#i'm not sure what part of us is anti endo

[shattered-system]

The “Redefinition” of Systempunk

Updated version!

We're not typically an essay kind of blog, but there's something l've been turning over in my mind since l've seen it.

I have the post pulled up now actually, and about 11 hours ago @/the-alarm-system "recoined" (stole) the term systempunk in a long post, as well as designed a flag with its own meaning and I want to sort through some of it.

I also have a few personal pet peeves about their flag design, given that it's color palette clashes and the flag is way too busy. I don't expect it to spread far given that it violates several rules of good design (saying this as someone who has been to school for graphic design.)

I will not post it here, because I don't care to spread it any more than this post already may.

Their flag slightly predates my own version of the systempunk flag, but given that theirs was created for a separate concept with a stolen name, I maintain that we were the first.

We begin with their definition of systempunk.

“A term or Subculture surrounding the liberation of plurals and the critique of psychiatry."

First issue lies here. Both the destigmitization of dissociative disorders and critique of the psych field are extremely important discussions to have!

But they are separate discussions. There is absolutely overlap, but combining the two here is kind of shooting yourself in the foot, because then the conversation in that tag will be disorganized.

Have a systempunk movement AND an anti-psych or psych-critical movement. That way people can easily find the relevant discussions and terms.

This is followed up with a bit about the harm the psychiatric field has caused (not delving into that as that's not what this blog is about) and then circle back onto "the future is plural."

This is not one of the instances where OP means it in the "the future is destigmitization" sense, as they are pro endo. (On a side note, even ignoring the endo use of the phrase-- if I need to read about a slogan to understand the meaning of the slogan, it's a bad slogan. The point of a slogan is to communicate a concept quickly.)

The flag has black and brown stripes akin to the progress flag to represent systems of color, which is the only part of the design we have no critique for, but are describing anyway just as a bit of information.

The purple stripe stands for:

“Endo solidarity... endogenic systems are continuously harmed by antis who remain uncritical of psychiatry."

Once again, we are mixing two expansive concepts into one term.

The term anti-endo doesn't imply a position one way or the other on the psychiatry discussion.

Some anti-endos swear by the DSM5, others don't. Anti-endo is a term that means anti-endo/ endo-critical. That is all it means.

There is a difference between holding the DSM as the complete authority on mental illness and saying that a trauma disorder is caused by trauma.

I'm not sure if OP knows that and is choosing to cast anti-endos in a bad light, or legitimately confused. However, OP is a syscourse blog who is on a lot of blocklists and is spammy in the tags, and has likely been blocked by anyone who isn't also out looking to pick immature fights. (This is a system who made a post in all caps calling for an endo raid on #systempunk.)

Continuing directly from the last quote:

“[Antis] are against the liberation of plurals and deny a plural future in order to push singlethood onto others."

It's possible OP is referring to final fusion, which the anti-endo community is not a monolith on either. Most people we've interacted with are supporters of functional multiplicity (including ourselves.)

Most likely however, they mean that anti-endos "push singlethood" by telling endogenics that they can't have a trauma disorder without trauma.

And I could go into a whole tirade about that, but dozens of systems have done it before and I doubt any pro-endos have gotten this far. I am writing this for the anti-endo and on-the-fence audiences.

Visit @antimisinfo's helpful masterpost for a list of legitimate sources.

OP seems to believe that by “forcing” this singlethood, we are contributing directly to the oppression of systems. Hypocritically, OP themselves are contributing directly to the oppression of trauma victims.

Endogenics are not part of the "diverse experiences of plurality” (we are diverse, but united in origin) given that they don't exist. And if they did, they would have such a fundamentally different experience than trauma-formed systems that both groups would need separate language and tags to have space to themselves.

And endos already have a well-established punk tag for themselves. It seems they won't be happy until they chase trauma victims out of every space they create for themselves and steal every term. They've already stolen even the medical terminology used for CDDs.

The yellow stripe of the flag is meant to represent those with actual CDDs. Once again, psych stuff is brought up. However, I do agree with OP that those who do not want final fusion should not be pushed into it.

The pink and white stripes of the flag are entirely dedicated to anti-psych points. I think this would do wonderfully on it's own flag. But bringing the large range of discussion the anti-psych movement encompasses and the large range of discussion the CDD community has into the same tags is going to make it monumentally difficult to find the conversations you're wanting to have, and weaken both communities considerably.

There is a line of barbed wire across the flag that is partially for the same anti-psych movement as well as in favor of protecting and defending endogenic "identities." The ampersand stands for plurality.

There are fangs on the flag as well, encouraging systems to be loud and proud about their existence. And I agree that systems should make themselves known. However, endogenic systems don't exist, and their promotion will continue to drag us down.

I have read testimonies about traumagenic (real) systems being fakeclaimed or denied treatment by healthcare experts who, through exposure to endos, came to the conclusion CDDs are fake entirely.

Real systems seeking treatment and help after a lifetime of horrific abuse are being denied care.

Not to mention the setback of social acceptance by endos.

“Force plural liberation down the throats of others. Force the future to be plural."

[sophieinwonderland]

Hi sophie (again) one really quick note, the reason i read through your ENTIRE blog is because my dissertation is on facetious disorders portrayed and influenced by social media and the likes of such- it is literally a 250 page document about people like you. It's literally a part of my research to read long-winded things like this and write about them. My livelihood revolves around this. I don't expect to see a Dr. before your name, but you can damn well expect to see it before mine.

The only reason I sent that ask and wrote a targeted post was to get a response from you. The only reason. Had some writers block lol, I needed some material 😅😅

Another note to add to the grooming part was not about LGBTQ or transgender people as I am both myself. Please do not take it as a jab to your gender identity, and I apologize if it came off that way. It was in no way meant to insult you in that regard.

First, thanks for clarifying about the use of grooming. I don't mean to suggest you did intend it as a remark about my gender identity.

But I do think it's important to note in a "you are not immune to propaganda" way. Because I think, consciously or unconsciously, anti-endos have adopted transphobic talking points.

I assume and hope that this is unconscious. That rather than looking at how conservatives have used these talking points to harm queer communities and going "yeah, we can use that talking point too with these people we don't like," this absorption and repetition of these talking points is happening on a subconscious level. In which case, I think it's important to understand where they've originated and what the history is behind them.

As well as what misusing these terms normalizes. Because repeating them does contribute to a culture that is okay with using "grooming" this way to associate people they don't like with child abusers.

Now, allow me to first commend you on starting work on your dissertation so early. Working on it at just 20 is quite impressive indeed.

Although I have to question the subject matter.

A factitious disorder is when somebody is faking a disorder or pretending to have a disorder. It seems strange that you would seek to use examples of people who do not actually have a disorder and are not claiming to.

Even if endogenic systems were lying, unless they're presenting themselves as having a disorder they weren't, they wouldn't qualify for criterion B.

If you do want to write about people who have plural experiences without having trauma or a disorder, you might want to actually read my studies and research page. I'm sure that you could find stuff there that could help you on your journey.

And if you plan on writing about tulpamancy, specifically, Dr. Samuel Veissiere's Variety of Tulpa Experiences is probably most useful in understanding the tulpamancy community and viewpoints on the practice.

I would also recommend Learning to Discern the Voices of Gods, Spirits, Tulpas, and the Dead, as it offers a great comparison between tulpamancy and other forms of non-pathological voice hearing.

I imagine that these studies are much more productive uses of your time than scrolling through over 11,000 Tumblr posts, and would look better as sources in your dissertation.

Finally, if you are committed to doing a dissertation on factitious disorder, I would highly advise learning how to spell factitious. Because it's not "facetious" disorders, and spelling it that way might look a bit awkward on your dissertation about factitious disorder.

[sysmedsaresexist]

I spoke with Colin Ross again.

The original post, for those who missed it.

This is going to be really disjointed and rough. I've been put in a really weird position and I want to just... talk about it. This is okay to reblog, I'm sure there's pro/endos that have been waiting for this. Unfortunately, it's going to be attached to a vent.

Sadly, talking to him brought up a lot of bad feelings. I'm still so sad to see so many people turn on me. I'm disappointed that there was so much pushback. I'm disgusted by people's hypocrisy.

People wanted to know why I wasn't posting my side of the emails to Colin Ross, they tried to say he didn't believe those things anymore.

So I emailed him again, recapping our previous conversations, and asking him if he still believed in non traumagenic plurality.

And he responded that he does.

I thought I could post it, and that would be the end of it. Proving we had spoken before, confirming the topics discussed. But in my email to him, I shared what I've been doing since I last spoke with him, what prompted me to reach out to him again. The same thing that stopped me from posting my side of the emails originally. I wasn't entirely honest with him, either. I don't think I would have gotten a response if I had talked about tumblr.

And I'm simultaneously so excited and so scared.

This is a man that, in a very vague sense, formed a mentor/professional relationship with me. Our interaction overall was brief, but it was exciting to discuss his work with him, ask him questions that had been bothering me-- I told him about myself, my educational and work background. I used my real email and name. My real school. He's Canadian, we talked about it. I shared real details of my life, and while it wasn't necessarily in confidence, I don't think he would appreciate knowing that I've shared his personal thoughts and emails on tumblr, of all places. I'm not lying or hiding anything in my side of the conversation.

I'm scared.

I'm terrified to post anything that could be linked to me. Even posting this, I'm like, "can people like... reverse edit my picture and get my email?" I genuinely don't know.

I worry about posting the full screenshots with his email, knowing people won't believe me if I don't, but not wanting to have these ridiculously immature people in his inbox. I have encouraged people since day one to find his email themselves and reach out. I figure that the only people who would put in that work are the people who genuinely want to learn.

But then I realized that there are people that could ruin the relationship I made with him.

People that could make it so that I can never contact him in this way again.

People could use this to find me, if they get Colin Ross talking. (The rational part of my brain says he's smart enough not to give someone else my name, but goddamn, some of you people are actually dangerous)

There are people that want to do that to me. People that hate that I even brought a professional into this conversation. And I get it. I sat on the original conversation for almost three years, remember?

It's really scary to admit you're wrong, that you've been close-minded and hardheaded. It's scary to confront your bias and actions.

But having him respond to me... I feel so lucky? Not that Colin Ross is a saint, but how often do you get to meet someone like him? How often do you have a chance to take advantage of a professional contact that seems willing and happy to have these kinds of conversations with you? Three years later and he remembered me. He took the time to answer me, again.

I don't want to fuck that up.

So I thought about reaching out to certain people, showing them the entire set of emails without any blockout and having them vouch for the authenticity.

Then I realized that I wouldn't trust any of you anti endogenic systems with any of my information after how you've all behaved.

And I realized that none of you are going to change your minds, no matter what I show you, and I'd rather to maintain my professional relationships than put any more effort into any of you.

And I know if I wait too long to post this, people will call it fake, so I either need to go ahead and make this post or just kind of let it disappear into obscurity.

It's so important, though.

Isn't it?

I can't tell anymore.

[anarchivalsystem]

System friends, what's the weirdest place you've experienced anti-endo stuff? A server for a certain game we ADORE recently added pk/tupper which, cool. Except they require you fill out a form to be allowed to use them or get the system role. And part of that, apparently, is you have to be a "real" system, as in traumagenic. Cant even support endo systems at all.

And this is like. THE server for the game, the creator's official announcements go there, this isn't a fan-made server. (The game is salyfaec - spelled the game title wrong on purpose bc I don't want issues with regular fans of the game etc.) I'm just. So sick of the mod team there & we only joined it for the SF emotes anyway. Kept announcement pings on bc the creator does merch giveaways & stuff but I hate getting mod announcements about how systems can use PK now but only the right kinds and it's not for roleplay and if you age regress you shouldn't be allowed on Discord til you're not anymore.

It's fine to have that be a rule for the server, as the mods were right that it shouldn't be their responsibility to interact with kids of any kind, even if our Little host is capable of masking & pantomiming being an adult, as an example. Fully fine with that. What I'm not fine with is being told that, based on what they said in their announcement on the matter, if we have a Little in front, or a regressed alter, etc, we shouldn't use Discord at all. Excuse you but if our syskids want to use our private server that only has our partner system in it, or the system server we have for ONLY close friends who actively help care for said kids, that we are breaking Discord TOS.

Bitch my ID says I was born in 1989 regardless of who's fronting & I'm pretty damn sure that's all Discord cares about so fuck you.

Again, this was all the mod team in the server. The game creator is like. Never there outside of the odd relevant announcement or giveaway, I have no issues with said creator. But fuck their mod team tbh.

[cddboxes]

⌦ Introduction ⎙

Welcome to cddboxes, another blog for doing userboxes for CDD systems, sysboxes how it's called

⌦ Requesting ⎙

Requests are always open!

You can submit various requests at the same time, the limit is four requests in un ask, but you can send multiple asks if you want

You can als specified if you want some specific characteristics in your userbox as a picture, a specific color, a specific font, etc. Just put it in the request and I'll do it

All requests would have varios alternatives such as: part/headmate/alter and system/collective, if you want another term to be used or a more specific one you can request it, but by default all the userboxs will have this variants

I won't be doing any request that's targeting someone, that's hateful and discriminative, nothing very explicit (I might do some NSFW ones if I'm ok with them) or something related to endo supporting, outside of this you can ask if I'm ok doing certain kind of requests if you're not sure if I'll fullfit it

⌦ Boundaries ⎙

This blog is CDD systems exclusive, so if you're not one please go off our blog and don't do requests because we'll delete them, we won't hesitate in blocking blogs and accounts for the safety of the blog and its followers (This rule applies to non CDD systems and singlets)

This blog is a safe space and isn't open with syscourse, discussion nor debate regarding system topics. There can be some userboxes that mention or a are aligned to this kind of topics but it's not a discussion blog, so please take that in mind

If it's necessary add the corresponding TW/CW in the top of the request, this is to make sure people won't get triggered and are aware form what they're seeing

DNI:

Basic DNI, non CDD systems, singlets, radical pro endos and anti endos, closed mind people, trans-id (Specially trans-plural), doesn't have system accountability, anti-recovery, syscourse blogs, say things like sysmed or traumascum, any kind of passive-aggressive people

The break of one of our boundaries will be an instant block

⌦ About the owner ⎙

You might see that this blog has a similar to almost identical aesthetic to the blog @syspport, this is because this blog might be considered a sub blog of that one specifically for all the sysboxes requests, so please make your requests here and not there regarding this topic and make sure to check out that account

This is just for userboxes, any other kind of help, support and requests about CDD systems you can totally do it there (Except coining terms/roles, you can do that requests in @myceliumforum)

This is all I have to say, thank you for reading and I'll wait for your requests to be done!

[kodyfae-the-1st]

A response, i guess

Alright so I saw this pretty shit post recently, and I cant help but say I'm a little pissed. I will not be sharing the name of the blog that posted this, as i do not wish for them to be harassed.

So here's my response.

An open letter to you who wrote this.

"Hating endos is lame, hate on us instead ! We’re a DID system that believes people shouldn’t have to have their own entry in the DSM5 to be respected , apparently a controversial opinion these days !"

So though i agree in part that hate is lame as all hell, i do believe that listening to science is more punk than throwing it out the window. Yes system diversity is important as a working point in the community, it is still important to listen to the science.

Though some may not fit the diagnostics 100% doesn't mean they aren't valid that is true, but even so, there have been no scientifically supported exception to one. trauma is a necessary part, and the mind cannot and will not fracture like this without it, that should be without dispute.

"Being unapologetically plural is punk, ESPECIALLY if you don’t fit the “scientific” idea of what a real system should be."

You are right that science is not all inclusive, but i will say being anti science seems pretty conservative for a self proclaimed punk. but asides from cheap digs like that, id really recommend reading a couple scholarly articles if you are ever in doubt of the science, there is a lot to learn, and a lot left to be learnt.

"Systems should support other systems regardless of where we come from. The world doesn’t understand us and they don’t want to have to understand us, if we want to have a future where we are proudly and loudly ourselves we have to work together to make it."

Yes systems should absolutely support each other, and i do feel we fight too much sometimes. And no. the world does not understand us, but that does not mean it is ok to spread misinformation. Im sure you do this with good intention, and i too do my part with good intention. but we are fundamentally opposed, and i do not wish to support endos in a journey for recognition.

Some may genuinely have it, i do believe that, and others may be suffering from something else, so similar it may be difficult to know the difference, but i do not believe that they can be systems without trauma.

"I have to fight to be accepted as gay, i have to fight to be accepted as polyamorous, I have to fight to be accepted as trans, I have to fight to be accepted as non human, I have to fight to be accepted as autistic, I have to fight to be accepted as plural."

A lot of us have fought those same battles, i at least have, and a lot of systems still fight for this, and i do not believe that it should be a thing everyone goes through. And we still fight to accept ourselves in this, But i do not support endos fight for recognition. But i will fight with all i have to get them the help they need, because a lot of them do desperately need help. and i think that the fight to give them a support system and help is much more punk than this fight to support misinformation.

"I do not want anyone to have to fight me to be accepted as who they are, I want to fight alongside them because we’re fighting the exact same battle and it’s hard enough without us stabbing each other in the backs."

There is absolutely too much backstabbing in these communities. And i am willing to fight here alone to get them help, im not saying here that they aren't systems, some may very well be and have forgotten the trauma, but i do not wish to stand beside them in a fight against science. Im sure we'll all know more in the future with more studies made, and maybe itll turn the view on systems upside down, but until then i stand with the science, and with those that want and need help.

I do though want to mention lastly that as per the dsm-5 trauma is not noted as a criteria for diagnosis, and thus i am open to read articles of exception to this rule if they can be provided from credible sources.

I will also ask that if ever i said something incorrect i hope youll tell me and ill do my best to make amends. Please do also feel free to share your opinion, id like to hear more perspectives, and learn the faults of my own.

Well wishes.

-Kody, and a very tired system

[endopropaganda]

so what I'm hearing about SAS is that you don't like or understand nuance, you're unwilling to find out the kind of info on their blog yourself, even if those resources could benefit you and your followers, so you're deciding to just turn a blind eye to it

Is that right?

It sounds about right and I'm disappointed, SAS does more for the CDD community than most other blogs

Block me if you want, but I'm not wrong, the only reason all of you (general you to refer to the large number of newer anti blogs), is because they corrected antimisinfo for misinformation, antimisinfo called them an endo, leaked their main, and then tried to cover it up by telling everyone to block SAS

But sure, keep them blocked, keep telling all your followers to block them

As I explained in a previous post, we are conflicted on them mainly due to CROSSTAGGING. Which, as i already mentioned, causes overstimulation for us due to our autism (Aspergers, which is an outdated medical term, to be specific)

Endo neutrals are on our DNI, and if this is nuance, then we have every right to block them due to that making them endo neutral, which is stated on our DNI. We had been considering taking that off our DNI, but in light of this, fuck no, we aren't doing that.

Not once did we tell anybody to block SAS. We said WE were going to block SAS. And not because of their stance specifically, but because we have gotten almost 15 asks with conflicting ideas about SAS and want to STAY OUT OF DRAMA.

The fact that the narrative you made out of this is "Oh my god, you hate nuance" is the exact reason this blog exists. We are NOT a syscourse blog. We are a blog dedicated to pointing out logical fallacies in screenshots. How something SOUNDS and how something ACTUALLY IS are two VERY DIFFERENT things, and you cant make an opinion solely on how it sounds to you. Not only that, but your making a critical assumption without really knowing anything about us prior, So far, the only members of the system involved in this situation are me (Mocha) and Magenta. Neither of us are the headmate that runs this blog. This blog isn't run by just one person, either. So you're making an assumption about not only 3 PEOPLE who run a blog, but also an entire system's opinion on a situation. An entire system who doesn't even know this situation is happening and I can GUARANTEE you would not have anywhere near the same response as me. No. I am not going to block you, unless you send another one of these spontaneous, anger fueled hate asks. Because then, I will care even less than I do now.

I (Mocha), as a low empathy protector, do NOT give a shit what you think of my host's blog. The only thing I give a shit about is when people make assumptions without sufficient information about the topic they are making assumptions about. I will be removing anon asks for the time being. Since this situation has caused Magenta several episodes. We will not be engaging in this situation further, and if any attempts by others are made to continue to engage, it will be ignored.

Thank you and goodnight.

-Sincerely, A very petty and pissed off Mocha

extra part to this post

[straydog-emojis]

What's Endo? Why are you anti Endo?

Here is a carrd that I feel like explains it well but also a small explanation of my own

Personally we see it kinda like that transable or transdisabled or whatever its called. DID / OSDD is a trauma disorder. Endo systems are systems who claim to form without trauma, just like how transdisabled people are people who identify as disabled without actually being disabled

Due to the fact that endo systems don't actually have this trauma disorder, they can spread misinformation (such as alter death, transferring/selling alters) and affect how actual systems are treated online and in person.

However on this account the anti endo thing isnt the main part of the account, so this'll be the only post like this. We just use the tag and have it in our DNI because its what makes us feel comfortable, so to any endogenic system / their supporters, please accept that and don't interact

Also sorry if some of this doesn't make sense, I'm trying to reread it and it seems fine but I'm not sure if I've made some of this confusing

[anti-endo-safe-space]

im anti endo and I hate that i gotta pretend I'm unaligned so I don't get attacked when in reality endos make me so mad

being a system fucking sucks for the most part. seeing the majority of system spaces infiltrated by "uwu friends in my head!!1!" endos is just so insulting. and then if I call out the romanticization of a debilitating disorder, I am called a "sysmed". it's so infuriating

sorry for the mini rant. I can't express my dislike of endos on my blog so I kind of just said what was on my mind here 😅

No sorries for mini rants, we're here for those!

That's why we created this, we get the frustration since we've had friends before we had to hide the fact we were anti-endo because they would've sent a wave of people after us to harass us

Being a system isn't a super fun thing. Is it SOMETIMES nice to have others here? Sure, there have been times I've felt so utterly alone that hearing one of the others reminded me that no matter what I'm not alone. But all the time? Hell to the no. But like you said, mention that and your a sysmed or, which we don't get, a giant bigot.

[cloverstarsys]

So I'm gonna just... idk talk

(Putting all this under a cut both bc it's long and bc syscourse)

So some new anti-endos have made their way into the plural tags. We've been mostly ignoring the syscourse stuff recently because it... admittedly isn't great for us, but I forgot just how cyclical and repetitive it is omg.

"DID is a trauma disorder!" We're not discussing having DID. We're discussing being plural. Just because you(/nay (probably)) don't acknowledge non-DID/OSDD/etc plurality doesn't mean it's not still there. This has been said hundreds of times, or at least that's what it feels like

"Hearing voices is common!" Hey, at least this is a new one. Not sure where it's coming from, though. I mean, yes, some level of it is common, but it really depends on the level. And this talk of DID being uncommon is all dependent on the statistics of how many people actually are diagnosed with DID, and that's not a very solid number. There's not one concrete number of, this percentage of people have DID. Psychologists don't know. All the numbers out there are estimates, and also, dependent on diagnoses. Not everyone gets diagnosed. And all this is assuming DID is the only form of plurality, which it's not!

"Sourcecalls are anti-recovery!" ...???? Seriously, what? At the heart of a sourcecall is a fictive (or factive) looking for those who they know from their source, looking for someone who might share similar experiences to them. I don't see how that's an issue. To be fair, the person who posted this seems to believe alters aren't separate from the "person", like, at all. And I'm getting to this.

"Sub/sidesystems are impossible!" OK look, I have no clue how subsystems work, but I'm going to err on the side of "people say it's something they experience, so I will believe them for now" because I believe in NOT EVERYTHING HAS TO BE PROVEN WITH FLAT FACTS IN ORDER FOR IT TO EXIST (sorry, I'm getting heated) everything, before it's proven, still exists. Gravity existed before the first theories about it. Etc etc. And who knows, there might be scientific proof of it out there that i just havent found. And when it comes to sidesystems, as far as I know, it's mostly just a separate group of headmates. How is that impossible?

"Alters aren't separate from you!" This post comes from the view of, alters are parts of a whole personality that could have been there had trauma not occurred that caused the disorder. And while yes, that is technically what alters are in a DID system, I don't think it's a bad thing to think of them as separate. Even if scientifically they're not (which I haven't seen any proof of, by the way, but, honestly, there's so little research on plurality it might be hard to come by or just not exist yet. So look above for my opinion on believing people about their lived experiences without scientific proof yet) I don't see how it could hurt to think of your alters as separate people. One of this person's other posts also claims the reason they're not separate "scientifically" is because new alters cam inherit memories. I'm sure that's true, but I don't see how that means they can't be separate people (to the extent allowed by a single human brain, I mean). And they do say at the top of another post that you can *see* your alters as separate people and that doesn't change the "facts" (those "facts" being "alters aren't headmates" (are those not just two different terms to define the same thing?), "alters aren't separate" (well, yes, to an extent, but alters can be significantly more separate than this person is claiming), and just pretty much claiming parts. And while using parts language is entirely valid, do whatever you want, forcing it on others is not. If someone doesn't want to refer to their alters as parts of themself, then they don't have to) but that doesn't change the actual facts of we have no fucking clue what's going on in the brain half the time and significantly more research is needed on non-disordered plurality. Anyways.

I need to get ready for school now, because this post has taken me almost an hour to write lol.

There's no sources for anything I've said, not because they don't exist, but because this was mostly me shouting into the void to help dispel the feelings seeing these posts gave me. There are so many blogs that provide genuine sources and all that, plus individual research is always an option. But even if there isn't research proving something (or disproving it), I'm going to lean on the side of believing peoples lived experiences.

It's always so funny, seeing so many blogs that claim to "correct misinformation" that literally just spread misinfo themselves. I think I've seen... one blog that actually corrects misinfo and isn't biased (either towards or against endogenic systems, just looking at the facts (which, believe it or not, tend to prove non-disordered/non-traumagenic (yes I'm aware those aren't the same thing) systems are real)).

Although I think the reason so many anti-endo sources can be so easily disproven is because they're all talking about DID. we are not talking about DID. you cannot conflate all plurality with just DID.

Ok, I really have to get going now.

(Unless you're really respectful about it. I'm allowing a discussion here right now, don't ruin it by being a dick.)

(Banners by @/lunaridae)

[sophieinwonderland]

It sucks to want to support your posts because when you get told by your supporters that something you did hurt them or didn't help or hurt a whole group of people it always has you saying "I'm sorry you felt that way" or "I'm sorry it came across like that", it never feels like you're sorry for what you've said, it's always that you're sorry people took you, someone who says they speak facts and wants to disprove lies, as being truthful when you say things. You basically blame your supporters for thinking you mean something fully when you often do.

It's hard to even believe you didn't just say sorry because it upset a fan, I like your stuff, I really do, but when the ONLY reason you "realised it was hurting people" was when a supporter told you, it's a bad sign. People were telling you there were issues before that, both anti-endos and people who had NO part in system-topics at all, you were told it triggered and upset people, you ONLY listened when it was someone who said they were a supporter, no one else got the point across to you? How does that happen? and the most you can give was "it was meant to upset anti-endos"? How is that a good excuse? If an anti-endo can disprove something you say fully (like even you can see you were wrong, by mistake or something), is that to be ignored because you dislike anti-endos? Even if they disprove something totally unrelated to endos? That is bad. Awful actually. It makes me not want to trust you when I can't even know if you even look at both sides in any way, now I look at your posts and wonder if you've cut context or made something up just to "upset anti-endos" like everyone says anti-endos do to endos, instead of because you can actually prove they're wrong. This isn't how I want to feel, but you make that SO hard when you won't even agree wholeheartedly that what you said was actually just wrong and it wasn't people "feeling the wrong way about it".

Like that's not even a hard thing to agree to, it never had to be a long "I'm sorry, I'm an awful person" kind of thing, you never even had to say sorry to anti-endos at all. But the fact you wouldn't say "I'm sorry" without an "that you felt that way" really just sucks dude. It sounds like you don't mean it at all, because you're passing the blame to people for being upset at you, not because you did something wrong.

This clearly isn't an attack, it's a fan who truly wants to see you actually learn that, although saying "sorry" IS good and what you should do, how you say it says a lot about you as a person and makes people feel ways when it isn't done with the respect that they think should come from you.

I like your stuff, it's good, it's well-researched and well-written, and I'm sure MANY of your other fans feel the same, but the part that makes us love your stuff so much is why we were so disappointed in your apology; it wasn't even well-written, let alone well-researched.

If none of that gets to you, just think about how you actually upset and hurt people, anti-endos, endos, people who are trying to learn, people who don't even know what an endo is, and so on, you upset tons of people, for what? A "gotcha" at anti-endos? Why would that ever be worth the hurt? Why can't an actual apology be offered? That's stuff I was wondering when reading your apologies, and that sucks.

Overall just hope you can learn, because this never should have happened in the first place, let alone ended with such a poor apology.

I wish you luck and I do hope to be able to keep supporting you, just wish an effort could be made to make your fans feel like they're not even allowed to tell you when you fuck up.

Tell me, do you ever get sick of it all?

How long have you been involved in syscourse? For me, it's been close to 3 years. Practically since the first time I got posted to r/systemscringe for making a post on r/tulpas about how we used kissing to trigger me to front. (We stopped because a happiness trigger was too unstable and I started switching in when we weren't wanting me to.)

3 long years of watching people I care about be bullied and harassed. 3 long years of facing that myself. Maybe that doesn't sound like much but for me it feels like a lifetime.

I thought coming to Tumblr, I could share information and be compassionate, and change people's minds.

Did it work?

A little bit. Here and there. Between all the harassment campaigns and hate sent my way, I know I changed some minds along the way.

But there's been so much hate directed at us. I've watched so many people get hurt. And I've tried to stop it. Tried to fight back. But it always keeps coming.

We get some wins. We change some minds. We make a difference. I don't want to minimize our successes because there are plenty.

But more anti-endos keep coming. More keep spreading hate.

And more of us keep getting hurt. Over and over and over again.

So we go through years of this, culminating into Aspen's invasion of our tags and them passing posts around literally calling for death to the endos of Tumblr. And the anti-endo community largely did nothing. They said nothing.

And it wasn't a small post nobody saw either. It was a huge picture with 60 notes. It was posted in their tag. How messed up is that, that so many anti-endos liked and shared that, passing it around, and the community remained totally silent?

And while I wouldn't advise going into people's DMs to try to get them to change their minds by telling them anti-endos nearly bullied your friend to commit suicide, the fact that their responses when someone has done that have been come variation of "we don't care actually, LOL" has been disheartening to say the least. Because it drives home a central fact... that many of these anti-endos simply don't care if we die.

Many, I think, would genuinely be happy if I was dead.

And then there was the SAS drama. I definitely would never claim to have done this for SAS. Even without asking or seeing their opinion, I'm sure SAS would hate what I did. But it's more that the whole incident showed me just how few morals this current batch of anti-endos have. That they would dox an account that's not connected to being a system at all, one that's followed by people who know SAS in real life, and when called out they ALL defended it and stood by AEV. IIRC, AEV's own response when called out was saying that some people don't deserve privacy!

All their followers stood by this. All defended them. I looked so hard in this current batch of anti-endos to see even one who would condemn this. One who might restore a bit of faith that their community wasn't just assholes and bullies. And I found nothing.

So... I forged my words into a blade. Because after 3 year of fighting with people, you get to know their insecurities. Their fear of abandonment. Their desperate need to cling to everything and terror of it being ripped away from them. Their self-loathing, because a small part of them does know they're the bad guys. You can't hurt people constantly and spread hate, day after day, without that doubt slipping into your mind.

So I took all of that and forged it into a blade that was meant to... maybe... make anti-endos feel a fraction of the pain they've caused our community. Or at least turned a blind eye to pain their friends were causing us.

The reason I won't offer a full apology is because... I don't want to lie like that.

You say you can't trust me to be honest. But if I told you right now that I regretted my entire post and wish that I could take the whole thing back, that I was deeply sorry for it all... that would be the real lie. I would be saying it to make this whole thing go away and placate people who are mad at me, but I wouldn't feel it.

In my apology, I believe what I said was that I'm sorry it came off that way. Maybe this sounded like I was blaming them, but I was trying to apologize for phrasing it in a way that was interpreted like it was, when that's not how I meant it.

I do regret that the way it was worded triggered delusions. If I were to reforge my blade, I would have made it differently to be more clear and hopefully avoid that. Because my blade was designed to cause a specific sort of fear and hurt and pain, and that wasn't it. And so for that one part I really am truly sorry and feel it went too far.

But... I don't regret telling them that their loved ones would leave them. I don't regret telling them that their therapists will turn pro-endo. I don't regret telling them that they would be pushed out of their fandoms and communities.

I was even grateful to endogenic-cringe for delivering and swinging my blade for me, because it wouldn't have been able to reach as many anti-endos without their help. So many of the anti-endos who were affected by my post only saw it because of them. They made such a great accomplice.

Maybe that makes me a bad person.

But I'm what I've been made by dealing with three years of hate. And worse, three years of watching other people endure it and be broken down by it. I hate, so much, watching people in this community be constantly bullied and abused just for their system being different. Or even just being inclusive to different systems.

You know... I can finally sympathize with Hyaena-Bites. (Wonder who all here has stuck around since that drama?) I mean, I still think the blog was too close to harassment and I don't like that it targeted non-syscourse-related positivity posts. And I don't like that it reblogged those posts just to say horrible things, thus promoting the hate they pretended to fight against in the tags. But I understand the impulse behind it.

There was a girl who had faith in people and made a blog with a big dream, who was convinced that anti-endos were just not educated and that with enough sources, enough evidence, she could change their minds. And the bits of that girl that believed those things have died bit by bit every day.

They've systematically killed all the parts of me that were stupid enough to believe in them.

So seeing the sysmeds get hurt... I'm satisfied. There have been small moment where I start to feel a shred of guilt, but then I remember every system I've seen bullied by them. The systems who have been sent into derealization spirals from fakeclaiming. The systems who have been constantly told to kill themselves for being different. And at this particular moment... I'm thinking of the corpse of my naive faith in anti-endos to be decent people. Because I do mourn for that part of me they killed. Even if its death was necessary to make me see things more clearly.

So this is my vengeance for it all.

Is it productive? Probably not.

Is finally giving anti-endos a real taste of their own medicine for once going to result in blowback because they can actually have a real reason to pretend to be the victims? Maybe.

But their harassment only seemed to be ramping up anyway even before this.

You can do with this what you want. If you don't think you can support me and want to unfollow, that's totally valid. Especially if you think following this blog might be unhealthy for you. I completely understand that and respect what you decide.

But I'm not going to lie and apologize for something that I truly don't regret.

I'm sorry that I worded my post, that was meant to hurt anti-endos by preying on their deepest fears and insecurities, in a way that accidentally triggered delusions. And that's it. That's the full extent of what I can honestly say I'm sorry for without lying to you.

If you do decide you can no longer support me and the person I've become, I sincerely wish you the best on your way. I appreciate all the support I've gotten from my followers over the years but I would never ask any of them to stand by anyone, including myself, if you thought they were bad for you or unsafe.

[antiendovents]

I run a MOGAI blog with the other host in our system (we have two hosts, me and them, and they exist to handle the more light hearted and jolly stuff, while I handle all the more serious and less cheerful parts of life), and while I'm anti-endo, they lean more towards being pro-endo and it makes running the blog (and everything really) tough.

They're not extremely pro-endo, but they fear getting in trouble for allowing the "bad" systems to interact so they really want to make a DNI and essentially exclude people with my opinions, simply so they're accepted. I obviously am not comfortable with that. This applies for Discord and all system spaces too, and the only solution we've found is simply pretending we're a singlet. I don't know what to do, the entire system doesn't agree on this topic. I've considered making a separate blog just for me and any other anti-endo alters to use but I feel like that would just make the situation worse internally

Ahh, that sucks. I'm sorry you have to deal with that. I'm honestly not sure what exactly I could say to help, but if pretending to be a singlet helps then go ahead. You don't have to admit your status as a system / your disorder to anyone. I know you said it might make it worse, but I'd say maybe at least try making another blog? If it would be more comfortable it might be good to try, if it doesn't work out then that's fine too.

[neurotheascars]

First of all, no idea why this post had reblogs turned off but Ill respond here. Original post this for those who need context is here.

@fawna-lariat

First lemme get something out of the way:

You don't HAVE to do anything. You saying that just gives me the impression that you're a negativity chasing alter because that's exactly what I say when I'm thirsty for a fight.

Just because you know already that I probably won't agree with you doesn't mean I'm not listening. Word of advice- Get it out on your own blog. I'm only going to respond to you because you are being civil. But your attitude is grating to me because it feels like you didn't read a lick of the post you're commenting on.

I'm not a fragmented piece of a whole. I am a complete entity. It is extremely upsetting and triggering to keep hearing people insist that being an alter means you broke off of something. That's certainly a way for alters to form but it's not the only way and I'm tired of having "parts language" forced on to me. I know what I fucking am. I am a separate person. If you don't think I am you are denying my lived experience and ignoring the way a trauma victim literally exists. Parts language actually kept my system from healing so please fucking stop carrying that outdated claim about "shattered self" around like it's fact. It's not a reality for every system and I know more than one therapist that believes it is harmful to just assume a system is just one person broken into parts.

I'm pretty sure I've seen the sources you're talking about but there are other sources that contradict what you're saying too. My therapist honestly thinks being anti endo is a really misinformed stance in general if you need to hear that. You could really have your pick of information that proves your position is extremely narrow minded but I think you're comfortable and not going to do anymore research until you stumble upon it. You also don't seem to understand the real life context of what these studies actually prove or don't prove either.

You can send me that source, but I don't have the mental capability to comb through and properly refute claims in the manner that people like sophie and SAS do. I'm on mobile and I can't use tabs.

I've also already read a lot. I made a post a while back saying I was done with syscourse. I've also done a lot of research on entity creation techniques and parapsychology. I have 13ish years of experience on the topic and I know that mainstream psychology is only just now catching up to the reality of it all. I don't have the energy to entertain people who get dogmatic about mental health because I've deep dived in a way I can bet you haven't.

You aren't going to change my mind simply because you demonstrably don't know what I know.

Bottom line, you're talking to an alien who knows too much about this. And as a system who deals with all the dissociation and BS that comes with a did diagnosis, who was helped by created entities when we finally learned about the trauma, I frankly don't care if endos are in my community because it really really doesn't fucking matter.

Ive met cringey endos I don't like, but they don't "flood in to ruin my community" because I can block them without making them feel unwelcome and I want them to feel welcome because I don't know who they are or what they've been through. I don't know who might see me treating them poorly, and every system I'm ever met has been afraid of not feeling "valid" enough and gee I wonder why that could be when anti endos are drawing hard lines about how a system can form and behave.

And the thing is endos do know what being plural is like. Your belief that they don't isn't even a claim that can be backed with science. You're just making a sweeping generalization about what you think strangers understand. That's why I really dislike anti endos. The constant assumptions make my blood boil. I can't deal with that on the regular.

But regardless of anything you're saying about the distinction between tulpas and alters, endos are actually safer in the event of trauma occurring because their system hasn't had to deal with trauma to become organized. They have the option to be an organized system before trauma hits and are better for it because of their multiple consciousnesses.

That is just one unique way for a system to present and it's completely valid. If you think tulpas are real, but not alters then you should know that it's pretty easy for them to become alters. This is what happened to my IRL partner system. I'm not going to share their trauma story, but they are a group of tulpas that came from a paracosm that experienced trauma and now have to deal with all that extra stuff.

See you don't even realize it, but you're claiming my partner both doesn't understand what being plural is really like and that his alters aren't actually alters because he made them. Which, based on my lived experience with them, just isn't true. I don't need a peer reviewed paper to believe the lived experience of people right in front of me and that's why I don't agree with you. These studies never really concretely prove total absolutes and they don't claim to.

In fact its so easy for created alters to get all that extra trauma related dissociation with how stressful this shit world is that this distinction you're making really doesn't fucking matter in the end and only alienates people who are indeed trauma victims who might need support either now or in the future.

If you guys care so much about trauma victims why are you so hellbent on getting upset at and insulted by people who you literally don't know could be trauma victims. And if they aren't, a split consciousness configuration literally is the brain's way of dealing with trauma so tell me why it's so bad to be metaphorically holding the fire extinguisher in hand when the fire happens instead of having to run and break glass to get to it when you actually need it.

I truly don't think you know what you're talking about and saying that tulpas are real but they don't "count" as alters sounds like some highschool shit. I don't think you grasp that endos can have trauma separate from the origin of their alters and it's actually not your business if they do or not. It's only that their trauma isn't the cause of their alters. They may still have trauma that their alters help out with. I would agree that having a fragmented sense of self definitely makes it easier to create alters, but it doesn't mean you can't without the trauma.

I remember reading in a lot of grimoires and books on spirituality that anything that involves things like lucid dreaming, hedge crossing, and entity conjuration is easier for those who have been through an "ordeal". "Magic" and tulpamancy is easier if you've been through some life ruining shit. Thats all this claim that "created entities don't stick around in an unfragmented mind" means to me

Like yeah duh it's gonna take more effort to keep them there if you don't have your "head cracked open" as some spirit workers used to say.

The fact that I have witnessed with my own eyes what you say is impossible means to me that your science is incomplete.

Again, nobody is insulting you by simply existing and a lot of them do know what it's like to be plural.

[cddcommunity]

◜Endo Syscourse Pt.1◝

When you hear/read the word "syscourse" what's your first thought? Probably is gonna be endo or the endo fight, isn't it? The endo stances (Pro/Neu/Anti)... Probably is also gonna be the only thing you think of when hearing/reading the word

A big problem the syscourse community has is the modification of the term "syscourse" for their own thing, and that's stupid, isn't more easy to just add one word more? Like I did in the title?

For those who are unaware syscourse is the mix between system and discourse meaning syscourse is a term for all the discussions related to systems and the system/CDD community... But we have a problem here

ALL THE SYSCOURSE TAG AND POSTS ARE FILLED WITH ENDO SYSCOURSE

I get it, the endo discussion is part of the syscourse topic, is one of the many discussion topics that can be brought in syscourse, I'm not against it, I think is ok for someone to do endo syscourse if they want to... But they had to modify and change everything about it?... Really?

Syscourse isn't just endo discussion, it's a lot of things to discuss, did you know that? Did you know that a term that mixes discussion and system is for all the system discussions that can appear?

When I search in the #syscourse tag the only posts that I found are related to endo syscourse, I passed minutes trying to scroll down the tag hopping to find some posts non endo syscourse related but from another syscourse topic

I'm not against endo syscourse, but can we please stop saying the endo syscourse is the only syscourse in existence? I want to discuss system topics but I have no way of finding it out because of the tag... And when I found syscourse topics they're not tagged as syscourse, when I try to tell the OP that the topic they brought out a syscourse topic they usually get mad or deny the fact because the post "Is not about endos"...

That's how much damage this whole endo fight has become, it's not only eating the community (The topic of my next post so stay tune) but is also keeping people away from the real meaning of terms they normally use just for a fight

I need people to understand, I need the three communities (System, CDD and syscourse) that syscourse isn't just endo fight, is a very complex category for a lot of discussions that can be happening within the CDD community

You don't have to stop doing endo syscourse, but please do not claim endo syscourse is the only type of syscourse that it exists. It might help people to expand their tags to "endo syscourse" to not fill out the general syscourse tag with endo syscourse because it's really hard to almost impossible to find another syscourse topic that isn't endo

What do you think about this? Anything you'd like to my post? Please go ahead and share your opinions and thoughts about this! /nf

If you don't have an idea of what syscourse might be outside the endo syscourse here's a list of some syscourse topics that I can remember and name:

Cultural appropriation and closed names

Integration: Is the final fusion the only healthy goal? Is functional multiplicity bad/anti-recovery? (There's more but, you get my idea)

Introjects attachment to their sources (The amount of sub-topics and discussion can begin from this is... A lot)

Relationships in-sys (Any kind of relationship)

Trans alters

I'm sure there are more syscourse topics, but I can't name them all, you can add more in reblogs/comments if you like

[banesberry-anomoly]

sorry about this,,, (about sending another ask,,,,)

what are endos and anti endos? i USED to be an anti endo but now i dont know if im anti endo or not.

- @ieaturanium

Sorry this took so long to answer, I was dealing with some other stuff and didnt wanna shortchange an explanation!

So, I'm a mixed origin system and I mainly identify that way because 1. were not entirely sure what the original reason for us becoming a system was, and we think it was multiple things that contributed to it, and 2. We have headmates from all sorts of origins due to being a very large system

And really it can vary! Some endo systems dont remember their trauma, but this isn't true for all of them and assuming can lead to them either trying to dig up trauma that they may not be ready to face or a headmate causing trauma for the system out of spite to prove a point. Ive heard of this happening many times, the former more so than the latter, and its very harmful when anti endos try to push and convince endos that 'Oh you just dont remember your trauma but I still think youre valid!' because of said reasons.

Some may caused by something that could be considered trauma (because trauma is nuanced and varies from person to person, it all just depends on how the brain reacts to something) but because of the nature of what it is the person either doesnt consider it to be trauma for whichever reason or feels more comfortable identifying as an endo sys. Stressgenic is one of those examples.

And then some may just not be caused by trauma at all, like willogenic systems or people that have 'artists muses' (aka their characters will write themselves or talk to them). There are many forms of plurality because it is a wide and varied experience, and not all of them are talked about. Artists muses tend to be the most common example. But not everyone knwos about or wants to self identify as plural, and thats totally fine!

Something I need to put an emphasis on is endo systems can still *have* trauma, and it could still cause headmates to form/split/etc, it just wasnt the original cause of their becoming a system. Just because someones an endo system doesnt automatically make them immune to experiencing traumas in the future that may or may not affect their plurality.

A lot of systems may have been affected and caused by their neurodivergence in some way, like us with our autism and wildly untreated BPD, and we had a lot of ""non standard"" trauma when we was younger which would probably get us fakeclaimed regardless. We dont feel comfortable fully identifying as traumagenic though for various reasons, including how toxic some of the community can be

The anti endo community doesnt only target endo systems, theres a lot that also target pro endo traumagenic systems for the same reasons. "Endos are hurting Traumagenic systems!!!!!!!" but then they go after those that support endos and its like wow, way to support the people you claim to protect. Ive seen traumagenic systems get their own trauma fakeclaimed and called an endo system as a 'justification' for getting harrassed

Endo systems have been fighting for the system community for *years*, dating back to around the 80s or 90s iirc, and so many terms come from endogenic parts of the community (like fictive and factive are two prominent examples!). Endos and pro endos provide sources in internet arguments arguing about their existence only to be ignored or told 'THOSE SOURCES ARENT VALID SOURCES!!!!!' even when theyre medically backed studies

Ive also seen anti endos argue on The Future Is Plural! posts because they think they want more children to be traumatized. This is not anywhere near case or point, which is to fight for more plural acceptance and make it a safer environment for people to explore their own plurality without getting harrased or judged for it

And just to clarify, I dont mind endo neutrals or people willing to learn interacting with me, as Im willing to help educate how I can! Just be respectful and anyone falling under those categories can stick around ^_^^

[acorpsecalledcorva]

There is one aspect of being a system that matched being trans for me, to a T (ha..ha..)

And that's realising that no one could stop me from being them. I don't need someone to let me, or tell me I'm allowed to be this way. I could just..be. I could accept what I am and do the things that I wanted or needed to do with that

Like a cat whose brought into a new home, cowering in the safety of the cage I've been placed inside, slowly sniffing at the open bars, dipping my toe beans onto the carpet to make sure the floor isn't covered in cucumbers, and accepting that the only thing keeping me inside my cage is me.

And to my poor traumatised mind this was still terrifying, because any moment now I'm gonna get caught and hit with a broom or sprayed in the face with water for ever daring to think I have agency. It would be my fault if I did, I know the rules

1) Only be what others expect you to be

2) Shut the fuck up and never complain

3) jhffyjbdsghitfbjiesvswtikvfehhddbye (this rule will never be explained to you but you WILL be punished harshly for breaking it. See rule 2)

When I realised that I could just take HRT if I wanted to, on my terms, and be in full control of my dosing and regimen. I could change my name and dress how I want and use whatever pronouns I want.

When I realised that I could actually listen to the voices in my head, get to know the parts of myself I'd kept hidden and let them come forward to experience the world. I could go by more than one name and use multiple pronouns.

Both of these felt like faking. Like I was doing it on purpose. And that's because not repressing required active effort, I had to make a decision to do this, and making decisions for myself wasn't allowed. Now the cats out of the cage though, good luck trying to shove it back inside.

Systemscringe and fakeclaimers and staunch anti-endos aren't mad that you exist, they're mad that you let yourself out of your cage, that you're visible, that you take up space for yourself. "A REAL system doesn't talk about their experiences publicly. A REAL system doesn't feel proud of who they are. A REAL system stays hidden and tries to blend in at all costs. A REAL system doesn't break Rule 3"

Fuck that noise. Stay safe. Stay vigilant. But let your freak flag fly my pretty kitties 😻