#trans men are men obviously and should be looked at the same way

[c00and]

Uncertain flame of hope I found

Will you lead me back on the right track?

uncensored version under the cut

[dont-offend-the-bees]

Fuck I hate being an adult. I need a more adult adult to help with the volatile emotional situation.

[perilegs]

i pass pretty much all the time but hm. ive heard interesting stuff from drunk ppl i know who dont know im trans

[spaghettioverdose]

Sure maybe you wanna say that the "suck my dick and stop being a baeddel" copypasta anons were originally sent by a couple of trolls or whatever but the amount of people I see defending them is very clear fucking proof that the sentiment exists. There is a lot of preaching about trans unity right now, but as is often the case, if someone demands unity while refusing to do even the bare minimum for you (in this case disavowing the horrifyingly misogynistic posts and calling out some of the people who maintain such positions instead of defending them) and only call for unity when you speak out against their abuse, then they're not looking for unity. They want you to shut the fuck up. You never see these same people calling for unity when there's a harassment campaign against trans women. You don't see them defending trans women when our words are misinterpreted in as bad of a way as possible.

And before someone accuses me of being a baeddel terf or whatever: I am not saying we need some kind of transfem separatist movement or that trans unity is impossible or undesirable. I am not saying that transmascs are doomed to be violent misogynists. I do have some very nice transmasc mutuals (all of which uncoincidentally are communists lol) who I do appreciate and feel actual solidarity with because they aren't transmisogynists and because I can expect them to have the backs of the transfem community whe the newest transmisogynistic harassment campaign starts on this dogshit website.

A growing problem on here is the continuous dilution and rejection of feminism and even some of the most basic feminist positions in favour of positions that would be perfectly at home in a 2016 antifeminist mra youtuber's videos if it wasn't for the pseudo-progressive tone of the message. It is what has lead to "you should shut up about transmisogyny and suck my dick", a position championed by "genderpunks" and transandrophobia truthers. The drift from understanding the basic premise that we live in a patriarchal and misogynist society to "well, men have it bad too, so who's to say what the real gender dynamics are like" and even "men have it bad too, specifically because they are men" has erased a lot of progress on this website and allowed this kind of thing to happen.

The way to close the gap and achieve trans unity is not to ask for silence from trans women speaking against the abuse done to us or to pretend that gender dynamics do not exist politically, but to take steps towards solidarity with us and speak out against transmisogynists and to push back against antifeminist rhetoric.

This post, obviously is aimed at people who are genuinely interested in trans unity, not people who scold others about trans unity whenever trans women have a problem with the way we are treated.

[neechees]

Hi! You don't have to answer this if you don't want to, that's totally fine! But you talking about Orville Peck's appropriation of indigenous culture with his fashion choices made me realize that I had never considered that there might be some aspects of "cowboy clothes" that white ppl shouldn't wear and that was super wrong of me. Again, you totally don't have to answer this, but I was just wondering what ways a white person could wear "cowboy clothes" in a manner that wasn't disrespectful? Or perhaps, should we not wear them at all? I can't afford T yet, but when I can finally get it I was planning on getting a cowboy outfit to embrace my trans mascness, but if that would be wrong of me I can scrap that plan no problem!

Ehhh again this is actually SUPER HARD to answer because almost everything about cowboy fashion & the cowboy "aesthetics" are lifted directly from Native American fashion and culture, either because a lot of cowboys back in the day were Native American themselves (including Afro-Natives & Indigenous Mexican vaqueros) or they were White & just kinda. stole the look from the Native cowboys due to a number of factors.

If you google "cowboy jewelry" the first thing that comes up is silverwork & belts & turquoise jewelry, which is taken from Navajo metalwork. Fringed leather clothing? Again, many Native tribes did that (& in some tribes the fringes could mean something, its not just for looks), most popularily with vests, jackets, and pants. A lot if the leather jackets were a result of Native women just sewing their clothes the same but in a European styled cut. Compare this "cowboy" look below to a Lakota war shirt: both have hair embellishments dangling from the arms.

Studded belts? Inspired by Cheyenne mirror belts, which often also have metal studs in them & you'll still see Native pow wow dancers have this in their regalia. Floral vests? A lot of the inspiration comes from Plains floral beadwork. Geometric patterns and blankets? Came from Southwest or Mexican Native American blankets & designs, ask any Navajo weaver & they'll tell you the same. Feathers in cowboy hats? Who else is famous for wearing feathers on their heads--? Native Americans. The look is still popular with older Native men.

Hell, if you visit this site that sells Western/cowboy fashion, you'll see a SHITTON of appropriation going on, taking Native imagery & designs, including one taken from Native American ledger art, all on White models.

The appropriation of Native culture and fashion in the cowboy/western sphere is ongoing, and the influence that Native fashion & culture has in Western/cowboy fashion as it is is absolutely MASSIVE. I once said in another post that the cowboy/western aesthetic essentially belongs to Native Americans, Latines (especially Mexicans), and Black people. And the history of White cowboys has been one largely of colonialism, racism, and displacement of Indigenous peoples, and the masculinity associated with White cowboys especially is also steeped into racism & American patriotism (think John Wayne. There's a reason he's an American icon who played cowboys & killing Indians in films.). I think the only thing that isn't influenced from either appropriation or colonization is like, jeans. Even the style of cowboy boots themselves and potentially chaps were influenced from vaqueros.

So if you're White I'm not sure that'd exactly be a good route to take because trying to seperate Indigenous elements from this fashion/look (nevermind the problematic history of White cowboys) is almost impossible. Obviously I can't force you to do anything, but honestly if I were you, I'd try a different direction, because otherwise I think you'll find trying to do this will be very hard.

[ugly-anarchist]

Alright, anon, I'm not posting your messages in 3 different posts so lets just break this down here

[Indented text is the anon message. This is going to be long as hell]

butch women and trans men are not oppressed for being masculine, they’re oppressed for being gender nonconforming females (not saying trans men are women, just stating how a patriarchal society sees them).

So, firstly, the thing I'm talking about isn't actually oppression on a systemic level. You're talking about how non-queer society sees us, I'm talking about how other queer people treat us. Butch lesbians have been pushed out of sapphic spaces for a loooong time. Butch lesbians are seen as scary, mean, violent, and inherently abusive within queer spaces. Which stems from a demonization of masculinity. I should know this. I identified as a butch bisexual sapphic for years. I know what this feels like. I was once told that people with "high T levels" are more likely to be abusive, which includes me because I'm intersex and have naturally high T.

Secondly, maybe don't try to define trans men's oppression for them? I'm not a trans guy either but I experience a lot of the same bullshit from society that they do and it's not just "being a gender non-conforming female" it's a lot more complex than that. And also just, in general, a very weird way to say it.

i’ve never heard a masc cis gay man complain about being welcome or not in queer spaces, to the point in which feminine cis gay men have complained about them writing “no sissies, masc4masc” in their bio on dating apps.

I have. I've heard plenty of stories about masc gay men and specifically bi men in queer spaces feeling very unwelcome because they were being treated like a threat. And some gay men being transphobic (because s*ssy is a transmisogynistic slur in this case) or having a preference for other mascs also isn't indicative of mascs being treated well?

Like I know a lot of butch4butches that have that preference specifically because they feel unwelcome or are treated badly by femmes. I don't know how you personally not hearing about it or what some people put on their dating profile proves here.

Also your complete lack of acknowledgement of bi men in this makes me doubt even more that your perspective on this is a valid one because that tells me you either don't know any bi men or you ignore them to such an extent that you forgot they existed.

claiming misandry or anti-masculinity exists is the same as saying that heterophobia exists because straight trans people are treated like shit.

Never said that misandry on its own exists, don't know where you got that.

People are treated like shit based on the fact that they are masc all the time. That is a thing that happens. I have experienced it, I've heard so many stories from other queer people who experience it. I don't know how saying "no you don't, I'm gonna tell you what you really experience" is at all an alright thing to do.

it’s not heterophobia, it’s transphobia/homophobia. in the same way that masc afab people being treated terribly is misogyny and homophobia, and has literally zero to do with misandry/“anti-masculinity”. if anti-masculinity or misandry existed, even straight cis heterosexual men would suffer from it.

So, like, I'm talking about anti-masculinity in the queer community. "If this is true here then it must be true with this different thing" is a really bad argument because you could use that to invalidate anything that is true.

For example: The definition of racism is "prejudice based on race" which technically that definition doesn't exclude white people but you don't see anyone arguing "if racism existed, even white people would suffer from it" or trying to say it's not really about race just to exclude white people. Like, obviously you can't be racist to white people and anyone who claims you can be is just making a bad-faith argument. I am looking pointedly at you when I say that, btw.

also, a lot of radfems are gender nonconforming women/butches and literally campaign for women to drop conformity to the patriarchal concept of femininity. gender critical conservatives are not radical feminists and y’all need to stop conflating the two because no matter what jk rowling says, in practice and in theory, they have very little to do with one another (and hate each other, at that).

There's actually two sides of the "radfem" spectrum and they're both just as bad. There's the ones who hate gender non-conforming women, specifically the ones who go on HRT, and claim they're gender traitors. And then there's the ones which you describe who usually shame women for liking feminine things. Both their beliefs usually go against the whole purpose of gender-nonconformity which is to be yourself and do what makes you happy, society be damned. People who are truly GNC don't judge others for presenting in a way that is typically considered "conforming" to their gender and don't campaign for other people to be like them?

Also... Are you defending radical feminism? Are you a radfem? Because that would make a whole lotta sense.

and one last thing,

Just so you know, this is how this anon began the final message. It is the longest one. Really said "one last thing" then sent me a whole 4 paragraphs.

please stop acting like “people who are attracted to men” are demonized in queer spaces, what a slap in the face to lesbians. the moment they have a little visibility y’all claim they are privileged and somehow bossing around/discriminating against gay men.

Never said that lesbians were the oppressor in this situation. There is no oppressor, it's fully lateral mistreatment. And like.. it's not about just gay men.

Bi women have been pushed out of and demonized within sapphic spaces for decades, actually. I should know. Because again. I'm a bi sapphic. We are seen as a range of things. Pretenders, abusers, invaders, the source of lesbian oppression, tricksters that try to force lesbians to fuck men, or just disgusting. Traitors. Again.

My own mother knows this because before she married my dad she was in sapphic spaces in the 90s. From her personal accounts, bi women were seen as the enemy and a lot of lesbians... weren't even lesbians. They were political lesbians. Women who rejected their attraction to men and only dated other women. Some of them were even straight. And they were considered more of lesbians than bi women were.

Even in the modern age, bi women are expected to shit on their own sexuality. They are expected to say "ew I hate that I like men" and never date or fuck a man to be accepted in queer spaces. Again, I know this because I'M LITERALLY BI.

gay men are literally the face of this community and continually disrespect sapphic/lesbians (see the billie lyric controversy, see the way they’re treating chappel roan, see the way they keep calling women b*tches with no regards on whether we like it or not, see the way they keep fraternizing with straight women that would literally cower in fear if they saw a butch lesbian in real life).

Yeah so misogynistic gay men are in fact a problem but I'm not talking about strictly gay men. I'm talking about the way masculine perceived traits are demonized within queer circles. Come on. I'm pretty sure cis gay men were barely talked about in my original post, why are you fixating on this so hard?

just because somebody who has literally no power over gay men whatsoever and has been traumatized by men her whole life airs out her frustration with her literal lifelong oppressors via tweet or tumblr post, doesn’t mean that suddenly the patriarchy doesn’t exist anymore and has not armed lesbians especially for the past thousands of years.

So I'm talking about the people telling me I'm inherently abusive or more likely to assault people based on the fact that I have high T levels... I'm not talking about people venting about their abuse at the hands of men.

I also never said the patriarchy doesn't exist... I feel like this message isn't about me anyone.

stop painting them as the mean bosses of the community when actually they are a very small, demonized minority who suffers every day at the hands of anyone in the world who likes men (straight women, gay men, even bi women like me).

Fascinating... So... I'm not doing that. Lesbians are not the "mean bosses" of the community. Some are just treating random people shitty for perceived masculine traits with no bearing on truth or reality. A lot of them aren't even lesbians. Like I never said this was a specifically lesbian issue. I said there was a problem in the community in general. So like... all people... not just lesbians.

Also, genuine question: How are you oppressing lesbians for being bi?

it’s such a warped, harmful view and a big stereotype, at that (lesbians are man-haters who hate women’s boyfriends!! what a progressive statement!! never has it been said before, and especially not by homophobic conservatives).

I mean I just didn't say that. I don't know how to respond to this because I just straight up didn't say that.

I just... This isn't about me anymore is it?

Who hurt you?

have some respect for once, a lesbian literally threw the first brick at Stonewall.

So... uh... we don't actually know for 100% certain who threw the first brick. Some say it was Marsha P. Johnson. Some say it was "gay street kids". Even if it was a lesbian... so? Just because one lesbian did a good thing doesn't mean other lesbians are incapable of being dicks to other people?

Idk, man, I never said that lesbians were the source of all evil. I just made a post about my own personal experiences and the experiences of people I know and have seen being talked about. I'm a bi, intersex, non-binary sapphic. I get shit on for the things that people perceive as masculine traits that I have and the fact that I like men. This happens a lot.

I don't know why me saying "hey please stop implying that there is something in my blood that makes me inherently abusive" is lesbophobic. Why is this about lesbians, actually? You made it about lesbians. Why are you using lesbians, a group you've stated you're not a part of, as a gotcha against me? Why are you using lesbians to silence me about my own experiences? Why is that okay?

[beatrixstonehill2]

Kennedy and Eliza barely recognized each other, bumping into each other in the hallway, both on their way to a very specialized clinic to boost their careers. Both girls were trans and friends since Junior High, having gone on puberty blockers and hrt around the same time, both were known as celebrated beauties in high school. By the time they attended college, going their separate ways, they were perfect in almost every way, natural beauties with huge natural breasts, Kennedy a KK-Cup, Eliza an M-Cup.

The two of them lost contact, but both winded up entering the adult entertainment industry. Figuring since they were such effortless, natural beauties with very tiny cocks men would drool over their content, allowing them to pay for SRS and facial feminization surgery, though they likely didn't need it. Instead they realized their content was hardly finding an audience, even with the big tits crowd. They sought out an agent, unknowingly getting the same guy. The man explained pretty succinctly what both girls would need to do to find success in the industry.

"It's simple," he explained. "Men aren't interested in trans girls who look like cis girls, just with even better tits and plump girly asses like you have. Men want to see a trans girl who went through male puberty, who's fighting back stubble, whose voice cracks especially when she cums. A trans girl has to have a nice big cock, even though you'll be bottoming, it doesn't matter, the bigger, the better. Men want trans girls who are tall, lean, masculine looking, no hips, tiny ass, like Victoria's Secret models in the 90s. They want you girls to not be very convincing as girls. And as for the tits, you need to look like a guy who had a flat chest and barely bothered taking hrt. You should look like a flatchested dude who got big implants. Nice big gap between them, nipples not symmetrical, visible scars, no jiggle at all, like a total hack job, that'll get guys drooling over you. In trans girl porn the less you pass, the better!"

Reluctantly, both Kennedy and Eliza, wanting so bad to make good money at porn, decided to fully detransition as their agent asked. They stopped estrogen and started testosterone, dick growth pills. The girls watched with fascinated dread as all the features they were so happy about disappeared one by one, all the hard work of their early transition ceased to be. Their curvy hips and asses got lean and flat and bony, their arms slimmed, shoulders broadened. Their faces became unrecognizable in only a few month on T. All the roundness, baby fat, and general femininity were gone. Their faces got angular, bony, even their brows got more prominent and in about a year their hairlines started receding.

Kennedy and Eliza were horrified but also turned on by how their bodies changed, both starting to question if they ever truly wanted to be 'girls' and if they really wanted to be feminine men. Their voices cracked and dropped, so they got voice training that made them sound like porn star valley girls...... that were obviously just boys putting on a voice! The girls reluctantly gave up their perfect natural breasts to go flat chested for a few months, then get DD-cup fake tits that could barely be crammed into their taut male chests. Just seeing their new bodies made both girls feel at last like boys playing dress up instead of trans girls. They jacked off their now foot-long cocks, celebrating as they came to their own reflections over and over.....

Eventually they crossed paths going up to their clinic for their T-shots before a big porno shoot, only to realize they'd both be in it and get to fuck as 'lesbians' before the men would come in to fuck their skinny asses and remind them they're just dumb, perverted boys. All their videos featured prominent misgendering and transphobia, and it only made both girls hornier. The two old friends showed their bodies to each other, gushing over how amazing and masculine they look and sound now. They about came on sight seeing how big each other's cocks were, and how badly their gorgeous breasts were destroyed. They reveled in the ruination of their girly, feminine bodies and couldn't get enough of looking like a couple of non-passing early transitioners desperate to make a quick buck in porn. They felt each other's chins and cooed in delight, feeling the brush of stubble under their foundation and concealer.

All that hard work, their total dream bodies gone forever, to be a couple of male-sounding crossdressers who barely even qualify as trans women getting ass fucked on camera every day, their huge cocks bouncing instead of their huge natural breasts. They both remember being reverse cowgirl atop guys, having to hold their tits so they don't get smacked in the jaw by them, their cocks barely an inch, so tiny and feminine, letting out tiny girly whimpers as they cum a teensy bit of clear fluid. Now they moaned in their deep, unconvincing voices, stroking their fat, foot-long cock, shooting twenty or so ropes of cum on camera for millions to see, their sweaty testicles oversized, as big as golf balls, ensuring they'd never look convincingly feminine again, and their masculine, testosterone-pumped genitals would be immortalized online by millions of men fantasizing about fucking them and misgendering them. For some reason the once beautiful, ideal trans girls didn't mind at all. The only thing that mattered was getting to cum over and over and over until their poor masculinized brains felt ready to turn to mush.

[biohorror-human]

Trans people may or may not have popped off with the "block every radfem you see" idea because holy shit. You are all some of the most pessimistic and spiteful fuckers on earth. You all claim not to be bio-essentialist, and then turn around and say shit that is, at its core bio-essentialist. All of your ideas, in some way, revolve around hurting someone else. Want to destroy the gender binary? Certainly attacking trans people will help. Want to destroy child marriage? Tell people not to marry brown people, just, ever. Want to destroy the patriarchy? (This is the best one) Never organize, never protest, never coordinate, just sit around and cultivate a nightmarishly toxic environment and then have the GALL to ask "why are people so open about their disdain for radical feminism?"

Because all your ideas are rooted in hate. The last time I've had discussions this fucking bleak with people is when I got into an argument with an actual self-described Nazi. Btw, I know you radfems are super exclusionary and refuse to cooperate with any other social group, but maybe Nazis would be up your alley? Considering they also have an affinity for eugenics and wanting to eliminate general swathes of the population, I think you'd be great for each other.

I mean, just to list some of the bullshit you people constantly say which doesn't line up with any of the other shit you say: "trans and GNC people destroying the gender binary (which is good because we radfems don't like the gender binary) is actually BAD now because we were using that gender binary to call all men oppressors, and now we have to actually confront what specific societal issues enable someone to be an oppressor, instead of just saying that being a man makes you an oppressor (which is bio-essentialism, which we disagree with, unless you're amab, in which case then bio-essentialism is actually something we super-agree with)

And that's just one of the ones that I actually went into the effort of tracking down. In terms of shit that I've just seen on a whim: you say you hate bio-essentialism, but also people born male are naturally more oppressive. You say women should have the freedom to do whatever they want, unless that "want" is dating men, because even if they're happy in their relationship, they're actually secretly sad and lying. Because since when did feminists hold the belief that women could understand their own emotions? Pretty clothes are also bad, because men like to look at clothes. Nevermind what the woman behind those clothes thinks, you shouldn't be able to enjoy anything for any reason because a man might look at it and also enjoy it for a split fucking second.

You know what that last one makes me think of? How abusive husbands tell their wives that they can't wear revealing clothes because it will attract the gaze of other men. But history is obviously not your forte, because if it was you'd understand that the only way social movements like feminism prosper is if they cooperate with other social movements, a concept you could really stand to learn a thing or two about. Another cool historical fact is that segregation is, historically, frowned upon. But I still see you talking about how white women shouldn't date brown men, and how asian women shouldn't date white men.

You know, they actually made a haven for people like you. And no, this isn't going to lead to a "Nazi Germany" bait and switch. It was a place where women could only marry into their own race. Where police were around every corner. Where women actively ratted out people betraying that law. Where women were literally not allowed outside past a certain time. It was South Africa under fucking apartheid. You believe, on a fundamental level, the same shit that traditionalists (nazis) and conservatives believe in. You make yourselves miserable as a form of protest, but because your circles are so exclusive, the only people there to witness your misery are other radical feminists. You're creating a hyper-dense misery sphere that doesn't even take that pain out on the patriarchy, only on other women. You have absolutely, undoubtedly got to be the worst rebels in the history of rebellion. You're literally making the patriarchy's job easier by pre-misery-ifying women. You're streamlining the misery process. I've never seen another social movement do that.

I think the only thing you guys actually accomplished was making men who cared or were curious about your movement equally miserable. You know what I got when I tried to join the radfem discussion? When I made the MISTAKE of trying to learn about your cause to better support it? I got fucking berated. you people finally had a man WILLINGLY come up to you to internalize your ideas. And you know what you chose to say to me? When I had a question, you mocked my voice. You compared me to an ogre, or a giant. You said women SHOULD be scared of me because of the way I was born. You said I was a natural-born rapist. You spoke about how my androgens made me develop into a beast- made me resent my own body, on top of how I already dissociated with it. You demonized any thought of sexuality, shot down any idea of body-positivity. And even then, even after all that I thought it may have been positive. I thought maybe it made me stronger, that maybe I was more like you because I was able to see the flaws in my own biology. Nah. You just wanted me to be miserable, like you. I was your willing punching bag for all of your anger and resentment. You're the femme-fascist matriarchs of self loathing. The only boiling bucket of crabs who not just drags the crabs trying to escape back in, but actively coaxes new crabs to join. You want a revenge story in a world where revenge only leads to more suffering. Your definition of equal is only met when every man is twice as miserable as you. That's not a world anyone, man or woman or anything else deserves to live in.

I have a bunch more shit to say but even thinking about you miserable fucks is starting to rub off on me. Fuck the patriarchy. Trans pride rules.

[kvothe-kingkiller]

okay I want to preface this with: I am Against gender testing in sports, I believe this whole trans panic thing is transphobic/intersexist/racist/etc, and I support trans women and trans people in general being able to do sports.

With that out of the way, I feel like people just....get the facts straight up Wrong on so many levels with all of this. Ledecky would not beat (olympic level) men in any of the competitions she does. Here are the men's vs women's world records on some of the swimming events

100m Free: Mens 46.8 (Zhanle), Womens 51.71 (Sjöström)

1500m Free: Mens 14:30.67 (Finke), Womens 15:20.48 (Ledecky)

100m Butterfly: Mens 49.45 (Dressel), Womens 55.18 (Walsh)

100m Breaststroke: Mens 56.88 (Peaty), Womens 1:04.13 (King)

400m Medley: Mens 4:02.50 (Marchand), 4:24.38 (McIntosh)

The story is the same if you look up running times, walking times, jump heights, jump lengths, throws, skiing times, skating times, etc etc.

here's the gender gap in swimming race speeds and then track and field events over the last century (courtesy of buzzfeed)

As you can see, they get better over time, then plateau. While it's certainly possible they might come down to 0, I doubt it will be any time soon (Nature actually estimated in 2004 that they could become more equal by 2156 but that was assuming an increase over time that has since leveled off). Those slight humps are from before steroids and other drugs became more rigorously tested.

These of course include the intersex and high T perisex women who have competed and will continue to compete so it's not just to do with testosterone, there are obviously multiple factors.

Ledecky beating men was during practice, idk who she was practicing against (it was a comment made by a teammate and didnt say who the men were) but it wasn't phelps or any of the other top male swimmers. Then when you have things like shooting etc, the main reason that's segregated by gender is simply because more men are in the sport. If you have (numbers arbitrary) 1000 men wanting to compete and 100 women and you take the best of all of them, chances are you'll end up with 9 men and 1 woman. Segregating it by gender ensures 10 men 10 women.

Tennis and other things like that are harder to score up against each other since men tend to compete against men and women against women, except for the occasional m/f double match. But I think it's safe to say that with the evidence from power and speed differences from the above stats, men would likely beat women if you're comparing the top vs the top. Yes, even Serena Williams.

Once again, I am against gender testing. I am against the racist and transphobic shit you see in sports nowadays.

But it is simply untrue to say that Cis men and Cis women are on the same level when it comes to top sporting events. I am not saying women are weak or women are shitty and bad at sports I am literally just showing people the Correct numbers.

I do not know the answer to this. I do not know how trans people should be included without excluding others. I am neither an athlete nor a gender scientist.

However, I do know the rhetoric around this on this site is unhelpful given it's entirely based around incorrect facts (that in straight athletic competitions, cis men and cis women are at equal levels) and everyone that tries to say otherwise is either actually transphobic or gets dogpiled as Being transphobic even if they aren't.

(Also, this is just at the top of the top. When we're talking about highschool and Especially elementary school sports, trans kids should absolutely be allowed to play whatever team they want.)

[this-is-exorsexism]

"oppression has nothing to do with your identity and everything to do with how you're perceived."

this is exorsexism.

by this logic, exorsexism doesn't exist, because there is no way to be perceived as nonbinary without explicitly identifying yourself as such.

not all kinds of oppression work the same way. exorsexism is identity-based. i've seen plenty of people be treated fine when they were perceived as cis men or women, but as soon as they said they were nonbinary, all exorsexist hell broke loose, despite their appearance not changing. i've seen people absolutely turn on nonbinary people because they thought they were "normal, acceptable" binary trans people. i've seen people revoke their "allyship" when someone who previously identified as binary trans came out as nonbinary - all without their appearance changing.

a core component of exorsexism is the erasure of and refusal to acknowledge our nonbinary identities. this has everything to do with identity and nothing with how you're perceived.

nonbinary people can walk through the world being perceived as both flavours of binary trans but still experience a specific oppression based on our identity that binary trans people don't. there's no way to be perceived as nonbinary in a world that does everything to erase who we are.

this logic also applies to other oppression that is mainly identity-based, like bimisia and amisia. there's no way to be perceived as bi+, aro or ace in a world that does everything to erase who we are. the above statement is also bimisic and amisic.

it's also transmisic, as by that logic, trans people who are perceived as cis people would be exempt from transmisic oppression. and we should know by now that cis-passing privilege is a bonkers concept.

this logic would also imply that a cis woman who is mistaken for a trans women experiences the same oppression as a trans women because "it's not about identity", but this is also bonkers.

different kinds of oppression work in different ways. some are mainly based on identity, others are based on identity and outside perception. no oppression, even things like fatmisia, where someone obviously looks marginalised, is purely based on outside perception.

but people want you to think that oppression that is mainly based on identity isn't real, and that oppression can only exist based on perception, because that way, they don't have to acknowledge binary, allo and mono privileges that come with not having that oppressed identity.

[ventbloglite]

The sad thing is - I think it's actually very terribly easy if you're trans femme to believe that trans masc people are out to get you.

We've been raised on 'woman vs man' all of our lives. We've all internalised it as sacred truth.

Why disbelieve it now? Even as trans people it's so very difficult to not see 'woman' and 'man' as directly opposites with no overlap, natural enemies with 'men' as the villain (because there must be a villain, right?). Doing so is so much easier than actually wrapping your mind around and thus trying to dismantle the many systems which exist to enforce the patriarchy and it's narrow definition of 'acceptable manhood' to boot.

And it's not like feminists have never or don't understand that there's many little systems that need to be tackled. We fight for gender neutrality in job titles 'fire fighter not fireman' for example even though it seems petty because we understand that man=default is one of those systems. This is before we even get to the glass ceiling, pay gap, the misogyny of many medical systems etc.

It's just that for many it's easier to see all men as equally privleged and evil and therefore unable to have any issues, so surely faking it for attention or to speak over women if they do.

There used to be such a thing as 'mens liberation'. This involved undoing the misogynistic beliefs men had grown up with and tackling toxic masculinity etc. Basically trying to create healthier, happier and more informed men who would happily defend a feminist cause because they realise the cause benefits all.

It is the direct opposite of 'MRAs' who seek to believe much like radfems that the 'opposite sex' is the root cause of all of their suffering and should be completely wiped out or placed under subservience at best without actually (again) looking at or trying to grasp the many systems of oppression with exist and how to genuinely tackle the issues they're facing.

MRAs = animal rights/PETA types if that helps MensLib = animal welfare (actually caring about animals)

But in that same way trans masc (and even a good amount of trans femme and trans neu people who understand transandrophobia) who speak about the oppression they face FROM CIS PEOPLE AND CISNORMATIVE SOCIETY (with maybe a sprinkling of lamentation about lack of intercommunity support or specific things a specific trans femme has said which isn't any more ok than any trans masc being openly transmisogynistic) are 'animal welfare' types. They know what they're going through and just want a word to describe it.

But like I said, it's so easy, I know, as a trans femme to just believe when people tell you that this is another wave of men oppressing you. That they must be the same as MRAs because men are inherently privleged. That these anons claiming to be trans mascs targetting trans women for hate must be actual trans mascs because ofc men hate women, even though it could be literally anyone on anon including troll shit-stirrers.

It's honestly not a blameable offence to believe it when it's all we've known and been told. Men hate women, so obviously trans men hate trans women, right?

Cishet men are privleged, so obviously all kinds of men are privileged, right?

The hard part is going to be undoing that. Men and women are not opposites. Trans men and trans women are not opposites. We are not enemies with trans neu people being forced to pick sides or stay away and be called ignorant. It's not fun or good to relish in the suffering of another group, and it's not feminist to think that somebodies gender automatically gives them x, y or z negative traits.

[futurefightsprophet]

you see! the thing is! revolutionary girl utena and the riot grrrl movement actually showed up around the same times, but during the early movement riot grrrl ideology was kind of rocky. it mostly focused on white women and rejecting a general upper/middle class upbringing, plus it has a bad history of excluding trans people and overall sparking a really extremist take on feminism that boils down to replacing the straight white men in power with straight white women that still embody a corrupt system.

the movement has improved itself overtime but the thing is that revolutionary girl utena, for all its flaws that i admit it has, kind of hit the ground running with a take on feminism that was ahead of its time. first of all anthy is a rare instance of a dark skinned character in an anime that isn't drawn like a racist caricature, and also one of the only dark skinned protagonists of that era. (dumb) people can debate that she's a flat character but the truth is that the whole story is for her; it's her life being brought a revolution. no one in rgu is white cuz obviously it takes place in japan, but it still rings true that the story aligns with the complexity of intersectional feminism that benefits to all women today, because what utena thought was empowering to all girls actually harms anthy and so on and so forth; even more so, what utena thinks is empowering her is actually hurting her all the same in the long run, turning her into the man she thinks she's fighting against that want them both crushed under it.

rgu also touched on the fact that putting women in a position of power instead of men wouldn't solve anything, because the system itself is rotten. even more mature of it for its time was that the show had a realistic ending where even after utena dedicated her last moments in the show to trying to free anthy, the coffin still fell away from her reach, and the swords turned on her. to akio this was a failure, and this is how a lot of people see fighting against corrupt systems to end: the system always ultimately wins against the individuals, and people lose hope that change can ever happen. however, utena's beliefs inspired anthy to leave ohtori, and then in the movie you see that the student council is given hope to leave as well. change, revolution, is gradual, but that doesn't make it any less worth it. in a lot of punk media i see this ending where the heroes can alone end the oppression in the movie, but that's just not how it works in real life, but there are moments of victory that inspire others to pick off where they leave off, and a better future is imaginable.

i think finally, in regards to the riot grrrl movement, rgu is way more nuanced with gender. you honestly just have to look at the fans to see that utena's gender expression gave trans people who watched rgu more vocabulary to express themselves. more than that though, i think the show was careful with how it approached both gender and femininity. the prince and the bride are both gendered roles, but masculinity and femininity aren't intrinsically toxic for each other. the show doesn't punish utena for being masc, and likewise even after escaping her role as a rose bride, anthy likes dressing fem. it's the way heteronormativity has made us think of these expressions: that masculinity has to come with aggression, and femininity means subservience. neither is a bad thing for the other, and people should be allowed to present how they want, not how they feel their personality means they have to.

all in all i think revolutionary girl utena is a relic for punks and riot grrrls and it isn't considered as such by a lot of people. the show really was ahead of its time. i hope this was coherent!

[vergess]

hello do you happen to have an explanation/definition of what pinkwashing is? don't trust googlie with a term so new and it does not line up with my understanding of the terms it's made up of (-washing = covering or changing the original or true depiction, pink- = I only know this term in politics from pink-collar and I am 99% certain it does not mean the same thing here)

Oh, yeah, you're absolutely correct about it not being a pink-collar thing.

For my followers, pink-collar refers to paid work outside the home that is traditionally held by women. The "pink" refers to women, femininity, etc. Just girly things, if you will.

In pink-washing, however, the pink refers to pink triangles, a prominent symbol of queer survival after pink triangles were used to mark sexual deviants (that is, gay men and trans women).

Pink-washing is the use of "we have queer rights, unlike those barbaric savages" to justify state violence.

Right now, the term is mostly coming up in discussions of Israel. In that specific context, it refers to the fact that Israel is far and away the most progressive and well-protected place for queer people of all sorts in the middle east. Which the Israeli government often likes to point to as proof that their brutal ethnic cleansing is a "necessary force" to protect queer lives from Islamist extremism.

It's a sort of, "look, I know what I'm doing is bad, but what they're doing is way worse: look at how badly they treat their queers. Obviously I must be violent to help civilize the animals, for the sake of their queers," often while actively killing queer civilians for being for the wrong race.

Unfortunately, pink-washing is itself strong evidence that a state devalues her queer citizens, thinking of them not as vulnerable people to be protected (as the state will insist is the case), but rather as tokens to be trotted out as proof of the state's "goodness." And should any queer person defy the role of "good little token," they are inevitably and severely punished. As they say (they being in this case an Israeli sociologist whose name escapes me entirely), "A trans woman in uniform will be given medical care, but a trans woman who refuses military service will go to a men's prison."

Pink-washing is also extremely, EXTREMELY common in the U.S. though this doesn't get as much air time lately as Israeli pink-washing. But, the U.S. very regularly uses pink-washing around gay (not so much trans) rights to justify both imperial and domestic violence. Even at the per-state level, it is extremely common for people in "progressive" states to say absurd shit like, "well we treat our gays with respect, unlike Alabama!" to thought-stop themselves from noticing how miserable their lives are as a direct consequence of state action (or even state inaction to stop violence, as is often the case with capitalism and policing problems).

There's also a significant problem in Canada with their pretty solid record on queer rights being used as a counter-argument to their mistreatment of indigenous peoples. This too is pink-washing.

Pink-washing also devalues to lives and specifically the queerness of the people being targeted for violence. You know. By killing them and stuff. But also by denying that they deserve the very right to life and safety that is supposedly the mission statement.

If the entire point of pink-washed violence really was queer liberation, they would suck at that because they keep killing all the queer people they don't fucking like.

[olderthannetfic]

I do think a lot of the problem and the reason that more people (like the ones who seem to think that "top/bottom as myers-briggs personality types" jokes are exclusively coming from female-centric fandom spaces rather than gay male offline culture - which, btw, ignores that a whole bunch if not most female fanfic writers are themselves queer and there's a similar set of jokes and stereotypes in the lesbian community, but I digress) don't seem to understand what offline queer culture is like on here is that way too many of the people setting the tone for this in The Discourse on Tumblr are very young people who are newly out. In particular, a huge amount of the gay men on here who are telling people how very Problematic this is (when they're getting it from gay men and not circular discourse among other women in fandom who are claiming to speak on gay men's behalf) is coming from young gay men who don't have much of a community offline, and especially young gay trans men who often aren't yet presenting as male outside of the Internet. It's really hard to talk about, because it so easily risks saying those people's identities aren't valid - and like, we've seen TERFs weaponize that discourse to suggest that gay trans men involved in fandom are just straight women who identified too hard with their blorbos or something, as well as the endless use of "passing privilege" to suggest that bi people in F/M relationships are "basically straight" - but I think one thing people need to understand better is the difference between "your identity is valid, your personal experiences with homophobia/transphobia/etc. are valid" and "your judgments about the larger community that your identity makes you a member of are valid." Like, you do actually have to participate in a community to be able to be able to talk about what the consensus in it is, what the cultural norms are. You have to actually look up the history in order to know that history. If you're going to speak on behalf of All Gay Men you probably should know some beyond yourself - including ones who are not Very Online and/or aren't active in fandom - and that goes for both cis and trans gay men. (And the same is true for every subdivision of LGBTQ+, I've seen similarly bizarre takes about "lesbian culture" from 17-yro lesbians who clearly haven't talked to any outside of Tumblr and insular, dramatic Discords.)

Like, to use an analogy here to another kind of oppression: say you have a black person who was adopted by a white family very young and lived in an exclusively white neighborhood and doesn't know any other black people. Obviously, they are still black, and obviously they still experience racism (probably especially because they're an outlier in that community). Obviously, their own understanding of their identity and their experiences with racism are valid. But they aren't necessarily going to have any better of an understanding of the broader black COMMUNITY - cultural traditions, history, etc. - than a non-black person who was similarly not exposed to that community. They can only speak for themselves. And someone who isn't black but grew up near/in black communities (for instance, perhaps another transracial adoptee who was adopted by a black couple? or even just a non-black person who grew up in a heavily black neighborhood) might actually have a better sense of that broader community/culture than they do.

And this isn't a hypothetical. I've heard stuff like that about feeling like outliers in black American culture from everyone from the aforementioned transracial adoptees; to multiracial black people who were raised primarily by their non-black family; to black people who are recent immigrants from Africa rather than descendants of slaves; to black people from Europe or other parts of the Americas, who have some similarities in their culture but it's not completely 1:1. And especially from people who are some combo of the above. They have an understanding of themselves as black and of their relationship to race and racism, of course, but don't really feel like they have a particularly strong understanding of The Black Community or The Black Experience as we understand it in the USA.

I think what a lot of people don't understand is that newly-out queer people are often like that. A lot of other marginalized identities - like being a cis woman (this applies less to trans women unless they've known from early on) or being a POC - are ones where you grow up with an understanding of what that means and often a connection to a broader community that gives you some kind of consciousness of what it means to be A Woman or Black or Asian or whatever. But with queerness, it's usually not something you fully understand about yourself until adolescence or adulthood, and even when you do, you don't necessarily have access to a "community" around that until that age because you're probably being raised by cis straight people. You have to take time to discover that community and learn about it, and the culture and history that goes with, and when you start out you're going to be just as ignorant as a straight cis person who is similarly isolated from queer communities. (And frankly, a straight person with a lot of gay friends might know better than you do at first! As a lesbian with a lot of gay male friends, most of whom couldn't care less about my slash fanfic hobby if they even know about it, that's precisely why I know that these takes on Tumblr are so bizarre)

(Disability is the interesting one because it sometimes overlaps with this, sometimes doesn't - and one of the big divides in the community IME is around people who have lifelong understandings of themselves as "disabled" vs. came to it more recently, whether because the disability itself is a new thing or just their diagnosis of it. A lot of people in the second group can have very similar experiences and act in similar ways to newly-out queer people, and I know because I've lived both myself, lol.)

I think people have taken the idea of "everyone is the best expert on their own experience with oppression and their own identity" and distorted that into some weird essentialism where being gay or bi or trans or whatever gives you automatic understanding of "queer culture" or "queer history" without having to do the actual work of talking to people, participating in that community, studying history, etc. but that's just not true. Anyone can study that history and get to know those people. And yeah, as a queer or trans person you'll have a better opportunity to really deeply know and be part of that community than straight cis people with queer friends ever will, but you still have to like. Actually put yourself out there! You're not going to find it by just discoursing in a vacuum of ignorance.

--

Sadly, to all the Olds, this is very, very obvious, but there's no way to make it obvious to the people doing it. It's a matter of experience.

[trans-androgyne]

Ok as a trans girl I thought I'd throw out some opinions on egg jokes cause I've seen you post some things from one perspective and I'd like you to hear mine. What I'm gonna say is NOT MEANT TO ACCUSE YOU OF SAYING THIS STUFF !! It is just some observations I've noted from various communities

I've noticed a lot of the backlash surrounding egg jokes has been specifically about the concept of someone being a trans woman being inherently perverse and sexual, as compared to, say, gay jokes. Both of these sorts of jokes come from the same place (ex "I see myself/friends in this person, haha they're just like me/them") but one is much more socially acceptable than the other. If I see a man in a crop top with neon pink booty shorts and say "lol he's so gay" , nobody really cares other than the occasional "you can never assume anything about anyone" person. If I see a guy with long hair awkwardly looking at feminine deodorant and say "lol he's such an egg", that gets a stronger reaction from all sides of the community than the previous situation. There's a lot of people saying things like "let me be feminine" which,I agree! Men should be allowed to be feminine! But if a trans woman sees her pre-transition self in the way a man acts and jokes about it, that isn't something that should be as heavily policed as it is now.

There is a very large stereotype that trans women run 'feminizing cults' that recruit men and manipulate them to start estrogen and such, this is a transmisogynist conspiracy and what a *lot* of backlash from egg jokes leans into. Obviously, if you yourself aren't comfortable being called an egg or anything like that, then by all means tell anyone who tries to make that joke with you. If they're a good person they'll just go "oh, ok, thanks for telling me" and stop joking about that with you. Block the tags, curate your online experience, but I think a lot of people expect trans woman to fully stop making these jokes because of some disgust they feel from it, and attributing that disgust to mean there's some inherent moral stance on egg jokes, which there isn't

Also for context I am a trans girl whose egg was cracked via egg jokes lolll

Thank you for sharing your perspective. I think a lot of discomfort at egg jokes is in fact coming from a place of transmisogyny. I do not care about the vast majority of egg jokes. I think they can sometimes be reinforcing the gender binary, but honestly so can other popular trans jokes. I personally get uncomfortable when people are publicly speculating on the activities and gender of a specific stranger just going about their day because I would hate if that was me. I don’t care if people make those jokes with their friends. But enough people have passed around this deodorant example that if the deodorant person is a cis guy they’d probably feel pretty uncomfortable about it! Same with other cis guys who already feel insecure about expressing femininity for fear people will think they’re less of a man. As a trans guy I already get nervous people will see me pick out feminine deodorant (it just smells better) in the grocery store aisle and misgender me about it. People thinking it would be okay to speculate about me online as a result if they mistook me for a cis guy would be awful to me. I think we should have a genuine conversation about what constitutes violating a stranger’s privacy. But we desperately need to watch the transmisogyny in these conversations because a lot of people’s takes sound suspiciously like “trans women are groomers” rhetoric.

[hesitantvampirealien]

notifications disabled for this post. Send me any potential corrections through the asks or private messages.

I know i said I wouldn't do public angry rants anymore, but this is a nevessary rant. I ask you to read the entire text before interacting with the post (obviously)

stop misgendering gerard on purpose

you know very well what kind of person you sound like when you do that.

it's just lowkey comical (if not enraging) how some refer to them with the one pronoun they don't use, as far as I'm aware at least, but I've never seen anyone say they used all, only he/they, if I'm wrong you can tell me (but I'll need a RELIABLE source to what you say to make sure you're not just making shit up to have the right to disrespect someone without being rightfully scolded), so using "she" just makes you incredibly disrespectful. Like... you think a he/they can't wear a dress? you think a he/they can't show femininity? you think a he/they isn't allowed to not look like a straight cis guy all the time? You think just because someone doesn't use a male label then they automatically must be female and can't just be neither, or use no labels at all? You think a person can't be happy showing fenininity if they're not a woman? you think that's not possible? you think that's WRONG, perhaps? because THAT is what you sound like. Not only to me, but to many people that I've seen complaining inumerous times about this INSANE disrespect

following the same logic, do you think, for example, because I'm wearing makeup in most of my photos and don't fit in one particular binary gender, i don't have your permission to be a he/him and i have to be what YOU say i should be? because that's what you sound like when you do that

and i can already tell someone's gonna be butthurt and tell me I'm exaggerating so they don't have to feel shame for being a disrespectful little bitch. Gerard is a person, not a fucking character you can headcanon things about.

Not to mention that this kind of disrespect is one of the reasons why some masc or neutral trans people also feel extremely unsafe wanting to use or do things considered feminine, because look at how you're fucking treating a person that you don't even actually know. It's not 100% correlated (well... it is, a little bit) but don't even get me started on the shit my masc or neutral fellas have to go through because of people who very obviously also love to give them a hard time just because they don't fit in your "preferred gender label" and make them feel like shit for existing because you keep throwing them in the same pit as cishet men who fuck things up and say all of them are the same (newsflash, you're being just as oppressive as the cishet men). Like, I'm sorry (I'm not sorry) but most of you, if not all of you, are those exact same people, who do the exact same things and behave the same way, you're just doing it in different intensities. Just go fuck yourself already, seriously. I genuinely mean it with all my heart.

if I'm wrong about the he/they, do tell me and show me the reliable source so i can be sure that I'm actually wrong and can correct myself properly, but I'll most likely keep the post up since i also brought up another issue regarding this kind of disrespect.