#anti masculinity

[ugly-anarchist]

People on this site cannot or intentionally refuse to distinguish between systemic oppression and lateral mistreatment and it's a massive problem.

Me talking about how other queer people target me for having masculine traits isn't me saying that cisallohet perisex men are oppressed for being men and feminism sucks and lesbians are evil.

Me pointing out how late diagnosed autistic people treat me like an other for getting a diagnosis early isn't me saying late diagnosed people are privileged and have power over me.

Me saying that aroaces have mistreated me and pushed me out of aspec spaces as an alloaro isn't me saying that aroaces are my oppressors and they don't belong in aro spaces.

"Can the people who are in the same community as me but have different experiences please stop treating me like shit" isn't me saying that I'm the most oppressed person on the planet and no one but me suffers. I'm just asking you to stop treating me like shit. That shouldn't be a controversial statement.

Not everything is about privilege and oppression, sometimes people are just dicks and maybe it's you.

[majesticcorn2000]

people like to talk about how bad toxic masculinity is until they hear transmasculine people talking about their experience and suddenly it turns into "stop whining, you are A MAN"

[xmimikyuusx]

I had a longer post rattled off that I don't feel like posting anymore, but anti-masculinity in leftist spaces also means we need to stop being mean to teenaged girls that like yaoi, and we need to stop implying that loving fictional men means you hate women. Don't give me any "except for the people who-" I mean every single one.

[genderqueerbird]

I’m gonna be honest with you, if I check your blog and it’s “I hate men, kill men, all men are evil bastards, I hate them and want them to die they’re evil, cruel, monsters and I should never, ever, have to be anywhere near them”

…I’m probably just going to block you. Don’t even bother trying to interact.

[objection-u-a-bitch]

I seen you post about me hating.

I just like to say that I agree with it partialy.

Trans men are men, and disabeld men are men just like ableld bodied men (this includs trans men). But unlike cis, and ablebodid men, trans men and disabeld men are much more safer for women to be around. Trans men were treated like girls growing up, so they know what it's like, and we don't need to explain how we are viewed socialy. And we don't have to be sceard of disabeld men become they can't really hurt us the same way as able bodied men can. Like a man in a wheelcheir can't kill us with his own hands dou to phisical restriction he has.

And I still be sceard of Jewish, black, asian, ect, men because they are men. Like if I'm alone at night going home from work then I will be sceard of any men regardless of his religion, ethnicity (exept Russian, if you see a Russian no metter the genders they are defenetly up to no good), or race I will be sceard the same way.

And fat men are a mix bag. They are eather sweat guys who strougles with self esteem issues and deservs support, or a raging misogenist who hates on fat women.

I don't know what post I made that you think is about you. The post about needing to unlearn misandry to be an ally that is pinned to my account is directed at everyone in leftist circles, and not because of a singular post I saw anywhere. I made it over two months ago with regards to general frustrations I have with anti-masculinity in the queer community in particular, but also in other leftist circles. It's funny though that you saw that post and thought it was about you. I don't even know who you are. And you clearly aren't telling me, because you're on anon. I'm not going to spend the time telling you why all of your ask is horseshit. It just is. You treat minority groups like a monolith and use it to justify being scared and bigoted towards men of all kinds. You treat all trans and disabled men as nonthreatening, which is infantilising, while saying all Russians are dangerous, which is some McCarthyist Cold War red scare bullshit. You talk about fat men as if only the "good ones" deserve support. Men constitute approximately 50 percent of the world population. To hate, fear, dismiss, avoid, ignore, and insult them is incongruent with leftist ideas of making the world a better place for everyone. Men are as varied and complex as women. They can be as gentle or as aggressive as women can be. They can be as harmless or as dangerous as women can be. They can be as forward-thinking or as close-minded as women can be.

You can't treat men as a monolith, and you also can't divide men into neat little groups that you sort into "good" and "bad". Every person is an individual who can choose to do good or do bad. Some of the white able-bodied cishet men in my life are the most supportive and kind people I know, and I know some fucking vile disabled trans men who need to shut the fuck up.

Taking precautions for your safety at night is reasonable, just like putting your seatbelt on in the car is reasonable, just like putting a smoke and carbon monoxide detector on every floor of your house is reasonable. Treating all men like shit because a few of them could be bad is not.

[soaplantro]

Blaming the radicalization of reactionary men on man-hating feminists is the anti-feminist position. Blaming the radicalization of reactionary men on the left is the right-wing position. Seems obvious to me, but after being told to "Come back when you’re ready to respond to what I’m actually saying," it's only natural that I should rather make my own post, thank you very much.

[masokawa]

local trans boy vents bla bla bla

i am SO tired of the people who claim transandrophobia/transmisandry/anti-transmasculinity/any term related to transmasc oppression “doesn’t exist” because its just transphobia bc apparently not a single person on earth hates trans men for being men, it’s just because we’re trans!

if i were not a man, i would not be trans.

if i were not trans, i would not be a man.

you cannot separate those from each other. i am not just trans. i am not just a man. i am a transgender man and both words are intertwined with each other in an inseparable way.

“nobody hates you because you’re a man. it’s because you’re trans.”

is it?

the people who say i should be a straight tomboy or a butch lesbian. “just because you dress up as a boy doesn’t mean you are one. it’s okay to like boy things and be a woman.”

the people who threaten me with violence. “oh since you wanna be a man, you can get your ass beat like one.”

the people who tell me i’m a traitor to women. “why would you choose to become the oppressor. kill yourself.”

the people who tell me to get raped.

the people who tell me to get assaulted.

the people who hope i get murdered.

the people who tell me to commit suicide.

the people who don’t think trans men exist.

the people who prioritize CHASERS above trans men.

the people who refuse to hear the cries of trans men when we are hurting.

the people who center other people in discussions about US and OUR oppression.

the people who believe we are worse than cisgender men because we “chose” to be men.

all of this is only because we are trans? not because we are transgender men?

at what point does it end? what will it take for people to listen to trans MEN about OUR fucking issues? when will people stop belittling us, mocking us, ignoring us, because we dared to have feelings about how we’re being oppressed?

ignoring us is the last fucking thing we need right now.

i’m tired of it.

[cios-correct-opinions]

"androphobia" doesn't exist. it's 'just' transphobia - which is bad! "transphobia that transmascs face" is just transphobia, no need for a special new word. i get people didn't want to say transmisandry because, well, misandry is fake and you sound just like a men's rights activist. but there is no "androphobia"

[men-and-their-monsters]

One of the reasons I think it’s hard to talk about being a man under the patriarchy is because talking about it as a man also requires people that have an idea of what a man is that isn’t based on the patriarchy but also have the ability to understand and empathize with the fact that people - men in this case - can’t necessarily undo all the stuff they have internalized overnight, and sometimes it’s about making sure that nobody else falls for that trap.

Like a few months ago I was on a discord call providing a metaphorical shoulder for one of my bets friends to cry on, because a lot of shit was happening. And he was talking and he started to cry and then I felt the tears and then I changed the subject. Because I’m a coward. And in that moment it was more important to stop myself from crying than it was to comfort my best friend. That conversation should have lasted hours and instead it lasted 25 minutes and I hate myself for changing the subject. I was not the man I wanted to be, or aspired to be or needed me to be. I was the man I hated and resented and feared.

I bring all this up because the conservatives would make fun of me for struggling not to cry “what kind of man struggles not to cry, only real men are deserts” but there is the insidious other side where leftists tend to reside, where they will use the same language to berate men for struggling to cry. “Why can’t he accept himself and fucking cry” they will use the same language like “tough guys wear pink” “only cowards don’t cry”. They will talk about my toxic masculinity like it isn’t also trauma and violence and pain that I suffered. I didn’t do it because I wanted to, I did it because I had internalized the feelings of society and I still don’t know how to deal with that. I want you to… no i need you to understand that if I could have I would have just cried. That was the right thing to do. That was the human thing to do. That was the human thing to do. And yet, that was the thing that was violently beaten out of me as a kid. The reason I didn’t cry was because of the patriarchy and the societal forces it controls it’s the reasons a lot of men do or don’t do a lot of things and the same can be said for the rest of the human population. This goes unrecognized when we talk about men a lot of the time.

[ugly-anarchist]

This is what it feels like talking about antimasculinity within the queer community.

Disclaimer: This is a meme format and not The Best and Most Detailed explanation of antimasculinity ever.

[pansnovydinnia]

even as a joke this is not okay and never will be. no one is superior gender, and no one alone can fix society. we either do it together or kill each other trying to prove someone's better

fucking thank you for reminding me how people hate me only because i started using another pronouns. thank you for reminding me i always will be unwanted as me myself, and the only acception i would fine is as pseudo woman ive never been but people want to see me like. thank you for wanting to erase all people who don't consider themselves women. fucking thank you. fuck fuck fuck.

[drew-dopamine]

not my silly ass hating myself for being a trans guy and feeling like I’m doomed to become a misogynist horrible person if I ever try to transition if I’m not already a misogynist horrible person because I’m a guy right now 😜😜😜😜😜

[rhouxl]

Thinking about reading a heartfelt poem in class, a specific line of the author calling her boyfriend an angel, and hearing a classmate, a bisexual woman, loudly proclaim "ew, imagine saying that about a guy".

Thinking about that same person saying that all men should die, and her being friends with multiple transmasculine nonbinary people, and wondering whether she hates them too or sees them as 'women light'.

Thinking about the same person questioning me on my dating preference, on being masc4masc, questioning why I don't like femmes better, being argued against on every point with "not every femme is like that though".

Thinking about expressing discomfort with this repeated sentiment to a different queer person, who is involved in running multiple queer groups, and being told "well, I don't really care".

Thinking about queer meet-ups labelled as being for "the shes and the theys", about trans women being a threat and trans men and butches ruining their femininity, about nonbinary people being expected to be petite and non-threatening and androgynous but never too masculine.

[humormehorny]

Part One

Ok, so I’ve seen a few posts from men talking about the how truely unhelpful/dismissive the “men just need to go to therapy” sentiment is. But I don’t often see talk about why this is, at it’s core, a misunderstanding of who and what men are. this boils down to how [the patriarchy](see the tags) offers men a trade, you get to be marginally more physically safe <I will hit this point on later> and gain significantly more respect and wealth for the work you do in exchange for your humanity.

This is most seen in men’s societal role as protectors. I mean men have social cues that were directly developed to tell men how you view the women around you. If you have experience life as a man long enough you probably know the nod. However, a far more impactful analysis would indicate that this is actually a subset of threat and intention communication. Men are always potential threats in the eyes of society and in the subconscious of its participants and it is important that we know which men are threats right now and the men who aren’t.

Its not like this sort of idea isn’t pervasive or fringe. I’ve heard “there is no such thing as a safe cis man” in queer spaces and “men are weapons”/“ducks<all male animals> evolved to perpetuate sexual violence” in cishet spaces. These are not hot takes in these spaces and while they may not be commonly discussed, they are ideas that are acted upon and used as an underlying framework.

I need you to understand that this compounds for MoC. They have always been targets of this sort of all men are bastards and it genuinely pains me when people say this because saying “all men are trash” and Black Lives Matter, Asian Lives Matter, Indigenous Lives Matter, Islanders Lives Matter are inherently conflicting. You can not say that these people matter and then use the same tools of their oppression against a subgroup if the that propel to Deny them and others the right to humanity.

In these cases men are always potentially a threat but what is more concerning and something that few people have brought up is the idea that it might be difficult to have a normal relationship with other people if you believe at your core that men and thus yourself are monsters, creeps, and weapons/perpetrators of one of the most oppressive systems on the planet. Hi w can you have a normal health relationship with a women if you believe that you must fight your “true nature” in order to be in a healthy relationship or that that inner struggle is a part of that healthy struggle.

I often find that many conversations around men’s struggle often teeter around a man’s relationship with a single women as if that is somehow tied to his own masculinity and I would argue that it is just as revolutionary to believe that men don’t need women as the idea that women don’t need men. Men don’t need women to substitute a healthy social life. They don’t need women to fulfill the human need of deep but nonromantic non sexual needs that are often pushed onto the backs of women as a burden.

Note: the last paragraph utilizes heteronormativity as it’s back bone, but I only look toward Grindr to see that gay men are also harmed by this subject and people of color (especially those who live in western countries have literally had their communities and what they would consider to be the family unit destroyed.

In a similar fashion, when people worry about men, because they might be unable to get a job or marry, it is because men don’t have the social network to support them, which even if this weren’t just about number of friends, is concerning, but the reality it’s about number and about the depth that men can have in platonic friendships. There is no socially safety net for broad swaths of men.

One could assume that this doesn’t translate over to the trans masc or the masculine non-binary, but I assure you from first hand accounts and stories all over the internet, that transition, doesn’t guarantee friendships and there is a loss of that platonic kind of love<I assume I’m missing context as there is nuance to trans experiences this is just what I’ve heard>

I have to assume that there is some connection between <man as a weapon> and the lack of friendships, but I would like to point out that there is a second component to humanity especially as it relates to this conversation that is often lacking in men.

Part two coming soon

[objection-u-a-bitch]

Two can play that game, babyboy. By telling women to be better about men you perpetuate the oppressive and outdated gender roles with women being the soft, understanding, patient (=defenseless and not allowed to express strong emotions) gender and men allowed to do fucking whatever except being normal human beings, as that's unmanly. And yeah, I don't care about man's political stance, race, orientation or whatever - I'm not leaving my pepper spray home if all the trans, black, and jewish men die out right this instant, and I won't if all the cis able bodied white men do. Equality!

lololol first of all don't call me 'babyboy' thats a sexual comment and you are a stranger to me

secondly it's like you don't read my post, you just wanna justify being a dick to men! i never said you should leave your pepper spray at home. i dont carry it personally, but i live in a safe area. taking precautions to ensure your safety in public is always justified, i would say, so long as that doesn't threaten the safety of said public by carrying genuine weapons around.

thirdly, treating trans men, black men, and jewish men poorly because they're men isn't equality. very likely by treating them poorly you are perpetuating transphobic, racist, or antisemitic behaviours that contribute to their oppression. makes you a piece of shit, to be honest.

lastly, if you think the only way to not be a dick to people for who they are is to fall back on traditional gender roles, thats on you, buddy. i managed for 20+ years and ive never in my life been described as soft, patient, or defenseless.

also, you're allowed to read a post you don't agree with and not come to me to argue about it. you know very well that by sending this to me you won't convince me that your misandry is justified. you just want to show your little radfem friends how good you've been about reaching your "dunking on men/trans people" quota for the week. which i think isn't a very mature response to a post that i think was very clear about what is expected behaviour in leftist spaces.

[transunity]

This is a really good post

I'm really willing to talk about my relationship to privilege, but when I do, it's not the answer people want to hear.

I've had doctors who treated me like a man up until I walked into their clinic. I rang for an appointment with a cold and a masculine name, so the doctor assumed I was a cis man. I got an appointment and went there. When I met the doctor in person, he recoiled from me. Literally actually recoiled when I found out I'm trans. He was meant to do a physical examination of my abdomen to feel for abnormalities (as I'd been experiencing extreme pain there). But he suddenly called it off and refused to even touch me.

That's my current relationship to male privilege. Sure, over the phone and online, my masculine name will lend me conditional privilege on the basis that people assume I'm a cis man. E.g. on Facebook people assume I'm a cis man from my name. Though once, in an argument, a cis man actually bothered to click my profile picture and found other photos of me which clocked me as trans.

It's conditional- so yes, while I may momentarily experience male privilege if someone assumes I'm a cis man online or over the phone, access to that conditional privilege pales in the face of medical neglect I've experienced when clocked (I had to push to get seen at the hospital where they discovered my kidney condition), or the transphobic abuse hurled at me on Facebook when cis men realise the man they were arguing with isn't cis.

There's even circumstances when passing as a cis man is disadvantageous to trans men's healthcare. I once needed to access an emergency contraceptive pill from the pharmacy (UK). By law, they cannot be given to men. I was read as a man and was initially denied vital medication to prevent any possible pregnancy. I had to out myself to get medication ans legally had to misgnder myself on the NHS form to get the meds.

When I talk about my relationship to male privilege, its rarely easy or bite size. Too many people want it to be so they don't have to think too hard about how they could be hurting trans men.

The thing is that, like most trans men I know, I’m more than willing to discuss my relationship with male privilege and manhood regarding the ways I’ve seen a direct benefit on my life.

I work a woman-dominated, and let’s be real an afab-dominated, job. When a known misogynist client- who has been scolded multiple times for his behavior heckles and hassles the women who work there to the point where multiple coworkers refuse to be in the same room as him- glances at me and then looks away and chooses a different target, I know why. It’s because he saw my beard and my moustache and my generally male appearance and decided that it would be far too gay to engage in that behavior with me.

But if I talk about this relationship, then you also need to listen when I say that exact same client treated me exactly the same way he treats the female staff when I was on the phone with him just a week prior, because he heard my voice and decided for me that I was a woman he was going to treat poorly.

If I talk about this relationship, then you need to listen when I say that people have called the police to report a violent black man was threatening them when all I was doing was existing in an area, an area that I have existed in as a black woman and not had people try to get the police to kill me.

If I talk about this relationship, then you need to listen when I say that I experienced terrible antiblack racism as a direct result of being one of three black girls in my entire school system, and that it did not magically get better the moment I realized I was transgender at 13 nor did the misogynistic part of the abuse suddenly stop affecting me or my mental health.

If I talk about this relationship, you need to listen when I say that being pulled over by the police due to a broken headlight takes a very different tone now that I am largely passing in my day-to-day life, and what used to be “let off with a warning” has now become “tickets and points”.

And if you are not ready to listen, then I am not willing to have this discussion, because by focusing only on one part of the equation you ignore the entire rest of my existence.