femme-masculine

[femme-masculine]

From what I can understand, @pusheen-the-radical has seen people use the tirf label when they believe males can face the same discrimination as females, which, I personally, would obviously disagree with too. I answered back to her post because all the people I've talked to who identify with the tirf or nuancefem label did not have this supposed opinion at all, hence I reblogged to challenge this idea.

1. Males have no place in feminism, especially not radical feminism

2. "Terfs" are trans inclusive, male exclusive

3. Females deserve female-only spaces without any males

4. GNC men sometimes experience misdirected misogyny: to fix this we need to focus on not having misogyny in the first place

Yep, that's what we believe in too.

Is this right? I think where radfems and "nuancefems" might differ is thinking dysphoria is a mental issue akin to eating disorders? I'm just confused, because if you agree that males have no place in feminism, what do you believe that makes you different from radfems? Is it the dysphoria/GNC bit?

Basically, yeah. Even not all "nuancefems" have the exact same opinions when it comes to gender dysphoria, which is kind of where the nuance comes in. Personally, I think that "terfs" are too black and white in their thinking for when it comes to gender/sex dysphoric individuals, and the dysphoria itself is a lot more complex than just "it's like an eating disorder".

That it why people have started using the tirf or nuancefem labels. They agree with the core of radical feminism; just not how gender dysphoria is talked about in the main community.

I've just realised the influx of 'tirfs' on here is bcs of Tiktok. They're so smarmy about having the "correct, nuancefem" opinion because they were raised (so to speak) on the clock app. Lol. Lmao, even. Good luck ig 🤗

[femme-masculine]

Wow, so I really wanted to have a civil discussion regarding this topic but it seems hopeless.

I didn't say it never happens; like you I was sharing my experiences with tirfs, which seem to differ a lot from yours. I am genuinely curious who would be saying that, and like you, I would be disagreeing with them.

this is my blog where i share my opinions, if you don’t like or agree with them, move the fuck along.

Your blog is public. Besides, how do we expect women's rights to advance if we completely ignore what people have to say? If people just moved along all the time, nothing would progress.

a feminine straight guy being mistaken as gay is literally in no way comparable to the male skinwalkers who try to pretend they’re women, and you yourself know why- because that straight man isn’t PRETENDING to be gay, or EXPECTING OTHERS to perceive him as or treat him as if he were gay. trans identified males literally do both. what the fuck is your point.

This ignores the context for which I was making the comparison. In no way was I saying trans women actually experience the hardship of those who are female, I was saying they can't "larp" abuse they receive for looking like one. I too completely disagree with the idea that we have the same experiences. We don't.

and thank you for the condescension, but i’m not actually stupid; i know that men who are perceived as feminine can experience homophobia or sometimes even misdirected misogyny. but why the fuck is that feminism’s or women’s problem?? you are literally no better than libfems screeching ‘intersectionality’ at the top of your lungs, meaning women have to solve everyone else’s problems before we’re even allowed to think about our own.

? I don't think it's feminism's problem either. I was just explaining what I personally observed from tirfs, which was exactly challenging the idea they actually believe cis women and trans women face the same experiences.

Men. Don’t. Belong. In. Feminism. End of. I say once again, for the slow ones in the back, there is no nuance to be had here. Males are male, no matter how efeminate, gay or otherwise, and their concerns, whatever they may be, ARE NOT THE CONCERNS OF WOMEN OR FEMINISM.

Males don't belong in feminism at all, I agree with this. My "nuance" comes from how I think we should treat gender dysphoric individuals, many of them which are female.

you think you’re coming off as ‘nuanced’ or very intelligent, but you’re just coming off as libfem stupid, someone who can’t grasp the basic fucking terminology involved- which is exactly what i said in my original comment about ‘tirfs’ so way to prove my point how none of this ever happens.

I am honestly not sure what this is in reference to.

‘radical’ means ‘the root of’. as in feminism that addresses the root cause of patriarchy, which is MALES HATING AND OPPRESSING FEMALES. take your watered down bullshit and get out of here, you don’t belong here.

So, we agree?

You are trying to push away women from radfem spaces who share the same basic opinions about radical feminism: wanting to eradicate male oppression of females.

There is not at a single point in my original post where I said, or even implied, that males of any kind belong in radical feminism.

I've just realised the influx of 'tirfs' on here is bcs of Tiktok. They're so smarmy about having the "correct, nuancefem" opinion because they were raised (so to speak) on the clock app. Lol. Lmao, even. Good luck ig 🤗

[femme-masculine]

Seems like you people have a false idea of what tirfs or nuancefems believe in.

radfeminism is for females. males are not females. no amount of cosmetic intervention or ‘lived experience’ (read: larping as) makes a male a female.

I have not seen a single tirf say that trans women are female. They just consider that with an outwardly female-like appearance, they may experience discrimination or abuse that is similar to misogyny, even if they don't consider it the same. Besides, truthful experiences in an individual is not "larping". A feminine straight boy may experience homophobia because of the association between being a gay man and being feminine. That doesn't mean he is "larping" as gay.

radfeminism has always included trans identified females also, so the claim that we’re ‘trans exclusionary’ has simply always been false

Even if radical feminism technically includes trans afab individuals, how can we blame them for feeling excluded when the radical feminist community shuns those trying to find solutions for their gender dysphoria? Of course, if you're infantilized, you are not going to feel included.

if you believe any male, however he may ‘identify’ should be included in female spaces or benefit from interventions designed for female health, safety and advancement, then you’re not a radfem.

Again, I have not seen a single tirf say born-female individuals are not entitled to female-only spaces. I would be curious to know where you have seen a "tirf" say that. Even if you've seen this once, it is not fair to paint all those who use the "tirf" or "nuancefem" to describe themselves as thinking this; you would be no better than a trans activist saying terfs are all misogynist conservatives because a Trump-voting woman misuses "terf" to label herself for being gender critical.

I've just realised the influx of 'tirfs' on here is bcs of Tiktok. They're so smarmy about having the "correct, nuancefem" opinion because they were raised (so to speak) on the clock app. Lol. Lmao, even. Good luck ig 🤗