#not related to this post directly but i get now why that one anti was so upset about someone using something they like as a pro-endo thing

[shitty-proendo-blackout-posts]

I will support endos and proendos or systems made without trauma. You exist. Your mind CAN fragment without trauma.

[cheapshrimpysheep]

Silent Treatment

SUMMARY: How would they react to you giving them the Silent Treatment?

CHARACTERS: Demon Brothers (Lucifer; Mammon; Leviathan; Satan; Asmodeus; Beelzebub & Belphegor)

TAGS: Fluff; GN Reader 

WORD COUNT: An average of 540 words per character.

COMMENTS: I remember I had this idea after reading that Mammon had stolen and sold something from MC. MC used STAY on him, but if he did that to me I would be so upset that I would want him to suffer more than that. And I thought about the silent treatment, which would certainly be his worst nightmare. And that's why I thought of making this post. Beel's part is the shortest, but you'll see why.

I hope you enjoy 🤫

CONTEXT: This takes place in the Original timeline and not Nightbringer. So, to make matters worse for them/him, you live with them in the House of Lamentation.

Your argument was probably about Lucifer working too much and you wanting to give him a break. But his stress mixed with pride made him deny this offer in a rather mean and perhaps even disrespectful way.

Does he not want you to bother him? Very well then. What if you never bother him again?

At home, you ignore him. He tries to talk to you, but seeing how stubborn you are he ends up giving up. But this is already bothering him a lot.

At school, if necessary, you will talk to him about importante matters related to RAD as if he were any other student at school. And that's it. Anything else outside of that, you will continue to ignore it.

And that just makes everything worse for him. To have YOU of all people talk to him like he was just any student?! Not only does this hurt his pride, but this small sample of conversation with you makes him miss you more and more. But he will continue to hide it.

The last straw will be at home, when he asks you something directly and you ask one of his brothers to answer for you. Bonus if it's someone from the Anti-Lucifer League. But he must have lasted two or three days without talking to you.

He will lure you to his office, where it all started. Maybe he'll tell you to go get some important papers. You won't see him inside, but as soon as you're close to the desk you'll hear the door closing and locking. And that's when you see him calmly walking down the office stairs to meet you.

“So you decided to give me the silent treatment.” Lucifer says as he walks down the stairs.

“Didn't you want me to leave you alone?” You say, still not looking at him.

“I never said that and you are perfectly aware of that.” He finishes down the stairs and walks over to you. “I just didn't want to rest because I needed to finish that.” You don't answer him again. He already knows what you think about that. Your back is to him and he stops right behind you. “*Sigh* I'm sorry. I know you only want me well. I was just... I shouldn't have talked to you like that. I promise that next time I will consider the break.”

His voice is sad, so you know he was being sincere. But you wanted to see how much he missed you, so you remained silent and with your back turned to him. And he knows you. He knows what you want. He sighs again, more deeply, as if you're making him admit something that hurts his pride.

“Please... I miss you...” You haven't turned around yet. That wasn't enough and it bothers him. You had his desk in front of you.

He rests his hand on the table, leaning on it, and leans in to bring his face closer to yours. “Now you're just teasing me, aren't you?” He was now with that smug on his face. And he sees you give a little smile, which was the sign he understood to move forward. He holds your chin and makes you face him. “You missed me too, didn't you?” he whispers near your lips “You little tease.” And he kisses you passionately and provocatively.

Mammon probably sold something of yours. Or maybe another things of yours. Of course, you hate it when he does that. So you decide to give him the silent treatment, because you know, you know perfectly well that he won't handle it. There is nothing else you can be so sure about as this.

The moment he realizes what you are doing, he collapses. The day wasn't even over yet. In fact, you were on break from classes.

He even gets kicked out of class for constantly trying to talk to you.

You know how much he hates being ignored and being ignored by you breaks his heart into pieces.

He wants to resolve this as quickly as possible, but not in front of his brothers. He waits for you to be alone in your room.

You hear a knock on your door and you ask who it is.

“It's me, the Great Mammon. I got your stuff back. All of them. Open the door and see.”

You decide to open the door, even if it was just out of curiosity and you see Mammon holding so many things that you can barely see his face. You can see your stuff that he sold and some gifts like a teddy bear, chocolates, clothes, accessories, your favourite nerd/geek/otako related stuff, etc... You let him in and put all that on top of your bed.

“I got it all back! But, um, you don't mind if some of them are new right? I also bought you more things. These are your favourite chocolates, right? And you really wanted this plush, didn't you?”

You remain silent, looking at him with your arms crossed. This already happened once and he sold your things again.

“I won't sell your stuff again, I promise. You can hit me with your stay if I ever do it again.”

You turn your back on him and go do something, like homework for example. You went back to ignoring him because he used that excuse before.

“Please hang me upside down like Lucifer, use your stay on me at full power, but please stop ignoring me.” he sounds desperate.

You sit at the table you have in the room behind the bed. Continuing to ignore him. The next scene you see is him kneeling next to you, his head at the same level as your thighs, and looking at you like a puppy with tears starting to come out of his eyes.

“Please. I never thought this was so bad. I can't stand not having you anymore. I miss your voice. I miss your laugh. Damn it, I miss you yelling at me.” He places his chin on your thigh, looking at you. “Please, talk to me again~”

You can't take so much cuteness anymore. “Don't sell my stuff again! You hear me, you idiot?!”

His face lights up. "Am I forgiven?"

“Yes, for now you are.”

He gets up and hugs you, showering you with kisses. He won't leave you alone for the rest of the day.

Levi would hardly do anything that deserved the silent treatment. He practically idolizes you, he would never do anything to hurt you. So, something like this would definitely have been an accident.

He had arranged a date with you. But then an Ruri-chan's event came up and he ended up going to it instead of going to you. He got the dates wrong and thought the date with you was the next day.

And he only realized this mistake when the next day he sent you a message asking where you were and if you had forgotten about the date, and you replied that he was the one who forgot that the date had been the day before.

After that, you are bombarded with messages apologizing and saying how much of a complete idiot he is and doesn't deserve you. You don't respond anymore, which leaves him in a dilemma to decide whether to go to you or never see you again because you don't deserve to hear the excuses of someone as pathetic as him.

But he has to do it! He has to apologize to you in person! Even if it means you telling him to his face that you never want to see him again. He would deserve it anyway.

You hear a knock on your bedroom door. The moment you open the door, Levi kneels down and places his forehead on the floor.

“I am so sorry! I'm an embarrassment of a partner. I don't even deserve your forgiveness. But I needed to show you my regret.”

Maybe you were already feeling a little bad for him, but you were also curious to know how far your silence could take him. You turned away from the door, gesturing for him to enter your room.

He enters with mixed feelings, on the one hand he was afraid of what you could do if you wanted to punish him. On the other hand... wasn't he kinda into those things?

But no, you just sit on the bed and use your cell phone to send a message to Levi, asking why he missed the date the day before. You still needed to talk to him, but not yet with your voice that he loves so much. When he happily tells you that it was because of Ruri-chan's event, you look even more upset.

“N-N-N-N-NO WAIT! I'm so sorry! Exchanging you for anyone else, even Ruri-chan is unforgivable! I should have warned you. I wanted to tell you, but it was all so short notice.”

You still didn't say anything and even crossed your arms with a sulky expression. He kneels at your feet and gets so close to your legs that he could even hug them.

“I know that what I did was a complete betrayal, and a wretch like me doesn't deserve another opportunity, but please, just let me hear your voice one last time, even if it's to say that you hate me.”

And you finally break. You know he didn't do it out of spite and you've already punished him enough. You know you're practically torturing him at this point.

Regardless of how you say or show that you forgive him, he will praise you, maybe even cry and if you let him hug you, he will cling to you desperately.

Satan was probably on a bad day. A really bad day. That kind of day where anything irritates him, even you trying to calm him down. And he ended up saying what he would regret the moment you left his side: He told you to shut up.

And that's what you did, but for longer than he was expecting. He realized you were giving him the silent treatment when he came up to you to ask if the two of you could talk alone, so he could apologize to you, and you acted like he wasn't there. He was upset at first, but soon after he realized that that was exactly what led to this situation.

He won't try to talk to you in public again. He's prideful too. He'll wait until you two get home, and you are alone in your room.

You hear a knock on your bedroom door. When you open it, you see Satan with a big bouquet of flowers in his hands. Either they're your favourite flowers, or your favourite colour or anything he knows you would like.

“Would you allow me to speak to you, please?” He wasn't angry, he was sorry and you could see it in his eyes.

You don't answer, but you let him into your room. If you pick up the flowers, he'll be a little more relieved. But if not, he'll put them on the table and get a little more worried.

“I'm so sorry. I should never talk to you like that. I regretted my words the moment you walked out the door. I realize what you are doing, you are doing what I asked you to do, and it tears me apart. I'm not mad at what you're doing to me, I deserve it and worse.” He kneels in front of you and bows his head. “But please tell me what I have to do for you to forgive me. Because no words can mend the ones I used.”

If those words weren't enough for you and you're feeling like he deserves to "suffer" a little more for the way he treated you, you send him a message (he still doesn't deserve to hear your voice) saying that if he's really sorry about that, he could be your cat butler for a day.

He lifts his head and looks at you, blushing slightly. “With a condition: It will be for your eyes and your eyes alone! No making me go to the kitchen or something while any of my brothers is there!”

And if you agree, he will do it. Any request he will fulfill. If you tell him to end his sentences with "Nya" he will do it, partially embarrassed but partially enjoying it.

And at the end of the day, when you finally let him hear your voice again saying that you forgive him, but that you hope it doesn't happen again, he smiles, kiss your hands like a gentleman and asks permission to hug and kiss you again, after so long.

There's a good chance you decided to do this because you started seeing Asmo with more and more succubuses and incubuses.

Well, if he likes being with them so much instead of you, let's see what happens if you prefer to talk to the other brothers instead of him.

He starts the day with no idea what you've decided to do, so he compliments everyone, especially you. And the moment you don't greet him back he knows something is very wrong.

He cannot, nor does he want to, hide how devastated he already is. Of all the demon brothers he is the one who loves attention the most and not getting it from YOU is the worst thing that could happen to him.

In return, you will have ALL his attention. He won't leave you for a second. He needs to know what happened, even if he has to make a dramatic spectacle at your feet.

He will speak to you in the sweetest of voices, calling you all the affectionate names he knows of, even if he has to do so in other languages. Hon, honey, love, darling, Mon cher, mon amour, mi amor, amore mio...

If you just want to talk to him at the House of Lamentation, you'll have to ask the other brothers to basically be your bodyguards. Which will only make the situation worse for Asmo. And more fun for his brothers.

When you get home you tell one of the brothers to tell Asmo that when you are available to talk to him you will send him a message.

You were alone in your room when you sent the message to Asmo saying that you could "talk" in your room. Not a second had passed when he knocked on your door, almost as if he had been waiting in the hallway that entire time.

He’ll walk in like a happy puppy whose owner has finally opened the door for him. He will try to hug you, but you can't give in. You stray, cross your arms and looks in any direction other than at him.

“Why are you being so mean to me?” he asks in that cute, sad voice. “What could someone as cute as me have done to deserve this?”

To continue guarding your voice until he deserves to hear it, you write and send him a message. In it you talk about the succubuses and incubuses with whom he took a ton of photos and posted a bunch of stories, and it started to be much more than normal.

“Aww, my little sheep is jealous, that's so cute!” You turn your back to him. “HA! NO! Wait! I'm sorry! I'm so so sorry! I thought you knew that you are the one I love the most in all three worlds. I love you almost as much as I love myself. I couldn't say no to my fans. Oh, I know! What if we spend a whole day together? What if we went on a special date? I can prepare everything! I'll reserve a table at your favorite restaurant. I can even buy you new clothes if you want.” You turned back to him, but still didn't say anything. “Pwease, talk to me again~ I'm sowwy~”

If you accept his apology and tell him so with your voice, he will hug you and kiss you al over your face. “Ahhh! I missed you so much~!”

Honestly, I can't imagine a single scenario where Beel would do something that would deserve the silent treatment. He's the type to apologize even if it's not his fault. Even if he ate something of yours, he would apologize in the next second.

So, most likely, you and Belphie were just curious to know how Beel would react. And this would probably happen after you had done this to everyone else but him and his brothers wanted to know how he would react.

At breakfast he greets everyone, but you're the only one who doesn't greet him back. And you already feel horrible because you can feel his sad gaze on you.

"(Y/N)? Is everything okay?" he asks in an already apologetic voice. You still don't answer him, and that hurts so much, poor thing.

The other brothers tell Beel to start eating otherwise everyone will be late. But he says he doesn't want to. And everyone looks at him in amazement, except you. He is looking at you and only you, no one else matters, not even the food.

“Are you angry with me? I'm sorry. I'm not sure what I did this time, but I'm sorry. Did I eat something that was yours?” You still don't respond but you're almost at your breaking point. “(Y/N)?” He says your name in the cutest regretful voice that only he could do and you break down.

You turn to him and hug him, apologizing. You explain that he didn't do anything and explain that everything is fine. If you offer him the rest of your breakfast he will be very happy.

But he will be much closer to you for the rest of the day. It hurt him a lot and he just wants to make sure that everything was really okay. He will really like it if you two cuddle a little when your back home.

What could he do to make you mad at him? *cough* Lesson 16 *cough*. Anyway. There's a good chance he's been a little more selfish lately. Always wanting your free time to be spent with him, and try to convince you to fall into the temptation of laziness and exchange your responsibilities for him.

He needed to learn a lesson. He needed to value you more and realize that you are not a guarantee. Let's see what happens if he no longer has you.

He realizes something is wrong when you don't respond to him.

He tries to convince you to talk to him by being cute. That younger brother cuteness that he always uses against his brothers.

When he realizes that this isn't going to work, he isn't exactly going to give up. He will stop trying to convince you with words, yes. But he won't leave your side. He will be almost like a ghost behind you. At least until you all get home.

You'll have to lose him or convince his brothers to help you if you don't want him to follow you to your room the moment you get to the House of Lamentation.

If you manage to do this, you will be bombarded with messages until you finally respond saying he can come talk to you in your room.

He knocks on your bedroom door like he normally does. As soon as you let him in and close the door he will get extremely close to you, but he won't hug you no matter how much he wants to. He knows that could make the situation worse.

“So, what happened?” he asks close to your ear and in his calm voice. “Why are you upset with me?”

You poke your head in a gesture.

“Do you want me to think? To guess? *Sigh* Fine...” he says pouting sadly. “Um... I know you get upset because I make you late with your work. Sorry. I promise I'll stop being so pushy about that. But, you know I want to be with you.”

That was a good start, but it still wasn't enough for you. You had your back turned to him without speaking.

“You know, it really hurts to see you mad at me like this. I miss you.” and then it hits him. “Oh... that’s it, I miss you. I don’t think anyone likes to be seen as a guarantee, right? I'm sorry, for being so selfish with you. You always try to make me happy by giving in to my whims, I should do the same for you more often... I mean, I will do the same for you more often. I promise.” You turn to him, but still don't say anything. “um... What if... tomorrow, I have to give in to whatever whims you have? But go easy on me, okay?”

You accept the deal, and tell him so. He laughs, saying that he already missed hearing your voice so much. And if you let him, he'll hug you.

“We still have a lot of time until dinner, and I miss your cuddles. You're not going to say you didn't miss me too, right? Come on, just a few minutes. I promise I'll spoil you more than you spoil me, he he.”

If you would like to read more from me, you can find it in my pinned post: INDEX

[wajjs]

i hate batstans who spamming hal jordan tag ughh

I know this is related to the now deleted poorly written post about Hal/Arisia, in which Jason chases Hal threatening to murder him for being a "pedo freak" and Hal is somehow scared of Jason when in reality Hal has no reason to be afraid of him since they're not on the same power scale.

I was saving this ask to post a good answer, but I'm very sick and ultimately it boils down to this:

The infamous "not a child molester" panel is purposefully shared out of context because it has inflammatory language and it's the best way to rage bait people + it prolongs ignorance in fandom circles (already known for never looking at the source material) by not explaining the whole situation like it should be explained.

It is an incredibly scummy thing to do considering how sensitive and delicate the topic is. It is also incredibly telling that it's mostly antis the ones who share this panel out of context and without nuance. Antis LOVE to use words like "child molester" and "pedophile" like they're candy and like these words have no real weight behind them.

I have seen antis pile on a survivor of child molestation for saying they do not agree with calling Hal a pedophile, because in context he's not, and using that accusation as a blanket statement "gotcha!" only helps to water down the complex terms and alienates survivors. I've witnessed antis tell survivors to "get over it" and that "maybe they (the survivors) are the real pedos" for "defending Hal Jordan".

I'm gonna break down the context in simple terms so that it can be understood:

Arisia joins the Green Lantern corps as a preteen/young teenager

Hal consistently, repeatedly, explicitly, calls her "little sister" across multiple issues and treats her like family

Arisia develops a crush on Hal that starts off Innocent and turns into an Obsession

Hal explicitly, repeatedly, consistently, turns her down

When they're trapped in a cave, Arisia cannot take Hal's "no" as valid answer and uses her willpower to age herself up into a full-fledged adult. She must have Hal

I repeat, she's NOT a child. In text, in canon, she's now drawn and written like an adult — a very precocious young adult, yes, but an adult nonetheless.

ONLY AFTER she turns into an adult does Hal show interest in her, and they make out in that cave to then develop their relationship

What's the REAL issue?

I am aware that the context is far from good, but what is most important from it is that the relationship is very clearly out of character within the same run it develops from. Before Steve Englehart, the writers consistently kept an older brother/little sister dynamic between them. Englehart was the one to add the ""romantic"" twist to it and directly contradict not other writers, but even himself. Moments before making out with Arisia, Hal is written turning her down. Again.

This is clearly not a character trait of Hal. This is a self insert situation in which the writer, and with support of the editors, decided to put his fantasy on page. It's not the first time this ever happened in comics, it will not be the last — it just is, unfortunately, infamous all around the internet.

To sum things up before I pass out again from the amount of meds in me:

Hal is not a pedophile. He only develops a romantic relationship with Arisia AFTER she's grown into an adult (in the blink of an eye, yeah). He is not a child molester. Nowhere in the run before or after was that ever a thing. It is beyond me why Englehart wrote that dialogue. Who knows.

His relationship with Arisia has its surprisingly sweet and stable moments, though it quickly deteriorates because Arisia and Hal are at different life stages. They break it off. It was retconned. I repeat, IT WAS RETCONNED. IT'S NO LONGER CANON. And for good reason.

I am TIRED of Batstans, mostly Jason Todd stans, using a clear example of bad writing to bash on a well beloved character. As if Jason hasn't suffered from atrocious writing as well.

Now can we stop with the obvious rage baiting and blatant spreading of misinformation?

short cbr article with a breakdown of events for those interested

[blackbird-brewster]

Meta: Jemily Queerbaiting

With the huge influx of posts saying 'Jemily is gonna be canon', I really appreciated seeing this post because OP was completely correct. I didn't want to write an entire dissertation as a reply, so I'm making my own post with my personal opinion on this. (All sources are noted in footnotes)

Before I began this rant, for anyone who thinks this is anti-Jemily. It is not. I have shipped Jemily for 18 friggin years and that's never going to change. This post is specifically my thoughts about queer baiting.

First off, I need to note that the showrunners (and the cast members who use social media) KNOW what a huge queer following this show has and that's why we got pansexual Tara Lewis in S16 [1]. Which, in itself, was SOOOOOOO important!!! Our first canonically queer main in SIXTEEN seasons was a middle-aged Black woman!!! That's phenomenal. (The fact it was horrible rep, because they instantly ruined her relationships once her queerness served it's plot point is a whole other post entirely)

In my opinion, the 'big Jemily moment' Paget posted about on Twitter [2] (and AJ hinted at during a recent IG live) is simply queerbaiting to get people to watch S17. I know a lot of you are newer to the fandom and I love your enthusiasm, I really do, ship and let ship, but listen, let's be real, Jemily is not going to be made canon. The showrunners aren't going to suddenly say (after 17 seasons) 'Surprise, Jemily is endgame'. This show has never cared about queer rep and now that CBS/Paramount have already ticked their queer rep box with Tara, they won't be in any rush to add any other characters to it.

Please buckle in, I've got a lot of thoughts on this matter --

What is Queerbaiting?

If you aren't aware of what queerbaiting is, here's a good definition:

Historically, queerbaiting has carried two meanings: the first is an act of aggressive heterosexuality to shut down queer subtext on screen while still teasing and catering to the queer audience in advertising, public relations, and fan engagement strategies; the second is an existing homoerotic tension between two characters played up on screen while met with derision by the professionals behind the scenes. [3]

The Medium article quoted here is from 2017, a time when parasocial relationships were really starting to take over social media. In 2024, actors are now only a mention or tag away online, they have direct conversations with fans, and this process has allowed for an even deeper form of queerbaiting.

Oftentimes online, actors are asked directly about certain ships and while some ignore these questions (usually to avoid breaking their contracts or other repercussions), others (looking at you, Paget) choose to instead tease fans about queer ships. She's done this for years upon years and if I've learned anything in the past twenty-years of existing in fandom spaces it's this -- don't hold your breath. In it's original meaning, for something to be deemed as queerbaiting there had to be malicious, or at least, purposeful intent to string queer fans along by teasing them with suggestive content about the ship in question, while knowing this ship will never come to fruition in canon.

The thing to remember is, Paget and AJ aren't the only ones who know about Jemily shippers -- the network and showrunners are well aware of this ship too. When networks/showrunners figure out they have a strong sapphic fanbase, they love to use that to their advantage to get more viewers and higher ratings. Queerbaiting is a goldmine to keep fans watching long running shows, look at Rizzoli and Isles, Supergirl, and OUAT for examples of this.

Jemily and Queerbaiting:

Ever since Emily joined the BAU in S2 (2006), there have always been fans who ship JJ/Emily (shoutout to the old LJ forums!). Way before celebs were just a tweet away from fans, back when all our fics began with disclaimers so we wouldn't get sued by networks, we went to great lengths to keep our fanworks far removed from actors/showrunners attention.

As far as Jemily goes, this reply from Paget in a 2009 interview with TVGuide.com [4] (which has now been deleted from their site unfortunately, but there are quotes on Tumblr still [4.a]) confirmed some fans' worst fear -- the actors had found our fanworks online.

TVGuide.com: Of course, a band of fans want her to hook up with Hotch.

Brewster: I know! I didn't realize that fans make these videos on YouTube? A.J. Cook sent me a hilarious one that made it look like Prentiss and J.J. were having a secret lesbian affair. You know, when Hotch was blown up in the SUV, we shot this scene where he's in the hospital and I'm standing next to him, looking at his bleeding ear. Our director came in and said, "Paget, you're looking at Hotch like you're in love with him. It looks really weird." So now, every day, Thomas [Gibson] and I flutter our eyelids at each other.

This was the first time I recall anyone acknowledging Jemily shippers publicly and at the time (Jan 2009), the show was still in Season Four (just before CBS fired both AJ and Paget [5]). Paget genuinely said it's 'hilarious' that fans shipped JJ/Emily. Even now, I'll see people say 'We know Paget and AJ have seen Jemily fanvids, so they obviously ship it too' -- but those same people rarely acknowledge the full context of the original answer. Paget not only thought JJ/Emily were 'hilarious', but then she doubled down and turned her reply back to how she and Thomas liked to play up the chemistry between Emily/Hotch.

While no one can say for sure which video it was that AJ sent Paget, just knowing they were watching JJ/Emily fanvids sent a bit of a shockwave through the femslash side of the fandom. To some it felt like an invasion of privacy, fanworks are by fans for fans -- knowing the cast were poking around in fandom spaces added an extra layer of worry around what we fans were posting online. Fifteen years ago, it used to be quite taboo for actors to outwardly discuss shipping or other fanon for whatever show they were in, and we fans were usually comfortably removed from the actors altogether.

Of course, now it's the norm for fans and actors/showrunners to co-exist online and interact with one another. This connection has opened new ways for shows to queerbait their fans. Pretty much every show has some form of social media account now and there is no doubt that the people running those accounts keep up with the most popular ships and hashtags. Not to mention that actors are constantly barraged with questions about whether they ship their character with x,y,z, or whether they think a ship should be made canon, etc. These interactions only serve to benefit the shows themselves, because whether the conversation is for or against a certain ship, it's all just free publicity (Why do you think CM now has a TikTok account?)

Every time AJ or Paget say anything about Jemily, the queer side of the fandom loses their minds. But this has been going on for YEARS now and every single time, it turns out to be nothing but social media hype and queerbaiting. Remember this AJ post? [6] Or what about the notorious reply by Paget to a fan, where she talks about how she and AJ held hands under the table 'for the shippers' [7] I've seen this cycle over and over again, so perhaps I am cynical, but I'm not getting my hopes up that Jemily will ever seriously be canon.

It's widely known now, after both Kirsten [8] and Paget [9] have talked about it, that there was an early idea where Prentiss was supposed to be queer, but that was ultimately scraped before it ever made it on screen. For context, please remember, this show has been airing for nearly twenty years. It began in 2005, during the highly conservative Bush administration. Queer people didn't have rights in the US, we couldn't get married, we were rarely protected under discrimination laws, and we could even be fired for simply being queer (in some states). Diverse queer representation on screen was extremely limited to things like 'The L Word' and 'Queer as Folk' (both aired on Showtime, so they were behind a paywall. And as far as tLw goes, that show was extremely male-gaze focused and is horrible in nearly all regards if you try to rewatch it now). As far as prime time shows went, queer rep was even more rare. Which is why Emily wasn't queer from the get-go.

Yes, things have changed since 2006 in terms of queer rep on TV. We have a myriad of queer identities represented in TV and film nowadays, which is why I think it's so easy for newer fans to say 'lf she was supposed to be gay anyway, they should just make Emily queer in canon!' I know this is what fuels most fans' demands for Emily being confirmed queer, and I get it, I DO. I would be all for it! However, I do not, in one hundred years, actually believe that is going to happen after they already canonically queer confirmed Tara in S16. The fact we even got ONE queer character is ground-breaking for this show.

It's also worth noting, that in the time between Paget's departure in 2012 and her return in 2016, she became very active on Twitter. This was when more and more fans began asking her about Jemily and after Kirsten's AfterEllen interview, fans also pushed for Paget to address the possibility of Emily being gay. 'Pushed' is actually an understatement for some of the outright harassment she would receive. (AJ received some of this harassment too, but less so because she doesn't use social media ass often) Back then, neither of them replied to these things directly. Yet, no matter what either woman posted, the replies were full of Jemily stans begging for her acknowledgement. (Did you know 'stan' is literally a term coined for stalker fans?) I remember one time AJ's friend was missing and she posted info on her IG about it, you know what the replies were? People asking her about Jemily. It was genuinely sickening.

Within this context, it was no surprise to fans when Emily came back in S12 , she and JJ's friendship was seemingly erased. The two women were rarely on screen together in the late seasons, plus the writers saw fit to even give Emily not only one (Mark in London, but two, on-screen boyfriends for the first time in the entire series. I personally do not think these changes to Emily's character were coincidence, I saw the hellscape of what people would say to AJ and Paget online and I fully believe that upon Paget's return to the show, the showrunners purposely tried to distance JJ and Emily to dissuade the more abusive side of the fanbase.

Can I prove that, no. But it is the only reason I can think of as to why Emily S12+ seemingly didn't care about JJ anymore, despite their deep and meaningful friendship. I mean, they both CROSSED THE WORLD to go rescue each other in prior canon -- but when Emily comes back, they acted like they barely knew each other. This was even more prevalent in S16, when JJ's main storylines all revolved around Will, and Emily barely looked at JJ in the entirety of ten episodes. (Remember how Prentiss didn't even hug JJ after bomb, but she did go hug Luke?)

So, do Paget and AJ earnestly ship Jemily, or are they continuing the long tradition of queerbaiting us? Who fucking knows, not me. But based on the history of this fandom, I think I can make a safe bet. (Interestingly, if you search all of Paget's twitter for the word 'Jemily' [10] she only has 3 direct tweets mentioning the ship. I don't think it's a coincidence that two are within the past few months since they started filming S17 (the other one was a RT of Kirsten (who tagged something Jemily)

This is all to say --

Just because Paget and AJ have publicly talked about Jemily,, this doesn't mean it's ever going to happen on screen. And you know what, THAT'S OKAY!! There has been this constant outcry (after Tara became queer confirmed) of 'Do Emily next' or 'Why wasn't it Emily with a girlfriend!?' and 'Jemily needs to be canon in S17!' -- as if people believe their ships aren't worth anything unless they are canon.

That couldn't be further from the truth! Fandom is built on headcanons and fan interpretations and rare pairs and all types of shippers. Your ship does NOT need to be canon for you to enjoy it. I will ship Jemily forever, no matter what. I don't think there will be some magical queer plot in S17, at best, we might actually get to see Emily/JJ on screen together again and after the train wreck that was S16 -- I'll take whatever I can get.

And hey -- if I am completely wrong, if Erica Messer pulls a Korrasami out of her hat, I will be ecstatic. I will be happy to be proved wrong, but at the same time, I'm not going to lose sleep over it and I'm DEFINITELY not going to go hound the actors about it on social media.

Sources:

[1] 2022 Digital Spy article about the importance of Tara's coming out

[2] 04/18/24 Paget Tweet

[3] 2017 Queerbaiting article from medium.com

[4] 2009 Broken TVGuide link

[4.a] Tumblr quote from the above TVGuide Interview

[5] 2010 Kirsten interview screenrant.com

[6] 2019 AJ Instagram Post

[7] 2020 Paget video on Twitter (via @karasluthqr)

[8] 2015 Kirsten interview AfterEllen.com

[9] 2016 Paget Interview CriminalMindsFans.com

[10] @PagetPaget search 'Jemily'

[idkjustlemmedrownlikerab]

Midnights (Marauder's Version)

Welcome back to the new series by @marsmarauders and I. Obviously we got carried away again but here you have every single song from Midnights related to the Marauders characters :D

So we present to you... Midnights (Marauder's Version)

Lavender Haze

“The 1950s shit they want from me, I just wanna stay in that Lavender haze"

Like this song is very obviously Jily falling hopelessly in love with each other I don’t think it needs to be further elaborated

Maroon

“When the silence came, we were shaking, blind and hazy, How the hell did we lose sight of us again?"

Wolfstar, but specifically like… November 1981. The vinyl reference, "the lips I used to call home," "laughing with my feet in your lap," and "the rust that grew between telephones" signifying how they weren’t communicating well and hiding things from each other "I see you everyday now" cause Remus sees the sky and what just so happens to be in the sky? Stars. Sirius also sees the sky from his prison cell and what does he see? Oh that’s right the moon!

Anti-Hero

“When my depression works the graveyard shift, All of the people I've ghosted stand there in the room”

We had two theories for this one first being Regulus bcoz of the self deprecating vibe and “I'll stare directly at the sun (James) but never in the mirror”

But we could also see it as Mary post-war? It's hard to describe why, but everyone sees her as the Anti-Hero cause she saved herself even tho she had full right to do that

Snow on the Beach

For this one I was utterly confused and absolutely useless and Marls came up with this interpretation herself

"Can this be a real thing? Can it? Are we falling like snow at the beach?"

This song is Sirius's perspective specifically during the wolfstar forgiveness phase after the prank. "You wanting me tonight feels impossible".

You're On Your Own, Kid

"You're on your own, kid, You always have been"

Both of us agree that this song screams all the Black children because none of them chose this town (family) and dreamt of getting out, I mean the whole song recounts a young person who longs for love but eventually understands that they are on their own and always have been afterall whatever you do you can never escape the black family curse can you?

Midnight Rain

“He was sunshine, I was midnight rain”

I mean do I even need to say anything? Its jegulus bcoz they r the literal definition of opposites attract even tho they loved each other they were born on two different sides of a war which inevitably became the reason of their end.

Question…?

"Can I ask you a question? Did you ever have someone kiss you in a crowded room"

Dorlene. That’s it, like we have no explanation, just vibes.

Vigilante Shit

"I don't start it but I can tell you how it ends, Don't get sad, get even"

Both of us agree it could be both Regulus or Dorcas because canonically Regulus knew about the horcruxes, and died while deceiving the dark lord and on the way to kill him (also bonus bcoz the final blow which made him take this decision was bcoz Voldemort exploited Kreature so Reg decided to get even) Dorcas on the other hand canonically had to be killed by Voldemort himself because she was posing as too big a threat to his empire

Bejeweled

"Baby love, I think I've been a little too kind, Didn't notice you walking all over my peace of mind"

Lily about Severus and how even tho she  mourns and misses her friendship with him, it will never be worth more than her self respect and how she won’t let him walk all over her, a diamond’s gotta shine afterall ;)

Labyrinth

"Uh oh, I'm falling in love, Oh no, I'm falling in love again, Oh, I'm falling in love"

To me this song is sooo obviously jegulus coz of the chorus alone, its James realizing that he’s falling in love again, this time with Regulus after pining after Lily for years. Just how when he thought he was “unlovable” and it was all doomed this sickly, victorian looking, snarky slytherin boy swoops in and steals his heart right out of his chest

Marls has her own hc for Emmary tho where basically Mary was in love with Lily but it was unrequited and then she had a situationship with Emmaline but ended up catching feelings which is so perfect for this song

Karma

"And I keep my side of the street clean, You wouldn't know what I mean"

Again I had no opinion on this song coz it felt like too happy and too upbeat a song for any of these miserable sods (I still love them ) but Marls swooped in with a brilliant interpretation which was that its from Dorcas’ pov to the slytherin trio basically throwing shade at them for choosing to stay and join the death eaters instead of leaving and fighting for the “right” side like her

Sweet Nothing

"They said the end is comin', everyone's up to somethin' I find myself runnin' home to your sweet nothings"

Now for this song we had differing views with me being a jegulus girlie while Marls being a jily girlie (we still love both the ships tho, we just have a preference)

To me the song is jegulus coz I see it as them expecting the inevitable end of their relationship and doom due to the impending war and their family’s differing views and them just trying to tune everything out to spend their limited time together and in love.

On the other hand Marls interpreted is as to when the Potters were in hiding with only each other and Harry for company. How they could see that the war was on full ride and they were at the centre of it while still trying to create some sweet and happy memories with their son

Mastermind

"I laid the groundwork, and then, Just like clockwork, The dominos cascaded in a line, What if I told you I'm a mastermind?"

(Try and tell me the whole bridge doesn’t scream Regulus Arcturus Black.) To me the song is about Regulus because the man literally was a mastermind, while being a death eater he planned to betray Voldemort by destroying a horcrux and he was actually successful in retrieving it tho maybe I’m a little biased due to his characterization in the fic only the brave (Marls also thinks the song could be about James bcoz of the bridge "To make them love me and make it seem effortless")

The Great War       

"I vowed I would always be yours, 'Cause we survived the Great War"

Marls didn’t really have an opinion on this one but for me it was very clearly wolfstar. First reason obviously being the fact that they are pretty much the only couple who actually survived the war (the first one that is, we all remember how the second one went). "Somewhere in the haze, got a sense I'd been betrayed" being how they both thought the other was the spy and the prank

Bigger Than The Whole Sky

"Every single thing I touch becomes sick with sadness, 'Cause it's all over now, all out to sea"

Now this could go two ways one being the black brothers,

"Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye, You were bigger than the whole sky"

Basically how Sirius feels when Regulus gets the dark mark. Because his brother is too far gone

Bonus since Regulus dies literally all out at sea

The other being marylily bcoz of

"What could've been, would've been, What should've been you"

"And I've got a lot to pine about, I've got a lot to live without"

Obviously from Mary’s pov since Lily is dead

Paris

Now Marls had no idea about and I suggested rosekiller just coz of vibes and coz

"I wanna brainwash you, Into loving me forever"

This seems like something Barty would definitely say

High Infidelity

"You know there's many different ways that you can kill the one you love, The slowest way is never loving them enough"

To me this song is bartylus coded (don’t worry they then get together with Evan and James and have a happy relationship) especially coz of this one specific rosekiller microfic I’d seen if I find it I’ll reblog it with this post

Glitch

"In search of glorious happenings of happenstance on someone else's playground, But it's been two thousand one hundred and 90 days of our love blackout"

We agreed this song gives off wolfstar vibes tho we are open to suggestions

Also 2190 days is six years which is around the same amount of time wolfstar dated if we hc that they got together around their 5th year :D

Would've, Could've, Should've

"If clarity's in death, then why won't this die?, Years of tearing down our banners, you and I, Living for the thrill of hitting you where it hurts, Give me back my girlhood, it was mine first"

Now this track could be taken in many contexts I like the interpretation of it being from the Black children’s perspective to their parents

And another one being from Remus to Greyback

"And if I was a child, did it matter, If you got to wash your hands?"

Marls also suggested it being from Narcissa’s pov to Lucius or Bellatrix, regretting not going with Andromeda which also fits wonderfully

(Since it in itself is talking about the person suffering due to a relationship when they were young and it even now haunts them I feel like this song could be interpreted many many ways bcoz all of the marauders era characters dealt with a lot of trauma at a young age)

Well obviously since most of them didn’t even reach their twenties

Dear Reader

"Dear Reader, if it feels like a trap, You're already in one"

 Peter Pettigrew. Need I see anything more?

Hits Different

"In the good in the world, you once believed in me, And I felt you and I held you for a while"

Lily without Snape in her life especially when she starts falling for James

You're Losing Me

"How can you say that you love someone you can't tell is dyin'?, I sent you signals and bit my nails down to the quick, My face was gray, but you wouldn't admit that we were sick"

For this one there wasn’t even a discussion needed it is wolfstar during the first war and we won’t hear otherwise. How even tho Sirius and Remus loved each other, the pressure of the war itself was too much on them especially coz they were so young and also coz of how Peter was manipulating them against the other ("Was it because I'm a werewolf?" "Was it because I'm a Black?" I’m sorry). They could see their relationship was straining, they kept waiting for the other to take a risk, a step to fix it and how even through their suspicions, they loved each other regardless

AAAAND THAT'S A WRAP!! THANK YOU FOR READING THIS!!

Make sure to come back to see Evermore, coming soon! (To a theater near you.)

[patrochillesvibes]

Hey so i remember coming across a post which says that TSOA's patroclus is not too different from the og illiad one. Is that true?/genq

First, I want my readers to go read Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov. When you’re done, come back to this post and read under the cut.

Great! Now having read over 350 pages of a pedophile who lusts after prepubescent girls and tries to explain how his love of them was pure and consensual, I’m assuming you now understand the concept of an unreliable narrator. If you don’t and believe Humbert Humbert at face value, consider killing yourself. The world doesn’t need anymore pedophile apologists.

For the rest of you still alive, keep reading.

Point 1

Patroclus is, at his core, an unreliable narrator.

How do we know this?

The ending scene is Thetis visiting Patroclus and asking him to share memories of her son, Achilles. Being a goddess, she cannot visit her son in the Underworld. She only has his memory to comfort her in his grief over his death. Patroclus, is one of the last people alive she can share memories with.

Thus, the actual book, The Song of Achilles itself, is Patroclus sharing his memories with Thetis.

Now, consider a loved one of yours who has passed away. Got a person in mind? Great. Now I want you to think about them. And also consider the last time you exchanged memories about them. Mostly good memories came to mind, right? Perhaps you skipped over their flaws or reworked them in your grieving mind as having been not so bad? Many cultures have superstitions and cultural/religious practices about being nice to the dead, so I’m not surprised that you only thought of good things.

(But honestly, a loved one doesn't need to be dead for people to wear rose colored glasses and miss red flags and excuse bad behavior etc. It's called bias, sweeties.)

My point? Patroclus told Thetis mainly good things about her son including even embellishing a little. It’s in our grieving nature to do this.

This is why you can’t trust Patroclus.

Patroclus, for a variety of speculative reasons that I don’t want to get into here, will tell you he is ugly, weak, stupid, and a poor soldier. He will tell you he was always respectful of women and didn’t believe in war. He will paint himself as innocent of war crimes. And he will do all of this looking you directly in the eye.

You cannot trust this self-image.

Patroclus has very little screen time in the Iliad itself. We get even less insight into his internal thoughts and motivations.

Because TSoA Patroclus is unreliable at best and we know very little about Iliad Patroclus, it is unfair to say there are exclusively two separate characters and incompatible. It is unfair and even ignorant (from lack of anything below a surface reading of the text) to say that TSoA Patroclus is “out of character.”

Point 2

I have a second point as to why I think TSoA Patroclus and Iliad Patroclus can be read as the same. The majority of Antis hate Patroclus because “MM made him a women.” Here’s a collage I made of quotes from some of the Antis.

Now, why on earth is Pataroclus considered a woman? Or in some cases a related degrading term, twink?

Let’s see...

He wants to be a doctor instead of a soldier.

He is anti-war.

He is soft and emotional about his love for Achilles, even deigning to cry.

All thing are more associated with female characters.

Why? Toxic Masculinity.

It is not masculine to cry. It is not masculine to deeply love your partner. It is not masculine to want to not fight in a war. It is not masculine to have low self-esteem and lack confidence. These things are all unnatural and abnormal for a MAN™ to feel, especially soldiers.

So when you read The Song of Achilles and your takeaway is “Patroclus is a twink” or "Patroclus is a woman/Achilles' wife/Achilles' bitch," you are reinforcing gender stereotypes and gender roles. Nice work 👍

I pity people who have this sexist take on men.

Side Comment

Many patrochilles fans see the main patrochilles works (The Iliad, TsoA, Hades Game) as interconnected. TSoA is the story of the life of Patroclus and Achilles before the war. The Iliad follows and specifically tells the tale of the 9th year of the war. Hades Game picks up after their deaths.

But at the end of the day, your Patroclus hc is whatever you want it to be. You also don't have to like any of the patrochilles media out there. I myself FUCKING LOATH The Iliad. But please don't bring your racist and toxic takes into your defense. If you don't like a thing, just say 'I don't like it' full stop and move on.

[anti-endo-safe-space]

what I've come to understand from endos:

you don't need trauma to be a system, but no one is claiming to be a system, but system isn't a medical term or related to CDDs cause of the google definition of system. you can be a system from autism or bpd or any disorder (this feels so much like saying tourettes can come from anxiety and ADHD and autism, which it cant. you either tic or you don't, it's either tourettes or one of the few other causes. even if you only tic when in pain or stressed, that's still ticcing and it's actually quite common. sorry, side rant.) no one is trying to claim you can have DID/OSDD without trauma or that it's not a disorder, but also a person says it's like LGBTQ+ and a fun identity and this person says they're an endogenic DID system. you can be traumatized and have it affect your system, but your system just didn't form from the trauma (you're...so close to it. plenty of systems actually don't always identify with CDDs despite being diagnosed, it's normal.) anti endo traumagenics lead a miserable life full of hate. trauma is to systemhood and plurality like dysphoria is to being trans (feels like what transID folks say about race and stuff, completely ignoring the nuances of what a "social construct" really is. a gender identity is VERY DIFFERENT from plurality even if plurality existed outside of CDDs.) endo systems are treated so purely by people and it's honestly disgusting how many people are anti endo and it's all cause their plurality forms from something other than trauma even if they do have trauma. it just isn't fair how many system spaces only care about traumagenics. (hm wonder why, almost like cause it's OUR SPACE to talk about OUR EXPERIENCES and endos not being formed by trauma is inherently DIFFERENT and should not be directly compared even if the experience of plurality is the same.)

Like to be serious now, our experiences as traumagenic/CDD havers is always going to be different. So to act like we MUST share a space and be accepting of endos is just...wrong. Of course we are going to not want endos interacting with us when we are talking about OUR EXPERIENCES. Even if they SEEM SIMILAR by the idea of being plural, they function entirely differently. If plurality truly exists and is not just misguided and misunderstood then...our experiences are inherently different. So WHY would you be obsessed with being accepted by traumagenics or be angry when traumagenics so much as say endos dni or assume that every anti endo, endo neutral, endos dni, whatever else is someone flat out hating you. We personally put endos dni on our trauma posts because our experience as a system is tied to something that they can never understand if they are truly not traumagenic. we don't ultimately care if we have endo or pro endo followers or even to care enough to say it's fully not possible. seriously. endos act like we are the exact same except for in our source of systemhood/plurality. when even the idea of our alters/head mates would be entirely different altogether if plurality existed in the way they say it would. but instead I see endos acting as if we are one in the same just with different origins and that's...not right??? Our experiences will always be vastly different from endogenics. It's one thing if individuals are participating in both communities or sumthn, whatever. but endos so often encroach on our community and when we get upset about it, they wanna bite back. Like why just you use such similar terms and names? Why must you be accepted in our spaces when a lot of us trauma survivors are not in a space to accept such a thing (especially with people denying systems altogether, misinformation being spread, us having literal triggers that can be caused by endos)? Why do you NEED to exist within our space??? Why have endogenics ALWAYS done this to an extent??? Why do you NEED to have us be pro endo or okay with endos especially when many of us are dealing with our own issues and are mostly anti endo just for the fact that we feel like our experiences are being "taken" in a way which can happen when you're literally traumatized???

It feels like they forget the nuance of being a trauma survivor and a traumatized system and shit also means many may not want to interact with you or want to validate you as an endogenic while claiming the same or similar experiences, using terms we use to describe our experiences as trauma survivors and traumagenic systems, and often stepping over boundaries and trying to say our experiences are the exact same . And that's okay. The fact is if you are truly plural in an endogenic way or willed your system into existence or whatever, your experiences will NEVER be like traumagenic systems. Cause we never asked for this (even if we are okay with it or pursue functional multiplicity) and the way our systems function are based around trauma and survival, not whatever reason you have. It will ALWAYS be inherently different. And endos don't seem to get that. They seem to forget that we have our systems from trauma and will not function the same way at all and sharing terms and community space as if we are so similar is just inherently wrong. Cause if they truly are plural from not trauma, then their alters, their everything would not function at all like us.

TransID Mention

Don't have much to comment on unfortunately (low social battery), but we agree. If somehow they do actually exist, NOTHING about them is similar (this isn't us saying they exist, we firmly believe they do not exist).

Plurality is nothing like LGBTQ+, nothing at all. Anyone who claims it is seems to be fucking TransID's and sorry but they're opinions don't count here with their fucking "transtraumatized" "transramcoa" "transplural" bullshit.

Again we just want to reiterate, we don't believe you can will a system into creation or anything but just commenting on this. (took us a while to even post it because it took some time trying to figure out if it was pro-endo or not, we've had a lot going on irl sue us)

[alatismeni-theitsa]

Γεια Θείτσα!! Ευχαριστώ για blog σου! It’s kind of sad but many of my older family members are very disrespectful toward Roma people. Like they constantly throw around slurs (I understand now that G***s’y is a slur for aroma people) with the intention of insulting someone, and when we visit family in Greece, they constantly tell me to watch out for them because “they steal things.”I’m sorry if this is an uncomfortable topic or if there’s unrest/controversy around anti-Roma sentiment in Greece. I’m very out of the loop on Greek politics, so feel free to not answer this if you don’t want to. Anyways, my question is: how prevalent would you say, from your experience, is anti-Roma sentiment in Greece? Also, sorry if you’ve already answered this question, feel free to refer me to a tag or another post if that’s the case!

Hello! This is controversial for Tumblr (not for Greek residents, they know what's up) but if we stopped talking about every controversial issue then we wouldn't improve shit, would we?

I want to be 100% realistic here, so I will explain stuff as directly as possible. I'd like you to understand the reason behind the bigotry, and I want you to understand the situation beyond "oooo g*ies steaal". You can't argue for a situation you don't know and the other side (your older relatives) will dismiss your arguments because they will know you don't know.

Naturally, I will mention some negative things some Roma do. It might be convenient for us to remain cuddled and ignore reality while living a more privileged life but this actually won't push us or anyone else to resolve these social issues. Besides, all the things I will mention are things that many Roma speak about, too, because they are aware that what other Roma do affects their own future as well.

Also this is about Roma in Greece and the specific situation in Greece. I ask for people from other countries to not make assumptions on this post about the country if they cannot back them up with experience or local knowledge.

When one speaks about issues in the Roma community it's important how and why they do it. If they do it to insinuate that all Roma people are bad and that they steal, then yes it's an issue. There's also the informative approach, which I will take. I have lived next to and near Roma families, as have some of my friends, and on the street, I had various interactions with them. I have seen firsthand the positive stuff and the issues, and almost everything I will mention here is what I've seen with my own eyes.

To be clear, this blog supports the Roma struggle and the Roma Uprising as the call of "Opre Roma!" describes it. The Roma (or Tsiganoi, as they most often call themselves in Greece) should have the right to education and social acceptance without needing to leave their culture behind. I have the tags #Roma and #Romani if you want to take a look at related posts.

By the way, "Tsiganos/-a" (Τσιγγάνος / -να) is also acceptable for the Roma in 2024 from this year's articles I've read and the Roma videos I've watched. Roma from other countries don't like this word too much, and I get why (it is because the Roma come from the "Untouchable" Caste of North India which is a history of bigotry in itself, and Tsiganos comes from the Greek for "Untouchable"). But each country and Roma community is different. It's not a slur afaik. But if you meet one, it is best to ask them what they'd like to be called because the landscape can shift.

To get the negative stuff out of the way, and then there will be good stuff.

First of all, some context. Traditionally Roma in Greece were involved in various trades but they always lived in their own community in the outskirts of some Greek villages. Of course, people of the same nationality, like the Greeks and the Slavs and the Hebrews and the Turks, usually lived in their own sub-area of a village. But the Roma were a bit more isolated.

The history of isolation goes centuries back because there was a constant self-sustained loop of the Roma being very Roma community-oriented and the outside world seeing them as foreigners. However, in older times, the Roma earned a living by doing all types of hard work more or less in sync with other nationalities and also collecting scrap. The bigotry was there but - at least from what I read - not in an intense way. It was more like "This is a Greek, this is an Albanian".

Unfortunately, in the modern age, most types of jobs they did became obsolete and poverty hit their communities. The old ostracization made it very difficult for them to sustain an income in the new era. In cases of such great poverty, it was sometimes considered acceptable to take from balamoi/gadje/"white people", precisely because of this imbalance of resources and the inherent cruelty of the balamoi towards them. (I mean, who wouldn't do anything to feed their own children?) Some of those attitudes have stuck until our days. Acquiring resources is very important for numerous Roma nowadays and sometimes these resources are not always taken legally.

So, yes, there are Roma in Greece who steal things. Yes, there are Roma parents use their babies and kids on the street to earn money (the babies are used for pity points while the mothers beg, the kids usually beg for money. (Once my aunt saw a baby that didn't look... alive on a Roma woman's bosom). This shows the desperate measures some Roma will resort to acquiring resources (sometimes it's not about survival, just acquisition) but it's also very systematic and it's considered like an "occupation" that brings resources.

Yes, there are a few Roma settlements like ghettos where the police are afraid to go, and there are drug networks and gangs. Yes, a friend had his bicycle stolen by Roma and he saw Roma frequently take the flowers he left on his uncle's grave. Yes, in Athens and Thessaloniki there are Roma markets with goods of... unspecified origin that I have strolled by. These goods were sold all together, and a stand could have album photos of non-Roma families, one pair of wedding crowns (stefana), and other unrelated objects found inside a house and unfortunately, they didn't look like they were taken from the trash. But since people throw all sorts of things away one could speculate that a good amount of those items were just taken off the trash - I, at least, hope so.

I cannot speak to how many Roma are involved in questionable acts but it is a noticeable amount that exists close to them. I suppose it was worse in the old times, or at least the prejudice against Roma was more intense back then and that's why your family believes that it's better to guard yourself in case you meet a Roma on the streets of Greece who wants to sell you something. But I have the sense they do it out of the "stranger danger" mindset (because Roma communities are separated from the rest) and because they learned to hate this group of people with a dangerous intensity.

All people are innocent until proven otherwise and I know for sure that your family cannot prove this unfair generalization about all Roma. They cannot even prove it for the Roma who approach them on the street. Many Roma in Greece "don't look" Roma (aka they don't dress like, or don't braid their hair the Roma way, similar to the traditional NW Indian ways). So Greeks don't "clock" them, and that's why they cannot claim they have a good idea of Roma demographics.

Besides, the biggest Thieves of this country are our politicians, our mafia bosses, our powerful businessmen. They steal millions each year and most of them are Greek. If I started counting the times Greeks have stolen stuff (big and small) we would be here for the next 100 years.

There are various programs for helping Roma families by the Greek state and some private organizations but I feel like the anti-Romani sentiment in Greece is still strong. As you can imagine, the negative sightings a Greek resident can have from Roma on the street can cause many prejudices to build. But of course, there are always two sides.

An ostracised community has various problems and these problems make the others ostracise them even more. Many Roma have found themselves in this unfortunate situation. Greeks rarely give Roma chances so they can improve their social and financial standing. Not to mention, due to all that exterior distrust, some Roma communities remain in their shell and can get defensive toward outsiders - because nobody else will defend them. But this defending behaviour can go out of hand and hurt other citizens (with bullets) who start to see the Roma community even less favourably.

But as I said this super defensive behaviour and pack mentality exists because the state - and the police - won't protect the Roma. Instead, many times they enact extreme violence against them, and then some Roma groups answer with more criminal behaviour. Today it's a chicken and egg situation in terms of who dislikes who, although it is clear that the persecuted side is the Roma people.

One recent example of anti-Roma sentiment is when a 16-year-old Roma stole a car and the police thought it good to shoot him in the head - which killed him. Is a bullet to the head - murder - a proper "punishment" for a teen stealing a car?? And, of course, the policemen were punished very lightly for killing a person, a teen! Roma lives are not seen as important as the rest by the Greek society, the media, the police. But Roma lives are often the most vulnerable on the streets.

I focused on the negative stuff so far to explain the situation but I don't want to end this post without positive examples for a people who have struggled so much.

Roma people work very hard and they will do their very best with the hand they've been dealt in life. They do difficult and low-paying jobs which often have the most risk. They are the powerhouse behind festivals and folk entertainment (e.g. panygyria). They will work the fields and they will gather (and at times sell) crops. If they are not particularly skilled in a trade, they will do simpler things like selling balloons and flowers on the street or offering fortune-telling services.

I admire the zeal with which many Roma want to improve their situation. The struggles might hit them hard but they never give up. Contrary to the gloomy image presented before, many Roma live in peaceful and happy settlements, they have a decent fortune and big houses where they host dancing parties and enjoy family moments with their kids. Their festivities are grand and their music - which often has lyrics that reflect their generational struggles - is sent from the heavens. (Greeks love it and they have incorporated musical elements of it in their own folk music)

Their language is ancient with great significance and very interesting variations even within the Greek borders. Apart from being resilient, they can also be very open, sharing their customs and language online for all to learn - from TikTok to the stage of the Stavros Niarhos foundation. They are very aware of the biases against them and as always they face difficulties with their head high and a healthy dose of humor. A Roma man joked the other day on TikTok "Why does a Tsiganos cry when they watch the Titanic? Because he sees all this metal wasted!" (Many Roma gather and sell scrap metal for a living)

Okay, I think that's it!

I am sorry but I don't want to shy away from the crimes and the difficulties like the Americans who only know how to say "Greece has an anti-Romani sentiment problem", as if the issue can be resolved with good wishes and stardust and doesn't have a complex past and present - which they don't care to learn. They only know how to parrot stuff from textbooks and they couldn't start a normal conversation with a Roma in a million years.

Oh, and if I see ONE disingenuous fuck say stuff like "You say that some Roma steal so you enhance the anti-Roma sentiments" I'm gonna block this shit. Congrats, you earned your White Knight online badge of the day but the problem still exists and ofc you are not going to do anything about it. Greek Roma themselves try to tackle thievery and begging practices (which is the reason why many Roma kids don't attend school) and corruption and abuse within their own communities but I am expected to conceal this when online, and pretend that all is rainbows and roses?

[electricprincess96]

Asking out of curiosity, but why do ya dislike Damian Wayne? I ask this not in a acussitory manner mind, as my only exposure to Damian is in non comics material such as those animated movies he popped up in. More so curiosity cause he seems to be a very controversial character among the main comics fandom itself.

He is controversial. There are a few reasons, some I could change my mind on with better writing and others would take a lot more for me to get behind him. I'll start by saying if you're reading this and are a Damian fan don't continue, you aren't gonna like what I have to say so don't both hate reading for the sake of it.

Firstly the concept of the Bat Family for the most part up until that point was about Found Family. Let me be clear I'm not saying it was sunshine and rainbows and they all got along great all the time BUT it was about broken people finding each other and trying to work together to make a difference. The very concept of giving Bruce a blood son ruins that, you need only look at most Damian fans when the debate on who should be Bruce's successor comes up, they will always say Damian despite the fact he has shown NOTHING to prove he deserves it, their only reason is he's the blood son. While yes being both biological and adopted kids is a thing that exists and most real people can do it and it works most DC writers are not adopted parents and dont know the specifics of how you depict that balance and it shows. It reeks of weird blood purist, anti-adoption vibes that just aren't good. Like the rise in "bad parent Bruce Wayne" towards Jason and Tim and some of the others (not sure he knows Cass's name anymore) conveniently corrolates with demon brats creation. Coupled with the fact on more than one occasion writers have seemed to make it seem like Damian does indeed mean more just cause he's blood related. I just don't like it. I wasn't overly fond of Helena Wayne (although she was better cause she was from another world instead of the canon one) and I don't like Damian for the same reason.

Secondly he was forced as Robin. As I said in a recent post up until Damian the role of Robin had only really been changed when it was necessary. Jason was made Robin because DC wanted Robin to be a kid again but readers liked the storylines they were getting with young adult Dick Grayson so they promoted Dick from sidekick and created Jason Todd. Likewise when Jason died there was no Robin, Dick wasn't about to go back to being Robin and Jason was dead thus Tim was created to fill a role that needed filling. Even Stephanie was made Robin due to Tim being unavailable for a long period of time (i dont remember the specifics but i think it had to do with his family finding out about Robin) so even when she lasted not even a year, she was still filling a vacamcy instead of being forced into a role that was already filled. Damian however was just created. They had not taken the proper steps to develop Tim out of being Robin naturally (and before people come at me with "oh he had plenty of time" Dick Grayson got FORTT YEARS and Damian is coming up on nearing 2 decades so shut up) and thus his creation has directly led to the problem we have right now in DC were we have TWO Robins cause they demoted Tim back to being Robin when Red Robin didn't work out (and 3 batgirls but that ones Barbara Gordon's fault). Coupled with the fact his introduction came right after the revival of Jason Todd thus basically screeching to a halt any real meaningful development that plotline could have had because suddenly DC had a shiny new toy to play with. Damian's creation was a turning point for Batman comics and not a good one, because it contributed to the derailing of multiple characters arcs and plotlines and some have still not fully recovered.

Thirdly his character upon introduction was already redundant. He's a child raised by assassins.... OK well we already have Cassandra Cain. He's a Robin willing to kill and will really test the Bat Fams moral compass. OK well as I said we'd already revived Jason Todd and he was already taking the fight to the Bat on the no kill rule. Literally the only unique thing he had upon introduction was that he was a blood relation to Bruce which I personally do not think should mean anything. But DC starting from that point going forward started to have a horrible undercurrent of blood purity. The only thing I can think that he is semi unique on is being biracial but even then not entirely his since Cassandra is biracial as well AND they never do anything with him being biracial. Plus if they really wanted to they could have reconned one of the existing Robins to be biracial without derailing multiple other characters plotlines.

Fourthly. He's an obnoxious and annoying brat 90% of the time. Like I get it, being raised by Talia (although there's conflicting information on of he was actually raised at all since the timeline does not seem to add up for his age and at one point he was grown in an artificial womb and artificially aged but that's been retconned but the timeline still don't add up if he's not artificially aged somewhat. His back story is a mess I ain't gonna make heads or tails of it) will inevitably result in a very arrogant child afterall Ra's and Talia's egos rival Lex Luthors. BUT they want us to believe at times he can back that up. And I'm sorry I don't care how skilled you are as a child assassin, you are still a child. Like in the Animated movies he should not be able to beat Deathstroke in a straight 1 to 1 fight. He just shouldn't. Both are highly skilled assassins sure but Slade is like 6 times Damian's age, double his size and at least 3 times his weight. There is also the fact that his dark, brooding, arrogant, cruel character sort of worked when he was Dick Grayson's Robin cause it was flipping the established dynamics for Batman and Robin. But when he's Bruce's Robin it doesn't work, we no longer have that little bit of sunshine that Robin is meant to bring to Batman (and don't think I haven't noticed how Batman's character has got crueler and darker since Damian became his Robin) while Batman is meant to be a guiding hand for Robin to keep him on the right track.

Fifthly. For Damian's character arc to really work/make sense ot has to be acknowledged that Talia is not a good mother. At best she's deliberately raising him in a dangerous environment and at worse she is actively abusive. It's the only way you can justify half of his character traits and why he's even here in the first place. Here's the issue for all I dislike Talia as a character... I don't believe she's an abusive mother. One thing that seems to be consistent for Talia was that she did love her family. Talia's flaws for me are in her inability to choose a side and her entitlement towards Bruce and other men (well and the whole worldwide genocide of anyone not League of Assassins). Now I am more willing to accept this one as just being how new Talia is but I don't blame some of her fans who feel miffed about this however they do have to acknowledge that there's no real way to do his story without her either being an incompetent parent or a down right bad one (but don't worry Talia fans Bruce is also awful nowadays so she's not alone there....)

Now his arrogance and overall unlikable character can absolutely be fixed with good writing. I hated him in the Animated movies (kid you grew up in the mountains leaving to kill you SHOULD NOT BE LECTURING BRUCE FUCKING WAYNE ABOUT STOCKS) but I'm quite liking him in Boy Wonder where it's actually tackling his own sense of entitlement and showing that he needs to learn from his predecessors rather than acting like he's better than them purely because he shares dna with Bruce.

BUT the conceptual issues I have won't go away quite so easily. It's why if I'm asked if I could wipe one Robin from existence, it will always be him. He could be written wonderfully, he could get a comic run that is the best written thing ever and I will still always say him when asked that question. And I know I'm not alone on that.

[liskantope]

I think part of the reason I tend to get so argumentative nowadays about "what your side proposes kills people" -type political talking points is that it seems that this is being used more and more frequently as a rhetorical bludgeon, mainly (though not entirely) from the Left. There's a lot of shutting down of arguments based on "but HUMAN LIVES", and it's begun to feel to me like a disturbing trend. For instance, a good bit of the rhetoric in favor of shutting down schools in 2020-2021 seemed to center on "here, look at my computation that the expected value of children's lives lost if we don't shut down schools is greater than zero; anyone who disagrees with us doesn't VALUE HUMAN LIVES", with the effect that a lot of us (including to some extent me) were blinded for a long time to the absolutely devastating effect such extensive school shutdowns (in some geographic areas) had on children and their whole families, an effect that is still scarring them today. I'm not saying anything about whether or how far those school shutdown policies went wrong, just that they had very substantial harmful effects that don't vanish relative to the VALUE OF HUMAN LIVES.

Then there's the now-everyday claim that the anti-trans culture warriors "ARE KILLING US [TRANS PEOPLE]", which is true under a particular interpretation of "killing" and tragically true to an extent pretty well beyond some vanishingly rare extreme cases but is also transparently being used to drown out most other aspects of the debates around trans issues. Much more disturbing still is the accusation I now semi-regularly see casually flung that conservatives "actively want us [trans or LGBT+ people in general] dead" (I think I've occasionally seen left-wing variations on this that aren't even about LGBT+ people). A couple of months ago I called it "stomach-turning" ("it" being both the content of the accusation itself and the fact that so many people in our cultural discourse have seen fit to use it; this of course was semi-willfully misinterpreted by someone as my saying that trans people turn my stomach), and I reiterate now that it's still completely turning my stomach. This example is different from others in some fundamental ways, some of which make me more sympathetic with why people feel driven to use it (and it's not being used to drown out completely unrelated issues, for instance, like the guns thing is), and the general rhetorical weapon of "the other side wants to kill us" deserves its own effortpost which I intend to write later this summer.

So anyway, yeah, I'm also getting a kind of short fuse around insinuations of "what they show kids in school won't kill them, but guns could, so that's the only issue involving schoolchildren that anyone should care about" that I now see daily.

Of course, invocations of "my cause is the one whose stakes directly involve life or death so it outranks everything else" isn't exclusive to the Left at all. The Right has been doing it for decades with abortion to shut down both the abortion debate and whatever unrelated debate they didn't want to have ("millions of babies are being MURDERED each year, while liberals obsess over [women's bodies] [or] [just about any totally unrelated issue which appears frivolous next to MURDER]"). I also vaguely remember something that sounded like this in the post-9/11 years ("we're the ones looking out for Americans who might be KILLED in the next terrorist attack, that has to be the only priority right now"). And there was that bizarre "death panels" accusation around 2010-2011 when Obamacare was being debated which I guess might also count.

Only loosely related, but I'm reminded of a moment in the very first vice presidential debate, between Bob Dole and Walter Mondale in 1976, where Dole invoked a computation of the number of deaths in wars the US engaged in under Democratic versus Republican presidents, and apparently he got a lot of blowback from how underhanded this rhetorical move came across.

[skrunklowumbo64]

DISCLAIMER: Don't engage with a toxic user that's being called out, just block, report, ignore, & move one.

Remember when I made a public apology for making a callout tweet about a certain Tumblr group of IDW Sonic critics (a certain fox was one of them) on Twitter like roughly 2 years ago?

Yeah, I was in good terms afterwards, but a year later, when I randomly saw the edgy sadist fox man wishing death on a comic book writer showing up in my personal Twitter timeline, I took my apology back from him (plus some of his associates overtime) & gave my two cents about it.

The reason why he wished death on a comic book writer was because the satanically evil boogiestans were harassing & doxing his friend who had cancer. You know the old saying, 2 wrongs don't make it right. This isn't the only toxicity thing he has done & I got several evidence to show below.

CW/TW: Excessive Slurs, Bigotry, SH, & SA

(Uncompressed Image Link)

(Uncompressed Image Link)

BONUS EXAMPLES

Plus archived links to his Twitter & Tumblr accounts.

There are way more than what are shown in the images & I can't expect to find them all. Several or so of them are from a few years or nearly a decade ago, but it does prove that he's always been an heartless irredeemable sadist, even before IDW Sonic existed & before you pull that "years ago" defense card, his behavior hasn't changed for the better, like these for example (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11).

What do I think about him?

He's overly smugged, to a point of being arrogant.

He gets overly insecure whenever, for example, any Sonic game gets any criticism &/or negative opinions from people who're either fans of Sonic or not.

Most of his "critiques" are in bad faith.

He has extreme accusatory behavior (I.E. He accuses people of hating Sonic & not playing the games for daring to like anything non-game Sonic related, getting things about Sonic wrong, & making AU fan fics that differs from the games).

He has a habit of blocking anyone over the most pettiest things (I.E. Anyone using the term, Mobius, being told to calm down, people liking transgender Bridget, people liking SnapCube & Team 4 Star (he also wants them banned over it), etc.).

He constantly relies on ad-hominem attacks & vulgar insults whenever he talks to anyone he doesn't agree with, either directly or behind their backs by screenshotting their posts then posting them in his clique chamber to complain about it or both.

He's got this obnoxious Anti-WokeTuber vibes going on despite claiming to be against bigotry.

He gets easily butthurt over people enjoying any non-gaming media or anything in general of not just Sonic, but also Kirby, Castlevania, Dragon Ball, TMNT, & more as well.

He's a massive hypocrite, like for example, he hates anyone making & enjoying non-canon Sonic material while he's faving/making rule 34 fan art & fan fics involving sonic characters voring each other or any other fetishy things (which are also non-canon material).

etc.

If you're wondering if I'm aware about his certain questionable fan fics & favs, I knew already cuz I was the one that caused a chain-reaction on Twitter in the first place by randomly DMing some one rando about it & I honestly wish they shouldn't bring it up whenever they argue with said fox. If you want me to talk about what I think of this Dwai guy nowadays, maybe, but not right now.

How do you think I found out? I just googled the username, checkout their account on some furry site, & went to their profile from some controversial bunny site that's publicly shown on their profile bio out of morbid curiosity. Before you ask, I don't have an account on that controversial bunny site & never will.

My reaction to said content on there was disgust & uncomfortable. I hardly engage with those UCP addict types cuz they're not the most pleasant people to talk to & they're always predictable.

Did you know that he was banned on Twitter seven times, plus all tweets made before 2023 aren't searchable & apparently his first 6 bans had something to do with involvement with you know what? If you're morbidly curious about it, examples here. Remember, don't waste your time trying to argue about it.

The more I see toxicity from him, the more I having trust issues increased & regret making an apology to him, to a point where I think he's too FUBAR to deal with.

If he sees this, he's gonna be like, "TWEEGARD ZNOHVWEHK!", "MUH VWEE ZPEECH/VWEE KONTWEE!", "DOT TEEL MEE WAT 2 DOO!", "PEEOHWEETON!", "KOHTIZT!" "VWEEN/EYEDEEDUBBAHEW STAEN!", "CHUHZT SEH YOO HEHT SAWNIK GEHMZ & GOH!", "YOO HEHT MEE CUZ I KWEETESEYEZD VWEEN!", "CHUHZT PLEH DA GEHMZ!", "SWAENDOHAHR!", "STAHKR & HOHWAZZAHR!" the no you card, strawmanning, "At least I don't (Insert whatever bad thing the stans did)!", ad-hominem attacks, the "Stans are being mean to me!" sob stories, the whataboutisms, screenshotting then whine &/or being smugged about me in his clique-ish echo chamber, & more, guaranteed.

If you're saying I made this because of that one argument or whatever, I always had issues with him before it, not because of different opinions, but because he's the most insufferable individual to talk to due to his arrogant, nihilistic, cuss-happy, & creepy nature regardless if it's about Sonic or not.

For those who're about to ask me to make more callout posts about the people associated with him, I'm not interested & please don't beg me into making them.

If you also have issues with him, share your thoughts here, it also doesn't just have to be about IDW Sonic or Sonic general.

[mionghairearracht]

Oh shit yeah huh... do you think part of the reason why so many teens are anti fiction is because of the mandatory reading in schools so when they get on the internet they don't know how to exercise the choice they now have.

ALSO please check out "does the dog die" for mandatory readings as it has an extensive list of trigger warns and I hope it will help take the edge of atleast!

so like preface that we're on the end of a 4?5? day migraine and not the best with words right now. also pretty much any time you is used it's the general you

honestly we think the whole "force kids to read triggering material with no support or warning" is probably the cause of a ton of media related issues not just people* not understanding that the can disengage with triggering material, or that reading things can trigger you and that's completely independent of morality on anyone's part**

like the whole "you need to keep engaging with current events even if your triggered and/or burnt out" is basically what many people where taught for years directly and indirectly in school and by many authority figures.

kids and teens are constantly told their boundaries around media don't matter and that those bounderies can be violated for education. thus a shit ton of people thinking that the proper way to educate on current issues being expose yourself constantly even if you are triggered is a pretty natural consequence.

this also ties into the whole "people can't do media analysis" yeah no shit. if you are spending most of your time and energy dealing with the effects of being triggered by the thing you are supposed to analyze, you probably aren't actually learning much about the media or how to analyze it, that's what happens when you're triggered repeatedly

and yeah no shit you're going to think analysis is bullshit if your experience is "the thing i was forced to trigger myself into breakdowns to do" because that's fucking bullshit and a disgustingly normalized experience.

basically i think the lack of choice, respect for the bounderies and triggers of kids/teens, and the normalization of what's basically emotional abuse under the guise of education has fucked shit up

also does the dog die is great, i think we actually made a post about it a while ago thanks for reminding us of it

for books specifically we hightly recommend storygraph***. its a book tracking app that has an extensive inbuilt trigger list that users can add with reviews and there are a ton of books from bestsellers to indie and self published on there.

if you want to start reading but worry about triggers its a great resource.

and since this is long enough already, tangents/context notes are under the read more

*in our experience this effects people of all ages, and despite the idea of teens being particularly pro-censorship our experience is that its more a case of specific fandoms just having more young people in general and thus more young people who are pro-censorship (and those people being extremely loud and aggressive in general) driving/drowning out others; and the fact that a lot of pro-censorship groups online vs. offline are pretty different demographics wise and having issues with one doesn't guarantee experience with the other

**often people are taught that not being able to handle certain topics is basically a moral failing or willpower issue of their part, which is not true. this can lead to thinking that the moral failing actually came from the topic that hurt them, also not true.

the real problem was being forced to engage with it to the detriment of health under the threat of varies penalties, but that is a huge complex problem which isn't as easy to grasp or readily apparently

*** we really recommend it if you are a reader or looking for information on books in general not just triggers. its much better then goodreads imo and as a bonus you can actually filter out certain warnings from being shown in recommendations.

[mariacallous]

When long-shot presidential candidate Robert F. Kennedy Jr. announced that Nicole Shanahan would be his running mate, spectators were confused. Why would Shanahan, a wealthy Silicon Valley luminary and tech entrepreneur who has donated heavily to scientific causes and Democratic politicians, throw her lot in with the nation’s foremost anti-vaccine activist, a man who’s claimed that 5G causes “DNA dysfunction”?

But in a revealing video that aired with her campaign announcement this spring, Shanahan talked about her young daughter’s autism diagnosis, and proclaimed that chronic diseases in children are caused by “environmental disruptors that cause inflammatory symptoms which then reduce the child’s ability to heal.” Shanahan’s subsequent podcast appearances quickly made the matter far more clear: She, like Kennedy, has deeply held suspicions about vaccines.

Around that time, she told famed music producer Rick Rubin on his podcast that a lightbulb moment for her came in 2020, after her then 18-month-old daughter Echo was diagnosed with autism. Shanahan told Rubin she had read “every publication, every related publication, every indication, every clinical trial I could get my hands on.” In her telling, this project of deep research led her to a discovery so powerful, so taboo, that she hesitated to talk about it.

“So, medications impact our cellular biology in significant ways, and some medications more than others,” she said. “And in that category are vaccines. And it's hard to say that today, right? And I hesitated for a while to even mention it with friends because vaccines are such an inflammatory topic right now.”

In recent months, in addition to promoting long-debunked ideas about the link between childhood vaccines and autism, Shanahan has also claimed the Moderna mRNA vaccine is unsafe and called for it to be “recalled immediately.” She has a lot of money to bring these views to public attention: While Shanahan’s philanthropic efforts were initially carried out though the family foundation of her then husband, Google cofounder Sergey Brin, she has subsequently funneled her efforts into her own foundation, backed by the billion-dollar fortune reportedly made, in large part, through her divorce.

Shanahan has donated at least $10 million directly to the Kennedy campaign, as well as $4.5 million to two super PACs supporting Kennedy’s run. At the same time, she’s also putting money behind at least one clinical trial that an autism science expert told WIRED they believe is alarmingly vague and poorly designed.

Adding a layer of personal drama is that Shanahan’s ex-husband is taking a quite different approach to the same problem. Multiple sources tell WIRED that Brin’s family foundation is in talks to begin funding serious research on autism and other neurodevelopmental disorders within the next year, something previously mentioned as a possibility in a 2022 Fortune story. (In the autism world, it’s “the worst-kept secret ever,” one person said.)

Brin’s foundation previously donated millions to the Michael J. Fox Foundation before creating an entity called Aligning Science Across Parkinson’s, or ASAP, in 2019. While everyone familiar with the matter stressed that the discussions are still in their early stages, the foundation is expected to support other research with similar largesse, looking for ways to accelerate science around neurodevelopment.

A person familiar with the matter noted that Brin, unlike Shanahan, doesn’t appear to discuss their daughter’s autism diagnosis or treatment publicly. (He also hasn’t commented publicly on Shanahan’s campaign or post-divorce philanthropy.)

In other words, two phenomenally wealthy ex-spouses are poised to become the respective faces of autism philanthropy and autism pseudoscience. This is potentially much more consequential than Shanahan’s candidacy, and the people involved in these worlds are already either deeply apprehensive or thrilled, depending on their perspective.

“Other than Robert F. Kennedy Jr., I have never heard any candidate for major office speak with such clarity, candor, and courage about autism and chronic disease,” John Gilmore, the founder of the Autism Action Network, a group that blames vaccines and other environmental factors for autism, wrote recently.

“Shanahan’s autism knowledge comes from her own lived experience,” he added. And then, in bold, he proclaimed, “Nicole Shanahan is one of us.”

Shanahan has helped fund projects ranging from labs studying female fertility and reproductive longevity to Evolver, a Cate Blanchett-narrated “collective virtual reality experience which drops audiences deep inside the landscape of the body.” These days, though, her true passion appears to be for pseudoscience. This has positioned her as a useful messenger to communicate to the anti-vaccine movement that Kennedy is still with them, even as he’s occasionally and fitfully tried to downplay his long career in that world. Not just a powerful funder and backer, Shanahan is a symbol of his unwavering commitment to the cause.

Many parents develop vaccine injury suspicions after their child starts to display symptoms of autism spectrum disorder or other developmental conditions; those suspicions can take them deep into a world of pseudoscience and distrust. In a 2023 interview with People that focused largely on her divorce, Shanahan described that process for herself.

“I talk to two scientists a week, typically, whether they're neurosurgeons or neurologists or mitochondrial experts,” she told the outlet. “I chat with a lot of other mothers of autistic children because I think mothers are some of the most well-educated and researched … They’re trying some of these autism interventions and they’re able to tell you with greater accuracy than any published medical paper what they’re seeing in their children.”

Despite Kennedy’s and Shanahan’s concerns, though, vaccines don’t cause autism. A huge body of research and evidence, including a major decade-long Danish study of people who received MMR vaccines, published in 2019, has demonstrated that over and over and over. A second theory, that thimerosal, a preservative previously used in some childhood vaccines, causes autism has also been repeatedly debunked. (Thimerosal was never used in MMR vaccines, creating a clear logical issue for anti-vaccine activists who use that argument.) Yet another claim, that “too many” childhood vaccines at once can cause autism, has also been conclusively debunked.

Suspicions like Shanahan’s have nonetheless led many parents to pursue life-changing actions, spending money on bogus treatments for their children and getting sucked into an anti-vaccine movement—of which Kennedy has been an integral part—that monetizes their pain and frustration.

For all of these reasons, promoting anti-vaccine rhetoric on a national political stage could be “extremely dangerous,” says Azza Gadir, an immunologist who’s spent a significant amount of time counseling people and listening to their concerns about vaccines.

“Parents of children that are sick tend to be very angry and despondent and feel guilty, actually,” she adds. “Seeing a candidate running on this platform is going to appeal to people who are looking for answers, especially when they're not speaking in specifics. My concerns are that vaccine rates will go down.”

Some of the science that Shanahan is helping to fund is speculative but potentially promising. According to Politico, she’s donated to the UC Davis Mind Institute, which studies autism and other neurodevelopmental conditions, and in January 2023, she was named as an investor in a company called LinusBio that claims it’s developing technology to examine human physiology and ferret out possible neurodevelopmental disorders through a single strand of hair. The company claims that one of its early technologies “can assess the likelihood of autism at birth with 80 percent to 90 percent accuracy, and assist with personalized treatment decisions.” (The test is not yet federally approved, and Linus’ cofounder and CEO told NBC last year that it should solely be used by physicians as a diagnostic aid.)

But Shanahan is also funding what she described to Rubin as “the first clinical trial in photobiomodulation and autism,” which is scheduled to be conducted at the University of Texas at Austin and overseen by UT professor Francisco Gonzalez-Lima. The $3.7 million grant was announced by the university in May. The study says it will administer infrared light to patients using headbands that emit LED light intended to target mitochondrial enzymes. The study cites previous research to suggest that mitochondrial function is often impaired in people with autism spectrum disorder. (On Rubin’s podcast, Shanahan praised Gonzalez-Lima as a “mitochondrial guru.”)

Alycia Halladay is the chief science officer at the Autism Science Foundation, an organization that funds scientific research on autism and promotes evidence-based interventions for it. She says she believes the study that Shanahan is funding at UT Austin is “doomed to fail.” She adds that she’s also puzzled by how Gonzalez-Lima, who is not an autism researcher, came to be the one who’s overseeing the study, which is listed on ClinicalTrials.gov as “not yet recruiting.” It features a “huge age range” of participants (ages 4-60), which is unusual and not particularly good science, Halladay adds, since autism symptoms can vary so widely across different age groups. “This would likely never be funded in a peer-reviewed mechanism because of the wide age range,” she says. Most well-designed autism studies focus on people experiencing the same kinds of symptoms; a large and vague study tends to be difficult to extract meaningful data from.

“I describe it as driving through Ohio and trying to get a radio signal,” she says. “Sometimes it is all noise. Sometimes you can hear a voice and a song.” (She did, however, praise the fact that the study is a randomized controlled trial, usually the gold standard for experiments.)

When asked for comment by WIRED, Gonzalez-Lima didn’t respond to questions about how Shanahan came to fund the study, but complained that a previous story mentioning his work published by NBC had, in his view, unfairly characterized what he called Shanahan’s “extraordinary intelligence, generosity, compassion and positive world vision” as well as “her generous support of our groundbreaking and rigorous scientific study.”

He also disputed some of Halladay’s points. “Even the US FDA has already given ‘breakthrough discovery’ status to the beneficial use of brain photobiomodulation targeting mitochondria in autism based on recently published and ongoing studies,” he wrote. “Second, autism is a lifespan condition and should be studied accordingly. Third, nothing is ‘usual’ about cutting-edge frontier research.”

Halladay says that while “breakthrough” status has been granted for a wearable LED device for children diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder ages 2-6, it’s to treat anxiety, not to improve cognition and behavioral symptoms, the stated purpose of the Gonzalez-Lima study. (Breakthrough device status is intended to help speed the process of premarket approval; a device still has to be authorized by the FDA before it can be sold to the public.)

The Gonzalez-Lima study says that it will send home participants with light-emitting headbands and have participants report back on their progress. That, Halladay says, is also not very precise, since parents and caregivers often want to see progress that may not be objectively there. “These parents are really desperate for improvement in some way,” she says. The home study will require the participants to wear the headbands, but does not, Halladay points out, spell out any adaptations for autistic children or adults with severe sensory issues who may not be able to tolerate wearing them.

Shanahan is also doing her own self-styled experiments with light at home; she told Rubin this spring she’s attempting to repair her daughter’s own mitochondrial function that way.

“I have my daughter swim while the sun is still rising because as the sun rises, the wavelengths are a bit longer,” she told him. “I'm no expert in this, but they're easier for our bodies to absorb. And the light from the sun is incredibly healing. And it's almost like morning sunlight in particular is like chicken soup for metabolic health, for mitochondrial metabolism.”

As NBC News’ Brandy Zadrozny noted in her recent profile of Shanahan, much of this focus on light seems to be due to Shanahan’s affinity for Jack Kruse, a neurosurgeon who dove down his own rabbit hole in 2007 following a knee injury and came out of it convinced that “man-made light” is the cause of a variety of diseases and mitochondrial dysfunctions. Zadrozny reported that it was Kruse who told Shanahan that she was responsible for her daughter’s autism because of her exposure to vaccines and artificial light. (Kruse has also tweeted about the conversation, saying that Shanahan was “all ears and had an open mind.”)

Kruse did not respond to a request for comment from WIRED, but according to his social media posts and podcast appearances, he’s a bitcoin enthusiast and vaccine- and sunscreen skeptic now partially based in El Salvador, who promotes Great Reset conspiracy theories and thinks Covid was a “compliance test” to execute a “financial coup” on American citizens. Kruse has effusively praised Shanahan as the right choice for vice president because, he claims, she’ll have the ability to combat the evils of Big Tech.

“She knows what her ex is capable of,” he proclaimed on X, referring to Brin. “She also knows how to deal with their policies.”

Shanahan emerged from her divorce with both a lot of money and a seeming desire to be taken seriously in her own right as a founder, investor, and someone with an interest in science. She already had an impressive legal résumé: a graduate of Santa Clara University School of Law, she’s been a fellow at CodeX, the Stanford Center for Legal Informatics. She’s also the founder of ClearAccessIP, a patent-valuation and management company that was acquired by another company in 2020.

In addition to autism research, Shanahan had also already begun building another identity for herself, as a funder of research on extending female fertility and an ardent opponent of IVF. Her foundation Bia-Echo, acccording to tax records, was founded in 2019 with a $23,148,744 donation in shares from Brin. It has focused primarily on criminal justice reform, addressing climate change through regenerative agriculture, and women’s reproductive longevity.

Shanahan has said in many interviews that she and Brin struggled to conceive, and that she was identified as a poor candidate for IVF due to an earlier diagnosis of polycystic ovary syndrome. (Shanahan has said on a podcast that she was later able to conceive without IVF, through the use of “liver cleanses,” acupuncture, sleep, and “lots of fruits and vegetables,” among other things.) She came to believe that IVF was unscientific, marketed to women for commercial reasons.

“It became abundantly clear that we just don’t have enough science for the things we are telling and selling to women,” she told the Australian Financial Review, adding, “It’s one of the biggest lies that’s being told about women’s health today.”

This role of an audacious founder who bucks conventional wisdom seemed to agree with Shanahan. In 2019, she traveled to speak in Washington, DC, to the National Academy of Medicine, where she was supposed to announce a $10 million commitment to funding fertility research; instead, she announced onstage that she would give $100 million.

Most notably, Bia-Echo was the seed funder for the Global Consortium for Reproductive Longevity & Equality at the Buck Institute for Research on Aging, a private biomedical institute; she also invested $8 million to found Bia-Echo Asia in Singapore, which focuses on reproductive longevity as well.

Though Shanahan attracted a good deal of positive or at least neutral attention for the work she put into funding reproductive health, the Daily Beast reported that two sources had told it that Shanahan had attempted to “intervene” in the Buck institute’s work.

Jennifer Garrison, cofounder and director of the Global Consortium, denies that Shanahan had interfered. “I’m incredibly grateful to Nicole and the Bia-Echo Foundation for recognizing early, very early, long before it was in the public venue, this idea that women’s health research is woefully understudied, and understudied because it’s underfunded,” she says. “It’s not like Nicole told me she was planning to run for vice president, and I haven't talked to her since then. It seems like a really difficult path she’s chosen. I’m sure she has reasons for it, but I don't know what they are.”

As the campaign has worn on, Shanahan has emerged as a promoter of a variety of pseudoscience and poorly conceived ideas, cheering on a “homesteading” influencer who recommends using a beef tallow balm instead of commercial sunscreen and sitting down for a conversation with an 18-year-old filmmaker and self-styled investigative journalist whose documentary explores a purported link between food and cancer.

And she’s continued to parrot inaccurate conspiracies about vaccines and how they’re tested and regulated. Soon after announcing her candidacy, she sat down for a warm chat with Stanford professor Jay Bhattacharya, who was a signatory on the Great Barrington Declaration, which opposed Covid lockdowns and social distancing in the pandemic’s first year in favor of a scientifically dubious proposal wherein people would build herd immunity through mass infection. In the conversation, Shanahan claimed that “nothing incentivizes” vaccine manufacturers not to roll out unsafe or insufficiently tested vaccines. In fact, vaccines are extensively safety-tested before being made available to the general public.

For someone vying to help oversee federal agencies, Shanahan also sometimes doesn’t demonstrate a strong understanding of them. In a tweet, she got the role of the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System, known as VAERS, strikingly wrong, calling it “the body that determines if someone injured by a vaccine can be compensated.” That’s not what VAERS is; as the name suggests, it allows anyone to report what they believe is a side effect from a vaccine. Scientists then study those signals to determine if a widespread side effect is happening. The system works so well it led to an extremely rare recall, and, ultimately, the permanent suspension of a rotavirus vaccine in 1999, after it was found to cause an intestinal blockage called intussusception in some children. (It was replaced with two other rotavirus vaccines that are safe and effective.)

Despite all her campaign efforts, Shanahan does not seem to have been an overwhelmingly popular choice with Kennedy’s existing base, and didn’t provide an appreciable bump in the polls. Every video in which she’s featured is flooded with comments expressing frustration or anger that he didn’t choose a more well-known political figure like Tulsi Gabbard. Her anti-IVF stance has also earned her the ire of any number of voting-age women, as a casual scroll through TikTok would reveal. The Washington Post also noted recently that Kennedy and Shanahan don’t seem to spend much time together on the campaign trail, and have “sometimes discordant” stances on some issues like abortion.

But for all these enormous obstacles in making herself into a credible political candidate, for the new anti-vaccine movement Shanahan finds herself increasingly drawn into, she represents an almost endless source of money, mainstream attention from Silicon Valley, and, of course, a new sheen of legitimacy. Insiders familiar with the anti-vaccine world predict to WIRED that when her long-shot candidacy ends she’ll join Children’s Health Defense, the anti-vaccine organization which Kennedy founded and where he’s currently chairman on leave.

Others wondered how her anti-vaccine work might set her on a possible collision course with her ex-husband’s future funding of autism research.

In response to two requests for comment for this story, Shanahan tweeted a screenshot of WIRED’s emails to her, including the reporter’s phone number, and wrote, “how about your autism science experts join an open discussion on trial design and healing, here on a spaces on @X?” She added, “Let’s use these politically motivated attacks (by media outlets whose ownership and ad dollars support the status quo), to help bring the issues back to the people and great scientists, at wonderful institutions, who are working tirelessly to help discover new tools for healing.”

Since joining the Kennedy campaign, Shanahan has not given interviews to virtually any mainstream publications. On X, she recently also reprinted an interview request and list of questions from NBC reporter Brandy Zadrozny, complaining that Zadrozny was a working up a “hit piece” and that, in her words, journalists “seem less and less focused on the issues facing the American people.”

In the end, public health experts worry that the rhetoric Shanahan is promoting could be immensely harmful to the people she claims to be trying to help: autistic kids and their families. Sociologist Catherine Tan noted in a CNN op-ed that Shanahan is strengthening the misbegotten autism “recovery” industry, which preaches that the condition can be “cured,” and which often promotes treatments that are, in Tan’s words, “incredibly harmful as well as wildly expensive.” Autistic self-advocates have said time and again that a focus on “curing” autism is offensive and wrong-headed.

Alycia Halladay of the Autism Science Foundation says she’s disappointed to see Shanahan focusing on unproven research and promoting pseudoscience about autism, instead of applying her considerable wealth and intellectual curiosity towards something else.

“Why are we focusing on light that shoots through the skull when she could be funding training programs for developmental pediatricians?” she asks. “She could be studying things that have a chance of working. I don’t know who advised her on this.”

Halladay acknowledges Shanahan’s desire to help her own daughter any way she can, and to be responsive to her needs. As a candidate for vice president, however, she adds, “her scientific interests and investments should be held to a higher standard. Taxpayers should feel secure that their money is going towards scientifically valid research.”

[originalleftist]

Even though the frenzy has mostly died down, and public opinion has shifted somewhat, Amber Heard's image remains poisoned by the trials and the associated hate campaign against her.

Just as an example, I typed "amber heard" into the search bar on Youtube. Here, in order, are the top 14 prompts it gave me:

amber heard

amber heard kate moss

amber heard johnny depp

amber heard my dog stepped on a bee

amber heard cross examination

amber heard interview

amber heard now

amber heard mentions kate moss

amber heard kiss

amber heard testimony

amber heard aquaman 2

amber heard lawyer gets owned

amber heard trial

amber heard johnny depp funny moments

See the problem? 14 prompts, and of those, 9 directly reference her abuser, the abuse, or the trial, and 3 of those are overtly derogatory/demeaning to her or her legal team.

A grand total of ONE references her work as an actor, in 11th place on the list, and then only her most recent film.

Actually search "amber heard" and view the search results, and it's even worse. Of the videos (not counting shorts) that come up, 6 of the top 10 are, just by glancing at the thumbnail/caption, overtly hostile and derogatory to her/her legal team, 3 pretty clearly are (ie using photos of her chosen to appear ugly or hostile, asserting that Aquaman 2 "failed"), and the last one appears to be an SNL skit about the Virginia trial. Of the shorts, 2 or 3 out of the first 8 visible are overtly negative, and at least 6 reference the trial or other scandals/controversies.

Granted most places I've seen aren't as bad as Youtube, Youtube is the absolute bottom of the barrel for hate content on social media, a recent study by the Anti-Defamation League actually found it was the worst offender for monetizing hate over Facebook and Musk's Twitter. But still.

If you are a random person who searches her name on Youtube, nearly everything you see about her will be about the Virginia trial or related controversy, most of it overtly demeaning/vilifying her. You have to actively look to find anything positive about her or her work or any other aspect of her life, and even then, you WILL have to trawl through a lot of MRA/Alt. Reich-ish content designed to illicit feelings of hatred, disgust, and contempt toward her, and often toward women and abuse survivors generally. If you are someone who didn't follow the trial, or a young person in a few years who was too young to remember it, and you look her name up, these are the first things you'll likely see, and your first impression of her. Everything else about her life- her dozens of film and television roles, her other relationships, her extensive activism and charitable work, is obscured. And any future work that she does will likely be difficult to promote, because it'll get quickly buried in all this shit (I am reminded of Steven Bannon's infamous remark describing his media tactics, "flood the zone with shit", and much of the hate campaign against Heard is very much in his style). And that will follow her for years- to some extent, probably, forever.

And somehow, that's not the saddest part about all of this. The saddest part is that she has a young daughter who, if not already, will soon be old enough to go on social media, or talk to people who have, and find out exactly what much of the world says about her mother, and by association her. Lovely.

And to be honest I feel guilty even posting about it any more, because even by posting about it to call it out, I'm still contributing to the fact that so much of the content on social media about her is about the abuse and trial, that that's still defining how her whole life is perceived, and I know that, and I know that she probably doesn't want to be defined by that forever. Which is part of why I've tried to consciously shift in recent months to posting more about the rest of her life and work, and less about the trials and the witch-hunt.

But sometimes I do still feel the urge to point at this shit and say "What the fuck?"

[woomycritiques543]

Quick Question:

How the fuck is using the tag “anti vivziepop” or “anti hazbin” going to help Vivziepop or anyone from Spindlehorse listen to you? Let alone the main tag? Those are both tags that, lets face it, used to mainly be used to just harass those people. Hell, they still sort of are! Yet Tumblr, even for decent blogs, they associate their posts with that tag. Even the ones that are directly towards Viv. As if you have to be “anti ___ “ to critique something, or entirely positive or you’re a “hater!” or “do it out of bad faith.” Which in truth, is unreasonable asf, since you can do both without being fully one way or the other! It unintentionally proves the stans and their points about “le haters!” as “right”. When they’re not! -and you can critique the show while still being a fan of it. Why cant either side get that? Its so frustrating.

Imagine if someone wrote “anti ___” of you.

Would you read it? No? Then why do these tags still even exist? Its so counterproductive, and convinces people that you’re “against” the show’s existence, or Vivziepop’s existence as a creator by critiquing. Which in turn, further convinces fans that you’re doing it out of “bad faith.” When you’re not! So why hold yourself back? Whats the point?

If we were in the main tag, it would be full of critiques instead of stan posts, more people would have the ability to see our posts and listen, and the “haters vs. fans!” bullshit wouldn’t be as common as it is today. The “anti vivziepop” in “anti hazbin” tag (unless you actually against the show existing.) were never actually needed. You can easily just put “hazbin criticism.” Especially if you’re a fan yourself, and dont actually hate the show. Its counterproductive, it doesn’t help your cause, and to put it bluntly: Its a incredibly immature way of looking at media criticism.

Im not blaming the entirety of Vivziepop not listening on these tags. But its definitely contributed a lot to how the fandom see’s criticism, along with Spindle. So for that, for those of you that are still a fan of the show, all I can say is: Don’t let the shitty parts of the fandom convince you that you “have” to use the tag “anti hazbin” for your critiques to be heard, or that criticism “doesn’t belong” in the main tags. “Anti” means against, not “neutral” or just “critical.” So its not like doing this is “changing” the definition either. All that you’re doing here by giving said hate tag attention (instead of using other tags) is making it easier for people to get the wrong idea about your posts. You can be a fan and still critique the show. You don’t need to be entirely against it to critique it. Its backwards asf, and has only caused more harm than good when it comes to this hellfandom.

Both the “ur a hater if you critique!“ and “anti ___ automatically means that you’re critiqueing something!” has been causing the fandom to be divided for years now. It doesn’t help either side listen to each other, and makes you both look like “🤡s” and its only caused us to be the laughing stock of other fandoms. The more people use the “anti *insert hazbin related topic here*” the less people are going to listen to said critiques. Its that simple, and yet people keep getting it wrong over and over and over again and then wonder why the fandom’s as divided as it is now.

[nyxvuxoa-writes]

[𝚜𝚖𝚊𝚕𝚕 𝚛𝚊𝚗𝚝 & 𝚊𝚗𝚜𝚠𝚎𝚛𝚜]

I know why that person is getting under my skin. I get it. To wake up and find that they commented on my wife's story and then made a post after complaining about the subject matter, it was frustrating. But I knew it was bound to happen to either her or I at some point.

But there are moments where survivors need to be spoken for and where they don't. You can't just assume that all survivors are the same. You can't assume all people are the same in general.

By nature, for some us, our minds are not hardwired like 'normal' people. And I'd personally rather have things fleshed out in fanfiction. It's a place to take all that shit that builds up in my brain, all those ideas or fucked up moments and put them out into an outlet.

But don't assume that you know me or why I write what I do. Don't assume that for anyone that may write darkfic or even read it. Now does that mean I don't have any hard-limits on things? God no. There are things even I wont write, it's not much, but it's there and I wouldn't touch those things with a fifty foot pole.

Why do I write darkfics?

I don't have a direct answer for that to be honest. There are things I am willing to admit and things I'd rather keep to myself because of how I am and how my life has gone before. But they appeal to me. There is a sort of release in having them. Between dark!fics and dark!rp, I find it cathartic.

Why do I sexualize badguys/people?

I have my hunches, mostly tied to my diagnosed mental disorders. But for as long as I can remember, I have always been that way. I don't think much of it and know plenty of people who are in the same boat as I am. But that doesn't mean I don't like hero's or anti-heros either.

Will you write fluff or happy things?

Of course! Just because I enjoy writing dark!fic or heavy kinks, doesn't mean I don't enjoy fluff and happy things. I will even write simple angst. I can point you to plenty of my work that isn't dark!fic related.

I don't know. This was rattling around in my brain and maybe I just needed to get it out there. I can't stand gatekeeping or assumptions. I don't like people who just decide to lump others into one category. I know my wife bit her tongue with the whole thing and I don't blame her. But before anyone make assumptions about the content of darkfic writer of our nature and works, maybe you should just block and move on.

No one is forcing you to read it. No one is trying to force you into our community. No one is trying to directly do you harm.

What you like to write is what you like. Enjoy it. Tell your darkfic writers (even if you have to do it on anon) that you like their work. Their work is just as valid as anyone else's work.