#trans women are women. trans men are men. they have different experiences than cis women and men.

[drdemonprince]

Hi Devon, you’ve said in the past that you don’t mind being challenged so I guess I’m going to test that theory.

I totally agree with what you have said re trans men and cis men being Men but just arriving at that place from different routes.

You talk in your latest Insta post about women not seeing trans men as men as the problems with that.

However you in the past have talked openly about not feeling safe with cis women, and in fact have written a whole article on it. Outlining your past bad experiences with cis women. In that you clearly outlined a view that cis women specifically were more dangerous feeling to you, implying more so than trans women.

By your own account then are you not saying that you see trans women and cis woman as different and not as equal “women” because of your own experiences.

If that’s the case why can’t women differentiate between cis men and trans men and also say that they don’t feel safe with cis men because of past bad experiences but are ok with trans men because they haven’t had those same experiences.

For the record I’m a gay man so not coming at this from a defensive point of view but seeking to genuinely understand as there seems to be some possible cognitive dissonance or hypocrisy going on.

I say that with respect. I’m just wondering how you reconcile those two seemingly opposing views.

I think what you may be missing here is a differentiation between the descriptive and the prescriptive. The piece "I Don't Feel Safe Around Cis Women" is descriptive of my experience -- if you read through to the end, you'll see that I affirm that one day I hope that I will feel safe around cis women, and a lengthy exploration of the many many ways in which equating a person's identity to their safeness (or dangerousness) is unhelpful. That piece is far from an argument that cis women are categorically less safe than any other group, or a prescription that anyone's politics should be centered around the idea that cis women are uniquely dangerous. There is a very big difference between describing one's emotional feelings and making political pronouncements about how the world is or how people should be treated.

This same distinction applies in the opposite direction, too -- I think people have reasons for feeling uncomfortable or unsafe around cis men that obviously make a huge amount of sense. Frankly I don't care one way or another what somebody's feelings are. I have no intention of changing those. What I care about is a person's behavior, and the politics they advance -- and a politics that deems cis men as inherently more dangerous as individuals goes down a pretty troubling road when it's divorced from an understanding of structural power dynamics. The same thing is true of the cis woman discussion -- cis women aren't dangerous to me because they're women, or because of any innate quality to who they are; they're only more dangerous within a specific power differential. Similarly, cis men aren't all more dangerous to everyone who isn't a cis man -- we must take into account class, race, immigration status, ability level, and a number of other factors.

tldr; there's a big difference between someone feeling unsafe and someone having a politics that declares members of a group are actually inherently suspect, no matter the situation or their other positionalities.

[sciderman]

Sometimes i remember a comics moment i randomly came across somewhere, where Sam Wilson mentiones a musical and Steve Rodgers says he doesn't like musicals, to whitch Sam goes "Guess that means you really are straight" and even tho i don't care about Cap America or the Avengers, the moment stuck in me for that quote by Sam. And like....Sci, any ideas if straight men actually don't like musicals or is that bullshit?

actually i think i know more gay men who hate musicals than i know straight men who hate musicals. i've had a drag queen stop me point blank when i was about to sing a barbra streisand song, and i know so many gays who pointedly hate abba. so based on my experience i think the inverse is true. most of the straight men i know are kind of impartial about musicals, but gay men? hate.

my theory is that a lot of gay men don't want to fall into stereotypes, maybe. but thaaaaat's just a theory! a gay theory.

[bisexualseraphim]

Alright fine I’m gonna speak my mind.

My cis followers, listen up:

Being attracted to trans people is not inherently a fetish. The way you speak about trans people CAN be fetishistic, but 99% of the time when I see cis people calling out trans fetishism it’s literally just. Someone being really horny for a trans person. That’s not inherently fetishistic.

Sorry but it actually hurts me a little when I see cis people claim that a content creator is being fetishistic for drawing a trans guy with tits and a pussy, or for writing smut where a trans guy really enjoys using his pussy for sex, or God forbid said trans guy is fem. Trans people like that exist, you know. I myself have a pussy and fuck yes do I want people I’m in a relationship with to be attracted to it. And the same goes for many transfemmes who keep their natal parts, especially butch transfemmes.

Trans people are not a monolith. We don’t all hate our bodies or experience dysphoria or express our genders the same way. I swear to God cis people are all “allies” until a trans man is fem or a trans woman is butch or an enby isn’t androgynous or we actually enjoy our bodies or we have a kink or sexual fetish you don’t like.

Cis people: I know your hearts are in the right place and I appreciate that, but spouting “oh this content is fetishistic and Bad because trans men NEVER like their vaginas and are NEVER feminine” (or something equal to other trans people) is seriously not the allyship you think it is.

There is absolutely a conversation to be had about fetishising trans people — chasers in particular — but it’s quite a bit less black and white than hating certain FICTIONAL portrayals of trans people because these types of trans people exist in real life and we can see what you say about us.

I love my dick and my pussy (because I have both — are you aware we can have both?) but I saw a post today by someone I really like that actually made me feel kind of shit about myself because it was a cis person essentially saying that smut that describes my genitals in any particularly horny light is fetishistic and that really kind of hurt me. It made me feel like people think I’m undesirable due to my body only it was said in some backwards attempt to be an ally which is almost worse than deliberate transphobia lol.

I guess my point is: not all trans people’s feelings and experiences are universal. Call out obvious transphobia when you see it, yes, but please stop speaking for us about complex situations you just can’t fully understand unless you’re trans. Trans identities and experiences can be so much more complicated than what mainstream celebrities and articles will tell you and I just really need cis people to stop behaving as though the issues we face are a quick and easy fix. It never is. Sometimes the best allyship is to listen to how WE feel and take it into consideration instead of saying whatever you think we want you to say — because a lot of the time, we don’t.

[squidong]

should I remake my discourse vent blog lmao

[genuflecting]

conflating sexual orientation with genital preference is just so weird to me. I told someone I was gay last night and they asked if I was into dick or pussy, and it completely short circuited my brain as I tried to explain that it's about gender, not genitals. It feels like if instead of asking someone if they liked coffee or tea, asking if they liked opaque or clear hot beverages. Like, I like tea with milk and also without, and I like coffee with cream but also espresso, but not black coffee? And in that same way, if someone is just squicked out by tea with milk that's completely valid for them, but to then extrapolate their own experience outward and define a tea drinker as someone who doesn't like milk is both a logical fallacy and reductive of the human experience. Gender and sex is so much more complex than that and I can't fathom trying to reduce it down to such a false binary.

[ur-stepdad]

internalized transphobia is fucked up. i started transitioning 6 years ago and there's still shit i'm only now starting to accept about myself

[dootznbootz]

There's something so specifically infuriating when someone uses one of your experiences or your demographic in an argument, especially if said argument is about spreading hatred or is just so wrong. They "speak on behalf of the ___" to say such fucked shit.

"You're not thinking of the ___!"

"I literally am ___. You saying that adds nothing as you do not speak for me or for other ___. Shut up."

[corvidcall]

remember when the big discourse on here was cis people loudly telling other cis people that genderbends are inherently transphobic and if you do them you're The Bad Man

that was dumb lol

[vampire-core]

[id: the first image is a reply by @.demilypyro that reads: That doesnt sound very cis

the second image is a reply by @.homosexualmorelikehomiesexual that reads: respectfully adding to this in agreement with op: i think its true that no, it DOESNT sound very cis, but thats bc according to the very same gender system that sucks so much, anyone who disagrees or complains about it is Other, and i think thats......part of the exact problem op is talking abt..? so yeh idk. speaking as a trans person myself- op youre valid youre right and you should say it i support you go cis boy go

#this is what i call cis+ #youre cis but youve seen the void. the truth. and then you pulled back and went Ok Got It. Keeping My Gender Though #which i think is just as respectable. like amen #consciously opting into your assigned gender when you know you don’t actually have to..... #thats cis plus. cis prime. cis upgraded. you feel? /end]

I’m a cis man sure but i also wanna opt out of the gender binary. None of that shit is my fault or my responsibility and i don’t want any part of it

[drdemonprince]

hey, i respect the hell out of you! i love seeing your posts, and i have your book on my shelf. i think there is a lot of overlap between trans men and cis men, especially on the grounds of queerness where that is relevant

however, i cant help but feel like any time trans men say "this is specific to us," it gets taken in bad faith. i think there are some experiences trans men have that are specific to them

do you have thoughts on ways to articulate that difference without being "toxic"? i tend to just say 'transphobia' to describe such experiences, but sometimes it feels like any expression of "this is different for me" gets parsed as "im special." im not sure how to navigate that tension, other than trying to be verbally precise, but not everyone has that skillset or luxury.

i want trans men and cis men to find unity, i just also want trans men to feel like they can talk about their marginalization

btw for clarity i am not a trans man, but i am transmasculine so i feel like i have a horse in the race

I appreciate the good faith question, thanks for the message.

What are you referring to when you speak of unique transmasc experiences? I can't think of anything that doesn't fall under the banner of either "transphobia" or "misogyny, caused by transphobia," honestly. Obviously the content of the transphobia looks different for trans women and trans men, because they are different gender identities getting invalidated differently -- but it's still invalidation, entitlement to our bodies, cissexism, lack of healthcare access, and on and on.

If you could give me an example of what you have in mind when you say "this is different for me," I'll let you know what I think. My general reaction that idea is that if you haven't had a trans woman's experience, or a cis woman's experience, or even a cis queer man's experience, how would you know that they don't undergo similar things? Lots of cis women believe that lack of reproductive healthcare access is a uniquely cis women's problem, for instance, completely oblivious to the fact that trans men face even greater barriers to care, and trans women's reproductive needs aren't even considered by most women's clinics at all.

[busket]

the biggest tip i can say about trans inclusive language when discussing anatomy is to just say what you mean without trying to find a euphemism, and to be specific to the conversation that you're having. if you're having a conversation about childbirth, say "people who can give birth". not everyone who can give birth is a woman and not every woman can give birth (both trans and cis), so don't say "women" or "mothers" or "females", you don't even have to say like "womb haver" or whatever. "person who can give birth" is specific and clear if you're talking about childbirth.

if you're talking about penis and testes, just say that. "men" in that context is cis-centric. "amab genitals" means nothing, since trans women can have bottom surgery, and intersex people exist in all kinds of physical expressions of sex.

avoid sexualized terms like tits/boobs (use breasts) or dick, balls, etc. those terms take on a context that can make folks feel uncomfortable about their anatomy due to the sexual context. I feel uncomfortable when people try to be inclusive and say shit like "pussy haver" but if I'm reading a medical article about vaginas I'd much rather it be addressed to "people with vaginas" rather than "women"

the more we separate language of body parts from gender identities and actually start speaking frankly and respectfully about anatomy without acting like its some taboo, the better it will be for trans and intersex people. it can help cis people too. you can be a cis woman who doesn't have a womb, you can be a cis man who doesn't have penis or testes. imo this kind of language is inclusive not only for gender non-conforming people but everyone with a physical difference in their sex characteristics, due either to genetics or a lived experience!

[genderqueerdykes]

there really is a cultural pressure for transmascs & men to detransition, and it comes from all sides. it comes from the queer community too, not just terfs and cishet transphobes.

it took me a while to realize why transphobic people and transandrophobic queers utterly despise trans guys & mascs who are over the age of like 25- it's because it pisses them right off that we've resisted their attempts to make us detransition. it makes them so angry to see they were unable to groom that person into a life of self-shame and repression. it really seems like MOST people believe that trans men will just detransition eventually in life? people NEVER think about older trans men, only teenage trans boys and trans men in their very early twenties.

when i was involved with my local punk scene i was addressed with condescension, almost everyone around me didn't accept transmasculinity as a legitimate identity and thought that we would've transitioned by now in life. i encountered folks who would talk about transmasculinity with subtle disgust that made me feel like i was doing something wrong, and people who expressed overt disgust, saying in plain english that they were disgusted by breasts and vaginas because they were gay men. all along the way i was literally mocked for not having a penis, and one of my roommates started treating me differently once they found out i didn't have one (because they were attracted to me)

i've been on T for 9 years, and been out as a trans man for a bit longer than that, and i noticed as i've aged i've also attracted a lot of folks who have tried to deter me from identifying as a trans man, either through directly telling me that trans men are inherently dangerous, or by implying that women or another gender are safer, quieter, calmer, "less traumatizing to be around," etc. one of my exes told me they were terrified to date me (despite literally going out of their way to do so for over half a year) because they were scared i would be transphobic to them because i'm a transmasculine lesbian.

i received pressure from online friends to either detransition and become an intersex butch woman, or to something feminine adjacent or nonbinary. for years i dealt with a few friends who kept subtly hinting that i should stop identifying as a trans man or trans masc because of how awful transmascs are- going as far as to sending me screenshots of transmascs speaking, complaining about them and calling them whiny, annoying. talking about how all transmascs are entitled, how all transmascs take things too personally, how we complain too much, and so on.

people make no effort to make space for transmascs and men. i met 0 transmascs in my local punk community that i was able to stay in contact with. none. i met a few in passing but none that actually were introduced to me in a capacity where i could actually try to befriend them. it really felt like other punks in the scene were desperately trying to keep the transmascs apart at times. excuses were made as to why i couldn't hang out with other transmascs i liked, but i was constantly being forced to befriend transphobic cis gay men and transandrophobic transfemmes who outwardly expressed hatred and disgust of us. it really felt like it was on purpose... almost as if other members of this community wanted our attention, but never wanted us to give each other attention or a sense of community. like we were objects, not people to be included in the community for real. satellite friends, if you will.

i'll be honest with you. i was at my lowest at this point. i realized i wasn't just a trans man and that i'm a genderqueer person who experiences multiple genders, including womanhood and an "other" gender, which was great. however now i was being forced to completely stuff down being a man for the sake of other people. instead of folks telling me they'd rather not hang out with transmascs, folks rather just attempted to guilt me for identifying as such in the hopes i'd stop identifying that way. i was being told daily that trans men and mascs are inherently violent and terrible to be around. i was in discord servers where transmascs were being kicked constantly for getting even slightly upset about transandrophobia, or being unfairly targeted by staff.

it's violence, but nobody wants to call it that. i pulled myself out of there and am now able to contact other transmascs and trans men who are proud of who they are and have elevated me back into a headspace where it's okay to truly be myself. just keep in mind that if you feel like you're in that situation, you're not alone. people who attempt to groom others are often very subtle it's not always up front. they will start slipping in hateful sentiments very slowly and make you feel like maybe they're the ones who are actually right.

it feels good to be an almost 32 year old trans guy. there's nothing to be ashamed about there. people project their feelings on to my gender and that has nothing to do with me. it has nothing to do with you, either. people will just project on to you for whatever reason- hatred is usually the motivator there. if you encounter folks who keep trying to badger you out of identifying as your gender, no matter who you are, transmasc, transfemme, transneutral, trans anything- they are not good for you. they are not your friends. they do not accept you as you are and you deserve so much better.

[lesbianshepard]

There is no universal "AFAB experience" and there is no universal "AMAB experience" and cis people using these terms are often just using them as a way to misgender trans people but dress it up in a veneer of seemingly progressive language

i think we need to put a moratorium on cis people using "AFAB" and "AMAB." they're getting a bit too comfortable with it.

[xmimikyuusx]

Thinking of this post again in terms of how wildly people just cannot understand intersectionality and like. Im boggled every time I get a notif and peek and see More People have come along to say "how can a cis woman have privilege??? Cis women are not privileged" which like. You're totally right. Cis women aren't privileged, they have privilege, which is the privilege of being cisgender. No one IS privileged in terms of their identity, because identities have more layers than just "is privileged" "is oppressed". A trans woman can still have white privilege. An intersex person can still have able-bodied privilege. This should be baby steps here but apparently we need to go back because people can't fathom that a group that they see "as privileged" (men) might also experience oppression (being trans, a MOC, disabled, intersex, Jewish, a million different things that could intersect here)

I think it's a huge huge issue that people use privilege as a weapon to beat people with in leftist spaces to the point of abandoning reason. To wrap this around to the thing Im always talking about; Trans men don't have Cis male privilege because we are not cis. You cannot slot any and all men into "privileged" if you believe in the existence of intersectionality.

And using this perceived privilege to power jacket trans men and beat us into silence is the exact same thing terfs do to trans women constantly. You are perpetuating this violence with a borrowed weapon. This is not new. "You're a dangerous man exerting your privilege to invade women's spaces, you're not oppressed, you're pretending to be so you can speak over the real victims here." is rhetoric that should not be coming out of the mouth of any trans person with an iota of understanding of where this sentiment stemmed from.

[skys-archive]

I think in honor of pride month and also in general forever we should stop trying fit queer people into the identities we think they should call themselves.

And I know no one is going to see this because no one ever does but I'm going to talk about it anyway because this is important.

Bisexual doesn't mean you don't date trans people, it doesn't mean you like men and women, it doesn't mean you can't have a preference. Someone can identify as polysexual or bisexual or omnisexual and have no preference and you don't get to say that that means they're pansexual. Because no, if they don't identify as pansexual then they're not pansexual.

Transmasc doesn't mean you use he/him pronouns. It doesn't mean you identify as a man. Transfem doesn't mean you use she/her pronouns. It doesn't mean you identify as a woman. You can be nonbinary or genderqueer or agender or any gender that isn't binary and not use they/them pronouns. You can use any of those labels and still identify as a man or a woman. You can use different pronouns than is typically used for your birth sex and not consider yourself transgender. People can be gender non conforming and not he trans. People can be trans and not gender non conforming.

A trans man can be fem. A trans woman can be masc. Nonbinary people don't owe you androgyny. Intersex people don't owe you androgyny. Intersex people are people, they deserve way more attention than a way to one up transphobes. Intersex people face discrimination and body altering surgeries without their consent and then are only ever talked about to say "some cis women have penises" or "some people have an extra x chromosome" and then we never talk about the struggle they face as part of the queer community.

Asexuality and aromanticism is a spectrum. Some aces like sex, some aces are repulsed, some aces only experience sexual attraction to one person or once in their life, some aces need a deep emotional bond, some aces their attraction changes. Some aros change identities. Some aros are repulsed by romance unless it's a fictional character. Some aros have romantic feelings until they get to know someone. Some aros crave a romantic relationship but never have romantic feelings. You don't get to say someone isn't asexual or aromantic enough.

Asexuality and aromanticism is having a unique relationship with romance or sexual feelings and impulses. Someone who is transgender has a unique experience with gender. You don't get to decide that they don't have a unique experience. But guess what? You don't get to decide if they do either. Someone can have a unique experience and still not identify as asexual aromantic or transgender. You can cross dress and still fully feel like a man. You can use he/him pronouns as a cis women. You can have trauma around sex and not identify as asexual. You can never have a romantic relationship and not identify as aromantic.

You can have "contradicting" labels. I don't know as many of these because I don't personally identify as any but please fell welcome to add in reblogs. There are trans men lesbians and gay women. There are sex loving asexuals. I know there are others I just genuinely am not educated enough.

YOU DONT GET TO CHOOSE SOMEONES LABELS

ANYONE CAN EITHER IDENTIFY OR NOT IDENTIFY AS QUEER

Please feel welcome to add anything in reblogs. I'm sure there's things I've missed. I haven't talked about neopronouns I haven't talked enough about "contradicting" labels. I haven't talked about queer platonic relationships or kink or polyamory or enough about intersex people or pronouns vs gender. There's so much important things but at the end of the day it's just so important to not choose other people's labels.

[dumb-butch-syndrome]

I feel like you're ignoring my point? I'm not arguing that misogyny doesn't come from men - of course it does. I'm also not arguing that it's not a global phenomenon - of course it is. I'm saying the fact that there are counterexamples in pre-colonial societies is pretty strong evidence that aggression and dominance isn't biologically inherent to men. Which - and correct me if I'm wrong - was what you were implying in your original posts?

If the argument is just "patriarchy, when it arises, is primarily created and upheld by men" then I actually agree with you, but if it's "men are biologically predisposed to creating systems of oppression" then I disagree

idk how any woman can come out of an anthropology degree without having grown a new third eye about male nature