasizing about what my life could be. So this idea of doing the 100 things. Yeah, sounds really interesting. Because it's like, yeah, do I even allow myself to have that many things that I want?

Christina Wallace 

Yeah, I mean, you called it exactly right. It's this shame that says, like, I should be happy for the good enough. And I think, you know, I look around at the voices that the the folks that are sort of shaping culture and politics and business, the world at large, I see a lot of really miserable people, who for the most part, have gained power as a way to to counteract their misery in my opinion. And I I think it is a radical act, to find joy, and to build a joyful life. That feels fulfilled, I think we'd have a lot less damage. If we had more joyful people, fewer miserable billionaires.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah. I mean, I would agree with that, which is, I guess it goes back to for you. Where did your permission come from? Like, I'm wondering what conditions created the ability for you to whether at such an early age, carry that all the way forward? Or maybe even find it again in your life at some point of like, Yeah, fuck it, this is what I want. And I'm only answering to me anyway.

Christina Wallace 

So a big part of it. I, you know, I've sat with this question for years, because, you know, now I'm raising two kids, I'm kind of like, okay, what, how do I do this? How do I raise them to, to have that inner voice that that says, No, this is what I care about. And I think one of the biggest contributions in my childhood was that I was an outsider, I was in a very small school, you know, like the same 12 kids and your grade for your entire education. So like, no one will forget that time you I don't know, like, pooped your pants in the second grade, right? Like, your, your, your story carries with you. And I was a total nerd. I was a little bit awkward as a lot awkward.

And I didn't have any friends. I didn't, I think my first friend I, I was 15 when I had my first friend, and it was an incredibly lonely childhood, Nancy Drew ended up being a very close friend. But what it gave me was, it gave me the confidence to just fuck it to do what I'm what I'm gonna do. Like, if they don't like me, no matter what, then I might as well just go by the beat of my own drum, right? They're not gonna like me if I try to fit in. So, so why bother. And it just gave me such independence, that when I got to my early 20s, my first job at the Metropolitan Opera, I worked, you know, six days a week for the entire season. But then in the summer, I got six weeks off. You couldn't take a day off over Christmas, but you could have six weeks off, which is unheard of when you're 22. Right. And I wanted to see the world I had never traveled anywhere. I didn't have access to that growing up.

But none of my friends had six weeks off. And so it was that that crisis moment of like, do I go by myself? Or do I lose this opportunity? I was like, Well, I didn't have friends for a long time, don't need friends to travel, and I packed a backpack and went to Europe. And the next summer I went to South America, and the next year, I went to East Africa and, and it's sort of one thing after another, I practiced being alone, I practiced making friends on the road, being in uncertain situations, and I got comfortable with discomfort, or at least maybe familiar, if not comfortable. And that familiarity, gave me freedom to try big things, and maybe fail. But to know that anything short of that was gonna be really unfulfilling.

Nik Tarascio 

That's heavy, that's heavy. I'm just like sitting with the finding, like being able to tolerate discomfort. I mean, it's a big I've talked about on on some of the other podcasts I've done. And I talk about how desire is such a hard thing for most people, because we've not been taught how to sit in it without taking action of resolving it. Whatever that thing is. It's like, Oh, I feel sexually charged. watch porn. I feel like I hate my job. I'm gonna act out and be an asshole. Like, there's just like, we generally just taking immediate action.

Is there any advice you have for people again, because I just imagine a lot of people will be excited about this concept of finding these multiple paths that could go down. But for a lot of people, it's a dark night of the soul. It's like, I'm gonna have to face like you said, all these multiple paths, and at least grieve some of the past ones before I could really focus on creating the new ones. Yeah. How did you learn to do that? Besides like putting yourself in challenging situations? Is there anything you've read? Any guidance you have for someone that says helped me learn to sit in my own discomfort?

Christina Wallace 

Yeah. So one of the opportunities I mean, this is sort of consistent with with travel, but I needed to practice it in other contexts, too. I took up long distance running. I am not a natural athlete. I'm just not and and running in particular, I'm really, really slow. So long distance running half marathons, marathons. They take me a long time. And, and I decided after my first startup failed, which was the first real failure I had ever experienced. I was 20 728 And I never failed. And then I did really publicly really painfully. And that failure was so inconsistent with my internal narrative, right? I was so smart, I was so ambitious, I was the chick who was gonna pull it off. And then I wasn't.

So I was like, well, that's contradictory data. And I don't know what to do with that. And so I decided to start running partially because it's free to run like all these other sports costs. I was like, running, I can just do with some shoes. But it gave me the chance to practice showing up and being miserable for like two and a half hours, three hours, over and over and over again. Because I really struggled with this idea of being bad at something, I struggled with the idea of like, I'm putting in the work, and it still sucks. And, and it gave me the opportunity to sort of build that muscle of being uncomfortable, of being bad and trying and over the course of that it changed my narrative to not I'm the person who succeeds, but I'm the person who shows up and works hard. And that gave me permission to try a bunch of other things that I wasn't sure I was going to succeed at. But I really wanted to try. And so I think in some ways to build that permission for yourself. And this dark night of the soul and the grieving for what you could have been, also requires facing down, like, what is it that has stopped you from trying up to this point? And it's going to be different for everybody.

But, but having a real and honest reflection about like, what is that Achilles heel? You know, there are some people that are really afraid to try something for fear that, you know, they'll lose all their money. And I find this particularly true of people who grew up with resources. Because they internally, they'll never say this out loud. But internally, they fear. I grew up with someone else's money, I started my career with someone else's money. And if I lose it all, I don't know if I can build it back. Right? And so there's this like, you have to figure out what is that thing that's preventing you from taking those risks, and then get creative and devise a way to practice that discomfort in small ways. So that you're really comfortable with it, when it when it comes time to do something big that matters?

Nik Tarascio 

That's a great answer. You're gonna You're an incredible storyteller. By the way, that's why I keep poking at you. I'm like, I'm really curious about the concepts in the book, but you just have such an amazing way of kind of telling your journey through it. And I think people really can find themselves in that. So going back to the pillars, I think I remember the first pillar you said was identity. What were the other three?

Christina Wallace 

Yeah, so optionality is the second one. And that really only comes from the moment that you can find your identity, bigger than your job title, is when it opens up all these doors and recognizing sort of in tandem with that. It's not too late. Unless you're dead, it's not too late. That's what gives you permission to see these options. Pillar three is about diversification. So this is particularly relevant given the amount of contextual disruption that is just happening in our lives. I mean, I locked in the text of this book in November of 2022, before anyone had ever heard the phrase chat GPT. And now like, every white color industry is quaking. Just really concerned about how much AI and and all of these tools are going to fundamentally re organize these industries that like if you're in law school right now, if you're in accounting school right now, you should be terrified slash, you should really be thinking about what are other ways that I might want to show up in the world because the number of lawyers that the world will need is going to shrink, the number of accountants, it's going to shrink.

So in the face of all of these disruptions, whether it's technological, geopolitical, ecological, whatever those things are, recognizing a 40 year career is never going to exist, but even a 10 year career might not be true. So what are the different ways that you can deploy your your skills, your interests, your networks, your curiosities, such that the world can do what it's going to do? And you're not going to have the rug ripped out from under you? The Because you had all of your eggs in one basket. So diversification is pillar number three. And then the last one, pillar four is about flexibility. That's what these first three pillars offer you, your identity, the optionality, the diversification, it gives you that flexibility to rebalance. The mix of your portfolio for the stages of life that you go through recognizing what you want is going to change, what you need is going to change. It's not flighty to grow and change. And a big part of this is sort of letting go of whatever this previous narrative was about what who you were and what you wanted, and how you saw the world and say, Okay, that was true. And now, here's what I need for this chapter. Let's go.

Nik Tarascio 

So good. And I immediately go to everyone who defunded arts programs. Each ship like truly, like, I don't know, it just like the creativity that we foster in kids and the ability to show them that like, Hey, I know this is the way it is today. But as the world's accelerating into uncertainty, having that creative muscle, finding unique ways to do things, allowing yourself to self Express, I hear so much of that stuff that it was always hard for me to justify it of like, why is it that there are so many people in business that have the secret musical talents, and the secret creative path, and I'm like, well, because they're the ones that are, they're the ones that are navigating the uncertainty, or other people in some of these white collar jobs you talking about or just crashing head on like a crash test dummy into a brick wall.

Christina Wallace 

That's exactly it. And I think it's so frustrating having gone through the last like 15 years of everyone being like stem stem stem like forget about the arts, let's just fun science and technology and all these things. And I'm like, I love stem, I was a math major, I get it. But But as I look around it, like the number of things that we can now, automate, means the most valuable workers as though that's the only metric that matters, it's not that the most valuable workers are going to be the ones who understand technology, but have that higher level thinking that creativity, those connecting of ideas, and that is trained through the arts, that's trained through reading, and writing and storytelling and making something out of nothing.

And that's an entire, I don't believe that only some people are creative, I believe everyone is I mean, you look at kids, kids are universally creative. And at some point, we stop emphasizing it, we stop encouraging it, and they lose the practice of creativity. And truly, that is what I believe is the like the human value add in the next five years of AI outsourcing all the stuff that can be, we're still going to need people, but it's through that lens of creativity. And that's where anyone I talked to now. I mean, this is where all the case studies in the book, almost every single one has a creative pursuit as part of their portfolio. So anyone I talked to now I'm like, did you have the trombone in your closet, like bring it back out, you want to try stand up comedy, like, go sign up for that class, whatever that thing is, you want to ceramics, by all means, like, get started, it's not too late. You're not dead yet. Find a way to bring that practice into your life.

Nik Tarascio 

What advice do you have for people that want to go down that road but cannot overcome the inner critic, especially in the creative pursuits, right? Like, I think a lot of people are not, they don't feel safe to share their art, or share their creativity and be in it because they're like, I have this voice that says, That's so stupid. That's not good enough. Do you have any advice to those people?

Christina Wallace 

So the first thing that I suggest is to get outside your head and just go talk to the people who know you really well. One of the things that I did when my company failed, because I was just I couldn't see myself clearly. I was like, What do I have to offer the world? Who am I like, what is going on here? Is I went out and had coffee. With everyone in my network. I did 70 coffee chats, you do not need to have this much coffee, you know, 1520, folks, it's enough. But I went out and talk to the people who knew me the best. And I basically asked them like, what do you see? When you see me? I asked them three very specific questions. When have you seen me happiest? What do you come to me for? Like, what's that moment in your head? You're like, you know what, I should see what Christina thinks about this. And where do I stand out against my peers?

And what I think is really illuminating about this when you go and have these conversations with people who know you. I would bet dollars to donuts that they're not going to say you know, you are happiest when you are building Excel models. You know, 15 hours straight right? They're not going to come up with like a very specific skill or you know, line on your resume. What they said to me was your happiest When you're in charge of your calendar, you don't mind working hard, you love working hard, but you want to do it on your terms, you have to be in control, you are happiest when you're building something from nothing, which was crucial, because at that point I was going down this path of being a manager. I know again, you can manage people, but you also need to be a creator, to be happy. You need to make things and not just manage things like that is a really important insight. So having these conversations, hopefully, will help you recognize that what people see in you is so far beyond the very sort of tightly constructed box that you may have put yourself into, they might point out, you're an amazing storyteller.

You are the life of the party, you're the person that like, if the music dies, they hand the microphone to to vamp until they figure something out, right? And you're like, Oh, interesting. What other worlds might I get to? To try that piece of me? I think the other piece of it is like, maybe you connected to something you left over from childhood, you put it away, you didn't want to do that anymore. And maybe you never loved that thing. Maybe you like hated playing scales on your violin. Okay, so leave the violin behind. You want to pick up the ukulele? Do you want to, you want to learn to jam and do cover songs for the Beatles instead of classical music like, there, there are other versions that you can bring forth, that might actually resonate, because I feel like when you hit on the creative pursuit, that actually clicks for you the shame, it gets drowned out. Because it just offers you so much more. I'm not saying you have to go and perform an open mic night, I'm just saying like, jam in your living room with some YouTube songs on you know, like, you can start small. But I really encourage you to go and talk to the people who love you. Because I promise they see a version of you. That's really amazing. And you might not see it.

Nik Tarascio 

That was a great answer. I'm like, I've got some phone calls I gotta make. No, I really do. I love that idea of reducing the burden of or coming to terms with the fact that we can never see ourselves as clearly as the collective of our network can at times with the collective our families and close friends. And I remember doing a similar exercise. I don't know if you're familiar with landmark, little culty. But whatever. And I'll probably get negative, I'll get some trolling for saying that. But they had us go out and do an exercise where it was like, go ask, like, figure out all your different networks. I mean, it was like music aviation, my entrepreneur groups in New York, like Summit Series, like all these different groups that was part of their like, pick one person who's representative of those communities, and ask them what you're the best at what actually is what does the community think you're the best at? What does the community think you're not very good at?

And it was like, and what can they really depend on you for? And going through that exercise. And I might have messed up some of the questions, it was shocking to find out that my family's answers were completely different from my friends, circles, answers. And so not only found out like the value of bro, but how I showed up differently in different environments. And I was like, well, that's something interesting to audit is, am I not authentic in certain spaces. And doing that gave me a lot of permission. Like the hardest thing I heard was my friend, my friend Peter said to me, he goes, you know, you talk about a lot of things you want to do, but no one actually believes you're actually going to follow through on any of it. And I was like, holy that hurts. That was my entrepreneur group, by the way that was like my entrepreneur friends circle. And it was such a powerful moment of like, that gave me the awareness to see that I don't give myself permission.

That's why it's so cool to kind of go back to that earlier question is why it was more like I could go sit, you know, sit at home and cry and be like, everyone thinks I'm a schmuck. Or I could say like, what about me, is not allowing me to have the permission to actually complete the things I do. And it was the fear of judgment. Yeah. So it's, it's so interesting to hear your answers, especially because I know that they're off the cuff. Like, I'm just throwing random stuff at you. It's really beautiful to hear that and my heart sings that the thought of what if we just gave people that permission to find that creative part of themselves, the world would be such a better place.

Christina Wallace 

Yeah. So much. And you hit on exactly it that i Everyone I talked to you about this their first, you know, responses sort of like, well, the world isn't gonna let me do this. And I was like, Is the world not gonna let you do this? Or are you not gonna let you do this? Because I guarantee you like 95% of this is about you, not granting yourself permission to try this. And then 5% of this is you have to connect the dots of whatever it is you're doing so that everyone else can understand how it fits together, right you You've got to do some storytelling to help make sense of because on a resume or my LinkedIn, like you read it without any context, and you're like, I don't know what this chick is doing. And that's, that's okay, that makes sense. So it's my job to connect the dots and help you process. What am I doing? How do I show up in the world? What do I have to offer when I enter the room? 95% of this. It's the permission you have to give yourself first.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, yeah. Again, so so well stated. And it it makes me wonder, because I imagine that you move through life as a storyteller. Like, I almost feel like your life is like you are intentionally writing the pages. And like, it's just an unbeautiful unfolding of a great narrative. What, what is the theme of the story that you're trying to tell with your life?

Christina Wallace 

It's a great question. You know, I, I gave a talk a couple of years back at the French Embassy in New York. It was a last minute invitation. They needed a woman. They had all all dude lineup, and they needed a woman. That was how they invited me. Fine, and but the question was, what is your passion? What do you like? Why are you here? And I was like, Man, I gotta come up with why am I here and give them like the five minute version. And I didn't have too much time to overthink it, which I think was a gift. Because I came up with truly what it seems consistent with all the individual efforts that I have pulled together from my work in my life is that I, I desperately want other people to feel welcome.

And to feel like they belong. And I have to believe that comes from the first 15 years of my life where I didn't, I didn't feel welcome, and I didn't feel I belonged. And so I have, have made it my work, whether I'm building a fashion company, with sizing that actually takes into account, bra sizes, and height and body shapes that actually reflect what women look like. Whether it's a program for girls in computer science, so they can see the impact they can have and how the world gets built, once they recognize that they are wanted there. Or whether it's a book that helps people be be all of the things that they want to be rather than the one thing they thought they had to be. I don't know. I just I feel like if people recognize that they're a little strangely shaped puzzle piece is wanted and welcomed. I think we'd have a lot of power Unleashed for good.

Nik Tarascio 

Yes, to all of that. I feel very seen right now. I gotta tell you. I'm like, Are you speaking to me or the audience right now? What is going on? In my mind? Yes, exactly. So that that kind of brings us to my last question for you. And again, as someone who has achieved so much, who has so many hyphens already. What is your dream beyond?

Christina Wallace 

Wow, I think you might have actually rendered me speechless. Honestly, it's, it's exactly what I have right now. I, I did an interview last week, the week before? Or someone asked, Are you happy? And it took me by such surprise, I like burst into tears. Because I am. I am I, I have the most beautiful family with a partner that I worked very hard to find. Let me be very clear. 10 plus years of dating in New York City, I worked hard. That is hard work. I deserve this amazing partner and I have him I have a career that I adore. I I'm incandescently happy which was for 15 year old Christina. I think she wouldn't even think that was ever possible. And so I don't know my dream beyond is I want more people to feel like this.

Nik Tarascio 

Oh, thank you for sharing your story. Because I think that's a really great step and making that possible. I know I feel more permission. So thank you and I am I'm like really happy to see you happy. Thank Yeah, I remember when we spent time probably about a decade ago, like I did see you seeking are quite the seeker and it's nice to see, it's nice to see you, like just arrived, you have just arrived. It's really beautiful. So I hope. I hope everyone heard some of the things I heard in here, which is really that self permission. Like really people giving themselves that self permission, really connecting with that play part, the young part, the creative part that we've in many cases stuffed down and found to be superfluous in our life. And I think more than that, I would love it.

If anyone that hears this would share in any way with me or with Christina, what are some hyphens that are blank spaces right now that you want to fill in with something? Yes, I would love to hear that. And just, I'm happy to be in supportive saying, go add some onto your name. Don't go nuts, like onto your titles onto your experience. Just add some stuff on there. Have some fun with yourself. And if you're moved by what Christina shared, you can check out her book on is it on everything I imagined? Ebook platforms, all the places Yeah, so you can check it out. It's again, the portfolio life, how to future proof your career, avoid burnout and build a life bigger than your business card. Please write reviews on Amazon.

It's a great way to get that ranked up. And now I'm such an advocate for you, Christina after this interview, I'm like yes to everything you said. I want to see your dream beyond come true to and if you can't buy the book for some reason you can you can request it from your library. And again, I just hope you're as moved. As always as I am. I feel so fortunate to have Christina You spent all this time with me and I'm like, sometimes it feels so self indulgent because I get to ask you all these amazing questions you give me such beautiful answers. So thank you for speaking from the heart and of course, it is really reinvigorating for me to see like it works when you when you when you work at it, because I know that there's one thing I remember about you, you're someone who always worked at it. And it's really beautiful to see it works out when you really honor yourself. You listen to yourself and you go build what your heart most desires. Thank you so much. Cool.

Well thank you for being here. Thank you for listening to the dream beyond. I hope that you receive whatever message or inspiration you're meant to get from today's episode. I had a great time recording it for you. If you love the show, please take 30 seconds to subscribe rate and review it. That really helps get the word out. And if you want to connect with me, you can find me at

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[the-dream-beyond]

Episode 16 - Ayurveda and Balanced Living: Nurturing the Mind, Body, and Spirit with Divya Alter

Divya alter 

There's certain vibrations that also lead to the mind. So somebody who has very active mind a lot of anxiety, panic attacks, it definitely shows in the pulse. But the other thing that vitamins should taught us with pulse reading is also level of toxicity. Well, in a general sense, you know, what, for example, if somebody has accumulated a lot of hot, acidic toxins, it's very easy to feel that in the pulse.

Nik Tarascio 

I'm sure you've heard you are what you eat. And today we're going to be talking to someone who is helping people really understand that relationship to food and to self into that interconnection. She's a master in a modality of health that is considered to be the oldest on record. And if you've never heard of Ayurveda, you're going to be learning a bunch about it today. Hope you really enjoy.

Welcome to the dream beyond. I'm your host, Nik Tarascio. I'm a co musician and overall seeker of Truth, inspiration and simply put, how to live the most fulfilling life possible. Growing up surrounded by extremely wealthy and successful people gave me unique and unfiltered perspectives of those who have seemingly made it through on the dream beyond, we're letting you in on what it really takes to achieve your dreams. What happens when it turns out your destination isn't the promised land you are expecting and how to process the lessons from your past while mapping of course to true fulfillment. Let's get started.

Hey, everybody, excited to be with you. Today. We have an amazing guest who is a Certified Nutritional Consultant, educator, author of two cookbooks, and a chef with over 30 years of experience in the shock of Ayurveda tradition. She's also the founder of Divya's kitchen, a plant based restaurant in New York City. One of my favorites to be honest, I go there for the the lasagna is to die for. She's also the creator of Divya as a line of good for you packaged foods. And because she doesn't do enough, she's also the co founder of Bhagavat life, a nonprofit culinary school that offers cooking classes in North America's first Ayurvedic chef certification program, making her a leading authority on our Vedic cooking and nutrition. So please welcome Divya altar. Thank you for being here with us today, Divya.

Divya alter 

Thank you. Thank you, Nick for having me. I don't know if I'm a leading authority on anything. But I'm definitely enjoy doing everything we do right now. And I'm definitely my foot. My whole world revolves around food, especially food that's used for healing. So it's so nice to be with you. Thank you for having me.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah. And even if you're not a leading authority for the whole world, you are for me, because again, I really enjoy your restaurant. I've taken many of my family members there. My fiance and I have done your masterclasses. And again, we just wait, we even have the seasonal food box here that we're trying to do like kind of the whole Ayurvedic cleanse. So, again, I appreciate what you do. And I would love to kind of dive in with probably a little bit of a nonstandard question, but when you were a child, what did you dream you'd be when you grew up.

Divya alter 

I dream to be a doctor. But the doctor in the sense that helping people improve their health. And then even as a child, like with my friends, we would play doctors, you know, we use like, fake IVs and do things like that. And I really enjoyed them. Yes, so now and I and that and now I see that I'm very interested in healing. That's my passion, especially healing with food. And, and also, all of this stems through my own healing, right? Like, my own struggles with health, not just physically but also mentally, really going deeper into connecting with who I am and what I'm meant to do in the world. So, so yes, I'm very, somehow never became a doctor. But I am in the healing circle for sure.

Nik Tarascio 

So I would love to hear about for people that don't know what Ayurveda is, because I imagine it's a word that like I brought it up thinking everyone would know what I was talking about. And most people go I have no idea what any of that is. So for people that have no concept of what it is, what is it? What are the core principles of it?

Divya alter 

Ayurveda is the traditional medical science of India. So it's one of the oldest healing systems recorded in the world. Actually, if in some people say it's the oldest, it's actually older than Chinese medicine. So before 150 years ago, or even few 100 years ago, when there were no pharmaceuticals, you know, there were we didn't use medicine the way we know it today. How did people heal? What did the doctors use? So they use all these traditional methods, also using local herbs and local even food ingredients? that would support a particular illness or imbalance. And Ayurveda has been recorded. People say I mean exactly how old it is. That's debatable.

Some people say it's 5000 years old. It's kind of easy to say that but many historians that's much older than that. It's very old. And what I love about Ayurveda, it has many goals. But Ayurveda doesn't just treat the patient, it doesn't treat the disease, it treats the whole person, physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, so are you ready really helps us integrate our health on every level, because our mental health affects our physical health. spiritual health can affect our mental health, they're all related. And what I love about Ayurveda is that it's a very personalized science. There are, there's a discussion on different body types. So depending on what your body type is, then and what your imbalance is what's going on in your body, then there will be specific personal protocols for food or exercise or cleansing, or anything, Mac lifestyle, all that. So I love it, because it's a very personalized approach to health rather than just one treatment. Oh, you have a headache, take a pill, you know, it's not like that. It's like, where's the headache coming from? Let's find the cause first, and then we'll address the symptoms and the treatment protocols.

Nik Tarascio 

So it looks like of all the different sides of Ayurveda because again, I appreciate the way you describe it as it is a complete look at a person from every angle, it's the physical, the emotional, the mental, all those things. It looks like you really found a connection towards Ayurveda as it relates to food and the way you bring it to the world. And I'm just wondering how that intersected with your life path. Exactly.

Divya alter 

So I, okay, so I came into food I started, I realized that I love to cook when I was 18 years old. And I was I was frustrated with life at that age. I was like, this life doesn't make sense. There must be a deeper meaning to life. So the communist, I'm from Bulgaria, so the communism was just breaking down in 1990. And I got I really became very curious about yoga. And I was like I, I really connected with the, the way the yogic texts explain the meaning of life, the soul, we're not the body and all that. And I'm like, Oh, this makes total sense to me. So I started looking for a yoga studio. And there were there weren't any those days, it was forbidden, because everything spiritual was forbidden back then. And then I met a person who was running an underground yoga ashram in my hometown. And I absolutely loved everything. And I became an intern because I was also trying to be a vegetarian, and I didn't know how to be a healthy vegetarian, and how to make it tasty also. So I became an intern, and I started learning how to cook just helping in the kitchen. And then in exchange, I was learning yoga. And I really fell in love with food. So years later, I went to India, to connect with the roots of yoga and to continue with my education as well. And then I started feeling very sick.

So I went through a period of time and I was really, my digestion was almost zero. And that's how I started the local doctor was an Ayurveda doctor and really amazing one. And, and he didn't, and I thought, oh, yeah, he would just give me some herbs. I think I thought that I have as a treatment is like allopathic treatment, but with herbs instead of medication. So so it's like, oh, you have digestive problems. Take this herb, you have a headache, they take this herb, but no, it's not like that. So it's like, he was like, Okay, it's not just the herbs, you have to change your diet has to change how you when you sleep, how you sleep, how you exercise, to align with your body type with with your constitution, so that you can experience your best health.

So he gave me a list of foods. And then I started learning how to cook like this with food combinations with spices that really support digestion, and it's not just tasty, but it's actually digestible as well. And I was like, wow, this is amazing. I started feeling like I've never felt like that before. Wow. So and then later on, when I came to the United States, I became very sick this time it was serious I had an autoimmune disease, a lot of inflammation, a lot of digestive issues. And when I met my main I remember the teacher His name is Vida Mishra, then I, this is when I really started studying in depth. And it changed my life just changing my diet and applying the Ayurvedic principles to a vegetarian healthy diet, I was already in eating healthy, but I read it takes healthy to 2.0 to a different level.

And I was I don't have autoimmune anymore as healthy and I have more energy now and I'm 51 years old, then 10 or 15 years ago, it's amazing how the body can reset itself and come back to where it's supposed to be. So I'm very grateful. And I started teaching cooking classes. And, and people who just would do simple recipes or follow just a few simple principles they learned from me, and they will be like, Wow, I feel so much better. And not only physically but my mind is more peaceful. And I'm like, yeah, it's working. So, so then I decided with my husband as apprentice, we were like, Let's just make this our life mission. Let's help people connect, truly connect with the healing benefits and experience the healing benefits of food by cooking it learning how to prepare it by coming to a restaurant by providing products so they can easily prepare something at home. So yeah, so I've been doing this for the past many years here in New York City.

Nik Tarascio 

That's incredible. And I think what's what I find interesting about what you're doing, and the restaurant specifically is that I imagine that you're the first interface for a lot of people into either Vedic principles or AI or Vedic food. And so I am wondering as someone and again, I saw it in the masterclass which I've tried to study Ayurveda. I've tried to make sense of it. And even watching your masterclass and like the first, I think it was the first segment, I was amazed by stuff I'd never heard before. I was like, even that I've not found that stuff online. I've not found these principles explained in a way that was simple. But what are some of the common misconceptions or resistance that you find when you start to tell people about this? And it's the first time they're hearing about it? What do people push back on?

Divya alter 

Oh, that's a really good question that, you know, I meet so many people, one of the first thing may be that it may sound very complicated at first, because it's so much, okay, so I have to think about my doshas about my body type, about the season, about my digestion, about the properties of the ingredients, it's so much to think about. But, and also because we're not trained, our mind is not trained to think that way. We just think, Oh, I'm hungry, I'm going to eat. It's not we're not trying to connect, the food we eat with the way we feel. And the foods we eat completely affects the way we feel, by the way.

But we're not just we, our perspective on food is different. So, and I felt overwhelmed as well, when I first started studying, but it's actually very simple and it makes a lot the principles of Ayurveda make a lot of sense, because they align us with nature. So there's one of the main goals of Ayurveda is to help us flow with nature. And we are part of nature, we get sick when we separate ourselves from nature. It's either our own nature, or the nature around us when you kind of cut that connection.

But but because I read it's not like rules that the other misconception is like, there are too many rules. And I'm like, you guys, it's not rules. These are just, this is just how nature works. It just telling you, okay, so have you, for example, have your main meal, the biggest quantity of food, especially if you have digestive issues, have it for lunch, when the sun is at the highest point in the sky, around lunchtime, then you digestive fire digestion is strongest at that time. So Have more food and heavier food then don't eat too heavy foods at night, or early in the morning when your digestion is either going to sleep or waking up. So and I'm like yeah, this makes total sense. Right.

So work how to align ourselves with the circadian rhythms. And then and then and then when you start flowing with nature and not go against the current of nature, all of a sudden you feel so much more balanced. And, and that's the goal. That's what good health is that you feel balanced mentally, spiritually, emotionally, physically. So, yeah, just and I always tell people just take it one thing at a time, you don't have to study the whole Ayurveda into the AC, just try something, try some, try waking up earlier and see how you feel, try going to bed earlier, see how you feel. And then all of a sudden you have more energy, your skin is clearer, your your mind is more peaceful, your digestion is working better. And this is, again, you're aligning with nature, you're allowing the body to heal itself and work the way it's supposed to work. So that's, that's some points on that.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, I mean, as you say that it's like so obvious when it's like, yeah, of course, when I'm waking up, my digestive fire might not be as strong. And of course, when I'm tired, it might not be that strong. When you said it, I was like waiting to be like, Wait, does the sun's alignment have something to do with the fire? But then it's like, No, that just, it's obvious that the body is using energy to come to life and using energy go to sleep or given up his energy. So when you say that, I'm like, yeah, that like that seems practical. But I imagine that the fact that it's an ancient system, and the fact that it does require some understanding of principles is like, so again, my listening audience is a lot of high achievers that are going a million miles an hour, and it's like, just tell me the answer. I just want to know the answer to what I'm supposed to do. We're looking for prescription, not so much like learning a whole new modality. But I really was, you know, I've dealt with a lot of autoimmune issues myself, I've had a lot of a lot of digestive issues. And when I was younger, we tried everything.

We tried everything we could imagine it was like infusions, and this and that and these medications. And it was funny to find out that the thing that made the biggest difference was just changing my diet that no one told me, No doctor ever told me, Hey, why don't you just try eating different foods and see what upsets your stomach and doesn't, it was like so ridiculously obvious. So I appreciate that aspect of it does seem overwhelming, I Aveda just seems like such a wealth of knowledge. Again, you can set it 1000s and 1000s of years old. But you know, kind of continuing down that road is what or if someone came to you, and you were like, again, I want to win them over with Ayurveda, I'm gonna give them just a couple of small principles, a couple of small practices, just to dip their toe. So they're going to get a result. And once they get that result, I know that they're going to be invested in wanting to know more other other kind of simple tips or simple concepts that you generally will share with people to get them excited about it and see some basic result.

Divya alter 

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I will share a couple of things first, but I think also it's, it's not just doing it's also adjusting our perspective on who we are in our life. Because our event is not about fixing a problem. Are you ready is about complete healing. And through the, through the process of healing, are you aware that helps us to clear personal obstacles, like it could be a bad habit of just being angry all the time, or it could be a resentment that we've been holding, or a person that we didn't forgive, or an emotional trauma that we're still holding from our early childhood or whatever it is. So again, I evade the helps heal the whole person. So when somebody comes to me and says, I just need a quick fix, I would say, Well, I can offer, I can offer advice on what can help you relieve the symptom if you just come to that. But you can go so much deeper, and you can experience a beautiful, exciting, liberating transformation. And even your perception of suffering will change when you go once you go through this.

And it doesn't mean that you really have to suffer and take cold showers and perform all these austerities to achieve you know, enlightenment or something. But, but it means that you participate in your own healing. So when somebody comes to me for help, and I offer nutritional consultations when I have time, that's not I'm busy with other things. But sometimes people ask me for help and somebody comes to me I don't really treat them I which I wouldn't do anyway. But I help them first of all align with themselves who they are and then understand what what they need to do to help the body heal itself. So I see myself as support supporting their own healing instead of just fixing problems. You know what I mean? Yeah, so so it's like, yeah, you can you can just like brushed through life. And by when you go very quickly through through life, and you don't take the time to digest your experiences and to reflect and to gain the wisdom from what you just went through, we need to have those times when you go through life so quickly, in your old age, when you kind of decide, okay, you retire, and you look back, and you may feel unfulfilled, because, because if you don't do your inner work, you may feel frustrated and unfulfilled.

So, I always tell people, you know, you can still be a high achiever, but find moments during the day, or during the week where you can slow down and, and develop those habits of connecting. How are you feeling? What what do you meant? Who are you really, what do you meant to do in this life? What what just happened? Yeah, correctly, how could you have done it better, like really take time to reflect, and this will, this will help you digest, not just physically, that just food, but also digest life, and gain the wisdom that you can then transmit you, children or those people that you lead. But in terms of simple self care? Let's see. Well, one very simple thing that you can do first thing in the morning, if you're not doing it yet, is scrape your tongue. So you can get a Thai tongue scraper, it's a simple metal thing can be stainless steel, I use a silver one, I like the silver one better. I don't recommend the copper one. Because if you saliva is very acidic, the copper will oxidize from the acidity of the saliva.

So stainless steel is silver. And after you brush your teeth, you can just scrape your tongue, you know, it's very easy. There are a lot of videos on YouTube about to do that it takes few seconds. But this will this will refresh your breath, it also diminishes bad bacteria in the mouth diminishes acidity, it helps you to stay better. And yeah, it's just a cleanse a daily cleansing procedure, something very simple you can do. Another simple thing you can do is, let's say, let's see, with food. So don't eat fresh fruits with anything else. So eat them alone.

And sometimes people eat them as dessert, simply because they digest differently. I have a friend and she, she would sit down. And sometimes we go to events or something. And there is a buffet with so many foods and you don't want to take a little bit of everything. And there's usually fruit also like a fresh fruit. And so you take little fruit and then take oatmeal or pancake or whatever else. And you eat all this together the same time. Fresh fruit digest differently than cooked food. And when you eat them together, it can cause a lot of bloating and gas. And I told her why don't you just eat the fruit, either as a snack between meals or maybe eat it 30 Min 30 minutes before your meal, start with that and then wait a little bit and then eat the rest. And she did and she's like, Oh my God, my Bloating is gone. I thought this was a chronic illness with so just it's called Food compatibility in Ayurveda, like kind of like a food combining so. So I teach this in the master classes and I write I give you the charts in my books what to combine. What's good combination was bad combination, because just by avoiding the bad combinations, you have so much digestion will be so much better.

Nik Tarascio 

Amazing. Yeah, I think I'm guilty of what your friend is guilty of when I go to buffets. I try to win at the buffet, I want to try everything. So I imagine that's also put a bit of a toll on my body. But you also said something else in there that I'm really curious about, especially because I come from Italian heritage very passionate, very charged. And I'm wondering about you were talking about anger as it relates to Ayurveda are there foods that can reduce anger? And is it possible that Italian foods are the opposite of that?

Divya alter 

Yes. So you come from a very temperamental culture, right. So yes, so their food definitely affects affects us mine mentally which can translate in our relationships also. So there are foods that are very stimulating. They usually pungent foods like spicy. It's not just I mean, you go to other cultures that you eat a lot of spicy foods, and sometimes they're just talking and they look like they're quarreling. I just haven't. Right, but it's just the nature, so usually very pungent spicy foods can lead to having more temperament. The other one is onions and garlic. So these two very pungent, right, and they're very stimulating, I always recommend either use less of them insert in summer, you should definitely use less of them because otherwise you sweat too much.

And you sweat will stink too. So, but I mean, it's the connection, right? Connecting what you eat the words coming out of the body, so but also, like don't eat a lot of those very stimuli. It could be also like kimchi, or something that's really sour, really salty, really spicy. If you eat that at night, it's so stimulating, it may affect your sleep, you may not be able to fall asleep. So eat it for lunch. Yeah, so. So these are some stimulating foods, especially in Italian cooking, I would say the garlic and maybe some onions, especially if it's a raw and cooked. So that's when they're strongest. So they're very medicinal. But again, we have different body types. If you have a very fiery body type, the kind of person who is always feels hot and you walk in tea in a T shirt in the middle of the winter and you don't feel hot and so and you sweat a lot.

So that's a fiery body type. Then then you need less of those spicy foods because they will they're very heating they will increase your heat you'll sweat more your skin will be red. Alcohol does the same thing. It's very fiery substance. So what was cool it down. I think Basil is Nik basil in Italian cuisine is a saver because especially the fresh sweet basil, it has a cooling effect. It also helps you digest the heavy cheeses and pass the and all that. But zucchini zucchini is a great cooling vegetable. very calming so zucchini produces calmness in the body. artichokes, asparagus, you know these are all coming vegetables, fruits like fresh, juicy fruits. What you like artichokes?

Nik Tarascio 

I do? Yeah. I love artichokes I used to my family would do that like the fried artichoke with all the breading on it, which is probably less artichoke and more bread. But that was delicious. And I do like artichoke hearts.

Divya alter 

Yeah, yeah, they're great. They're really good for your liver. So they're very calming for the liver. So a lot of that angry energy can also come when your liver is too challenged like either too sluggish or in Ayurveda. We speak about how to liver when the liver has way too much toxicity accumulated or, you know, whatever it may be the liver is kind of challenged. So yeah, so artichokes are amazing for the liver. Incredible. They very Pelion.

Nik Tarascio 

I don't know if you know the answer to this, or I don't know if this is known in all of Ayurvedic practice, but I just started going to an ayurvedic doctor. And the first time I met her, she took my wrist, and in about 30 seconds told me what my constitution was, anyway, how does that work? Like I've had tons of doctors that have done tons of tests on me. And this woman grabbed my wrist and 30 seconds basically told me my entire medical history. How's that even possible?

Divya alter 

Yeah, so that's part of the science right? Pulse reading is fascinating. Ayurvedic I'm trained in this as well. So the are you ready pulse rating is different than a modern Doctor reading their, you know, your pulse rate or something like that. So there are three, we use three fingers for reading the pulse. So the fourth finger, the middle finger, and the ring finger, and you put your fourth finger by the wrist joint. So this is I don't know if I can show but this like this. So this is vata, this is the Air and Space elements in your body, the middle finger is better, that's the fire element in your body, and the ring finger is Kapha the water and earth element. So depending on So, in Ayurveda, we describe like the strength of the pulse, how strong it is, this this determines if, like, if you have weak strength, it to me to say that you probably have chronic fatigue, for example, like you don't have a robust energy you have less energy.

So and then depending on how you pulse there's also a particular way of pressing and the depth into in which you press and it will tell me which dosha dosh the doshas are the and bio energies that govern all the functions in the body. So vata governs circulation governs the heart, it governs the Colin, it governs overall movement and overall health. It got there's about three in the stomach. So if I feel that specific sensations you have to learn these sensations in, in, in my in this thing my bath the finger, then it tells me that I connect that to a function in that particular part of your body. And then I ask you, are you constipated? And they're like, how could you tell? You know, or, or with the pitha? Like, sometimes they check the pulse, and it's like, Oh, my God, do you have acid reflux?

And they're like, oh, yeah, it's really bad. So. And then with the kapha, I could also like, for example, he could tell me that you have water retention, without even looking at you. If even if I close my eyes without looking at you. I can feel inside. Oh, wow, do you have water retention? So that's the water element, right, then it's vibrating particularly. And then also every though she's connected to different organs. So maybe she asked you about certain organs that you might have history with. So yeah, it takes a long time to learn this. And it's actually it's a lifetime process. It's like you always learn something from it.

Nik Tarascio 

Well, you just ruined my dream, because I was like, I just want to learn this over the weekend. But it sounds like it sounds like it's quite a bit of work to be able to do this just seems like an amazing skill to be able to take someone and immediately get a sense of what their inner system is.

Divya alter 

Yes, yeah, it's very helpful. And it also so you can also there are certain vibrations that also lead to the mind. So somebody who has very active mind, a lot of anxiety, panic attacks, it definitely shows in the pulse. But the other thing that vitamins should taught us with pulse reading is also level of toxicity. Well, in a general sense, you know, but for example, if somebody has accumulated a lot of hot acidic toxins, it's very easy to feel that in the pulse. So when I feel this for somebody, I would always just the diet because don't have those hot hot foods, they will only make you more fat, right? So the policy is very helpful for me to help people guide them through exactly what they need to eat right now, what they need to avoid in order to bring themselves back to balance.

And it's also fun to like that, like there is a way if somebody can also show if your channels like like digestive tract and other channels in the body is are more clogged, you know, like your pipes are clogged, you know, in a sense. And by the Misha tell us how to he called it tofu pals. So tofu is a very hard to digest food. And it can cause a lot of blockages in the body, especially if your digestion is not strong. So I it's like it that particular sensation, whenever I feel it, and I asked the person, do you eat a lot of tuffeau? And they're like, there's no way you know that I eat a lot of stuff. There's no way you could know that. And I like it. The balls never, never, never realize.

Nik Tarascio 

So is it the kind of thing where if someone did want to go down the road of saying I would love to have an Ayurvedic practitioner helped me make sense of what a protocol would even look like? Or what what my path might look like? Do you generally recommend that people do meet someone in person so they can do the pulse reading on their body instead of doing a zoom call or something like that?

Divya alter 

Is that is definitely helpful. But the pulse reading is only one way of assessing your condition right? Looking at you so there's ways to look just at your whole body, your face. Some people just read the face. There is also a way to like use real wrinkles. And they can tell Oh, you have liver and kidney problem you have there is also a town so assessing your tongue can be another way of asking questions. So another way so if you wanted to do it on Zoom, it's usually the doctor or practitioner will ask you many questions. Very specific questions, and they can be very personal questions. So how is your poop? What does it look like? Does it smell you? How often do you have it? You know, like, it may seem like rude, this is gross, but it's actually very important symptom of good or bad health. So So yeah, usually if you do it virtually and many really good doctors do it virtually. I mean during the pandemic, you know, we had no choice. Yeah, but, but even a good doctor can help you virtually. But seeing being in person is definitely, you had get a lot more bonuses with that as well.

Nik Tarascio  

So kind of zooming out from all of this stuff if you took the entire practice of Ayurveda, and apply it to the question of, you know, how does Ayurveda relate to living a more fulfilling life, because that's really at the heart of what this show is about. It's, we're all trying a million different things to try to bring joy or have these moments of happiness or try to get, you know, win at life, whatever that means. What does Ayurveda tell us about what fulfillment really is or how to achieve it?

Divya alter 

It's all about connection. So, you know, in the beginning, we spoke about how help diminishes when we disconnect ourselves, from who we are and from nature around this. So are you ready helps us to really understand our our, first of all, how a body works your individual body, how it works, what are the strengths, what are the weaknesses, and how to balance that, and knowing what your stress points are. And when you're in a stressful situation, offering suggestions of how you can minimize the reactions to stress. But and then and then on a deeper level, seeing yourself as more the body more than the body because the body we know we grow, we grow up we grow old, this illness is part of life, we nobody has perfect health. But I already can minimize can help us maintain it's a preventative health is big part of Ayurveda. So by practicing Ayurvedic diet, lifestyle, we kind of avoid a lot of the lifestyle related illnesses, lifestyle and diet related illnesses that are so common today.

Nik Tarascio 

So example of that.

Divya alter 

With diabetes, you know, it's such a big one, or even heart disease, high blood pressure, you know, these are, all of these can be reversed and prevented with you have lifestyle and diet that are more aligned with your own body constitution and also with nature. So not going against nature's laws and really acting as we're part of nature, and not some implant. So, so finding that connection for yourself, when you feel centered and connected with who you are, what your life's purpose is, I think this is such a strong foundation for fulfillment, and happiness.

And the other thing that I, for me, it's so important is that you don't do this just for yourself, you're not you're not trying to be healthy, just for the sake of being healthy. Right? You do this so that you can be of service to others. And happiness really comes I mean, you can just make a comfortable life for yourself. But real happiness comes when you're able to serve others and help others and have beautiful relationships with with others. So that's, that's a big part of health as well. So again, it's again, connection, right? Connecting with other living entities, not just not just on mental satisfaction, but really hard to heart. Like really feeling that heart to heart connection with everybody around you. It's very powerful.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm on that path right now, I think I've been chasing, you know, the show is obviously for a particular reason that it's most of my life has been chasing the external successes. And now coming to the space of, I recognize that that game never ends, like that can just go on for all of time. So what does it mean to go within my spells, you know, within myself, especially knowing that I live in my head, not as much in my body. So really trying to reconnect to the body and trying to get some of that wisdom of what does my body crave? What does it need? And instead of having everyone outside of me telling me what the answers to the questions are, can I create that connection to self, that my body's like, well, I want to eat that and I don't want to eat that. And this doesn't work for me, and this is what does. So I very much appreciate that. And you know, beyond the masterclass which I hope with my crazy work schedule to get through the whole thing soon because I just find it so interesting. And I just learned about your, you know, again, your cooking school, which is also really interesting that, you know, that might be a path for me to go down as well. For someone who really feels like this is such an interesting area. What are some additional ways people can get involved in understanding what this is and learning it beyond? Like I said, the masterclass in the cooking class and things like that.

Divya alter 

Well, I mean, There are many workshops and you don't have to become an ayurvedic doctor or practitioner to learn how to take care of yourself, most people, I mean, if it's your calling to be a healer, and to help people with their health and and guide them that way, then yes, but a big part of it is just taking self care. And these are all preventative medicine, little things that you can do. And again, it's like, you try something, oh, it works for me great. We also have to make adjustments with the seasons.

So scraping a time is something you can do daily to the rest of your life. But I don't know. Maybe you cannot bathe in the ocean all the time, we cannot walk barefoot all the time, you know, which is can be very grounding practice. But so there are little practices that you just have to see oh, yeah, this works for me right now, I find it very helpful, like, apply simple things. Are you very good recommendations, especially when you travel a lot. Like, you have a jet company, Nik. The airplane, traveling by airplane creates so much havoc in our body, and some people are more used to it than others.

But still, it's like, it's very unnatural condition for our body to be in when we are in the airplane. So. So for example, when before you fly, there are certain things you can do. Like even if you go for a massage with a nice oil, or you do sell oil massage, or just put a little bit of oil on your feet before you put on your socks, this will this will really make it will it will add more groundedness when you're up in the air, I like to put a little oil in my nostrils because it gets so dry on the airplane, little things and as soon as you land, try to walk barefoot summery, could be the beach or grass or something like that to land your body also, fully.

So they and there's so many little practices like that, that. And it's not you don't even have to memorize them, you just follow the main principle of balance that you're always balanced with the opposite energy of what you're experiencing right now. So when you're very cold, you need warm foods, you need warm drinks, right to bring more warmth as you you need warm clothes. When you're very hot, you need something cooling, when you're running in very high speed, like in an aeroplane, when you're traveling, then you need when as soon as you arrive, slow down. You know I love little bit of time to your body to slow down and adjust. Don't just start rushing and running and going to conference just plan a day to just rest first. And then and then it's like we will not overusing our body because a lot of health problems also come. And that's one of the causes that I evangelists is disease is overusing our senses. We just abused our bodies too much. You know, we use the it's like, like you run your car without taking care of it. And then one day it just breaks. So yeah, so I always tell people just slow down.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, no, I mean, that's, that's hard. For me running a jet company is very much. It is about going a million miles an hour. And I appreciate that, you know, finding those moments of grounding, finding those moments of just pausing taking a breath slowing it down, I think you know, I just think of landing at JFK. It is a circus, right? It's like rush to the car, get in the car, rush home, get home rush to do the next thing. So I can see that. You know, again, I when I was first introduced to pyruvate, I just knew it as food. So it is interesting to hear kind of how these practices really as an entire way to live your life an entire way to find connection to self. So I appreciate that very much. And I have to ask kind of our our big final question as you've done so much. And again, I just reading your bio, it's like the amount of things you've achieved. It's really impressive. And you've, you've helped, I'm assuming a lot of people through this work. I know again, you've helped me personally. When you dream, what do you dream about now?

Divya alter 

Oh, well, I always my prayer and my dream is to always be of service of loving service to people. I don't I don't have like for me, you know, I'm a poor poor girl from Bulgaria. I didn't even speak English but like, like, what, 30 years ago, but and then I wrote books and English books in English and it's like, wow. But like for me the main the main lesson in my life is that when my mindset is that I'm here to serve people. And yeah, for me to grow personally, that's my personal task.

But I'm, I'm here to be of service to people. I don't live my life just for myself. I live to help others as well. And, and then whatever my service is, whatever service presents itself at the time, like, if you asked me 20 years ago that I will have restaurant, I will be like, Are you crazy, I never really, that wasn't my dream. So I know, some people are meant to do very specific tasks, and they dream about it, and I achieve it. And that's beautiful for me, is more like, I'm here to serve. And I will do wherever I'm at you I'm taking us to do I'll take the opportunity for service, because it makes me really happy. So it, if I, if there are moments, of course, I go into just thinking about myself, and I'm the center of the universe. And it's like, I get so depressed.

And I'm like, No, I'm just a tiny speck in this creation. I'm part of this universal machine. And, and by through service, I spirit, I experienced connection with everybody and everything around me. And that makes me very happy and fulfilled. So and grateful.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, that's beautiful. And I have to ask, because, I mean, were you always this humble.

Divya alter 

Um, no. That's, that's still work in progress. But, you know, the school of hard knocks, I've been through, I've been through very humbling experiences in my life. And, and I, I definitely am not very humble at all. But, but it's, I find humility to be a beautiful thing. It's, it has nothing to do with low self esteem. If I had low self esteem, I wouldn't be talking to you, right?

But, but humility is, again, connecting with who you are, and knowing that you're more than this body that you're to me, I'm eternal soul. I'm a beautiful divine spiritual being. And that goes through different cycles of life. And like that, then there are lessons to be learned and service to be done. But but without, without humility, we cannot we can never experience through gratitude. And without gratitude, we can never experience fulfillment, we will always be dissatisfied with something.

So, to me, humility and gratitude go hand in hand, and this leads to lasting satisfaction in life. And you may, it may seem that you haven't achieved anything externally. But still, you're completely satisfied and happy. And when you go to India, you see a lot of sourdoughs, a lot of saintly persons that are so accomplished spiritually. They don't have big companies or anything like that. And they completely free from false identification, you know, big ego. They don't have they don't aspire for material things, but they're just so happy and satisfied. And it's like, how come? Where is this coming from?

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, I struggle with that, too. I'm like, What have you done lately? Right? Like, how do you have such self satisfaction when your life is so simple? And again, I'm sure that's more of my conditioning of I've measured my own success by being goal oriented. You know, it's like, it's not about who I am. It's about what I've done. And I tried to transition more to that. And I'm curious to like, dive a little bit deeper into that question. You just said, your self esteem you you have self esteem. And that humility is not the same as self esteem. How do you separate those two in your head?

Divya alter 

Well, who is the self right? What do I identify myself with? So if I identify myself, with just the body and the mind, then it's like, I'm always thinking are, how am I looking? What if they think about my eyes or my glasses, I just focus on body types and I lose my confidence, you know, like, like body parts and it's like, so that a lot of people get stuck in that. They, they think that the way they look, I mean, Appearance is important, but it's not. It's not. It's just one piece of who we are. So I'm also again, when I when I think of myself, as a servant of others. It's not like serving like a slave but I'm here to be a service to you.

Then And then my ego is like, you know, I'm here to serve. And I'm very happy to do that. Rather than and we're all servants. I mean, even if you're leader of a big company, you're serving your employees, you're guiding them, you're leading them. If you have a family, you're serving the servant, you're also we're all serving somebody it's not, it's actually a very elevated position. So, rather than thinking, Oh, you're supposed to serve me, you're supposed to work for me. And, you know, and then this is when we cut connections, right? The heart to heart connection gets cut, when we only speak for ourselves without giving to others.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, well, I think that's a beautiful place to wrap this up. It's what an interesting conversation that really, for me started around food, and how to eat well how to get connected to your food, but really, it's about getting connected to yourself and others. And I really liked that heart to heart connection with really an invitation and all of this just to be of service to others. And I think that's, you know, that following that path, of take care of your body, take care of yourself, so you can be able to take care of others. And again, in aviation, when we say put on your own oxygen mask before you don anybody else's.

And I think in many ways, our Aveda can be seen as the same thing as take care of yourself so you can take care of others and be of service. And again, it's such an inspirational story to talk to someone who talks about defying the odds, it sounds like you've just had such an incredible journey from Communism, to building these amazing things that serve so many people here in New York. And all over the world I imagined to

Divya alter 

Oh, thank you. So kind. I'm always like, even though we're going through expansion of our company, and I'm like, we're going against all against all odds, but somehow it's working. It's like, it's not, it's not an easy process, I have to tell you, like, because before so just last thing, we, my husband and I, we were both monks before we got married, and I was a monk for 15 years, he was a monk for about the same time. And, and in, you know, and I was kind of like puffed up a little bit. I'm so spiritual, oh, I'm sorry, the hands didn't. I can recite Sanskrit by memory, and, you know, all these things and chanting and meditating.

And I kind of became puffed up. And I was looking down on people in business, because I thought, Oh, they're just materialists and doing material things. And like, they're greedy. So it was such an unhealthy state of mind for some time. And then boom, Oh, you think you're so advanced that I got really sick. And literally everything that I was borrowing strength from was taken away. And you're like, you know, so right now running our business is, to us is really we're just talking about this yesterday how running a business, which may seem like a very material activity can be a perfect path for spiritual upliftment and elevation and awakening. Because it's always about the inner disposition of what's your inner disposition, your intention, where's your heart when you do all these external things. And this can make such a big difference in your perception, but also, also your contribution.

But also, yes, it's important to have goals, it's very important to lead a goal oriented life, but honor the journey, the path itself, because that's where the real growth happens. It's not the achievement itself, is getting there. When, when we when we grow the most.

Nik Tarascio 

Well, I have to say, You're the first entrepreneur that I've spoken to, maybe ever, who when I asked kind of what your future path was, you were like, I don't know, whatever presents itself, I will give myself fully to that. And I think that that is true agility. When you think about it, it's like the most agile way to build something, it's just to say, I'll know it when I see it. And I will give myself fully to it. So you're absolutely right. Entrepreneurship is a spiritual path, whether people realize it or not. And I think you're living proof of the fact that you can break all the rules and you can do it all different ways. And if you just trust your heart connection, and you trust that, that gut instinct, you can do some amazing, amazing stuff.

Divya alter 

I think this is your blessing, Nik. Thank you. I keep that in mind because I need motivation to but thank you so much for your kind words. It's it's very, very humbling for me.

Nik Tarascio 

My pleasure. And again, for those you that are listening, if you're interested to learn more about what Divya is up to, you could go to Divyas.com. She has an incredible seasonal food box on there that you could check out if you want to experience Ayurveda cooking.

Also, again, this really is something we don't do any sponsorships on here and we don't take any money for this. This is art for me not commerce. I truly love her masterclass. So when I say that if you're curious, learn just to learn more about this and find it maybe there is some curiosity or connection there. You could check out her masterclass on the same website. And she was kind enough to give us a discount code of dream 100. And if you put that in, you'll save $100 off the class. So if you want to check that out, we'll put some other stuff in the show notes. But again, this was something that is just so near and dear to my curiosity and I hope some of you were inspired by this as well. And Divya, thank you again so much for giving your your entire heart to the conversation.

Divya alter 

Thank you. Thank you so much for having such a pleasure. I can't wait to see you in the restaurant again. Thank you.

Nik Tarascio 

Absolutely Take care. Bye bye. Thank you for listening to the dream beyond. I hope that you received whatever message or inspiration you were meant to get from today's episode. I had a great time recording it for you. If you love the show, please take 30 seconds to subscribe rate and review it. That really helps get the word out. And if you want to connect with me, you can find me at

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Episode 15 - Unleashing the Entrepreneurial Spirit & Rewriting the Rules of Success with John Ratliff

John Ratliff 

But one of the things you are when you're an entrepreneurs builder, you're literally creating something out of nothing. Whether it's a startup or a new division or a new service offering or even new marketing materials, new ads, new copy new content, whatever it is, we we are blessed we get the gift as entrepreneurs to be in constant creation mode now, because that's, that's literally how you build the future of business.

Nik Tarascio 

This episode is honestly one of my favorite. This guest is going to be talking about just his incredible journey through the entrepreneurial arc from the highs to the lows, to the spiritual awakenings and a bunch of lessons along the way. So I really hope you take some time to sit with this one, write some notes. I mean, there's just so much good stuff that that he shares with us today. So hope you enjoy.

Welcome to the dream beyond. I'm your host, Nik Tarascio. I'm a CEO musician, an overall seeker of Truth, inspiration and simply put, how to live the most fulfilling life possible. Growing up surrounded by extremely wealthy and successful people gave me unique and unfiltered perspectives of those who have seemingly made it on the dream beyond we're letting you in on what it really takes to achieve your dreams. What happens when it turns out your destination isn't the promised land you are expecting and how to process the lessons from your past while mapping of course to true fulfillment. Let's get started.

All right. Hey, everybody. He is the CEO of scaling up coaches, and Managing Director and Partner of a line five strategic consultancy firm. He's also a serial entrepreneur with over 25 years of experience as a CEO and investment banker. He was the founder and CEO of Apple Tree answers. The telephone answering service started in 1955. And my favorite thing about him he's a fellow pilot, flying my favorite airplane, the TBM 850. Please welcome John Ratliff. Thanks so much for being here today, John.

John Ratliff 

Thanks, Nick, good to see you. I wish it was 15 years experience not over 25. But good to be.

Nik Tarascio 

All good. I'm on my way to you, man. I'm building that experience. So I appreciate it. And you know, I was really affected by you. And I saw you speak at one of the scaling up conferences, and you were talking about your journey. And I think it was about Michael singers book or something like that. And I just saw you like, really kind of go there with the emotional stuff. And it made me want to touch on that today. But even go a little further back, which was you've had this incredible success throughout your career, at least from what it seems from the outside. And I was wondering like, what was that early dream for you when you were a teenager when you were just finding your way towards business? What was that? What was the first thing you really dreamed up?

John Ratliff 

Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I the running joke in my family was I was 10 years old. And you know, instead of firemen or policemen, when when I got the question, what do you want to do when you grow up? I didn't even know the word entrepreneur was really not a word that was being used a lot back then. But I kind of always had this idea that I wanted to own a business. And I was fascinated by it from an early age. And I don't know if it was a desire to be independent, or, or, you know, call my own shots. And I'm not sure but I knew from a very, very young age and, you know, I was the kid with the paper route. And, you know, always thinking about, you know, what can I do that mowed lawns, and then hired other kids to mow lawns and, and then in high school did things out of business in college doing marketing. And so it was, it was really kind of in my blood, I think the whole way that I got out of college and I worked for, I worked for a wireless phone company for about six or seven months as a commissioned salesperson and then convinced the carrier back then to let me open my own stores. I was the ripe old age of 22. And the rest is history. So I haven't worked for anyone, since that that was one of the two jobs that ever held was the commission only salesperson, so might as well. So

Nik Tarascio 

Where do you think it came from? You said it was in you know, you felt it in your blood? But who inspired that? Or where do you think the source was for you?

John Ratliff 

Yeah, you know, it's fascinating. My dad was a fortune 500 C suite level executive. So ran global sales for a company that at their peak was probably fortune 360 ad reported directly to the CEO. And I, I kind of just love the idea of business in general. And but what I didn't love watching my dad's career and was how long it took them to get into the C suite. So I thought, you know, the quick solution is you figure it out on your own and you start your own company. And so I think my love of business came from watching my dad and kind of how he operated in the business world and then I think my impatience was probably what led me to pursue the entrepreneurial route. It's funny, I interned at the company that, you know, that he worked with in college.

And this was in the late 80s, early 90s. And there were a bunch of sales guys there that were making, there were two days in that office making seven figures in like 1990, which is, you know, massive amount back then. And I knew that I wanted to be entrepreneurial, and they were like, You're crazy, should go work in corporate America. And this is where, you know, this is where you can make more money than anywhere else. And in hindsight, you know, I, I still stand by my decision to be an entrepreneur, but there was certainly some pressure early on that, you know, to go a different path. But I think that was probably why I didn't want to wait, I didn't want to take the time. That's probably why I'm not a doctor, I didn't want to do 12 years of medical school, I wanted to kind of make my mark straight away. I didn't want to go to college.

Nik Tarascio 

Like, do you speak about becoming a doctor, like a jail sentence? do much? Well, you know, it's

John Ratliff 

my younger brother. We're neurologists, and I, you know, I watched his career and but, you know, I think he was in his early to mid 30s, before he actually got to get out in the world and kind of do what he does. So, man, it's like patience. I think that's probably in hindsight, my massive level of impatience that that led me to be entrepreneurial.

Nik Tarascio 

And then once you got there, and you started, you started your own business, and you're kind of moving through that. Was it different than what you thought the dream would be? Like? It was the dream, to own a business and to be running a business was the dream to exit a business? Like, you know, I'm curious how that compared to the reality of it when you were actually in the trenches?

John Ratliff 

No, the dream was to own and run never really, in the beginning thought about exit. And, you know, probably the most surprising part of all of it was a how much you don't know, you know, the, the knowledge gap, when there's a lot of subtle things about being successful as an entrepreneur, and be lonely it is because most of my friends went traditional routes, one of my best friends growing up ones, that attorney wants a school teacher.

And, you know, when you when you sit around, it's difficult to explain the entrepreneurial journey to others. And it and that's, you know, we'll get to the medical center stuff, I think, it really creates kind of a sense of loneliness. And, and I, I actually believe that one of the things that leads you to be entrepreneurial, certainly add is, you know, most entrepreneurs carry that add trait. So you're, you're just sort of antsy and unsettled. And I think that's part of it. But you also see things in the world that aren't optimal, and you have a desire to make them optimal. So I think it can be frustrating, it can be lonely, it can be hard to talk about. That was probably the biggest surprise, you know, I I end early, you know, when you start and you're in startup mode, and you don't know a lot it, you know, the early days can really be frustrating. And they were for sure.

Nik Tarascio 

Were there. I mean, were there actually moments where, you know, you had that that corporate person you were talking about in your head, it was saying you should have gone this path. Did you have those moments of incredible self doubt.

John Ratliff 

So I started the I started a wireless company, seven months after, you know, working for the the one real job that I had, and managed to sell that business, actually to my former employer about two years later and started a call center business, which turned into Apple Tree answers. And I was about that business was 24/7 365, and started completely from scratch. And I did a lot of the shoulder period work where you know, someone had to be there around the clock to answer the phone. I was trying to build the business during the day and we had people that were in during the day to answer the phone.

But I lived at the office, it was in a commercially zoned apartment complex and I lived in the office and I would do all the overnights and weekends and there were there were literally weeks and possibly months where I never left the office because I was I was the one answering the phone and there was a moment about two years and it was four in the morning on a Monday. So it was I worked the entire weekend by myself. It was it was Saturday night, Sunday night and then Sunday into Monday. And I had not slept more than two hours in probably, I don't know four or five days and I had this a big buzzer next to my bed so when the phone rang, the buzzer would go off and wake me up and we had residential neighbors upstairs. They love that but so the buzzer would go off and it would wake me from a dead sleep and I'd go and stumbling and answer the phone. It was about like I said for a Monday Warning, the buzzer went off and I was done. I'd had enough and the way I had it set up so I was sort of sounded awake enough to actually be on the phone, I had to walk by this closet in the apartment and all the equipment for the call center, like the phones and the computers and stuff are in this closet. And I walked by and I glanced in there, the light was on and I'm like, I'm done. I've done enough.

And I went in there and I literally grabbed kind of mainframe computer switch that ran everything and I put my hands on it. That was getting yanked out out of the tax, I was gonna yank it out of the wall, throw it on the ground and sleep for two days, because I was done. And I put my hands on it, I reached out and I grabbed it. And I had one of those like, you know, they talked about your life passes before your eyes, like I actually saw it was crazy. But I saw kind of my business life passed before my eyes and and I realized in that moment that if I am so close by just got this out and figure out a way to get through the next couple of months and couple of years that there's something really good on the other end. And I have my whole kind of mindset changed in that in in that instant. And the sense of calm came over me and I was obviously wide awake at this point. And I when I sat down this, there's a punch line to the story. But I sat down and the call was what we did in the call center business was we answered the phone for companies, when they weren't there to do it themselves.

For some of them. It was around the clock. For some it was after hours, this happened to be an after hours one. It was it was Delaware Express, they used to pick people up and take them to the airport and four o'clock. They got lots of calls at four o'clock in the morning. So I sit down to answer it. I'm all ready to help this person figure out how they're going to get to the airport or their drivers not there or whatever. So I answered the phone. I said good morning, Delaware express how may I help you and I hear a voice on the other end of the phone good. Ah, sorry, man, wrong number and hangs up. So I almost threw it all the way over a wrong number for one of our clients. But it was that moment where I just I just had enough of a shift that I knew if I got it out. I was gonna I was gonna be okay. So that was my, it lasted. But I was ready to be in the C suite in that instant for sure.

Nik Tarascio 

But how did you and how did you make meaning of that? On the other side? I mean, it sounds like now you've put it into a clear box of like, Oh, that was in many ways my life flashing before my eyes. And I saw the two paths in the moment. I mean, did you think you're crazy or delusional like or was it really this knowing that came over you like that was something beyond me.

John Ratliff 

So I sat down and after it was the wrong number, I just sort of laughed, and I just kind of sat there and said, All right. Like, you know, and back then I am now but back then I wasn't a big like, you know, that's a sign kind of guy. But. But I sat there for probably 10 minutes or so. And I just thought like, I've put so much work and so much effort to get to this moment. To throw it away now would be a disservice to all the people that supported me to all the people that, you know, we didn't really have outside investors, but my family had lent money and I owed money to friends and family that that helped me along the way and to quit would be not only quitting on me, but it'd be quitting on them.

And yeah, just, you know, it all shipped out. Listen, there were a lot of dark days between that that realization and today, but it just kind of changed my perspective a little bit on, you know, there's more people than just me that, you know, are counting on me here. And, you know, we had at the time, probably, she's 100 150 customers, and it would have been a lot on I'm glad that I came to my senses and didn't throw it all all the way in that that moment, but it would have been a lot to unwind it over weeks or months. So you know, that was probably the revelation was, hey, there's a lot that's gone into this. A lot of people are counting on you suck it up and figure this out. So I did.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah. And, again, I mean, I imagine that a lot of people go through that moment that, you know, is this even worth it? I hope it's worth it, but only if the future gets brighter. You know, you've done coaching with people. So I imagine, you know, what advice do you give to people that are there kind of approaching that cliff right? You can kind of see as they're going into, like they're kind of falling out of love with their business. They're not sure if this is the right path. Other stuff looks really interesting. Yeah. What do you impart on people in that space?

John Ratliff 

Yeah, one of the things you know, I get to I get asked a lot to talk to kind of new young entrepreneurs and, you know, even pre startup or startup one of the things I say all the time, it sounds a little like a platitude, but it's to me it's totally true is you have to be willing to say I am NOT what willing to fail. Like, if, if I'm not going to make it, it's because I left every single ounce of everything I have on the field. And I just ran out of runway like, and if if you're someone that gets discouraged and has a track record, and you've got to look inside, and I believe, I believe anyone can be an entrepreneur, but I also believe you have to have a certain mindset and makeup. And I believe you can learn that mindset and learn that makeup. But if you don't want to, or you're not willing to, then you should never ever think about an entrepreneurial path. And that mindset is, failure is not an option.

And again, I know that sounds cliche, but it really is because it would have been i and when I tell you, I was like, I don't remember a lot of 1997 I was that sleep deprived. And in that moment, it would have been totally easy to say that this, this is crazy. Like, I don't see an end inside and I can give up right now, no one would have questioned and said, Hey, I can't believe you quit, like, and my mom who did our books, and would answer the phone during the day to help out sometimes, literally said to me every single day for over a year, this is the dumbest idea you've ever had, you should you should get rid of this thing tomorrow. So I had the backing of my mind support team and my family to throw in the towel. But in hindsight, and if you're a young entrepreneur, or you're thinking about this path, again, anyone can do it for you better, like have the right mindset and mental approach to it.

And failure can't be it, you can't give up easy because you'll never make it. And when you hear great success stories, there's always some of those more I need to do this. Probably a lot. And there's always some of those moments where that was the fork in the road. And I happen to go right and thank God right was the correct direction or left or whatever it was, and, and often those are those moments of like, do I quit? Or do I not? And, you know, you can't be willing to throw in the towel. Unless, you know your health is at risk or you you literally exhausted every every option. So and yeah, failure is important. And I get it like, but it's it's failures along the way, but but quitting on what you're trying to build. That's what I'm talking about. Not it's okay to fail. But it's, it's to me, not okay to just quit and throw in the towel.

Nik Tarascio 

So it's a huge difference, I think, too. And I'm curious to know, from the time you were in that year, where you again, were driving yourself to this level of sleep deprivation, how much of it was driven by you know, this belief that there was something better on the other side and how much was just self abuse.

John Ratliff 

So when I when I talked about my business life flashed before my eyes, that final scene was the belief that something better was on the other side. So I was deeply entrenched in that belief in that. You know, the running joke about I saw the light at the end of the tunnel, but wasn't sure if it was an oncoming train. I saw the light at the end of the tunnel. And listen, it sucks for five more years. I mean, don't get me wrong, it was it was brutally hard. One of my one of my running joke pieces of advice is don't start at 24/7 365 business, unless you have at least five partners one for each day to work around the clock.

But I was a I was a cap table of one I was the only you know, I was the only one so but it was in that moment that I saw it and I knew like not only saw but knew, like internally knew if I stick with this, it's going to work and there's going to be a good outcome. So that's got to be I mean, it if it were easy anyone would do it being an entrepreneurs is probably the most irrational decision anyone can ever make. The odds are stacked I mean, you know, there's no backstop, it's easier when you're young. It's really hard when you have a family but but it's also it when done well and, and part of your chords. It's the single greatest gift you can give yourself which is freedom and independence. So but it is a wrap zone every single way.

Nik Tarascio 

And so you're saying it's not only hard to be an entrepreneur, but also may be hard to run a 24/7 airline that that may not be the most rational decision. Yeah,

John Ratliff 

I would. Absolutely. Absolutely say when it's only you and it's three in the morning. It's not Yeah, it's absolutely irrational. But yeah,

Nik Tarascio 

I think that's probably why a lot of airlines are family but As nurses, because you need a lot of family members to put up with the shit of it's Christmas, though and like nobody cares. It's nobody cares about your personal life anymore. No,

John Ratliff 

no, it's Christmas, I need to get from point A to point B. So that's

Nik Tarascio 

right. I mean, it's right. Even more. So. Yeah. Yeah. So we've dealt with dealt with a lot of that. And,

John Ratliff 

you know, all kidding aside, sometimes it's, I'm not, I'm not a great partner. So I struggle in partnership style. I'm, I'm in part I've been in and I'm currently in partnerships. I don't think I make a good partner, because I'm so fiercely independent. But there are times where it's really nice to have somebody else to just say, Hey, I'm like, at the end, can you you know, can you handle this? Or can you handle this. So there's a lot to be said, for having people around you that that you can, you know, talk to, and then pass things off to when you're when you're at the break or your breaking point. And I didn't have that which, you know, in hindsight, it would have been nice to have.

Nik Tarascio 

You know, the other thing that really stands out, and what you said for me is like there have been almost in my life. But you know, I grew up I'm generation to have a family business that I think the vision was survival. Like when you really think like, what do you guys envision for the future? It's like just making it through the next pay cycle, and figure out a way to not go out of business. But you know, there were times where we just kind of adrift and didn't have a vision of the future and what you said about having that vision, if it will get better. That sounds like the true north of anybody. I mean, even if it's a relationship, that's hard, right? If you're like I'm in a marriage, that's really difficult. I mean, that vision of the future seems to be the lifeline that allows people to muster that last bit of energy and push through. And, you know, when you said that, that really brought that, to me were like, my hardest years were the ones where I didn't know where I was going. Yeah, I didn't know why I was working so hard.

John Ratliff 

It's fascinating. I, I think and especially that I've tripled down on this thought, but I think the most important skill an entrepreneur possesses is creativity. And that was never more apparent. Like I said, I tripled down during COVID. I think that's, that's three times more important than it was in 2019. But even in 2019, I think the most important skill you can possess as an entrepreneur is creativity. The second most important skills, optimism, because you have to be the second that you're pessimistic about the future, you start making sub optimal decisions subconsciously, if you don't see a brighter future, there's a really, really good chance you're gonna make suboptimal decisions. So if he can muster even in the darkest days, you can muster some semblance of optimism. I think that can be the sort of the energy that propels you through. And, you know, I know some pretty Rockstar entrepreneurs names that you would know. And that's one of those skills that I'm always amazed that in their darkest days, in the face of like, this is impossible. They're still optimistic. And those lessons from some of those people are ality so it's been been pretty cool. Yeah, the

Nik Tarascio 

pandemic was a great lesson in that I remember when we first went into it, we doubled very early in the pandemic, partly because when people were basically protecting their cash, we went out and bought anything we could buy the fit with art, we were hire people hold all of our people buy new planes, because the thought was if the whole industry goes to zero, I'd rather go down in flames. Like, let's have fun with this thing. Yeah. But if it turns the other direction, we might as well play for the win. Yeah. And you're right, if we hadn't had that moment of, you know, there's actually a lot of hope here, I think we would have missed the boat. And we would have been stuck defending this square when everyone else had already placed their bets.

John Ratliff 

Yeah. And that, you know, you, you say an interesting thing. When you talk about defending the square, sometimes when you've started to taste or have some semblance of success, you're playing not to lose instead of to win. And, and, you know, with our coaching community, we really saw there were there were three very distinct mindsets through the pandemic. And we, we changed from, we used to get on a call with our coaches once a month. We were doing two or three calls a week at one point just to see and it was cool because we have 250, scaling up coaches all around the world. So we were getting to see the pandemic from a global perspective. We had a coach in China, for instance, that was like at the tip of the spear and Europe and South America and, you know, Africa, a couple of coaches in Africa and India. And we really saw three distinct kind of mindsets. And one was there was a group of entrepreneurs that were being coached by our clients that just went into motion like as long as they were in motion.

They weren't really thinking about what they were doing, but they had to just take action like that was there. And I'm talking about in the very early days, the March, April days up to wanting to it. And then the second group, total deer in the headlights, they just froze and didn't know what to do. And their fear, like literally caused them to be, like completely stuck, bad, no action whatsoever and no creativity or thinking. And then the third grid sort of took a step back and said, Okay, this is this is new, but I've relative experience from the past, maybe not directly correlated. But, you know, I understand patterns of business. And I've got gut instinct and some decision making chops. Let me just observe and see what's going on. And then let me fit in. I don't know if you're familiar with OODA, loop, Oda, it's from the fighters, John Boyd. So from an OODA Loop perspective, they were in observation mode, so no bias, just let me take in all the data that I can't, we actually adopted the OODA loop on these on a weekly sort of rhythm and pace for the coaches. And would be hard this week, we're just going to observe that first Oh, and who to Oh, the, we're just going to observe no bias, like, we're not going to assign what we think to what we see, we're just gonna take in all the data we can. In week two, we're going to orient, which is the second Oh, nuda.

Where do we fit in? Like, what's, what's our place? And what we've just observed, and then a fighter pilot kind of pilots, it's, you know, kept taking in all the data. But where do I fit in the data? Where's my wingman? And where's the sun? Where's, you know, as a cloudy is said, Friday out, it's windy, all those things. And then the third week was okay, now we need to make a decision, what are we going to do next. And then we need to take action and decision and action happened in the same week, but it stretched out, don't decide this week and take action next. But what I love about that framework, that mindset of the OODA Loop is as soon as you take action, you immediately go back into observation mode. And the coaches that were the most successful, and the entrepreneurs that were most successful, were the ones that immediately soon as I took an action, again, went back to no bias. And let's just see what happens. Let's see what's going on in the the analogy we give, we give a million of them. But one of the ones that resonates as you think about if you watch basketball, a great player takes three point shot, and they admire their shot as it's arcing through the air towards the basket. So they've taken their action, but they're not back to observation yet.

They're actually pausing to admire their whatever their action, their shot. The world class player sues the balls left his hand. He doesn't care if it goes in or not. He's right back to observation. Okay, where are the opponents? I, you know, that shot, I see it arcing. But I'm not going to stand here and admire it, I'm gonna like figure out where I fit, I'm gonna orient again. And I'm making the next decision, I'm taking the next action for the balls, even to the basket. And, and again, John Boyd, the fighter pilot said, if I can get my loop tighter, and I can get inside my opponent, and then COVID will call coach with the opponent if, if I can get inside that loop, that I have an advantage over that over the competitor. And, and again, it was that third group of our coaches and our clients. And eventually we got everyone in this mindset was, let's observe, let's orient, let's decide act.

And let's observe again, and they were the ones that really thrived. And I hear with you, you know, you guys buying airplanes. And obviously, assets were on sale for half price. That whole time. And it sounds like you went through a lot of those same iterations, like Alright, see what's going on, let's see where we are able to make a decision, take action, and let's see where we are. So I admire the fact that you took action during a period where a lot of people were completely stuck. And that's what's up became, again, I three times more important during that period than it ever was. But always, I think the most important skill for an entrepreneur.

Nik Tarascio 

Well, just like any good creativity, I'm gonna go completely off script with where I wanted to go with you now that you talked about that. So, of course, create creativity is an interesting thing for me, because, you know, again, as evidenced by the guitars on my wall, I was a musician and I never I rejected business. I said, I don't want to be a suit. Something about being a suit just scared the hell out of me was like, that's just death while I'm still alive. And only to find out that for me, going back to the visioning is that I saw the most important creative act I need to have is to paint a picture so compelling of the future that people would dedicate their life, their time away from their family to help build it.

And when it got hard, they'd be like, it's still a really beautiful picture. And it reminds me of what's possible. Yeah. And it's really that that I was like, well, writing a song is one thing, building a vision of the future that hasn't happened yet. That is just a whole other level of artistry. And so I am curious to hear more about how you seek Creativity showing up for you are some of the other people that you've worked with, because I've never really made that connection that maybe I'm actually a good entrepreneur because I'm a creative, you know, the creative, the creative part of me, not in spite of it.

John Ratliff 

I totally, I mean, one of the things you are when you're an entrepreneurs builder, you're literally creating something out of nothing, whether it's a startup or a new division, or a new service offering or even new marketing materials, new ads, new copy new content, whatever it is, we we are blessed we get the gift, as entrepreneurs to be in constant creation mode. No, because that's, that's literally how you build the future of business. If you and again, I admire the people that show up to make our creative visions reality, and how can we compel people to to be part of what we want to create. But if you don't create a compelling vision, there's no place for people to show up to play in that game. And I also believe that one of the reasons you're so drawn, and again, I'm going to be super assumptive.

But part of it my my oldest five, a 20 year old, who's a singer songwriter, I was just on a United flight and one of the movies in rotation on the United flight. As a 20 year old, he's got songwriting credit in that movie. So he's, he's at the top of his game, and I've watched him grow up as a creative. But one of the things that really compels him, and I would imagine you is his creativity, the ability to move other people, right, so you write a song and write it for yourself first. But you also write it to be out in the world and inspire others. It's no different in business and creating a really compelling vision for a business and building something from nothing. Your businesses don't live in a vacuum, they exist to serve customers and serve employees, and serve stakeholders. Without the creative energy that goes into the building of that nothing happens.

And probably the same reason you want to construct a song for you first, but for others to enjoy, is what drives you to build business for you first, but for others to solve a problem or get from A to B or show up to work and feel like they're part of something bigger than themselves. And I think that's our, that's our burden. And our gift is entrepreneurs. And I don't want to again, it sounds platitude, and cliche, but someone's got to build that stuff, right? Because if if, if all of us were really good gone to work in other people's visions, there'd be no vision, right? Someone's got to create the compelling case. And yeah, that's, that's the thing I love the most about being entrepreneurs, the creation part. So that's why I'm super super, like adamant that creativity is the most important skill. So

Nik Tarascio 

yeah, it's, again, as you were talking, it just really brought me through of how much both my music and my relationship to the business have followed the exact same arc, which is I used to suffer to create from my own pain. And I'm like, no wonder why I love my family's business. It was most painful thing I could imagine. It was the 24/7 Sleep deprivation. I basically lived at the hangar doing the same things for am flights and all types of crazy stuff. And I was like, Wow, this this was at the end of the day, I was self referential, how do I make this thing survive for me and for my family? I noticed over the last five years, this real shift into what is it like to create from abundance?

Like what is it like to create in service of others, my music has become that my business leadership has become that where it's like, yeah, I care more about the culture of the company than even what we do. If we have people that love their day, and love the job and love the work that they do, and customers that appreciate that I don't really care what I'm putting out. I don't care if it's airplanes or, you know, we're paint houses. So it's really interesting to hear you say that I've never really visualized how those two things were in lockstep. So it's, it has been my spiritual path, which kind of tees up I'm curious about yours. And that's really what I think drew me to you in the first place was you talking about I think it was being on a flight. I don't want to ruin your story. But I remember you talking about reading one of the Michael singer books.

John Ratliff 

Yeah. Well, and I definitely want to get into that because it's such a cool story. But just taking one step back for you. I would imagine there was a moment where, like you grew up in a family business. And we we see it again, in our in our conscious community. We work with lots and lots and lots of family businesses in m&a. I've taken lots family companies to market there was probably a moment where you wax and feeling like you are sort of forced into the family business as in a in an employment role and quite possibly the worst possible employment role because you didn't have a lot of choice in the matter and someone else's vision was guiding what you needed to do it for them.

And then that was probably a flip of the switch like, Hey, I have some say I have a seat at the table. I have a stake in this outcome, and I can do some of the Creation work. So we see that all the time and in family business But fast forward to the to Michael singer and in that whole piece to the puzzle. So, you know I in the flight you were right, so I battled depression. And I strongly believe that a lot of what compels people to be entrepreneurs, is they are dissatisfied with the status quo. They want to go out and make change in the world, they want to create it a lot of creatives battled depression, a lot of entrepreneurs, I think, battled depression, the stats say, seven or eight out of 10, at some point in their entrepreneurial journey will have a moderate or greater, depressive moment. For me it was it started early on I was I was a kid, battled through high school I battled through college, never talked about it kind of didn't even really acknowledge it to myself, but it was always with me. And the metaphor I use, it was like having a blanket, and there were some times blanket was really heavy.

Or sometimes I was barely sort of cognizant that it was there, but it was always with me. And it was always sort of weighing me down. And then I go through my, there were some dark days, like I shared ripping the thing out of the wall that was a super depressive period. So I go all the way through to the end, and I I sell the company and you know, should have been the happiest kind of set of moments in my life but still battling like, now you sort of lose your identity and and all the things that went with it. So it was really like it actually kind of heightened my depressive state. And again, my my arc was, you know, from, at times, suicidal to times, barely, barely recognized that I was depressed, but it was always with me. And I was part of a group called Genius Network. I'm still part of it today got in Joe call us out in Phoenix and and Joe is a great mentor to entrepreneurs. And he's been on his own journey with addiction and all sorts of other stuff. So, but like one of those real good curators of like groups and and thought leadership and ideas.

So I went out to one of his meetings and and we would meet three or four times a year in Phoenix, and he had put out in front of everyone that they're up there, you know, see the Untethered Soul by Michael singer. And one of the weird things that happened when I was in my more depressive states, I lost my ability to read. And I'm a lifelong learner, like, I believe that that's another like creativity, optimism, lifelong learner, right third on the list of important skills for our for our success. When you can't read, it's hard. And then you know, video and audible and stuff, but I literally had kind of lost, I could read a page or two and then have a really bad headache. The word started to look weird. So the books out there, I'm like, Yeah, great. I can't read anyway, so I tucked it in my briefcase. And I was flying the TBM at the time, but Phoenix I would only do the TBM from from Wilmington, Philly area to Phoenix if I had other stops to make. So I happened to be on a commercial flight.

And so the books in the briefcase, I'm flying home, somewhere over probably Nebraska. And I don't even know I reached down but I reached down and pulled out the Untethered Soul. And I started to read and realize them, like 10 pages in 20 pages in 30 pages and and kind of like, well, I'm surprised that can even get this far. Because normally it's two pages, and I'm done. And I get somewhere around I don't know, probably, I think I should know what page it is. But there's a section in the book where he talks about depression and trauma and and how a lot of times we just suppress negative emotions instead of dealing with them and moving on from them and that you carry negative emotions, like physical energy inside your body. And if you can just let it go. Oftentimes, you let it go forever. No, that's fascinating. And then again, he talks Michael singer talks in the book about if you can just sort of like when you're experiencing negativity, instead of like cramming it down, like just sort of move by. But he said, but you've got years if not decades of other negative that you've crammed in.

And the best way to get rid of it is to just kind of, again, it's a physical like, reference, but it's on a mental topic, but he's like, just kind of lean away from it and like feel your heart open up and like know that all that negatives like down into your stomach and just sort of let it like, Come out, come out, relive it one more time and let it go. So I'm like yeah, You know that's that's an whatever I'm I'm just happy I'm reading I'm lookouts and interesting idea. Know what made me do it but I just sort of sat back in my seat sitting in like, row two and first class, right. And I just sort of sit back in my seat. And I, I let like some weird negative thing and I was thinking about like, it did exactly what he described in the book. And like, I like, feel it in my chest like, and it comes up and I like felt this weird thing in my throat and I watched it sort of go away. And he's like, Oh, that was interesting. So like, I let like something else go. Next thing I know, my whole body's like, I put my finger in a electrical socket. I'm like, literally, like, I feel like I'm like humming like vibrating. All this energy is like, flooding into me. And all this negative shit. And sorry to curse on your podcast, but

Nik Tarascio 

it's okay. We could put it explicit.

John Ratliff 

All this negative stuff, we can make it where you make good stuff. Oh, is that your stuff? Is like coming out of me. And I'm like, buzzing like, like absolutely euphoric. And I realize, which is the hilarious part that like, tears of joy are literally streaming down my face, where they're like, dripping off my shirt. And I remember distinctly having this moment where I'm like, Oh, my gosh, I am sure everyone in first class thinks I'm absolutely out of my mind. And I'm like, probably preparing to take this plane down. Right? So I put sunglasses on because I'm so like, I'm not even embarrassed. I'm just aware of like, what is the sociopath doing and to see like crying like this. I mean, it was not like, it wasn't like, it was just euphoria, like just so I get off the plane. I'm still like, total like, like vibration, like Buzz state that lasted.

And for the first time since I was 12, the blanket was gone. And I mean, like, totally gone. I felt lighter. I felt like it was it was crazy. Like, I know, this story, contextually sounds bizarre, but trust me, it was like, That lasted for six weeks. And it was funny because I had a friend of mine that I hadn't seen in probably six months. And spacetime to me should request. She was doing an acquisition, and she wanted to ask about it. And she FaceTimed me. And she's like, Oh my God, you look like you've lost like 50 pounds, I had not lost an ounce. But she noticed in the first 10 seconds on a FaceTime that this weight that was on noon, which was this blanket, literally, it was gone. And it was and I can't tell you how many people in that ensuing six weeks while I was still like, totally connected to this energy. We're like, You look totally different.

And nothing changed except for except for that. So obviously, and I tell that story from stage, and I've recommended the Untethered Soul to 1000s of people, I get people that I don't even know all the time come up to me and they're like, I can't believe it, that that totally changed me. So for anyone that's, you know, battling depression, and, and it's not a cure all for everybody. But there's some great like mindsets in there about just how to release stuff that is not serving us at all that we're holding on to just because we didn't want to deal with it in the first place. I mean, some of this stuff I was carrying around for decades. And it all just sort of went. So it's crazy story. It's great. And it's amazing. I was not I had a spiritual awakening moment, actually in the British Virgin Islands on Necker Island. But I was not a super spiritual person at this particular moment in time, I became one down the road and now but that was not like this wasn't a woowoo I'm like, super spiritual. This was just a technique on how to get rid of negative crap that we're carrying around. So

Nik Tarascio 

beautiful story. I was affected by it. It was I heard it like 10 years ago, or eight years ago or something, and it always stuck with me.

John Ratliff 

I still to this day, have people that will come up to me and it's tell Believe me when I tell you, I was probably with you if you were stealing up probably in front of seven or 800 people and I get emotional when I tell it and it's hard to do that. It'd be that vulnerable in front of the number of people but I actually feel like it's my responsibility. Because it happened for me the to go through to share. So that's why I share it. I don't share it because it's fun to get on stage and cry in front of several people, but it was it was the most powerful. To that point in my life. It was one most powerful thing I've ever experienced. So who's crazy?

Nik Tarascio 

That's a Yeah, it's a big one. And I think it's that wait. I see it all the time, especially with entrepreneurs. I see it all the time where, you know, you ask the question at a conference, how's it going? It's good. And you know, or it's great. And you're like, No, I see the weight. I see the weight on you. Yeah, it is beautiful to see that, you know, books like Michael singers books. And that was a that was a big one for me, too. That was definitely one that was like, Oh, shit. There's like a whole other realm of stuff going on here that I can't quite understand. Yeah. But but you know, coming, coming through something like that, and later finding a connection to spirituality. I am curious what, you know, what have you found? Or what what is the relationship to fulfillment as you've kind of gone through the door of like, you had a lot of the external trappings of success. I mean, literally, you're living the I got the plane, I sold the company, I did all that stuff. How has that changed your concept of fulfillment for yourself?

John Ratliff 

Well, you know, one thing that I've really like, and again, the lesson just gets repeated over and over and over to the point where you have to, like, you can't not pay attention to it anymore. Some of the most successful people that I know, and I'm unfortunate or, or not, maybe to be surrounded by ultra ultra successful people all the time. And the vast majority of them are completely unhappy, they're completely out of alignment. And the more unhappier they are, the harder they work, the more success they find, and the more they chase it, the more unhappy they are. And it becomes this really like disempowering circle. And some of the happiest people I know, are they have, they have whatever level of success they have. But they're comfortable in their own skin.

They're excited about the future, they love to be around their friends and family. And they're grateful for the littlest things in the moment. And they're not chasing stuff that at the end of the day doesn't matter. And, yeah, I get it, it's easy to say that if you've had, you know, kind of the successful outcomes that I've had, but I can tell you that at my peak of success, I was the least happy. And now I would say where I don't chase success anymore. And it's not, you know, and I've have invested a lot in others. And I've done a lot of things. And my level of success today is probably less than it was but at its peak. But I find gratitude and things now that I used to not have time for because I was so busy chasing some ideal so and then again, money can buy you happiness to a point where you've got enough to be an independent thinker and do the things you want to do. And so I'm not saying this is like, don't worry about making money, don't worry about being successful. But if you can't find gratitude along the way, you're gonna chase happiness forever and be miserable. And that's that's probably the biggest lesson there. There's a guy named Dan Sullivan, he's got an organization called Strategic Coach. I don't know, do you know are familiar with Dan, coach?

Dan Dennett has this great metaphor. And if we have time, I'm happy to share because I think it's super powerful. Yeah, oh, yeah. Dan has this great metaphor, he talks about the gap. And we live in the gap. And the way he describes it is take your three year old self back to the first time you were ever on a beach. And that's about the time in our life that we have enough awareness to realize that we can see the horizon of the ocean. So when you stand on the beach, you look out in the ocean. And when you're six feet tall, it's about six miles. So I guess when you're three, and you're three feet tall, maybe three miles, but you can see that there's an edge to the ocean. And then he Fast Forwards and he says, Okay, we know that the rest of our lives that there's this horizon, on the ocean. And then he uses the metaphor when we when we start to try and achieve and set goals. We naturally set our goals out on the horizon.

And then we get the boat and we start to sail towards our goal. And so we've we've put it out on the horizon, we start to sails sail towards it. And what happens when we're a mile or two miles away from that goal? What's our what's the view out of the front of the boat? The next horizon in the next horizon in the next horizon, the horizon never comes. And what happens is we finally get to the goal. But we've lost interest in that because we're still looking at the horizon which is still six miles away, because it's always going to be six miles away till we get to Europe, I guess. But, and what we fail to do is when we pass that original Milestone that original horizon we forget Get to turn around, look and see how far we've come. So he's, again, his mind map thinking exercises. When you pass that first horizon, just drop a buoy in the water. And then when you get to the next horizon, drop another buoy in the water, and everyone's he calls it the gap, we're always in the gap between the horizon and where the boat is. And it never changes because the horizon moves as we move forward. And his mindset is drop a buoy in the water when you when you pass those horizons.

And everyone saw on the boat, just stand up and turn around, take a look at the string of buoys. And that will ground you and help you understand that you've achieved along the way that that the discontent that you're still six miles away, you're always six miles away from the next horizon. If you can see the student buoys, then, you know, you feel better about about what you've accomplished and what you've passed.

And that one really sticks with me all the time. Because I, I'm guilty of living in the gap all the time, I'm never sad, like, I'm always setting new goals, I'm always seeing new horizons, and I forget a lot to stand up and turn around and look at the buoys in the water. That's, that's what kids are great for, you can you know, your kids become your, you know, your expression of your success, and you get to see them all the time and get reminded that it's not just about chasing the goals, or as so

Nik Tarascio 

That's beautiful. Yeah. And I think that kind of brings me up to my last question for you, which is, you know, as a creative, and as someone who can create beautiful visions of what's possible, what do you you know, what's your dream beyond? What do you wake up dreaming about?

John Ratliff 

So, you know, I'm a huge believer in in purpose, core values, kind of, you know, I really struggled for an incredibly long time to finding my purpose. And I always kind of knew, like, all of us know, like, sort of intuitively, what gets us excited, and what we're about and what we stand for what we stand against, but not many of us, in our researcher and in our world have really been able to, like, articulate it to a point where it's compelling. And I'm embarrassed to say, with all the, all the work that I do in this space, and you know, in helping entrepreneurs, I finally was able to distill my purpose in the phrase, and I'm literally talking about in the last month, two months, how amazing.

Yeah, I know, it's crazy. I'm 52. But my purpose is really to make the complex simple for entrepreneurs. So I always knew, because what happened early on, in those dark, lonely days, there were some people that showed up in my life, with with no stake in my outcome and paid it forward. I actually don't believe in the term give back. Because give back means you took something from someone and I think entrepreneurs create, they don't take but so that's a semantics thing for me, but I believe you can give forward when when someone's done something for you, propels you, then it's your responsibility to give forward someone else. So I always knew I wanted to live in service of entrepreneurs, because so many people came and gave forward to me.

But I wasn't totally clear. But now, I've got an ability to look at complex situations and things and explain them in a way that makes them make sense. And that's really my purpose for the entrepreneur that's struggling, and trying to figure it all out. If I can, if I can make it a little bit easier for them or a little simpler, explain things in a way that make a little bit more sense and have them go, Oh, I get that now. And here's how I can apply that then that, then that's a success for me. So that's, that's kind of my purpose. But But yeah, I want to be in service to I want to do for other entrepreneurs, what was done for me early on, and I believe really deeply that the middle market, the companies like Jairus, and the companies like ours, are the ones that make all the things in the world happen. They make a create seven out of 10 jobs. They create all the innovative, all the innovative stuff was in the Fortune 500, the global 1000 They all play an important role.

And, you know, we're on technology created by by that group and but it's the middle market that really kind of brings texture and I think the best things to life and the middle market is a bunch of crazy entrepreneurs that see gaps in the market and see mismatches in the world and are discontent with the status quo and wake up every day to make change. And yeah, do they, some of them get to participate along the way and have massive success and build wealth and everything else. Yes. But the wealth is an outcome, that creation is what we all get to benefit from. And if I can, if I can help that group in any way, even if it's one to one, then you know, that's a successful day for me. So

Nik Tarascio 

that's beautiful. Well, from from the perspective of your purpose, I'll say you spent the last hour distilling down so many concepts to make it really simple. And I really hear that I really hear that aspect of it. And I don't want to overlook the fact that you're an incredible storyteller. I think that in many ways, you know, this stuff can sound boring, it can sound like a textbook. And when you tell it through your story, I think people can't help but find themselves on the edge of the seat going, like, holy shit, I just learned something. And I was entertained. And I was feeling not alone. So I think in many ways, the one of my favorite authors, Jamie Weil talks a lot about the idea that your purpose lives at the intersection of your trauma and your talent. And here's all these entrepreneurs wandering the world feeling alone. And it sounds like that's where you came from. And it seems like your mission is a lot of touching on that is I don't want people to feel alone in that space. And acknowledging that, man, that is a being an entrepreneur is a spiritual path, whether or not you mean it to be right, I really, really get that.

John Ratliff 

Yeah, and the more that you can kind of open your mind to that. And and I think the more opportunity there is to, and that's how you build gratitude, kind of right in front of you, you don't have to chase stuff around. So I know it's a little woowoo deck and I was not like that for a really long time. And but when I was when I finally started to connect those dots, it was it was way more fun and and it kind of way less lonely and way less frustrating, then, it had been prior. So sure.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, it's I'm, I'm again inspired. Even though I've heard that story before I hear it again. I'm like, man, it's such a it's such a beautiful, relatable experience. And I think it gives a lot of hope, even to me in this moment of like, I've had many of those moments, but it does give a lot of hope that there's a lot of people that can receive that help. And there's a lot of work to be done still. And that's partly why do the podcast, it's just a chance to say how do we tell the stories that can move people? Right, and that's the hope so hopefully, someone will hear and someone will be moved. And at least one person sends me a message about how your share moved them. I would just be like, yeah, man, I'm part of it. I'm part of it. I went from being a listener to a participant in your story.

John Ratliff 

You know, it's fascinating say that, to that I just, I was I was with a group last week on a really cool trip that we go on every year. And it's a group of Changemaker entrepreneurs. And and there's this mindset, like, oh, I want to impact a million people or billion people. And I want to change the world. And I want to do like, all these grandiose things. I remember I asked someone on the trip, like, you know, who said, I want to, I want to impact a million people. And I was like, What's the magic about a million people? And we have this amazing conversation that what if you impact one person, and the ripple effect of that impacts? A million people, they impact another person. And their ripple effect is a million in this, this mindset that yeah, if you could just get to, like, if you could just move the needle one degree for one person use, you've made a change in the world.

And I think sometimes, and I know entrepreneurs that are discontented by the idea that they feel like they've only affected 100,000 and not a million, and I'm more about the one like if I can connect to one person and you know, kind of change one person's path. And I have faith that that changes everything, and the ripple effect of those actions, change everything. And we had lots of great discussions about that last week. So I appreciate you say one person reaches out and says that it was a success, because I feel the same way. So thanks for that. See, right? We create all these ripples, but we don't get to see their impact, and then we're discontented. But all this good was created. And sometimes you just have to trust to put it out there. If it meets one person that the one right point in time that it was a win.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah. And that's that's very much how I've been operating. And so I'll sum up what I think I heard today because there was so much amazing stuff in such a short amount of time we talked about, you know, three, three really important traits of entrepreneurs, creativity, optimism, being a lifelong learner and your perspective. Really being able to vision for the future, check out the OODA loop. I love the OODA Loop obviously also, as a pilot, you know, I'm really into depression, suicidal ideation, mental health in general, in this space, something that is completely overlooked still. And there's a lot of you know, I come from an industry where if you, God forbid, say you've struggled with mental health, you'll lose your license, like they'll take your license away depending on what it is.

So it's a lot of shaming and causing people to live in a prison of their own experience. And again, I also I read the gap in the game and you're telling about the buoy concept I did not get from the book. So I appreciate you saying it that way. And really, that taking that moment to turn around and go, well look how far I've come. I do think we often forget that. So, man, I really hope we get to talk more about these kinds of things soon. And yeah, this was just really beautiful. And hopefully, you're also moved by what John shared. Again, if one of you was please send me a message. I'll also let John know that we're affecting one person at a time. And that's really what it's about. And in the meantime, John has just launched the full circle mastermind, which you could check out full circle, m m.com. I'd also have to say Untethered Soul, check it out. If you don't know it, gap in the game, check it out. If you don't know it. John, are there any other things you want to recommend based on what we talked about?

John Ratliff 

Yeah, I mean, for sure, if you just Google Oda loop, I mean, that's from a from a mindset kind of thinking methodology standpoint. I love it. Certainly Michael singer, and I actually believe that the Untethered Soul, excellent, but also the other book that Michael wrote, which is surrender experiment, that kind of tells a story of how he got to write Untethered Soul. And he actually wrote them in reverse order, but I really liked that book as well. And it's, it's, you know, and you can go see Michael singer actually, he's in I have been to his place that he talks about and surrender experiment three or four times out, and it's like west of Gainesville, in the middle of the woods, but and he Mondays and Thursdays I used to be I assume it still is, but you can actually go out there. And, you know, and see him in person that it was cool. I had the opportunity to tell them, hey, I read the I told him the story. I read the Untethered Soul. Here's what happened. And it's always nice to go back and tell someone Hey, you could always work into this. And here's how it impacted me. So. Oh, yeah, that I think you've covered it in it.

Nik Tarascio 

That's incredible. And well, thank you so much for the work on your heart into it to you, for sure. Yeah, man. My pleasure. Like I said, I appreciate you putting the heart into it. And maybe next time you get down to see Michael Allah, I'll meet you down there or something like that. That's really lovely.

John Ratliff 

Yeah, it's right into Gainesville. And then you drive 20 minutes to the middle of nowhere, and you're there. So yeah.

Nik Tarascio 

Incredible. Well, thanks. Thanks again. I hope everyone was was moved and I hope you all have a lovely day. Thanks, man. Thank you for listening to the dream beyond. I hope that you received whatever message or inspiration you were meant to get from today's episode. I had a great time recording it for you. If you love the show, please take 30 seconds to subscribe rate and review it. That really helps get the word out. And if you want to connect with me, you can find me at

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Episode 14 - Sex, Pleasure, and The Self with Miss Jaiya

Miss Jaiya 

Oh, if I just make my circumstances better, then I'll feel fulfilled and I definitely got trapped in that one, you know. And then I hit all my boxes, I checked every box I, my business was over seven figures. You know, I had the house I had the kid I had the partner, I had all the things I ever wanted in my life, and I still felt unfulfilled.

Nik Tarascio 

Today, we're going to be talking with one of the most outspoken experts on the topic of sex and sexuality, how that relates to fulfillment, and how you could have even more pleasure in your life.

Welcome to the dream beyond. I'm your host, Nik Tarascio. I'm a CEO musician, an overall seeker of Truth, inspiration, and simply put, how to live the most fulfilling life possible. Growing up surrounded by extremely wealthy and successful people gave me unique and unfiltered perspectives of those who have seemingly made it through on the dream beyond, we're letting you in on what it really takes to achieve your dreams. What happens when it turns out your destination isn't the promised land you are expecting? And how to process the lessons from your past while mapping of course to true fulfillment. Let's get started.

Hey, everybody, I'm here with an internationally recognized award-winning sexologist and best-selling author. She's the creator of the erotic blueprint. You may have recently seen her on Netflix as goop on sex. I'm also grateful to call her a dear dear friend, please welcome Jaya to the show. Thank you for being here with us. It's always a pleasure. Yeah, this is a pleasure. I love that brand. Absolutely. And you're a great reminder of that in my life, and I imagine in many people's lives, which is why this is probably one of the scariest podcasts I could imagine doing. It's just my upbringing where we didn't really talk about sex. It's like, you know, Catholic upbringing. There's a lot of guilt and shame around that stuff. So I was like, I don't know, is this okay? Will my employees hear this? Will my parents hear this? And I'm sure the answer is yes. So I'm just disclaiming that now that I'm very uncomfortable with this idea, and I'm gonna do it anyway.

Miss Jaiya 

Hello, parents. Hello, employees. I promise I don't bite unless you really want me to.

Nik Tarascio 

Sure that yeah, they're gonna love that my parents. Cool. Cool. Stop the podcast right here.

Miss Jaiya 

And that's the beautiful thing. There's a choice to not listen, you know. And I do get TMI. So just a little disclaimer, this is about sex.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, and I very much appreciate that. I just think it's such an important topic. And it's something that has been really important for me recently, as I've, I've really not connected to myself in a lot of ways. And knowing that leaning into this just doing this podcast was for me to say like, I actually shouldn't be ashamed of that aspect of my life, that aspect of me as a man. And so I do have to start with one question, which is, for most people I know, at this point, but how do you describe what a sexologist is?

Miss Jaiya 

Well, one of the things I think that distinguishes my work is that I'm a somatic sexologist, which means it's body based sexologist. And I think I've dedicated my life to this mission of discovering all those erotic radically possible as a sexologist. So the word somatic means body based so I'm not just like a sex therapist would be more mental. As a somatic sexologist, I work in the body. I'm also working with a psycho emotional, psycho spiritual biochemistry of a person. But a sexologist, I believe is somebody who really dedicates their life to the study of what is this thing sex? And how do we do this thing? Sex well and healthfully and with a lot of empowerment, and peeling back the layers of conditioning, shame around pleasure, because pleasure is still a taboo.

Nik Tarascio 

What was the moment where you knew that this was your path?

Miss Jaiya 

Oh, I was very young. I, I can't remember exactly how old I was. But I remember seeing Dr. Ruth on television. And I was like, that's what I want to be when I grow up. I want to be just like Dr. Ruth. And I always joke, you know, just started with all my friends. I wanted to tell them the truth about where babies came from. It wasn't a stork. It wasn't an immaculate conception. Oh, here's the truth about all of this. And I was the kid in the library, like looking up every book on sex that I could find, and trying to discover the truth. I've always been a seeker of the truth. And what is the truth around this thing that we call sex and how do I bring that truth to other people?

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, so as I mean, you You're talking teenager?

Miss Jaiya 

Oh, yeah, even younger. I was like six or seven, as soon as I could read sneaking the books in the library, different section, I lived at the library. Because I couldn't bring them home with me because I also grew up Roman Catholics. Oh, there you

Nik Tarascio 

go. That was gonna be the question is how did you shield yourself from the guilt and the shaming and still continue because I feel like I just would cut myself off, right? It was like the idea of trying to question sex and pleasure. And all that stuff was like, Nope, can't do that. Since there's a voice, there's a God in my head that's like, you're going to hell, if you think about that. How did you overcome that as a seven year old or a six year old?

Miss Jaiya 

Yeah, I don't, I don't know if I necessarily shielded myself. I think that all of that still was present and still affected my life and still affected my sexuality. I just think that the curiosity was stronger. I had an overriding curiosity about this thing and an overriding wanting to know about my relationship with God and wanting to know my own what is my own truth that overrode a lot of the shaming and trauma, you know, religious trauma that can come from some of this messaging. And it's been really interesting, because I also have studied a lot about religion, and what philosophy says and theology is philosophy and theology, and what does it say about sexuality truly, or how much of that messaging really just came from a sex negative point of view?

That was passed down from the powers that be you know, and, and that can be a dangerous thing to say, it can be dangerous to say, you know, hey, the people were wrong, who were in power. It isn't actually what the Bible says, it isn't actually what Scripture says. How are we interpreting those things? You know, even talking about self pleasure and masturbation? You know, I like the word self-pleasure because the word masturbation means to pollute oneself with one hand one's hands.

And so, even the languaging that we have around sexuality is a languaging of shame. The Prudential nerve, which innervates our genitals is Prudential mean, shame. It's the nerve of shame. So we have all of this inherited stuff that actually isn't, isn't quite accurate. You know, nowhere in the Bible doesn't say that self-pleasure is bad or wrong. It's talking about onanism, we have onanism but that's a different interpretation. That's not getting the brother pregnant with the wife pregnant, not the brother, the wife pregnant, of the brother who died, you know, like a, because you were supposed to have babies like that was what that that was about. And then and then you also have to take in the culture of the time and the teachings of the time and, and how all of that got translated and passed down. So it really is an interesting, fascinating wormhole to go down to even just look at, well, what is actually being said, in our spiritual books, and what actually is the truth about sex and what is being taught. And I think that when you look, fundamentally what is being taught is that sex is a sacred act.

And there is a way to have sex where it's not hygienic. A lot of times it's talking about hygiene, like if you're going to do this take a shower afterward. Like it's actually like, so there are things about hygiene, and there are things about the right frame around sexuality, what is the frame of your intention? How are your behaviors in alignment with the divine, and this idea of life, and procreating? And so it's just all like a super fascinating thing to look at. And then what's my own truth within all of what religion does say about sexuality? And then how do I peel back that conditioning?

And so I think to answer your question, to come back to that is the thing that I was constantly doing is looking inward. And not understanding how something that felt so good could be so wrong, and how we could shame something that every single person is here because somebody had sex. And even if we look at that, if we look at like insemination, the sperm, and the egg, there's, you know, the egg is allowing the sperm in that's, we can say that that is sex as well. And we're all a product of sex. So being that we're all a product of sex, there's no shame, if we shame sex, then we're shaming all of humanity. But if we see sex as sacred, and beautiful then humanity becomes a sacred beautiful product, a creation of love, a creation of pleasure. And isn't it more useful to have that frame that we are all a product of pleasure and love and therefore we are love and pleasure, we are the byproduct of that, rather than the byproduct of something Bad, shameful, and dirty?

Nik Tarascio 

Well, I mean, you're touching on stuff. And I was actually thinking about this before we got on like, how much of myself am I willing to share in this capacity? Again? Like all the fears come up, right? But it would I feel like it would not be this wouldn't be art if I wasn't sharing from my heart about some of the things that come up. And I know for me because I was raised in a way of again, everything shame and guilt, masturbation is guilt or going to hell, I remember I had a youth minister that told me that the idea was like, alright, well, then I'm going to learn to embrace shame and guilt to take my power back. And it only actually feels like sex if it feels wrong. Now, if I'm with someone who I love, and we actually are having sex, because we love each other. Now, it feels like that's not the sex I remember from when I was young. That's not the way I was taught sex, I was taught to shame and guilt and regret. And so I wonder, like, how does that show up for people? Have you seen that as a frequent pattern and other people? Or is that relatively unique?

Miss Jaiya 

Absolutely, I think that we all get the message that this is a shameful thing. Unless we had parents who were really progressive and taught us otherwise. But then we still get the message from the culture, we still get the message that there's something wrong from just I think it's just gotten ingrained in us deeply, deeply in a genetic, you know, collective level, it's deeply ingrained in us. And so, I think that there are a lot of people for whom if sex isn't dangerous, if sex doesn't feel taboo, if sex doesn't feel shameful, then it must not be it doesn't have that spark, it must not be good sex, or, you know, and some of that comes to blueprinting, which maybe we'll talk about the erotic blueprinting it has a little to do with a kinky blueprint, which is if it feels taboo, then it's turned on.

But there's a difference between something feeling taboo and something feeling shameful. So if you're feeling shameful, you're feeling Brene Brown talks about this, I am bad, I am dirty. If you're feeling it's taboo, it has a spark to it. And that's different. It's different. Because shame is very destructive. And I'll also add, there's nothing here that I'm saying where I'm like, change, fix or improve that. When I talk about shame being destructive, what I'm, what I'm interested in is what is your relationship with shame that you can say, hey, shame, I hear you, I see you, you're accepted in me as well, you get to come to be part of the pleasure party. And also, you know, maybe the shame isn't serving me anymore. So can I give you a new job? Can I upgrade you to when maybe my behaviors are off, and you can come in and say hey, ding, ding, ding, ding, you know, where it's not I am bad. What's more, maybe this behavior isn't necessarily the healthiest sexual behavior that there is to be.

Nik Tarascio 

I think that's what I'm more related to, is that I think that they were even women I would be attracted to, and I would feel sexual desire. And I didn't want to feel that because again, for me, sexual desire equaled shame. So then resenting that person, like, pushing that person out, because it's like, Get away from me, you're, you're causing me to feel more shame, right? And so I imagine that's kind of what we're talking about where it's it is destructive energy, because instead of being even just to admire someone who I think is beautiful, I couldn't do that I couldn't just be an admiration, it was almost like, No, you're just you existing in my presence makes me uncomfortable.

Miss Jaiya 

And then I don't know how to sit in that discomfort. So instead, I will push away, I will run away, I will do all kinds of interesting behaviors. Because sitting in the discomfort is the last thing that I want to do. And I think we all need to learn it in this culture. And as we're unraveling all of this, how do I sit in the erotic tension? How do I sit in discomfort? Because I think what a lot of people don't realize is that it's unpleasant. It's not pleasure, that discomfort is not pleasure. You know, and we don't recognize that. And so instead of looking to alleviate instead of looking and there's nothing wrong with looking to alleviate I don't want anyone to hear that. But I'm curious. What I'm curious about is how do we sit in discomfort when our attractions are uncomfortable and when our sexual tension is uncomfortable? When it brings up shame? What is it to sit in that discomfort and to talk to it and say what are you here for what are you trying to show me? How can I integrate this and do the work to do the healing work that is required to then either transform that integrate it, or give it an upgrade? Keep accepting it? Nope, there's that discomfort again. Okay, I'm gonna keep learning it instead. I'm gonna get curious instead.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, the In the desired part, like being in the discomfort of desire, that's a question I asked someone else who was on the podcast. And I'm really curious to hear more about how someone besides just acknowledging and noting it noting that discomfort? Is there a specific suggestion or practice someone could do beyond just noticing it? To say like, yes, it's okay. I have this desire, for example, like, to go back to the Bible, right? Like you're not supposed to covet thy neighbor's wife. So if you happen to live next, someone that has a smoking hot wife, that kind of sucks, you're like, I do have a desire for this person, because they're beautiful, whatever it is, but now I feel I'm wrong for having that desire. So I want to stuff that desire down or make myself wrong for that desire. How would you like it if you were working with someone? How do you support them? In not making themselves wrong for that?

Miss Jaiya 

I think the first step is what about that desire is distressing? What's the distress? The distress is I'm because desire in itself is not a problem, right? Its desire creates the world. And so there's this interesting thing of like, okay, there's that belief system to unravel. That desire is bad, in and of itself. And then there's the stuffing of it. And so the first step I would do is okay, well, what's the part of you that has this? And then how do we then integrate that part by seeing what that part actually wants? Some people talk about ifs, I didn't No ifs, but I do something called accelerated evolution, which helps people to then take a part like that and integrate it so that there's no longer an emotional charge around desire. And the way that we do that is we see what is the goal of the desire. So if I were leading you right now, I'd say, Nick, what's the goal of your desire? What is it want?

Nik Tarascio 

Honestly, I think it just likes to be able to be in the fantasy, I think the fantasy is fun. I think it's really fun to play in the pretend of what could be the possibility. Great. So

Miss Jaiya 

once, the possibility of playing in the pretend of the possibility, so then we start to imagine that that has happened. And that's how we start to integrate it. And then a new goal will come and a new goal. And we just keep working until there are no more goals of the desire. And then some interesting things can happen, people can move into expanded states of awareness, or what we call pillow aroma state. To integrate that, back into wholeness, it's like Holotropic work, Stan Grof talks about Holotropic work as bringing that part that's in distress back into wholeness again.

Nik Tarascio 

So you're literally talking about like, again, if I said, I have a desire for a mansion, and blah, blah, blah, right? Well, let's pretend you have a mansion. And you're in that mansion, what's the goal now? And it's like, oh, I want to throw crazy parties and whatever, right? And then if I call it so you throw a crazy party, what's the goal of that party? So you're saying, just keep following that until nothing is falling into those numeric goals.

Miss Jaiya 

But here's the trick, there has to be always the goal is higher. So you have a mansion. Great. Now, what's higher a higher goal than that? A more important goal than that? Oh, inviting all my friends over so I can have a connection? Great. Okay. Now, what's a higher goal than that? That I'm never alone, you know, or something like that. It's a connection, you know, which is your connection with everybody? Great. What's a higher goal than that oneness? Great, what's a higher goal than that? unconditional love for all beings? You know, what's a higher goal than that? Maybe there's nothing higher than that.

Nik Tarascio 

That's interesting. And then in that case, if the person comes to that moment, you're saying, sometimes it will kind of snap them out of the pattern and realize it wasn't necessarily the path to get there.

Miss Jaiya 

That was important, or, like, I'm sure all kinds of realizations, most of it is just that all of its already done. So there's no more charge around it anymore. I see, then you're free. You're just free of charge.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah. Wow, that's big. Yeah. I mean, it's, it is shocking for me to hear that desire in itself shouldn't be uncomfortable. It shouldn't be unpleasurable, to be in desire, or to be in fantasy, or to be in want. And also, I mean, I'm not conditioned that way. So that's also part of what I think we talked about parts work. For me, I'm more familiar with ifs than when you say accelerated evolution. So from a parts perspective, there's another part of me that comes up and says, you're not supposed to want those things like, you're supposed to be more humble, you're supposed to appreciate what you already have by you wanting more, you're just ungrateful. There's a lot of narrative that comes along with that.

Miss Jaiya 

And so yeah, it's like all that narrative, just continuing to integrate it back into wholeness, all that narrative, and watching all that narrative, because you can clear it with several different things. So what would it be the empty that narrative out completely, for that narrative to just be completely understood? And then I think what it often is seeking is to be understood to be seen to be heard. Without someone who can hold a loving presence that isn't trying to change, fix or improve it.

We're not trying to change, fix or improve. And I think that that's what so many people are trying to do, especially around sexuality is I'm going to, I'm going to do the next sex technique. And I'm going to, you know, I'm going to change my shame. And I'm going to fix this. And what if we all just stop changing, fixing, and improving and we're able to be with each other and understand each other. Right there. I mean, I think that right there can make great sex. Because you're seeking to understand not due to another person, I'm gonna give them an orgasm, well, maybe not. Maybe what if you're just listening?

That's the number one technique ever. People always ask me what's a tip or a technique and awareness, learning to be with and listen. And then when you can learn to listen, something magical happens. Because you're not trying to get somebody to an orgasm. You're not trying to get them to feel a certain pleasure. You're not trying to do that yourself. Some doors open up that are, you know when they're directly experienced it experienced, you'll understand what I'm saying?

Nik Tarascio 

What does it really mean to listen, though, in that context, I mean, I understand literally, like if someone was talking, maybe trying to hear what they're saying, but what are other ways that someone can really be in listening?

Miss Jaiya 

Well, if you just put your hand on someone's body, maybe you spend 30 minutes there without moving. And you listen with your hand and not just your ears, you're listening with your sensation. And so is it warm? Is it cool? What's the texture? What happens when the person breathes? What's happening in the rest of their body as you're making that contact with their skin? What's happening in your own body as you're making contact with that skin? Can you then listen with your eyes? Can you see what's happening under your hand? How movement might happen? subtle movements, what's the smallest little thing when I was in massage school, we had to do this exercise where you would put a hair in a Bible because the Bible pages are really thin.

And you would feel the hair through the Bible page. And then when you could feel that really well you do another page, and you'd practice feeling the hair through two pages. And then you just keep adding pages and still being able to feel that hair. And that's listening. That's I'm listening for that underneath all these different layers, because not only are you at the skin layer, but you can start to listen to the fascia layer, you can start to listen to the muscles, you can start to listen to the blood flow, the bone, the nerve, the nervous system, you can start to listen to all of that just through a simple touch. And there's so much information there. So much information that we missed because we're Yeah, going to

Nik Tarascio 

That's beautiful. That's I mean, I'm, I'm inspired by what you're saying. Because it's something that I think, even just in that context, it's a great lesson. But I think in life, it's something that I think many of us like, especially the high achievers running ahead, win, win, win, win everything, get all the awards, just crush life.

Miss Jaiya 

And it's like, if I go 30 seconds, left and circle really, really fast, then maybe I'll also achieve the orgasm goal. Yes, yes. I just know all the right techniques, and I'm going to achieve the thing. And let me tell you, I spent a lot of my life teaching sex techniques and sex techniques. They don't necessarily get you there. What I'm interested in with high performers is how to move from high performance to peak existence.

Nik Tarascio 

That's a big statement.

Miss Jaiya 

From high performance, peak existence, is very different, and believe me, I am a recovering high performer. And I learned about how to live in peak existence. Where I'm not no longer focused achievement happens within peak existence. But I'm no longer focused on the achievements. Because I was running away from something. What was mine from always my form was, you know, I had a very strong thing that I was running in the high performance. And I think it's really interesting for us to stop and go, Okay, this has been my way I've been stuck in action orientation. What happens when I move into experiential orientation? I'm working with a friend of mine on a new podcast, or he's EMALS. And part of what we talk about are these three orientations. Are you oriented toward action, which is a lot of high performance? Were to do doo doo doo, or are you oriented towards circumstance?

If I just do all these things, I'm going to have better circumstances and make more money, I'm going to have a bigger house. I'm going to do You know, I'm going to improve my circumstances of life. And that's what gets even further away from self, the more circumstantial you are, the there's action orientation. And then the one that's closest to self is experiential orientation. And experiential orientation is when you can be in the pleasure without doing anything, you're just being. And you know, I music is a great way to say this, can you listen to an entire song from start to finish and experience it? Not doing the listening but experiencing the music? And that's a big sex difference. Are you in action? Are you just trying to do do do? Are you in a circumstance where you're just trying to get to the orgasm so that the person loves you more? Or are you in experience good sex happens in the experience? Where you are listening and feeling and expressing from self?

Nik Tarascio 

How would someone let you know, for someone who's listening right now, and also for someone who's hosting the podcast, let's say, How would someone find their way to peak experience like right now my goal is to be as authentic as I can and try to make a really good show and on some level, like, also make sure that I'm, you know, I'm worthy of your time, right? There's like all these other things that are going on in my head and not embarrass myself publicly. Blah blah blah, blah, blah, how would I shift? Or how would a listener shift into peak experience right now?

Miss Jaiya 

Okay, let's start with just a breath. Can you be with one breath, and drop in? To yourself right now? Who's the one who's sitting here right now on this interview?

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, yeah, I can do that. Hi. Yeah, that's a beautiful and easy way. Yeah. And again, like, go ahead, I was gonna say, I imagine a lot of people that are listening to podcasts, if they relate to what I do, as a high achiever, I'm like, if I have a moment where I also have open ear channel, let me shove more information in there. So I could really make this moment an extra account. Right. So if someone is listening to this, I imagine, especially on this topic, you know, they're probably thinking, there's some goal, they're here to achieve something to take something away. But as a listener to something like content or learning or TED talks, whatever that thing is, how can someone be more experiential in the intake of information in the process of learning?

Miss Jaiya 

Making learning more experiential? That's a really good, good, good question. So I think that there's a natural curiosity for all of us who love to take a lot of content in. And one of the things that's important is to not let it just be more information or taking in, but how are you integrating that information by doing something somatic with it? So moving your body in a certain way, you know, as you're learning, maybe there's a physiology physiological thing that you're doing? Can you go out and implement it right away? Can you teach it to another person right away?

So you're expressing it, you've taken it in you're, you're absorbing it, but then expressing it can be a way of really integrating content? Can you listen to music and dance while you're listening to podcasts at the same time, you know, that may feel like a little too much stuff, but I actually really enjoy having music on while I'm listening to something while I'm moving my body all at the same time because it feels like it's getting more into an experience of the content. And it's the difference between you know, listening to a podcast on a travel podcast on destination location, let's say India, and going to India. So as you're learning, how can you go to India? How can you what are how you are going to enjoy it? I don't know. And then also sometimes I self-pleasure while I'm listening to things I'm taking in content, you know, that brings it way into my body. Why not? I mean, why not make it more pleasurable?

Nik Tarascio 

Orgasmic?

Miss Jaiya 

Make learning orgasmic?

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, I can see that. So it's a great E-learning platform. Amazing, I'm sure someone will be inspired to build that for us. I'd love to pivot a little bit into the erotic blueprint. Again, I mean, I think I've heard in I don't know if it's because I'm in New York and everyone talks about but everyone talks love languages. They're talking like oh yeah when you're dating someone if you know the right love language showed up, and all the dating apps when I was on them. I'm really curious to hear more about the erotic bloop rent, and how people might be able to lean into that for themselves to maybe understand more about how they are relating to their partner or partners.

Miss Jaiya 

So there are five erotic blueprints, and I'll just go through them really quickly. So everyone has a little bit of a common language.

So the energetic and that's somebody who's turned on by anticipation space T's longing yearning. Their superpower is that they can have orgasms without even touching. And the shadow side of the energy is that they're hypersensitive so they can short-circuit get overwhelmed, flooded very easily if spaces collapse too quickly.

The sensual is someone who is turned on by all of their senses being ignited by smell, taste, the hot bath, the roses, the romantic gestures, superpowers that they can have orgasms anywhere on their body, non-genital orgasms, orgasms from eating something where you know, it's more about the beauty of the experience that's bringing the orgasmic delight. And the shadow side is getting stuck in their heads a really hard time. Feeling the pleasure in their body because they're so distracted by all of the mental mind chatter.

The sexual is someone who started out by what we think of as sex in our culture, so penetration, nudity, orgasms, getting to that end goal, the achievement of sex, and the superpower are that sex is fun, it's enjoyable, it's easy. It it's not simple. I think a lot of people think sexualities are very simple. I'll take that back. It's not lacking depth, but it does have a simplicity to it. It's not lacking depth but it has a simplicity to it. And then the shadow side of the sexual is focused on the goal focus on the achievement missing the journey missing out on the experience of it and also just the relieving of the sexual tension that actually is just comfort so the pleasure comes when the orgasm comes because it's relieving that tension.

And then the kinky and the kinky is someone who's turned up with a taboo of sex so whatever is taboo for you and that could be psychological taboo powerplay, different dynamics. It could be a sensation, play rope, impact play these kinds of things The superpower of the kinky is also similar to the energetic where they can have orgasms from going into expanded states of consciousness. And then with and also I'll also say superpowers creativity, unlimited creativity. And then the shadow side of the kinky a shame, a lot of depth of shame. Why am I turned on by this taboo thing? Is it okay? I don't know. You know, those kinds of thoughts are often running through and the shame can often be distressing for someone in the kinky blueprint.

And then the shapeshifter and the shapeshifter is someone who's turned up by all of it, everything that I just said they love it. Their superpower is that they can become a really amazing lover because they can shapeshift to please anybody in any blueprint, and the shapeshifter shadow is that they shapeshift all over the place. And they're really starving because they're not getting all of the blueprints, bed, their shape-shifting often to please other people. And they can also have the shadow of all the other Blueprints.

So those are the five blueprints, and then how they are in a relationship really, I mean, I think the first step is knowing who you are. So when you know who you are similar to the love languages, when you know who you are, you can really own yourself, there's less shame in Oh, I'm one of those energetics, who I thought I was always just really weird, or I thought I was, you know, not into sex. When really I was just energetic, and I needed a lot of space. And all my turn-on orgasm is actually not being touched. I'm not so weird. That's actually a blueprint.

There are lots of people who are energetically wired. And so I think that there's a nice relaxation and understanding of ourselves once we know what our Blueprint is. And then we can really own it about others. Like here's who I am, who are you, I'm owning who I am, without shame. And I'm curious about who you are, and how do we play together? And there's all a whole bunch of I don't really believe in sexual incompatibility, I only believe in unwillingness in relationship. So when it comes to compatibility, I think it's like any skill, you just learn it. You just learn the language. Like if your partner speaks French and you speak American English, you're gonna learn French because you love them.

They're gonna learn English because they love you. And it's not about we're not compatible. It's just about now I just need to learn but if I'm unwilling to learn, then there's an incompatibility if I'm unwilling to learn that that's really what it comes down to. So owning and then the last one is living the blueprint. So how are you living it and this comes back to that experiential realm that I was talking about, you know, live like you know who you are. And that takes courage. How do you implement that into all of your life to really Live from who you truly are?

Nik Tarascio 

I'm wondering with the people that you've worked with, how often do you find that people even in long-term relationships have never dared to express either who they are or what they want to their partner?

Miss Jaiya 

Yeah, 100%. I mean, that's a lot of what I work with. And I'll see people who've been in a relationship for 40 years, and they've never said what their sexual desires are. They've never had a conversation about sex. And it's interesting because I think a lot of people when they don't talk about sex, think they're on different pages, and then I'll have them go through or what is it that you really desire, and we get to start to talk about it. And in that, they find out that there's actually more overlap and what they do desire than not. And that's always a really lovely, lovely moment. But yeah, there are a lot of people who do not ever have a conversation about sex. And part of that comes from the sexes, shameful.

It's not supposed something we're supposed to talk about. Because we all got a sex education. People told me that I didn't get any sex education, like No, you did get sex education, your sex education was don't talk about it, your sex education was this is wrong. Your sex education is something that should stay hidden. And now we're gonna get a different sex education. But all of us got a sex education, whatever message you've gotten from parents culture, or religion, has been your porn has been your sex education. And the question now is, now you're an adult in your choice over what your education is.

So how about getting a different education around your sexuality? What would that look like for you to start to educate yourself in a different way, where sex isn't so hidden and sexist talked about, and sometimes that happens in community, you know, having a good community that is sex-positive, or having a mentor or a coach or someone that you can start to unravel the shame or the hiddenness around talking about this.

Nik Tarascio 

When it comes to sexual trauma, which we'll step into for a second, you know, I imagine that there are people who are afraid to express things to their partner, because they just don't want to deal with the shame. But I also imagine when you start to step into the level of trauma, that there are people that don't even know within themselves, right? So it's, you know, how do you help someone access something that they won't, they won't even want to see within themselves, or they've cut off just to manage their way through life?

Miss Jaiya 

Very slowly and very gently. You know, I think that I think that trauma can be really tricky. You know, and I'm not a trauma therapist, but I am very trauma-informed. And I work with a lot of trauma because you can't work in sexuality without working with trauma. And there really is going at a person's pace of their own nervous system, making sure they're working with a trauma therapist and hand in hand with me. And because I'm more somatic and body-based, I'm interested in how the trauma is in their body, how has the trauma affected the body? How where's the trauma stored in the body? And how do we release it on all layers?

And so I, when I'm working, I work very much in different layers of it. So there's the physical, this realm layer of it, and then there's the emotional layer of it. And then there's the transpersonal layer of it, which gets into collective trauma and archetypal trauma. You know, like, for example, let's say a woman who feels like, she can't speak up about her sexuality at all. And then that goes into the trans personal trauma, the collective trauma of the feminine, and how women have been persecuted for being sexually open or being open about who they are. And so then that goes into more of the transpersonal or collective aspect. And then there's the deepest layer of truth around it all. And once we get to the truth, it's usually when the trauma clears from the body. Because the within the truth, and when somebody sees that understanding, and they can get to that content, through all those layers, then something beautiful usually happens for them where that starts to clear up.

Nik Tarascio 

But yeah, that's pretty amazing to witness.

Miss Jaiya 

It is quite extraordinary to just hold space for somebody through that. And it's really them doing the work, I'm just holding presence comes back to that listening, I'm listening and holding presence with someone while they have a safe space to actually express how that trauma is in their body.

Nik Tarascio 

So if we had to pull all these threads to one, which is you know, again, the podcast is really about how people truly find fulfillment? And I can't think of a more important question than connecting to the body connecting to the self being within your own pleasure being in your own experience. How much is that showing up in the conversations you're having with people or do they even know it's a lack of fulfillment? Like I'm just wondering how that topic shows up in this work?

Miss Jaiya 

It does. It shows up a lot. It shows up a lot. And there's a lack of fun. There's a lack of fulfillment, and there's a lack of creativity in relationships. And I think this is a fundamental question though, not just in sexuality, but also in the world right now, we do not know how to practice satiation. And we're always looking for more the next better orgasm, the next big, you know, a toy that's going to get me the higher pleasure. And then we become experienced chasers, as opposed to being in deep fulfillment. And I think that this is very true for high performers, where we think the next thing is going to bring us fulfillment, and we chase experiences or the new achievement, and that that's going to bring us the fulfillment, or the satisfaction of the satiation.

And this again, I'm going to go back to those three orientations, the circumstantial realm, like, Oh, if I just make my circumstances better, then I'll feel fulfilled. And I definitely got trapped in that one, you know, and then I hit all my boxes, I checked every box, I, my business was over seven figures, you know, I had the house, I had the kid, I had the partner, I had all the things I ever wanted in my life. And I still felt unfulfilled. And so then I went, Oh, gosh, something must be wrong in my brain. So I went, had my brain scan, and started doing all these things, because like, why do I still not feel fulfilled? Why am I not satisfied when I have everything society told me I should ever want, I've managed to meet all my goals, met all my goals. And I still feel unfulfilled.

And it's because it's not the answer is not in the circumstantial realm. And the same thing to your sex life, the next orgasm is not going to be the thing. The next partner who you know, you have mind-blowing sex with is not going to necessarily be the thing, the next x technique is the next circumstantial thing, is not it. And the same thing for action, you know, I thought, Oh, if I just work harder, you know, if I just do more, then maybe I'll feel fulfilled. And then there'll be a day when I can rest, maybe you relate to that some of you who are listening, like, Oh, finally rust, if I just do enough, you know, and that didn't, I didn't feel fulfillment from that either.

And then there came or, or, you know, even philanthropy, you know, like, Oh, if I just helped more people, if I just do more, and I contribute more, and I have a mission-driven business, that's going to be the thing, that's the final answer of my satisfaction and fulfillment. The only place that I feel true fulfillment is being in the moment in the experiential orientation. And that is, that is self, the closer I am too self, the more fulfillment I feel because it doesn't matter what the external circumstances are. And it doesn't matter what I'm doing, there is a relaxation into being and that's when I talk about peak experience. That is the ultimate orgasm. The ultimate orgasm is the knowledge of yourself. That, then sex is just a byproduct of a celebration of your expression. Sex is a tool for your own awakening and the self. Not a thing that we're using to chase a circumstance or experience or a thing that we're doing sex is an experiential tool that brings you closer to the ultimate orgasm.

Nik Tarascio 

I was for a second there, I was trying to put the pieces together in my head. I'm like, I think what I hear is, instead of experience chasing just to really be in the one you're already in, to fully be in the experience. That's a very succinct way to put it. Yeah. Oh, God, again, my brain is a little engineering-type thing. Got it? That's good.

Miss Jaiya 

I love that though. Be with the experience that you're in. Right here with yourself? Yeah. And when you're with the other half making love, same thing. It's in that experience, not in the next moment of what's going to happen. But be in the feeling of your skin together. Your breath on each other's bodies, the deliciousness of weights and pressure and smell, and if there's music playing the deliciousness of your love in that moment.

Nik Tarascio 

Well, this brings up for me one of the single most important things I ever think you told me, I mean, you've told me a lot of really important things. So it's probably not fair to say that it's one of the 1000s of important things you've really told me that have affected my life. But you use the words resolving discomfort. And when you said that, to me, I had a bit of a meltdown when I realized my entire life. Not only do I feel shame for the things I want to do, but I feel as much shame for the fact that I really don't enjoy anything. When I play it all back and like I've done so much cool shit I've been chasing achieving things and actually got those things and realized, well, this didn't make it works. And I feel shame that I don't feel fulfillment for the thing I've been fighting for and disconnecting from people in my life for and spending money on and doing all these things. And like my entire life has just been a series of resolving discomfort, I've not really experienced pleasure. And I'd love for you to talk more about that part because I, I hope other Well, I hope other people don't relate to it. But I imagine that many people do to find out like, this is why like, I just, I'm not really that happy in my life. I am like gloating that my life moving forward in the bigger picture is really great. But moment to moment, I don't feel deep fulfillment in my life.

Miss Jaiya 

Yeah, speaking to that, I think that there's, I think people don't realize they're even in discomfort for a lot of people until they really stop. Or they hit all their goals. And then it still doesn't feel fulfilling. It kind of sounds like you were at that place where I was like, I checked all the boxes. And then you're like, oh, it's kind of like a rock bottom.

Nik Tarascio 

You know, really I thought of going to a friend's house, someone invited me over. And I was like, You know what, I don't even like hanging out with that person. Like, I don't even know why I go there. And it was like, oh, because I feel the discomfort of I'm not being a good friend if I don't. And so I go to resolve the discomfort of my own identity and relationship to the right. And I'm like, that's crazy. Like all these things that I've done that I thought I'm being so charitable, and I'm being so generous, and I'm being a good person. In reality, it just made me miserable.

Miss Jaiya 

Right? I'm just resolving it. And so I think that this is an important thing for people to think about. Are you? It's just a question with anything? Are you just resolving discomfort? Or are you truly in pleasure? And to get real with yourself? Does it bring you pleasure, I kind of have a thing of like, and I know this can sound kind of hard for people, but I do what only brings me pleasure. And if I am going to step into something that is discomfort, or I'm resolving discomfort, I'm doing it consciously, not unconsciously, like, Okay, I don't really love doing this thing, but I'm gonna say yes to it. Because maybe I'm resolving discomfort, or I'm just going to say yes to it because it's what must be done right now. And that's okay. But I'm, I know that I'm making the conscious choice to do that. And then I asked myself, Okay, well, how can I make it pleasurable? If I'm gonna make the conscious choice to step into this thing? Then how can I, how can I make that pleasurable, but I think it's important just step one is awareness. And then once you have that awareness, you can be at more choice, about more conscious choice about what you're doing.

Nik Tarascio 

You know, I can see that in a lot of things I do, I think about that, even in the context of events or things that I'm obligated to go to. You know, it's a lot of times, if someone's suggesting a certain restaurant, they want to go to him, like, I don't really feel like arguing for the fact that that's not where I want to eat, so I'll tolerate it. But I could see something as simple as that as saying, like, I'd actually rather be in the discomfort of having to argue over the food or, you know, negotiate the food location, but at least that I'm enjoying the food I'm eating, I'm having the pleasure of the food.

Miss Jaiya 

Or, you say to yourself, okay, I'm going to the discomfort of negotiation. I'm going to override, you know, I'm going to override so that I'm just going to tolerate eating the food that I don't want to like, eat. But I made that choice. Yeah. And that's, that's a big difference of okay, I made that choice, because it's your night to choose, and I don't really love that food. But how can I make it most pleasurable? Yeah, and in our case, Judy, can I enjoy that shitty? Yeah. I love this gross food. It's so good. You know?

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, what I like about that, too, is then it breaks the lie for myself, which is, I think that's why it's uncomfortable. Cuz I'm like, I know, I'm lying to myself by saying I'm happy here. Right? I'd rather just be honest, and say, Actually, this is uncomfortable. This is not something I want to be doing. But I do it because I love this person. And now I don't have to resent them for it. Because ultimately, I resent you because you make me lie to myself.

Miss Jaiya 

All right. So just stop lying to yourself. Yeah, get authentic. And that's where, you know, there's authentic pleasure. And there's resolving discomfort.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah. I'm hoping to call it a lot more authentic pleasure and really find the things that make me happy. And I hope everyone who's listening does that too. And I'm really curious about someone who is living in your pleasure. It sounds like I mean, from what we've talked about 40 Since you truly love your life, which is so rare for me to hear. I hear a lot of people say those words because it's like the PR campaign of their life. But I think like you're someone when I spend time with I actually found this very intimidating at first because when we started to get to know each other being around someone who's so rooted in themselves. And being someone that was a validation seeker. It just was not compatible. I was like this. You don't care what I do, and not in a bad way. Like you're like, oh, no, like, be you don't be you like you could do that. But it doesn't affect where I'm at, I'm still having a good time. That was really interesting for me because I would use a lot of that dynamic and how I'd relate to people like, I'm going to do this so I can make you love me, or I'm going to do this. So you'd like me more? I think I'm cool. And so being someone who's in this space of truly loving your life, truly feeling fulfilled being in service of others? What do you dream about when you wake up? Like what is your dream beyond?

Miss Jaiya 

I dream for everyone to experience what I'm experiencing. I feel like everything that I do is an invitation to my world. Come experience what it's like here because it's so yummy. And so I have this, I guess I have a desire for people to wake up to their true authentic selves. And I dream of a world where we all are awake to that. And I dream of a world where sexuality is seen as the tool that it is, instead of recreational. It is recreational for us. And I dream, I dream of having enough resources to just unlimitedly unlimited Lee create from experience. For all people that we all just have, like the abundance of resources that we can create whatever it is, we don't have to worry about the circumstantial realm anymore.

Nik Tarascio 

Is that a little bit like the question, if you had infinite money, what would you do? And then people just doing more of that thing?

Miss Jaiya 

Yes. If you didn't have to worry about money, what would you be creating in the world? Because I think that some really brilliant people would be creating some really brilliant things if they didn't have to worry about financial stability.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, I have a sense of that myself. I think a lot about that. But for you, it's I mean, I guess on some level, do you feel like you're kind of there as it is? Is there anything that you feel you personally need to be able to create the things that you really want to create?

Miss Jaiya 

I feel that it's a really good question. I had a moment yesterday, and I'll share just a story to answer it. I had a moment yesterday with my coach because I think it's important that we all work with coaches. And I had a moment where I was working on this working on the energy of pride. And again, this comes just like sexuality, there are things where we're taught like pride is one of the seven deadly sins. And I kept having these little moments of like, I'm proud of myself that I do this little pat on the back. And I really felt pride for the first time, like, proud of myself. And it was like, I did it. Like I have everything I ever wanted. Plus, I'm fulfilled. Because I'm solid in myself. And I was just weeping at this moment of feeling like I have everything, everything. There's nothing that I want in terms of the part of what we were going through he was just challenging me if I lost your house. If you lost all if I lost all of the circumstantial things, could I maintain the state that I'm in? And the truth that I got to was I mean, no matter where I am? I mean, not that I want that challenge, my preference is to have the beautiful circumstantial things that I have. And I me, and, of course, could I use utilize more resources at the moment meanness that I am to create more to help more people? Of course, of course, I'd love to experience that and the truth when I get to the truth, though, and who I am. The truth is that I am that abundance, and I generate that abundance. And so I do already have all the resources. And of course, I could always use more.

Nik Tarascio 

Well, I hope a lot more is coming soon. We'll all appreciate you. Keep having orgasms and manifest them. Yeah, it's not like sex magic.

Miss Jaiya 

Yeah, like manifesting. So the way that I see sex magic is that I'm fueling myself and keeping myself really resourced. And because I'm so resource, it's more easy for me to manifest. I'm utilizing sexual energy like fuel to manifest things in the world. And I'm focused Sing on it while I'm in pleasure. I'm visualizing myself in whatever it is that I'm creating or manifesting, I did a project that was every day I had an orgasm while I was manifesting something. And during that time, I quadrupled my income. So it was really a huge turning point in my career, actually, every morning was just like me visualizing the school of a certain income and actually quadrupling it.

Nik Tarascio 

I think we just figured out the show title, which is masturbating your way to success?

Miss Jaiya 

For those high to high achievers, who want something to do?

Nik Tarascio 

That's right, for extra income through frequent observation.

Miss Jaiya 

But did it bring me happiness and fulfillment? That's the question, you know, again, like I Yeah, quadrupled my income and a lot of other things. And so, if I had really been asking the question of what brings me fulfillment, I think that this is a great question. You know, what truly brings us satisfaction? Can I be in the practice of satisfaction? What does that truly look like? And to me, that is an orgasmic experiential experience? You know, it's a direct experience of truth. That fulfillment?

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah. Oh, this is, this has been amazing. It was not as scary as I thought it would be. Yeah, I actually just I don't know, I'm just grateful you exist. It's like the stuff you do the things you talk about the way you affect people. Seeing you show up in a room, like when you know, we were hanging out at Summit, just the way you show up in a room, and it gives people permission to truly be themselves. I'm just I'm so grateful, to know you and to witness that up close.

Miss Jaiya 

Thank you. Yeah, I mean, we can talk about all kinds of juicy, sexy things. I'm talking really high level and essentially, like the end game goal, the end game goal, you talked a little bit about that need for validation. And something that I wanted to say there was part of why I don't, I don't play that game is because I'm just an unconditional love for everyone. And when you're an unconditional love for people, they can do whatever they're doing. There's no like, they don't they, there's no, there's nothing that they can do be or have that's going to change my viewpoint of them.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, and think I think that's what it is, for me is I've thought a lot about the idea of mirrors in our life, and how so few of us can truly turn the light on the mirror and be a real representation of who's standing in front of us so they could see themselves. And I remember in the middle of one of our conversations, as I was talking and justifying myself, you just stared at me. One of the worst moments of my life, to be honest is just beaming yourself. Yeah, it was so uncomfortable. Because it really was just like, I see you look at yourself, I see you look at yourself, do your racket. Yeah, I see your game. And it was actually probably one of the moments I felt most naked in my life I felt most seen. There was no shield, I could hide behind no matter what I did, you had X-ray vision. And it was the most loving way anyone's ever been the most confrontational. It was really, really special to watch that. So I aspire in a lot of ways to think more of how can I be in those moments where I really want to show up and love for someone instead of browbeating them into being what I think they're supposed to be because I somehow know what they're supposed to be trying to

Miss Jaiya 

change, fix, or improve them. Because we all love to do that in our relationships.

Nik Tarascio 

Yes. So what a turn nothing more than a turn-off and being like, Hey, let me tell you all the ways you can be different and better. So yeah, it's just I see how special and how rare that is. And I think the fact that you're helping people understand how to do that more, allowing themselves to have pleasure allowing them to be in support of others through unconditional love. Again, truly a great gift and I can't highly recommend it enough if you're moved by the things that Jaya said there's a ton of stuff that she has out there, and please do go check it out and just go down this road of you again sex love, self-expression, you know being equanimity is I think that's the word having equanimity however, you're supposed to actually say it because I just think that's what I've seen in you is, no matter what crazy shit I've ever told you before, you always kind of seem to find your way back to equanimity. Thank you. I thought you were gonna pause for a while and make me feel very uncomfortable again. Let me sit in the discomfort of myself but now thank you for breaking the tension and again I'm just excited to also watch your journey and you know as we kind of bring the show to a close definitely mark your calendars for December 15 2023 Jaiya's new book is coming out. I hope there's a book release party. I don't care where it is I'll go.

Miss Jaiya 

Let's do one in New York. Your move.

Nik Tarascio 

Let's do it. I'm they're there. That would be really lovely. And also, if you're curious about the sexual blueprint, which, again, it's just such, an amazing framework, you could check out and take the quiz on the erotic breakthrough, which we'll put all this stuff in our show notes. So you could check that out? And is there anything else you want to say as a closing thought to all of our slightly uncomfortable family members of mine, possibly slightly uncomfortable employees, but other people that are really moved by all of this,

Miss Jaiya 

I will give you a little homework, which is just for the rest of the day, just ask How could this be more pleasurable? And then shift things? You know, if it's just the way you're sitting, if it's rubbing your thighs together if it's taking a deeper breath, but how could you make this moment right here right now even more pleasurable? Just keep asking yourself that question for the rest of the day and see what happens.

Nik Tarascio 

Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for the time and I hope everyone really enjoyed this one. Thank you for listening to the dream beyond. I hope that you received whatever message or inspiration you were meant to get from today's episode. I had a great time recording it for you. If you love the show, please take 30 seconds to subscribe rate, and review it. That really helps get the word out. And if you want to connect with me, you can find me at

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[the-dream-beyond]

Episode 13: Selfishness, Judgement, and Desire with Christine Meyer

Christine Meyer 

Whenever you feel bad, you gotta know you've got to know that you are bumping into a limiting belief of some kind.

Nik Tarascio 

Today's topic is going to be a big one, we're talking about selfishness, judgment, limiting beliefs that hold us back from having what we want. And just the idea that we will only get as much or go as far as we allow ourselves to go. So for those you that are on a journey of growth and expansion, I hope this gives you permission to go way bigger way faster. Welcome to the dream beyond. I'm your host, Nik Tarascio. I'm a CEO musician, an overall seeker of Truth, inspiration and simply put, how to live the most fulfilling life possible. Growing up surrounded by extremely wealthy and successful people gave me unique and unfiltered perspectives of those who have seemingly made it through on the dream beyond we're letting you in on what it really takes to achieve your dreams. What happens when it turns out your destination isn't the promised land you are expecting? How to process the lessons from your past while mapping of course to true fulfillment. Let's get started. Hey, guys, how you doing? I'm here with executive life coach and author of keep it simple. Smarty Pants stop overthinking start aligning live happy. Her clients include many incredibly recognizable names and just thought leaders entrepreneurs from all over the world. She's a sought after podcast guest and founding member, regular contributor to the Forbes coaches Council. Please welcome my friend Christine Meyer, thank you for being here with us today.

Christine Meyer 

Hey, Nick, thank you for having me and taking me up on my, my invitation to be on your podcast.

Nik Tarascio 

Absolutely. Absolutely. No, it's It's, it's been a long time coming. I think. For context, Christina and I met in Sedona, Arizona at a really fun retreat with our friend Andrea Lake. She had hosted us out there and I think we really connected over was whoopee cushions in in the aisle of

Christine Meyer 

CVS or? Yes, we totally we totally bonded on on. I think that thing was called a flop. So we were flopping in the aisles of CVS. That's right. And I remember the look you had when you when you saw me playing with it. You were somewhat shocked. But so delighted. Yes, there was there was another, someone in the world who would actually play with you in those ways.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, I mean, I think in some ways, in many ways, that's what the the podcast for me is like, let's not take ourselves too seriously. Like we talked about big ideas. We talk about going and doing all this meaningful stuff in the world. But then I think sometimes people just forget that it's also supposed to be fun, right? It's also supposed to be enjoyment. And it's all a big comedy anyway.

Christine Meyer 

It's all one big sitcom. And if you can, I do my best to see my life that way. Even in those moments when there's plenty of stuff going on that that isn't particularly fun, quote, unquote. It's like, How can I find the fun in it. And I do think that for those of us who want to achieve, and feel and live into our highest potential, do and be all that we can, it is a fine line, truly, to, to not take that too seriously, to continue to introduce FUN into your life and to make life fun. Because if you're not having fun, if you're not enjoying it, if you're not feeling good your way to what you want. What's the point?

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, yeah, you're kind of hitting on. Really the, you know, the heart of the show is around fulfillment. And I think that there's a lot of people including myself that have been on that treadmill of doing more building more to I don't know what and right like just always doing more in hopes that maybe someday I'll feel whatever feeling I was chasing. So that's really kind of the heart of what the show is is, is how do we find that fulfillment? I know because of the conversations you have and the kinds of people you support. I'm sure you have a lot to say about it. But first, because I think you and I always turn we always go to these big ideas. I always end up liking these really fun, dynamic conversations about really cool ideas. I'm curious to hear more about your origins and as a teenager as a kid like what was that early dream for you? What was the thing that you felt pulled to what was fun for you?

Christine Meyer 

And well, I really wanted to be a vet. And I really wanted to be a racecar driver. And I always really liked helping people. So so that was truly the big pull for me now racecar driver doesn't fall into that but that was just the adventures that the part that I would love to experience. So the poll was was always because I cared very deeply about how other people felt before I cared very deeply about how I felt.

Nik Tarascio 

Oh, that's interesting. So Well, first, I have to ask, Do you have pets?

Christine Meyer 

I said that on purpose. What's that?

Nik Tarascio 

Do you have pets?

Christine Meyer 

I have two amazing dogs. I call them my boys BO Y, Z. And I just, I just, I don't know. They're just they've got my heart. I just love my boys.

Nik Tarascio 

Fantastic. So So you've gone down the path of you were drawn to animals, you have some animals now? Do you have speeding tickets?

Christine Meyer 

No, I do not.

Nik Tarascio 

I actually racecar racecar driver thing did not materialize

Christine Meyer 

doesn't mean I don't dry fast. Oh, I just, I just know where the cops are

Nik Tarascio 

even better, even better.

Christine Meyer 

I can feel them before them before I spot them. Yes, I get those impulses. I'm just gonna slow down a little bit here. Just like this morning, that happened this morning. Just slow down a bit here. And then shortly after a cop pulled up behind me on the highway.

Nik Tarascio 

Fantastic. So the third thing you said that again, I really you know, this idea of helping people before you help yourself? How did that show up in the earlier parts of your life, when you may have not understood that that's what was going on.

Christine Meyer 

That showed up in my life. In terms of putting myself second, I sort of overrode how I felt to help someone else feel better. I overrode what I wanted. In many cases, before I chose what I wanted. And I think society somewhat trains us like that we observe people responding to us. And so I wanted you to feel good. And so I would do things that would, you know, help you out in those ways. And I think we have to reverse that. I think we have to be selfish, we have to care about how we feel first, so that we can help other people so that we can be a value to other people. And so I do make how I feel a priority. And then I go out into the world, I make how I feel a priority. And then I have conversations. Because if I want to be a value, not only to myself and and be satisfied with who I am and enjoy my life and feel joyful and happy, then I have to attend to how I feel, make that a priority. And then when I go out into the world, I can be a value to others. I can help others I can, even if I don't say a word.

We're supposed to have silence there, right? We are. Yeah.

Nik Tarascio 

It makes me very uncomfortable. When there's long silence, especially on a podcast, we were like did the radio break.

Christine Meyer 

The radio did not break, the radio did not break. And I liked that you left the pause there. Because pauses are really good pauses are good for to sort of take it all in pauses are good to sort of in that moment, feel where you are. And take a pause, take a pause. We don't have to fill all of the spaces and there again,

Nik Tarascio 

yeah, there we go. All right, good. We're pushing boundaries for me right now.

Christine Meyer  

We are no I get that we want to fill the spaces when we're doing a podcast. But but you know, in your life, if people do get uncomfortable with silence, I love silence. I love silence. When when I'm in a room with other people. I love silence. I love engaging. I love having conversations. Yes. And silence is so golden as well. It's like when you're when you're silently and I feeling you, you and I have many of these conversations that include those pauses in those vibrational communications. You see, we're much more interpreters of of energy than we give ourselves credit for. And so when those silences happen, if you can just sort of melt into it, and just feel your way through it, and then pick up the conversation.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, I mean, talking to you is always fun for me, because it's a dance. And I've noticed that I really struggle with the one sided conversation. You know, I really struggle when it's someone either requires me to carry the whole thing, or someone leaves no space for me to be in the dance. And I just I appreciate again, like you do leave space for others. And so there's something really beautiful about that. And so I want to go back to, you know, this prior version of you this earlier version of you that, you know, put your needs or wants second. And now you've come to this place of saying I'm actually going to take care of myself first. And I believe that from that space, I mean, again, I'm an aviation right so we talked about the oxygen mask you put your own on you secure your own before you help anybody else. I'm really interested in knowing more about is there a particular story in your life? That was the like, Aha breakthrough for you where you're like, I just can't do this to myself anymore. It's actually not in service of other and it's not in service of self. What was it more of a gradual process for you?

Christine Meyer 

I think it was a combination of many experiences, I don't think that there was one aha moment, there was one that sort of tipped the scale for me. But it but it's not only one event, I think it's a lifetime of events, a lifetime of experiences a lifetime of, of collecting data, and, and making choices and decisions and recognizing that perhaps I'd gone too far off on the other scale, or realize that my desire was now stronger. To make myself important. When not ask anyone not ask anyone else, to make me important. And that's something I want to clear here make clear is that the choice was to, I'm going to value myself, I'm going to make myself important. And I'm not going to ask one other person in the world to do that for me.

Nik Tarascio 

Would you tell us about that? That particular tipping point experience?

Christine Meyer 

Yeah, I guess I remember standing. I had been married for quite a while at this time to a lovely man, nothing ever, I would never say anything bad about him. He, we still speak to this day. And we had the picture perfect life, we had the life where you have the things and the people around you and all of those things. And yet, I found that I wanted something different. I wanted to discover who I was. And I wanted to discover even more about finding true happiness without all of the stuff. And and there had been a deep desire in me from the time that I was small to understand energy to understand the universe to understand my place in the universe to understand why I'm here who I am, what this is all about. And so there was a moment there, where I thought this, this is the beginning. This is the beginning for me of truly understanding that. And, and so I ended up eventually following inspiration, love, I loved myself into that relationship and loved my way in. And I also loved my way out of that relationship. Because I said yes to me, and it was not against him. It was yes to me.

Nik Tarascio 

That's beautiful. And I wonder, as you say that, putting oneself first and talking about loving your way out of a relationship? How do you manage the I don't know if it's a cultural thing, or I don't know, if it's just people around us that will say you're being selfish? How dare you put yourself first, right? Because a lot of us don't allow that narrative. Even when you say it, it's like, there's a little part of me that's like, as the way I grew up, it wouldn't be okay to say that, like, Oh, guys, I'm gonna put myself first and then everyone comes second, when I put myself first I do want to be in service of others. But it's there seems to be this, this negative sense of putting yourself first, how did you navigate that? And how do you still hold that space of like, it is actually the most loving thing to put myself first.

Christine Meyer 

And I love that. So So Well, again, when people are asking you to put them first what are they doing?

That's actually quite selfish sounding.

Christine Meyer 

Right. And so if we could all we won't all find agreement in this. But if we could all find agreement that we are born selfish, we are selfishly wired, you can only think through self feel through self and perceive through self, and you are the creator of your reality. No one else creates for you. No one feels for you. No one thinks for you know, and proceeds for you, you can walk a mile in somebody else's shoes, but at the end of the day, there's still somebody else's shoes. So how do I live that? I do my best to? Yeah, of course, I'll hold someone responsible for how I feel temporarily I'm I'm human. But underlying that is the true knowing that how I feel is about me, how I feel is how I'm perceiving you. How I feel is how I'm perceiving what you're perceiving about me. It has nothing to do with you. And so I do practice selfishness and, and not because not only because I want to be in service to others, because then that's another that's another little attachment. It's like I'll do it for me just as long as it's benefiting others. I want to stand proudly in my selfishness. And what that does is it makes me responsible if you will get I get to take the credit for Mike reactions, I get to take the credit for how I feel, I get to take the credit for what the relationships are around me. And so I encourage everyone to be selfish, I encourage everyone to reconsider the idea that selfish is bad. Because if you're not being selfish enough to feel good, then you're going to blame someone else for how you feel. Or you're going to think that they need to do something, be something different, do something different, so that you can feel better, and that's powerless. So being selfish is empowering, contrary to what society will have. You believe. And the reason why people don't want you to be selfish, is because they are selfishly wired, and they want you to do what they want you to do. And they call you selfish, interesting, everyone is selfish. Some people won't allow themselves to admit that they want to be selfish. And some people will put others ahead of them like I did, and then blame them. And again, I'm not saying I'm not at all saying here, don't do things for other people. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying care how you feel. Make that a selfish quest, hear about how you feel, and and discover that you can affect how you feel. And you're in charge of that, and leave everyone else off the hook. It's your job.

Nik Tarascio 

Where's the boundary? So if someone says, Okay, this is amazing, I'm super inspired by you, which I always am. But if someone says like, I'm really inspired by this concept of going out into the world, and trying this new version of being self referential and selfish in this way, but I worry that I may not do good in the process. Like I don't know how to know when it's, is there too selfish? Or is there different kinds of selfish, I still want to be in service of others. But I think what you said is right, when I've not done that, when I put myself second, I end up resenting the person I was trying to help, and they never even asked for that. They're like, why are you pissed at me? Or why? Are you holding things over me? Or why do you feel like I owe you something? Like, Oh, I did stuff that I didn't even want to do for you in the first place. So where's that line of like, how do we stay in a healthy form of selfishness?

Christine Meyer 

Well, well, you can tell by the way you feel when you're putting yourself first and not pushing against someone else. You're not harming other people. And, you know, there, there are things that will feel good to you to do, and things that won't feel good to you to do. And there are things that will feel good to me. So it's all a personal journey of discovery. And I say, All right, then go far off the other end of the scale and get get selfish in whatever ways you feel from where you are, and see if that feels good. And then ratchet it back and you'll find your way you'll find your way. But if you if you apply this umbrella of being selfish is good. How does it feel to put myself first? Well, it feels I feel guilty for doing that, because I've been told all my life not to do that. And it's like, how, how did we come to that conclusion, again, we came to that conclusion, because I please mean, right, just do the things I want you to do. And I'll be happy, I'll feel good. And if you don't, you've got a very short leash, because if you don't do the things that I want you to do, then I don't feel good. And I don't like that. And I think it's your fault. You see how intertwined and messy that gets, if we would all just get selfish and tend to how we feel. And yeah, we will play with people that will push our buttons, but that's part of being a human, and that those people are huge gifts to you, that the number one you attracted you rendezvous with. But also, you could thank those people that push your buttons, you can say thank you for contributing to my expansion. You're really annoying to me right now because I'm perceiving you from that perspective. Or, or or you are, you know, put in whatever you want. And but this interaction is causing me to expand. So really on the flip side of that is a huge thank you for causing me to expand and in this moment, I am not taking my expansion I am not that of all which I've become in this moment because I'm still blaming you. But you've contributed greatly to my experience.

Nik Tarascio 

Give me a real example of that so I can really, really grasp it.

Christine Meyer 

Well, so Okay, a real example is my daughter the other day when stirred a few things up, and, and I was not happy about that. I was angry about that, about her choices. And so she is the creator of her life. She's going to create experiences for herself too. Expand, that's none of my business really. And when this all unfolded, I had emotions around it, right, I felt angry, I felt disappointed, I felt sort of all a little bit all over the place, numerous emotions around. And, but once I was able to take step back from it, I was able to think, Alright, so she did this thing, I had a reaction to it. Whether it's right or wrong, I don't like really to put things in categories like that right or wrong, good or bad. It's an experience that she attracted into her experience for her own choices for her own experience for her own expansion. So as I look at that, and I see it, is there a different perspective, rather than judgment, rather than being disappointed rather than being angry, rather than then wanting to blame her for how I feel and and judge her, let's say, How can I take that experience that's made me expand, because now I have an opportunity, look at something that I've never looked at before. And think of it differently. Without that experience that I run a food with, I can keep, keep on keeping on with my beliefs and my assumptions and my judgments and my perspectives about things. Having that experience expanded me into a whole new universe of understanding of letting go of some old beliefs, some, some, some wiring that I might have around what parenting means, what parenting is, what a good or bad air quotes here, parent I am, what a good job, I'm doing what and, and because we are wired to love, we just are at the core of who we are, we are wired to love and when we are not loving, we are diminishing our own experience. So in those moments, when something is happening, that you don't like, you might not be able to feel love or appreciation for it. But as you step away from it and review it, can you find appreciation for that? Can you find the benefits in having an experience that you don't want? Think that you don't want? Can you find the benefits and the positive aspects, the the expanded version of what's really going on here? Because we're all expanding beings. And when we don't feel good, we've expanded and we're not going with that expansion. And so we do limit ourselves, we limit ourselves in those moments, we have these reactions to things, and then we kind of leave it there.

Nik Tarascio 

When it comes to children, I always try not to press too much on a specific story so that no one is sharing too deeply in that way. But I'm wondering if you could share without maybe telling her side of it? What was the judgment? And then what was the specific thought expansion that took place for you?

Christine Meyer 

Yeah, that's a great question. So so the the, the judgment around it was, you shouldn't have done that. The judgment around that was I don't like that the judgment around that was, you know, better than that. And then then a layer underneath that was, what does that mean about me as a parent? Right, because because, as a parent, I take my child as an extension of me, she's her own person and all of that, but her behaviors and how she goes out into the world. I do feel it's a reflection on me, also. And so that's the expansion. That's the expansion is how much does it reflect on me? How, how much does this have to do with me versus her being the creator of her own reality? Also, it touched on am I trying to control this child? How much control Have I got? What's mine and what's hers? What part of this is going to benefit her? And what part of it is it benefiting me? Because really, what's benefiting her is none of my business. That's for her to work out. I just hope that I give her the tools to work that out. But what she gets from it is truly none of my business. What I get from it is and so it it broadened my thought it because you can only you bump into things to help you expand And you bump into things to, to question your own perspectives and beliefs. And so it had me really, again wonder, how can I continue to let go, she's my child, and I feel responsible for her, but she's also the creator of her own reality, and she will continue to create her reality, whether I like it or not. And I might not always like it or not. And so then how can I then think differently about the situation? Am I? Am I blowing it out of proportion? Am I? How did I bump into this? And can I appreciate that I did bump into this and see it, again, to the point that we were speaking about as a sitcom see it as it's kind of funny. It's kind of funny.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, you know, it's the piece that I hear coming through, there's, as you were speaking, one I'll share a silly story is that my family has this funny thing we do at dinner, where when there's, you know, some shared food, or like a brownie, we'll just keep cutting it in half, until there's like the smallest morsel left, because no one wants to take the last piece. Right? I'm realizing like this plays that that, that dynamic of selfishness, but the other side of it is judgment. It's a fear of judgment, right? It's like, I want to have that because clearly I keep taking from it. But I don't want to be the one to take the last bit because of how that will be perceived by everybody else. So it's, it's a really funny thing of like, don't clear the plate, don't be the one to take the last bit so that no one else is left with anything. And as as you were talking that was coming through. And I started to think through how selfishness and judgment are these really complicated things of, you know, it's easy for me to say like my outside judgment is the worry, but it's not. It's actually my inner judgment. That is holding me back from being selfish. It's, it's the it's my projection of what I believe other people would think because I actually ranked that about myself. So I'm wondering how you've seen that judgment come up in the narratives, again, you're working with some of the most impressive people on the planet, right. And one thing I've noticed, as I've spent more time in, like the YPO communities in the entrepreneurial community is, it almost seems like people only go as far as they allow themselves to get right. There's a certain point where like, I couldn't make more money than this, or I couldn't possibly have done that. How do you help people with this concept of expanding their own self worth overcoming judgment and allowing themselves to be selfish,

Christine Meyer 

then? Well, it's different for everybody, right? Because everybody's in a different place about it. There are common beliefs there are, there are similar perspectives about being selfish, certainly. But I really work with the individual on where they're at with it. So that that could just be again, we talk about the broader perspective, we talk about the bigger general concepts of things first, because we need to lay a foundation on selfishness. If I just say to you, Nick, just stop being selfish, you're gonna say, but no, why? Why would I. But now that we've laid that foundation, now that I've sort of explained or expanded upon the subject of selfishness and brought in a new perspective, you're going to start considering that you are. And so it's, it's that a lot of it is that I'm bringing in new perspectives, I'm bringing in new foundations from which we bounce off of, and then you, I can't apply it for you. We talk about how to apply it, we talk about how you apply it here and perhaps couldn't, didn't feel right to apply it here and so on. But you have to discover how that plays into your life and you pay attention to how you feel you pay attention to what you're thinking you pay attention to your inner dialogue, you pay attention to how you, you're the judgment that you're having about yourself for saying, No, you know what, I'm not going to do that tonight because I'd rather stay home or I'd rather kind of like put yourself in a group of people who want to go to a restaurant. And let's say you're all standing on a street corner and you want Chinese food, but everyone and someone else wants steak and someone else wants doughnuts and someone else wants whatever right sushi and how do you ever How do you ever sort that out? Unless you're unless you're willing unless it's okay with you to go and have some of the other but if you really want what you want, why not just say hey, you guys go do your thing. I'm gonna go eat what I want and I'll see you later. But again, it's about taking responsibility for self taking credit for self taking credit for how I feel and and what I want because what you want and what I want might be different, but neither one is wrong.

Nik Tarascio 

I mean, this literally just happened last night was I've my fiance and my friend wanted to have sexual Chinese. I don't really like it. I don't like the spice makes my tongue numb. Not not fun for me. Like did you go No. I literally said I won't go I'm actually like I prefer to go to this other place and we got Indian instead. I'm okay with spice, just not certain spices. But it was like really interesting because at first I was like, I don't want to go. But I kind of threw a bit of a tantrum of like, I'm going to leverage the fact that me not going is the punishment. Like it's very avoidant behavior, right? And it's like, Wait, actually, I'm trying to muscle an outcome, which is also not great. It's like true. If I can say from a place of care, recognize, yeah, if I can, if I can say from a place of care, why don't you guys go, if that's what you really want to enjoy, I'm happy to opt out. But if you'd like me to be included, I'd prefer this other place. So I'll let you guys choose whether being with me is more important than sensual and Chinese. And I'm not offended either way, if that's your choice. So it was like an interesting,

Christine Meyer 

so much freedom, freedom, there's so much freedom. And that is that, like I said, Let others off the hook. And you know, there was a time, I don't know, several years ago, when the for July 4, my husband and daughter wanted to go see the the fireworks downtown. And I just didn't want to. And so I said, Hey, you guys go, I'm going to stay home, I wanted to see the fireworks. But I didn't want to go there. And that's okay. Right what I want and what they want is, even if it's different, it's okay. And so I didn't feel offended that they went without me, I didn't try and pull a guilt trip or manipulate them into doing what I wanted to do. I truly freely wanted them to do what they wanted to do while I also wanted to do what I wanted to do. And so off they went, they saw the fireworks there. And I sat here and I came upstairs, I looked out the windows, and I probably saw five different spots of fireworks going off. And so what why I'm saying this story here is because I want people to start, at least considering the idea that we can all have what we want, even if it looks different.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah. Yeah, except Except, and again, this is where I had a real edge with this yesterday was, did I actually want to just have different food on my own? Or did I actually want them to come to the other restaurant with me? Because what I didn't do yesterday was powerfully say, Listen, I'm pretty attached to not eating at that place, because it makes me feel sick. But I'd very much like to spend time with you guys, would you? Would you be open to that invitation. Now again, it all worked out in my favor. But it was almost too much vulnerability for me to say, I would feel sad if we didn't have dinner together. This is someone who was visiting from out of town. So it's I would have felt sad, had he not been there? Or if he had chosen the food over spending time with me. But I found that I didn't really say it was in the

Christine Meyer 

food, chosen the food over spending time with me. Is there a different way that you could look at that? You're making it a disorder that when not really, like if you want something to eat and he wants something deep? Could he not goes get something to eat? And then you get together again later?

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, I mean, again, and I think that's also part of the like, expansive possibility of hey, instead of meeting tonight for dinner, why don't you go get the food, you want to get the food I want. And we can catch up on another time while you're here in town. But it's hard not to personalize it. It's hard not to see that like, again, practice. Yeah, it does. I can see that. And again, I I imagine that, especially in long term intimate relationships or business partnerships are any like real high stakes, you know, dependent team process, that it's even harder to ask for that because it brings in all this other stuff of like, let's say I'm the more picky eater, right? And I'm not I happen to be less picky generally. But if I was the more picky eater, I'd imagine then all the shaming language comes in of like, Oh, God, you're always have an issue with everything I suggest. It's always that it's always this. So again, I imagine it's hard for some people to be selfish, when they're just different from the norm, right? It's lovely. If you're like, if you love watching baseball and drinking beers great, like you'll have plenty of people you can hang out with. But for those of us that are the strange outliers, I imagine it's it's probably not we here

Christine Meyer 

are well, it's really not that unique. And it is it's yes and a little bit. And aren't we outliers, sort of the not necessarily the Rule Breakers but the we, we question the rules. We question the beliefs around us we questioned, we question authority, we question all kinds of things right? And so Aren't we here sort of leading the way for other people, because none of us are free until we recognize that we are in charge of how we feel and what we perceive and find ways to feel better, and find ways to change our perspectives so that we we selfishly feel good. Because feeling bad, never feels good. And there's nothing wrong with feeling bad, but feeling bad, never feels good. So aren't we the ones who are on that leading edge who are saying, wait a minute, there's another way to look at this. Wait a minute, there's another belief that I could have there's something that I'm bumping into here. Whenever you feel bad, you got to know you've got to know that you are bumping into a limiting belief of Sometimes you're bumping into an outdated belief right here now, and you can do something about it now, did that belief serve you up until now probably, certainly hasn't harmed you, now you're bumping into it because you've expanded, you're not going to feel good. Unless you're moving in the direction of your expansion. You will feel dissatisfied for the rest of your life, if you don't find ways to feel good about movement forward.

Nik Tarascio 

I mean, it's, it's funny, every time I talk to you, I'm always like, I have no idea why we're talking. And I did, as I told you before we started recording, like, I don't ever have a why other than it's just fun to talk to you. Like I don't Yeah, there are people in my life that it's you know, it's an agenda. You're like, we're talking about this particular thing. And the goal is to get to some conclusion, when I talk to you, it's always fun just to meander through thoughts and find out that we're really at the crux of, at least for me, the idea that I will only ever have as much as I allow myself to have. Yep. And that's kind of 100% kind of hurts to think that is that, you know, I, again, I grew up middle class, around private jets. So I saw the Uber wealthy, and, you know, indoctrinated in, like the middle class should assume that wealthy people got that by doing dumb shit, their money came from gotten gains, so that you don't think you want that too. And you're not willing to do those things. But

Christine Meyer 

like, none of those beliefs serve you. That's right, those beliefs hold you from your own abundance.

Nik Tarascio 

That's right. That's exactly right. So it's like I keep hitting into these walls as I've gone down this road. And then I'm like, oh, it's interesting that I think a lot of the people I've spoken to that have it all, they sold for tons of money, right? They've got all the money in the world, they still have limiting beliefs that are now actually holding the mirror up to them of like, are you even worthy of this much are you allowed to?

Christine Meyer 

Absolutely. And, you know, again, there are all kinds of ways that this conversation could go but but if you're if, if you're accustomed to, to a certain lifestyle, let's say, then then your expectation is higher to allow more of that, you see. And so if you're giving, taking your your example, here, now, if you're born into money, your expectation of having money is higher, so you allow it more, if you were born not in money, and you worked your way hard, through something to something and became very wealthy, and then sold it right, then then you you found ways to allow it, perhaps through your struggling, your suffer, brings suffering. And then over the course of time, you come to believe that money only comes through hard work, struggle and suffering, and proving yourself and earning it. So so there's no, there's no straight path to anything, although we all want that straight path, everything that we introduce into our own lives is for our benefit is for our own evolution is for our own discovery and our own. So you are the creator of it, and you are also the creator of view. So you are you are creating and you are the creator, and you are the result of the creation, you see. And so, so yes, we there isn't one person on this planet who doesn't bump into some kind of a belief wall. At some point about something, whether that be money, whether that be relationships, self, it age, moving through time, like even there, let's talk about moving through time and and what people come to expect. They look around the the observe people moving through time, and many of them decline, many of them get sick, many of them, whatever, whatever, whatever. So that trains you, if you will, into an expectation of what's to come for you, even though you don't want it, you come to believe that that's what's coming for you to I don't want it but that's probably how you see what I'm where I'm going here. So at some point in time, you've got to start asking yourself, what do I want my experience to be? And, and about anything about anything, but while that's while I see that and that in that in that in that in that? What do I want my experience to be think of going to a restaurant and seeing a buffet a menu full of choices. You go to the restaurant, you say what do I want to eat? You can observe some of the other things on the on the menu and say, I don't really like that don't like that. But you're going to choose something that you want. So that that's really we have the ability to we do obliviously often, but we have a more we have more control over the outcomes we have more control over what we are actually creating. But the reason why we get some of this, and some of that, and some of this, and some of that, and some of this, and some of that is really, because we're looking at what we want, and we're talking about what we don't, we're looking at what we want, and we don't believe we can have it, we're looking at what we want. And we decide that that's just for them. Or we look at what we want, or what we would prefer. And we say yeah, but that's not how I was brought up. In inside, at the very core of me, I know I was born selfish. We all know that when we're born, but that's trained out of us. Don't you do that? You'll be selfish, please me first. You see, and so so many of the things that we accept are things that we've observed, we've been told, we perceive we felt and didn't check to see if that was really true for us to where we wanted to be wanted it to be true. And so there are plenty of opportunities, life will give you plenty of opportunities every day to bump into your limiting beliefs and ask yourself, Is this what I truly want to continue to believe?

Yeah, this resonates?

Nik Tarascio 

I'm I'm wondering what, you know, again, just more of a general curiosity. What do you believe is the most insidious, limiting belief that shows up in in the people you've worked with?

Christine Meyer 

Great question. I don't think there's any belief that is insidious, because you've come to that conclusion somehow. So I feel like what you believe is valid? Because you've come to that conclusion. But is it? Is it true? Is it authentically true, meaning authentic to who you truly are? So I think that one of the primary beliefs that people have is, I am not worthy. And I need to spend the rest of my lifetime proving myself worthy. And that applies for my clients.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, I imagine that people that are really good at pushing boundaries and going beyond where they were yesterday, because there are definitely some growth minded folks, right, especially entrepreneurial people, I imagine that being on the train of having the blessing of continued success must much just keep smashing into that edge. It's like dammit, I actually finally got comfortable what I had last year. And now I have more again this year. And then I'm starting a new with this whole, this whole concept of Am I worthy of this? Now I need to prove my worth to be here. And again, I only I don't know that perfect. But I know that that has been a little bit of my journey is every time I have a win, I'm like crap, we're here again. We're here again,

Christine Meyer 

you always will be because because it's what you're wired, you are wired, you were born wanting, if you didn't want the world would not expand. And so every human being that, you know, wants and even for the even the people say no, I don't want anything we want. If you still want there's still desire there is there not? I don't want anything. Yeah, that that is still a want. And so we are wired to want we are wired for desires, because desires is what keeps the universe expanding us and the universe. That's That's how evolution happens. Desires. He will evolution. And so wanting is never never never a bad thing. And think about it. When you get to when you get to a destination, let's say you, you get in your plane and you get to a destination where you don't just sit there in the plane, you get out of the plane and you check out what's there. So so it's it's, it's it's a false premise to believe that we shouldn't want and it's a false premise to believe that wanting more selfish or greedy, because we are wired at the very core of us to want more. Now the distinction I like to make is can you want more and be satisfied with where you are? Can you want more and be satisfied on the way to more knowing that what you want is inevitable? And most people don't believe because and me included? I don't always believe that I can have what I want because sometimes I want that something that's far beyond where I am right now. So it's hard. It's hard. It feels hard. It's like well, wait a minute, can I want something that that that I've not experienced yet? And the answer is yes. The answer is what I want is inevitable. Now can I mold my beliefs to match more of that desire? Because if I'm saying I want that but I want that but I want that but but but but then I'm walking around with a whole lot of butts and not much problem. Rest Of War toward what I want. But the nature of our being is to desire desire is desire is part of our DNA, if you will.

Nik Tarascio 

Man, you're just dropping bombs. So we got to land the plane soon, but I have two final questions make it a soft landing. Yeah, exactly. We're not gonna we're gonna have a hard landing today. In the case of, I mean, there's just so much rich stuff in these questions, I almost want to do part two immediately. But we can we think about this experience of desire that we all have, there's kind of a couple of different things to do. One is to say, if I don't believe I'm worthy of more than I need to shame, the desire or dissociate from that desire. On the flip side, if we want something that's like you said, I can't see the path to get there. Like, it'll probably reveal itself at some point. But today, I can't see because it's so far to go. How do I sit in the discomfort of that desire without resenting it?

Christine Meyer 

Know that see that? That's ask a different question.

Nik Tarascio 

What question should I truly don't know? Like, I mean, this is, this has been, you know, look,

Christine Meyer 

I was never asking you to sit in the discomfort of anything.

Nik Tarascio 

I know. You're not how can I? I know you're not. But I think it's like that the you know, again, I was raised in a certain way. And a lot of that is, you know, your wants are not necessary. Your needs, maybe, maybe you need too much, right? Like, there's something to that,

Christine Meyer 

well, you your needs are never too much. It's just that, you know, when you ask your parents for your fourth pair of shoes, when you were a kid, and they didn't have the money. They felt bad number one. And so what's the next best answer is like you greedy little bugger. Why do you always want more, you've already got three pair of shoes. So so it's understandable why people come to that conclusion. But but the idea is that when there's something that feels out of your reach that you want, can you understand that so Oh, this is good here. So pure desire, sorry, my face is really dark. But here we go. The pure desire, feels good, pure. People have learned to associate desire with yearning. I love that. But oh, but that kind of thing in that little voice,

Nik Tarascio 

for Exactly exactly.

Christine Meyer 

That, but I don't have it right. So then that's how we learn to manipulate, have temper tantrums, scream, beg, plead, borrow, whatever. And instead of understanding, desire, pure desire feels good, pure desire, from your soul's perspective is yummy. Something more to want, yay, something to work toward, move toward. And the reason we have desires is for the journey toward them. It's when you think about it, when you when you have a desire, and you and you finally get to it. You're happy with it. And you might appreciate it and like it and love it and have a thrilling moment about it. But how long do you just sit there and say, Good, I did that. Done. Now I'm done. Now I'm done. If you don't, there's other things you want other things, other places to be people to see and that kind of thing. So so no, no, I think it's important to understand the difference make the distinction that desire. pure desire feels good. resisted desire feels horrible.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, I hear a lot of foot on the gas put on the brake at the same time here. Yeah, okay. And that, okay, that's a powerful distinction, to really say, we are wired to want I think that's kind of the biggest thing I take from today. That's that's where I feel like we finally come to is we by nature should want and we should feel good in the wanting and that desiring we should find a way to give ourselves that permission.

Christine Meyer 

We by nature can't help but want not should can't help but want. We by nature are not meant to feel bad about wanting. We by nature are made to want and feel the purity of desire. We as humans, get in the way of our desires.

Well said.

Nik Tarascio 

Well said, yeah, that is again, I could go forever in these conversations. I've just every time we talk I'm like, I wish time wasn't a thing. And maybe it's not but in this case, unfortunately. So I have to ask you the last question It's so important.

Christine Meyer 

And just to time, you know, we do live within the context of time. Which gives us structure.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah. Yeah. So, again, typically My question is, you know, you started out with a dream of being a vet and race cars and helping others. I'm actually curious to know what's your dream beyond what do you dream about now and maybe it's even what is just your desire? What is that most pleasurable desire that you hold today?

Christine Meyer 

To tune be joyful to playfully joyfully live? Wherever that takes me

Nik Tarascio 

fantastic I wish I had a whoopee cushion or something to sound off in this moment.

Christine Meyer 

Darn it, I shouldn't

Nik Tarascio 

myself for not having thought this through but I was like in that moment. Next one, some people ring bells and hit gongs. We would have just had a nice whoopee cushion sound to say. We did it you know

Christine Meyer 

and and like I have I have bathroom humor all the way through I was brought out with with three brothers and that was how we bonded we at the dinner table. They would all art can I say that on here? Oh, I to this day. I just It just It cracks me up.

Nik Tarascio 

Yeah, well, again, it's it's beautiful to come back full circle from the moment we were hanging out and CBS. And I think it was 2012 or something like that. So it's been it's been quite. So I think you really recapped it quite beautifully with what you said. And wow, just it's a big it's a big idea that we are wired to want. And sometimes we get in the way of of

Christine Meyer 

right often. Yeah, and often and that's okay. Like, I want to make that okay, but you can get out of your way. Yeah.

Nik Tarascio 

Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna hold that I'm gonna hold that for a little bit. My current desire is to really grasp what you're saying. To be able to fully give myself that experience of wanting as someone that always wants more always has wanted more and was pretty verbal about it until I was told to stop talking about it all the time. Because it's seen as a complaint, which is interesting, because I was like, Yes, I was yearning. I wasn't desiring. I didn't think I could have it so I was suffering it

Christine Meyer 

right and back to your I know you want to end here but back to your your comment before how can I? I'm paraphrasing here be okay with the dissatisfaction want to say don't be okay with the dissatisfaction. Find a way to be satisfied knowing that you'll always want more. It's an endless journey of more. And so can you find a way to be satisfied with right where you are on your inevitable way to more?

Nik Tarascio 

You speak well, you think well, too. It's fun. It's fun to watch how your mind works. So thank you. Thank you so much for being here and I again, I encourage for for any listeners interested in learning more about Christine's thoughts and work and just how her mind processes really cool information. Check out her book keep it simple, smarty pants, and you can also get a free chapter on our websites. If you check out our website. You can download a free chapter and check it out. Very low commitment but either way, Christine just so awesome to hear this stuff and I hope everyone had a great great time listening to our conversation about what be cushions

Christine Meyer 

Thanks, Nick for having me.

Nik Tarascio 

Take care. Thank you for listening to the dream beyond. I hope that you receive whatever message or inspiration you were meant to get from today's episode.

I had a great time recording it for you.

Nik Tarascio 

If you love the show, please take 30 seconds to subscribe rate and review it that really helps get the word out. And if you want to connect with me, you can find me at

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