#why are we having discourse about the same things over and over and over again

[shifuaang]

'The scar discourse is still going' - actually ya'll chose to blow up a post I made FOUR years ago and make it an issue. There's something wrong with this fandom fr.

Let your anger out, but then let it go.

[cherrymoonvol6]

.

[myfandomrealitea]

okay, so- this is coming from someone who really hasn't engaged in fandom discourse, especially regarding shipping and such. I dearly hope this doesn't come across as bait or troll, I'm genuinely curious and want to learn. apologies for the possibly-dumb question, but I really just need to ask-

what is proshipping? and what are 'antis'?

you know how it is, when you ask around you always get a biased answer one way or another. "proshippers are pedos" "proshippers all condone incest" "proship Bad and if you interact You Are Bad" (i think these are 'anti' points of view? am i using that term right? that's the rhetoric ive mainly heard). but despite all of that, i don't know if ive ever actually gotten a straight answer as to just.. what it factually is. because it doesn't feel like the sort of thing that you can boil down to insults or accusations or whatnot. it's all just very confusing to me, especially because i come from a place that essentially just told me to avoid like the plague and never look back. sorry, this became a bit of a ramble, lol. thank you so much in advance, i hope i'm not being a bother or insulting with this ^^;

The modern term; 'proship' (s.a; 'proshipping' and 'profiction') is an evolution of an earlier fandom acronym known as: 'SALS.'

Ship And Let Ship

SALS was one of the earliest fandom adoptions and interpretations of the concept of not bullying others for what they shipped or their fandom interests, and not trying to control or dictate what was "allowed" to be shipped or enjoyed. The most notable origin of SALS was during the early years of accessible fandom via Star Trek, and the present homophobia and misogyny in a largely male-dominated community.

As woman became more involved in fandom spaces, the presence of 'other' ships and pairings began to increase. M/M, F/F that wasn't purely for sexual gratification, and M/O and F/O (where 'O' is Other) pairings were popular amongst women, much as they still are today.

Not only did the presence of women in a "male space" receive a not insignificantly negative reaction, so too did them filling the fandom space with their shipping content. Now; sexism and misogyny and homophobia were not entirely to blame. Again as is still very much present today, people simply Did Not Like Certain Ships or Characters. And as they still do today, they'd spread hate about them and to the people who did enjoy them.

Thus: the birth of SALS.

(In other words: I like what I like and it has fuck all to do with you. Shut up and move on.)

Back then, SALS was mostly contained to just that. Ships and characters. Since back in that era 'taboo topics' and 'sexual content' were still pretty covert, people weren't exactly arguing the merits of incest in public forums and at conventions.

However, as all things do, the internet evolved. Society evolved. Media evolved. And so too did 'SALS' evolve in keeping with the new culture and subjects present in fandom spaces.

Suddenly it wasn't just ships and characters to be advocated for. It was themes. Subjects. Kinks. Plots. The more things people found to enjoy, so too did the more things people found to hate.

'Proship' is actually grammatically pro-ship. As in; in support of shipping. This is why I always state that the modern conceptions of proshipping would more accurately be coined profiction. It is no longer just about ships, but fiction as a whole.

However; the core value and sole inherent point of being proship, SALS, profiction and so forth remains exactly the same:

[I/We] believe you have no right to harm others over the [ship/content] they create or consume and [I/we] do not have the right to dictate what is or is not allowed in fandom spaces.

That's it. Don't harass people for what they enjoy fictionally. Don't try to force them into not enjoying or being able to enjoy it.

Of course, the modern adaption varies wildly in terms of 'additional values' thanks to the evolution of the term and what it can encompass. However, there is certainly no obligation to:

Create or consume content you are uncomfortable with.

Create or consume content regarded as 'taboo' or 'triggering.' Such as incest.

Be involved with any aforementioned content beyond turning a blind eye if its not your thing.

Inherently, anyone who says they're 'neutral' on the matter but firmly believes in minding their own business is just a proshipper refusing to use the label if you're taking the term solely at its core value.

In terms of 'antis' they're just the antithesis of the above. Antis are people who generally believe that fiction is irrevocably tied in with who you are, what you believe/condone, and that real-life limitations and values should also apply to fiction.

Although, its is heavy debated and it wildly varies per individual to the degree this is taken.

(E.g: some 'antis' believe you should only write rape fic if you are a victim using it as catharsis or education. Other 'antis' believe there's absolutely no excuse or reason to write rape fic at all.)

Antis typically believe that enjoyment or being invested in content which is regarded as harmful or illegal in real life is morally unsound and reflects that you're a bad or morally unsound person.

Although I disagree, I can honestly say in some aspects I do understand this reasoning. I don't agree, but I do understand why people may come to that conclusion.

As with proshippers, antis vary from people who simply ignore and block content they don't agree with to radicals.

'Anti' is again a prefix. Although modern adoption of the term uses it as a singular signifier, it would grammatically be anti-[fandom], anti-[character], ect. As was commonly used in the past.

The rhetoric that all proshippers are pedophiles or support incest is common-spread and effective 'anti' propaganda. Similar to how so many people believe 'proship' inherently signifies that you must create and/or consume taboo or darker content.

It doesn't.

¹ Proship may also be accurately termed as simply: 'anti-harassment.' ² Its important to note the 'definition' of these terms may vary wildly depending on the individual. However, detailed above is the most historical use and evolution of the terms and their definitions.

[mochifiction]

I’m totally not back for some Late Night Transformers One discourse…who said that…I wanna address something I’ve seen in some of the feedback for the film that, I don’t know, irks me…? One of these things is the fact that “Orion is an asshole” or “immature and stupid” and therefore people don’t like him. I don’t know how to say this, but…he’s like that in a lot of continuities. Orion, in most variants, is a smartass. He has a mouth which gets him both a platform and also in trouble. He also has a habit of seeing short-term solutions to long-term issues. These are things that have existed for a long time, and I think those who have been calling him unlikeable or an ass haven’t seen his variants in the source material. People who also expected him to be a data clerk and throwing a fit about the fact that he’s not also need to realize that it’s a COMIC FRANCHISE. You won’t get the same story every time, and to expect a new continuity to fall back on the sole continuity YOU want is honestly insane. If we regurgitate the same narrative over and over again, the franchise loses originality. Audiences for other franchises have also voiced disdain when their favorite pieces of media get repetitive. This is also a reminder to people that Orion Pax and Optimus do not have the same exact personalities. That’s the whole point and why some people grieve Orion’s absence. To expect him to be the likable gentle giant we know as Optimus Prime right away is an impossible demand to be met. Not only that, but this isn’t even the film relying on one version of Orion, but a mosaic of them all.

I also saw people saying D-16 switched on Orion way too quickly. I’d also argue here that other continuities did similar behavioral changes. In Aligned, Megatronus literally turns his back on him and abandons him at the Council meeting. The behavior is shockingly abrupt, which hurts Orion because he didn’t understand what he could have possibly done wrong. I’d also argue that, in this film, you see multiple times where D-16 is irritated with Orion’s sense of almost immature and irresponsible justice. It’s subtle but then leads to a quick snap. The behavioral change is supposed to be jarring. You’re supposed to feel like it comes out of nowhere.

I am half asleep writing this so I can make another in-depth post when I’m more alive, but I just wanted to remind people they only had an hour and forty minutes to display how a civil war occurs. That’s very hard to do as someone who studies and writes about revolutions and anti-colonial resistance. With the time they had, it was a good job. I only pray people read the source material before giving CinemaSins-esque critiques as well. No Transformers film is perfect. This one definitely wasn’t trying to be.

[pathologicalrunaway]

i saw that one tumblr post about how aviary cheapens the point of sky as a story (the civilisation is lost and all we know are only shadows of what was before; but aviary brings everyone back and we coexist now, instead of being two generations that were never supposed to meet) reposted on reddit a while ago and i have a couple of thoughts on this matter.

because one hand, i do agree that there was a bittersweetness in walking through a dead world that was lost. that aviary feels alive and the world is supposed to be dead. but i think a crucial aspect of this whole discourse (lore-wise) could lie in the first character aviary can be associated with. and this character — and their little village — do not really contradict the point of the game, but contribute to it

hopeful steward. they are, first things first, a child. like we are, as players. and children are often associated with hope for a better future, and this game is no exception. it's up to the children to bring light back, it's us and our connections that make sky a happy place. it's us that bring hope in the fact thay maybe, maybe not everything is over yet. that there's still something to admire, something to love, something to believe in.

steward is the one waiting in front of the village doors, they are the one showing us how to bring back the village, so it would make sense to assume that the village is their idea and, to an extent, their responsibility.

they are in charge of this silly little community like elders once were, but the elders fell. they made bad decisions that led to the world's destruction. this is mostly speculation, at least now, and we should wait for two embers to give us the whole picture, but it looks like the reason why aviary exists is because the world was on the verge of collapse and hopeful steward (and a couple more people) wanted — if not to prevent this — at least to try to save someone.

a second chance for the dying world.

they were hoping for a better future despite the inevitable doom. they had hope in the fact that, even in those dark times, the world would bounce back.

and their name says a lot about them. they wake up to see their home destroyed, their friends gone, the bells broken. the only thing alive is the child with a candle in front of them. but they don't succumb to despair, they keep faith, showing the newcomer around, explaining what happened.

they have no reason to believe that the kid that has just fallen fron the sky can restore light. they have no proof they are even able to do such things, that they are strong enough. they just hope.

and their hope pays back, eventually, after oh-so many losses. the world — and, most importantly, its people, — are saved. maybe not in the way any of them wanted but hey, life's tricky like that.

hopeful steward and their village refraim the point of the story, not destroy it. we spent years wandering in an empty kingdom haunted by the ghosts of what once were its people, not knowing what happened, or who they used to be, or if there was a way they could be happy again. and now we know that dark times don't last forever. trees grow back when people leave cities, animals return to where progress preciously exiled them from, and humanity bounces back. life is a cycle, and nothing just stays gone forever. good times come, eventually. with hope and friendship and love.

but it doesn't mean things are exactly the way they used to be, no. the realms are still destroyed. people look very different now. aviary village grows, but it's slow and painful and we are constantly reminded of how nothing is the same anymore (nesting guide looking wistfully at the picture, compassionate cellist and duets guide's dream coming true far too late). many go to the stars because this is an option now, and there is no guarantee the village's inhabitants will stay there forever, just like there was no guarantee back then that they would live there happily ever after.

and eden stayed the same. at the end of the day, all the loss and pain and mistakes of people there were before us is still here. it's just now we're stopping mourning the past and focus on the present instead

[jeonscatalyst]

https://www.tumblr.com/jeonscatalyst/760242773222883328/this-all-of-this-and-every-single-bit-of-this?source=share

I do agree with this person's analysis of Jimin and Jungkook personalities, and I also agree that to some extent Jungkook's affection being rarer than Jimin's does make it more special to some fans, but where I disagree is that I don't think that's the main reason why fans seem to put more weight in what Jungkook does than what Jimin does.

Because while some fans will put this much thought on the differences in jikook's personalities, I don't think it's the majority that does. It's kinda of a problem we have actually. If people realised that Jimin and Jungkook are two different people with different ways of showing affection, then we wouldn't have to keep seeing the same stupid takes on their relationship over and over again. It's people expecting jikook to always do to the other the exact same thing the other did to them that causes so much annoying discourse.

But you know what a lot of shipper do love doing? Competing with one another. Competition is one of the main things in every k-pop fandom and sub-fandom, shippers are no exception. And when it comes to jikookers we all know the competition is with taekookers. We're always at each other's throats, let's be honest. And some spend just as much time taking about the rival ship as they do talking about their own ship.

Which leads me to what I believe is the real main reason why both sides (not just jikookers) view Jungkook's actions as more important. It's because he's the in-common person to both ships. He's like the main character in a love triangle. He's the one that ultimately decides who gets together in the end, not the two love interests, so their actions don't matter as much.

The point of contention with shippers has never really been whether or not Jimin or Taehyung like Jungkook, that's already assumed to be the case. With solos it's definitely an argument, but jikookers and taekookers focus more on each other than in solos. No, the real question has always been who does Jungkook like more: Jimin or Taehyung?

If Jimin declares his love for Jungkook jikookers will of course love that, but if Jungkook is the one who does it it'll matter more because it can be used against taekookers. Taekookers don't care if Jimin loves Jungkook or not, what he feels doesn't matter to them. Nothing Jimin says can prove anything to them. The confirmation has to come from Jungkook, that's the only way they'll care about it. And jikookers do care about one-upping taekookers. If we didn't we wouldn't spend so much time trying to prove to them that we're right.

There's been plenty of times when I've seen something that used to not matter suddenly become important the moment people realize it could be used in the shipping competition. It's a sort of 'I didn't care that much about that thing I have until I realized it could make the other side jealous'. Or 'I didn't want that thing until the other side got it and now I want it too'.

Things naturally hold more importance to people when those things have not only their own inherent value but also when they have the added bonus of pissing off someone you don't like. Jimin's love for Jungkook is important by itself but Jungkook's love for Jimin is seen as more important because it will also piss off taekookers.

I'm pretty sure that if the two biggest ships were jikook and vmin instead, then the most important thing suddenly would be Jimin's affection, regardless of how affectionate he is with everyone.

Again, I do agree some fans do consider jikook's differences and that that does influence how they value their actions, it's just that I think there's a bigger reason here.

I hope this didn't come across as me being a contrarian for the sake of it, I just wanted to add a separate perspective on the subject because I've had this opinion for a while and it seemed relevant to the topic. I also hope I was not to harsh on my opinions of other jikookers, but no fandom is without it's flaws and I think it's important to acknowledge them.

Anon, I owe you a cold beer right now because it seems like you read my mind.

This is exactly what I think too. It’s just mostly about the competition, the shipwars, the fights and the need to “win”. That’s really why people think Jungkook’s actions hold more meaning that Vmins. It’s like Jungkook is the prize that Vmin are desperately trying to win and every action or word of his is used as an affirmation or debunking. “Jungkook did this with Tae but didn’t do that with Jimin so Tae is his boyfriend”….just an endless cycle of bullshit.

Anyone who is mature and experienced enough understands that Jimin and Jungkook don’t have to express themselves exactly the same for things to be mutual. Jimin could say “I love you” to Jungkook and Jungkook wouldn’t say it back but would prefer to make a video of Jimin. So many people would say Jungkook didn’t reciprocate just because he didn’t do things exactly the way Jimin did when the truth is that he did, just in his own way.

When I see people coming up with useless takes or comparisons about their bond it pisses me off to no end because it’s the little things that Jungkook does. People would get pissed at Jungkook and say that he doesn’t show love to Jimin as much as Jimin does just because Jimin would constantly touch him, ask him to eat alot and is very vocal about his affection but Jungkook remembering that Jimin likes his food spicy and trying to make it just how Jimin likes it apparently means nothing because Jungkook wasn’t shouting on a roof top or Jungkook thinking of what to cook in Jeju and knowing that Jimin would love it doesn’t matter because he didn’t stand on a podium and announce it or Jungkook quietly getting water for Jimin and giving him to drink without him asking doesn’t mean a thing because he didn’t carry Jimin on his head. Sometimes I don’t even have the energy to argue because if only people understood Jungkook they would know that Jungkook doesn’t treat anyone the same way he does Jimin.

I personally can see how someone might naturally value Jungkook’s actions more because Jimin is a natural caring, nurturing and loving person to everyone so sometimes it is hard to tell if his actions mean more or it is just him being himself but with Jungkook, he tries as much as possible to be impartial but he just cannot help it when it comes to Jimin. He is pretty kind and caring towards everyone he loves too but not the same way Jimin does it plus Jungkook tends to go big when he expresses his affection for Jimin. So with Jimin we get little bits of love and affection more frequently than we get from Jungkook but once we get one from Jungkook, it is usually news worthy and kinda exclusive to Jimin so it hits harder.

I dunno. I might have gone off topic but like I said, I 100% agree with you.

[dropoutconfessions]

Everyone’s allowed to feel how they feel about K. You do not HAVE to like K. K is an imagination people and does not matter compared to reality people.

The actual problems that I think all this discourse is stemming from is a problem in not just fandom here but in fandom as a whole. It’s a problem of trends: Why is our attention so frequently held by the masculine and white? Why, when we expand the world and look into the interiority of side characters, is our focus so targeted on white men? Why are women so overlooked, why are people of color so often ignored?

This is a wider issue. A trickling down of real world racism affecting our little play spaces. And the problem is that an issue which appears in larger trends, an issue that is a general pattern of behavior, is not easy to fix. We can’t fix this by harassing individual people. We can’t fix this by ignoring it. We definitely can’t fix it by pretending like its a problem here and only here rather than everywhere.

I wouldn’t be so bitter about K and dislike of K if I wasn’t overly sensitive to the idea of POC and femme characters getting the short end of the stick. I wouldn’t be so apprehensive about SamEvan, which is a frankly adorable and lovely ship, if I could trust people in general to act right about black women. I wouldn’t be so mad when people call Jammer and his friends rude while ignoring anything Evan did if I hadn’t seen it as the start of a malicious pattern.

If I hadn’t been in fandoms where every single woman got called a Hideous Bitch and every single person of color was Secretly Evil then I wouldn’t even be posting this. If I hadn’t seen people latch onto men with three lines and refuse to even consider thinking about women with entire arcs, I wouldn’t care about the lack of K posts. It would just be opinion. But it’s not just opinion when it happens over and over again to the same kinds of characters every time.

I don’t think it’s that bad in the mismag fandom. I don’t WANT it to get that bad here. But I don’t know how else to stop it, so I type up little confessions, and I hope someone reads them and thinks about this shit a little bit before they post.

I think people should calm down and stop insulting each other. I think people should take a break, if they need one, from fandom. I think people should leave each other alone and quit passive aggressively throwing ‘shade’ at opinions they don’t like because there is NOTHING wrong with individual opinion. There IS something wrong with the pattern its a part of but you can’t blame a person for a pattern you see in them or else you’ll end up snapping at a monster that isn’t even there yet.

Most of what I want is for people to think about how they think. Nobody has to stop liking Evan (ofc) but it is and should be concerning that even in this relatively progressive space, I keep seeing the same patterns creep their subtle and insidious way into the things I love.

I think we can all do better than this. I think we can do much better. I think we deserve better, all of us, than all of this.

-

[gotorux]

Fandom Discourse Analysis

Mentions of aging up, enjoying villian characters, and disliking popular characters.

Something I have noticed about anime becoming more popular and mainstream and also the rise in minors in certain spaces is a constant level of discourse over certain topics. I truly believe it’s a good thing anime has become more popular. However, as it brings in more viewers, I think it’s important too open up the conversation surrounding the necessity of distinguishing fiction from reality. There is a lot of posts I see while browsing tags and although I don’t post often I think something needs to be said about three very specific topics that, for me, mean a lot and seem to have a lot of discourse surrounding them. 

One of the things I see happening a lot lately within the community is the hatred against people for liking fictional characters who happen to be minors in their respective animes. The aging up dilemma. First off, let me start by saying that a fictional pixel on a screen does not = minor. It can not be a minor because it is a drawing that was made up whenever the author wrote it. And in a lot of these instances, these characters are crafted by the authors with traits that appeal broadly to audiences, transcending their canon ages. This is particularly evident in shonen anime, where characters are often depicted with maturity, wisdom, or exaggerated physical features that align more closely with adult aesthetics rather than with children. This stylistic choice by many authors is done purposely to cater to a wide demographic, enabling viewers to form connections with characters regardless of age. 

It's important to recognize that a great majority of the time it is NOT the age that attracts viewers to the character which differentiates them with people in real life who are attracted to minors. Having a crush on, or writing about a fictional character that, like I said previously more closely align with adult aesthetics, does not make someone a pedophile. I think when it comes to loli and shota, then yes maybe we can open up this conversation as those characters are made to look like children. But that’s another topic. Acknowledging the fictional nature of these characters and their resemblance to adult fictional characters should be taken into consideration and not be misconstrued as indicative of real-life inclinations towards minors. Not to mention many of these authors don’t want them to be minors which is why they write about them as adults. Again, these are NOT minors. They are drawings and their ages can be changed depending on who’s writing them. An author could come out tomorrow and say the character has always been an adult and that would make it canon. It is not the same as pedophilia. Most people like characters like Sukuna that doesn’t reflect their real life tastes. Which brings me to my next point. 

Liking a villainous character does not correspond to endorsing those actions in real life. Anime often portrays "evil" characters with a depth that makes them appealing through usually through some form of tragic backstory, a charismatic or confident personality, or having extremely complex motivations. I think this makes people often misunderstand that liking them is a reflection of one's real-world values. That is not the case. 

Some people even like these characters just for being attractive and due to the fact they are fictional, and again an authors way of getting people to appeal to said characters, it can not be misconstrued of saying that those actions would be okay in real life scenarios. These characters allow viewers to explore themes of conflict, redemption, and moral ambiguity that can be explored in safety because it’s fiction. I think one of the main reasons people find themselves drawn to them is that villian characters are often created with flaws and authors give them depth to explore said flaws. This is why anti-hero characters are also often seen as more relatable and engaging. Anti-heroes, like villains, aren't bound by the usual moral constraints and often make decisions that are more realistic than heroes would. They can express doubts, conflicts, and vulnerabilities that mirror real human experiences. This makes them intriguing and allows audiences to connect with them on a deeper level.

All that said I think the attraction to villainous or morally grey characters often stems from their complexity and the opportunity they provide for viewers to engage with difficult ideas and emotions in a safe, controlled setting. These characters challenge our perceptions of good and evil by navigating a blurred line between the two which is appealing for most people. 

The last thing I want to bring up which kind of ties in with liking villainous characters is that disliking certain characters beloved by others is not necessarily a negative stance. Anime characters are crafted with diverse backgrounds, personalities, and motives, which naturally produce varied reactions among viewers. Understanding a character's motives yet still disliking them is completely valid and should stop being treated as inherently wrong or a negative reflection of someone. 

People are allowed personal preference and I think that encourages a a better discussion within anime communities whereby differing opinions can coexist. It is through these discussions that fans can dig into character analysis and conversations revolving around characters. Recognizing that disagreement over characters is totally normal and that people can be cool with each other, or be friends and disagree is important in both real life and fiction. 

At the end of the day there is also the block button which I will admit I use when needed, if you disagree with someone’s take. Instead of sending them hate and being a horrible person on the internet. 

[txttletale]

not the same anon but ive often seen transfems complain that transmascs will “refuse to let go of femininity” and “misgender ourselves” when we talk about how being treated as girls/women during our entire lives affects us materially and also psychologically. ive never understood that. where do you stand on that? Important clarifications: 1) i dont believe trans women, closeted or otherwise, pre or post transition, have male privilege. i dont believe the upbringing “discourse” is a zero-sum game (where if being raised female means tm experience misogyny, being raised male means tw have male privilege). 2) i dont believe in transandrophobia in any shape or form, I believe trans men suffer bc of misogyny and transphobia, and trans women bc of the same + transmisogyny. 3) im not trying to gotcha you or pick a fight i mean this entirely neutrally. im ready to accept that im wrong i simply want to understand why.

yea i mean, like -- obviously this is a subject that's really easy to bad-faith on either side but i think you're approaching in good faith so i'm going to answer in turn: i don't think any (serious) transfeminists begrudge that trans men have a lifetime experience of suffering directly from misogyny or that they discuss these things. i think there are obvious common experiences and solidarity to be found in these common experiences!

the times where i often see the argument that transmascs are 'misgendering themselves' is when they weaponize transmisogyny by self-infantilizing to paint an interaction they had or disagreement with a transfem as the transfem being 'predatory', 'threatening', etc -- transmisogynist trans men will very often do this, implicitly misgendering themselves by invoking the transmisogynistic spectre of the Big Scary Autogynophile sexually threatening the Poor Innocent Wombyn.

secondly, transmisogynistic transmascs will absolutely weaponize their own misogynistic trauma in disagreements with trans women -- it's not uncommon on this website for trans women trying to discuss transmisogyny to be met with paragraphs of transmisogynistic transmascs graphically describing their own experiences with sexual assault and violence, which again plays into the exact same stereotypes to the advantage of the transmasc in the situation.

similarly, transmisogynistic transmascs will also use language that groups them with cis women in an implicitly self-misgendering way for the sake of being transmisogynistic and excluding trans women. the most infamous version of this is the phrase 'women and AFABs' which gets tossed around quite often in so-called 'queer spaces', but there are also accusations of a universal 'male socialization' (used to paint trans women as aggressive, entitled, dangerous, etc, while trans men are harmless, demure, talked over by loud scary trans women, etc).

so tldr: i don't think any serious transfeminist begrudges trans men for talking about how misogyny has shaped their lives. when accusations of 'self-misgendering' come in is when (certain) trans men align themselves politically with transphobic cis women over trans women and use their own history with misogyny as a cudgel against trans women, or purposefully twist self-misgendering transmisogynistic narratives against trans women for their own personal advantage.

[romanarose]

Banner by @winniethewife

Oscar Issac/Pedro Pascal Fan Art and Fiction Pride Event 2024

Hello friends!

Let's try this again and I'll try to be more clear to not invoke discourse. That being said, it is *my* event and if you'd like to run one a certain way, go nuts. However, this is how I'm doing it.

I had a lot of fun doing Dead Dove December and the Triple Frontier Anniversary Event so I decided I wanted to do an event for pride this year! I know it seems far away right now, especially given how many of us in north America are still cold af, but I wanna give everyone time!

Each week of pride will have a theme to write or draw for (you don't have to do all of them! Think of it like kinktober.) at the end, I will put out a masterlist (or multiple depending how many)so we can all share each other's work.

Why?

Oscar Isaac and Pedro Pascal are both allies to LGBT people, Pedro having played multiple queer rolls and having likened his sexuality to that of Prince Oberyn. Despite none of the characters being canon queer, Triple Frontier specifically lends itself to queer stories. Recently, theres been a rise in stories of Oscar characters in relationships or Pedro characters in relationships which I love.

What I'd really like to do is encourage people to think past x fem!reader or canon presentation of characters. I want to encourage gay, lesbian, bisexual relationships, trans readers, trans interpretations of characters etc. More content guidelines will be in the what section.

Where?

Primarily tumblr.com, our very own shithole hellsight. However, especially given tumblr's censorship vs. twitter, I am encouraging posting on twitter or wherever you'd like. If you post something elsewhere, send me a link or send me a post you made about it on tumblr and I'll promote the link.

Additionally if you only write on ao3, I'd love for you to participate too! Once again, just send the link!

When?

in order to do the week by week themes and hold all of June, there will be 6 weeks from May 26th-July 6th

Each week will have themes. I won't be policing the weeks and these so if you do the 1st week on july 3rd, that's fine. The themes are keeping in mind both artists and writers. I only got one artist for DDD, a great piece and I've love to see more! Ideas are just for spit balling, do your own take!

May 26th-June 1st: Coming out. Ideas: Coming out to family, lover, friend. Finding gender affirming clothes/hair, first pride

June 2nd-8th: Transitioning Ideas: Surgary, surgery scars, starting T or E, binding (safely!!!)

June 9th-15th: Sex/kissing First time together, first time with certain biology or the same sex, sweet kisses, smut showing scars,

June 16th-22nd: Food, fashion, fun

All things queer culture and culture of different religions, racial or country backgrounds, queer fashion, gender affirming clothes, Keshet (קשת), listening to Lady Gaga or Bruce Springsteen, watching a queer movie

June 23rd-29th: Struggles Rejection, reconciling faith and identity, missing family that rejected one, comfort, candlelight vigil, day of remembrance.

June 30th- July 6th:Strength Asserting ones or a partner/friend/family's pronouns, standing up against hate, being loudly and proudly yourself, pride events

Who?

Writers and artists in any form are welcome. I also want to encourage working with each other, writers and artists together!

For characters: Any Oscar Isaac or Pedro Pascal character has to at least be in the relationship. Other characters in universes can be done, such as FishBen.

Reader can be anyone, just properly tag! If you want to come out to Marc Spector as bisexual, do it!!! If you want Joel to take care of you after top surgery, do it!

YOU DO NOT NEED TO BE QUEER TO PARTICIPATE!

However! Please do your research if writing or drawing an identity not yours. There are trans, nonbinary, gay, lebian etc bloggers all over tumblr who write about their experience, please divert to first person testimonies rather than assumptions.

What?

A few rules

MUST contain more than male character x fem!reader. Male character x fem!reader x male character does not count unless the two male characters are romantically or sexually involved or one or the reader is trans. Any Q's, dm me!

This is not a dark event. I'm not going to be policing the content matter but I really want to primarily focus on the pride. However, as a bisexual, gender non-conforming person I know a lot of pain can still be involved. What we are not doing is suicide, death, self-harm, or non consensual activity. If you have questions or would like to make a case for something, just dm me!

This is not inherently NSFW, but there is absolutely NSFW allowed. Always tag everything properly.

The usual no's like bestiality, incest, underage nsfw etc

As far as minor characters, SFW MINOR CHARACTERS IS ALLOWED. You can write or draw lgbt themes because being LGBT is not inherently sexual. For example, teenage Santi coming out as trans to Frankie or your own version of Ellie and Joel's talk about Ellie and Dina kiss. That being said, I'd prefer to reserve this to teens. Again, any questions or ideas that don' quite fit into parameters, just ask!

As always, I am allowed to use my discretion. If I do not want to include something, I won't. However, I know that there are rifts in the fandom. I won't be excluding you out of personal bias. As long as I don't have you blocked and you haven't plagerized or done something really bad to people, you'll be included. I'm not letting petty beefs get in the way. Harmful actions will, however. I need to protect my peace and keep

NO REAL PERSON FANFICTION. Do not write about Oscar Isaac or Pedro pascal being gay or trans and do not make any assumptions about their sexuality or gender identity. Oscar is happily married to a woman and Pedro has expressed his sexuality is like that of Oberyn Martell but has not elaborated much further, nor should he have to. Just leave ‘em be. You can speculate elsewhere but that’s not what this event is for.

How?

Simply tag me, @romanarose and use the #OscarPedroPrideEvent2024 please please please use BOTH so it's easier for me to find!!!

When the event is over, much like DDD I will compiled them into a masterlist and posted. This is a chance for every blog, big and small, to get a moment in the sun and to share each others works! Remember, reblogging, comments, and interacting is what makes this a community! I want to create an environment that is welcoming and we all help each other.

Please feel free to reach out to me for any questions or clarification!

However, if you go issues with me writing men kissing, chracters being trans, queer readers etc, I'm not really open to debate.

~A nonbinary bisexual <3

[rosesocietyy]

It'll never stop being funny how people can see something in fiction and recognize it's wrong but for some reason, can't seem to translate that to real life and see how those same things are reflected in their behavior.

y'all watch episode 2, you see Louis face horrific macro aggressions while trying to conduct simple business, you watch him rightfully get angry, you cheer when he kills the man for what is agreed to be a blatant display of racism. you watch him then explain to lestat what the man did and why he reacted the way he did.

and you clutch your pearls when lestat is dismissive, disregarding louis' struggles and calling him confusing, that he's too dramatic and he needs to get over the racism he faces everyday because they just can't keep having this argument about their differences lestat is tired of it! you question how he can be so flippant to a very serious issue that he previously claimed to care about.

But then you come on this tag, you see black people, frustrated and exhausted, calling out the racism they face, explain how harrowing it is, how isolating and sinister it is, and you roll your eyes, dismiss it and call it "fandom drama", we're overreacting and we should drop it already because we can't keep having this "discourse" over and over again, the carousel comes round again and you're tired of it!

I simply have to laugh

[jiminrings]

478 phase 3 part two (sneak peeks!! :D)

sneak peek 01

You have the terrifying idea in the back of your head, locked and loaded for anyone (read: Jungkook) to see if they take the additional second to ask you, that you’ll have to suffer all over again; that you’ll have to establish an ultimatum with a time limit of sorts, just so you can nullify the vacancy in you by pushing Jungkook away again.

Even now, a part of you wonders about Sora. 

She’s no longer a part of your husband’s life, for good this time, yet she occupies your mind every once in a while as if she’s a bad meal on a bad day you have to stomach over and over again. You want to vomit her out completely and rid yourself of the taste of being inferior to who came before you, and yet, she lingers like a stray who knows its home.

You wonder if she’s happy with her life and how it turned out, even if Jungkook’s no longer in it despite being each other’s first for everything. You wonder if she ever thinks about Jungkook whenever it’s April 23 or when she walks past tent bars; if she’s ever married now and has a family like you and her first love do.

You wonder about Sora from time to time because if Jungkook really loved her, you fear that a little bit of it would always linger.

In the same way that you had really loved a multitude of things growing up, little bits of them would always linger even if you’ve sworn off them. 

Your old obsession with tiny bottles of perfume you could only buy from boutiques (and never from malls) resurfaces whenever you visit your parents and magically, they always have a box filled up with your childhood shirts they’ve spared for Hwayoung to wear, imbued with a scent you can place to a memory, but not replicate.

The old fixation you had on patchwork blankets lingers whenever you head to the stockroom to store a PR package you could justify keeping for future purposes, only to see the unopened stacks of shirts you’ve gotten from numerous workshops, countries, and tapings as mementos throughout the years. They sit there in the dust, waiting patiently for you to take notice, but you avert your eyes as to not start a project you can’t bring yourself to finish.

The old liking you had towards the color orange stains on your fingers whenever you peel tangerines for Hwayoung, training a keen eye on her as she holds it for herself while slicing the portions you have at hand for her to eat safely. 

You wonder about Sora and if she ever holds the regret of letting go of Jungkook for someone like you.

You wonder if Jungkook’s love for her, although dissolved and voided already, lingers through the existence of Eunsu — someone who’s much, much different than you, just like Sora was.

Love is not supposed to feel heavy and you stand by it, because holding Hwayoung while carrying the backpack that’s meant to sustain the both of you in a foreign country, just because you don’t want any excess baggage as you surprise Jungkook out of nowhere, has never felt lighter in your heart.

Love is not supposed to feel heavy, even if you wonder why the door to Jungkook’s hotel room is open by itself without needing a key.

Love is not supposed to feel heavy, even if you meet several pairs of eyes that either locks or avoids your own, all for a multitude of reasons. 

“Jungkook,” you whisper, pupils shaking as you instinctively turn Hwayoung’s head away from the sight before you. “What’s going on?”

.

.

.

sneak peek 02

You know it’s going to come eventually.

You know the telltale dread that fills you up when something far bigger and beyond you is on its path to overtake you. The articles, the scrutiny, and the discourses haven’t even entered the stage yet you already feel sick because this time, it’s not only your name that’s going to be dragged into a situation you never thought would happen.

It’s also your daughter’s.

“We need to talk about Hwayoung,” you approach Jungkook as soon as you come home after your overtime, stilling in your tracks when you see Hwayoung sleeping in her pen.

Jungkook’s eyes linger on her before looking at you properly this time, the knot on his throat loosening at the prospect of what’s been bothering his mind repeatedly, but with the promise of a solution that he hasn’t arrived at, yet is bound to hurt him nonetheless.

“I was thinking the same thing.”

You sit on the far end of the baby blue floor couch as if you and Jungkook don’t share a home together.

“We look okay to her now but still,” you pause, looking down on your feet that are bruising from the heels you’ve been filming with all day and night. “I don’t want to put her in the middle of… everything that thisis.”

Jungkook nods, not only because he understands, but because he’s aware of everything, all the way from the guilt of being a husband to the guilt of being a dad. 

“She’s bound to ask questions too, and even if she’s not asking them now, I feel bad having to keep her in the dark.”

“She’s still young, Jungkook. I never thought I’d say this, but I mean,” you sigh, shrugging defeatedly as you try to look for the right words. “If we keep including her in situations that she shouldn’t be a part of, we’re only bringing her closer to harm. For all we know, someone somewhere has a picture of her during the trip.”

“I-I tried my best. I moved as fast as I-…”

“I know. I also tried my best when we took the trip to you,” you exhale heavily, trying to wrap your head around the complexity of the past week alone; you can’t even understand why you pushed yourself to go back to work immediately after going back home. “I’m not saying that Hwayoung’s known already. I’m just considering the possibility because we could never be too sure.”

Jungkook knows you’re trying to get rid of the guilt that forms in him for that matter, but for everything else, he knows better than to assume of you.

“Do you…” he swallows. “Do you also think that Hwayoung needs a breather from us? Not the other way around, of course, but you know-…”

“I know what you mean,” you nod your head, the guilt of being a mom to a Hwayoung coming easily these days. “It’ll be good for her to be around other people. To be away from what we have going on.”

You and Jungkook share a guilt that’s only unique to having Hwayoung under your circumstances, and it’s a burden you want to get rid of without ever hurting her in the process.

“We can’t have my parents babysit. They read me easily and I don’t want them to know,” you confide, making your husband hang his head in shame even if it wasn’t your intention.

“My parents can’t either. They went on a cruise.”

“I don’t trust nannies,” you add, making Jungkook nod deliberately.

“Who can we trust then?” he sighs, rubbing his hand all over his face as he tries to scour his brain for people. “Who do we have in our lives that Hwayoung trusts too?”

Your head tilts after a few seconds in realization, and Jungkook’s mind drifts to his daughter’s godfather whether he likes it or not.

You and your husband have the same idea in mind, with one being less fond of it than the other.

“I’ll call Yoongi.”

.

.

.

dun dun DUNNNNNN :O wanna read chapter two + intermission 02, get early access to the finale when it drops, and read hundredssss of exclusive works?? u can head to my patreon :D !!!

also to get ahead of questions: chapter two, intermission 02, and the finale WILL also be up on tumblr!!! it's just that patreon citizens get early access to general fics (aka fics like 478 that are both posted on tumblr and patreon) + exclusive pieces :-)

++ if you're wondering about the posting schedule here on tumblr, i do it with a lag!! as soon as i post the finale on patreon, i'll be posting part two here ☝️🤓

[possiblyunhinged]

I’m sorry, but you can’t remove the context of class from any discourse about the riots in Southport last night. To remove it is to remove any desire to understand what is happening, and without understanding, there will be no resolution.

Working-class, disenfranchised men are being exploited by the likes of Tate, Robinson, and Farage and are galvanised into ‘righteous’ anger.

There’s nothing righteous about rage based on fallacy. I doubt any of these men could explain why they were there beyond little soundbites regurgitated into their mouths by Tate and co.

'We WaNt OuR cOuNtRy BaCk'... screamed by men whose country never has given two shits about them and will guzzle on any privately educated men who tell them what they want to hear... Free Thinkers who happen to all think the exact same...

The men last night throwing bricks at the police with alcohol in their hands were not mourning children. They are not concerned about the safety of women. They are scared little boys attempting to disguise themselves as men. They have no purpose, and I don’t say that to be cruel, but it’s obvious.

If a middle-class person were saying this, maybe I’d have an issue with it. However, we won’t fix this level of disenfranchisement by pretending that class isn’t the ruling factor in what is happening—and fundamentally, how working-class people are treated.

I grew up thinking that working-class people had each other’s backs and looked after those in need. The women who lived around me were the most selfless people I’ve ever met. It’s embarrassing to see what’s happening and how cruel and empty people are becoming. Immune to facts. Immune to others’ suffering.

Until the government actually makes changes to people’s quality of life, situations like this are going to get worse. And frankly, while I understand the responses from political figures, only speaking to these groups of people when things like this happen isn’t helpful.

Robinson, Tate, and Farage fill the silence that the government maintains towards working-class people.

Yet again, I know some will say, ‘No excuse’… Okay then, let’s remove context from everything and never try to understand why these things happen. Frankly, I’d like to live in a society capable of change and reason, not one more concerned with groups fighting to see who is the most virtuous.

Taylor Swift fans have raised over 200k for Alder Hey while these 'men' nurse a hangover.

[nalyra-dreaming]

This will be my last post about this. I’m honestly not trying to argue with you, but I offer a different perspective. I admit my use of the word token was wrong. However, my message is the same. You were the one using Ncuti’s nomination as an example of no racism. I’m simply saying no, it’s not.

To begin with, Ncuti should not have been brought into the discussion. His nomination should have no bearing on Jacob being nominated. It allows the nomination committee to do exactly what you did. See, there’s no racism. We nominated a Black person. Why are you cheering because one Black performer was nominated in a category or because Black performers were nominated at all? That is invalidating. If more than one Black actor in a category deserves to be nominated, do it. You can objectively say they both didn’t deserve it, but don’t use one as an example of anti-racism. That is what makes it tokenism.

No, I wasn't using "only" Ncuti's nomination as an "example".

I pointed out that there were many more nominations.

These were my words on the post that triggered this:

"The way people have screamed racism over this because their faves weren’t on that list while Ncuti Gatwa is right there… while Shanola Hampton is right there... (and so on) well."

Maybe I should have made clear that I see the whole list as nominations, and maybe you should have made clear in the first ask that you only meant the first category. We could have gone over this a bit more nuanced then, but my question remains the same: while I get why you are disappointed, and I get the stance of "only one" black person... why do you devalue Ncuti's nomination like that?

I am not "cheering" because a black actor was nominated, I was cheering because Ncuti does a great job with the Doctor, and because I was happy for him. (Also I didn't even "cheer", lol, I just pointed out.)

Hiroyuki Sanada also did an amazing job on Shõgun.

Award shows have limited lists. For Critic's Choice it seems to be six slots.

They - not me! - nominated the ones they thought deserved it. You obviously see that differently, and so do I (!).

And can I just say, I have seen all except "The Diplomat", and while "The Old Man" was... interesting, and while I love Jeff Bridges - I would have given his slot to Jacob. Like, immediately.

But all the shows and actors on that list did incredible performances.

I would not want to be the one to choose.

You say I used "one as an example for anti-racism" - that isn't true either. I commented on the things I have seen on here, on twitter, on IG of people yelling at AMC that Jacob, Assad and Delainey are not nominated - but "the white man is" (their words, not mine) - on an ask that was commenting on the same. I'm sure you've seen posts on this. That is what I meant by "screaming". The rest... came when you came in upset about another's ask. Again, which I can understand. And I get the bitterness about the missing nomination, too. But please don't try to shift the blame on this to me, or try to put words into my mouth.

Anons I can only react to, and I am the only one putting my proverbial face to it (and I did note you did not come off anon once more...) - if you use things yourself like "token black" then that is reacted to in the context I have, which is... anonymous.

Of course awards shows and nominations have a long tradition of bias. Maybe that even played into it all here as well. But a lot of people conflated the issue to the seemingly obvious answer of "it must be racism", invalidating Sam's work in the process (as well), and then a lot jumped on the chance to hate on him.

And I have watched that, unfortunately unsurprised.

Next season, I fear it will be "they pushed the black actor back in favor of the white one" discourse, because that shift will come. It's in the books, they are doing the books. It's already been stated, too. Rolin literally has said that Lestat will take over, that Jacob will take over the supporting role. If you want to read it, here:

So, again, and thank you for reaching out, and more calmly, too :), but please don't put words into my mouth, nor surmise what I supposedly mean.

And, like, I would never say they didn't deserve it??? Where does that come from? I have said, again and again, that everyone on this show is amazing, and should get all the awards.

But they won't. As also said before, we're lucky if we get some.

And IWTV being nominated for best drama is a big win for the show already, no matter if they win or not (and I suspect Shõgun will win).

But the visibility is now there.

And that is AMAZING.

[shutupineedtothink]

More ep 8 + 9 thoughts, in no particular order:

Rio looks at Agatha the way Agatha looks at other people when they say something angry or misunderstood or untrue about her — mainly, hurt. It’s fine, I’m fine. By not accepting her nature, Agatha’s doing the exact same thing to Rio that people have been doing to her for centuries and if that ain’t trauma i don’t know what is.

I’ve heard people say it was out of character for Rio to go all evil witch in ep 8, but I think it was a choice. She was so hurt by the deal Agatha wanted from her to never see her again, she said you know what, fine. You think I’m evil? I’ll be evil. Let’s play. But even as she puts on this show she’s saying things like I’m the natural order of all things and you love me, and why don’t you want me? And again, this is an Agatha move. Putting on the show of the evil witch to hide her pain underneath. Calls back to ep 1 too, when she says I can’t kill you, but I can make you wish you were dead.

I tend to kill my coven members. So do I. — That boy and Agatha are mirrors what did I tell you. 🙌🏼

I still can’t quite wrap my head around what she was thinking when she tried to give him up to Rio. Did she see him start to turn himself in and know that that’s what Rio needed him to do, so she changed to her evil side to make him second guess himself? Or did she genuinely think screw this in that moment and then changed her mind? I don’t know, and I don’t think we’re supposed to know, and that’s really interesting actually.

And Billy! Basically manipulates her into sacrificing herself for him using Nicky! My dude you really aren’t that nice. In that sense… he really got all of them killed.

I say more about this in my general show overview post which is coming soon, but once I was able to let go of where I thought Agatha should go as a character, I realized a couple things: a) her journey isn’t over, so this wasn’t supposed to feel like a complete arc and b) I think the point of her character is that you just can’t pin her down in one category or another. She’s not fully evil, she’s definitely not good but she can make good choices, she’s not a complete villain but she’s not a hero or anti-hero either. She’s truly unique in the MCU in that sense. And interestingly, it seems like Billy is going in a similar direction. We’ll see.

So Agatha is the “maiden mother crone” of the last episode right? We’ve now seen her in all three stages, she was the mother up until she died and now is the crone as a ghost playing the Guide to Billy. I’m gonna go with that.

There’s a .2 second look of pain on Agatha’s face when Rio tells her Lilia is dead. That’s when she found out. She does care about them, she’s just definitely not going to show it in front of anyone else.

Lots of great line repetitions in these last two eps (covenless witch, get used to this feeling, etc), but one I could have used again was Rio’s “te veo” — she does say the line about watching Agatha just as closely as you watch everyone else, which was great. But idk I wanted that to come back one more time.

See my previous post for my Nicky thoughts but it seems like the more discourse comes out the more we all agree that is Rio’s child just as much as Agatha’s. The question then becomes, was he just created from their love and magic, or for some other reason? Personally I would love to see more play out with Nicky and him possibly being “a demon, or an agent of Mephisto” and that’s why Agatha can’t face him. She needed more time to figure out how to change his fate but she couldn’t. It’s almost a Bucky/winter soldier situation, but instead of hydra it’s literally the Marvel god of the underworld controlling him. There’s a movie in there somewhere for sure. (MCU witch movie??)

The music banged in these eps especially the choral opening to ep 9, so cool.

Am I the only one wondering why Agatha is RunNInG when she’s in labor? Like where’s she going, who’s she running from? Just an interesting opening.

It’s Agatha All Along in several ways: Agatha (and Nicky) originated the ballad, Agatha used the ballad to kill witches for centuries, she was telling the truth all along about the road not existing, she was the one who bound Jen, and she knew all along it was Billy who made the road. Not exactly the character transformation I was gunning for, but I see the vision now.

The Peggy Carter cosplay I live 🤌

I still don’t think Agatha outright intentionally killed Alice. I still think she either genuinely didn’t have control in that moment, or Billy subconsciously made her do it to make her the villain. (Edit, Jac basically confirmed option 1)

I LOVE that she’s a conwoman. It makes so much sense for her character and even in a more genuinely evil context I love a con.

Agatha says she was going to kill them in her basement on day 1, but Lilia stopped them. If they didn’t attack her, would she have found another way to take their power? Idk but it seems more to me like she’s just trying to make Billy feel better.

I’m itching for more, but I do love the emotional moment between them in the basement at the end. Agatha lets just a little bit of her true feelings peek through, and Billy gets a little perspective as well.

Ok, I’ve now listened to the full 3.5 hour House of R pod on the finale, including their interview with Jac Schaeffer, and she confirmed a lot of my thoughts here so. Nice.

OMG Jac said this thing about the Road being Agatha’s lie that Billy made real and I got CHILLS

I’m expecting some baller fan edits for this show now that it’s over absolutely can’t wait

I could probably say more, and if I think of more stuff I’ll add it in comments. But also look out for that full show review post.

[scoobydoodean]

Looking at your recent posts/reblogs has reminded me of how much I hate the conversation between Dean and Bobby at the beginning of 4.22 when Dean is trying to deal with the fact that Sam has chosen to trust Ruby instead of him, when Dean can see that he’s obviously being manipulated, and, in response, Bobby just says

You stupid, stupid son of a bitch! Well, boo hoo, I am so sorry your feelings are hurt, princess! Are you under the impression that family's supposed to make you feel good?! Bake you an apple pie, maybe? They're supposed to make you miserable! That's why they're family!

and I feel like that line just summarizes how so many people view Dean both in the show & in discourse about it: that whenever he’s upset by something someone does, he’s being overdramatic, and the tension it creates is his fault for not just accepting that his loved ones will make him miserable.

(& the context of the quote is kind of the perfect example of this because Dean has spent the whole season trying to deal with his own trauma from hell & the fact that the angels won’t leave him alone while also continually giving Sam chances to be upfront about what’s going on with him and trying to warn him that Ruby is manipulating him into doing what she wants, and when that tension finally breaks because Sam refuses to believe—or even consider—any of Dean’s suspicions about Ruby, Dean is basically told by Bobby that he should just let it go)

I agree with you—and that speech is absolute trash.

To frame Bobby's reaction here a little, he and Dean have some conversations in 4.21 and 4.22 that I think leave Bobby pretty unsettled. I think his emotional reaction is driven by that.

In 4.21, Dean and Bobby don't see things the same way when it comes to Sam's demon blood detox and they also disagree on Dean intending to sacrifice himself by signing himself over to the angels to protect Sam. So I'd say leading into 4.22, Bobby is already apprehensive about Sam and Dean both being killed. We know he didn't weather Dean's death at the end of season 3 well.

In 4.22, right before Bobby blows up at him, Dean is also jumping to some conclusions about his relationship with Sam that are pretty extreme.

DEAN No, damnit! No. I gotta face the facts. Sam never wanted part of this family. He hated this life growing up. Ran away to Stanford first chance he got. Now it's like déjà vu all over again. Well, I am sick and tired of chasing him. Screw him, he can do what he wants. BOBBY You don't mean that. DEAN Yes I do, Bobby. Sam's gone. He's gone. I'm not even sure if he's still my brother anymore. If he ever was.

I think Dean having to work through thoughts like this is understandable given probably less than 24 hours ago, Sam was strangling him unconscious in absolutely seething rage, had spent the entirety of the season lying to Dean and then getting indignant when Dean caught on, and reiterated the incredibly damaging things he said about Dean's hell trauma from 4.14. At the same time, I don't think Dean's thinking straight. Sam's motivations in the demon blood arc are incredibly multi-faceted... but hating hunting or their family simply is not part of this situation. This is made most clear to us just a couple episodes before in 4.19 (where Sam tries to push Adam into hunting and praises their father for teaching them to protect themselves—and this certainly didn't go unnoticed by Dean who confronted him about it). The bit about not wanting to hunt hasn't been true in years and won't resurface again for several more. It seems like Dean is just swirling through a lot of unaddressed hurt and misunderstandings from the past as he processes through the last year.

I think Dean saying he is done trying and he has tried and tried and tried and he is not doing it anymore is completely reasonable (he also has no idea yet that Lilith is the last seal), but I think when presented with the harm Bobby knows Sam is doing to his body by proceeding, thinking about "his boys", Bobby sees Sam as being in more imminent danger and wants Dean to reach out one last time to try and get through to him. Dean's rare show of verbal processing sets Bobby on edge and because he's human too, he says some stupid things. And if we're being real, Bobby is like this sometimes. I love Bobby to death, and in a general sense, I think he's very caring and supportive toward the people he loves. But when he himself is scared or angry or otherwise agitated, his patience evaporates and other people's vulnerability makes him upset. "The Curious Case of Dean Winchester" is a more sympathetic example of this. Bobby is angry and raw and deeply depressed, and Dean's well-meaning love and support—no matter how casually offered—is received like poison because it reminds him that he is not okay. The same sort of language about Dean being a pansy and how they're both going to "grow lady parts" shows up from Bobby in this episode.

I go back and forth on what Kripke was thinking when he wrote that dialogue, because the man is absolutely obsessed with the exploration of "toxic masculinity", which I think he's done well at times and extremely poorly at others, and I think Bobby's speech clearly embodies that interest. At the same time, I actually do think that, leading into season 5, there are some aspects to the fallout of Sam and Dean's season 4 conflict that are ultimately just very lazily brushed over and so I do think he bought the shit he had Bobby shoveling to an extent. Setting the content and tone aside, in a vacuum, the idea that Dean has to be the one to reach out—while exhausting—plays into the idea of Dean as the hero character. And when I say this, I don't mean that Sam isn't a hero. Sam is VERY much trying to be the unconventional hero this season. But Dean is often made to embody the concept of the righteous hero as an ideal, and part of being the righteous hero in season 4 means ultimately being... right (in more ways than you even knew) but another part of it is having to be the bigger person. Your wrath has to be tempered by love. We could go further down this rabbithole as far as themes and meta narrative, but none of this, from a human perspective, makes me like this speech any more. It just sucks balls.