#contrapoints

[skygenders]

This part of Contrapoint’s Reddit post is so blatantly nasty because how can you see Palestinians posting to the world what they are going through and call it “online left” and “worse than useless”. Public opinion has radically changed, people in my own life that used to be shocked that I didn’t support Israel, are siding with me now. Her entire post is blackpilled doomer nonsense.

[kick-a-long]

I forgive her. She’s done more good by far than popular leftist Jews on YouTube. I tried to keep watching lady knight brave and Jacob geller but I couldn’t stand how fast they fell in line and made videos specifically to take heat off themselves/separate themselves as tokens.

And don’t get me started on the POS betrayal that is “I just love Judith butler all of a sudden for no reason” philosophy tube.

My take? She isn’t perfect but she stuck her whole neck out there and is getting beaten up for it. That deserves some respect and recognition.

This just got shared over on Discord by a friend of mine--ContraPoint's personal statement on the I/P conflict.

It is hellaciously antisemitic. We have repeated invocations of the genocide canard. Repeated invocations of "Jews have too much influence on the US government" canard. Multiple instances of blood libel. I could probably get a Bingo on one of my cards without trying too hard if I actually went line-by-line.

AND YET.

ContraPoints' core thesis here is "no, the Pro-Palestine movement is functionally a group of self-defeating antisemites whose actions do not help Palestinians at all and are fundamentally self-defeating."

As I commented on Discord,

if this is what qualifies as a voice of reason and a call to sanity within the Hamasnik movement--and it is--then you know we have trouble

[catdotwav]

I think a good takeaway here's that you can read as much and cite as many sources and speak on all the political topics you want but if you can't answer the basic question of "should we care that people are dying" without some variation of "it's complicated" that's what's gonna show how much merit your perspective on anything has. Same goes for how much that bothers you.

[airborneranger63]

I have to say, I'm so deeply proud of Contrapoints . I've looked up to her and loved her videos since I was 15, and I was so worried one day I'd wake up and see a "Death to Israel" post from her. Instead, she approached the subject with so much care and nuance. She called out Israel's actions while acknowledging the rampant antisemitism on the left. She did this knowing what blind outrage she'll face from hoardes of illiterate hateful goons on Twitter. I can't describe how grateful and safe I feel now.

[bisexualdisappointmentcousin]

Adding in my two cents to the Contrapoints discussion happening right now: I think that her statement that, because the political pressure that people seem to be putting on governments right now “doesn’t seem to be working and therefore is reason for us to not try” is so closed minded. Sometimes change takes years to be created through political and protest movements that have Been going strong for decades. just because results don’t happen immediately does not mean that we should stop fighting for what is right. I think that statement of hers was lazy and really just a scapegoat way to denounce protesting, boycotting, and international pressure that people have been putting on political leaders. Disappointed is an understatement.

[mikeyfuckinway]

honestly idgaf about anyones personal feelings about israel, if youre a figure with any kind of reach you shouldnt be making any public statements other than condemning genocide and supporting palestinians. your feelings can be discussed in private with your friends, they dont matter on the public scale and only serve to introduce nuance into a situation that should have none. theres no room for nuance when one nation is committing genocide

[tired-and-procrastinating]

Contrapoints Palestine statement was abysmal, and frankly she would have been way better off shutting the fuck up lmao.

The insane privilege to be like "sharing images of Gaza is too much" how do you think those LIVING in the deaths and destruction are doing Natalie? It making you uncomfortable is kinda the point. If you can't handle it log off for a while, go for a jog, talk with your therapist, etc but don't whine online about how hard it is for a privileged wealthy white westerner to see the conditions in Gaza holy fuck- it is SO out of touch.

And then there is what I can only describe as "the online left boogey man" she spoke of, where somehow the online left do nothing and only support doomed causes, but also led to the Democrats losing the election? It is a bizarre and politically inept take. The online left didn't make the Democrats lose, the Democrats did through their awful campaign, lack of action, unlikable candidates, and lack of policy positions. The online left she also suggests are the ones spreading images of the genocide in Palestine- when that is done 1) by Palestinians themselves, and 2) by their massive support network.

It really speaks of how out of touch Natalie is that she implies support for Palestine is an "online leftist" thing, if you had been to even one Palestine rally in the last two years you would see a massive portion of your local Muslim community, trade unionists, students, parents, and other totally regular people some of whom were politically radicalised because of Palestine! That is a powerful thing that we have accomplished and will on day lead to the freedom and liberation of the Palestinian people- just because it can't be made perfect right now does not mean we are doing nothing and not making real impacts to Palestinians.

Then there's her statements on antisemitism: antisemitism is on the rise, but blaming the pro Palestine movement for that is insane. Elon Musk a few months ago did an actual Nazi salute on TV and suffered no consequences- the far right is emboldened and is acting like it- that is where the antisemitism is coming from overwhelmingly. Why are anti Zionism and antisemitism linked so often then you might ask? Because Zionists constantly use antisemitism as a shield from criticism of their settler-colonial political system!

Contrapoints/Natalie has a realllly shit understanding of how social movements work, how political power is built, and is constantly using her platform to reinforce liberal Zionist talking points. Changing the conversation from the inherent evils of Zionism and their active genocide to "concerns" about antisemitism and political viability.

[handsomesangel]

contrapoints is a zionist. every time she posts about palestine on twitter its literally just her minimizing it. dont know why people still like her

[mywitchcultblr]

This is what happen when people take the 'your brain doesn't mature till 25' pop-sci too literally and just ran with it, also transphobia

[j-3lly]

contrapoints fully coming out as a two-state solution liberal zionist wow there are no redeemable yankees

[maaarine]

"In her book "Girls Who Like Boys Who Like Boys", Lucy Neville argues that male-male erotica, Boys Love, slashfic, yaoi are very popular among women in part because they make more space for versatility and fluidity than heterosexual conventions will allow.

If women were submissive by nature, why would they sexually identify with men to this extent?"

Source: Twilight | ContraPoints

[notaplaceofhonour]

I think Contrapoints misunderstands a lot about the conflict, and internalizes some really harmful beliefs as a result, but her diagnosis of issues with the explosion of post-10/7 Anti-Zionism are generally correct, if incomplete.

She’s correct about people just wanting others to join their chorus of anger, and reading any hesitation, refusal, or nuanced/partial disagreement as full-throated endorsement of what they’re angry about—and the extreme backlash to her post is further confirmation of just that.

She’s correct about the fact that broadening the goals from protecting Palestinian civilians to the wholesale destruction & demonization of Zionism as “genocidal fascism” doomed the Pro-Palestinian cause by shrinking the coalition and tying it to politically infeasible goals.

She’s correct about the negative impact of this rhetoric on Jews, that most Jews are Zionists, and about there being a history of antisemites dogwhistling their hatred of Jews as opposition to “Zionism”.

But she’s wrong about this being new or external to the Pro-Palestine movement; it was true of WOL, SJP, JVP, et al (and the terrorist orgs they carry water for: Hamas, PFLP, etc.) before 10/7—they’ve just enjoyed an explosion of popularity these last couple years. That explosion in popularity is just when it came into view, so it seems new to her.

As I’ve discussed before, central narratives to the Anti-Zionist movement (such as the allegation of a Zionist plot to genocide the Palestinians) are not new, and can be traced all the way back to The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. This isn’t something external haters are bringing into the Pro-Palestine protest movement; The Protocols are taught in Palestine by Hamas as historical fact—as they were in Germany by the Nazi Party, for the same reasons. It is a stochastic narrative meant by antisemites to drive people towards the exact extreme behavior Contrapoints is noticing, to drive people towards terrorism and towards Hamas.

So she’s wrong to frame the Jewish & Israeli understanding of the violence of 10/7 and the “Student Flood” (built around a narrative from The Protocols)—that they are inherent existential threats—as a “panic” or merely a rightwing thing. The roots of the problems she is rightfully critiquing here actually go deeper than she realizes, into the very narrative she herself believes.

Ultimately, I think she might be reachable. If she can be disabused of the notion that we’re just panicked and acting out of fear and vengeful hatred. If she can understand that our perceptions of the conflict actually come from a deep understanding of its history and propaganda used within it, rather than being manipulated by fear.

[nataliewynn]

Join me on the path to Twilightenment

[drdemonprince]

"noncon fantasies are a way to imagine the fulfillment of the desire for sex, while disavowing that very desire"

yeah sure, great theory, for many it is! but what about those of us for whom it is not the sex we want at all, but the violation itself? i dont have hypnosis sex fantasies for the sex, but for the hypnosis! i dont have forced sex fantasies for the sex, but for the forcing! many of my fantasies do not involve sex at all, but do involve some kind of deep violation.

the claim that people only fantasize about rape to cope with the shame of wanting sex has always felt so alienating to me. im not ashamed of wanting sex. i dont especially want sex. what i want specifically is something i do not want. i want the pressure, the alarm, the confusion, the dissociation. i want that stuff actually, not in a thinly veiled play-acting way as a precursor to sex. if it doesnt actually feel like a violation, i dont much like the sex.

it's just so frustrating to me when people act like nobody genuinely just has dark desires, that its all just a thin ruse to cover up an interest in vanilla sexual activities. some people do that sure. but us actual fetishists do exist.

[creature-wizard]

I'm watching the Contrapoints video on conspiracy theories and she's really nailing it in the section on satanic ritual abuse. She points out that what actual sexual abuser Jeffrey Epstein did was treat girls and women like commodities (in a very unceremonious way, according to survivors), then points out that the myth of SRA "denies the banality of sexual violence by making sexual violence exotic."

[radfemsiren]

I think one of the biggest reasons people think “terfs” are oppressive bigots despite lack of any violent hate crimes is because people genuinely believe women insulting men’s appearances and hurting their feelings is violence.

Take being trans out of the occasion, it’s a common belief that women making fun of male tears or tiny dicks is on the same level as men literally killing and raping women: misandry vs misogyny.

I’ll never forget in Contrapoint’s JK Rowling “takedown” video, all of the “evidence” he had about how evil terfs were was… schoolyard insults. He pulled quotes of different women making fun of male pattern baldness, of stubble poking through foundation. I was like… how is this not identical to Andrew Tate MRAs screaming about how evil women are and how terrible misandry is and just pulling up jokes about male appearances?

Like before you label anyone as a bigot or oppressor, can you do 5 seconds of research and find any evidence of the claim? Women laughing at you is not violence lmao, no matter how much it hurts your feelings