#like in a lot of the analysis of their dynamic

[taiey]

a minor analysis of Manepear's manipulation (mane-ipulation)

A few thoughts to frame the discussion: Clownpierce has the mace; Clownpierce has not yet died. Clownpierce doesn't log on very often, and of everyone on the server Clownpierce is closest to Kaboodle.

With that in mind... 1hr 13min into 'A New Leaf..?', after a lot of open honest conversation about the war, morality, honour and Mane's potential as an interior decorator, Kaboodle brings up her constancy towards Clownpierce and Manepear starts telling her she should put herself first, because Clown doesn't.

He starts with the basic, obvious facts: Clown doesn't log on very often, he's never attacked Mane for her, he's never sacrificed himself for her like she has for him. Even... Woogie..? backs him up on all that.

Then she starts bringing up counter-examples and he pushes back, with subtle mis-framings like "it would have been easy for him to say I searched for Mapic on purpose so that I could get back for you" when, like, I saw that video and I bet you did too, he said that to Mapicc, and not to Kaboodle. Or brushing off that time he did fight Mane's team as if there's "10 people he knows he's not going to get targeted and if he gets a kill on Main and Flame that would be huge for him", when, uh, it's not that Mane has specific knowledge that the other group chat was considering jumping Clown for the mace earlier in the day, but I do feel that dynamic is sufficiently common knowledge.

I've actually had this thought before because I thought that he was, I was, I was confident that he was betraying me cuz I was thinking like "why would Clownpierce betray and and use everybody except for me? how does that make any sense? why would I be the only one?" and it doesn't make sense like nothing would make me special

Drawing parallels digs into her fears without him directly saying she's not special so as to elicit sympathy and not offense. (and pay no attention to the dissimilarities in their relationships to clown)

I think it was easy for him to defend you from Subz because he knows that he can kill Subz but if it was me in that situation I'm not so sure if he would he would have done the same thing

(y'know i didn't actually notice at the time that uh that's a very different line than his Subz Glazing to Zam&Mapicc)

Mane: did he leave my alliance or did I force him out? Kab: you did force him out Mane: he didn't have a choice not to choose you Kab: yeah that's a horrible... Mane: [crosstalk] he could have at least shot me a DM—wait! Oh my gosh! I just remembered

Things I did not notice on first listen: sorry, when could he have shot you a DM? When you turned on him?? No, no, that segue makes no sense. Mane absolutely did not "just remember". DMs only came into this because he wanted a segue into: his climactic reveal.

When I was looking for your base, I told him about my, my plan to find you using dogs, and he was telling me how to do it more efficiently.

So. Let's look at [the screenshots that i copied off someone else o7]

The first thing that stood out to me, as I was watching the stream, was this: Mane says "he was telling me how to do it more efficiently", and then he lets Kab stew in that for a bit, and then he sends her these screenshots. The framing is set up. But there is not one line in there that is Clown giving Mane advice on how to track her.

The nearest he gets to advice is "she knows when you do tho". Mane glosses that to Kab as "he was telling me exactly what not to do as well", but listen: look at it. The closest he gets to advice is: maybe don't track her. Maybe you shouldn't even try.

Mane asked "what should I say", he relates it like it's another example of advice, which looks like it could lead to advice, and then the screenshot cuts off. And... it's shorter than the first one. We know for an absolute fact that the height is not limited by, say, the height of the screen. It cuts off there because whatever comes after that does not back up the narrative Mane's selling her.

Laughing about her, saying she's scared: it's emotionally affecting, but it's not actionable information. It does not help Mane find Kab. All it does is give the feeling that Clown is on Mane's side.

After exiting the conversation Kaboodle grieves to chat about it; she starts off thinking of it as"actively telling Mane how to find me is, is..." but a few minutes later she's caught on to "if you look at the messages he's not actively selling me out"; she has prior history of coming back the next day going hang on...

Very interested to see how far she gets with it. That thing with the dogs was streamed live; I watched it. The memory of it tickled at my brain, so after today's ended I tracked it down, and found:

Clownpierce: Did he find the manepears? What? Kaboodle: So all the manepears teleported to me when they hit, when he hit them. Clown: [AWKWARD LAUGHTER] Kab, fearless: I'm thousands of blocks away, I'm really far away. Clownpierce: Maybe they... they sometimes do move in the direction they teleport to, maybe he knows the location. Maybe - maybe move around.

Clownpierce was DMing Manepear saying "ok good idea"—and then, on a call with Kaboodle, telling her Mane's tactic and what to do about it.

:)

(He doesn't maximally betray Mane, he doesn't tell her he knows Mane's doing that or tell her before it starts happening; there's a degree of trying to stay on both sides. But he isn't neutral, and he is ultimately, materially, on Kab's side.)

I, like Kaboodle, saw Manepear's "removing all netherite" video and really enjoyed it (the twists genuinely surprised me) but there was this doubt where—videos and not streams usually feel this way to me—I wasn't sure whether, to convince the server that he wasn't the guy on his friend's account, he had to actually convince them. I just knew that was a kind of story he wanted to tell, and hoped he'd try it on Lifesteal.

Now, though, I believe it. I've seen maybe two other fandom people even doubting this. I believe he did because I see he can. And oh my goodness I love it.

[mean-scarlet-deceiver]

how about A Gordon and Edward Analysis

Ooh yes… the OG dynamic! The first one, the foundation for everything!

(Unless you count “Edward and railwaymen”... or “Edward and coaches”... which, to be fair, I do…) 

These two are insane (affectionate). Hot take but this may be the saddest relationship on the N.W.R.?* They’re my two bestest boys but, man. Their dynamic is fucked. Edward and James are nothing compared to this. Gordon and Henry are healthy, relatively. 

tl;dr: They need couples counseling. 

Jobey, aren't you being a little dramatic? 

Am I? Take my hand. Let's do a close read… 

* This is going to focus on RWS (not tv series). Right now and for the rest of this post, I’m going to be talking strictly from the Wilbert books (and, thus, analyzing their relationship from the ‘20s to the ‘60s only) unless I specify otherwise 

Part 1 (this post): Gordon, what's your damage? 😭 / The Doylist Reason / Rent. Free. 

Post 2 (upcoming post, link later): Edward's Defences / Gordon's Growth

Post 3 (upcoming post, link later): Collision / Uh… Cleanup Crew?

tagging @weirdowithaquill because you asked for Edward+James and i wound up folding in most of what i have to say about them into this analysis 😅 in RWS they're a good foil for understanding Edward+Gordon

Gordon, what's your damage? 😭

There is a strong drive, right here on ttteblr, to portray how despite some notorious conflicts these two are canonically old friends. Also that maybe Gordon’s bad behavior is not so bad. 

That is a valid mission, indeed I flatter myself that I had some influence steering us down this road a few years back, however sometimes I think we're in danger of forgetting how often Gordon really has just been like… This: 

"You watch me this afternoon, little Edward," he boasted, "as I rush through with the Express; that will be a splendid sight for you." (1923) 

“I’ve done it! I’ve done it! I’ve done it!” he said proudly, and forgot all about Edward pushing behind. He didn’t wait to say “Thank you”... (1923) 

Edward puffed and pulled, and pulled and puffed, but he couldn’t move the heavy coaches. / “I told you so,” said Gordon rudely. (1923) 

So Edward found coaches for the three engines, and that day the trains ran as usual. / But when The Fat Controller came the next morning, Edward looked unhappy. / Gordon came clanking past, hissing rudely. “Bless me!” said The Fat Controller. “What a noise!” (1926-1934) *

When Gordon and Henry heard about the accident, they laughed and boasted. “Fancy allowing cows to break his train! They wouldn’t dare do that to us. We’d show them!” they boasted. (1952) 

“The Fat Controller would never approve,” said Gordon loftily. “Branch Lines are vulgar.” (1965) 

Edward scolded the twins severely, but told Gordon it served him right. Gordon was furious. / A few days later, some Enthusiasts came. On their last afternoon they went to the China Clay Works. / Edward found it hard to start the heavy train… / “Just pathetic,” grunted Gordon. “He should give up and be Preserved before it’s too late.” (1965) ** 

I am sportingly not even saddling Gordon with the blame for the line "Driver won't choose you again. He wants strong engines like us." (In TTRE, this is said by the collective of big engines – although the illustrations do clearly point a finger at Gordon. Still, like I said, I'm going to be sporting. The pictures aren't canon.) Also note that in RWS Gordon doesn't say "No use at all" when he learns Edward has come to push his train; that whole bit of dialogue was something Britt and David cooked up. 

Even being as generous as possible, this still leaves us with… seven. Seven instances of Gordon taking a shot at Edward. 

That’s actually quite a… lot? 

I mean, not necessarily if we were racking up all the complaints, ranging from major to miniscule, that you’d have about someone you’d lived and worked with for over 40 years, lol. 

But we shouldn’t actually be expecting a complete inventory at all. RWS books are minimalist on detail. There's just so much less in 'em than the sprawling TVS with its 24 full series, lol. And let’s focus here on just the Wilbert canon, since that’s where all these examples of Gordon being rude to Edward come from. Seven times, in 26 books. For context, the number of times Thomas teases Gordon in this same corpus is… three. Three times. Thomas cheeking Gordon. Also kind of a fundamental dynamic. THRICE! 

Passengers saying What a Bad Railway It Was… two. Number of times Thomas and Percy squabble… three. Number of accidents that Percy gets into (and this includes the piddling stuff, like crashing into that wagon of flour that was left on the rails)… five. Reflect on that for a moment: Gordon is a dick to Edward in canon more often than Percy's had an accident. That's crazy. Indeed, there are plenty of RWS characters who are canonically friends or who shed together who don't even get to have seven shared moments. It's actually kind of a fun game, to try to think of any two of them who, like Gordon and Edward, have seven of a specific kind of interaction. Have at it! There has to be something I've missed. 

But I hope it's clear, that by the standards of these books this character dynamic is hit A LOT. You know me, I'm going to go on to contextualize a lot of these seven examples, and I'm going to play Gordon defense attorney to a certain degree, and plead mitigation. But I can't possibly explain away the sheer size of this pile of evidence. This specific dynamic is not meant to be overlooked. It's not meant to be minimized.

This is a big inescapable part of what their relationship is. 

The Doylist Reason

Now, in fairness, the meta reason this dynamic is so pervasive and repeated is that it's The Template. 

“Big braggadocious engine needs help from humble plucky little engine” was trite before The Three Railway Engines was published. This is not a slam; I’m not gonna get on another parent’s case about the story they improvised for their kid because “it relies on cliches.” But it’s just a fact: Edward and Gordon, to begin with, are simply THE foundational cliche of “anthropomorphic train” media. 

One of the reasons the RWS (and the whole subsequent TTTE juggernaut) is so successful is because it features so many creative variations on this template. Most of the relationships are just "okay so one of them is the Gordon, and one of them is the Edward, but this time there's a twist!" (This is how you get Thomas as the big breakout character – because the Thomas and Gordon variation is a lot less cliched, and a lot more fun.)

Just an observation. 

Now, Awdry did keep writing the OGs again and again and again, for a couple'a decades, and he developed them both quite a bit. So by the end of his run we do have a very elaborate Jenga tower built on this template. Loads of fun* to be had yet. So let's jump right back into analyzing this shit in-universe. 

* For certain definitions of fun 😈

Rent. Free.

The first thing I wanted you to note about Gordon’s Edward-directed crimes was that there were a lot of them. 

The second thing I want you to note is that… these are, perhaps, not all so very criminal? 

Some of it is – the group harassment about the strikebreaking and the “Just pathetic!” bit (more on both of those later). But a lot of the rest of it strikes me as more the results of being blunt or un-self-aware or even just plain boisterous than actively choosing to bully anyone. In particular, the early stuff, the Three Railway Engines stuff on which the whole foundation of their relationship is laid… 

"You watch me this afternoon, little Edward," he boasted, "as I rush through with the Express; that will be a splendid sight for you." (1923) 

Condescending. Tone-deaf. Belittling (literally). But… not actually spiteful?

“I’ve done it! I’ve done it! I’ve done it!” he said proudly, and forgot all about Edward pushing behind. He didn’t wait to say “Thank you”... (1923) 

That's not cool, but it's also not… that bad. 

At the point where The Three Railway Engines ends with the claim "all three engines are now great friends," it's like, sure. You can see that. Indeed you can see it much more easily for Gordon and Edward than you could with Gordon and Henry – Gordon's behavior toward the latter (though in a similar vein of "kick a fellow when he's down") was much more extreme, and Henry's behavior was so bizarre that you hardly know what to expect from him next. (What you don't expect is that those two will be joined at the hip for the next thirty years.) By contrast the Edward and Gordon relationship should be kinda easy, the former's really nice so the latter just has to remember some basic manners and they should be okay. Right? 

But that's not how it goes. Partly of course because Gordon has much more out-of-pocket shit in him than he ever displayed in TTRE. But I'm going to set aside some of the more severe tests that Gordon makes of these friendships till later – stuff like punishing Edward for breaking his tender engine strike and "Just pathetic!" (not to mention all the needling of Henry around the Flying Kipper accident). Setting that aside, Gordon's original sin is simply being a dumb, self-centered, out-of-touch rich jock. Yes, he’s consistently “rude,” but usually more in an ignorant, superior, “I cannot be bothered to try not/learn how to prevent myself giving offense” sort of way than an aggressive, malicious “hurting you for fun and profit” sort of way. In contrast to, say, James. Whose behavior really is consistently mean. And who is hurtful on purpose, because he’s having a bad day and tearing someone else down is how he copes. James insults; Gordon (except in those couple of asterisked cases that we’re tabling for later discussion) merely boasts. And it’s really quite interesting to me how Edward seems to have much less problem with the former than with the latter! 

Because he does have a problem with it. We know, because for most of this long list of incidents the source must be… him. 

This is a series where canonically the Author is a human “friend of the railway,” collecting and publishing these stories in order to publicize the railway to the world. This is something that really can’t be forgotten when reading these (indeed, thanks to the “Author’s Note” each time, the books will not let you forget it). The narrator is canonically a figure in this universe, and is not omniscient. 

And, when it comes to the Edward/Gordon dynamic, the Author’s point of view is consistently collapsing into Edward’s point of view. 

Certain times when the narrator editorializes about details, we can be pretty sure, are lifted straight from Edward’s take on the moment (and, if not Edward’s, then The Fat Controller’s, which to be frank is also roughly aligned): 

Edward puffed and pulled, and pulled and puffed, but he couldn’t move the heavy coaches. / “I told you so,” said Gordon rudely. (1923) 

That Gordon said that, I don’t doubt. That the adverb is necessary, or even correct? That’s… that’s interpretative. I totally understand why Edward and TFC, respectively, took it that way, but I’m not 100% convinced it was meant that way, nor that everyone else on scene regarded it as much more than Gordon glumly colour-commentating the group effort to recover from his breakdown. Is he being ‘rude’? Or is he merely too blunt for North Western sensibilities?

Anyway, even if ‘rude’ is the correct interpretation, it is again worth noting that it’s certainly not part of the narrative as Gordon would have been telling the story in the 1940s. (The 1940s! It's over twenty years later! And Edward is getting his side of the thing in fuckin' print… Big win, that.)

So, if we agree that Edward is the source the Author primarily relies on for these 2+4 scenes, what does this show us? Well, for one, I'd say it shows us that Edward may ‘forgive’ all this but he is certainly not forgetting one bit of it. Indeed the narrative’s repeated return to this dynamic almost certainly mirrors how much room Gordon’s superior attitude occupies in Edward’s headspace.

Which is kinda wild. There's no evidence Edward is petty by nature, if anything there's a lot that suggests the opposite. Gordon getting this far under his paint is… something of an achievement. 

But we can see how he managed: 

Even discounting the illustration. Even if Gordon isn’t the speaker. He was one of Them. The other big engines who tormented Edward may have been worse, were probably worse, but they are gone and Gorson remains, an eternal reminder of 1922-3. Of the primordial period when Gordon has the power, Edward doesn't. Gordon is on top of their world; Edward is left alone in a shed, cut off from all his former friends and supporters, afraid for his life, roundly denigrated by the engines he lives with, and quite possibly lost his previous job directly in favor of Gordon. Who, at best, is careless and oblivious. Who, at worst, is belittling and rude. 

Ouch. 

Gordon's arrival is still bound up, probably even the direct cause, of one of the most miserable and humiliating year of Edward's life. And – maliciously or not – everything about how Gordon conducts himself only serves to keep tearing again at that wound.  

Ouch. 

If Edward were to write off Gordin as a potential friend till the end of time, well, you know, it would be valid. Not very "wise" or anything, but it’d be understandable.

To be clear, I don't think this is what happens. I'm not going to argue that the famous line from the end of TTRE is a lie, some sort of diplomatic fiction. No, Gordon and Edward quickly make a go at genuine friendship. Indeed, throughout all this mess, even as I analyze it in excruciating detail… there's something kind of touching and weirdly wholesome about the way that they both try so hard to make it work despite the headwinds against them. Edward (and Gordon, for that matter) make sincere efforts to overcome the wounds they have inflicted on each other's egos. Kudos, lads. 

However, I also don't agree with a vast assumption on the part of many fans that Edward solves the issue by simply… rising above. Puts aside his own ego, takes a pacifist approach to all the jockeying for position, acts purely as mentor, just sits on the moral high ground and philosophically accepts everything as it is. 

This is canonically nonsense. Yes, Edward was passive in his first-ever story – he was at the end of the line; he needed someone to give him a damn break before he even had options – he doesn't actually remain passive after that, though. Indirect (he’s allergic to conflict), but not passive. We see very clearly that Edward may be judging status by a bit of a different yardstick than Gordon et. al., he doesn’t think picking up the slack on secondary or support jobs is a source of shame and his relative physical weakness drives him to find different ways to distinguish himself, but, like, when it comes to points-scoring, he’s still very much in the game. Of course his first priority is just to be wanted and useful at all, but that is not the end of it. Edward is competitive, with a proper amount of pride (“Good! Don’t let them beat you”) and he has normal engine-y desires and ambitions (“Look at me!”). ‘Course, in his case they don’t drive him to make a straight-up nuisance of himself. But, still. It matters to him that he gets to be the Smartest Engine in the Shed. It matters to him that he has nice blue wheels. It matters to him that he’s important, it matters to him that he’s respected, and he’s quite as pleased to get important jobs as any other engine (even if he doesn’t begrudge an engine who gets a jammier job than him). When canon kicks off no driver at Vicarstown has laid a claim on Edward, Topham Hatt has just succeeded some previous General Manager and shows no sign of knowing or remembering that Edward exists, and Edward has nothing – no job and no allies. It is not an accident that all three of those things change. It’s not even merely a natural karmic reward for being a nice, humble engine with a winsome smile. Edward set out to earn recognition. His main method (be helpful and reliable to others) is admirable, but it is also a means to a goal (be recognized as important and ensure he's never again stuck in the sheds). And he succeeds wildly. There’s luck there, sure - there always is, with success - but he didn’t have a lot of natural advantage at his tender, either. What I’m saying is that he’s not some innocent unworldly soul who aww-shucks’d his way into it. He meant for this to happen. He played smart and he worked hard for it – but, like, he had to know what it was he wanted. 

Am I belaboring this point? Maybe. But I feel like so many people only see Edward as nothing more than a dutiful, responsible, maybe even stuffy oldster with at most an occasional twinkle of fun in his eye and, hell, often that’s not even a big problem (though I think it sells short later characters who arrive and who are ACTUALLY more unambitious and above-it-all than Edward - for instance, I think Donald and Douglas are actually our first tender engines who show up and legitimately just never once give a shit about their status, at least not beyond the status of ‘alive’ vs. ‘dead’). But I think it IS a problem, that it does lead you wrong, when you bring that assumption to bear on Edward’s relationship with Gordon. Edward never "mentors" Gordon. It’s a fundamentally competitive relationship. Oh, maybe it shouldn’t be! It shouldn’t be, because Edward is not jealous by nature and so if Gordon were halfway chill himself it never would have been. And it shouldn’t be, because Gordon so easily outclasses Edward that there should be no reason for Gordon to ever get jealous, either. But they both manage, somehow. Edward’s not just benignly pulling a quarter out of Gordon’s ear every so often, to gently remind him that Gordon doesn’t know everything yet. He might have settled into this role, if Gordon hadn’t scared the existential shit out of him throughout the ‘20s, but Gordon did and so Edward didn’t. Edward’s in it to win it, babe! He accepts that his express days are over, but he’s not willing to be told he never again gets a cut of the cake, either – and, when Gordon snubs him, Edward is not just rising above the fray and letting it go. They’re always playing tug-of-war. 

To reiterate: I don't think Edward is faking friendship after Gordon's failed express. He's really working on it – and he might have had more success letting go of the previous wounds Gordon inflicted on his ego – if only Gordon had stopped that sort of shit, going forward! 

But that's asking too much. It's still the 1920s, baby; Gordon's gonna Gordon; so what's a little tender engine to do? 

[monstersinthecosmos]

I read your answer, where did you say "Pandora is his actual type and Armand was his pet"

But how could Armand be just a pet for him? He is one of only three of his turned children. Marius speaks of him as the greatest love (along with Pandora). Although I see some hypocrisy in this. Marius loves no one as much as Pandora. But certainly more than just a pet

Well !

Babe the thing is that, I said what I said and it’s okay if you don’t agree!!! And I’m gonna take this opportunity to double down. (Assuming that you’re asking in good faith and not to pick on me for my analysis lmao please this fandom has traumatized me too much.)

(((TLDR the text never treats Armand like he’s Marius’s equal but also I never said that being a pet was a bad thing.)))

I want to start by talking about the concept of MAKER in VC and how canon tells us that vampires exist outside of human social constructs, including traditional family roles right? Like for example, the moment Gabrielle is turned, she ceases to be Lestat’s mother. 

But with Marius I think a lot about how he’s crafted a persona for himself, and tries to operate in a very rigid set of rules. And part of this is like, how determined he is to live by stoicism even when he’s a mess on the inside, but I also think about in TVL when he says that thing about how it’s easier to just knock a glass on the floor, and how he goes out of his way to appear more human and retain human gestures. 

So like, in the way a MAKER is kinda like, a parent/lover/companion/something too big for our tiny human minds to comprehend. We still get a Marius who is determined to be a father & mentor, and I think a lot about how his need for stoicism and humanity is probably also expressed with his need to be the paterfamilias. 

I’ve been also thinking a lot lately about Bad Fathers in Media—specifically people like Tony Soprano, Logan Roy, Roderick Usher—and how the toxic patriarchy affects their relationships with their sons. Tony Soprano in particular is one who resonates with me a lot when I think about Marius—Tony often indulges in anger because he enjoys being feared (he thinks it’s respect but it’s usually fear), and that’s a bit different on a material level from Marius “anger is too pathetic” de Romanus but they’re both sort of obsessed with the idea of stoicism and trying to be a ~ strong silent type ~ on the outside, even when they’re actually quite messy and emotional underneath.

But wait — put a pin in this for a second. We’ll come back to this, and the concept of fathers and sons. I want to pause real quick to swerve to clarify:

Armand being a pet isn’t a bad thing.

It wasn’t “pet (derogatory) 😒” —  it’s “pet (adorable creature that I care for) 🥰”.

Here’s the thing about MARIMAND if you will (I hate ship the VC ship names oh my god theyre all hideous lmao) but like OKAY OKAY. THE THING IS. WHAT ARE WE HERE FOR IF WE’RE NOT INTO THE FUCKEDUPEDNESS ? 

Like I’m not telling anyone how to enjoy a ship, please have fun ! Do you! But to ME? That inter-species friction and 1,517 year age gap is like WHAT THE DYNAMIC IS ABOUT, THAT’S THE FLAVOR BABY!!! Anne Rice herself even said the book was about “a boy’s love for a monster” !!

WHAT’S THE POINT OF MONSTERFUCKER EROTICA IF HE’S NOT A MONSTER LOL

And YEAH I get that not everyone wants to read TVA as a monsterfucker story. That’s okay! It also reads as a savior fantasy. But I enjoy the messiness of it—I LIKE that Marius is an apex predator & ghoulish ancient thing. I like that it’s problematic. I LOVE that Marius really does love him, though, amidst all these other themes. I find it SO compelling.

But I never once said that Marius doesn’t love him. Of course Marius loves him. What I said is that he loves Armand the way we love a pet. I would fucking die for my cats. I regularly burst into tears looking at my cats because I love them so much. But they’re fucking cats lmao.

I never for one minute forget that Marius isn’t human. He’s operating on a whole different wavelength with different points of references and ethics and life experiences. Like, people get so hung up on Armand being 17 and IT WOULD BE JUST AS BAD IF HE WAS 18 OR 25 OR 30 LOL. A frail little human cannot comprehend !!!!!

What’s interesting with Marius’s fledglings though is that he tends not to treat them as equals. Like I think you could read TVA thinking: Once Marius turns him, they’ll be real partners. But no, they stick to their mentor/mentee, dom/sub, father/son roles. We don’t have tons of examples in canon of other maker/fledgling relationships but it’s not a coincidence that Roman Patriarch Marius maintains status over his fledglings. Even once Armand is a vampire, he’s still not Marius’s equal, and Marius’s age and power are still held over him. 

BUT LIKE.

That’s weird, right?

I MEAN THE DARK GIFT IS DIFFERENT FOR EVERYONE but it’s interesting to me that Lestat & Gabrielle’s relationship completely dissolves once she’s a vampire, but Marius & Armand’s doesn’t.

(Sidebar that like, I think there’s also ways to acknowledge that if we think their relationship is good that it’s OKAY for them to maintain these roles because Armand WANTS to be his sub but let me focus on my point here. We should also make time to talk about diegetic BDSM and whether or not it’s appropriate to use a D/s framework for this discussion if the roles are baked into the text and not a choice for the characters and not a game they are agreeing to but that’s for another post.)

So back to the thing about fathers.

I’ve been thinking a lot about bad father characters, specifically Logan Roy and Tony Soprano (also bad mother Margaret Chenowith) and the impossible standards they give their children. Logan and Tony are both men who are disappointed in their sons for being soft, because they were able to provide better lives for their children. They both spoil their sons with all the material wealth that they did not have in their own lives. For Logan we see how badly he resents his kids—Kendall even accuses him of being jealous of what they have—and for Tony he seems to be at a loss on how to parse his feelings. Part of him literally hates AJ for being such a whimsical little fuckup, and at the same time he wants to protect that part of AJ and doesn’t even WANT AJ to follow in his footsteps. Still, he hates to see that AJ is spoiled with no work ethic, and doesn’t know how to set an example for him.

Everything in Venice is designed to spoil Armand with all the things Marius didn’t get—it’s such a specific & deliberate opposite of how Marius was turned. And I think him seeing Armand as a pet puts a little bit of distance between the hurt he’d feel if he thought of Armand as a true son, or even an equal. He doesn’t have to resent Armand for having it easier than he did, but also doesn’t have to feel extremely betrayed by Armand fitting in with the cult. Like, let’s never 4get that by the time Marius catches up with Armand, Armand is right at home and thriving with them. A CULT? THE THING THAT KILLED ME????? Marius has no idea what the fuck they did to him, he just knows that Armand settled in just fine and has discarded everything that Marius tried to teach him. 

I think these roles are appropriately all muddled because it’s VC—like we said, the No Social Constructs series—so like, how do we compare the words SON and PET and FLEDGLING and SUB, I’m not sure. But my point is that he’s never seen or treated Armand as an equal, and perhaps never even a full adult person. 

ARE THESE IDEAS CONFLICTING? A little. But that’s okay. Am I incoherent and ill-equipped to tackle this analysis or is it because Marius is not a consistent person and never quite lives up to the ideal he’s trying to be? Does he want Armand to be his pet but secretly has feelings? Does he fail at being a father figure? Is he brushing off his Big Big Emotions so that he doesn’t have to admit how wrecked and destroyed he is and how badly his feelings were hurt? Idk man. I’m sure you can send me another anon to tell me I’m wrong. 

I wonder sometimes if like, keeping Armand at this lower status (like a pet) actually protects Armand from Marius’s ire and disappointment. Marius is sort of a father, but sort of not. He’s crafted a role for himself that is never all the way sincere, and it allows him some space to protect his own feelings of betrayal and disappointment when it comes to Armand. Marius is also classically bad at following his own rules, and never quite sticks the landing on the people he’s trying to be. 

I can imagine a version of events where Armand does gain some ground with Marius, maybe pays his dues and matures into someone that Marius trusts and respects, but that’s not the version of events we get in canon. Marius turns Armand, Armand remains his pupil, they visit Kiev and Marius is jealous of Armand’s father, they make it all the way to the raid without Marius ever confiding about The Parents. Even in the present day, during a dispute, Marius tells Armand he has the savage & ignorant soul of a child. Even in the present day, Marius won’t stop calling him Amadeo!!!! 

And like!!!!! It feels like Marius is more upset about Santino wronging him by ruining his home and taking his toys than he is about what Santino did to ARMAND. It’s more about Marius’s own feelings and possessions than it is about Armand’s own feelings and experience of what happened. AN ARMAND FRIDGING, IF YOU WILL. 

Anyway.

By never seeing Armand as a complete person, Marius never has to feel threatened by him. We see this in toxic parents a lot. Like, I want you to be good, but I’m insecure if you’re better than me. Or I can never fully respect your feelings because I always see you as a child and not a fully grown adult. And the truth is that Marius is actually quite threatened by Armand, on the inside. He is very hurt. He cares what Armand thinks of him. He’s relieved at the end of BCtu when he assumes that Armand wants to open his heart again. 

So idk like. I think the books end with a little bit of a hope for them; we see a lot of growth and self-acceptance from Marius in the last book and it’s reasonable to assume that he and Armand might have a long chat and nice long cry and work it out. I don’t think it’s completely set in stone, but it’s nice to think about! A nice happy ending. And I wonder if this is when Marius finally takes Armand seriously and listens to what he has to say without demeaning him! 

Am I gonna add 2000 more words to this point by tying it what the whole like “I fear him because I could love him again” thing in TVA means? No I’m not. But like. Again! It’s okay to be a pet, I think Armand liked being his pet. :) 

[worldofavania]

Drawn: 2020

Analysis:  The first page of the issue is NOT the credits page again! Why? Well you'll see next page, but that's just how the shots worked out. Anyway, I like this relatively low-key intro, as there's a lot of environmental detail to take in... The naval yard certainly provides a nice backdrop, and having the shot from so far above the horizon allows the background to really expand far into the distance. This one took a while to draw, but I think it looks great, just as a new establishing shot should! That's to say nothing of course about the RNS Lord Standish, featured front and center, aboard which the majority of this chapter will take place. Both the background and ship design took a bunch of time in and of itself, and as the Lord Standish is important, I made a full design sheet for it before drawing the page. The little launch airship I'd drawn before in a sketch, but even in one page it got a pretty decent amount of spotlight too. As for the page layout itself, it's a little different than usual, but nothing too fancy. I really like using full-bleed backgrounds with inset panels for aerial shots, I just think it helps the page feel more free and floaty. Not a huge amount of emphasis on character detail here, but the last panel gives a simple introduction to Blanche and Heinrich.

If I drew it again:  Whew, I would not want to draw that much to do this page over again, but I don't think I would, since I'm quite happy with it. The only issues I really have are in panel 1; the scale of Blanche and the launch as compared to the background is a little weird... The low angle throws it off a bit I think, and I think it could have been just a little better all together. Also not really bad, per se, but I think I could have made the last panel a little more dynamic. It's functional, and given the next two pages, it isn't really a problem, but it is still the most basic framing of this page.

Favorite Panel: Definitely the main panel of the Lord Standish and the naval yard. I put a lot of planning into this shot, and even more time with the details, and I think it really pays off with a cool shot that's full of detail!

[elijahmiles]

“haytham would have been a good father”

[listles-s]

man laios and toshiro's/shuro's dynamic is incredibly compelling to me on multiple levels

when you look at them, you can see the cultural and personal barriers that drive almost every single aspect of their relationship, both positively and negatively. laios is incredibly outspoken and driven by his passions, which he expresses freely even in the face of annoyance and/or criticism- he's allowed to be as authentically himself as he pleases, and it's this drive that allows him and the others to survive as long as they have, especially due to the fact that these passions and interests are intertwined with his skills as a dungeon diver. toshiro, in contrast, is incredibly reserved, not only due to his eastern upbringing but also his status as nobility- a combo of cultures that both demand that one save face, to avoid conflict at any cost, even at the expense of one's own feelings and individuality. this, in turn, has made toshiro the perfect samurai, as he's politely-spoken, agreeable, and an honorable, skilled man. both are also incredibly devoted to falin on different levels, having come to accomplish the same mission of her rescue despite drifting apart from the party.

on the flipside, it's these same strengths that cause them to clash- laios is outspoken but unable to truly decipher the emotions of others, leading to a lot of false assumptions and frustration from those who interact with him. toshiro is stoic but to the point of complacency, leading to a aggressively neutral disposition that's ushered by the needs and wants of others, rather than himself. neither man truly knows where they stand with the people important to them in their lives, and hold the ones that they do know how they feel with a fierce admiration expressed in ways that aren't always traditional.

in the end, they both share a growing feeling of isolation from other people that comes to a head when they meet again in the depths of the dungeon, and they both have different ways of coping with the frustrations that arise, seeing the other as only the things they have seen face to face.

it's laios' ability to express himself emotionally without consequence that sparks jealousy in toshiro, leading to a physical fight born out of miscommunication and envy. while toshiro is a driving force in the conflict, it should be noted that the actual fight is started by laios, breaking the dam of indirect communication through force. nothing is more direct than a slap to the face, and it's only after they start hitting each other that toshiro's true feelings come to light.

however, at the end of it all, toshiro is the one who stops torturing himself, listening to laios and giving him the bell, allowing laios and his party entrance into his homeland should they need it, and ultimately giving him support in his mission to defeat the dungeon mage, albeit in his own way. despite it all, they're still good friends with a conflict that boiled over, but came out the other end with a slightly better understanding of each other. the fight was painful for both of them, but it was a necessity for their dynamic to improve, and for them to be made aware of their faults and improve as individuals as well.

but also, if you think about it, their dynamic is literally just this

[sunnykeysmash]

[iftrashcouldsparkle]

Hey does anyone wanna hear my thoughts about how Madarame and Fujieda's routes are essentially the same thing but in a different font????? Huge spoilers for the true route of Slow Damage.

Once I started playing Fujieda's route it struck me how it pretty much followed the same story beats as Madarame's:

Towa is confronted with a relic from his past > Something about it nags at him so he starts poking around > He remembers something from his past > He comes to terms with some aspect of his identity > Confrontation with the Takasato asshole that's been causing issues

But aside from that, both Madarame and Fujieda reflect different aspects of Towa's character. Both of their routes revolve around the idea of meeting someone so similar to you that they might as well be a mirror and the understanding that's born from that. The main difference is what they reflect and the traits they bring out in each other.

Madarame essentially reflects all of the things that Maya made Towa into. When they're together, they reflect and amplify the rougher edges of each of their personalities. Towa's apathy, his recklessness, his impulsivity, and his masochism are the things Madarame considers to be Towa's "true self". They're the parts of Towa that he sees reflected in himself; the parts of them that operate on instinct rather than the norms of society. Madarame loves Towa in his own way, and accepts the "roughest" version of himself, but these aspects of his character are things that Towa became because of Maya's abuse. It ultimately works for them and they find their version of happiness, but the more instinctual Towa that Madarame sought out is a version of Towa who is ruled by his coping mechanisms and survival instincts. To find this happiness (a happiness found in pain and danger), Towa must first be broken and regress back into his trauma. Madarame and Towa reflect each other in a way that enables the worst of their behavior.

Fujieda, on the other hand, reflects everything that Towa is DESPITE Maya's influence. (There is still that aspect of mirroring each other through their trauma and their shared scars is one of the big reasons they begin to connect, but it's more than that.) They reflect each other in their resilience in the way they choose to keep living and their refusal to let their trauma further define them. Both Towa and Fujieda suffer from survivor's guilt and consider suicide, and yet both of them make the difficult choice to keep living to some degree because of the other's influence. They reflect each other in the memory of the girl who gives them both the strength to carry on; someone they loved and lost. They reflect the ugliest and truest parts of themselves, showcased in their negative first interactions early in the game and the literal/metaphorical scars they share. Yet, despite how scared they both are at being confronted with someone so similar, they see the beauty and humanity in each other where they struggle to see it in themselves. Because Fujieda's character mirrors Towa's so closely, he's able to relate deeply to Towa and understand how much of his behavior is an attempt to regain his autonomy and recognizes that he could have very easily ended up the same way. Fujieda loves Towa for who he's managed to become despite Maya's abuse, and it's this mutual understanding that allows them to support each other so thoroughly. Fujieda and Towa reflect each other in a way that ultimately supports a journey to healing and recovery.

Anyway, if you actually read all of that I would love to hear your thoughts because it's been rattling around in my brain for too long!

[victimized-martyr]

ur making me wanna ship kyman (only if cartman gets therapy) what the actual fuck is Tumblr doing to me

Nice to tempt you to the dark side 👻

lolol in all seriousness, that’s cool! Technically, Cartman *is* in therapy. He’s seeing Thomas (Panderverse), remember? And it’s strongly implied he’s on medication (Cupid Ye). Can’t say if he’s getting better or worse, but Cartman definitely has evolved. If you want to go the redemption route, it’s been shown that it takes little for Cartman to be “fixed”. He just needs discipline, a sturdy male figure in his life. He… needs to be dominated. Literally (tsst) and if not that, he needs to get out of South Park— his biggest enabler. So, he’s not too far gone. He’s a real piece of work though, and South Park’s wellbeing (in-show and out) can’t function without him being an asshole. It’s just who he is. But whoever decides to stick with him has to have a lot of determination to deal some damage control, or keep him in check. (hm, sounds familiar…)

So, there’s your condition met. Go forth and ship kyman! 🫡

[dykedvonte]

I keep seeing fanarts of ppl's OC's being on the ship, so do you think that if there was 6st crewmember (specifically, another woman) Anya would've been more safe? Like, someone to actually call Jimmy's begaviour out, someone Anya might wanna trust? Is there a possibility something might have changed (even if a little) or it would not have mattered at all?

-💀

I feel like the game would make it part of the commentary on where she would believe and help Anya but still be sort of dismissive? Like the whole “don’t waste time crying and being scared keep going and move on, don’t let him win”. It’s supposed to be positive and reinforcing but sometimes it does more damage in those times of mourning and grief, it feels patronizing, like you don’t understand what you’re going through but they do. Even if they did call out his behavior it’s still on Curly to act and while another voice would help, it’s still 4 against 2 on guys that don’t get it until they have to vs women who always have to.

I don’t mind mouthwashing OCs but I do get a bit bored as they tend to be borderline saviors or like Jimmy aligned. They are either more complicit than Curly or just Jimmy haters for no reason, outside of what the creators know about what he did to Anya. I am never irked by OCs but in a story like mouthwashing you really need to think about what your character adds to the commentary, especially if they are there during the crash. It’s nice to have like characters on Anya’s side more whole heartedly and interesting to see characters who placate Jimmy but sometimes it’s one note.

I can’t and don’t want to police peoples OCs it’s never my intention when I comment on trends I notice, but I do feel like the way people make their OCs interact with these two characters and especially Curly, really show a grave misunderstanding of the narrative and these characters as people vs roles in the story. Still, I know people just make up characters for fun and that’s fine. Great even, but I guys I’m focusing more on OCs that are supposed to have those serious dynamics. My favs tend to be pretty-Tulpar or post-Tulpar au OCs.

The inevitably of the crash is on Jimmy. He did that not because he wasn’t stopped but because all his means to kill Anya were taken. The gun, the axe. Even if Curly did strip him of his co-pilot privileges and try to keep him contained there’s only so many people. An extra body helps but they have jobs they have to do, he’s the only one steering the whole ship and Jimmy would likely have an out: food, bathroom, etc. He’s not new and if he couldn’t crash the ship directly, who’s to say he wouldn’t sabotage something else? A clunker like the Tulpar wouldn’t take much. An extra person helps but it’s just another thing that prolongs what a person like Jimmy is willing to do to shirk responsibility.

It’s more than just needing someone to stand up to him and think that’s what is missing when it comes to inserting a character into the mouthwashing setting.

[anachronistic-falsehood]

i just. love qpac and qcellbit and their weird complex relationships. like when I hear celltw i think of cannibalism and the prison and all the fucked up implications of just. everything that went on there. when i hear pacbit i think of cellbit telling pac e mike that he loves them and that he’s no longer cell and that that monster died, and cellbit telling pac after the happy pills arc that he’s not alone anymore and he’s a hero, and them raising a kid together and joking about their past. like. it’s insane that one character can change so fuckijg much that two different ship names can make me think of two completely different dynamics, even though cell and cellbit are the same exact character in different points in time and celltw and pacbit are essentially the same ship

LIKE cellbit has changed so much but pac has stayed more or less the same and i just wonder what the hell cellbit must look like from his eyes. yk. how one person can change so much that your entire relationship has flipped on its head and now you’re family but you still find yourself scared of who he used to be sometimes regardless of how he’s changed. the duality of these fucking guys. i’m going to eat the floorboards

[greensaplinggrace]

does anybody else think about how all of the darkling’s survival techniques were taught to him by a woman experienced at surviving in a man’s world?

[thewhizzyhead]

once again this is more of a brainfart but a certain aspect of orphan town has come to mind recently - so obviously the first sets of verses feature the orphans getting ticked off that the reveal that the warriors, the so-called "late night cosmetology class" goers, were present at a gang summit they weren't invited to. the ensuing chorus then features the dudes boosting their rep up, saying that their rumbles are due to be famous and all that - and seeing as the orphans clearly take the lack of invitation as an attack to their ego, fox and swan resort to a well-known tactic used to bring insecure ego-obsessed men to heel: batting their eyelids and making the girls seem small and sweet by saying they were simply just "lost and lonely" while also making the boys feel respected as proper men through compliments ("heavy, heavy") and through asking them for help ("what do you suggest we do") - and this works!!! of course it all goes to shit when mercy challenges their masculinity and dominance by questioning how easily they fall for the warriors' damsel in distress act, but in any case, I find this treatment of the orphans to be another layer of cool and care in recontextualizing the warriors as women - as clearly this is an instance of not only misogyny in action, but in how women have to deal with insecure-ass men through stroking their egos just to get by peacefully, which is obviously not a take one can do if the warriors remained men. also its cool how swan stops the peace act when a.) the orphans seemingly act threatening to mercy ("mercy i'm losing my cool"), so swan, who doesn't know her, immediately jumps to her defense, and b.) when the orphans threaten harm to the warriors ("or we gotta rain down from you, from the rooftops"), causing swan the well-established pacifist to directly insult and attack them. i dunno i just think that's a cool take too that kinda foreshadows how the women are willing to take matters to their own hands once threatened rather than safely play to the tastes of men. anyways woo

[the-lonelyshepherd]

what’s your opinion on the travlottienat s2 sex scene

hi! um category five autism event and i got way too serious about this. however its not my problem.

oookay SO first off obligatory i am a minor BUT we are analyzing this from a narrative/plot perspective and not in a sexual way. theres naked people in art its fine. I think this scene is fascinating from like. not a shipping perspective but a character based one. it shows a lot about travis and it also shows a lot about lottienat (mostly talking abt the character combo and less the ship) and also jackie. yeah, jackie.

Madonna della Pietà, Michaelangelo

To start - even w how it looks, this is a Lottienat scene. Not even from a shipping perspective but because this scene SHOWCASES their "rivalry", the contrast in their characters and how they are perceived to the rest of the team (w Travis as a stand in for the team). It shows how they're both very present figures in the whole yellow jackets situation (shown through travis but can apply to all of them imo). Nat is there with travis. shes physical, shes providing. But lottie is also there spiritually, and against the norm, leading whats going on.

Nat as the physical

lottie as the spiritual.

so despite the fact that natalie is physically there, travis cant (probably physically cant as hallucinations are NOT voluntary) take his mind off lottie. because she can give him something, in his mind, that nat cant. Shes almost an escape - nat is the harsh reality hes living while lottie is the voice that brings him hope that his brother is alive. lottie is someone who can lead in a way that he wants to make sense. and its an idealized version of her in his mind, probably stemming from his issues w authority figures like his dad and the built up version of masculinity in his mind.

And this scene also emphasizes Nat’s role in the Javi situation. Because of this:

The wound on her leg where she faked Javi’s death so that Travis would stop his self-destructive search for his brother, who by all means should have been dead. Why? Because who is Nat but a realist? She’s gotten everything from life thrown at her and came out of it with that attitude, and who can blame her?

But this scene is right after she brings Travis forged proof that his brother is dead. Her guilt is present through this scene, and showing the wound is to emphasize that. layers!!! but travis has a lot of guilt throughout this scene as well - not only because of the supposed death of his younger brother that he as the older sibling feels at fault for but also… the jackie situation.

The Jacke of it all:

yeah this is a jackie scene. not only is it right before when they FUCKING EAT HER but like in spirit as well. Okay so the thing is that jackie is the character who puts the most emphasis on virginity, we all know this, but in the end it's travis that gets the "first time" that she puts so much emphasis on. Yes, jackie and travis lose their virginities to each other, but in this scene travis checks off doing it with his actual girlfriend. That, and he does almost the same thing jackie did with jeff. She looks to shauna's photo, travis thinks of lottie. They have to be outside of their bodies to perform because both of them have hangups (for one reason or another).

It's not that Travis doesn't want to have sex like jackie with jeff, he clearly tries, but he can't do it while thinking very clearly. First by being drugged, then by imagining himself doing something unrelated. And they would've been happier if they hadn't done it - jackie is immediately shunned for it. If you think about it, she literally dies for it. Travis feels like he cheated and did something wrong despite being drugged out of his mind and having no real control over the situation (something jackie didnt know). and then IMMEDIETLY after this scene, there’s the Jackie feast. Not only is she everywhere symbliocally, shes also physically in them now. THE JACKIE OF IT ALLLLL

The Pietà

The Pietà is a reference to the 6th sorrow of mary. for all you guys who arent christian/catholic →

The Seven Sorrows of Mary are seven significant moments in her life:

Simeon's prophecy of joy and sorrow.

The flight to Egypt to escape King Herod.

Finding Jesus in the temple after being lost.

Mary meeting Jesus on his way to crucifixion.

Witnessing Jesus' crucifixion and death.

Holding Jesus' body after his crucifixion.

Jesus' burial, which Mary mourns.

To clear things up here - lottie as mary in this context is not a “maternal” as in motherly way - imo its supposed to be peace and hope, guidance/authority. travis, despite being famous for his daddy issues, is hinted at having mommy issues as well (see: him not getting hugged goodbye by his mom in the pilot while his dad and javi both do)

also, he clearly struggles a lot w masculinity - having a woman in authority doesnt come naturally to him, but in this moment it is his only comfort.

so in the wilderness, there’s a complete power shift from the outside world. in this isolated environment there’s a female majority - specifically, the team, who already (roughly….. it gets messy but ykwim) trust and know each other. they already have a, albeit shifting, power dynamic established. in the normal, precrash, world, it would be isolated to them. but post crash, they are now the majority and the three guys left standing are now forced to assimilate into that instead.

Ben had power - he was one of their coaches and an adult - but with the death of coach martinez, he loses a lot of power 1) because he’s only an assistant 2) hes outnumbered 3) he doesnt want to be in charge of these insane girls anymore. he just wants gay daydreams. let him live.

Then there’s Javi - he’s younger, and none of the girls really know him, but they’re generally nice to him. he cant contribute much though - and eventually he has to contribute all he has - his literal flesh.

Finally travis - arguably the most involved as he is the same age as the team. this puts him on their field as “involved”. He originally has this very built up view of masculinity that you can tell stems from a place of self consciousness/ self loathing as well as a buildup of society’s expectations on him as a teenage boy in the 90’s. He’s supposed to be tough, hes supposed to be in charge, hes supposed to be better. And when hes thrown into this female dominated space it completely falls apart. He’s not the best shooter, he doesn’t have authority or leadership. The only other older male figures are dead or have tried their best to remove themselves from the situation. He has to completely reevaluate everything he knows - Travis has come to learn that there is power in being near and simply being an approximation of femininity.

Travis has come to learn that there is power in being near and simply being an approximation of femininity. Travis has gone from the top (he was never really there, but the built up idea of masculinity put him there in his mind, though even then he had doubts and it came from a negative place) and to bottom of the totem pole - and now he’s rising back up to somewhere in the middle by connecting with femininity, by recognizing women in authority, and also trying to have that hope and spiritual belief that is brought about by these female figures. The middle is where travis can reconcile with the weirder things (ive been in discussions about how travis actually parodies a lot of classic feminine tropes) that clash with what travis should be.

overall this scene is fucking insane. its lottienat its travnat its mommy issues its daddy issues its deadass jackie its an older brothers guilt its religious its a sin its deconstructing the very nature of yourself and those around you. all through the power of weird sex hallucination. and eating someone right after.

if youre still here i love you. please send me yellowjackets discussion asks i love them so much <3 feel free to ask questions and shit, also if none of this makes sense im sorry lmao.

ALSO. special thanks to @periwinklekryptonite who like carried this discussion and came up with like half of tjis. ask him about trans travis or travis in general or maybe pike. shoooo go send him travis questions.

[olivegardenhunter]

one thing that I find really really interesting is that in practically every scene where it's just jiraiya and tsunade alone, kishimoto very deliberately draws at least a panel of the two of them being completely silent in each other's companies, even refusing to look at each other.

when jiraiya got drinks with tsunade in og

when he got drinks with her before he left. notice that neither of them are making any eye contact, refusing to look at each other.

the iconic bench scene ofc

why this is important to me is cause I think it's an excellent way on kishi's part to show the dynamic and history between the two of them (and the sannin as a whole too). ((note this isn't a jiratsu post))

the few scenes we get of the two of them talking alone, you always get the impression that there's a secondary, entirely silent conversation going on in the background that only the two of them even know about. a conversation about all the things they cannot say. and he conveys that so well in these deliberate panels. you can SEE in their expressions, in the things that they do say when they choose to break the silence. there's so much between them, so much they yearn to say. and the weight of all of that, the depth of those feelings and emotions, is ultimately what makes them not say anything at all.

because you've known each other since you were SIX years old, you fought WARS together, this is a person you'd put your life on the line for without a second of hesitation. yet. there is a 20 year gap. you haven't spoken with each other for as long as you grew up together too. they've lived an entire lifetime together, but then an entire equally as long lifetime apart. they're the same person they've always been but yet... you can't really recognise the person in front of you. they both can see that they've become shells of the people they used to be. you both have gone through so much, and you know the the other person knows this. you know it so intimately, what things you can say, what things you can't. youre being so careful yet you both know there's this pretense going on.

there's so much left, yet so little. after all of that, what is there even left to be said? what CAN be said? they're already so intimately aware of what the other is thinking, there's nothing new, yet somehow, there's this gap. there's this emptiness that both know they can't really do anything about.

in the end, the sannin are a tragic trio. and kishi does an excellent job of showing this through their stories and histories, sure. but he does an even better job at showing it through their small interactions together. the way they always end up talking about the past, the attempt to bring up happier times (like tsunade trying to reminisce about their genin days as team hiruzen), yet how they ALWAYS come back to ultimately how they fell apart, and the world kept spinning, and all they can do is try to make sure the future doesn't make the same mistakes they did.

what can you even say to someone like that? it must've been so freeing, to have someone that understands them to such an extent. that would know them more than anyone else in the world ever could imagine. and yet. so suffocating. because they're a reminder. a reminder of what you used to be, a reminder of what could've been, a reminder of how everything went wrong, every single mistake you ever made. and so despite the person in front of you being the only person in the world that likely knows exactly how you're feeling, what you're going through, all your experiences, they're also somehow the last person you can ever speak to about any of it. because it becomes like a trap almost. they're constantly reminded of their pasts when they look at each other. how can you ever begin to move on with someone like that right in front of you?

once upon a time, they were the hope of konoha. they were the young shinobi, meant to bring in a new era of peace, meant to be the change. and they wholeheartedly believed this too. and then, to make it to 50, after everything they went through, and realising they were no better off than the generation before them. that everything they ever stood for, ever fought for, were all practically in vain. and how suddenly the people meant to be the change for the future can only hope to make sure there is still even a chance for change for the next generation.

really, what else are they meant to do around each other than continue their little dance or chess game and let the unspoken remain unspoken?

[strawglicks]

huge fan of the idea that flint cant handle what he dishes out.

they are too shy to be confrontational so as a result they let ppl walk all over them which i imagine results in pent up anger that they release thru talking shit behind ppls back .

and i get this impression from this exchange right here:

flint talking poorly of the satellites, followed by "oh no i shouldnt have said that" implies he KNOWS he shouldnt be saying it and will get confronted for it, further implying hes done it before. cosmo's rant also implies this is a common occurrence that, tbh, he is rightfully angry for. and most of the things he points out abt flint in said rant arent wrong at all.

flint can talk big all they want, but never to someone's face bc they cant handle the confrontation that comes with it. it's cowardly, there's no self-respect to be had there. its just flints attempt to feel confident/better abt themselves. and i really hope to see more of this aspect of his character, ESPECIALLY in canon since, apparently, this 1.3 blogpost isnt explicitly canon (which saddens me every time i think about it.)

btw i feel the need to add on that i dont think flint's wrong or lying abt the satellites. What I'm condemning them for is the fact they're talking shit but then cant handle the consequences. If ur gonna talk behind peoples backs and stir the pot, you should be able to say the same shit to their face as well. Cosmo certainly doesnt appreciate how flint views his boys, but i feel like even HE would have a little more respect if flint just had enough courage to say it to his face.

But they dont, because they look up to Cosmo and dont want to be on his bad side, making it even more difficult for Flint to be confrontational . he has no desire to start problems with cosmo HIMSELF, just the satellites. (ppl forget this and treat it like flint has issues with cosmo, but thats not true . flint admires cosmo, likely due to his confidence and leadership skills since its smth flint craves having for himself, and erasing that aspect is a HUGE injustice to a really fun and interesting dynamic !)

i feel like the detail that flint likes drama ALSO plays a part in all this. enjoys drama, probably watches it from afar, but the moment it involves him, hes a total coward lmao